HC Deb 03 July 1928 vol 219 cc1341-7
Mr. ATKINSON

I beg to move, in page 26, line 15, to leave out "4" and to insert instead thereof "6."

The object of this Amendment is to bring the country taxicab into the same class of taxation as the taxicabs in London and the great cities. Taxis in cities are, as a rule, four-seated, but in country places, in my own constituency for instance, they are nearly all five or six-seaters, and they are taxed on the higher rate as hackney carriages holding more than four but not more than eight. I think there is really no good reason why they should be taxed on the higher rate. They do not do anything like the same amount of business. It is no advantage to be able to carry more than five or six passengers. These taxis stand most of the time waiting for trains. They take away one or two people, and they have to make their return journeys without any chance of picking up passengers. From whatever point of view one looks at it, the conditions under which they carry on their business are far less advantageous than in London or the great cities. They pay the Petrol Duty on the double journey. They depend very much in their business on the success of the railways. They are just as badly hit as the railways. I do suggest that it is a reasonable request to make a simple alteration of this sort. Taxi-cabs throughout the country should be brought within the same class of taxation as those plying for hire in town.

The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley)

When the next Amendment comes on, I will deal with the concessions which we have made to the taxicab industry in this Budget.

They are very considerable. Here I am simply dealing with the question of seating, and we have so adjusted our taxation, not only of taxicabs but of chars-a-bane and other things, that the concession should be given in steps of four, six, and eight, and so on. That has been very carefully thought out, and I can see no reason why we should change the four to six. It would mean a substantial loss to the revenue. On the next Amendment, I will explain how very generous we have been to the taxicab industry in this matter.

Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER

May I ask if under this Schedule the duty on a taxi-cab licensed for five is £12, and on one licensed for four £10? I would like to know, because I have lately had personal experience of the difficulties which are encountered in London. The people who go to theatres in the West End have a whole lot of police officers standing about to make quite sure that a taxi driver does not pick up more than four persons. I saw a case the other night of a lady who was in a fainting condition because of the heat, and the police refused to allow her to get into a cab because there were already four persons in it. When I made inquiries, I was told that they had to pay extra duty if they had a licence for more than four people. That seems ridiculous, and it seems a strong argument in support of the Amendment.

Colonel ASHLEY

The simple explanation is that if a taxi-cab is licensed for four persons and you take more than four you break the police regulations.

Question put, "That '4' stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 142; Noes, 42.

Division No. 236.] AYES. [12.38 a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Burman, J. B. Dawson, Sir Philip
Agg-Gardner. Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Burton, Colonel H. W. Drewe, C.
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Campbell, E. T. Edmondson, Major A. J.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Elliot, Major Walter E.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Ellis, R. G.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Everard, W. Lindsay
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Cooper, A. Duff Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Bird. Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Cope, Major Sir William Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Blundell, F. N. Couper, J. B. Fanshawe, Captain G. D.
Boothby, R. J. G. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Fielden, E. B.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewel Fraser, Captain Ian
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Galbraith, J. F. W.
Briscoe, Richard George Cronkshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Ganzrni, Sir John
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Curzon, Captain Viscount Gilmour, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Buchan, John Dalkeith, Earl of Goff, Sir Park
Buckingham. Sir H. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Gower, Sir Robert
Bullock, Captain M. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Grace, John
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) McLean, Major A. Sandeman, N. Stewart
Grotrian, H. Brent Macmillan, Captain H. Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Mac Robert, Alexander M. Sanderson, Sir Frank
Hamilton, Sir George Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Sandon, Lord
Hammersley, S. S. Margesson, Captain D. Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Hanbury, C. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Shepperson, E. W.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Skelton, A. N.
Harland, A. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Harrison, G. J. C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Sprot, Sir Alexander
Hartington, Marquess of Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Nelson, Sir Frank Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Henn, Sir Sydney H. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Penny, Frederick George Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Holt, Captain H. P. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell
Hopkins, J. W. W. Philipson, Mabel Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Pilcher, G. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Pownall, Sir Assheton Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Preston, William Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Radford, E. A. Watts, Sir Thomas
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Raine, Sir Walter Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Ramsden, E. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
King, Commodore Henry Douglas Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Womersley, W. J.
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Lamb, J. O. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Wragg, Herbert
Loder, J. de V. Ropner, Major L.
Long, Major Eric Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Lougher, Lewis Salmon, Major I. Captain Wallace and Sir Victor
Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Warrender.
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
NOES.
Batey, Joseph Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) John, William (Rhondda, West) Tinker, John Joseph
Crawfurd, H. E. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Tomlinson, R. P.
Dalton, Hugh Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Varley, Frank B.
Duncan, C. Kelly, W. T. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Kennedy, T. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Fonby, T. D. Kirkwood, D. Wayland, Sir William A.
Gillett, George M. Lawrence, Susan Wellock, Wilfred
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Lawson, John James Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Grundy, T. W. Lindley, F. W. Windsor, Walter
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Murnin, H. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hayday, Arthur Oliver, George Harold
Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hirst, G. H. Scrymgeour, E. Mr. Atkinson and Mr. A. V.
Alexander.
Mr. ATKINSON

I beg to move, in page 26, line 15, to leave out "£10," and to insert instead thereof "£6."

Colonel ASHLEY

I do not know whether the hon. Member realises what a very considerable concession has been given to these taxi-cabs by the Budget. Last year, the taxation was £15, and it has been reduced to £10. Actually, one-third of the taxation has been taken off. Now the hon. Member wishes to reduce it still more, and he does not give any reason why it should be done. The concession to taxi-cabs has cost £200,000. We have given £200,000 to taxi-cabs of Great Britain, and we cannot possibly afford to give another £160,000.

Mr. ATKINSON

I moved this Amendment in order to give the Minister of Transport an opportunity to explain what had been done. I beg to ask leave to-withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir W. SUGDEN

I beg to move, in page26, line 4, after the second word "tyres," to insert the words: Words: including tyres having a distinct and continuous air chamber running round the internal circumference of the tyre with a tread design so balanced and proportioned that constant displacement and recovery takes place under load. I am sure the Minister of Transport will acquiesce immediately in my Amendment. It is necessary to include in the term "pneumatic" that which is generally known in the trade as the "cushion" tyre. The position, as I understand it, is (1), that the Minister of Transport desires to preserve the quality and efficiency of the roads; (2), that he has some conception of the need that buildings put up under the Minister of Health via housing schemes should not be damaged by juggernauts of 10, 12, or 20 tons crashing through the streets and the country with their irresistible powers, shaking houses and spoiling them and adding to the taxation of the country by their repairs. If the Minister of Transport desires to preserve the roads and prevent houses from being shaken, he will see the necessity for "pneumatic" also including "cushion." Though now, perhaps, somewhat junior in the higher section of the legal profession, I have had some 15 years' practical engineering knowledge comprising also the making of tyres, and, with very great respect to the Minister, there is one thing I want to say very definitely. There is no one who will disprove my statement that the air cushion tyre is as efficient for the purpose for which this special rebate is allowed as the pneumatic tyre. I go further and say it is impossible to get satisfactory results as to running on some of the largest motor haulage wagons, and the cushion tyre is the only real safe alternative. With the high efficiency and mentality which the Minister of Transport possesses, and the great love he has for the Minister of Health, I am sure he will at once accept the Amendment I have so succinctly and modestly presented to him.

Colonel ASHLEY

I think, Mr. Herbert, after you have read the Amendment from the Chair the Committee will be thoroughly of opinion why I cannot

possibly accept it. It is almost impossible to interpret it. But may I in all seriousness point out to my hon. Friend who has moved that Amendment the concessions given in the Budget to heavy vehicles? We are giving away no less a sum than £650,000 in a full financial year in order to induce the heavy chars-a-banc and heavy motor vehicles to go on pneumatic tyres.

Sir W. SUGDEN

May I inform my right hon. Friend that it is impossible to produce a pneumatic tyre to cover more than 15 per cent. of the motor vehicles on the roads?

Colonel ASHLEY

We are giving this great concession to the chars-a-banc and to the heavy motor vehicles in order in some way to make up the tax of 4d. per gallon which they have to pay and also at the same time in order to diminish the expenses which the ratepayers are bearing in keeping up the roads, because everybody knows that pneumatic tyres do much less harm on the roads than solid tyres. I cannot accept the Amendment which the hon. Member has moved. I am advised that these cushion tyres are not the same as pneumatic tyres, and, if I am giving this enormous sum of £650,000 to induce the use of pneumatic tyres to save the roads, I cannot accept this Amendment for cushion tyres.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 39; Noes, 137.

Division No. 237.] AYES. [12.55 a.m.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Batey, Joseph Hirst, G. H. Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hudson, J. H. (Haddersfield) Tinker, John Joseph
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Tomlinson, R. P.
Crawfurd, H. E. John, William (Rhondda, West) Varley, Frank B.
Dalton, Hugh Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Duncan, C. Kelly, W. T. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Kennedy, T. Wellock, Wilfred
Fenby, T. D. Lawrence, Susan Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Gillett, George M. Lawson, John James Windsor, Walter
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Lindley, F. W. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W. Oliver, George Harold
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hayday, Arthur Scrymgeour, E. Sir Wilfrid Sugden and Mr. Luke
Thompson.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Betterton, Henry B. Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Buchan, John
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Blundell, F. N. Buckingham, Sir H.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Bullock, Captain M.
Atkinson, C. Braithwaite, Major A. N. Burman, J. B.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Briscoe, Richard George Burton, Colonel H. W.
Campbell, E. T. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Raine, Sir Walter
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Ramsden, E.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Cooper, A. Duff Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Cope, Major Sir William Holt, Captain H. P. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Couper, J. B. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Ropner, Major L.
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hopkins, J. W. W. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Salmon, Major I.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Samuel, A M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Curzon, Captain Viscount Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sandeman, N. Stewart
Dalkeith. Earl of James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Sanderson, Sir Frank
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) King, Commodore Henry Douglas Sandon, Lord
Dawson, Sir Philip Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)
Drewe, C. Lamb, J. Q. Shepperson, E. W.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Loder, J. de V. Skelton, A. N.
Elliot, Major Walter E. Long, Major Eric Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Everard, W. Lindsay Lougher, Lewis Sprot, Sir Alexander
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Falle, Sir Bertram G. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Fanshawe, Captain G. D. McLean, Major A. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Fielden, E. B. Mac Robert, Alexander M. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Fraser, Captain Ian Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Galbraith, J. F. W. Margesson, Captain D. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell
Ganzoni, Sir John Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Glimour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Tryon, Rt. Hon George Clement
Goff, Sir Park Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Gower, Sir Robert Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Grace, John Nelson, Sir Frank Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Watts, Sir Thomas
Grotrian, H. Brent O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Wayland, Sir William A.
Hall. Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Hamilton, Sir George Penny, Frederick George Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hammersley, S. S. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Womersley, W. J.
Hanbury, C. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Philipson, Mabel Wragg, Herbert
Harland, A. Pilcher, G.
Harrison, G. J. C. Pownall, Sir Assheton TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hartington, Marquess of Preston, William Captain Wallace and Sir Victor
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Radford, E. A. Warrender.

Question put, and agreed to.

Third Schedule agreed to.

Fourth Schedule (Agreement made the 25th day of April, 1928, between the British Government and the Government of the Irish Free State amending the Agreement made on the 14th day of April, 1926, between the said Governments in respect of Double Income Tax) agreed to.