§ The CHAIRMANWith regard to the first two Amendments which have been put down to this Clause—in page 7, line 31, to leave out the words "five years" and to insert instead thereof the words "one year," and, in line 34, to leave out the words "thirty-three and one-third" and insert instead thereof the word "ten"—it appears to me that it would be a matter of some difficulty to confine the discussion on either of these Amendments to strict limits, and I suggest that it might be for the convenience of the Committee if a general discussion took place on the first Amendment, and then, if hon. Members desire a Division on the second Amendment, it could be taken. Obviously, the discussions on the two Amendments would overlap to some extent if they were taken separately, and I think, following other precedents, that probably the course I have suggested would be the best. The 342 matter is, of course, in the hands of the Committee.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERI think it will suit the convenience of my hon. Friends if a general discussion is taken on the first Amendment, and if we then divide on the other Amendments that you may call.
§ The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister) indicated assent.
Mr. W. M. ADAMSONI beg to move, in page 7 line 31, to leave out the words "five years," and to insert instead thereof the words "one year."
In taking the general discussion on this Amendment, it will be possible to elaborate our opposition to the particular method of safeguarding which is to be operated under the heading of buttons. The proposal to bring this industry under the Safeguarding of Industries Act raises very definite and yet very peculiar opposition to the methods that have been 343 adopted, because, probably, this is the first instance of a committee under the Safeguarding of Industries Act taking evidence in camera which has not been published in the ordinary course prior to the issue of the findings. It is obvious, therefore, that our information is limited as to the activities of the committee that discussed the question whether safeguarding should or should not be applied to this industry, and that is a very good reason for objecting to its being brought into the Budget statement of this year, and into the Finance Bill for the establishment of Customs Duties and also Excise Duties.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Herbert Williams)Not Excise Duties.
Mr. ADAMSONI am sorry; I have made a mistake; it is a Customs Duty only. The question is, in the first place, whether this industry should be brought under safeguarding proposals which, in the main, are intended for industries of substantial importance. Obviously, if the manufacture of buttons is going to be regarded as an industry of sufficient importance to be brought within a kind of minor Protectionist proposals under safeguarding, we are led to wonder whether due consideration is going to be given to industries that really do matter as compared with the one that we are now discussing. Fashions very largely determine what the production of buttons is to be. At the highest peak of the industry there have never been more than 7,000 people engaged in it, and I believe the figure at present is only approximately 4,000.
The claim of safeguarding is that it is going to provide greater employment, but what can we say when we take also into consideration that the industry is very largely dying out because of the change of fashions? There is a tendency to eliminate buttons. There are many types of clothing on which buttons were used for ornamental rather than for any utilitarian purpose. For instance, on men's coat-sleeves. Ladies to-day are very largely wearing one-piece costumes, just as men wear pullovers. 20 or 25 years ago ladies' dresses had innumerable buttons either down the front or down the back. If that were the case to-day we could understand and appreciate it, 344 but evidently the Chancellor is not interested so long as he gains some little revenue, and therefore the President of the Board of Trade has to come to the rescue to tell us what wonderful things are expected from the safeguarding of buttons, which I understand will in no way help to make the industry more prosperous. It is not likely even to assist the one surviving remnant of the button industry which is, I understand, the pearl button, because that apparently is not made mainly for home production but for export. Every possible measure will be taken to evade the use of buttons and to adopt other contrivances. I think it was the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) who wanted to include patent fasteners, which are already coming into operation and will be increasingly used when this tax is brought into being.
§ Mr. HARRISThere are two Ministers present, and I think we are entitled to some reply to the hon. Member's carefully reasoned speech.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI thought the arrangement was that we should discuss both the rate of duty and the term for which it is to be imposed. Other Amendments have been put down by Members of both parties, and I thought a wider case would be made.
§ Mr. HARRISI am satisfied if the right hon. Gentleman proposes to reserve his reply, but I should have thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer would almost have followed the Mover and given a reasoned answer to the points he has made. I do not press the matter. I am perfectly satisfied. The right hon. Gentleman prefers to wait, and I have no doubt that he will deal with his usual courtesy with the case that I am going to put. It is interesting to remind the Committee that we are considering the Finance Bill of the year. During the whole of the afternoon we have been discussing proposals to add taxes, and the same sort of thing applied yesterday. What we are considering is the imposition of a duty on buttons, and according to all the traditions of this House we ought to have had the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Financial Secretary and the Under-Secretary for Scotland, who has been acting as one of the Chancellor's colleagues, present to hear the discussion. It is a curious thing that when certain 345 things of a Protectionist character come along, the Chancellor of the Exchequer disappears into the background or into his private room. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury goes with him. Their places are taken by the two charming personalities who now grace the Treasury Bench. I do not object to their personalities, but I do object to the principle of this proceeding, because it is the business of the Treasury to defend the taxes of the year. At any rate, one Minister from that Department should be present. I see the Junior Lord of the Treasury is now present. Perhaps he has appeared to justify the placing of this additional burden upon the taxpayers.
Fundamentally this has nothing whatever to do with the Board of Trade. During the last two or three years we have had this new principle introduced. It is considered that it is the business of the Board of Trade to impose taxes and to ask the House of Commons to agree to these taxes. After all, this is a new tax. There is an attempt to lump together all these various classes of buttons as though they were of the same character and came within the same category. It would be just as reasonable to say that when you spoke of cloth you meant all kinds of cloth. Of course, cloth is divided into woollens, silk, and cotton. So it is with buttons. They are of great variety, of different character, made of different raw materials, and used for different purposes, and are as distinct from each other as the half-dozen articles that are comprised in the description of cloth. I am going to prophesy—it is one of the reasons why I support the Amendment—that the result of this duty will not be to encourage or to stimulate the button industry, or to open a number of new factories, but that on the whole it will only have the effect of bringing more money to the coffers of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The hon. Member for Cannock (Mr. W. M. Adamson) referred to the question of fancy buttons. I cannot move myself into a passion to object to a tax on fancy buttons. If ladies choose to decorate themselves less, it will not be very serious, for their charms will still remain. But it is a very curious thing that a great number of these taxes have been placed upon various articles that are used for the decoration of ladies' 346 dress. Artificial silk, fabric gloves, silk stockings and so on, lace and embroidery have all been subject to taxation. I suppose that if you are going to have taxes of this character, there cannot be the same serious objection to them if you single out luxuries. The only objection is to the principle. As a matter of fact, the words "fancy buttons" comprise a very large category. A great number of fancy glass buttons used to be manufactured in Bohemia, but fashion has decreed that they shall no longer be used. A large number of buttons are manufactured of "erinoid," or out of "galalith," both milk products, made out of what is called casein. The "erinoid" is actually manufactured in this country. Some of it is exported abroad and turned into buttons, which come back again as finished products to this country. The buttons made in this country are largely turned buttons. On the other hand, the "erinoid" button, which is principally imported into this country, is stamped by machinery and turned out in immense quantities. It is sold not only in this country but all over the Continent of Europe.
As I say, this appears to be a luxury, and if it results in the luxury being made more expensive nobody in this country will be seriously injured, except that there has arisen during the last two years in this country, not only in London but in Manchester and Birmingham, a considerable industry of manufactured costumes for export. Most of this industry was formerly centred in Berlin, Vienna and Paris, but, owing to the enterprise of the British manufacturer and to the fact that he has been able to buy his cloth in a free market, he has been able to make considerable progress in the manufacture of ladies' costumes. This duty small as it may be, is not going to assist the manufacture of ladies' clothing for the export trade. On the contrary, it will, to a certain extent, handicap the British manufacturer. It is a very interesting thing—and perhaps the Minister will explain this—that when once a button is attached to a garment it is not to be allowed to receive any drawback. That does not seem fair. In the case of artificial silk, when a garment is exported the exporter gets a drawback upon it. I suppose that the obvious answer of the right hon. Gentleman would 347 be that the amount claimed would be comparatively small, and that therefore the difficulty of collection would be too great. It seems to be only right in principle that the button having been attached to the garment the manufacturer should, if he likes to take the trouble, be entitled to a drawback. I put that to the Minister so that he will be prepared to consider a proposal of that kind. It may be a small thing, but when 100, 200 or 300 garments are being exported to the Argentine, Australia or Canada—and there are thousands of garments exported with buttons attached—it comes to a very considerable sum in regard to the number of fancy buttons that are taxed.
However, a tax on fancy buttons leaves me cold, but when you come to the other taxes, those placed upon ordinary articles of commerce, then it is a different matter. The trouser button, as explained in the Report, has rather an interesting history. It used to be manufactured of metal or of bone or ivory—the cheaper button in metal and the more expensive button in bone or ivory. But the ingenuity of the chemist has resulted in the discovery in South America of a very valuable nut. The chemists and the scientists have combined to enable manufacturers to produce a button from this nut known as vegetable ivory. Owing to the great progress that has been made in the manufacture of this button, the clothing trade has been revolutionised. The ivory button has disappeared, and the metal button has almost gone out, except in the very cheap trade. If we examine the buttons on our coats we shall no doubt discover that they are not made of ivory but out of the product of this valuable nut.
My Protectionist friends may say, "Why should not these buttons be manufactured in this country?" That seems a reasonable question. I have inquired—I have taken a great deal of trouble—and I am informed that, owing to the character of the nut, it is necessary, and it is a very great advantage, to manufacture the buttons in a dry climate. The Italian climate is especially suited to its production. I can give evidence in favour of that statement. The material was originally manufactured in Germany, but the German industry has 348 largely closed down and it has been transferred to Italy, where they have gone in for mass production and are making immense quantities which are distributed all over the world. It goes into almost every country where the people wear what we call civilised garments and use buttons. It does not go to a large extent to Central Africa, although I noticed that even some visitors to this House from Central Africa had gone in for civilised garments, and were wearing buttons. The figures are given in the report. These buttons are imported into this country, not in thousands of grosses but in millions of grosses. The actual production in this country of these particular buttons only runs to a few thousand gross a year. The bulk of them that are manufactured come over already moulded and are simply altered in a slight degree through a secondary process.
The result of this duty will not be the starting of a large industry in this country to turn this particular nut into buttons. It will merely mean a tax of 25 per cent. on the import of this particular article. The President of the Board of Trade may say that this is a trifling matter to make a fuss about, as it will only mean a tax of 2d. or 3d. or even less on a suit of clothes. It can always be argued against every tax that it is only a little one. I should like to refer to the British export trade in clothing. I do not think it is realised what an immense export clothing industry we have in this country, especially in men's clothing. This duty will apply to men's clothing as well as to women's clothing. English clothing all over the world has the reputation of being better than any other clothing. People will always pay more for an English-made suit, whether it be a ready-made suit or a tailored suit as something worth keeping, and as a result the clothing trade of Leeds and East London has been able to get a great number of world markets in spite of severe competition, and has been able to jump the tariff wall even of the Australian Commonwealth, which is saying something. There is a large amount of British clothing going into the Australian Commonwealth. The same may be said in regard to America and Canada, and certainly it applies to South Africa and South America.
349 I happen to have information about a particular firm in East London. They are exporting clothing not by dozens or hundreds of suits but by thousands of suits. They will not consider an order for less than 1,000 garments. These garments are going largely to South Africa to clothe the natives, and buttons on a very large order and on very cheap garments represent a considerable percentage. It may surprise hon. Members to know that trousers are being made at under 5s. a pair. They are made entirely by electrical machinery. They are cut out by machinery, sewn by machinery and the buttons are riveted on by machinery. The cloth is imported from abroad and the buttons are imported from abroad, and now the Government are going to tax the buttons which are the raw material of this industry. Unless the Government are going to make it their case that they will give increased employment in this country by starting this industry in this country, then from the tariff reform point of view and even from the point of view of the safeguarding of industries they have no right to levy a tax on buttons which will not result in the starting of a new industry, but will make a small article, which is of considerable use in the clothing industry, much more expensive.
I need not argue the case of the linen button at length, because it is admitted that no linen buttons are imported into this country except buttons of the lowest and cheapest character. The cheap linen buttons that are sold from the coster's barrow in Bethnal Green are imported from abroad. Why do they import them? They are not satisfactory. They are only imported because they are cheap and because the people who use them are poor and their wages are low and the household is difficult to maintain. Therefore, these people can go to the coster's barrow and buy these cheap linen buttons which the British manufacturer will not bother about because they are not worth handling. Of the better class linen button, 80 per cent. of the trade is already in the hands of manufacturers in this country. We have a world trade in the linen button. This trade do not ask for protection. They are suffering from depression which is not due to foreign competition but to fashion. Owing to the use of artificial silk, the pearl button is 350 now being used in place of the linen button, and that is the reason why there is not so much employment in the linen button trade. In the linen button trade this country has practically a monopoly except in the lower category. That is admitted in the report.
The last thing is the pearl button. The President of the Board of Trade was very severe on me on the last occasion and tried to make out that I was misleading the House when I suggested that the Japanese had a great advantage in the manufacture of this particular article because the raw material was adjacent to Japan. I was informed, and I believe I am right, that the great bulk of the shell required to make the pearl button, not the mother of pearl button but the shell button, is found either in Japan or in China, largely in Korea. A certain amount is imported from Australia. The President of the Board of Trade will perhaps be surprised to hear that Australia is very much nearer to Japan than it is to this country. Before the shell can be converted into the finished product it has to go through a great many processes and there is a great deal of wastage. It is very expensive to import the shell in its raw state and it is far more convenient to convert it into buttons on the spot. This is an essential Japanese industry. In regard to the real mother of pearl button the English manufacturers can undoubtedly hold their own in world competition. They can produce good quality mother of pearl buttons without fear of any competition. The figures and statistics are to be found in the Report and it is not necessary for me to repeat them. The mother of pearl industry does not want protection. It is the cheap shell button that is to be protected, and there again a tax is being imposed on an article of commerce which is used as a raw material.
Largely owing to the tremendous progress in artificial silk which has been made by the great firms of Courtaulds and the Celanese Company, a great industry has been created here and that trade requires for the lower grade materials a cheap supply of shell buttons. These buttons are bought because they are cheap, and I prophesy again that in spite of this duty, if it lasts for 12 months and if the figures can be 351 kept separate, it will be found that the imports of the Japanese shell buttons will go on on a large scale. The only result of the duty will be that it will bring in revenue to the Chancellor of the Exchequer—no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will be glad to have that revenue—but at the same time it will add to the cost of raw material and will not greatly stimulate any particular industry in this country. It is a tax which even on the right hon. Gentleman's own test, on the safeguarding test and on the test of the principles underlying the Safeguarding Act, cannot be justified either in practice or in theory. I hope for that reason that it will be rejected. If it cannot be rejected, I ask the Committee to separate the four different qualities. Let us keep them as distinct articles—as distinct as silk is from cotton or leather from cork. Let us say, if you like, that you should tax a luxury article like the fancy button, but not the cheap button from abroad.
I do ask the Minister not to allow himself to be guided solely by the report of this Committee. This principle of a Minister coming down and saying that these three great men selected from nowhere in particular have decided that there should be a tax, and that therefore we must have a tax, ought not to be adopted. I am very glad to see the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) has come into the Committee for I think he has an equal grievance with me. These three gentlemen say that there should be a tax on hooks and eyes, and therefore there must be a tax. They say that there should be a tax on buttons and therefore the House of Commons has to give up its responsibility. The Minister has to give up his responsibility and say that, because these three great gentlemen say there should be a tax, therefore willy-nilly the House of Commons must impose this duty. I think that is really making Parliament give up its responsibility, and I hope, at any rate on this occasion, that the Minister will not take cover behind the opinion of three particular gentlemen. I have much pleasure in supporting the Amendment.
§ Mr. H. WILLIAMSWith regard to the last point raised by the hon. Member 352 for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris), in which he suggested that we should differentiate between different classes of buttons, I want to direct his attention to page 10 of the Report of the Committee which, incidentally, was a very competent Committee, and has presented one of the most detailed and comprehensive reports received on any subject. If he will refer to that page he will find that the Committee came to the conclusion that buttons—
are to a great extent indispensable, and form a homogeneous class, and we think any duty which may ultimately be held desirable should he applied to all types of buttons alike. Any attempt to discriminate between different categories would, in our opinion, be ineffective, and probably lead to many complications.That is the carefully considered decision of the Committee, and the hon. Member has not presented the Committee or me with any reasons why we should differentiate between the different types. His speech was, with great respect, characteristic of his point of view. He holds the real faith of Free Trade. The whole of his speech was based on the assumption that, of necessity, this duty was going to send up the price of the button. He is not entitled to make that assumption. He is only entitled to assume that prices will rise by the amount of the duty in general where the Customs Duty is accompanied by a similar Excise Duty. If you have a large tax-free source of supply, you must consider whether that tax will not operate so that it will prevent a rise in prices. It would be worth while for the hon. Member to study page 9 of that report, where they consider, with very great care, the effect of overhead prices on the cost of production, and also the effect of the cost of production when British manufacturers can only get orders for the larger and more expensive types, and do not get an opportunity for supplying large quantities of the smaller types. Under these circumstances, not only are their overhead expenses unduly high, but there is a very large wastage of material. The result is that many manufacturers to-day are producing at cost far in excess of those which will prevail as soon as they have settled down under the duty now provisionally in operation and which, I trust, will be fully in operation when the Bill becomes the Finance Act.353 The hon. Member has no right to build up a speech on an unproved assumption. His unproved assumption is that any customs duty necessarily puts up the price to the consumer. He said that this was a further tax on the public. It is not necessarily a further tax on the British public at all. The probability is that as this is a tax on buttons which are imported it will be a tax on the public of other countries. My justification for saying that is that the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green cannot point to a single existing Safeguarding Duty, the burden of which is falling on the British public. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Pottery!"] As regards pottery, the question has been recently debated and the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley) completely demolished the contention.
§ The CHAIRMANI fear, if the hon. Gentleman goes into that question, others may wish to follow him.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSI apologise for being led astray, but the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green always comes along and pontifically declares to us that something may happen, but he never supplies any evidence. The hon. Member referred to the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but there is no question of difference either as to the Conservative party or the Government, for we are one and undivided. The hon. Member went on to criticise the effect on the export of British dresses and suits of clothing. The whole of that is built up on the assumption that the price of buttons was going up, but until he proves it he has no right to make the assumption. Let us, however, for the moment give him his point and assume that prices are going up. I wonder if he has worked out how much it is going to add to the cost of his suit? He grumbled because there was no drawback when the buttons were sewn on. If he consults the Safeguarding of Industries (Customs Duties) Act of 1925, he will find in the Schedule that a drawback will be payable where the buttons go out in the form in which they come in, but when they have undergone a process of manufacture, and have become part of a garment the drawback is not operative, because that would be stimulating the use of foreign buttons on goods for export.
§ Mr. HARRISYou can claim a drawback on imported silk. It seems to me that if the exporter can show that the buttons are imported, it is in the interest of British trade, from a Protectionist point of view, that he should be allowed to claim a drawback in such cases.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSThe hon. Gentleman does not appreciate the difference. Whereas it is perfectly true the duties on real and artificial silk to some extent have a safeguarding effect, they are primarily revenue duties, and the raw material in both cases is taxed. In the case of artificial silk, there is an excise duty of half the rate of the Customs Duty, and therefore, of course, there is a drawback. In the case of silk, the raw material is taxed, and therefore the whole supply of raw material in both cases is subject to some tax. That is why the drawback provisions in the case of silk are different from those applying where there is a Safeguarding Duty in operation and there is no excise duty in operation. The hon. Gentleman said that we could not manufacture vegetable ivory buttons satisfactorily in this country. Since he made that statement in Committee of Ways and Means, we have made some inquiries. We are informed by the British manufacturers that there is no foundation whatsoever for that statement. These buttons were manufactured in a very considerable quantity before the War, and I am glad to say their production is now rapidly increasing. The suggestion that the weather is a dominant factor is not the fact. With regard to trochus shells, the hon. Gentleman has been re-arguing the point he made in Committee of Ways and Means with regard to the advantage which the Japanese have because of the nearness of their sources of raw material. I am sorry the hon. Member has not read the Report a little more carefully. May I refer him to page 7, where the Committee are very definite. The bulk of these imitation mother-of-pearl buttons are made from the trochus shell, although some are made from fresh-water shell; and the Committee say:
There is no reason to believe that the cost of the trochus shell (which comes from Australian waters) is materially cheaper to the Japanese when freights both ways are taken into account, though no doubt they are in an advantageous position in respect to the fresh-water shell. But the British manufacturers cannot get down to 355 anything like imported prices, and in the absence of any other explanation we are driven to the conclusion that the chief productions of Japan must be ascribed in the main to lower labour conditions in that country.
§ Mr. E. BROWNWill the Parliamentary Secretary read in page 12, paragraph 28, or perhaps he will allow me to read it:
The lower price of the imported articles is most marked in the case of the Japanese trochus buttons, for which without more definite evidence than we have been able to obtain as to the conditions of manufacture in Japan, we find it very difficult to account.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSNaturally, they did not have any specific evidence, but it is common knowledge that the labour conditions in Japan are not of the same standard as obtain in this country, and the Committee are entitled to draw the conclusion that it is due to the lower labour conditions which prevail in that country. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment said that the industry was dying because of the change of fashion. He did not develop his speech on this very interesting line, modesty held him back at a certain point. I do not think he is quite right. It is true that less buttons are being used than in pre-War days. Ladies in those days used to have a great many down the front and a great many down the back, but now they have garments which they can drop over their heads without any buttons. No doubt there are still many buttons used which we do not see. Substantial quantities are still used in such things as pillow slips——
§ Mr. HARRISThose are linen buttons.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSStill, they are very much used, and you will find that the importation of buttons during 1927 was substantially higher than in 1913. I am willing to concede the point that some of the importations in 1927 may have been anticipatory because they thought there was going to be an application for safeguarding, but if you take previous years it is quite clear that there has been no decrease in the importation of buttons. On the whole, the production of buttons has dropped by one-third of what it was in pre-War days. The Report says quite definitely that owing to the change of fashion there has been a reduction in the 356 consumption of buttons, and that that reduction has fallen almost exclusively on the British producers. We are, therefore, entitled to assert that the cause of the present condition of the British industries is primarily the result of importation being maintained at the same level as in previous years while British production has fallen enormously. That is a fair reply to the hon. Member.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERWhat about the total imports?
§ Mr. WILLIAMSThey will be found on page 11, but the figures for the whole of 1927 are not given. I have had them made out for me, and I find that the number of gross imported was 13,294,940, as compared with 11,629,836 in 1913.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSI always like to be fair, and I pointed out that the imports of 1927 were greater, but if the hon. Member will look back he will find that in 1926, when conditions were somewhat abnormal, it was 9,000,000, in 1925 over 10,500,000, and that in 1927 it was much greater than that. The bulk of the increase in importation in 1927 took place before the public announcement was made of the appointment of the Safeguarding Committee, and I do not think the greater part of that increase can be ascribed to an anticipation of the duty. The hon. Member for Cannock (Mr. Adamson) suggested that the buttons on sleeves were seldom decorative. He is quite wrong. I do not want him to examine the coat he has on, but as a rule tailors provide us with three buttons on our coat sleeves, and these buttons vary. Some are decorative, some are unfastened. If you go to the best tailors they give you four, two of each: if you go to a bad tailor none of them unfasten. Hon. Members of the Liberal party have an Amendment on the Paper to provide that buttons which are fastened shall be exempt from the duty while those which are for decorative purposes shall pay. I ask hon. Members to look at their coats and they will find that they are identical, and it would be absurd to suggest that the Customs officials should differentiate between these two sets of buttons. It would be quite impossible to analyse the motives of the importer, as to what he 357 is going to do with the buttons. That Amendment is really too absurd for words, and, with a view to their own reputations, I hope they will not move it. We have had a long Debate previously on this matter, and unless there is any further point of real substance I hope we may now take a vote.
§ Mr. J. HUDSONI can understand that the pontifical statement of the Parliamentary Secretary should conclude with the supposition that everything is now to be wound up. There is still a good deal to be said on this question which does not appear in his speech or in the Report to which he attaches such importance. In a recent Debate he dismissed with scorn any reference to the economic theories of Mill or Adam Smith, and I presume he is able to do so because of these special reports which contain such carefully considered statements from which such complete conclusions can always be drawn. I am not able to take that attitude. These reports regarding the safeguarding of industry procedure are among the most unsatisfactory State documents published in this or any other country. They all consist, in my opinion, of special pleadings, and very frequently, as indeed in this case, accusations are made, with good grounds as to the biased attitude not only of the ordinary members of these committees, but sometimes of the chairmen themselves. We are considering now a proposal made by the Committee which heard the evidence for the application of this special duty in camera. Those who provided the evidence were so uncertain of its value that they were not prepared to let it see the light of day, and we are asked by the Board of Trade, after a procedure of that sort, after evidence given in that way, to regard this statement as quite final and to proceed to impose this special duty.
It may be true that the subject of the tax is of very minor importance, but I think we are right on these benches in continuing our opposition to all this typo of taxation on account of the principle that is involved. The Parliamentary Secretary in one part of his speech drew attention to the lower wages in Japan as a reason for our protection against the pearl or imitation pearl buttons that Japan exports to this country, and he made the same mistake in coming to that conclusion as he made on a former occasion 358 when we were dealing with a similar proposal He assumed that the conditions in Japan are generally worse than the conditions here, and that therefore it could be argued without further evidence that the conditions in this particular industry would be worse. The importance of this issue, from my point of view, is that if the general conditions of industry in Japan are lower all round and there is no difference between the rates paid in wages and the general rates of production in this case, as compared with other industries in Japan, then there is no case made out for a special protection against goods coming into this country, unless it can be shown that some very spec al advantage is being obtained because of the lower rates of wages in one particular industry.
I said in a previous Debate that the arguments of John Stuart Mill on this issue had never been upset, and they have not been upset by the Parliamentary Secretary's pontifical statement drawn from the Reports of Committees like those that we are considering. The hon. Gentleman, as usual, went on to protest against our argument that these protective taxes are usually shifted to the consumer. He said that there was no evidence of that statement. I am willing to admit that in certain exceptional cases where there is a peculiar elasticity in demand—in those cases so well examined theoretically by Professor Alfred Marshall in the famous White Paper issued by the Government when these controversies first came before us—it is true that it may be possible to shift the burden of a tax on to the foreigner and avoid the burden yourself. But our experience of the taxes that have been tried in connection with this procedure, in a large number of cases if not in all, leads us to suppose that the tax usually has to be borne by our consumers, and the Government know perfectly well that there is always the risk of that result. Therefore, although the Parliamentary Secretary-may pretend to dismiss scornfully the slight burden of this tax upon buttons, let me assure him that the question of obtaining orders for garments from abroad is very often decided by very small margins, reckoned not in shillings and pounds but in halfpennies and farthings. It is in Leeds, Manchester, London and other great cities that the 359 garment-making trades are found, and it hon. Gentlemen opposite are really concerned about getting more employment for our people and safeguarding the conditions in the trade, they should really consider the necessity of avoiding a pettifogging tax such as this.
I do not want to go into great detail regarding the different types of buttons that we are discussing. Pearl buttons, the real pearl buttons, are for the most part made in this country. We have very largely a monopoly of the trade, and in addition to supplying our own market have a very considerable export trade. The matter is dealt with in the Report of the Committee which has been referred to. The export of mother-of-pearl buttons produced in this country amounted in 1924 to 240,000 gross. Surely there is no advantage to be obtained for that type of button by attempting to put any tax on the buttons that come from abroad? Indeed it would be more likely, in the crippling influence that it would set up in our general international trade arrangements, to result in a loss of some of the trade that we already possess in that particular article. The same remark applies to many of the erinoid buttons produced in this country, in which we have a considerable export trade. The only place where you can hope to secure an advantage is in relation to the import of goods from Japan or Italy, but the prices at which those goods can be made in Japan and Italy are so much lower than the prices at which we are able to produce them, that it is a mere waste of time for this House to discuss the matter in the hope of securing any advantage whatever.
I know that Conservative Members will go down to their constituents and talk about their Empire Bill—fastening the Empire together with buttons. They will wave the flag over their heads. The fact remains, when they have pushed their claim down to the last button, that still with their 334 per cent. protection they will win no advantage at all against the commodities made in Italy and Japan, and that not even a 100 per cent. tax would produce the results that they pretend to desire. In view of the important claims that have been made, and although buttons are small and the question raised is apparently smaller, it is 360 worth our while to spend some time in getting rid of the stupid pretensions that the Tory party so generally put forward.
§ Mr. MACKINDERI wish to enter once again an emphatic protest against the way in which Members are treated in connection with these safeguarding proposals. Only certain Members have the advantage of reading the evidence, or hearing the evidence submitted for and against these applications. I take it that hon. Members opposite would prefer to convince Members on this side, rather than bludgeon them by mere numbers in the Division Lobby. I, like other Members, have only a limited amount of time at my disposal, and much as I would like to attend these inquiries, I cannot do so. I have asked many times that the evidence submitted to these various committees should be placed in the Library, but that request has always been refused. In the report of the committee dealing with buttons one finds a paragraph like this:
The foreigner, on the other hand, with the advantage as it appeal's to us of cheaper labour, produces a largo quantity of pressed buttons.Members ought to have the evidence on which the committee base that assumption. After all, it is an assumption that the foreign labour is cheaper. I am interested in the trade union movement. The employers in the West Riding of Yorkshire claimed that owing to cheap labour the French could produce cloth cheaper than ours. We sent a deputation of workpeople to France, and they completely exploded that fallacy. If is too expensive to place this evidence at the disposal of Members, or if it is too unimportant, at least we ought to know the reason why we cannot have it. This is considered by the Government to be a matter of some importance, and there does not seem to be any good reason why we should not have an opportunity of seeing all the arguments advanced pro and con. All through the report rims the assumption about cheap labour. On page 6 we find:We are satisfied that the principal reason for the cheapness of the Italian buttons is the lower cost of labour in that country, lower overheads and mass production.What is the evidence in support of that statement? Is there any reason why it should not be available? I have asked 361 in this Chamber on three occasions that any Member who cared to do so should have the opportunity to investigate the case made by the appellants in these applications. This committee also state:We heard something of a newly invented multiple press which was said to reduce labour costs in this process.Are we to take it for granted that the committee has heard of the machine and that that is quite sufficient? I shall continue to raise my protest against any of these safeguarding proposals being brought before us without Members of Parliament having the access to the information on which the committee makes its decision.
§ 10.0 p.m.
§ Mr. E. BROWNI wish to add a few words to the admirable statement made by the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris). Before we come to a decision upon this Amendment, we ought to realise the effect which this duty will have upon the entrepot trade in these buttons. At least one-third of the Japanese shell importation is for the entrepot trade and if hon. Members turn to page 15, they will find that the conclusion of the committee is a very guarded one:
It has been suggested to us that there is a large re-export trade which now has its home in this country, and that the facilities for re-export would he greatly decreased if a duty was imposed. While recognising the importance of this re-export trade, we doubt whether our conclusions ought to be influenced by this consideration, and we think that the suggested difficulties could be got over by separate orders for and separate packing of buttons.The committee were obviously in grave doubt as to what was the answer to the opposition of those interested in that trade. It is an important branch of British commerce. All kinds of people round the docks, wharfingers, those engaged in the warehousing trade and carriers, are interested in it. The next paragraph of the Report leads up to the final conclusion—and the weight of this argument seems to me to be overwhelming at least as regards the Japanese buttons. The committee asked the question whether the claim has been substantiated or not and they say:The duty asked for was 33⅓ per cent. on all buttons. We have some doubt whether 362 in every case this amount will be sufficient to bridge the gap in prices, and there are possibly some types of buttons, such as those made from the cheap Japanese fresh water shell with which we shall never be able to compete in this country, but any higher duty would probably be excessive in other classes, and we do not think that it would be feasible to impose discriminating rates on the different classes.I submit that on the finding of the committee there is an overwhelming case in favour of our contention. Since this particular type of button enters very largely into the export trade and since the committee find that we shall never be able no compete in regard to it, the effect of this duty will be to hand over to Hamburg the trade in Japanese buttons at present exported to Europe through London.
§ Mr. PALINGI have read the report with great interest and one thing which seems to stand out in it above everything else is its inconclusiveness. I think there have been as many meetings held by this committee as by any other committee which has made a report. There have been 35 meetings and I understand that 19 of them were meetings for getting evidence. It appears that they have tried to get evidence and have made every effort to try to prove the case because they wanted to do so but notwithstanding that, the report seems to be inconclusive. For instance they say on page 5:
The foreigner, on the other hand, with the advantage as it appears to us—Surely if they have the evidence, and if the evidence is conclusive, they ought to know whether it is the fact or not. It could not appear as one thing to them and as another thing to somebody else. It evidently was not very conclusive, or they would not have put in those words. They go on to say:We heard something of a newly invented multiple press.Fancy a committee of this description people who are supposed to know what they are talking about, people with judicial minds, meeting 35 times, and saying, "We heard something of a multiple press!" What kind of evidence is that? The hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder) and other Members have been pressing time after time in this House for the evidence in these inquiries to be laid on the Table 363 so that we can see it. When they come and say, "We heard something of a multiple press," and "It appears to us" and so on all the way through from beginning to end of this report, we ought to have the evidence before us. They say:We heard something of a newly invented multiple press, which was said"—said," mark you—to reduce labour costs in this process, and we were told that foreign firms are able in some cases to make use of their erinoid waste in further production, which is not done here.We heard something," "which was said," and "we were told" all in one sentence! In nearly every paragraph there is something of the same description. It is the most inconclusive thing that could possibly be written and presented to the House of Commons. The report says further:These processes, however, seem to be still in an experimental stage.They "seem to be"; they do not know. Somebody has told them something about something which has appeared somewhere, some time, somehow, and they say: "It seems to be!" They do not know, but it is good enough to offer as evidence to the President of the Board of Trade, and because of his anxiety to get safeguarding, seeing that they cannot get full protection, it is good enough for him to accept. But when we ask that the evidence upon which these reports have been based shall be presented to the House of Commons, apparently the President of the Board of Trade thinks it is so bad that he refuses to give it to us; and no wonder, in face of a report of this description, in which they say that somebody has told them something about something that occurred somewhere, some time, somehow, in some continent which they do not know about. Then the Report says:We are satisfied that the principal reason for the cheapness of the Italian buttons is the lower cost of labour.They are satisfied, but they do not give any evidence; they do not quote anything, and they do not tell you where you can get the evidence. They say that they are satisfied, and the lower cost of labour is the only argument that they put forward from beginning to end of this 364 report. But the next few words are rather significant:We are satisfied that the principal reason for the cheapness of the Italian buttons is the lower cost of labour in that country, lower overheads and mass production.Lower overheads and mass production are things which we might have in this country. Surely that is not a good reason for putting on a protective duty. By saying that the Italians have lower overhead costs than we have and have introduced mass production where we have not done so in this country, they are simply giving evidence that the Italians know their business better than we do and can sell buttons more cheaply than we can for that reason. They go on to say in the next paragraph:We were informed that the British cost could be very materially reduced by the installation of special machines which are in use on the Continent.They do not know; they did not make any inquiry about the special machines; but they say, "We were informed," and they leave it at that, and they produce that as good evidence. If it is the fact that the price of buttons has been reduced on the Continent and they can sell them so cheaply because of the use of special machines, that again seems to be pretty good evidence that the people on the Continent know their business with regard to making buttons better than we do, and use the latest scientific machinery that can be used, and presumably, because of the fact that we do not use it here, they are asking for a protective tariff of 33⅓ per cent., and getting it. I see again that at the top of page 7 they say:There is no reason to believe"—they do not know—that the cost of the trochus shell (which comes from Australian waters) is materially cheaper to the Japanese.…though no doubt they are in an advantageous position in respect of the fresh water shells, but the British manufacturers cannot get down to anything like imported prices, and in the absence of any other explanation we are driven to the conclusion that the cheap production of Japan must be ascribed in the main to lower labour conditions in that country.They do not know: they cannot prove it, but "in the absence of any other explanation" they assume this and send it as evidence to the President of the Board of Trade, knowing that he will accept 365 it, as he has done here to-night. In paragraph 14 they go on to say:There are now only two firms left in this country who do this trade to any important extent, but they are, in our opinion, sufficiently equipped to take their full share in this important section of the button industry if conditions can be equalised, though we feel some doubt whether the 33⅓ per cent. duty asked for by the applicants will be practically effective.They do not know; they are suggesting something about which they feel a doubt. If you go on to page 14, you get the same thing. In paragraph 36 they say:In this country, wages are regulated by a Trade Board, under which the minimum rates for workers over 21 years are 1s. 3¾d. to 1s. 1½d. per hour (men) and 7½d. to 6½d. per hour (women). We gathered that a good deal of labour in some button factories is juvenile labour, for which, of course, the Trade Board rates are lower, but we have no reason to suppose that this is not also the case abroad.They gather that a good deal of labour in British factories is juvenile labour; they do not know, and they did not make sufficient inquiries to ascertain, but somebody told them, and they believed it, and they put it down here. Then, again, they say, in order to try to say something against that statement:But we have reason to suppose that this is also the case abroad.I ask the President of the Board of Trade: Does he think that that is evidence fit to lay before the House of Commons to ask them to put a 33⅓ per cent. duty on buttons? Take paragraph 37. There they say:We had information from various sources dealing with wages in the button industry in Italy, Japan, Austria, Czechoslovakia and Germany. In every case wages were considerably below those in this country, and, although this information was not always quite up to date, and it is probably true that wages abroad have been lately on the up grade"—here they are making a suggestion on evidence which they admit is not up to date, on figures which by their own admission are not up to date. They say:It is probably true that wages abroad have been lately on the up grade,but they did not make any inquiry, and they have no figures to prove it. They wanted to prove a case for a protective duty on buttons, and they were satisfied, because somebody had told them something, that it was probably true, and because they wanted to put a protective 366 duty on buttons they have brought in a Report full of paragraphs of this description, the most inconclusive thing which has ever been presented to Parliament. The President of the Board of Trade ought to be heartily ashamed of himself for accepting it.
§ Mr. CRAWFURDI want to put one point to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. I put this forward in support of the plea of the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder). I do not know whether the hon. Member for Shipley or I myself have asked the more often that we should have put before us the evidence in these cases, but, whichever of us has done it the more frequently, I am quite with him in saying that I do think it is time that we should be enabled to judge of the evidence in these inquiries. I want the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, if he will, to read one passage to which I draw his attention, the second sentence in paragraph 40:
While recognising the importance of this re-export trade, we doubt whether our conclusions ought to be influenced by this consideration.The paragraph in the White Paper dealing with safeguarding under which that observation was made is quoted above, and it is this:Whether the imposition of a duty on goods of the class or description in question would exert a seriously adverse effect on employment in any other industry, being an industry using goods of that class or description in production.I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question, and as I have only been back in my place about 20 minutes I do not expect he will answer me when I sit down, but I would be very grateful if the right hon. Gentleman will, on the Report stage, take the opportunity of answering the question which I am going to put to him:The point is whether, when you have set up a Committee under the terms of the White Paper, there is any doubt as to whether the Committee ought to have regard to the re-export trade in dealing with the particular article concerned, or—and I am not suggesting this as being the fact—whether any instruction has been given by the right hon. Gentleman's Department to such Committees to disregard the effect that may be produced on the re-export trade? This report, 367 while setting out quite clearly the paragraph from the White Paper, states that the Committee recognise that there is an important re-export trade but are doubtful whether their conclusions ought to be influenced by that consideration. If we had the evidence and could read it for ourselves, we should be able to come to some conclusion as to whether they were right as regards this doubt and whether the effect on the re-export trade was likely to be important or not. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman or his colleague, either to-night or at some future time, to give an answer as to whether there should in future be any doubt at all in the minds of the Committee.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI need not wait for the Report stage to answer that question. The answer is two-fold. No special instructions have been given to this or any other Committee. The second answer is that His Majesty's Government have had the foresight to consider the entrepot trade, and, if the hon. Member looks at the Bill, he will see that in Sub-section (3) all those provisions of the earlier Finance Acts for giving special facilities for the entrepot trade are embodied in respect of this and other duties imposed. A drawback is given on those articles which are re-exported in the same condition as they were when they were imported. That, I think, is the complete answer. My hon. Friend very seldom misses a point like that. With regard to publishing the evidence, I am following the excellent precedent set by the hon. Member's party, when they were in office in the Coalition Government.
§ Mr. CRAWFURDOh no, I cannot associate myself with that.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe precedent set then, which has always been followed, is that the report should be published but not the evidence. I would point out that when any duty is proposed merely upon the authority of the Government we have not even got a report. Here we have a full inquiry
§ and a report, and therefore there can be much less question of the House being uninformed than in the case of a duty presented merely on the authority of a Minister. I must say quite emphatically that if at some future time alterations are made in the procedure by way of the White Paper, they will not be in the direction of making the procedure more cumbrous.
§ Mr. SNOWDENI beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was going to give some reason in reply to the arguments of the hon. Member behind me below the Gangway, why the evidence should not be produced. The only excuse the right hon. Gentleman made was to say that when the Government make proposals there is no evidence required, but the difference between the Government making some proposal and a statutory committee——
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERIt is not statutory at all.
§ Mr. SNOWDENBut these committees come under the safeguarding White Paper, which lays down the rules and regulations——
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERIt has no statutory authority at all.
§ Mr. SNOWDENThe contention of my hon. friend's is a perfectly sound one. Is the House of Commons to be expected to take this Report simply on trust, especially when on the face of it the Report gives indications that there is obviously some real foundation for many of its statements. The House of Commons has a perfect right to know the evidence on which the Committee came to their conclusions, and until we have that report the House of Commons is not in a position to come to an intelligent conclusion on the matter.
§ Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 123; Noes, 229.
369| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Sexton, James |
| Buchanan, G. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Shinwell, E. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Compton, Joseph | Kelly, W. T. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Connolly, M. | Kennedy, T. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Cove, W. G. | Kirkwood, D. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lansbury, George | Smillie, Robert |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lee, F. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Livingstone, A. M. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lowth, T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Day, Harry | Lunn, William | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Dennison, R. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Strauss, E. A. |
| Dunnico, H. | Mackinder, W. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Edge, Sir William | MacLaren, Andrew | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thamp'ton) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Fenby, T. D. | March, S. | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Townend, A. E. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Murnin, H. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Gillett, George M. | Naylor, T. E. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Gosling, Harry | Oliver, George Harold | Viant, S. P. |
| Greenall, T. | Owen, Major G. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Palin, John Henry | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Grundy, T. W. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Westwood, J. |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. I. |
| Hardie, George D. | Potts, John S. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Harris, Percy A. | Purcell, A. A. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hayday, Arthur | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Windsor, Walter |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Riley, Ben | Wright, W. |
| Hirst, G. H. | Ritson, J. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Saklatvala, Shapurji | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Scurr, John | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Paling. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) |
| Albery, Irving James | Cooper, A. Duff | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Cope, Major Sir William | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Cooper, J. B. | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Hamilton, Sir George |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Cowan, Sir wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Harland, A. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) |
| Balniel, Lord | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Dalkeith, Earl of | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Berry, Sir George | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian |
| Bethel. A. | Dixey, A. C. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Henn, Sir Sydney H. |
| Bird. E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Duckworth, John | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hills, Major John Waller |
| Blundell, F. N. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hilton, Cecil |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Ellis, R. G. | Holt, Captain H. P. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | England, Colonel A. | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. K. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Everard, W. Lindsay | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Buchan, John | Fermoy, Lord | Hurd, Percy A. |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Fielden, E. B. | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan | Finburgh, S. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Burman, J. B. | Ford, Sir P. J. | Iveagh, Countess of |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Forrest, W. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Con'l) |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Fraser, Captain Ian | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Frece, Sir Walter de | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Kindersley, Major Guy M |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Ganzoni, Sir John | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Gates, Percy | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Gitmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. |
| Christie, J. A. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Goff, Sir Park | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) |
§ Question again proposed, "That the words 'five years' stand part of the Clause."
§ Mr. MacLARENOn a point of Order. I want to know exactly where we are in discussing this duty on buttons. I understand that certain recommendations have been made under the Safeguarding of Industries procedure, and I also understand that under the Safeguarding of Industries Act the recommendations of Committees set up to inquire into these matters have to be freely discussed in the House of Commons before a decision is reached as to whether the industries in question should be brought under Safeguarding or not. I want to ask you, Mr. Herbert, if it is quite in order that the dictations of the Safeguarding of Industries Act should be ignored, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should simply adopt a proposal without free discussion in the House, as he has done in this case, thus making such a Debate as we are having to-night purely futile so far as I can see. Am I right in suggesting that the procedure that we are following now is in contradistinction to the decisions laid down under the Safeguarding of Industries Act?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI am not sure whether I quite understand the hon. Member's point, but the Clause in 372 the Finance Bill which deals with this duty is properly founded on a Financial Resolution which has been passed by the House.
§ Mr. MacLARENMay I say, with all respect, that that means that on and after this occasion the Safeguarding of Industries Act as we know it may not be operative at all, but that a Committee may report to the House, and there may be no chance of discussing its recommendations, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer may just adopt the proposals without free discussion in the House.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe Safeguarding of Industries Act is not under discussion at the present moment. So far as I have been able to discover while I have been in the Chair, the recommendations of the Committee have been discussed at very considerable length.
§ Mr. MACKINDERFurther on the point of Order. We have been presented with a White Paper headed "Board of Trade—Safeguarding of Industries," which I presume is to carry out the provisions of the Safeguarding of Industries Act——
§ Mr. MACKINDERIf that is not so, may I ask why, in connection with the 373 Finance Bill, we are presented with a White Paper headed "Board of Trade—Safeguarding of Industries"?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe question of what White Paper has been presented to the hon. Member is not a question of Order.
§ Mr. MACKINDERAre we to understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer can abrogate the Safeguarding of Industries Act by introducing safeguarding proposals into the Finance Bill before the matter has been discussed through the Safeguarding procedure?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI must ask hon. Members, if they purport to rise to points of Order, to be careful that the points they raise are points of Order. [Interruption.] There is no question that this Clause in the Finance Bill, which is properly founded on a Financial Resolution, is in order, and whatever Act may have been passed previously by Parliament is not under discussion at the present time.
§ Mr. MACKINDERAm I to understand that the Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means is accusing us of deliberately——
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Member will please forgive me. What I was anxious to do was to point out to him that the point he was raising about a White Paper was not strictly a point of Order. I have already ruled on the point of Order as to whether the discussion on this Clause is properly in order or not. I did not for a moment wish to accuse him of anything dishonourable or improper.
§ Mr. KELLYI wish to ask that we shall be told something that is absent from the Report. We are asked to give a decision with regard to the operation of this taxation and we have not, even in the speeches of the President of the Board of Trade and the Parliamentary Secretary, been given the information which I presume is in their possession. We are told in this paper that the Committee that sat under the Safeguarding Act considered the application with regard to the button trade, and that it seems that the wages in this, that and the other country are lower than here. Will the Minister say what are the wages and working conditions operating in the 374 button industry in those other countries? Quite recently, in connection with the textile trade, we had an investigation as to hours, wages and conditions of working in one of the countries in the Far East, and if a decision had been taken under the safeguarding methods of inquiry there would have been no doubt as to hon. Members opposite coming to a conclusion immediately that a tax should be imposed. But we have discovered that, despite what appeared to be a difference in wages and conditions, all the advantage was to this country with its higher wages, and better conditions. It is unfair not only to hon. Members of this House but to the country that we should be asked to vote on statements—[Interruption.] I appreciate support from the hon. Member for Penrith (Mr. Dixey) and I hope the statements in this paper are quite satisfactory to him, because they have not the slightest tittle of evidence. These people, who having on the first occasion decided against it, were called together in order to reverse their decision because it did not suit the Government.
Hon. Members opposite malign the workpeople of this country by declaring that we are so far behind in our methods of work and our power of production that we require the artificial aid suggested under safeguarding in order to sell our products. It is unfair to us to be asked to arrive at a decision in the absence of evidence, and I hope the Amendment will be carried. We are opposing the Government in this matter because it is not to the advantage of the people engaged in that industry. The Government are once again acting upon the suggestions made by certain hon. Members opposite—I see some of the leaders of the particular movement in front of me at this moment, particularly the hon. Member for the Moseley Division of Birmingham (Mr. Hannon)—whose only notion of helping industry is by the operation of safeguarding, which has not been to the advantage of any industry in this country.
§ Mr. HANNONAs the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) has been good enough to refer to me, I hope the Committee will permit me to make one or two observations. The hon. Gentleman was good enough to say that the working people of this country had been 375 maligned on this side of the Committee. There is not a shred of foundation for that statement. The real friends of the working men in this country are the people on this side. [Interruption.] During the whole of this Debate the arguments of hon. Gentlemen opposite and particularly of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) have been entirely at variance with their professed friendship for the working people. The suggestion that this Committee had not carefully examined the evidence presented to them and found their conclusions after careful consideration of all the facts produced, is a gross libel on the committee. The committee, in my judgment, deserve the thanks of this House for the way in which they examined this particular application. It is a monstrous violation for hon. Members opposite to charge them with not dealing fairly and squarely with the evidence that was placed before them. When this case was brought before the Committee of Inquiry, two distinguished lawyers represented the importers, the people who opposed this application. I gather from the statements made from the opposite benches to-night that those two distinguished lawyers engaged to defend the hardly-impressed importer who was depriving British working men of their livelihood were not wiser or better able or more competent to conduct his case than the distinguished gentleman who has spoken to-night. There was not an argument produced before the Committee of Inquiry against this application that was not brought forward by these two distinguished lawyers.
If hon. Members look at pages 24 and 25 of the report of the committee, they will see the list of witnesses who gave evidence. Three witnesses were called to give evidence against this application. [Interruption.] I would like to give the Committee the names of the three witnesses, particularly two of the names. One was a gentleman bearing the high aristocratic Anglo-Saxon name of Muddimer. I would like to ask where Muddimer came from. His function was to give evidence for the importer. Another witness rejoiced in the sound Scottish name of Schwerdt. The destinies of the working men of this country must not be placed in the hands of the Muddimers and the 376 Schwerdts. I hope that the speeches of hon. Members opposite will be read by the trade unionists of this country. Anything more discreditable to their professed interest in the working classes of this country it would be difficult to conceive. I hope that this proposal will be carried by the Conservative majority in this House.
§ Mr. MacLARENThis argument about names of a peculiar Kind appearing in these reports is not altogether in keeping with the dialectical skill and dignity of the hon. Member. May I recall to his mind that he and his party were committed to a very large subsidy for the sugar industry and that the promoters of that little scheme included gentlemen bearing such patriotic names as Van Rossum and Dr. Hirsch? I would beg the hon. Member as an Irishman, like myself, not to work up this violent enthusiasm along such a cheapjack track as that. I know that there is no patriotism to beat that of the imported Irishmen into England. If by an accident of nature the hon. Member had been born a great genius in Germany and he bore a name such as those which he has held to opprobrium to-night, the chances are that he might have been a promoter of the sugar subsidy as well as those gentlemen to whom I have referred. I ask the Committee not to take too narrow a point of view in discussing this matter. From the other side of the House recently there has been raised to the dignity of a member of the other House a gentleman who might be held up to odium because of his name and his strong accent.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThat is not a proper remark.
§ Mr. MacLARENI am sorry if I have been offensive. I did not wish to be offensive. I would be the very last to desire to be offensive. I am merely saying that the hon. Members on the other side who use such cheapjack arguments and hold up to odium men with certain names, should not forget that they have colleagues who happen to bear names which might be made fun of. It seems to me that we are entering into a new practice. The Safeguarding of Industries Bill, so far as I knew it, laid 377 it down that a Committee of Inquiry had to be set up and that the recommendations of the Committee should come before this House for discussion, and that after discussion a decision would be come to as to whether that industry should come under safeguarding.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER indicated dissent.
§ Mr. MacLARENThe right hon. Gentleman shakes his head.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThere is no Act of Parliament on the subject. There is a thing called the White Paper, which has no statutory authority whatsoever. It could be ended to-morrow if the Government thought fit, without any breach of Statute. That White Paper lays down the procedure and that procedure is that there shall be an inquiry and that any duty to be imposed shall be imposed by the ordinary machinery of the Finance Bill, which is exactly the procedure which has been followed in this case.
§ Mr. MacLARENI quite appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman said, and I am sorry I made the slip about the Act, but I think the Committee as a whole at least understood that the procedure would be adhered to and there would be a free, frank and open discussion of the proposals of the Committee before any decision of a financial nature was come to. I think that was the general understanding, but when the Chancellor of the Exchequer makes a Budget speech in which he definitely says that the tax shall have effect at once, it rather prejudices any subsequent discussion on the recommendation of the Committee. That is why I raised a point of Order. I think it is a sad pass to which we have come in 1928, that the wisdom of modern statesmen should descend to a tax on buttons and little articles like that. Indeed, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer may go down to posterity as the Woolworth Chancellor who, though a master of economic law, when in adversity finds himself, like Woolworth's, looking for sixpenny articles, and puts another halfpenny on them. That is all I have to say, but I do hope the hon. Gentleman who has 378 just resumed his seat will by this time have cooled down his ardour and will remember that he is an Irishman.
§ Mr. VARLEYAs a humble back bencher who is more or less silent, perhaps I may say a few words on this, and like the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) claim to address those on the other side as fellow-working men. I want to make an appeal that, at any rate, before this imposition is levied, we shall refer the matter back to the committee so that their conclusions may be made a little more convincing. Of the immense mass of stuff with which we Members of Parliament are furnished, I do not suppose any of us would claim that we ever read the whole. If there is a summary we generally turn to that, and I must confess that I had not realised the utter inconclusiveness of this Report until the very damaging analysis recently made by the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Paling). There is scarcely a paragraph in that Report which would carry conviction even to the minds of the most ardent supporter of safeguarding. If I were a supporter of safeguarding myself, I should like to have the satisfaction of knowing that those to whom I had confided this work had, at any rate, convinced themselves of the conclusions with which they supported their recommendations. I have no settled convictions on this matter. Fiscal policy with me is not a fetish or a religion but a matter of expediency—I do not mind making the admission—and as it is a question of expediency I am entitled to ask for the reasons for this proposal. At the present moment, no reasons have been given, and I think the President of the Board of Trade, having regard to the mass of opposition which exists to the policy of safeguarding, and knowing that the committee should be more conclusive in their conclusions than the document before us indicates they were, should withdraw this proposal instead of rushing it through in a Finance Bill at the last moment, and give the committee another chance of reviewing the evidence which was laid before them.
§ Question put, "That the words 'five years' stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 131.
371| Division No. 191.] | AYES. | [10.24 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) | Baker, Walter | Briant, Frank |
| Adamson, W. M. (Start., Cannock) | Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Broad, F. A. |
| Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Barr, J. | Bromfield, William |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Batey, Joseph | Bromley, S. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Brown, Ernest (Leith) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Sexton, James |
| Buchanan, G. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Shinwell, E. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Compton, Joseph | Kelly, W. T. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Connolly, M. | Kennedy, T. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Cove, W. G. | Kirkwood, D. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lansbury, George | Smillie, Robert |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lee, F. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Livingstone, A. M. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lowth, T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Day, Harry | Lunn, William | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Dennison, R. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Strauss, E. A. |
| Dunnico, H. | Mackinder, W. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Edge, Sir William | MacLaren, Andrew | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thamp'ton) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Fenby, T. D. | March, S. | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Townend, A. E. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Murnin, H. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Gillett, George M. | Naylor, T. E. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Gosling, Harry | Oliver, George Harold | Viant, S. P. |
| Greenall, T. | Owen, Major G. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Palin, John Henry | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Grundy, T. W. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Westwood, J. |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. I. |
| Hardie, George D. | Potts, John S. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Harris, Percy A. | Purcell, A. A. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hayday, Arthur | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Windsor, Walter |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Riley, Ben | Wright, W. |
| Hirst, G. H. | Ritson, J. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Saklatvala, Shapurji | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Scurr, John | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Paling. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) |
| Albery, Irving James | Cooper, A. Duff | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Cope, Major Sir William | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Cooper, J. B. | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Hamilton, Sir George |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Cowan, Sir wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Harland, A. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) |
| Balniel, Lord | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Dalkeith, Earl of | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Berry, Sir George | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian |
| Bethel. A. | Dixey, A. C. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Henn, Sir Sydney H. |
| Bird. E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Duckworth, John | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hills, Major John Waller |
| Blundell, F. N. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hilton, Cecil |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Ellis, R. G. | Holt, Captain H. P. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | England, Colonel A. | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. K. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Everard, W. Lindsay | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Buchan, John | Fermoy, Lord | Hurd, Percy A. |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Fielden, E. B. | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan | Finburgh, S. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Burman, J. B. | Ford, Sir P. J. | Iveagh, Countess of |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Forrest, W. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Con'l) |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Fraser, Captain Ian | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Frece, Sir Walter de | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Kindersley, Major Guy M |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Ganzoni, Sir John | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Gates, Percy | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Gitmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. |
| Christie, J. A. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Goff, Sir Park | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) |
| Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Oakley, T. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Loder, J. de V. | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Looker, Herbert William | Penny, Frederick George | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Lougher, Lewis | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Lucas-Tooth. Sir Hugh Vere | Perring, Sir William George | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Philipson, Mabel | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Lynn, Sir R. J. | Pilcher, G. | Styles, Captain H. W. |
| MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Preston, William | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Radford, E. A. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Raine, Sir Walter | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Ramsden, E. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| McLean, Major A. | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Macmillan, Captain H. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) | Ward, Lt.-Col A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| MacRobert, Alexander M. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Remer, J. R. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Rentoul, G. S. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Wells, S. R. |
| Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Meyer, Sir Frank | Ropner, Major L. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Moore, Sir Newton J. | Sandeman, N. Stewart | Womersley, W. J. |
| Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Sandon, Lord | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Morden, Col. W. Grant | Savery, S. S. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Shepperson, E. W. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Skelton, A. N. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | |
| Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Captain Margesson and Sir Victor |
| Nuttall, Ellis | Sprot, Sir Alexander | Warrender. |
| Division No. 192.] | AYES. | [10.53 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Fraser, Captain Ian | Morden, Colonel Walter Grant |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Frece, Sir Walter de | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Albery, Irving James | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Ganzoni, Sir John | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Gates, Percy | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Oakley, T. |
| Apsley, Lord | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Goff, Sir Park | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Perring, Sir William George |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Pilcher, G. |
| Balniel, Lord | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Preston, William |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Radford, E. A. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Hamilton, Sir George | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Bennett, A. J. | Hammersley, S. S. | Ramsden, E. |
| Berry, Sir George | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Bethel, A. | Harland, A. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Harrison, G. J. C. | Remer, J. R. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Haslam, Henry C. | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hills, Major John Waller | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Hilton, Cecil | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Hohler Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Holt, Captain H. P. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Buchan, John | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Sandon, Lord |
| Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D. |
| Burman, J. B. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Savery, S. S. |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hurd, Percy A. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Iveagh, Countess of | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Chapman, Sir S. | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Jephcott, A. R. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Christie, J. A. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Lamb, J. Q. | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Colfox, Major William Phillips | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Sugden, Sir Wilfred |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Couper, J. B. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Loder, J. de V. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Lougher, Lewis | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lumley, L. R. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Wells, S. R. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | McLean, Major A. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Macmillan, Captain H. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Dixey, A. C. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Womersley, W. J. |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Wood, E. (Chester, Staly'b'ge & Hyde) |
| Ellis, R. G. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Wragg, Herbert |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Mever, Sir Frank. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Fermoy, Lord | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | |
| Fielden, E. B. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Finburgh, S. | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Captain Margesson and Mr. Penny. |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Grundy, T. W. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff, Cannock) | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Riley, Ben |
| Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Ritson, J. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hardie, George D. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Harris, Percy A. | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
| Baker, Walter | Hayday, Arthur | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Scurr, John |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sexton, James |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, G. H. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Shinwell, E. |
| Briant, Frank | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Broad, F. A. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Bromfield, William | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Smillie, Robert |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Buchanan, G. | Kelly, W. T. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Kirkwood, D. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lansbury, George | Sutton, J. E. |
| Connolly, M. | Lawrence, Susan | Thorns, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Cove, W. G. | Lawson, John James | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lee, F. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lowth, T. | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lunn, William | Townend, A. E. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Dennison, R. | Mackinder, W. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Duckworth, John | MacLaren, Andrew | Viant, S. P. |
| Dunnico, H. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Edge, Sir William | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | March, S. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| England, Colonel A. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Westwood, J. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Murnin, H. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Fenby, T. D. | Naylor, T. E. | Whiteley, W. |
| Forrest, W. | Oliver, George Harold | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Owen, Major G. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Palin, John Henry | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Gillett, George M. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Windsor, Walter |
| Gosling, Harry | Pethick-Lawrenee, F. W. | Wright, W. |
| Greenall, T. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Potts, John S. | |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Purcell, A. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling. |
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERI beg to move, in page 7, line 34, to leave out the words "thirty-three and one-third," and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes. 226; Noes, 129.
385| Division No. 193.] | AYES. | [11.7 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) |
| Albery, Irving James | Briggs, J. Harold | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Buchan, John | Curzon, Captain Viscount |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Bullock, Captain M. | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. |
| Apsley, Lord | Burman, J. B. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Dawson, Sir Philip |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Carver, Major W. H. | Dean, Arthur Wellesley |
| Balniel, Lord | Cassels, J. D. | Dixey, A. C. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt, R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Eden, Captain Anthony |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Chapman, Sir S. | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Elliot, Major Walter E. |
| Berry, Sir George | Chilcott, Sir Warden | Ellis, R. G. |
| Bethel, A. | Christie, J. A. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Fairfax, Captain J. G. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Collox, Major Wm. Phillips | Falle, Sir Bertram G. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Cooper, A. Duff | Fermoy, Lord |
| Blundell, F. N. | Couper, J. B. | Fielden, E. B. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Finburgh, S. |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Locker-Lampion, Com. O. (Handtw'th) | Ropner, Major L. |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Loder, J. de V. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Lougher, Lewis | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Lumley, L. R. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Lynn, Sir Robert J. | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Gates, Percy | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Sandon, Lord |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Savery, S. S. |
| Goff, Sir Park | McLean, Major A. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Mac Robert, Alexander M. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Somerville. A. A. (Windsor) |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Margesson, Captain D. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Hamilton, Sir George | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Harland, A. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kant) | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Morden, Colonel Walter Grant | Tinne, J. A. |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Hilton, Cecil | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Hohler Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Holt, Captain H. P. | Nuttall, Ellis | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Oakley, T. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Penny, Frederick George | Wells, S. R. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Perring, Sir William George | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Hurd, Percy A. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Pilcher, G. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Power, Sir John Cecil | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Preston, William | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Radford, E. A. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke Now'gton) | Raine, Sir Walter | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Ramsden, E. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Kindorsley, Major Guy M. | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Wragg, Herbert |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Remer, J. R. | |
| Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Rentoul, G. S. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Major Sir William Cope and Captain Wallace. |
| Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | |
| Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Dennison, R. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Duckworth, John | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Dunnico, H. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Edge, Sir William | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) |
| Baker, Walter | England, Colonel A. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Kelly, W. T. |
| Barr, J. | Fenby, T. D. | Kennedy, T. |
| Batey, Joseph | Forrest, W. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Kirkwood, D. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Gibbins, Joseph | Lansbury, George |
| Briant, Frank | Gillett, George M. | Lawrence, Susan |
| Broad, A. F. | Gosling, Harry | Lawson, John James |
| Bromfield, William | Greenall, T. | Lee, F. |
| Bromley, J. | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Lunn, William |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Griffith, F. Kingsley | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) |
| Brawn, James (Ayr and Bute) | Grundy, T. W. | Mackinder, W. |
| Buchanan, G. | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | MacLaren, Andrew |
| Charleton, H. C | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Hardie, George D. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Harris, Percy A. | March, S. |
| Compton, Joseph | Hayday, Arthur | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Connolly, M. | Hayes, John Henry | Murnin, H. |
| Cove, W. G. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Naylor, T. E. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Oliver, George Harold |
| Dalton, Hugh | Hirst, G. H. | Owen, Major G. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Palin, John Henry |
| Day, Harry | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Paling, W. |
| Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Varley, Frank B. |
| Ponsonby, Arthur | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Viant, S. P. |
| Potts, John S. | Sited, Charles H. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Purcell, A. A. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Richardson, B. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Riley, Ben | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Westwood, J. |
| Ritson, J. | Stamford, T. W. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Saklatvala, Shapurji | Strauss, E. A. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Salter, Dr. Alfred | Sutton, J. E. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Scurr, John | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) | Windsor, Walter |
| Sexton, James | Thurtle, Ernest | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Shepherd, Arthur Lewis | Tinker, John Joseph | |
| Shiels, Dr. Drummond | Tomlinson, R. P. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Shinwell, E. | Townend, A. E. | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Whiteley. |
§ Mr. E. BROWNI beg to move, in page 7, line 35, after the word "buttons," to insert the words "other than vegetable ivory buttons."
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 224.
387| Division No. 194.] | AYES. | [11.15 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Grundy, T. W. | Riley, Ben |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Ritson, J. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hardie, George D. | Sakiatvala, Shapurji |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Harris, Percy A. | Sailer, Dr. Alfred |
| Baker, Walter | Hayday, Arthur | Scurr, John |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth. Abertillery) | Hayes, John Henry | Sexton, James |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Batey, Joseph | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hirst, G. H. | Shinwell, E. |
| Bowerman, Bt. Hon. Charles W. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Briant, Frank | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Broad, F. A. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Bromfield, William | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Buchanan, G. | Kelly, W. T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M | Strauss, E. A. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Kirkwood, D. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lansbury, George | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Connolly, M. | Lawrence, Susan | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Cove, W. G. | Lawson, John James | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lee, F. | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lunn, William | Townend, A. E. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Day, Harry | Mackinder, W. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Dennison, R. | MacLaren, Andrew | Viant, S. P. |
| Duckworth, John | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dunnico, H. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Edge, Sir William | March, S. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Westwood, J. |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Murnin, H. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| England, Colonel A. | Oliver, George Harold | Whiteley, W. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Owen, Major G. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Forrest, W. | Palin, John Henry | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Paling, W. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Windsor, Walter |
| Gillett, George M. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Gosling, Harry | Ponsonby, Arthur | |
| Greenall, T. | Potts, John S. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Purcell, A. A. | Sir Robert Hutchison and Mr. Fenby. |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Birchall, Major J. Dearman |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Atholl, Duchess of | Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Balniel, Lord | Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) |
| Albery, Irving James | Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Blundell. F. N. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Boothby, R. J. G. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Bennett, A. J. | Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. |
| Apsley, Lord | Berry, Sir George | Braithwaite, Major A. N. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Bethel, A. | Briggs, J. Harold |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Preston, William |
| Buchan, John | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Radford, E. A. |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan | Hilton, Cecil | Ramsden, E. |
| Burman, J. B. | Holt, Captain H. P. | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Chariot D. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Raid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Remer, J. R. |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hume, Sir G. H. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Hurd, Percy A. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Christie, J. A. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Jephcott, A. R. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Couper, J. B. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Sandon, Lord |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Lamb, J. Q. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Savery, S. S. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Skelton, A. N. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Loder, J. de V. | Spender-Way, Colonel H. |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Long, Major Eric | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Lougher, Lewis | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Dixey, A. C. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Lumley, L. R. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Ellis, R. G. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | McLean, Major A. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Falie, Sir Bertram G. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Fermoy, Lord | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Fielden, E. B. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Finburgh, S. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Margesson, Captain D. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Meyer, Sir Frank | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Ganzonl, Sir John | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wells, S. R. |
| Gates, Percy | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Goff, Sir Park | Morden, Colonel Walter Grant | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Wolmor, Viscount |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Nuttall, Ellis | Womersley, W. J. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Oakley, T. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Hamilton, Sir George | Penny, Frederick George | Wragg, Herbert |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Yerburgb, Major Robert D. T. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Perring, Sir William George | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Harland, A. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Pilcher, G. | Major Sir George Hennessy and |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Power, Sir John Cecil | Major Sir William Cope. |
§ Mr. E. BROWNI beg to move, in page 7, line 35, after the word "buttons," to insert the words "other than shell buttons."
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 125; Noes, 222.
391| Division No. 195.] | AYES. | [11.25 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Broad, F. A. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Barr, J. | Bromfield, William |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Batey, Joseph | Bromley, J. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Brown, Ernest (Leith) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) |
| Baker, Walter | Briant, Frank | Buchanan, G. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Shinwell, E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Connolly, M. | Kelly, W. T. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Cove, W. G. | Kennedy, T. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Kirkwood. D. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lansbury, George | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Day, Harry | Lawrence, Susan | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Dennison, R. | Lawson, John James | Stamford, T. W. |
| Dunnico, H. | Lee, F | Stewart, J. (St. Rolfox) |
| Edge, Sir William | Lunn, William | Strauss, E. A. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Mackinder, W. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Forrest, W. | MacLaren, Andrew | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Gillett, George M. | March, S. | Townend, A. E. |
| Gosling, Harry | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Greenall, [...]. | Murnin, H. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Oliver, George Harold | Viant, S. P. |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Palin, John Henry | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Paling, W. | Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Pethick, Lawrence, F. W. | Westwood, J. |
| Hardie, George D. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wheatlcy, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Potts, John S. | Whiteley, W. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Purcell, A. A. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Hayes, John Henry | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Riley, Ben | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Ritson, J. | Windsor, Walter |
| Hirst, G. H. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hirst, N. (Bradford, South) | Saklatvala, Shapurji | |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Salter, Dr. Alfred | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Scurr, John | Mr. Fenby and Major Owen |
| Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Sexton, James | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cope, Major Sir William | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Couper, J. B. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Harland, A. |
| Albery, Irving James | Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. |
| Apsley, Lord | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Dalkeith, Earl of | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Hilton, Cecil |
| Balniel, Lord | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Holt, Capt. H. P. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Dawson, Sir Philip | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Dixey, A. C. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Berry, Sir George | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) |
| Bethel, A. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Ellis, R. G. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Fermoy, Lord | Kindersley, Major G. M. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Fielden, E. B. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Finburgh, S. | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Ford, Sir P. J. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. |
| Buchan, John | Fraser, Captain Ian | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Frece, Sir Walter de | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) |
| Burman, J. B. | Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Ganzoni, Sir John | Loder, J. de V. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Gates, Percy | Long, Major Eric |
| Cassels, J. D. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Lougher, Lewis |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Glyn. Major R. G. C. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Goff, Sir Park | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Lumley, L. R. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Lynn, Sir R. J. |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Christie, J. A. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | McLean, Major A. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hamilton, Sir George | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| MacRobert, Alexander M. | Ramsden, E. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Held, D. D. (County Down) | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Margesson, Capt. D. | Remer, J. R. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Rentoul, G. S. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Titchfield. Major the Marquess of |
| Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Meyer, Sir Frank. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Ropner, Major L. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Moore, Sir Newton J. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Sandeman, N. Stewart | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Morden, Col. W. Grant | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Wells, S. R. |
| Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Sanderson, Sir Frank | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Sandon, Lord | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Nuttall, Ellis | Savery, S. S. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Oakley, T. | Shepperson, E. W. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon Hugh | Skelton. A. N. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Penny, Frederick George | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Perring, Sir William George | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Sprot, Sir Alexander | Wragg, Herbert |
| Pilcher, G. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Power, Sir John Cecil | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Preston, William | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) | |
| Radford, E. A. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Raine, Sir Walter | Storry-Deans, R. | Captain Bowyer and Captain Wallace. |
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 7, line 36, at the end, to insert the words:
(2) During a period or five years beginning on the thirteenth day or June, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, a customs duty of an amount equal to twenty-five per cent. of the value of the goods shall be payable on wrought enamelled hollow-ware imported into the United Kingdom.
§ Mr. HARRISOn a point of Order. I suggest that this should be brought in as a new Clause, since it entirely changes the character of the Clause. The Clause is headed "Customs duty on buttons," and I suggest that this proposal should be put in the form of a new Clause, and not as an Amendment.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTEROn that point of Order, I venture to suggest that this follows exactly the precedent of a previous Bill, where safeguarding duties have been combined together in one Clause, and I think that that is for the general convenience, because the Subsection which applies to the various provisions of the Finance Act dealing with drawbacks and so on can be conveniently made applicable to both duties. This precisely follows the previous precedent, the only difference being that the two Financial Resolutions were passed separately.
§ Sir ROBERT HAMILTONI do not quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman, because the fact is not altered that 392 this proposal deals with an entirely different subject. Surely hollow-ware should be dealt with in a separate Clause, and should not be brought in as a Subsection under the heading "Customs duties on buttons." That is obviously wrong.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe point which has been raised was very carefully considered before I came into the Chair to-night, and my opinion is that it is quite in order to put these two duties together; and there is a certain justification, from the point of view of convenience, for doing so, in view of the way in which they are linked together by Subsection (3), which refers to the machinery under which they are collected. The fact that the marginal note in the present draft of the Bill refers only to buttons does not affect the matter, and cannot be taken into consideration at all.
§ Sir R. HAMILTONMay we have the marginal note?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe marginal note will be printed in due course. The marginal note is no part of the Bill.
§ Mr. MACLEANCan the President of the Board of Trade show the connection between buttons and hollow-ware?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is not in order in dealing with that now.
§ Mr. MACLEANThe right hon. Gentleman has not given any explanation as far as I know.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Member must not ask the right hon. Gentleman that question at present. He may get an opportunity of doing so presently.
§ Mr. E. BROWNSurely we are to have an explanation from the President of the Board of Trade? We had a preliminary discussion on Friday under very great disadvantage, because the report of the Committee was only available on Wednesday night and we came on Friday morning and found the duty was there.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI did not intend any discourtesy. We discussed it for five hours on Friday and I inflicted a very long speech on the House.
§ Mr. SNOWDENIt would be far more interesting if we could have a speech on this from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is a new experience to have the Chancellor of the Exchequer present at a Debate on safeguarding. Hitherto he has invariably shown his contempt for this pettifogging legislation by ostentatiously leaving the House whenever a question of this sort came up for consideration, I submit that we have a right to insist that he should take charge of this new Clause. It has passed out of the category of safeguarding. It has now become purely a revenue matter that the name neither of the President of the Board of Trade nor any other Member of the Government, except the representatives of the Treasury is on the back of the Bill. This is purely a financial proposal. It does not concern the Board of Trade now in the slightest degree. It is the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take charge of it, and, therefore, I must ask him, very respectfully, to get up—[Laughter.] I do not know why hon. Members should laugh. I am always very respectful to right hon. Gentlemen. This is his job, I submit. I could tell a story about it. I am sure I am voicing the desire and expectation of every Member of the Committee when I say we are waiting in pleasurable anticipation to hear the right hon. Gentleman take charge of this Clause.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI am in charge of everything included in the Budget of the 394 year and I am responsible for everything in the Finance Bill. I accept the fullest responsibility for every proposal it contains. But since when, I should like to know, has an individual Member of the Opposition the right to dictate to the Government how they shall use such forces as are at their disposal or how they shall transact their business? The process of long and intricate discussion, when one topic succeeds another and one Amendment follows swiftly on another, has necessarily to be divided between a number of Ministers if full justice is to be done to each proposition; and the Committee is to have the guidance and services of Ministers which it no doubt requires. But, in regard to the general merits or the matter, this follows the procedure which we have appointed and prescribed by the White Paper. So far from hon. Gentlemen opposite having any ground for complaint that this procedure has led to an undue adoption of Safeguarding, there has been a very strong feeling among the party which, at any rate, is dominant in this House of Commons that the procedure of the White Paper has very rigidly and narrowly restricted the Safeguarding which it was intended by Parliament should be imposed and enforced. For my part, I would say that owing to the collapse of the Liberal party, and owing to the very shaky knowledge of economic subjects possessed by the Labour party, the Free Trade forces in this House are in a state of collapse, and they are exceedingly fortunate [...]n not being asked to consent to much more stimulating propositions than those I have made.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERThe Chancellor of the Exchequer chooses to be a little humorous about the economics of some people in this House. If he had paid attention, as a well-known exponent of Free Trade himself, to statements that have been made in the country by his colleagues in the Cabinet, he would have seen that it was a good thing, at any rate, for the country at large that there are some people on this side of the House who still retain great concern for the consumer in this country. Although the Chancellor of the Exchequer is forgetting the reputation of his past and is failing to undertake the proper duties of Chancellor of the Exchequer at the present time, the Minister of Health has just been making peregrinations through- 395 out the country and has told the people at his meetings that, after all, what is really wanted is to teach the country to walk towards protection instead of running. The kind of Measure for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as well as his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, now makes himself responsible is part of the programme mentioned by the Minister of Health for teaching people to walk towards protection instead of running. I wonder how the Chancellor of the Exchequer can square that with his Free Trade convictions? We shall be very interested to hear what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to say upon this matter in the country. One sees his very brilliant dialectical utterances from time to time——
§ Colonel HOWARD-BURYOn a point of Order. What has this to do with enamelled hollow-ware?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Gentleman is leading up to it gradually.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI hope that I am to be allowed to indulge in what is always the luxury of replying to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He certainly dealt with this matter when he was speaking. We shall watch with very great interest his subsequent speeches in the country, and see what he really has to say about the details of these Safeguarding Duties, of which this is one and of which he is so utterly contemptuous. The case which has not been explained to the Committee by the President of the Board of Trade, and which ought to have been explained, because he gave such short notice to the House, is one of the poorest cases ever put up for a Safeguarding Duty. I protest against the growing practice of the fiscal proposals of the Government being allowed to leak out. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has had some difficulty this afternoon in replying on the question of sugar and as to why information was allowed to leak out. On Friday week I drew attention to the fact that the report of a Committee, dated the 19th May, recommending a Duty on hollow-ware to the extent of 25 per cent. was made known in all its details to the trade, and a copy of the report was only made known to this 396 House, who had to decide the matter, on the evening of the 6th June. On the 8th June we were required to pass judgment as a House of Commons upon a fairly important fiscal proposal. We are gradually seeing a change from the old tradition in regard to the Treasury and are seeing a continuous practice growing up of people being allowed to obtain information beforehand of what is going to be the proposal of the Government in regard to levying taxation. We cannot too strongly utter a protest on a matter which affects the privilege of Members of this House, who are the custodians of the public interests. In their report of the 1928 inquiry the Committee say, in paragraph 12:
The Applicants considered that on this question the Committee's previous Report was favourable to them. This contention was not challenged by the Opposition nor was any evidence submitted to indicate any alteration in the position as regards the prices of imported goods as compared with those of the home products.If we are to assume from paragraph 12 that the whole basis of the Committee's second report, making a recommendation for a duty, was that the opponents of the application regarded the Committee's previous report as favourable, will the President of the Board of Trade produce the first formal statement of the opposition which was submitted to the second inquiry in 1928 by the opponents. Is it not a fact that in that presentation of the formal statement of the case there was a specific objection raised, which was completely different from the conclusion arrived at in paragraph 12 of the Committee's second report? My hon. Friends have already asked in the case of the previous Duty that we should have the evidence laid. I am not hopeful that we shall get the complete evidence laid in regard to this application, but I think in view of the statement in paragraph 12 we are entitled to ask that we should have the statement that was submitted by the opponents, which statement is clearly contrary to the report of the committee in paragraph 12. The report of the committee is the result of a second inquiry. The first inquiry was held in 1926, and on four points of the six or seven on which the committee has to be satisfied before it makes a favourable report, they found that a case had not been made out for a duty. Within 18 months of that report having been re- 397 ceived by the Government, the Board of Trade consent to a second inquiry being held.I am at a loss to understand why on the evidence submitted a second inquiry should have been permitted, because on the figures which are contained in the second report there is certainly no such violent change in the position as would ever have justified the reopening of the matter by the granting of a second inquiry. The figures of the imports which are contained on the fifth page of the second report do not show such extremely abnormal figures that a second inquiry should have been necessary at all. If one compares the general statistics which appear in Appendix A, not only for 1926 or 1927, but right back to pre-War years, I think it is fairly plain that there was no very fundamental change which would have justified the second inquiry at all. I do not want to go over all the ground of my objection to the report of this committee which we discussed the other Friday, but I do want to say that it is just the kind of case to illustrate what we have said so many times in regard to the safeguarding of industries. It proves to us the utter unreliability of evidence submitted to a committee of this kind, which is not a judicial committee—evidence which is not submitted on oath, but by a particular interest which desires to be the special beneficiary of the State.
§ Mr. HANNONWhat special legislation is there?
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI suppose there are other interests in the community besides these people? Those who have to pay the tax in order to give this protection are the general community. I suppose they are not to be taken into account as having any interest in the matter? You are imposing a tax of 25 per cent. to make these particular people the beneficiaries of the State. That is the position. Those of us who hold the Free Trade position have never sought to deny that if you can take out one industry quite separately without the others and give it special protection you may give specific benefits to that industry so long as you are not bringing in a genera tariff. The report of this committee proves conclusively that when you get a procedure of this kind set up, with evidence taken before a committee which 398 is not of a judicial character, and not taken upon oath, in order to obtain special benefits for only a limited section of the community, you find that the evidence submitted is absolutely without any reliability at all.
Take the figures of imports which were given for the early years in the table of the report. If you take the first report issued in 1926, you get certain figures of production of the whole industry. In the case of the second report the committee had to draw attention to the fact that there were new figures available with regard to the year 1924, because they had the advantage of the results of the Census of Production. You find that the people who submitted the case for a duty to the original committee in 1926 had apparently deliberately and with wilful intent understated their figures of production in order to persuade the committee to recommend a duty. The figures were absolutely disproved to the extent of only about 40 per cent. by the authorised figures obtained from the Census of Production. If this is the kind of evidence upon which a committee of this character makes recommendations to this House for the imposition of a duty, it is high time that more and more of my friends should press for the complete evidence which is laid before these committees to be made available to the House of Commons.
§ Mr. RADFORDDoes the hon. Member suggest that the opponents have not had an opportunity of laying full evidence before the Committee?
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI suppose if an opportunity existed they would do so, if they had time. I have never concealed my connection with the co-operative movement; it is part of my life. We have to do with producers and consumers, and there have been 49 applications for safeguarding in connection with industries with which we are concerned, 36 of which failed. But how can people engaged in one industry be expected to prepare detailed evidence connected with 36 separate inquiries in a comparatively short time?
§ Mr. RADFORDI never raised the question of the co-operative movement, but surely it is such a large concern that it is as easy for them to deal with 36 separate cases as it is for a small concern to deal with one?
§ Mr. ALEXANDERThat sounds quite easy until you get into the actual business. It is not the argument advanced by the big amalgamations and large concerns when we were discussing the Companies Bill. They said that it was quite impossible to give details of their business at short notice, and if it was quite impossible for large financial companies to supply information under the Companies Bill it is difficult for the co-operative movement to provide technical evidence and statistics in the case of 36 separate inquiries at short notice. This attempt to walk towards a general tariff is a policy out of Bedlam. The people who object to it have no opportunity of stating their case. Those opponents who do appear have a note made of their evidence, and there is nothing but sneers from hon. Members opposite because they happen to belong to a class who know something of the shipping trade, the export trade and the entrepot trade. But there is a very wide section of the community who have a right to be considered, and that is the general consumer——
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI must call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that both he and the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Radford) are beginning to wander far away from the immediate subject of the Amendment.
§ 12 m.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI am afraid that, as a result of the interjection, I have been developing an argument on the general procedure of safeguarding rather than on the specific Amendment. I will leave that. In this case, no evidence was given to the Committee on behalf of the consumers. The fact is that the way in which the thing is done makes it almost impossible for the general consumer to be heard, and we have to undertake in this House the task of stating the case for the consumer against impositions of this kind. We are now to have a tax of 25 per cent. put upon these utensils that are used by every housewife. It is an addition to what is already a very heavy and growing burden on the housewife. I referred yesterday to the Chancellor's special "down" on the housewife. This is another illustration of it. The Government put a 25 per cent. tax on enamelled hollow-ware, and, if I am rightly informed, 400 in case there may be trouble the Government are willing to consider a duty on aluminium ware also. That is to be added to the tax on the breakfast cup and saucer and the cutlery.
§ Mr. WOMERSLEYAnd no increase in price.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI shall be very glad to prove that in regard to translucent pottery imported from Czechoslovakia you cannot buy any article at the same price as that at which it used to be bought. The consumer has to pay 33 to 40 per cent. more since the duty has been imposed.
§ Mr. WOMERSLEYNot in my shop. The wholesale price of the British white and gold china cup and saucer has dropped sixpence per dozen since the safeguarding duties were put on.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERYou cannot make any charges of that kind. You have only to refer to the trade inquiries that are being held to be forced to withdraw that suggestion. [Interruption.] It is no good making that suggestion, in view of what has been proved at Government inquiry after Government inquiry. I am saying specifically that you cannot obtain anywhere to-day imported translucent china (upon which a duty of 28s. a cwt. has been put) unless you pay 35 to 40 per cent. more for a particular article than you paid before the duty was imposed.
§ Mr. WOMERSLEYLet me say that 21-piece tea sets, for which I paid 7s. 6d. before the duty was added, I have had offered this week at the old price. I was offered eight cases.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI shall be very glad to have particulars of that offer.
§ The CHAIRMANThis seems to refer to a former duty. We cannot now go into the details of the working of other duties.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI am sorry if I have been led away by the interruptions of the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley). Perhaps the hon. Member will get up and say that there is never going to be any increase in the price of enamelled hollow-ware after the imposi- 401 tion of the duty? My information is that already the wholesale price for imported enamelled hollow-ware is up. What is the object of putting on a duty unless it is to raise the price of the imported article in order to protect the home industry? When the Chancellor of the Exchequer deals with these matters he never makes any apology for it; he always tells my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) that he does not deny that duties are passed on to the consumer. That is what is being done in this case. It is quite evident that the amount of this duty is being passed on already in the price of the article, and it will continue to be passed on to the consumer. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, on another matter, has said that it ought not to be assumed that a duty always meant an increased price. The hon. Gentleman said he resented the assumption which was always made in that respect. I think we are entitled to resent the assumption that we can always trust the Protectionists and productive industry in this matter, and that, if we only give them a duty, we are sure to have a reduction, or, at any rate, no increase in prices. The effect of Protection in this country and other countries has always, in the long run, proved to be in the opposite direction.
The imposition of this duty, in my judgment, is a violation of the pledge or rather a continuation of the violation of the pledge of the Government with regard to Protection. It is true they are doing it under the name of "Safeguarding." It is true that they can pick out, here and there, a word or two in the announcement made to the country in 1924 about safeguarding, in seeking to justify their action, but, as a fact, we have seen in the last three or four years a progress by the Government towards Protection which has no precedent in the history of this country for 70 or 80 years. We have moved more rapidly towards a general tariff in the last three years than anybody, 20 years ago, could possibly have imagined, although hon. Members opposite may think that the rate of progress is much too slow for them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad to have that confirmation of my view. Although some hon. Members may still say that there has been no violation of the pledges of the Prime Minister in this 402 respect, it is plain from the general results of this taxation—which now has to be provided by the consumer to the extent of £35,000,000 to £40,000,000 a year more than in 1924—that we have made a much bigger jump towards general Protection than the people imagine. For all these reasons I oppose the duty.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI shall confine myself to this particular duty. As regards the charge that there is any breach of a pledge the hon. Gentleman appears to forget the positive pledge that in certain events we would put on safeguarding duties. I have not the least doubt that if the Government had withheld from the House of Commons proposals for such duties, where those proposals have been made in the course of this Parliament, then, indeed, we should have been guilty of a breach of a pledge—a positive pledge which we gave to the country and on which the country returned us. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] I do not think there is a single person in the Committee or in the country, who, in his heart of hearts still believes that the Prime Minister has not strictly carried out his pledge.
The hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) has employed certain arguments against this duty, and every one of those arguments is ill-founded. He began by suggesting that—apparenly in the Government Department—there had been some leakage in connection with the report on this duty. He made the charge before and having withdrawn it as a charge, he now repeats it as a suggestion. There has been no leakage on the part of any Government Department. If I wished to give away the fact of a duty having been recommended—a thing I should never dream of doing—the last people I should select would be the importers. They are the people to whom the hon. Gentleman thinks the Government, for some reason or another, gave special information in this case. The suggestion is so fantastic that I am surprised that he makes it, even at this hour of the evening. What happened, apparently, was that some of his importer friends, not being as convinced of the solidity of their case against this duty as he would, by his speech to-night, have us believe, anticipated that a duty would be recommended, and they hast- 403 ened to import as quickly as they could. Surely that is a very good reason, not for delaying proposing the duty to this House, but for inviting the House to pass the duty at the earliest possible moment; and I am glad to know that the House did impose that duty on the day on which it was proposed.
Then the hon. Gentleman said: Would we lay the opponents' statement of the case? No, Sir. Then he said: "I do not suppose we shall see the evidence." We know that no evidence was produced at a previous stage of this Debate. What do the Committee say? They do not say, "On the evidence we find so and so"; they say that there was no evidence produced by the opponents that the situation had changed. I do not care what people put into their statement of claim. Everybody connected with the processes of the Law Courts knows that it is not what people put into the statement of claim or into the defence that counts; it is what is produced in evidence that counts, and, if the opponents had had the least chance of proving that their case was right in this respect, does not everybody suppose that they would have produced evidence? Because they knew that there was no case, they never gave any evidence.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERBecause the Committee say that.
§ Mr. MACLEANMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman, as he attaches so much importance to the evidence rather than to the statement of claim, whether he will now submit the evidence to this Committee, which is actually the jury which has to give a decision?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI have already dealt with that point. This is what the Committee said:
This contention was not challenged by the Opposition, nor was any evidence submitted to indicate any alteration in prices.I suggest to the Committee that if prices had altered, and if any case could have been made out by the Opposition, of course the Opposition would have tendered evidence upon that subject. That hon. Members opposite do not consider inquiries in safeguarding matters as 404 valuable as I think at one time they did is a matter which no doubt calls for consideration in the future. The hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) then said: "Why was the second inquiry granted? There was no ground for granting the second inquiry." A new inquiry was granted because a prima facie case had been established—and it was afterwards proved—that the facts had changed. The facts had changed on employment; there were 1,000 fewer people employed in this industry than there were two years previously. That is what the Trade Unions told us. I suppose a thousand more people out of work is no change at all, in the view of hon. Members opposite. There were 1,000 more men out of work, and, when the Government does something to put those people into work, I suggest that hon. Members opposite should support us instead of creating obstruction. Many thousands of men have been put into employment through Safeguarding. [Interruption.] I will give the Committee evidence now that people have been put into employment in this industry. The Welsh Tin Plate and Stamping Company, one of the largest companies engaged in this trade, say, first of all that no advance has been made in their prices, and they add:It might he interesting to record that we have already experienced such an improvement in the demand since the imposition of the duty that we have increased the number of our furnaces at work, and consequently have given employment to a substantial number of idle men.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe firm is the Welsh Tin Plate and Metal Stamping Company, but does it really matter what firm it is, if they put a few more into work?
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI should like to have an explanation of the statement that there was an increase of a thousand in the unemployed in the industry, having regard to paragraph 13 of the Report, which says that in 1926 the number was 3,360, and in 1927 it was 2,980.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERIn 1925, which was the critical year, the number employed was 3,900, and in 1927 it was 2,980. Let me be perfectly correct; 920 405 more people have been thrown out of employment.
§ Mr. SEXTONIs the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that 35 per cent. of the men who handle these imports are now out of employment?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERNo, not a bit of it. I have no doubt about this, that if you get the work done in this country, more people will come into work, and more people are in work, not only in this industry, but in the steel trade, because British steel is practically exclusively used in this trade; and if there are one or two less people employed in some port because the imports are less, there are more people employed in steel works and in rolling mills. On balance, I say without hesitation that not only are some people put directly into work by reason of the step which the House took, but that indirectly, more people are put into work also. Another reason why the circumstances had changed was that the volume of imports had entirely altered. In 1926, the volume was 7,195 tons. In 1927 it was 9,690 tons. In the first four months of this year it is at the rate of 10,500 tons a year.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERHow does the right hon. Gentleman calculate that last figure?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERBy multiplying the figures for the four months by three.
§ Mr. E. BROWNWill the right hon. Gentleman give the figure for May, the fifth month?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe month after the duty came in? Of course, it was very small. [Interruption.]
§ The CHAIRMANI would remind hon. Members that they can speak more than once in Committee, and that these points had better be put by speech rather than by interjections.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI will leave out the first four months of this year; I will make a present of that. I will not depend on that, but on the difference between the 7,200 in 1926 and the 9,700 in 1927. Those figures are good enough for my purpose. At the time of 406 the Coalition Government, with a Liberal Prime Minister, the duty was imposed when the import was only 7,700 tons.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERAnd 66 per cent. of the imports come from Germany to-day. I am sure that I could carry two-thirds of that party with me in favour of this duty. Then the hon. Gentleman cast a perfectly unnecessary aspersion on the honesty of the firms who gave evidence; I am not in the least surprised. He said that they have deliberately misled the Committee as to their production. They did nothing of the sort. They under-estimated—and I have no reason to suppose that they did not do it honestly—the production of other firms from whom they had no information. When you take the certified figures the case is proved up to the hilt. The hon. Member suggested that the Committee were relying on figures which were proved to be erroneous; that they took any figures which were submitted to them. But that was not at all how the Committee proceeded. The Committee called for certified figures, and it is on certified figures that this Committee are now invited to act. Then we have had the usual argument that prices will be adversely affected. There is no evidence that the price of the British article will go up, and it has not gone up. There may have been one or two cases in which the price of the foreign article has gone up—there may have been, but it is interesting to note that the argument advanced by a number of importers against the imposition of a duty was that in the case of the retail shop there was really no difference in price between the British article and the foreign article, because come middlemen got a larger profit out of dealing in the foreign article than in the British. It may have been that in one or two cases where a middleman was making a large profit out of a very cheap foreign article the cheapness of which was not passed on to the consumer at all, higher prices are being charged, but the consumer is in no way damnified in this matter. The consumer is going to get the good British article at the same price as he got it before. For all these reasons I invite the Committee to support the duty.
§ Mr. SNOWDENI beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
We have now reached the time at which the House usually rises, and if the Minister responsible for this Bill had been in his place I should have asked him how far he intended to go to-night. But as there is no Minister on the Treasury Bench who is able to answer that question I am moving to report Progress.
§ The CHAIRMANI see that on this Clause a Motion to report Progress has already been negatived.
§ Mr. SNOWDENNo, Sir, not on this section of the Clause. The last Motion to report Progress was moved when we were dealing with buttons. A demand had been made from these benches that the evidence on which the Committee had acted should be produced, and it was in order to allow the Government an opportunity of producing that evidence that we made that Motion. I am moving this Motion upon a different section of the
§ Clause and for an entirely different purpose—to ascertain how far the Government intend going.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERIt really is necessary to make considerable progress with this Bill to-night. Before the Chancellor of the Exchequer went out I had been discussing with him how far he thought it would be necessary to go. There are a large number of important-new Clauses to be taken to-morrow and he feels that it is essential to make considerable further progress with the Bill.
§ Mr. HARRISThe proposal we are discussing was only introduced on Friday last, and now it is going to be pushed through after midnight. I think the country is entitled to have a new tax of this character discussed in the daylight.
§ Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 81, Noes, 181.
409| Division No. 196.] | AYES. | [12.27 a.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, Witt) | Hayday, Arthur | Purcell, A. A. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hayes, John Henry | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, G. H. | Scurr, John |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Sexton, James |
| Bromfield, William | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Buchanan, G. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Compton, Joseph | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Kelly, W. T. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Dalton, Hugh | Kennedy, T. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Day, Harry | Kirkwood, D. | Townend, A. E. |
| Dunnico, H. | Lansbury, George | Varley, Frank B. |
| Edge, Sir William | Lawrence, Susan | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Lawson, John James | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Lunn, William | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Mackinder, W. | Westwood, J. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | MacLaren, Andrew | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Gillett, George M. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Whiteley, W. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Murnin, H. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Oliver, George Harold | Windsor, Walter |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Paling, W. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | |
| Hardie, George D. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Harris, Percy A. | Potts, John S. | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. B. Smith. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Bullock, Captain M. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Butler, Sir Geoffrey |
| Albery, Irving James | Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Carver, Major W. H. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Blundell, F. N. | Cassels, J. D. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Boothby, R. J. G. | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Chapman, Sir S. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Chilcott, Sir Warden |
| Balniel, Lord | Briggs, J. Harold | Christie, J. A |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Briscoe, Richard George | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George |
| Bethel, A. | Buchan, John | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hudson, Capt, A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Remer, J. R. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Couper, J. B. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Ropner, Major L. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Kennedy, A. H. (Preston) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lamb, J. Q. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Loder, J. de V. | Savery, S. S. |
| Dixey, A. C. | Long, Major Eric | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Laugher, Lewis | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Ellis, R. G. | Lumley, L. R. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | McLean, Major A. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Fermoy, Lord | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Finburgh, S. | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Margesson, Captain D. | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Tinne, J. A. |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Meyer, Sir Frank | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Goff, Sir Park | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Hamilton, Sir George | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Wells, S. R. |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Nuttall, Ellis | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Harland, A. | Oakley, T. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Penny, Frederick George | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Wormersely, W. J. |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Headlam, Lieut. Colonel C. M. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Power, Sir John Cecil | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Preston, William | |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Radlord, E. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Raine, Sir Walter | Captain Wallace and Sir Victor |
| Hilton, Cecil | Ramsden, E. | Warrender. |
| Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
§ Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ Mr. HARRISI wish the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had had the courtesy to listen to the very eloquent speech of the President of the Board of Trade because he would have received a lot of illumination from it. The reason he gave for the introduction of these Safeguarding Duties and the argument he gave in their favour was that they would give a great deal of additional employment in the steel trade. We have now had four years of safeguarding, and ten years after the war there are a quarter of a million unemployed.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member must confine himself to this particular duty.
§ Mr. HARRISThe statement was made by the right hon. Gentleman, who assisted 410 in the debate on these duties, that the condition of this trade was the result of the importation from abroad of enamelled hollow-ware, and that it increased unemployment. But in his own report he shows that in 1913 the imports were 12,458 tons, and in 1927, the peak year, the year singled out, they dropped from 12,000 odd tons to 9,705 tons. That does not seem to indicate that the depression in this industry is due entirely to foreign imports. He made a great point of, and quoted with satisfaction, the fact that the Liberal Coalition Government had imposed the Safeguarding Duties, but he knew very well that the reason for the imposition of the duties in those days was that it was desired to protect this country from the effects of depreciated currencies. That was the justification at that time. The German mark was it zero, and there was a policy advocated of protecting this country from 411 goods imported from countries where the currency was so much depreciated. The present duty is not due to depreciated currency. It is not a fair argument to jump back to the previous occasion when this duty was imposed. It is quite reasonable to say that there was another report—the 1926 report—where there was a very complete inquiry into the problem, and that the Committee definitely came to the conclusion that the duty was not necessary or justifiable. The real change was that there was a minority report. One member of the Committee, a University Professor—University Professors have a lot of leisure—spent his time trying to build up a case to justify the duty which in 1926 he wanted to impose.
The real reason why there is depreciation in the industry is not so much because of foreign imports, but because aluminium ware is taking the place of enamelled ware. It is found to be cleaner, and safer in use. That more than anything else has caused the depreciation in the enamelled ware industry not only in this country but all over the world. As a matter of fact, it is a highly specialised industry. It is shown in the report that these goods come from all parts of Europe, and that certain countries specialise in the manufacture of certain specialities. Some make frying pans, some saucepans, some teapots. One of the reasons why there has been a decrease, in the number of men employed has been the closing down of two factories. In closing down at least one of these factories, the proprietor pointed out that he was trying to produce too big a range of articles, and that he could not compete with the standardised mass production not only abroad but in this country. This firm had branches at Wolverhampton and Glasgow. The proprietors made clear that it was due to the fact that the organisation no longer suited modern requirements and that for that reason the factory was closed down. I object to this duty because it is a tax upon the consumer. It is going to make a difference, not to the most expensive articles, but to articles at a cheaper rate, articles in general use in poor households. [Interruption]. I do not understand the joke of the hon. Member for Penrith 412 (Mr. Dixey), and perhaps he will get up to tell the Committee what it is.
§ Mr. HANNON rose——[Interruption].
§ Mr. HARRIS rose——[Interruption].
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) resumed his seat and the hon. Member for Penrith (Mr. Dixey) did not rise, whereupon the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) rose.
§ Mr. THURTLEThe hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) sat down out of courtesy for the hon. Member for Penrith (Mr. Dixey). May the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green not be allowed to proceed with his speech.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green can make another one. I do not apprehend where the courtesy came in. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green sat down before the hon. Member for Penrith showed any disposition to rise.
§ Mr. HARRISThe hon. Member for Penrith (Mr. Dixey) interrupted. I wanted to give him a chance of expressing what he desired to the Committee. He was constantly interrupting.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) cannot now rise again. He distinctly resumed his seat without the hon. Member for Penrith rising.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODOn a point of Order. The interruptions in the speech of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) were of such a character that it was impossible for him to carry on. There is no doubt about that. He sat down seemingly at the desire of the other side and then up got the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon). He got up, and because he did that, the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green lost his opportunity. I do not see why you should allow that to go on. You may think I am doing right or wrong, but you, Sir, have ruled wrongly.
§ The CHAIRMANI do not think the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green will suffer injury in the end. He may yet have an opportunity of rising. In the meantime, the hon. Member for Moseley has risen.
§ Mr. HANNONI did not in the least intend to inconvenience the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris). I thought he had finished his speech, and I only rose to enter a protest against the attack made upon Professor Kirkaldy, a distinguished University professor who was discharging a great public work in these Committees. This eminent University professor, this eminent scholar, had leisure——
§ Mr. KIRKWOODHe had a lot of leisure like you and me.
§ Mr. HANNONI do not interrupt the hon. Member.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODYou did not play fair to the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green.
§ The CHAIRMANOrder, order!
§ Mr. HANNONThe hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green told the Committee that this distinguished professor had leisure time upon his hands and employed that to work up a case to please the President of the Board of Trade.
§ Mr. HARRISI did not say working up a case for the pleasure of the President of the Board of Trade. What I said was that he used his leisure time to collect information.
§ Mr. HANNONThat only emphasises the atrocious attack which has been made. The hon. Member applied to a very distinguished member of this Committee, charged with the responsible task of examining evidence, and forming a judgment on a matter of great importance and public interest, the statement that he proceeded to work up a case to favour a particular official. That was a statement which the Committee should not countenance. The real point is in paragraph 13 of the Report of the Committee. The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken might read that with profit. He reads with profit most things no doubt, and I hope he will read this with profit and learn the propriety of speaking kindly of people who are outside this House. The paragraph reads:
We have received fuller and more reliable evidence on this occasion from both Employers and Trade Union representatives.414 Hon. Members opposite have no respect for their own trade union representatives.
§ Mr. HARDIEMay I say a word?
§ The CHAIRMANThat is not a point of Order.
§ Mr. HARDIEMy point of Order is that hon Member having pinched the time of another hon. Member——
§ Mr. HANNONI am in the recollection of the Committee. I have not pinched anything. I am endeavouring to save the character of a public servant being pinched by an hon. Member. I was drawing the attention of the Committee to the fact that the hon. Gentleman, in attacking these proposals and criticising the recommendations of the Committee and bringing protests against the President of the Board of Trade, leaves out of account tire fact that trade union leaders desire these safeguards as much as employers. If the hon. Gentleman who spoke against the previous proposal had been in conversation, as I was, with representatives from an industry he would have learned that that is so. You cannot run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. You have to have some regard for the representatives of your own trade unions. An effort was made with reference to another industry, in which a deputation of trade unionists came to this House and saw me with other hon. Members and asked for safeguarding so be introduced. But I go on to complete the paragraph which the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green did not read. After representations made by the trade union representatives, they say,
It was shown that in September, 1925, approximately 3,900 persons were employed by makers of wrought enamelled hollow-ware known to the applicants. After making full allowance for the numbers employed by the small minority of firms in respect of whom certified returns were not submitted, it would appear that the average number of persons engaged in this trade during 1926 was 3,360, while the average for 1927 falls to 2,980 persons.
§ Mr. E. BROWNWill the hon. Member read on!
§ Mr. HANNONI have quoted the figures from paragraph 13 of the Report. 415 The practical proposition before the Committee is this: Are we to take steps to provide the opportunity for employment for those people who have lost their occupation from one year to another? When hon. Members on the other side oppose measures of this kind, they are, as a matter of fact, taking steps to prevent people in this country from getting the opportunity to get back into employment. We on this side are doing what we can in these safeguarding measures to broaden opportunities of employment. The whole of this debate from the other side has been an assault on the self-respect of the working-men of this country. They have no consideration for the working-men. Every act they perform here is fighting against their best interests, and I hope the Committee will carry this Amendment by a great majority.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSThe hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon), who has just spoken, might very well have completed the next sentence after paragraph 13 when he was referring to the question of unemployment. The salient words following the quotation of the hon. Member are as follows:
As this industry is not separately distinguished in the Ministry of Labour returns, we have not been able to rely on any official information as to the numbers unemployed or on short time.That rather discountenances the previous statement.
§ Mr. HANNONPlease go on.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSIt rather discountenances the statement about the 3,360 and 2,980.
§ Mr. HANNONRead the sentence about the trade unions.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSIf the hon. Member will be patient, I will recall to him another paragraph of the Report—Section 5—where the inquirers have to make the statement that the applicants submitted figures representing that they were approximately 55 per cent. on the whole of the producers of enamelled hollow-ware, but, later on, they found that
The results of the Census of Production of 1924, only available to us since the date of our last report, however, show that 416 the proportion of the trade in the hands of these few firms was smaller than they had assumed.Apparently, 50 per cent. of the producers were in no way identified with the application which was made on the White Paper procedure. One must conclude that they, at least, were satisfied without any imposition in the shape of a further duty. I want to draw attention to the part played by Professor Kirkaldy in these two inquiries. In 1926, Professor Kirkaldy is one of three persons called upon to institute this inquiry. They took evidence, and Professor Kirkaldy signed a minority report, and, in view of the fact that his fiscal predilections are well known, it seems to me that this special minority report is probably the chief justification for the second Report of 1928. I would like to suggest that there seems to be more than an atom of justification for assuming that this Professor has been very largely the inspiration of the second Report. In the second Report, paragraph 26, hon. Members will find that the Committee have taken—[Interruption.].
§ The CHAIRMANI must ask hon. Members to allow the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) to proceed.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSI want to draw attention to paragraph 26 of the second Report, where it is stated that
Due to further evidence and the knowledge gained from Professor Kirkaldy's visits to seven of the English works, we are satisfied that the industry is being conducted with reasonable efficiency and economy.In the first place, this Professor signed a minority report in favour of Protection. He is known to be a supporter of Protection, and he is the very person who is permitted to pay visits to seven factories, and whose evidence, apparently, is the guiding influence when this second Report is drawn up. It is fair to assume that this is Professor Kirkaldy's report, that it is based on his fiscal predilections, and that no—[Interruption.].
§ The CHAIRMANI must ask hon. Members to pay some respect to the Chair. If there be something that is distracting their attention. I would suggest that it might be removed.
§ Mr. HARDIESince the Committee is not concentrating on business, should I be in Order in moving to report Progress?
§ The CHAIRMANMr. Williams.
§ 1.0 a.m.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSI should be very sorry to intervene between hon. Members and their hilarity. If the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain Peter Macdonald) has some real pearl of wisdom that he would like to share with hon. Members, I suggest that he takes it to the Dining Boom. To come back to the question of hollow-ware. The hon. Member for Moseley referred to the question of unemployment. It is not so much a question of creating unemployment because one industry is flagging for the moment as really diverting the workers to some other industry, and, from that point of view, it seems to me that the argument advanced has not been on very sound ground. There is another submission I should like to make. In both of these reports reference is made as to conditions of labour abroad and to hours of labour worked by the workpeople in Germany and elsewhere. These are really the justification for the second report which this Committee of inquiry has submitted to the House and with which we are dealing at this moment. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman how many more times he is coming along with proposals of duties of 25 or 33 per cent. on articles which are in general use, because the Continental workers work longer hours than the British workers? How many more times will he come forward with that kind of argument when he knows that he and his Government are more responsible for the regularisation of the hours of labour in this country and on the Continent than anyone else? They could have regularised hours in both, and I hope the Committee will not be carried away, but will insist upon something much more solid and substantial than any argument that the right hon. Gentleman has submitted this evening.
§ Mr. PALINGIt appears to me that this report is drawn up much more carefully than the last one. But, even so, I do not think it can be taken to be a conclusive report in favour of the tariff being put on. There are one or two criticisms which I should like to make. One of the arguments put forward by the Board of Trade is the increase of imports. I would like to draw attention to the fact that the Committee of Inquiry referred to the 418 years 1921 and 1922 and 1926 and 1927, and they said
It will be noted that the average importation for 1921 and 1922, the two years considered at our last inquiry as most fair and normal for comparative purposes, is 8,134 tons, while that for 1926 and 1927, the two years under review, the figure rises to 8,519 tons.That is an increase, but it is not the increase of the character that the President tried to make out and would have us believe. I want to refer to the question of the number of men out of work. If we can do anything to find work let us do it, but I am not convinced that this is the right method. On page 9 of the report, I find that the total home production as submitted by applicants in 1925 was 9,480 tons, and in 1927, 8,737. That has been the reason for some of it, not all of it. Again, in regard to this question of the reduction of men, would the President of the Board of Trade himself dare to argue that all of it has been due to competition from Continental countries. If so, cannot we argue the same with regard to the coal industry? We in that industry have lost more men than any body, and I submit that the same causes operate in regard to this business also. When you take into consideration these two points, the number of men reduced in the industry by this competition is very small indeed. That argument does not hold much water. Another question taken into consideration is that of wages and hours. The President of the Board of Trade was careful to point out that Germany was responsible or 66 per cent. of our imports two-thirds of the total. I notice in the report it says:In the case of the important German works we were informed that the 'weekly earnings' of skilled men, including certain family allowances and increased rates in respect of any hours worked in excess of 48 Hours per week, ranged from 57 marks to 67 marls per week of 52 hours. This is equivalent to from 1.11 marks to 1.29 marks (or 1s. 1½d. to 1s. 3½d.) per hour.My point is that these rates of pay are near British rates of pay. There is not a great deal of difference. The second point I wish to make is that the Committee admit that the rates of pay have been getting nearer to British rates of pay and that the number of hours worked in Germany lave been going down. The number of hour in Germany is now 48, and I doubt whether the hours in this 419 country are below 48. So, taking Germany as our biggest importer with whom we have to compete in hour and wages, they are not so very much below those of this country and have a tendency to come nearer. From the point of view of imports, from the point of view of reduction of men, and from the point of view of wages and hours of our chief competitor the case for the duty has not been made out.
§ Mr. KELLYIn his enthusiasm, one of the hon. Members came to the defence of Professor Kirkaldy. I do not think there was any necessity for him to do so. If the Committee will look at the report, they will find justification for any criticism offered in regard to Members of the Committee that made the report. The same people set to consider this question in 1926 presented a report, or rather two different reports, and one of the reports, from Professor Kirkaldy, made it clear that, no matter what evidence was placed before him, he was quite prepared to agree that there should be taxation imposed.
§ Mr. HANNONThe suggestion in the hon. Member's speech is really reprehensible. He says, in effect, that Professor Kirkaldy would accept no evidence other than that which would tend to bring about the conclusion in favour of safeguarding. Where does the hon. Member find warrant for that statement?
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSMay I call the attention of the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) to the two reports. In the first report, Professor Kirkaldy says:
I have formed the opinion that the working hours of a week in Germany, our chief competitors, are longer than those worked in this country.In the second report, the statement is made as to the hours of labour in Germany:The hours of labour in Germany, the only country in respect of which evidence was submitted, are normally restricted to 48 hours a week.That does not give currency to the idea that Germany was working for less money. In any circumstances, it does not Support the claim for this duty.
§ Mr. KELLYThe point is that reservations in the special report show very clearly Professor Kirkaldy's mind worked in the direction and only in the direction of a tariff. One expects references made to him as a learned professor at the University. I pay all tribute to those who are acting in that capacity, but, when you bring them into contact with industry you are taking them out of their element. Professor Kirkaldy was taken out of his element without any experience of management, or methods of production, without experience of the control of men, women, boys and girls engaged in industry in this country. He went round to the various places—not the whole of the Committee, not his trade union colleague or the chairman—but he himself. He had given a minority report in favour of the tariff in 1926, and then he went round the places in order to decide that they were the most perfect organisation so far as the carrying on of the industry was concerned that it was possible to find. Surely, that is not good enough for us in 1928? I submit that such a report would not have stood for a moment in a conference between trade unionists and employers. This report on the industry would not be accepted by any conference. We are not given any evidence but are expected to accept what this trade union official, this professor, and this chairman have said as the last word. I do not know why it is brought to us at all or why, without any evidence, we should be expected to go into the lobby and say that the Committee must be right and agree to the tariff being placed upon the products of this particular industry.
§ Mr. HANNONDoes the hon. Gentleman contend that trade union members contest that position?
§ Mr. KELLYI cannot understand why the trade union member of that Committee accepted this type of statement. I cannot, because on the statement submitted to us, the conclusion arrived at for twenty-five per cent. is unwarranted, and we have no evidence. I am coming to one or two statements of the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) which he gave a few moments ago. I am coming to those trade union officials to whom he referred. I am stating that I cannot understand the conclusion arrived at by these people on the statement given in the white Paper. I do not 421 know whether the hon. Member has the shorthand notes and whether he knows much of the evidence submitted. If he does, that certainly is not fair to us, and it is not fair to the Committee that we should be asked blindly to be obedient to the Report of these people. We were told that trade union officials gave evidence, and we read so in paragraph 13 of this Report. I understand that the hon. Member for Moseley made it appear to this Committee that the trade unionists were represented—that the trade unionists concerned in the enamelled hollow-ware industry were represented at this inquiry. I can assure the Committee——
§ Mr. HANNONI have the case in the Report.
§ Mr. KELLYI am going to show that this Report ought not to be accepted by the Committee. Trade Unions concerned in this industry, not only the Welsh tin-plate at Llanelly, but in other parts of South Wales and in districts of the Black Country as well as in districts further north, where you find the enamelled hollow-ware industry—these unions wore not represented at the inquiry. They were not asked to give evidence. Then we are told that the Trade Unions gave evidence on the tariff being imposed. That is not true. The unions concerned were not invited. One or two might have been. I note a reference made lower down to the industries—sheet metal workers, fusers, picklers and others engaged with the plates. The suggestion to the Committee is that the sheet metal workers' Trade Union was represented, and that the general body of those engaged in the industry was represented. As one hon. Member reminds me, it would have been interesting to the Committee if the hon. Member for Moseley had told us what Union those people who came to the House to see him represented. I have a great admiration for the hon. Member.
§ Mr. HANNONIt was a deputation of workers in the glass trade.
§ Mr. KELLYI accept that. That was not enamelled hollow-ware. We thought it was something connected with enamelled hollow-ware. Professor Kirkaldy told us whether this industry was properly conducted, and then we were 422 reminded of the smaller production from the industry. We were not told why there was this lessened production. The inference drawn was that it was due to imports from other countries. Is it not in the knowledge of the Committee that changes are taking place in the material used for the manufacture of this type of article? The aluminium trade is being developed largely in this country in its raw material state and partly-manufactured stare. That is the material that is displacing much of the enamelled hollow-ware which has been the subject of this inquiry. There is not a word about that I do expect a professor to be scientific in an inquiry. A Member of Parliament has always to be scientific and never depart from the truth. He is in a representative capacity, and it is not of himself he should be thinking at all, but those whom he represents. I submit to the Committee that much of the lessening of production in the enamelled hollow-ware trade is due to the change that has taken place by the use of aluminium. I do not know whether it is suggested that a safeguarding duty should be imposed on aluminium. We should need to say something about that. I am concerned very much with aluminium, not only in its raw state as imported into this country, but as made up into sheet and rolls and the finished articles sold over the counter. If there is an attempt to impose a tariff with regard to that particular stage of industry, I think there will be trouble.
I notice that the President of the Board of Trade tells us about the Welsh tinplate works at Llanelly, of how they have reopened two since the tariff was imposed, and that they now employ a greater number of people. But did the Welsh tinplate company tell him they are not solely engaged upon enamelled hollow-ware. There is no suggestion as to which side of the manufacture of this big company the greater number of people are now employed. It is just like many of the figures presented to this Committee for safeguarding purposes. Figures are given in order to try to bring out the position best suited to the individual presenting these figures. I think it is unfair and unjust to this Committee that we should be asked to approve this tariff in this form. I really hope that there will be some regard for industry and that the regard will play some part 423 in the minds of the hon. Gentlemen opposite. I have not seen anything of it up to the present. I say so as one desirous of seeing our industries prosperous. An hon. Member over there laughs. I am concerned with the firms with which he is connected. I am concerned with those firms in which he holds directorates. I am concerned with the men and women who are employed there and who have a greater concern in it, because they depend on it for their bread and butter every week. I want to see these industries prosperous for the purpose of providing wages and bread and butter for the people whom I represent. [Laughter.] There is no need for the hon. Member to laugh. I hope there is going to be a greater regard for the industry than is shown by this method of dealing with it, and I hope that, even at this late hour, we shall show our objection to the imposition of these tariffs, because they are of no advantage to the industries with which they deal.
§ Mr. DIXEYHon. Members opposite always dislike to hear statements made which hit them when they are expressing doctrines which they know are not represented in their constituencies. Hon. Members on the other side come here and complain about an industry being safeguarded when that industry has been safeguarded after the most difficult possible procedure. There are a lot of people on this side who believe that the pledges of the Government, given to the electorate before the last General Election, were definitely that any British industry which suffered unfairly from foreign competition should ipso facto be entitled to a measure of safeguarding. [An HON. MEMBER: "Humbug!"] It is all very well to say "Humbug," but there were large numbers of people, at any rate of my persuasion, who supported the Conservative Government on the lines of a safeguarding policy for trades hit by unfair foreign competition.
§ Mr. OLIVERNever!
§ Mr. DIXEYIt is all very well to say "Never." If hon. Members are judging their own pretences and performances by the desires of people on this side of the Committee, they do probably fail in their appreciation of our motives. [Interruption.] I do not mind interruption. I 424 merely say that the Government's pledge was the safeguarding of British industries hurt by foreign competition. As far as I am concerned, I say to the President of the Board of Trade that I believe that these Committees are unfair to the British manufacturers. I believe that any trade in this country which could show unfair competition from abroad should be entitled as a matter of course to protection, which it would get in any other country except this.
§ Mr. CRAWFURDShow to whom?
§ Mr. DIXEYShow to the Board of Trade, which represents the Government. I think the Board of Trade and the Government were quite sufficient to decide this matter, but in their greater wisdom the Government, in order to keep loyally to the pledge given by the Prime Minister against a general tariff, have provided the most strict rules and regulations before any industry can get the slightest bit of protection against foreign competition. It seems to me such a farce for Liberal Members to talk in the country about a general tariff, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) says to-night that these are nothing but pettifogging little measures. We are told by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer that they are pettifogging little measures, and yet the leader of the Free Trade wing of the Socialist party tells us that the Hollow-ware Duty is a matter of great economic importance. You cannot have is both ways. Either this is a big measure and a new fiscal policy, or else it is a pettifogging measure. If it is such a pettifogging measure, why do hon. and right hon. Gentlemen keep us up at 1.30 discussing something that they consider relatively unimportant? By the passing of this particular safeguarding measure, we are asking for protection for an important British industry. I would like to read the names of the various gentlemen who opposed this safeguarding measure. I do not say this with any feeling of dislike against the Germans; they are perfectly entitled to trade here as much as we let them, but, if I sat on a Committee and had to listen to witnesses, I would tend to believe the evidence of the English manufacturers rather than the evidence of five out of seven on the other side who were Germans or connected with German 425 firms. So far from feeling that the trade or this country is getting its proper share of protection by these committees, I think we are not getting anything like a fair show. We have only had nine measures of safeguarding granted out of, I think, 49 applications, and, so far from any complaint being being made by hon. Gentlemen opposite, those who worship at the shrine of Free Trade ought to go down and worship at the shrine of the gentlemen in the Conservative party who have so well upheld their case as to insist on these very strict regulations being carried out before any duty is given.
§ Mr. CRAWFURDIn spite of what the hon. Member for Penrith (Mr. Dixey) has said, it has been well worth while sitting up until this time in order to hear his speech. I want, however, to point out to him one or two delusions from which he is suffering. He tells us that we are in some sort of a dilemma, and that we cannot have it both ways. On the one hand, we are told that these are pettifogging measures, and, on the other hand, we are told that they are great economic matters. Well, one case of small-pox is a small matter, but an epidemic is very serious, and we believe that every single safeguarding duty is a blow aimed directly at the prosperity of this country. Just as a medical officer of health isolates a case of small-pox or other infectious disease because of the danger of spreading, so we believe that this mendicant attitude, this desire to get something out of the pockets of the consumer without any corresponding effort on the part of the producer, this whining about unfair competition, should be isolated. The hon. Member who has just spoken in his own speeches said at the last General Election with some others that they appealed to the electorate on the basis that the Prime Minister said that any industry suffering from unfair competition should receive a measure of protection. Does the hon. Member say that to-day? When he talks about unfair competition, he begs the whole question. We had an extraordinarily good example in the last Clause when we were discussing buttons. I would ask the Committee to take notice of all this kind of argument against which we have to contend. We have asked over and over again that we should be allowed to see the evidence on which these cases are 426 based. I understand in the discussion on the last Clause that the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) has been shown the evidence.
§ Mr. HANNONThe hon. Member places hid own interpretation on that.
§ Mr. CRAWFURDI am very happy to have drawn that from the hon. Member. He told us at great length all about what the counsel who appeared for the duties said.
§ Mr. HANNONI did not say a single word about that. I only pointed to the fact that learned gentlemen had been there, and no doubt made a favourable case.
§ Mr. CRAWFURDWhat the hon. Member said was that these learned gentleman had been there and had used arguments far more cogent and powerful than had been advanced here.
§ Mr. HANNONI have no doubt that they did.
§ Mr. CRAWFURDThe point is what the hon. Member for Penrith brought out so clearly. The great complaint I have is the total and complete lack of patriotism of the supporters of this policy. Do hon. Members opposite who say that British industry cannot compete with the foreigners on equal terms——
§ Mr. DIXEYThe Amendment goes rather to meet our contention. Supposing we had two shops in this country, one shop on one side of the street and another on the other side. One shop pays so much per week in wages and works so many hours while the other pays what it likes and works as long as it likes. Are they trading on an equal basis?
§ Mr. CRAWFURDAllow me to say that the hon. Member in his recent speech which he has made has confirmed again what we always said, that in Continental countries you get bad conditions. But let me return to the point which I wish to make about the names of the people who gave evidence. It does not matter what the name is or what the names of the people are who gave evidence. What does matter are the facts advanced. Until we can see that evidence this Committee cannot properly come to a conclusion.
§ Mr. E. BROWNI want to deal with one point, because I think it is of some importance. The President of the Board of Trade referred to the arguments produced in the report about imports. In the report it shows that the retained imports had increased in 1927 to 9,690 tons. Then he went on to argue from that that if the conditions in 1922 were shown to be less, that was a very powerful argument for proceeding with the duty. The question was not as to the first four months of the year, but the first five months of the year. The right hon. Gentleman tried to escape from the question. In April, 1928, the year used by the right hon. Gentleman, we have 1,426, but in the month of May, the month before the President of the Board of Trade came down and recommended the Financial Resolution upon which the tax is based, the imports had fallen to 770 tons; and I venture to say that before the Debate concluded it was worth while calling the attention of the Committee to the fact that the argument of the right hon. Gentleman was completely fallacious. One hon. Member said you cannot have it both ways, but his own President of the Board of Trade has it both ways. He sets up a Committee on an industry which has selected itself, according to the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Trade, and the Committee begins to discuss a duty of this kind. The result is that everyone soon knows that there will probably be a decision in favour of the duty. It was common rumour weeks before that the conclusions of the Committee would be in the direction in which they were found to be. People began to make larger demands and larger orders, and, immediately that process has taken place, in order that the goods may be bought before the application of the duty, the President of the Board of Trade comes down and says, "We ought to have the duty, because of the larger demands for the goods created by the demand for the duty." So the President of the Board of Trade has it both ways. It is true that, though the rate was 10,500 tons a year for the first four months the average was not maintained in the fifth month or in the sixth or seventh months. The fact is that the whole of these reports are very specious pieces of special pleading.
428 All these duties have been made on documents which are some of them more definite than others. The present one is one of the more definite, but in all the cases they are based upon evidence which no Member of this Committee has seen. The second point I want to put is that when the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) raised the question of the prices the Opposition made no statement with regard to evidence. The President of the Board of Trade goes further than that. He refuses to submit the statement of claim upon which the evidence is made. I will go so far as to assert that the statement of claim, when produced, will be found to contain the very statement which the Committee denied was made. The whole of these duties are dangerous in my judgment. One tariff for a particular trade is much more dangerous than a general tariff, especially when it is applied as in this case to finished articles bought by the home consumer. If one of the great industries of the land, manufacturing a semi-manufactured article, had managed to come before the Committee, we would have heard the consumers of the raw material making their protest against this method of taxing by select Committees.
§ Mr. RADFORDMay I ask the hon. Member this: Does he agree that out of 49 applicants for safeguarding some 40 have been declined and only nine granted, and how does he reconcile the fact that 40 have been declined and nine granted with his remarks on special pleading?
§ Mr. BROWNThe answer is that it is the same all the way round. I am no more satisfied with the contents of the reports of the 40 than the nine. I think the whole method is pernicious. In the first case, my reply is that when the applicants were asked as to the number of men employed in the industry they gave certain figures. When the census of production returns came out their figures were found to be partial. I say that the whole system is one of special pleading, and hon. Members opposite would be far more honest with themselves and the country if they came straight out and argued the Protectionist cause on a Protectionist basis on the ground of a general tariff.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 1, to leave out the words "five years" and to insert instead thereof the words "one year."
I think it is very necessary that we should limit the time. We want to divide
§ upon this Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
§ Question put, "That the words 'five years' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 152; Noes, 67.
431| Division No. 197.] | AYES. | [2.2 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Fraser, Captain Ian | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Albery, Irving James | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Preston, William |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Radford, E. A. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Ramsden, E. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Goff, Sir Park | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Balniel, Lord | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Barclay, Harvey, C. M. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Red.) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Bethel, A. | Hammersley, S. S | Ropner, Major L. |
| Bitchall, Major J. Dearman | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Harland, A. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Haslam, Henry C. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Savery, S. S. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hilton, Cecil | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Buchan, John | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N) | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Christie, J. A. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Storry, Deans, R. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Lamb, J. Q. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Colfox, Major William Phillips | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Loder, J. de V. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Long, Major Eric | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Couper, J. B. | Lougher, Lewis | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Luce, Major-Gen, Sir Richard Harman | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lumley, L. R. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | McLean, Major A. | Wells, S. R. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Macmillan, Captain H. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Dixey, A. C. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Ellis, R. G. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S.-M.) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Mr. Penny and Captain Wallace. |
| Finburgh, S. | Oakley, T. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Day, Harry | Hirst, G. H. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Dunnico, H. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Edge, Sir William | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) |
| Batey, Joseph | Fenby, T. D. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Gibbins, Joseph | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) |
| Bromfield, William | Gillett, George M. | Kelly, W. T. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Kennedy, T. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Griffith, F. Kingsley | Kirkwood, D. |
| Buchanan, G. | Grundy, T. W. | Lawson, John Janie. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Lunn, William |
| Compton, Joseph | Hardie, George D. | Mackinder, W. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Harris, Percy A. | MacLaren, Andrew |
| Crawford, H. E. | Hayday, Arthur | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) |
| Murnin. H. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Oliver, George Harold | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) | Westwood, J. |
| Paling, W. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Thurtle, Ernest | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Tinker, John Joseph | Windsor, Walter |
| Potts, John S. | Townend, A. E. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Purcell, A. A. | Varley, Frank B. | |
| Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Scurr, John | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) | Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley. |
| Sitch, Charles H. |
§ The CHAIRMANI understand that the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) wishes to move the next Amendment.
§ Mr. ALEXANDERI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 3, to leave out the word
§ "twenty-five," and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."
§ Question put, "That the word 'twenty-five' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 151; Noes, 67.
433| Division No. 198.] | AYES. | [2.10 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Fraser, Captain Ian | Oakley, T. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Albery, Irving James | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Ganzonl, Sir John | Preston, William |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Radford, E. A. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Goff Sir Park | Ramsden, E. |
| Balniel, Lord | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Bethel, A. | Hammersley, S. S. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Ropner, Major L. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Harland, A. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Samuel. A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Haslam, Henry C. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Sanders, Sir Robert A |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Savery, S. S. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hilton, Cecil | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Buchan, John | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Cayzer. Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Christie, J. A. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Lamb, J. Q. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Loder, J. de V. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Long, Major Eric | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Couper, J. B. | Lougher, Lewis | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Wallace, Captain C. [...]. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lumley, L. R. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | McLean, Major A. | Wells, S. R. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Macmillan, Captain H. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Dixey, A. C. | Mac Robert, Alexander M. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Ellis, R. G. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C | |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Falie, Sir Bertram G. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Mr. Penny and Sir Victor Warrender |
| Finburgh, S. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Buchanan, G. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Bromfield, William | Charleton, H. C. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Compton, Joseph |
| Batey, Joseph | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Kelly, W. T. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Day, Harry | Kennedy, T. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Dunnico, H. | Kirkwood, D. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Edge, Sir William | Lawson, John James | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Fenby, T. D. | Lunn, William | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Mackinder, W. | Townend, A. E. |
| Gillett, George M. | MacLaren, Andrew | Varley, Frank B. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Murnin, H. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Oliver, George Harold | Westwood, J. |
| Hardie, George D. | Paling, W. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hayday, Arthur | Pethick-Lawrence, P. W. | Windsor, Walter |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Potts, John S. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hirst, G. H. | Purcell, A. A. | |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Scurr, John | Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley. |
| Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) |
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
434§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 149; Noes, 69.
435| Division No. 199.] | AYES. | [2.18 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis, E. | Penny, Frederick George |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Albery, Irving James | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Ganzoni, Sir John | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Preston, William |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Radford, E. A. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wlifrid W. | Goff, Sir Park | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Ramsden, E. |
| Balniel, Lord | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Hammersley, S. S. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Bethel, A. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Harland, A. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Harrison, G. J. C. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Haslam, Henry C. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Savery, S. S. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hilton, Cecil | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Buchan, John | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Christie, J. A. | Lamb, J. Q. | Starry-Deans, R. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Loder, J. de V. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Long, Major Eric | Titchfield, Major the Marquess or |
| Couper, J. B. | Lougher, Lewis | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lumley, L. R. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | McLean, Major A. | Wells. S. R. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Macmillan, Captain H. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Mac Robert, Alexander M. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Ellis, R. G. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Wragg, Herbert |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C | |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Finburgh, S. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Mr. F. C. Thomson and Sir Victor Warrender. |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Oakley, T. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Buchanan, G. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Bromfield, William | Charleton. H. C. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips |
| Batey, Joseph | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Compton, Joseph |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Scurr, John |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Sltch, Charies H. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Kelly, W. T. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Day, Harry | Kennedy, T. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Dunnico, H. | Kirkwood, D. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Edge, Sir William | Lawson, John James | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Fenby, T. D. | Lunn, William | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Mackinder, W. | Townend, A. E. |
| Gillett, George M. | MacLaren, Andrew | Varley, Frank B. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline), |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Murnin, H. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Westwood, J. |
| Hardie, George D. | Oliver, George Harold | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Paling, W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hayday, Arthur | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Windsor, Walter |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hirst, G. H. | Potts, John S. | |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Purcell, A. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley. |
§ Mr. CRAWFURDI beg to move, in page 7, line 40, to leave out the words "fastening or."
Now we return to the buttons. I want to give in a few sentences my reasons for this Amendment. I believe it has been argued that it is impossible to distinguish between buttons used for fastening or buttons used for decorating. If that be so, I fail to understand why the words fastening and decorating appear as two
§ separate words in the Bill. The effect of the tax put on buttons is to put a tax upon decency. It is on these grounds that I move the Amendment standing in my name.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 146; Noes, 63.
437| Division No. 200.] | AYES. | [2.29 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Albery, Irving James | Everard, W. Lindsay | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | McLean, Major A. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Finburgh, S. | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Fraser, Captain Ian | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francie E. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. |
| Balniel, Lord | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- |
| Bethel, A. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Goff, Sir Park | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Oakley, T. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hammersley, S. S. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Preston, William |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Harland, A. | Radford, E. A. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Raine, Sir Waiter |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Ramsden, E. |
| Buchan, John | Haslam, Henry C. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Christie, J. A. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Hilton, Cecil | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dtworth, Putney) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Cope, Major Sir William | lliffe, Sir Edward M. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Couper, J. B. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Savery, S. S. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lamb, J. Q. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Spender Clay, Colonel H. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Loder, J. de V. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovl') | Long, Major Eric | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Lougher, Lewis | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Lumley, L. R. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Ellis, R. G. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Waterhouse, Captain Charles | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde). |
| Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Watts, Sir Thomas | Wragg, Herbert |
| Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. | Wells, S. R. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Wallace, Captain D. E. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern. | |
| Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston, on-Hull) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) | Mr. Frederick Thomson and Mr. Penny. |
| Warrender, Sir Victor | Womersley, W. J. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Harris, Percy A. | Purcell, A. A. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Can nock) | Hayday, Arthur | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hayes, John Henry | Scurr, John |
| Batey, Joseph | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hirst, G. H. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bromfield, William | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Buchanan, G. | Kelly, W. T. | Townend, A. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lawson, John James | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lunn, William | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda). |
| Dalton, Hugh | Mackinder, W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Day, Harry | MacLaren, Andrew | Westwood, J. |
| Dunnico, H. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Edge, Sir William | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Whiteley, W. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Murnin, H. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gillett, George M. | Oliver, George Harold | Windsor, Walter |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Paling, W. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | |
| Grundy, T. W. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hardie, George D. | Potts, John S. | Mr. Fenby and Mr. Crawfurd. |
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 7, line 42, at the end, to insert the words
and the expression 'wrought enamelled hollow-ware' means wrought enamelled hollow-ware, whether of iron or steel, of a description commonly used for domestic purposes.This definition limits the duty to domestic hollow-ware.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERI do not think it is treating the Committee fairly to move an Amendment of this kind without any sort of explanation at all. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us exactly what articles will be excluded from the scope of the duty? There must be some specific reason for the adding of these words by the President of the Board of Trade. There is a whole number of articles manufactured by the enamelled hollow-ware trade which it is now the intention of the Government to exclude from the Bill. I think we are entitled to ask what articles it is proposed to exclude by putting these words into the Bill. It is very significant that the Government are putting in words of this kind. It is the poor housewife again who will pay. If any of these articles were by any chance to be used as raw materials for industrialists or business men who have so many friends in the Government, they would not be chary of keeping the house up at this time of the morning. When it is possible to confine 438 the operation of the duty to the ordinary consumer, the housewife, then of course these bold and brave Protectionists can go straight ahead. I think we ought to have some explanation.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThere are three answers. The first is that it does not apply to enamel ware other than domestic hollow-ware; the second is that the report did not recommend the duty on anything except domestic hollow-ware; and the third is that the resolution authorises this duty and no more. The articles excluded are those not used for domestic purposes.
§ Mr. HARRISYou put the words "except children's toys" in the recommendations for the Committee. Are we to understand that these are excluded?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERChildren's toys are not commonly used for domestic purposes.
§ Mr. HARRISThis expert Committee, whom we are told gave many months to the study of this subject, have felt it necessary. I did not say it was necessary. The Committee say:
All imported hollow-ware, whether of iron or steel for domestic use, except children's toys.I believe there must be some reason obviously for not including children's toys. I think we ought to have some 439 proper definition and explanation of what the words "domestic use" include.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThey include those articles which housemaids, for instance, use.
§ Mr. HARRISDoes it include things in the kitchen, such as saucepans, frying pans, and candlesticks? Does it include baths, for there are many houses where there are no fixed baths, where enamelled baths are used? We ought to have a clearer definition before we impose a tax. We do not want lawyers to be kept busy. We are entitled to know how many articles are going to be taxed. It
§ is so easy lightly to pass a duty through on the recommendation of three experts, but even these gentlemen cannot say what articles are included. The President of the Board of Trade makes a cheap joke about housemaids. We have heard of housemaid's knee. It is a new Parliamentary expression that things will be taxed which housemaids use. We have got into a very comic state when we can pass duties in this frivolous way without knowing what things will be taxed.
§ Question put: "That these words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 142; Noes, 63.
441| Division No. 201.] | AYES. | [2.45 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Albery, Irving James | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Ganzoni, Sir John | Preston, William |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Radford, E. A. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Golf, Sir Park | Ramsden, E. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Bethel, A. | Hammersley, S. S. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Ropner, Major L. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Harland, A. | Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Haslam, Henry C. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Savery, S. S. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Staney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Buchan, John | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Lamb, J. Q. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Christie, J. A. | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Loder, J. de V. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Long, Major Eric | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Lougher, Lewis | Tinne, J. A. |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Couper, J. B. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lumley, L. R. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | McLean, Major A. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Wells, S. R. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Womersley, W. J. |
| Ellis, R. G. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Oakley, T. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Finburgh, S. | Penny, Frederick George | Sir George Hennessy and Mr. Frederick Thomson. |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) | Bondfield, Margaret | Compton, Joseph |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff. Cannock) | Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Crawfurd, H. E. |
| Batey, Joseph | Buchanan, G. | Dalton, Hugh |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Charleton, H. C. | Day, Harry |
| Dunnico, H. | Lawson, John James | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Edge, Sir William | Lunn, William | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Fenby, T. D. | Mackinder, W. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Gibbins, Joseph | MacLaren, Andrew | Townend, A. E. |
| Gillett, George M. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Varley, Frank B. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Murnin, H. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Oliver, George Harold | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Hardie, George D. | Paling, W. | Westwood, J. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hayes, John Henry | Potts, John S. | Windsor, Walter |
| Hirst, G. H. | Purcell, A. A. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Scurr, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Sitch, Charles H. | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Thomas Henderson. |
| Kelly, W. T. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. | |
| Kennedy, T. |
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 8, line 4, to leave out the word "duty" and to insert instead thereof the word "duties."
§ Question, "That the word 'duty'
442§ stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
§ Question put, "That the word 'duties' be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 143: Noes, 63.
443| Division No. 202.] | AYES. | [2.54 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Albery, Irving James | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Alexander Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Ganzoni, Sir John | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Preston, William |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Radford, E. A. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Goff, Sir Park | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Ramsden, E. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Bethel, A. | Hammersley, S. S. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Harland, A. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton W.) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Haslam, Henry C. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Sanders, Sir Robert A |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Savery, S. S. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Buchan, John | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Christie, J. A. | Lamb, J. Q. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Loder, J. de V. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Long, Major Eric | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Lougher, Lewis | Tinne, J. A. |
| Couper, J. B. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Lumley, L. R. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | McLean, Major A. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Macmillan, Captain H. | Wells, S. R. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Womersley, W. J. |
| Ellis, R. G. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Finburgh, S. | Oakley, T. | Mr. Frederick Thomson and |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Penny, Frederick George | Captain Wallace. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Grundy, T. W. | Potts, John S. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hardie, George D. | Purcell, A. A. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Harris, Percy A. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Batey, Joseph | Hayday, Arthur | Scurr, John |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hayes, John Henry | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Bromfield, William | Hirst, G. H. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kelly, W. T. | Townend, A. E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Kennedy, T. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lawson, John James | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lunn, William | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Mackinder, W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Day, Harry | MacLaren, Andrew | Westwood, J. |
| Dunnico, H. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Edge, Sir William | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Murnin, H. | Windsor, Walter |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Gillett, George M. | Paling, W. | |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Thomas Henderson. |
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
444§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 140; Noes, 63.
445| Division No. 203.] | AYES. | [3.1 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Albery, Irving James | Ganzoni, Sir John | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Preston, William |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Radford, E. A. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Goff, Sir Park | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Ramsden, E. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Hammersley, S. S. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Bethel, A. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Harland, A. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Harrison, G. J. C. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Savery, S. S. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Buchan, John | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Cayzer. Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Lamb, J. Q. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Christie, J. A. | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Storry, Deans, R. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Loder, J. de V. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Long, Major Eric | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Lougher, Lewis | Tinne, J. A. |
| Couper, J. B. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Lumley, L. R. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | McLean, Major A. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Macmillan, Captain H. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Wells, S. R. |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Ellis, R. G. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Womersley, W. J. |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Monsell, Eyres Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | |
| Finburgh, S. | Oakley, T. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Penny, Frederick George | Mr. Frederick Thomson and |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Captain Bowyer. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Grundy, T. W. | Purcell, A. A. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hardie, George D. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Harris, Percy A. | Scurr, John |
| Batey, Joseph | Hayday, Arthur | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hayes, John Henry | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bromfield, William | Hirst, G. H. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Townend, A. E. |
| Charleton, H. C | Kelly, W. T. | Varley, Frank B |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Kennedy, T. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Compton, Joseph | Lawson, John James | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lunn, William | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Mackinder, W. | Westwood, J. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Day, Harry | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Whiteley, W. |
| Dunnico, H. | Murnin, H. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Edge, Sir William | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Windsor, Waiter |
| Fenby, T. D. | Oliver, George Harold | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | |
| Gillett, George M. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Putts, John S. | Mr. Thomas Henderson and Mr. Wilfrid Paling. |