§ Section nineteen of the Finance Act, 1920 (which makes provision for a deduction in respect of relatives taking charge of widowers' or widows' children), as amended by Sections twenty-one and twenty-two of the Finance Act, 1924, shall be extended so as to apply to a person resident with an unmarried person in the capacity of housekeeper where the unmarried person proves that his income from all sources does not exceed five hundred pounds.—[Mr. T. Williams.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
The Finance Act, 1920, Section 19, provided that a widower who employed a female relative to take care of his children, was allowed £45 per annum for that purpose. The Finance Act, 1924, extended that provision. Section 21 of that Act increased the allowance from £45 to £60, while Section 22 extended the provision of the 1920 Act to include a person who acted in the capacity of housekeeper regardless of any children. This has created anomalies which, I presume, we shall always have with any 1186 Finance Act, but here is an anomaly which, I think, the Committee might very well feel disposed to remove. Let me illustrate the point I want to make by referring to the case, for instance, of two head teachers in one school. The male head teacher may have a person performing the housekeeping duties for him, and would be allowed £60 under the Finance Act, 1924, but in the case of the head teacher of the girls' section of the school who is unmarried, but who has a sister at home performing the domestic duties, the two sisters living together and being mutually helpful, the person who remains at home performing the domestic duties and being absolutely maintained out of the salary of the head teacher, no allowance in a case of that description is made.
It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman might very well agree to this concession, which would be a comparatively small one, and would not involve any immorality. Neither would it involve any great changes to remove that anomaly, and grant to the woman the concession on the same terms as the man. It may be that the hon. Gentleman may not feel disposed to support any 1187 Amendment which develops the idea of celibacy, but, at least, I think one can claim that while the concession is available for men in exactly identical circumstances, the same concession ought to be available for women. The hon. Gentleman may tell us that the Income Tax assessors are able to grant certain concessions, but I have in my mind at least one case in which a head mistress absolutely and entirely maintains her sister, who performs the domestic duties at home, the two sisters living happily together, and no allowance at all is granted, and annually the head mistress is called upon to pay to the last farthing. I need not enlarge upon the point, but I hope the hon. Gentleman will feel disposed, in the interests of equity, to concede to women the same concession that has been for so long granted to men.
§ Mr. A. M. SAMUELI think I remember the hon. Gentleman moving a similar Clause about this time last year, and the Clause was then rejected. In the first place, I do not think this Clause is very happily worded—even if we could accept it, which we cannot—when he imports the words "does not exceed five hundred pounds." The introduction of the income limit would lead to all kinds of objections. As I read the Clause, the hon. Gentleman proposes to extend the housekeeper allowance, which is at present confined to widows and widowers, to unmarried persons with incomes not exceeding £500, and to make it available to the bachelor or spinster who may choose to maintain a housekeeper or employ a person for the purpose of looking after them. I think that is what is in my hon. Friend's mind. I want to put it in a most moderate way that the word "housekeeper" might lend itself to an unpleasant interpretation. I believe my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reply to an hon. Member for one of the divisions of Leicester, pointed out that he was unable to estimate the cost, but that it would certainly involve the Exchequer in a considerable amount. For these reasons, I hope my hon. Friend will not press this Clause, which we are unable to accept.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI am sorry the Financial Secretary brought in the question of possible immorality.
§ Mr. SAMUELI did not say so.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI understood that this was hinted at by the hon. Gentleman. There will always be these dangers as long as human nature is imperfect, but why should you create hardships in this case? There is one particular case to which reference has not been made, and which I would like to mention. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would reconsider the matter for this reason between now and the Report stage. It is the case of the Roman Catholic priest who, because of his vow of celibacy, has to employ a housekeeper to look after his house, and in these days suffers, with the rest of us who have fixed incomes, from the rise in the cost of living and the higher expenses of taxation. I think that particular case is a reasonable one, and it is one of the cases that I know my hon. Friend had in mind.
§ Mr. SAMUELOf course, I will consider anything that is put before us during this discussion, and I think I can do so without pledging myself or giving any undertaking. I am not very learned in these matters, but I am rather of opinion that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has mis-stated the facts. I am under the impression that the Roman Catholic priest has no income.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSIs the hon. Gentleman willing to consider the case of the person who maintains out of her income a sister or other relative or friend who performs domestic duties in her own home? Is the hon. Gentleman willing to consider that point between now and the Report stage? I am rather afraid, in view of the reply of the hon. Gentleman, that unless he can guarantee that he is going to take such cases into consideration between now and Report, we shall have to carry this Motion to a Division.
§ Mr. PALINGI am surprised that the hon. Gentleman used the argument that he did. There are other ways and means of dealing with the point he mentioned. My mind goes back to several cases I have raised as a Member of this House with the Pension authorities under the War scheme. There are ways and means of dealing with that. I do not say that it is a good or a bad way, but it is not a very serious objection, and, that being 1189 disposed of, the ease of hardship remains. I understand the hon. Gentleman is prepared to give his serious consideration to this new Clause. I remember another pledge a week or two back about the lighters, and that came to nothing. I am a little suspicious that this pledge will meet with the same result.
§ Mr. SAMUELThere is no pledge. The hon. Member must not misinterpret
§ what I have said. I gave no undertaking. I said that I will give careful attention to anything that has been put forward in the Debate, but I can give no undertaking or alter what I have said.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 131; Noes, 229.
1191| Division No. 228.] | AYES. | [4.15 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hardle, George D. | Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hayday, Arthur | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hayes, John Henry | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hirst, G. H. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Scurr, John |
| Barnes, A. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Sexton, James |
| Batey, Joseph | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Shinwell, E. |
| Briant, Frank | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Broad, F. A. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Bromfield, William | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Smillie, Robert |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Snell, Harry |
| Cape, Thomas | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kelly, W. T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cluse, W. S | Kennedy, T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon, Joseph M. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Connolly, M. | Lawrence, Susan | Strauss, E. A. |
| Cove, W. G. | Lee, F. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lindley, F. W. | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Livingstone, A. M. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lowth, T. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Day, Harry | Lunn, William | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Dennison, R. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Dunnico, H. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Varley, Frank B. |
| Edge, Sir William | Malone, C. L' Estrange (N'thampton) | Viant, S. P. |
| Fanby, T. D. | March, S. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Maxtor, James | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Montague, Frederick | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Gillet, George M. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Whiteley, W. |
| Gosling, Harry | Mosley, Oswald | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent) | Murnin, H. | Williams, C. P. Denbigh, Wrexham |
| Greenall, T. | Naylor, T. E. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Oliver, George Harold | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Palin, John Henry | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Windsor, Walter |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wright, W. |
| Groves, T. | Potts, John S. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Riley, Ben | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Ritson, J. | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling. |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Blundell, F. N. | Bullock, Captain M. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Boothby, R. J. G. | Burman, J. B. |
| Albery, Irving James | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Burton, Colonel H. W. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Butler, Sir Geoffrey |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward |
| Apsley, Lord | Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Campbell, E. T. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Brass, Captain W. | Cautley, Sir Henry S. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Brassey, Sir Leonard | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Briggs, J. Harold | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Briscoe, Richard George | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Brittain, Sir Harry | Chapman, Sir S. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Christie, J. A. |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Churchill, Rt. Hon Winston Spencer |
| Bethel, A. | Buchan, John | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Buckingham, Sir H. | Cohen, Major J. Brunel |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hurd, Percy A. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) |
| Couper, J. B. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Iveagh, Countess of | Ropner, Major L. |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn., N.) | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Jephcott, A. R. | Rye, F. G. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Dalkeith. Earl of | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sandon, Lord |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Knox, Sir Alfred | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Lamb, J. O. | Savery, S. S. |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Skelton. A. N. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dine, C.) |
| Drewe, C. | Loder, J. de V. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Duckworth, John | Long, Major Eric | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Looker, Herbert William | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Lougher, Lewis | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| England, Colonel A. | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Falie, Sir Bertram G. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Macdonald. R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Fielden, E. B. | McLean, Major A. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Finburgh, S. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Templeton, W. P. |
| Forrest, W. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel | Tinne, J. A. |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Gates, Percy | Malone, Major P. B. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Margesson, Captain D. | Waddington, R. |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Meyer, Sir Frank | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Hacking, Douglas H. | Moles, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. R. C. (Ayr) | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Hanbury, C. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Wells, S. R. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Nuttall, Ellis | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks, Richm'd) |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Withers, John James |
| Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Plicher, G. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Pilditch, Sir Philip | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Power, Sir John Cecil | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Pownall, Sir Assheton | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Preston, William | Wragg, Herbert |
| Holt, Captain H. P. | Price, Major C. W. M. | |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Radford, E. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Ramsden, E. | Major Sir William Cope and Mr. |
| Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Remer, J. R. | Penny. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |