§
Resolution reported,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the transference of the respective powers and duties of the Scottish Board of Health, the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, and the Prison Commissioners for Scotland, to Departments of Health and Agriculture and a Prisons Department for Scotland, and to make further provision with regard to the office of Chairman of the Fishery Board for Scotland and other offices in Scotland, and with regard to the Public Registers, Records, and Rolls of Scotland, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of (a) the salary of a Keeper of the Registers and Records of Scotland, and (b) of the salaries of clerks in the office of the Principal Extractor of the Acts and Decrees of the Court of Session.
Resolution read a Second time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed,
§ "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ Mr. JOHNSTONI think we ought to have an explanation from the Secretary of State for Scotland as to the amount of money that he expects to be saved as a result of this Measure. I know it is out of Order to discuss the details of the Bill, which have already been discussed on Second Reading, and we shall have further opportunities of discussing them in Committee, but we have never yet had from the right hon. Gentleman the slightest indication of the amount of money that he expects to be able to save to the nation as a result of the alleged 1088 economies in this Bill. Indeed, the more this Bill is examined in Scotland by persons well qualified to know the facts, the less does it seem to be likely that there will be any possible saving, and there are people who estimate that the net result of the Bill will not be to produce what is called a diminution in cost, but will be to add some net charges to the Exchequer. If the right hon. Gentleman has any idea of what can be saved by the change, for instance, in the Prison Commission—
§ The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. William Watson)That is not included. This Resolution only applies to the salary of the new Keeper of the Registers, and, secondly, to the salaries of the staff in the Extractor's Department.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONI should like to be quite clear that the first two Clauses of this Financial Memorandum attached to the Bill are not to be discussed to-night, because, if so, I must confine myself to asking for an explanation as to the savings, if any, that are expected to be effected under Clause 4 and subsequent Clauses of the Bill.
§ The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour)It is quite clear that this Resolution deals only with two points. The first is that there shall be a salary provided for the new Keeper of the Registers and Records in Scotland, who will in future be head of the Records Department. I cannot say what amount that salary will be at the moment. It will have to be decided eventually in consultation with the Treasury, and so it is impossible now to say what amount of saving will be made, but it is clear that there is the abolishing of one post at present carrying a salary of £1,200, and it may well be that some appreciable saving may he made under that particular head. In any case—
§ Mr. KIRKWOODDid I hear the right hon. Gentleman aright that he did not know what was going to be the salary of this individual who is going to be appointed in charge of the registers?
§ Sir J. GILMOURI do not know at the present moment what the exact amount of the salary will be. That is a matter for arrangement with the Treasury when the appointment comes to be made after the Bill becomes law, and all that I am saying is that at present 1089 there is going to be a combination of the duties at present held by three separate holders of these offices, namely, the Deputy Clerk Register, at £1,200, the Keeper of Sasines, at £1,000, and the Keeper of Deeds, at £500, and it is quite conceivable, therefore, that there will be some saving to the Treasury. The other point dealt with by this Resolution is with regard to the staff of the Extractor, who now, instead of being paid as they have been by the Chief Extractor, will become servants of the State, and pensionable. The advantage to the clerks and the staff of the Extractor will be very material, and I do not doubt that that will meet with the approval of hon. Members opposite.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONUnder Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill the right hon. Gentleman will be compelled to appoint a civil servant to do the work that presently being done by a board. That will, I take it, involve a charge on the Exchequer.
§ Sir J. GILMOURNo. The present charges are provided for by Votes coming before this House, and they will continue to be provided on those Votes in the ordinary way.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONUntil they are supplanted.
§ Sir J. GILMOURNo; when they are supplanted.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODI want to oppose this Resolution. The Secretary of State for Scotland said he is going to engage certain men to fill high positions in Scotland, but he has not yet made up his mind, and has not yet got from the Chancellor of the Exchequer what wages he will pay those men. I leave it to the House to say if ever this happened before, if ever an intelligent man in charge of a Department, or, say, a manager in charge of a works, advertised for certain individuals to execute certain work for him without his having made up his mind what wages he was going to pay Is that not proof that the Secretary of State for Scotland is not fit for the position that he occupies? Tories may think not, but the Labour party is satisfied that we could supplant him to-morrow by the right hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. William Adamson). I am going to 1090 ask my colleagues to go into the Lobby, and, if possible, we will vote them out of office.
Mr. WILLIAM ADAMSONI would like to reinforce the point that has been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston). We are told in the Financial Memorandum that the object of the Bill is primarily efficiency, but that the change should also be conducive to economy, and should permit some changes in the staffs, particularly in regard to the Records Office, without an increase in the total cost of the Department. With a statement of that kind in the Financial Memorandum, surely the Scottish Office and the Treasury must have gone into the matter to a certain extent. The Secretary of State has told us that this Memorandum does not apply to Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill.
§ The LORD ADVOCATEThe Financial Resolution does not apply to Clauses 1 and 2.
Mr. ADAMSONYes, I am referring to the Financial Resolution. We understand that in bringing about the changes which are proposed in this Bill, the Secretary of State is going to alter entirely the status of the servants of the Scottish Office. He is going to make them civil servants.
§ Sir J. GILMOURThe right hon. Gentleman must know that the present boards, and the staffs in connection with the boards, are civil servants, and this Financial Resolution has no bearing on any part of that Clause of the Bill.
Mr. ADAMSONI put this point to the Secretary of State in that connection. I hold the view that when the changes that are provided for in the Bill come into operation, and the officers are recognised as part and parcel of the ordinary civil Service, the most, natural thing for one to expect is that the civil servants of the Scottish Office will be looking for as large salaries as the corresponding servants in the English Departments, and that in all probability, instead of a saving being effected, they will find that there will be an increase in the cost of administration. If I am right in assuming that, where does the Secretary of State get the power to provide 1091 for the increase if it is not included in the Financial Resolution which we are considering?
§ The LORD ADVOCATEIf there is to be an increase of salaries, that will result in an increased Vote. It does not require a Financial Resolution. In the case of this Bill we do require and ask for a Financial Resolution on two points. The first point is that the Deputy Clerk Register has a salary fixed by Statute. That office is now being abolished, and a new post, more or less equivalent, is being suggested under this Bill, and, being a new post, it is necessary to have a Financial Resolution to provide for salary. The second point relates to the
§ staff of the Principal Extractor. At present the Principal Extractor appoints his own staff, and they are not established civil servants. It is most desirable, as has been pointed out by at least two Committees, that that staff should be put on an ordinary Civil Service pensionable basis. There, again, in order to achieve that basis, it is necessary to have a Financial Resolution. Surely hon. Members in all parts of the House agree that this is a desirable change and is only fair to the staff or the Extractor.
§ Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 146; Noes, 56.
1093| Division No. 26.] | AYES. | [9.55 p.m. |
| Aqq-Gardner. Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Albery, Irving James | Ganzonl, Sir John | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Ramsden, E. |
| Apsley, Lord | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Goff, Sir Park | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Ballour, George (Hampstead) | Grotrian, H. Brent | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Hamilton, Sir George | Rye, F. G. |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Harrison, G. J. C. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bethel, A. | Hartington, Marquess of | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Haslam, Henry C. | Sanders. Sir Robert A. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd.Henley) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Crort | Hendearon, Sir Vivian (Bootle) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Brown. Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexnam) | Hills, Major John Waller | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Brown,Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Hilton, Cecil | Stanley. Hon. D. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Buchan, John | Holt, Captain H. P. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Homan, C. W. J. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Burman, J. B. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Horlick, Lieut-Colonel J. N. | Streatfelid, Captain S. R. |
| Camphell, E. T. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney. N.) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Colman, N. C. D. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Lamb, J. Q. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Cope, Major William | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Couper, J. B. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Waddington, R. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lumley, L. R. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Cainsbro) | McLean, Major A. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil) | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Margesson, Captain D. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Ellis, R. G. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Wells. S. R. |
| England, Colonel A. | Meller, R. J. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Merriman, F. B. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff. South) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Williams. C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | wilson. R. R. (Stafford. Lichfield) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Womersley, W. J. |
| Fenhy, T. D. | Pennefather, Sir John | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Penny, Frederick George | |
| Forrest, W. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Captain Viscount Curzon and |
| Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Pitcher, G. | Captain Bowyer. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Ammon. Charles George | Barnes, A. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Baker, Walter | Batey, Joseph |
| Bondfleld, Margaret | Lowth, T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Bromfield, William | Lunn, William | Stephen, Campbell |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Glbbins, Joseph | Murnin, H. | Townend, A. E. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Greenall, T. | Polts, John S. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Greenwood, A. (Netson and Coine) | Richardson, R. Houghton-le-Spring) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Riley, Ben | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Hardie, George D. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F.O.(W.Bromwich) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R., Eiland; | Whiteley, W. |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Rose, Frank H. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Scrymgeour, E. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. | |
| Kelly, W. T. | Smillie, Robert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Kennedy, T. | Snell, Harry | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. |
| Kirkwood, D. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Charles Edwards. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.