§ Mr. LANSBURYI beg to move, in page 4, line 38, to leave out from the first word "the" to the end of the Clause, and to add instead thereof the words:
delegation of the functions so transferred to appropriate committees of the council, with or without any restrictions or conditions as the council think fit, except the power of raising a rate or borrowing money.I call attention to the last words of the Amendment so as to save any sort of discussion as to this being a back-door method of giving small bodies of people the right to spend other people's money. We have got beyond that, and we all agree, and always have agreed, that those who find the money must in the end determine the policy. With that limitation, we wish to get rid of all the rest of the Clause which provides for the setting up of certain committees to do certain work, and we want, instead, that similar duties shall be carried out by similar committees. If that be not done, it will be possible for certain members of a family to be dealt with by a committee under the public assistance committee and under the Poor Law, and for other members of the family to be relieved under the present provisions of public health and other Acts which are administered by the county councils and town councils through-out the country. There seems to me to be no reason, now that we are making this very great change, why the local education authority, when it finds any child in desperate need, or not necessarily desperate, but in need of food, clothing and other necessaries of life, should provide, say, meals through the education committee, and then some other committee be called upon to supply the other needs.There may be, of course, a thorough objection by old-fashioned economists of the Manchester school to giving the child anything, but that is not under argu- 2644 ment this afternoon. What is under argument is whether, with the law as it is at present, the provision for the needs of the child shall he supplied only by one committee of the one authority or by two or three committees. I do not think that this Committee realises how many inspectors, how many doctors and how many different authorities may, in present circumstances deal with one family, how many people are called upon to visit one family in the case of destitution or sickness. The school doctor has the right, and the school district officer has the right to visit and take certain action in the case of the child who is sick and in need of food, and if the Bill now before the House becomes an Act, the school authority will be able to provide boots for the child, and, if the child needs clothing as well as boots, another committee of the same public authority will be called upon to supply the clothes. Also, if the child is in need of medical attention, it may very well be that the school doctor will deal with the child in the school and then, if it must have institutional treatment, and the local authority has not got an ordinary municipal hospital, but only a Poor Law institution, the child must go to the Poor Law institution for further treatment. That seems to me to be quite absurd, and something that ought not to persist.
It is in order to obviate that kind of thing that I am moving the Amendment. It is in order, too, to deal with this kind of situation. A woman may get maternity treatment through the local health authority, and it may very well be that when she is through her confinement, she will need something more than at present the public health authority gives her or considers it its duty to give her. It is quite absurd that, during the period of her confinement, the woman should not be treated as a pauper, and then immediately afterwards, because of the same necessity of assistance from the public authority, she should be treated as a pauper, and have to go to another committee. I would submit that the fact that you have to employ so many overlapping committees and overlapping officials to inquire into a case, is a great hardship to the poor. When the woman goes to a maternity centre, or goes to 2645 the public health authority, when she comes before the appropriate committee she is treated not at all in the same manner as under the Poor Law. I am not now wanting to say any hard words about any Poor Law official or anyone else. They have to administer the law, and the Poor Law can only be administered according to the orders laid down by the Ministry and by the law itself, and very considerable investigation into the means, etc., of the person concerned has to take place. In the case of an infant and child welfare centre, or a maternity centre there is an entirely different spirit.
Many members of this Committee have had as much experience as I have had in these matters, and they know perfectly well that to go before a relieving officer and a relief committee and to go before a maternity and child welfare committee, are entirely different things, though there is no reason in logic why there should be any differentiation. Then there may also be this ridiculous position, that the father of the family, together with a certain number of the children, may be obliged to get Poor Law relief. It may be that a man is in the workhouse and his wife is in the public health hospital or getting assistance through the maternity centre. There, again, it seems quite ludicrous that there should be that difference in status as between the man and his wife. I could mutiply these cases very considerably, but I am quite certain that everyone who has experience will agree with me that now we are handing over these services to the local authorities, we ought to deal with them, not from the point of view of destitution, but from the point of view of preventing destitution.
That brings me to the last thing I want to say. If you hand these duties to the public assistance committee set up to deal with destitution under the Poor Law, the spirit and, indeed, the practice behind that law is that you shall not take any account of individuals until they are destitute, and that is what is so palpable to-day throughout the country. The Poor Law is not expected to deal with people until they are destitute. It would be the business of the committees to which we propose that these duties should be transferred to prevent destitution, just as it is their business to prevent the spread of 2646 infectious disease. The principle we want carried through is that of preventing people falling into the destitute condition. In the elementary day school, it is the business of the teachers, if they find a child is ailing, and is beginning to be unable to take advantage of the facilities of education, to call the attention of the proper authority to prevent that child falling really into sickness and becoming very ill, and the school doctor, the school nurses and others are called in. We want that same principle to apply to all people who are obliged to come for public assistance. I repeat that it is not a question here of discussing the principle of whether public assistance is right or wrong. Parliament has long ago decided that you have to deal with people under certain conditions, and we want them dealt with under the latest principle that has been adopted by the House during the last few years. We want to get rid of the old pernicious principle of leaving people to become destitute. We want to deal with destitution on the same principle as public health is dealt with to-day.
§ Miss LAWRENCEIt is an extra ordinary thing that at this time of day we should still be perpetuating a mixed system to deal with all classes of destitution. This subject has had a very long history. We had the Poor Law Commission of 1909, the Maclean Committee which reported in 1918, the proposals of the Minister of Health in 1925 and now we have this proposal before us. One thing on which all Poor Law reformers have agreed ever since 1909 has been the need for classification of these various duties under the administration of the Poor Law. The authors of that report drew a very sharp line between destitution and unemployment. I will not go through the Majority and Minority proposals in the Report of 1909, but I want to draw the attention of this Committee to the fact that the Maclean Committee in reviewing the matter, like every other body of responsible persons who have touched the subject, pointed out the evils of dealing with those who were not fully able to deal with themselves under half a dozen different Statutes. They pointed out how the sick and infirm and the children in schools were dealt with by different methods; they pointed out the overlapping with regard to old age pensions, poor relief and so forth; and, 2647 above all, they pointed out the very absurd thing which occurred when you mixed up unemployment and ordinary destitution.
This line of action is common to all sorts of persons who consider the question of the Poor Law, and in the original provisions of the Minister of Health he was fully aware of the distinction necessary to be made between home assistance and unemployment. In the original proposal he did look at the question of unemployment and proposed that Poor Law relief should be correlated with unemployment assistance. He was, therefore, proceeding on the traditional lines, though not quite as well as Poor Law reformers would have wished. Then there came a sudden change over his policy, and in Circular 805, issued to the Poor Law authorities, he said:
The Minister has come to the conclusion that it is unnecessary to retain in any new Bill the original proposal to improve the co-ordination of public assistance by correlatingunemployment benefit and Poor Law relief; therefore any attempt at doing in this matter what every Committee had recommended was dropped. Now we are back again at the one thing that every responsible person who has dealt with the Poor Law was objecting to, namely, the want of classification and the overlapping and dealing with one case under a dozen different Statutes.This is a question of machinery. I dare say I shall disagree a great deal with the use to which the machinery is put, but the fact is that the Maclean Committee recommended not merely a public assistance committee but an unemployment and training committee. This proposal was flirted with by the Minister and then dropped; and that is the outstanding fault of the Bill now before us. We do not want to leave unemployment under the Poor Law—we have another scheme, and we want to take it away from the local authorities—but the school of thought which believes that the relief of the unemployed should be carried on under the Poor Law has always also said that it should be by means of a separate committee in close connection with training and employment.
Now, after 1909, after 1918, after 1925, we have the Minister abandoning all 2648 attempts to regulate and give order to this matter. This is not even a reform of machinery it makes the machine worse in many respects, and it does not deal with the cardinal sin of the Poor Law, which is want of classification. It is a good many months ago that the Minister gave an answer to the effect that 121 unions gave no relief on account of the able-bodied unemployed. I have never heard a word of deprecation from the officials of the Ministry of Health towards those unions where no relief is given to the unemployed, and I have seriously at the back of my mind the suspicion that what this means is that the old Order of 1911 is going to be put in full force, and that there is no special provision for relief for the able-bodied unemployed, because the increasing tendency of the Poor Law is to cast them out altogether and revert to the state of affairs where out-relief to the able bodied did not exist. For these two reasons, because it is bad business and bad classification, and because of the suspicion that is in my mind, I want to support the Amendment.
§ The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Chamberlain)I have listened to the two speeches which have been delivered upon this Amendment, and unless I have completely misunderstood them, they appear to me to have been going over exactly the same ground that we covered when we were dealing with Clause 4. The point appears to me to be exactly the same, and the answer I must give to this Amendment is exactly the same answer that I gave on that occasion. It is not that there is a difference of policy between us, it is not that the Government intend to encourage the local authorities to keep all the transferred functions for ever under the public assistance committees; it is simply that it would be physically impossible, to begin with, to hand over to the appropriate committees, as is suggested, the various functions which are to be transferred. Take the case which the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) cited. He said, "Suppose you have a local authority which has no municipal or public hospital, but which has only a Poor Law institution." Well, there will be a great many local authorities in that position.
§ Mr. LANSBURYSurely the Poor Law hospital will be transferred to the council under the public health committee.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINYes, I hope it will be, but it cannot be done on the day after this Bill becomes law.
§ Mr. LANSBURYSurely it can.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINThe hon. Member must know that in order to make a proper scheme the new authority has got to sit down and consider all the institutions in the area, and it cannot make that survey and come to a conclusion and carry out the structural alterations which will be necessary in a day; it must have time. All that we are doing here is, in the first instance, to transfer these functions to the authority, and then the public assistance committee will have those functions transferred to it, and no doubt will make recommendations, but, after all, this administrative scheme is not a rigid thing, which, once made, will last for ever. There is ample power to modify schemes as and when it is possible and desirable to do so, and I must say that I think it is a little unreasonable, after what I said on Clause 4, when I made it clear that that was the view of the Government, and when I went so far as to say that I would, between then and the Report stage, put words in Clause 4 to make it clear that that was the policy of the Government, when I explained all that, and that it was merely physical reasons which prevented us from pushing the policy farther—I say it is a little unreasonable that we should have it all over again on this Clause, and I hope in the circumstances we may be allowed to proceed with something of greater substance.
§ Miss LAWRENCEThe Minister's public assistance committee covers the same ground as the public assistance committee and training and unemployment committee of the Maclean Report. Will he put in words to provide that the scheme shall provide for both those things?
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINI am not prepared to put in words to lay it down that the local authority must set up an unemployment and training committee. I have said before that I consider that the local authorities must be allowed to do their business in their own way.
§ Mr. HARRISI do not pretend to deal with matters outside of London, because I find that my hands are quite full enough in looking after London local government, but I want to be quite clear as to the difference between London and other parts of the country in this respect. On Clause 15 the Minister of Health is himself moving an Amendment
for the reference or delegation by the London County Council to any committee of that council (including the public assistance committee) of any of the functions transferred to the council under this Part of this Act except the power of raising a rate or borrowing money.I suggest to the Minister that that Amendment, with the exception of the words in brackets, is very nearly equivalent to this Amendment. I am open to correction, but what I understand the London County Council want to avoid—and, to the credit of the right hon. Gentleman, he has given us this concession at the instigation of that council—and what I understand the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) wants to avoid is, that the public assistance committee should be the one channel through which all this new work should be delegated. That will not only lead to delay, but is bound to add to the cost, and lead to friction and irritation between the various committees. It might be interesting to read an extract from the report of the London County Council on this subject, which is very pertinent to the point made by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley. It says:An arrangement of this kind under which the several committees concerned would be placed under the direction and control of another committee as regards specified functions is, so far as we are aware, without precedent in local government, and, in our opinion, would be open to grave objection on administrative grounds.The proposals in the Bill relating to the public assistance committee coupled with the obligation on the council to receive reports from that committee before dealing with such matters would create an administrative position which we particularly desired should be avoided, and strong representations on this point were made at the recent conference with the Minister of Health.To do the Minister credit, he has listened to those representations, and is himself fathering an Amendment, originally put on the Paper by my hon. Friend the Member for West Fulham (Sir C. Cobb). Much as I wish to fight London's battles, 2651 and to see efficient administration of these new powers in London, I do not see why these advantages should not be shared by the rest of the country. If the Minister is prepared to make this most reasonable concession for London, I cannot see why he cannot meet, at any rate halfway, the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley. In all the counties, all over the country, such things as the boarding out and the education of Poor Law children would automatically go to the education committee if left to themselves, but, as I understand it, if there is not an alteration in the Bill, they will automatically go to the public assistance committee, and then there will be a sort of battledore and shuttlecock between the two committees to decide which shall be responsible. If the Minister wishes to meet with immediate success for his machinery, it seems to me that something on the lines suggested by the Amendment now before the Committee and of the concession made to the London County Council should be done all over the country.
§ Mr. SIDNEY WEBBI am afraid that we are in a tangle here between the Minister's intentions and the words in the Bill or in the Amendment, as the case may be. On Clause 4, the Minister of Health made certain undertakings and said his intention was that when this Measure becomes law, after the necessary time has elapsed to allow the local authorities to make the required arrangements, everything that can be done for the children should be done by the committee administering the powers under the Education Acts, and that everything that is to be done for the sick, including maternity and old age, everything that requires nursing and medical treatment, should be done by the committee set up under the Public Health Acts. I understand that to be the intention of the Minister, hut it seems a little obscure whether that will be the actual result of the words as they now stand.
The Minister has been good enough to say that he will consider what words he can insert in order to make it clear that this is his policy, but we have not seen those words. We have seen the concession which he has made to the London 2652 County Council, and that concession goes a long way. The Amendment which the Minister will move to Clause 15 will allow the London County Council to transfer to any of its Committees, any part of the functions which they have to perform, whether they are to be performed under the Poor Law or under the Education Acts or the Public Health Acts. That is to say, the whole of what has to be done for the children of school age, including what is now done under the Education Acts and what is being done under the Poor Law, it will be possible for the London County Council to delegate to its Education Committee. The Minister will perhaps be good enough to look into that to see if that is what is intended.
At present, under the Poor Law authorities and the education authorities there are three codes of law. There is first what the local authority can do under the Education Act, secondly what can be done both under the Education Acts and under the Poor Law and thirdly, what can be done only under the Poor Law. These three functions, so the Minister agrees, are to be transferred in London to the Education Committee. Therefore, the Education Committee will be administering so far as children are concerned both Poor Law and the Education Acts. The Machinery of Government Committee laid it down as a proper classification of administration that everything relating to one set of persons should be dealt with together, and that various things to be done for the same set of persons should not be done by different authorities but by one authority only. Take the case of the sick. The London County Council will be able, under the Minister's Amendment, to delegate to the Public Health Committee not only all the functions which it exercises under the Public Health Act and similar Acts and those which it can perform both under the Poor Law and the Public Health Act but also all the functions to be exercised in regard to the sick and the infirm and the infants, which can at present be done only by the boards of guardians. The Minister, following out the principle of breaking up the Poor Law, rightly intends that these three sets of powers should be delegated to the Public Health Committee of the London County Council. As for the children, he intends that the transfer should be made to the Educa- 2653 tion Committee, and that the three sets of powers—education powers, double powers, and Poor Law Powers—should be delegated to it.
We are asking that that same power should be given to the Town Council of Manchester, or the Town Council of Liverpool, or the County Councils of Lancashire or Kent or Essex, and that they should have freedom to refer to the appropriate committees everything that they are going to have power to do. We do not ask that they should be given further powers, but whatever powers they are given, they should be able to delegate everything relating to the children of school age to the education committee, and everything relating to the sick, to the health committee. I understand that to be the Minister's policy. The Amendment which the Minister proposes to move to Clause 15 is a great concession, but it does not appear in Clause 4. I am not suggesting that the Minister is likely to go back upon his agreement with the London County Council. It is the clearly expressed desire of the London County Council and is in accordance with the long string of authorities who since 1909, have recommended this course. I would remind the Minister that he accepted a Motion which I moved in this House in 1925, which distinctly said that all the functions with regard to the sick and infirm should be dealt with by the health committee and all the functions with regard to the children of school age should be dealt with by the education committee, and so on. All we are asking is that the same powers should be given to the Town Council of Liverpool and the Town Council of. Manchester with regard to this allocation to committees and that they should have the same freedom as is proposed to be given to the London County Council.
As the Bill stands, the Town Council of Liverpool will not be able to transfer to the appropriate committee anything except two out of the three classes of powers; they will be able to refer to the health committee all their public health powers with regard to the sick, and refer under Clause 4, to that committee all the double powers that they will possess both under the Public Health Acts or under the Poor Law; but they will not be able to transfer to the appropriate com- 2654 mittee those powers with regard to the sick which they can exercise only as a Poor Law authority. They are bound to delegate all those powers which are not duplicated at present to the Public Assistance Committee, and that committee will accordingly be the old omnium gatherum, the mixed authority which deals with the sick, the tramp, the vagrant, the infant and the child of school age. They will have to deal with all these things together, and, except in regard to London, that is all that there is on the Paper with reference to the Minister's policy and intention.
I cannot believe that it is the Minister's intention to deny to such authorities as those of Liverpool, Lancashire and the West Riding the freedom which is to be accorded to the London County Council. The right hon. Gentleman said he did not wish to prescribe to town councils to which committees they shall refer their work, and we ask that he should not prescribe to them the public assistance committee as a committee, to which must be delegated all this miscellaneous set of duties relating to different classes of work. There is one other matter. None of the local authorities will have an appropriate committee for dealing with the able-bodied. We want them, as the Maclean Committee wanted them, to have a committee for dealing with the unemployed, but that cannot be done under this Bill because their powers under the Unemployed Workmen Act will be taken from them. If they have no committee, and cannot have a committee for dealing with the unemployed, it means that the able-bodied unemployed must compulsorily be relegated to this omnium gatherum public assistance committee, and be dealt with along with tramps, the nursing mother, the poor widow, and other classes of persons. I ask the Minister to consider the policy of allowing local authorities to delegate their powers to whatever committee they think to be the appropriate committee, and also that they should be allowed to appoint an appropriate committee for dealing with the able-bodied unemployed.
Mr. BECKETTI am surprised that the Minister should have dealt with this Amendment as though it were of no importance. He gave a very flippant 2655 reply to it, and the only point which he made, or at any rate the only point which received any applause from his supporters, was his extravagant picture of the absurdity of the Opposition wanting to hand over all sorts of machinery and institutions on the appointed day at once to existing committees of the council. Whether we want to hand over the machinery and institutions to a committee on a certain day or not, the Bill provides for it. The point is not whether they have to be handed over; the point is whether they should be handed over to a new committee, as the Minister suggests in the Bill, or whether they should be handed over to committees which already have had some experience of handling the matters concerned, especially when, according to Clause 112, they are not to be handed over for six months after the appointed day in 1930. The one little point which the Minister succeeded in making in opposition to the Amendment, therefore, dwindles down to the fact that in two and a half years from now, after the appropriate local committee has had at least two years to deal with the matter, we propose to hand the duties over. If the Bill be understood as a whole, the point with which the Minister attempted to raise opposition to the Amendment falls in its appropriate place in the arguments for this Amendment.
It is not an Amendment for which there can be any kind of party feeling; it is merely brought forward to enable the work, which every Member is agreed is necessary, to be done in a more humane and efficient way than we feel that it can be done under this Bill. Indeed, any Member of the Committee may well face with considerable fear and diffidence the idea that, after this Bill has come into force, and when the Poor Law and other functions mentioned in Clause 4 are handed over to the county councils, we are going to have unemployment, destitution, blind persons, mental deficiency, tubercular cases and the great problems of preventing destitution mixed up with the question of providing decent social services for the poor people. It will be a foolish and ridiculous thing to place all those matters in the hands of one committee, especially a committee which, if the Clause be not amended, 2656 will consist very largely of co-opted members.
I would like to find words to express the human, psychological side of the effect which this is going to have. It is not just a matter of assigning a thing to one appropriate committee or another. Somebody said that after the Reformation all England was divided into appropriate committees by the bureaucrats. I do not know whether that is so. Personally, in my short public career I have served on so many appropriate committees that I sometimes think they ought all to be hanged by the neck. If we have all this allocation of services to appropriate and largely co-opted local committees, we are surrounding this problem with an entirely wrong atmosphere. I have been on a local authority, and I have been on a public health committee, and I know the attitude which is taken up the members. Within their limited powers and within their limited financial scope the members endeavour to make their clinics and their health services as efficient and effective as possible. Whatever their politics, when people get on to a committee dealing with one particular department of local service they are likely to become imbued with a spirit of healthy competition as between one committee and another and as between one locality and another; there is an air of pride, and a desire to see the health services or the mental deficiency service or the education service made as efficient as possible. But when you lump all these branches of work together, and have people dealing with lunatics one day, school children the next, expectant mothers the next, then destitute people, then unemployed people who are deserving, tramps and casuals who are on the road through ill-luck and tramps and casuals who are on the road through same unhappy or vicious streak in their temperaments, it is not in the nature of men and women, whatever their party or whatever their views, to take the same interest in their work. I believe every Member of this Committee would support my contention.
From personal knowledge. I say that it is not possible for people serving on these committees to turn their minds from expectant mothers to mentally deficient people, from the treatment of the mentally deficient to the treatment of 2657 the unemployed, and from the prevention of destitution to the treatment of casuals. If all these duties are cast upon them, one of two things will inevitably happen. They will either become so thoroughly jaded, so thoroughly hardened in the old Poor Law spirit which the Minister is so anxious to perpetuate, that they will be unable to give proper attention to the social services, which ought not to be connected with the Poor Law, or, on the other hand they will, as I hope, become so impressed with the needs of the social services that they will refuse to consider the Poor Law problem.
I have discussed this Bill, and particularly these Poor Law Clauses, with a great many members of local authorities of all shades of political opinions, and almost all of them were unanimous in saying that they were amazed that the present Minister should introduce this one particular Clause. I join in that amazement. We are constantly watching the fight between the Jekyll and Hyde of the right hon. Gentleman. When we have the privilege of meeting him in his Department about individual cases or on deputations, we see the patient, balanced and very knowledgeable administrator; in this House, more often, we see the rather callous party politician.
Mr. BECKETTIf you like my first description you must put up with my second. I cannot disentangle the two. In this case it seems to me that the desire to lump all these people together, with the result that they will not get decent and generous treatment, has quite overcome the right hon. Gentleman's desire as an efficient administrator to see that all local government work should be done properly by the proper people. I am supported in that view by the record of the rake's progress of the right hon. Gentleman. He has not always taken his present line, he has not always said "Let us lump unemployed, tramps, school children and expectant mothers all together." It is quite true that he has always encouraged and smiled upon boards of guardians and local authorities who were reactionary, but in his public utterances and in his own policies he has not taken that retrograde and reactionary line all at once; he has only gradually been forced into it.
2658 The proposal of the Maclean Committee, about which the right hon. Gentleman expressed very flattering opinions, was almost exactly on the lines of this Amendment, and the right hon. Gentleman did not express any opposition to that. Even as late as June, 1927, in Circular 805, in which, though he was beginning his retrograde movement it was not so pronounced as it is now, he said then that he had come to the conclusion that it was unnecessary to retain in any new Bill the original proposal to improve the co-ordination of public assistance by correlating payments of benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Acts with payment of relief under the Poor Law. In 1927, although he had thrown away his first proposals, under which he had led us to believe that he was in favour of preventing destitution rather than of treating it when it arose, he had not gone quite so far as lie has gone in this Bill in the indiscriminate lumping together of all these functions. It is no answer for the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary to say that under the concessions they made to us on Clause 4 things may not be quite as bad as we are afraid they will be, because even if progressive and advanced authorities take advantage of all those concessions they will be able to remove only one or two isolated problems from this conglomeration of misery, which the present Bill will stir into a muddy administrative mess. Even if a progressive authority takes the fullest advantage of the concessions made on Clause 4 we shall have only two or three items removed from the list, and we shall still have to have this extraordinary creation, the public assistance committee, supplanting other committees which have given years of service to social work. We have no reason to believe that immediately we get this legislation into operation the whole outlook of the more reactionary parts of the country represented by many of the hon. Members opposite will be changed to a more progressive outlook. They will still continue to be reactionary and they will still be able to hold up the decent administration of local affairs.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood)I wish to say a few words in reply to the hon. Member for 2659 South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb). I do not think I need comment at any length on the speech of the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Beckett), which was a repetition of the arguments used on an earlier occasion, and I hope that he, at any rate, will not be complaining at half-past seven that we have not been able to make more progress. As regards the London County Council and their position under this Amendment, I do not know whether the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham have noticed that the Amendment is mandatory. It compels the delegation of the functions amongst the appropriate committees. It says that it shall be done, and gives no option to the local authorities concerned. It will be noticed in regard to Clause 15 that the powers there are permissive and, therefore, there is a considerable difference in that respect between that Clause and this Amendment. Then I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham that it is quite possible for a local authority to declare that they will adopt the administrative scheme which is suggested in Clause 4, and if they do so the various matters referred to in that Clause would go automatically to the appropriate committees of that authority.
§ Mr. WEBBNo. The point is that Clause 4 shows what a council can do under the Education Acts and also what it can do under both the Education Acts and the Poor Law, but it will be impossible—at least I ask the right hon. Gentleman to say whether this is not so—for the council to delegate to the Education Committee what it has power to do for the children not under the Education Acts but under the Poor Law only. Is that so or not?
§ Sir K. WOODYes. It does not extend their powers. I do not want to put it higher than that. The Maclean Committee used a very curious phrase in their recommendations. They said that the powers of the local education authority should be "suitably extended" but they did not say what. "suitably extended" meant.
§ Sir K. WOODMy right hon. Friend has stated, in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham, that we are considering whether it is possible in any way still further to meet the desire which he has in this connection, and I think it would be for the convenience of everybody in the House, whatever they desire or do not desire in regard to the remaining Amendments on this Clause, to await the suggestion which my right hon. Friend has promised to make. I do not think anyone desires that this power should be mandatory. At any rate, I understand that the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green and his party do not desire that it should be mandatory.
§ Mr. WEBBI quite accept the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary, and I agree that this point ought to be left over. I want to be quite clear in this matter. May I point out that the concession which has been made on Clause 4 has no relation whatever to what is required to be done by this Amendment. I understand that the Minister of Health is including the point I have raised in the undertaking which he has given.
§ Sir K. WOODNo.
§ Mr. WEBBThen my point is not dealt with at all, and it will be impossible for the city council of Liverpool to delegate to the education committee the power for dealing with the children under the Poor Law, and it will be compelled, whatever it does under Clause 4, to delegate the special powers which it will have only under the Poor Law with regard to children of school age to the Public Assistance Committee. The city council will be free under Clause 4 to delegate to its health committee all the powers under the Public Health Act and such powers as it can exercise either under the Poor Law or the Education Acts, but it will not be free to delegate to any other committee but the Public Assistance Committee any of the new powers which it will receive, and which it cannot exercise under the Public Health Acts and can only exercise under the Poor Law. I understand the Parliamentary Secretary to say that the Minister of Health has promised to consider that point.
§ Sir K. WOODNo.
§ Mr. WEBBThen the city council of Liverpool will be deprived of the very important powers which are being given to the London County Council and all the other local authorities. I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman cannot meet us upon this point.
§ Mr. ERNEST BROWNI think the attention of the Committee ought to be drawn to what the Maclean Report says on this point. On page 10, in paragraph 24, the Maclean Committee recommend as follows:
24. We are confining our recommendations to the services hitherto undertaken by the boards of guardians, but it is impossible to provide efficiently and economically for such services without taking account, according to the actual circumstances of each county, of the existing provision for the sick that is already made under the Public Health Acts. We suggest that each county council should be required to prepare, after consultation with the various authorities within its area, a scheme, for the approval of the Local Government Board, showing how it is proposed that the provision for the sick and infirm (including maternity and infancy and the aged needing institutional care) hitherto provided under the Poor Law should be carried out for every part of the county.That does not agree with the quotation which has been made by the Parlia-
§
mentary Secretary. There is another passage on page 12 of the same Report which goes definitely in the direction of the Amendment now under discussion. It is paragraph (5), which reads as follows:
Medical assistance in the home should be given by the staff of the medical officer of health under Public Health Acts suitably extended.
Surely that recommendation is in favour of the proposal which is now made. If there is any meaning at all in it, it means that all the directions in regard to preventive medicine shall be under one authority. If there is any meaning at all in the bringing of these bodies together, surely it is that they shall do a kind of team work for the whole of the public health services of the country. I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary has shown his usual care in dealing with the Maclean Report, and, if he wishes to carry out the intentions of those who are backing this Bill, I think he ought to accept this Amendment.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'and,' in line 39, stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 203; Noes. 112.
2663| Division No. 71.] | AYES. | [5.6 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte. Lieut.-Colonel | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Albery, Irving James | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Goff, Sir Park |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman | Cooper, A. Duff | Grace, John |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Cope, Major Sir William | Grant. Sir J. A. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Grotrlan, H. Brent |
| Astor, Viscountess | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Baldwin. Rt. Hon. Stanley | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Hacking, Douglas H. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M | Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Hamilton, Sir George |
| Benn Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Cunliffe. Sir Herbert | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Berry. Sir George | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Harland. A. |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Dawson, Sir Philip | Hartington, Marquess of |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Brass. Captain W. | Eden, Captain Anthony | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Headlam, Lieut. Colonel C. M. |
| Briggs, J Harold | Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Heneage, Lieut.-Col, Arthur P. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. |
| Brocklcbank, C. E. R. | Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Hills, Major John Walter |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Everard, W. Lindsay | Hilton, Cecil |
| Buchan, John | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. |
| Buckingham. Sir H. | Falls. Sir Bertram G. | Holt, Captain H. P. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Ford. Sir P. J. | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster. Mossley) |
| Cayzer. Sir C. (Chester, City) | Forrest, W. | Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. |
| Cazalet. Captain Victor A. | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A.(Birm., W.) | Fraser, Captain Ian | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Christie, J. A. | Fremantle, Lieut-Colonel Francis E. | Hurd, Percy A. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Galbralth. J. F. W. | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Ganzonl, Sir John | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Gates, Percy | Iveagh, Countess of |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunei | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Peto. G. (Somerset, Frome) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Kindersiev. Major G. M. | Pilditch, Sir Philip | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Power, Sir John Cecil | Tasker, R. Inlgo. |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Pownall, Sir Assheton | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Knox. Sir Alfred | Preston, William | Thomson. F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Locker, Cunilffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Price, Major C. W. M. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell |
| Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Ramsden, E. | Tlnne, J. A. |
| Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Remer, J. R. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Rentoul, G. S. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. Georqe Clement |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Rhys. Hon. C. A. U. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Macmillan, Captain H. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y) | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Macqulsten. F. A. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| MacRobert, Alexander M. | Ropner. Major L. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Maitland, A. (Kent, Faveraham) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel | Rye. F. G. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Salmon, Major I. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Wells, S. R. |
| Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Sandeman, N. Stewart | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M | Sanders Sir Robert A. | Wilson. R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Moore. Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Sandon, Lord | Withers. John James |
| Moore. Sir Newton J. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Savery, S. S. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Nelson, Sir Frank | Scott. Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Shepperson. E. W | Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'ge & Hyde). |
| Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Smith, R W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne.C.) | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Smith-Carington. Neville W. | Wood, Sir S. Hill (High Peak) |
| Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Smithers, Waldron | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Nuttall, Ellis | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L |
| Oakley, T. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Wright, Brig.-General W. D. |
| Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Stanley, Lieut-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. P. | |
| Penny, Frederick George | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Perkins, Colonel E K. | Streatfelld, Captain S. R. | Cartain Margesson and Captain Bowyer. |
| Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Styles, Captain H. Walter | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Harney, E. A. | Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Harris, Percy A. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Scurr, John |
| Baker. Walter | Hirst, G. H. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Barnes, A. | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Shinwell, E. |
| Barr, J. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Sltesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bellamy, A. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) | Strauss, E. A. |
| Briant, Frank | Kelly, W. T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Broad, F. A. | Kennedy, T. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Bromfield, William | Lansbury, George | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Lawrence, Susan | Thorne, W (West Ham, Plalstow) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Lawson, John James | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Charlcton, H. C. | Lee, F. | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Livingstone, A. M. | Townend, A. E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lowth, T. | Viant, S. P. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lunn, William | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Dalton. Hugh | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Mackinder, W. | Warne, G. H. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | MacLaren, Andrew | Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Dennison, R. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Dunnico, H. | March, S. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Gardner, J. P. | Maxton, James | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Montague, Frederick | Welsh, J. C. |
| Gillett, George M. | Morris, R. H. | Westwood, J. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Whiteley, W. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Naylor, T. E. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Grerfell. D. R. (Glamorgan) | Oliver, George Harold | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Owen, Major G. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Parkinson. John Allen (Wigan) | Windsor, Walter |
| Grundy, T. W. | Pethick-Lawrence. F. W. | Wright, W. |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Ponsonby, Arthur | |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) | Potts, John S. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling. |
| Hardle, George D. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) |
§ Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITHI beg to move, in page 4, line 39, after the word "committee," to insert the words:
representative, in the case of an administrative county, of every district comprised within the area of that council,2664 The object of this Amendment is to ensure that the Public Assistance Committee shall be fully representative of the different areas within the county. These proposals are sweeping away authorities against which complaints may have been 2665 urged, but which had the merit of being representative in their way. Now that a new authority is being set up, we have to see that the change does not lose us more than it gains for us, and from that point of view this Amendment is extremely important. The Minister of Health, in speaking on the last Amendment called attention to the fact that every public authority, in drafting its scheme, had to consider all the various institutions within its area. When it has done that, it appoints its public assistance committee, which, to begin with at any rate, is to be the authority to deal with those various institutions, situated in every part of the area. From that point of view, and, indeed, from every point of view, it is very important that there should be a fully representative authority. There is going to be an enormous variety of functions, and an enormous area will have to be covered. If it be objected that in the case of some administrative counties the proposal made in this Amendment, would give a very large committee, that is really a criticism, not of this Amendment, but of the administrative unit proposed by the Bill, and it might be necessary to deal with that in another way. All that I am trying to do at the moment is to ensure that these large new committees which are to be set up to deal with all the various functions in the large areas in question shall at least be representative of every part of the area with which they have to deal.
§ Sir K. WOODI think that most people will be in sympathy with the general object of this Amendment, that is to say, that the public assistance committee shall be as representative as possible of the various districts comprising the area with which it has to deal. It must, however, be remembered that this is a public assistance committee of the council, and I think it is desirable that the council should be responsible for and choose its own representatives. I do not know that there is any reason to apprehend that any council will not make its public assistance committee, or any other committee that it may appoint, as representative at it can. It would be very unwise, unless it were absolutely necessary, for the House of Commons to begin to dictate to the local authorities how particular committees of an autho- 2666 rity should be composed. If we have any belief in democratic local government, we must trust, especially, these larger bodies in matters of this kind. If county councils, for instance, cannot be trusted on the question of how this particular committee should be manned, that is a very serious indictment of our local administration, and, I am afraid, does not show that hope and belief in local government which I thought animated the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment.
This matter is one more for the Standing Orders and the practice of the particular authority concerned, and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we have in subsection (2) of Clause 6 put forward a scheme which will keep the guardians' committees in close contact with the public assistance committee. That we shall discuss further in what I hope will be a short time. The real answer, of course, as the hon. Gentleman apprehended in his endeavour to anticipate the reply which blows this Amendment out of the water, is that it would be quite impossible, in the case, say, of the West Biding, to have 148 representatives on the public assistance committee. I am afraid it is not sufficient for the hon. Gentleman to introduce an Amendment and say, "I am very sorry, but this Amendment does not work because your scheme upsets it." Unfortunately, this Amendment will not work. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would not desire to see a public assistance committee consisting of 148 representatives. For all these reasons I think we must trust the competence of the local authorities to man their public assistance committees in such a way that they will be really representative of the area.
§ Mr. ERNEST BROWNThe right hon. Gentleman on democracy is more than usually amusing. Having successfully undermined everything in democracy that can be got by means of a popularly elected authority, he is discussing a proposal which will allow co-opted persons to have a better right than elected persons in non-county boroughs and urban or rural district councils, and he turns round and suggests that we are not democratic because we desire to see the smaller areas get proper representation. The right hon. Gentleman is like an Australian barracker on the cricket field 2667 at Sydney. He has counted out the boards of guardians, but he does not propose to discuss his own team. We do desire to discuss the team, for, whatever may be the merits or demerits of the scheme which has been counted out by the barracker on the Front Bench, we consider that there are greater demerits in the proposals contained in the Clause that is now before the Committee.
The hon. Member for East Ham North (Miss Lawrence) on Friday expressed regret that she had not a blackboard. I have not a blackboard, but I have prepared a graph which hon. Members can look at, because I believe that the question of these committees is just as complicated as the formula which was under discussion on Friday. In the first place, we have, A, the guardians who have been counted out by the right hon. Gentleman and the Minister, and now we are to have B, the county council, and C, the public assistance committee which we are DOW discussing. Inside the area of the public assistance committee there are various other bodies popularly elected, namely, E, the non-county boroughs, F, the urban district councils, and G, the rural district councils. Then, coming to H, we have co-opted persons who have never been elected to anything by anyone. They are to go straight to C, the committee which we are now discussing, and which has been appointed by the county council, although they have never been elected, and the other persons will only get on to the public assistance committee through the medium of a sub-committee, D, called the guardians' committee. For the right hon. Gentleman, after the proposals which I have illustrated in this graph, to talk about democracy, is like Satan rebuking sin.
With regard to the Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman has given away the demerits of his own scheme; he admits that it will not work. I agree that it will not work. Let us take the very area to which he refers, the West Riding of Yorkshire. That is an administrative county with 1,652,000 acres. It has at the moment 31 separate boards of guardians, and serving on those 31 separate boards of guardians are 1,261 guardians. The county council of the West Riding consists of 30 aldermen and 90 2668 councillors. All the major functions that are now performed by 1,261 guardians are to be given in two directions: firstly, to the county council and the county boroughs—and included in the 31 unions are 10 or 11 county boroughs—and then all the other little towns, all the urban districts, and all the rural districts, are to get the administration of their Poor Law functions through the centralised council of the administrative county, which has now only 120 members. I agree that the thing is utterly unworkable if you are to have that local knowledge of the areas which is so eminently desirable in work of this kind, which deals, not with material things, but with human beings, and human beings in dire need.
Let me refer to one particular board of guardians in this area, namely, that of North Bierley. This is one of the most efficient boards of guardians in the whole of the United Kingdom. Let us consider the position of the little towns in the North Bierley Union. At the present there are inside that union 130,000 people on 30,000 acres. The union is spread over nine Parliamentary divisions, and there are inside it five towns with more than 10,000 inhabitants. They are ably managed towns, sending able representatives to the union. There is Cleckheaton with 12,537 inhabitants, Eccleshill, with 10,760, North Bierley itself with 15,914, Pudsey with 14,313, and Shipley with 28,277. At the moment Cleckheaton has three representatives on the North Bierley Board of Guardians, Eccleshill has two, North Bierley four, Pudsey three, and Shipley five. How will they stand when they are only one among 31 unions administered—[Interruption.] —Hon. Members opposite may mock, but they will not go down to these areas and face the electors there and mock. After all, we are not dealing with some trivial thing that does not matter; we are dealing with the utter dislocation of the whole administration of the Poor Law in every county in the land.
The instance to which I am referring is not one of my own choice; the right hon. Gentleman himself chose this very area as an illustration, and I am showing that the scheme which involves this centralised public assistance committee of the county council cannot work and cannot give adequate representation to areas of such importance as the one to 2669 which I am referring. It must be remembered that this public assistance committee will have to deal with all Poor Law functions except that of administering outdoor money relief, which is to be carried out through a sub-committee. In a great county like the West Riding of Yorkshire, if two-thirds of the members of the committee are to be county councillors and one-third co-opted persons, it will mean that all the smaller areas which have no county councillors will be represented merely by co-opted persons.
There are one or two other illustrations. Take the case of Gloucestershire, which has nearly 800,000 acres. There are 16 boards of guardians, and the total number of guardians 's 591. The county council consists of 20 aldermen and 61 councillors. That means that 81 persons, plus the co-opted members of the public assistance committee—one-third—are to administer the whole of the major Poor Law functions in the county of Gloucestershire with one exception. The Attorney-General would not be sitting so happily on the Front Bench if, instead of representing a division of the city of Bristol —which is a county borough and will have its own public assistance committee —he sat for, say, Cheltenham, which has a board of guardians of its own, consisting of 39 representatives. Cheltenham, being a non-county borough, will no longer have a board of guardians of its own, and all its functions will be merged in the county of Gloucester. I submit that it is supremely important that Cheltenham should know how many representatives it is going to have to look after the business of its board on the public assistance committee which is presently to be formed.
Then there is Cirencester, which at the moment has its own board of guardians. There are on that board 46 members; how many members will it have on the public assistance committee? Will it have any? I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can tell us, but we ought to have answers to these questions before he turns down the Amendment in the summary and casual way in which he did it. Take Stow-on-the-Wold, one of the loveliest places in rural England. It has its own board of guardians with 30 members. Is it to have any representation on the public assistance committee or are the people 2670 merely to get to hear from the county town, 30 or 40 miles away, what is to be done? This is a very serious thing for this reason. One of the things that trouble poor people most about the Poor Law is the removal of their sick friends to institutions. Now they may have some reasonable assurance that they will be taken to the nearest institution to their home, but if you have centralised administration for the county area, there can be no such assurance. Hon. Members may smile, but I am sure the hon. Member for Stroud (Sir F. Nelson) will not smile. Stroud is not a county borough. Its hoard of guardians, with 44 members, will go. How many members will it have on the public assistance committee of Gloucester? It will be a very serious thing if the daughter, son or father of an agricultural labourer is taken for medical treatment 30 or 40 miles further away than under the present arrangement.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is going a little beyond the question of representation.
§ Mr. BROWNI submit that everything I am saying is utterly germane. We are trying to get adequate representation for these very small authorities. The whole consideration of the Bill has been vitiated from the beginning because the right hon. Gentleman and the Minister of Health only think in terms, of the great cities and large towns, not having given any adequate consideration to the rural parts of the country. They do not understand how distance makes an entirely fresh problem. [Interruption.] It is not my fault that the guillotine will fall at half-past seven. If hon. Members who are waiting to move their Amendments had supported mine, they would not so eagerly be waiting for me to sit down. I cannot imagine a more important issue than this. The right hon. Gentlman, in his desire to simplify, has complicated the problem for the centralised bureaucrat and for every efficient local administrator now doing his duty in the local board of guardians, who will find no seat on the centralised public assistance committee, and he has complicated it for every elector in every small parish who will not have a personal representative on the centralised public assistance committee 2671 unless an Amendment of this kind is put into the Bill. He would be wise in his own interest and in the interest of his supporters from the smaller districts if he accepted the Amendment.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODWhether this Amendment is possible or not, it illustrates admirably the difficulties to which the Bill is going to introduce us. Here you have a centralising Measure, thoroughly undemocratic, taking away powers from the smaller local authorities and handing them over to a centralised authority. The inevitable result of such a Measure must be that there is less local touch with the administration. At present, with your local boards of guardians, the people who are in need of assistance have a chance of seeing the people in charge of that assistance. They have the relieving officer still, but the guardians will no longer be there. This Amendment asks that each district, particularly rural ones, should have a representative on the new public assistance committee, so that there may be someone in the district to whom they can go. The districts I am acquainted with are very often 10 miles long by three wide. The personal touch will go entirely, and there is merely the relieving officer for the indigent person to deal with. The natural result of the whole of this part of the Bill is to destroy the human touch and to substitute red-tape. The relieving officer must work by rule-of-thumb method, and the whole of the personal element in the administration of the Poor Law, as far as country districts are concerned, vanishes. That is one of the necessary evil results of this Bill. But do not let the right hon. Gentleman tell us that the Bill is democracy. It is bureaucracy. The relieving officer will be independent of his committee. He will be able to carry on the administration most efficiently no doubt, and the administration may cost the country less, but it will break the hearts of the poor.
§ Mr. WALLHEADThis is a very serious matter that we are considering. At present, if a relieving officer is exercising his functions in a particularly harsh manner, there are ample sources of appeal open to those affected by his decisions. They know the guardians. Very often they are friendly with them. 2672 What is needed is less harshness in the Poor Law and rather more humanity. I think there is going to be less humanity than there is at present. There will be very few people indeed to whom aggrieved persons can get access once the bill becomes law. The number of avenues along which grievances can run will be damned almost completely. Take, for instance, Glamorgan, which is as big as the West Riding of Yorkshire. The administrative county consists of 474,607 acres, excluding the county boroughs. There are only three county boroughs, so that practically the whole county comes under the purview of this very limited number of persons who will constitute the Poor Law authority. The number of guardians in the eight unions is 481. Take the number of members of the county council. There are 23 aldermen and 66 councillors—only 88 persons, and two-thirds of them on the co-opted committee—to cover 474,000 acres. This is the more important at present because Glamorgan is almost entirely a distressed area where some sympathy is needed for dealing with the conditions of the people, and if the Government are likely to remain in office, which God forbid, those conditions are likely to continue. As far as one can see, the Government are making no proposal which can rid Glamorgan of its terrible burden of poverty and misery. If the Government were wise, they would accept an Amendment such as this in order to make their Bill effective. The Bill is one for the establishment of a bureaucratic system. Anyone who wants a taste of what bureaucracy means, bureaucracy devoid of any controlling hand by public authorities, has only to take the action of the referees now acting in the courts of assessors for dealing with the unemployed. I could illustrate the position by what is going on in my own borough and the senseless questions being put to unemployed men—
§ The CHAIRMANThese, I think, are not officials of the county council at all.
§ Mr. WALLHEADI was going to say that officials are officials, whether of the central Government or of the county council. After all, the number of officials would be rather large and the area of supervision is being constricted. If the Committee desires to see some semblance of real, democratic control remaining, it 2673 will pass this Amendment. Unemployment is becoming a permanent feature of our social life. It shows no sign of diminution. As far as one can see, it has become what the Prime Minister said it might become, absolutely endemic, and this problem of unemployment is to be dealt with by these restricted committees, which are not elected at all, and in many cases the members will be drawn from the most reactionary section of the council.
§ The CHAIRMANCo-option itself will be dealt with later.
§ Mr. WALLHEADI have no doubt many of these things will be dealt with later. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] I do not know, and I do not care. It does not matter much when the Guillotine happens, because no questions will be adequately discussed. I have great pleasure in supporting the Amendment.
§ Sir PHILIP PILDITCHThe last three speakers seemed to me to be under a misapprehension. Does anyone imagine there is going to be a real personal touch between the committees with which we are now dealing and the individual?
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThese committees we are now discussing employ the relieving officers.
§ Sir P. PILDITCHAs a matter of fact, we know perfectly well that what is to be done by this committee is to have regard to the general question of principle, and that the actual details and the working out of the relations between these bodies will be discussed later. I hope we shall get help from the hon. Gentleman the Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) in order that the provisions of this Bill will be made really effective. What is wanted in regard to these committees is that the best men and women shall be appointed to them; not so much, possibly, that every district should send its own representatives, for this would be a very undesirable way of dealing with the representations of a central committee such as this. It is very important that we should have the best individuals capable of looking at things in a broad spirit. We are not at present dealing with the question of local guardians committees, a fact which seems to be entirely forgotten by the last three 2674 hon. Gentlemen who have addressed the committee. That will arise when we come to Clause 6. I hope the Government will stick to their intentions in regard to the present Clause.
§ Mr. RENNIE SMITHI think the hon. Gentleman the Member for Spelthorne (Sir P. Pilditch) is under a misapprehension. He will find that when we come to deal with Clause 6, we shall have a good deal to say about it. I would remind him that it is of the very greatest importance that every part of a county area should have some direct access to this proposed public assistance committee, because that committee will have very great powers of control over the guardians committee, about which, apparently, he is so anxious. I am afraid that the Parliamentary Secretary, like his chief, does not at all appreciate the distinction there is between a county area and big cities like London and Birmingham. I should not have risen at this stage except that I desire to emphasise that point of view. I have discussed this matter with a considerable number of guardians belonging to all political parties in the West Riding of Yorkshire. I found a great deal of disparity of opinion amongst them in regard to the Clauses of this Bill, hut there was none with regard to this particular point. They want to have some real assurance that they are going to have direct influence on the public assistance committee, that they are going to have some direct representation on the smaller guardians committees, and some guarantee that these committee will come down to the personal lives of the districts. It is not enough for the Parliamentary Secretary to glide off with a magnificent theory of democracy, as he attempted to do. I appreciate his very high conception of democracy, but it is not enough to say that this particular reform will be unworkable. We are asking that in some way or other relatively large areas in a county should be assured of direct access to this important committee. We are faced with a really serious problem, and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he cannot see his way to defer the matter for further consideration, in order to see that in the county areas we shall have some guarantee of direct representation when these bodies are set up.
§ Mr. HASLAMThe hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Rennie Smith) has modified the demand of the three earlier speakers who moved and supported this Amendment from direct representation to access to the public assistance committee of the county council. I should have thought that under the Bill as at present drafted access is granted, because the sub-committees of the public assistance committee which are to be called the guardians committees will have direct access to that committee. In regard to the point about this being undemocratic, the public assistance committee is to be set up by the county council which is a democratically elected body, and every district, no doubt, will be duly and properly represented.
§ Mr. RENNIE SMITH rose—
§ The CHAIRMANI am afraid that two hon. Members cannot remain standing at once.
§ Mr. HASLAMI am afraid that I did not quite catch the hon. Member's later point, but I maintain that the right of access is granted.
§ Mr. RENNIE SMITHThe hon. Member must have misunderstood me. I am asking for access on the part of county districts of a county council. I am not using an argument against representation; on the contrary, I am prepared to support it. The hon. Member says that he has no doubt that the county council will concede considerable representation to all parts of the county. I am asking that this shall be guaranteed by the Minister.
§ Mr. HASLAMAs I understand the position the hon. Member's further point is covered by the county council being a democratically elected body. If the local sub-committees of the public assistance committee can be made so as to represent all the local areas, and can be brought right into touch with the various villages and recipients of Poor Law relief, that will effect the object of the hon. Member and that of the hon. Members who spoke previously far more effectively than by the adoption of the present Amendment. The right way to bring the village districts into touch with the committees is by amendment of Clause 6.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSIt was interesting to listen to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Horncastle (Mr. Haslam). I rather deprecate the point which he made, particularly in view of the fact that the hon. Gentleman has his name to an Amendment which attempts to give representation on the Committee to each rural and urban district area.
§ Mr. HASLAMThat has to do with the guardians' committee.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSI would like to ask the hon. Gentleman if he would be good enough to tell us what is the difference between direct representation of an existing guardians area on the public assistance committee, and seeking representation for local governing bodies in particular areas?
§ Mr. HASLAMSince the hon. Member has asked me, I will willingly endeavour to answer him. The difference is that it is not necessary that the direct touch which hon. Members want should subsist between the public assistance committee in the county town and the village districts. What is required is that the direct touch should be between the guardians committee and the village districts. That is in conformity with the general working of the Measure as I understand it.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSAfter all, the line which the hon. Member tries to draw is a very thin one. The obvious conclusion is that he is not satisfied with the suggested constitution of the public assistance committee, and I think that he ought to be the last Member in this Committee to rise in his place and suggest that there is no ground for the present Amendment. The point I should like to make is this: Would the right hon. Gentleman suggest that the present representation of our county councils has any semblance of democracy? Would the right hon. Gentleman suggest that when this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament the county council areas will really be representative of our various counties? I know that the right hon. Gentleman, whatever his friends may say, who knew nothing whatever at all about it, will be the last to suggest that the present county council representation is what it ought to be. The right hon. Gentleman himself and his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health have 2677 already undertaken at the first opportunity to introduce another Bill which will give to urban district councils, and to rural district councils probably, a far greater representation on the county councils than they have to-day. That being the case, at least the right hon. Gentleman himself would not dare to suggest that county councils are really as representative as they ought to be. There is one other point which I should like to submit, namely, that the more work you impose upon county councils while no payment is made to the representatives—
§ The CHAIRMANThat has nothing to do with the Amendment.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSI have no desire to transgress your ruling, Mr. Hope. The point I wanted to make is that the more work you impose upon a few men or a few women, the fewer attendances you will obtain. This means, of course, that the business will largely be left in the hands of a comparatively small number of people, and that small number of people will be that section of the community who can afford to attend these meetings because they never lose work and never lose wages, since they never work at all. It is fairly obvious that these committees are going to resolve themselves into the most undemocratic committees that can possibly be conceived. If for no other reason, I am disposed to support this Amendment. To the West Riding area this Amendment would mean a large number of representatives, because it covers a very large area. In submitting the argument that a small number is better than a large number of people for this purpose, the right hon. Gentleman must have had behind his mind what we have feared for so long in this House, namely, that they want to deprive the worker-representative of any opportunity of serving on these public assistance committees. For that reason, these committees are going to be much more undemocratic than are the properly constituted bodies we have to-day. I think that the Committee ought to support this Amendment and ought to insist upon more instead of less democracy in our local government.
§ Sir REGINALD MITCHELL BANKSThe hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), if I may say so with respect, makes the mistake not uncommonly made by Members of his party. He defines democracy not by having regard to the system but by having regard to results. The democratic system should surely see to it that authority, local or national, is chosen by the voice of the people, but what hon. Members opposite appear to think is that democracy is not democracy when it results in Conservative representation, which is very frequent.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) was getting rather wide of the discussion, and the hon. and learned Gentleman seems to be getting still wider.
§ 6.0 p.m.
§ Sir R. BANKSIt is the complaint that if you entrust these functions to county councils as they are without further direct representation, you will be putting these important matters into the hands of a body which is not democratic. I was venturing to traverse the reasons given by the hon. Member for saying that the county councils were not democratic. It seems to me a little difficult to explain this passion for democracy in connection with guardians, when we find that only 10 per cent. of the voters take the trouble to intervene in elections. Surely, if we are going to transfer to the county councils duties which in fact affect so nearly the inhabitants of these rural and county districts, it is to be hoped that the voters of those districts, knowing what the new functions of the county councils are going to be, will take a greater interest in the elections and that there will be a larger popular vote.
The question which the hon. Member put to the Committee was as to the difference between the Amendment of my hon. Friend and the Amendment which we are now discussing. My hon. Friend's Amendment suggests that the area covered by the guardians' committees should be represented upon the public assistance committee, while the Amendment now under discussion is that the rural and urban districts should be directly represented upon the public 2679 assistance committee. [Interruption.] Well, that each district should be represented upon the public assistance committee. Obviously, it will be the case that the boundaries of the guardians' committee area will not coincide with the boundaries of districts. The reason for that is that the boundaries of districts at the present time are anomalous and lead to lack of efficiency, and that is one very good reason for the suggestion of distribution of areas within the county, to secure that the system of representation which at the present time is quite inequitable and chaotic should be abandoned for a more scientific system of representation, under which an individual in any given district will he able to go to the guardians' committee and there make his complaint about, say, the conduct of the relieving officer, or the amount of relief which he is receiving. These functions are to be transferred to the local guardians' committees, who would be his advocates upon the public assistance committee and it is not to be supposed that their views will not be hearkened to.
§ Mr. E. BROWNI am surprised at the attitude adopted by the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Sir R. Banks). I thought the hon. and learned Member was coming to our assistance.
§ Sir R. BANKSI shall do so on Clause 6.
§ Mr. BROWNWe are not now discussing Clause 6; we are discussing Clause 5. Why did I expect the hon. and learned Member's support? He represents Swindon Swindon is a non-county borough. What will happen there? Swindon will lose its direct representation upon the Cricklade Board of Guardians, of which it is a part, if I remember rightly, and it will only have a small voice in the direction of the public assistance committee appointed by the Wiltshire. County Council, sitting at Trowbridge. I am sure that the hon. and learned Member's electors at Swindon will not feel very happy if they are told by him that all the direct redress they are going to get at Trowbridge is through, perhaps, one member from the Swindon and Highworth area on the county council sub-committee, without power to redress their grievances by vote.
2680 The hon. and learned Member seems to overlook the fact that some of the major functions to be performed under this new committee do not refer to the mere receipt of money relief. The mere receipt of money relief is not one of the things that concerns the poor people most directly, but it is the administration of the institutions, the treatment and removal of the sick from their small village or town to an institution. At the moment, if there is an institution near the area of the board of guardians in a rural part, the poor people have this assurance that, since they have their own directly elected representatives on the local board of guardians, their friends and relatives will be taken to the nearest institution, when they are in need of treatment, so that they can visit them on a Sunday, at very small expense. Under the system now proposed in a county area, they have no such assurance and they will have very little direct assistance from the public assistance committee.
We are not asking for an enlarged public assistance committee, but we ask that when the county council appoints its public assistance committee, either two-thirds out of its own elected membership or one-third out of co-opted members, it should have regard to the needs of every area inside the county. Just as I think that the Amendment of hon. Members opposite on Clause 6 is reasonable, and I propose to support it, I think that in return the hon. and learned Member, especially in the interests of Swindon, should support us in this Amendment, because the proposed committee, although small in numbers, will be the real major committee for the direction of Poor Law functions.
§ Mr. R. HUDSONThe hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) painted a very terrible picture of an unfortunate man or woman having to go many miles under this scheme to an institution instead of being taken to the nearest institution. Let me point out that in return for going these miles he will gain very direct benefits.
§ Mr. HUDSONAt the present time, if he is taken to the nearest institution—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain Bourne)I cannot see how this Clause deals with institutions; it deals with committees.
§ Mr. LANSBURYHad a previous Amendment been accepted we should probably have taken a very different attitude on this Amendment. Our action is necessary because the right hon. Gentleman will persist in keeping in his Bill the old idea of destitution authorities. If we are to maintain the administration of the Poor Law on anything like its present lines it is necessary to have what is called local knowledge, and what is called the human touch, whatever that means. If the Parliamentary Secretary and his chief, the Minister of Health, had accepted our propositions in the Minority Report and had really broken up the Poor Law services, then the person who was sick, for instance, would have been dealt with in the ordinary natural manner that a sick person who is sick from an infectious disease is dealt with. All this talk about the human touch is only necessary because we deal with people from the point of view of whether they are sick enough that they may possibly die if they are not attended to. If a person is suffering from small-pox we do not worry about the human touch or about destitution; we take that person to an institution, there and then. We have the power to do that and we have the power to see that all the contacts are isolated and maintained, so that there can be no spread of the disease.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThis argument does not seem to me to be relevant to the Amendment, or the Clause. The question is whether each district should be represented on the Public Assistance Committee, and I must ask the hon. Member to keep to that point.
§ Mr. LANSBURYI would point out, with very great respect, that during the whole of the time you have been absent from the Chair the whole argument has been that the reason for the need of these Committees was to preserve the human touch with the individual persons applying for relief. That has been the main reason advanced for the Amendment before the Committee, and although I wish to obey your ruling I would point 2682 out that in Committee or in the House we are allowed to reply to the arguments of one another. I wish to emphasise very strongly that there would have been no need for this Amendment had the machinery which is being set up to deal with sickness been along the lines which I have described. The necessity for the Committee being elected in this manner is also to be found in the fact that the central committee will decide who are to be the relieving officers, what is to be the scale of public assistance and what is to be the kind of treatment which the poor people are to receive. As this is, to be within the four corners of the Poor Law, it is essential that local opinion should have full force on the central committee. Although I agree that the committee in Glamorgan or the West Riding will be very large, that is not our fault but the fault of the Minister in trying to ride two horses at one time. He is trying to reform the Poor Law, to carry out. certain recommendations of certain Committees and Commissions, and at the same time he is trying to preserve the old, wicked, inequalities and vices of Poor Law administration. For that reason, we shall go into the Lobby in support of the Amendment.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODI am astonished at the attitude of the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Sir R. Banks) and the hon. member for Horn-castle (Mr. Haslam). I can understand from their point of view that they know that this Bill is unpopular, and they seek to protect themselves in their constituencies by putting down an Amendment precisely similar to the Amendment now before the House. The hon. and learned Member for Swindon, with his legal acumen, makes some profound distinction between this Amendment and the other. According to the Clause, the county is to be divided into areas and each area is to consist of one or more districts.
§ Sir R. BANKSThat is exactly the point. The boundaries of these areas may not be and probably will not be the same as the district boundaries which the hon. Member who moved the Amendment now before the House has in view.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThe district boundaries spoken of are the district boundaries of urban and rural districts. 2683 The new areas are to consist of one urban district or one rural district or of two districts added together.
§ Sir R. BANKSOr more.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThe boundaries will be precisely the same.
§ Sir R. BANKSCannot the hon. and gallant Member see a distinction between saying that each Member of the House can sit as a representative upon a certain committee, and that groups consisting of one or more Members of this House can sit as representatives en a committee? If he cannot see that there is a distinction, then I cannot see that he appreciates the force of language.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThe hon. and learned Member presumes on the forgetfulness of this House. He presumes that the boundaries will be different because districts may be added together. Take the case where there is one district and not two added together. That, I hope, will be the normal procedure, because the whole trend of opinion is in favour of smaller units. In that case, the Amendments are precisely the same and we ought to have the support of hon. Members opposite. I appeal to the hon. and learned Member to use his logical capacity and his legal capacity in dealing with these matters. With regard to the question of democracy, the smaller the unit the more influence has democracy' upon their own Government. Democracy is not a question of the people voting, but it is a question of how far the people themselves control, and the smaller the unit the greater the democracy. I apologise for entering into an explanation of this point, but it is necessary when we talk so loosely about democracy. The nearer we get down to the smaller unit, the more real is the democracy.
§ Sir R. BANKSWhere the guardians committee area is one district, I agree that in that case, and in that case alone, the Amendment now before the Committee coincides with the Amendment put down by some hon. Members on these benches, but that is not going to be so in every case. Where you have too many districts or where the district boundaries are badly arranged, then the 2684 areas will be different and that makes a great difference between the two propositions.
§ Sir HENRY SLESSERAt any rate the Committee may draw this conclusion from the disquisition which has been going on between the legal hon. Member and the non-legal hon. Member—the hon. and learned Gentleman below the Gangway is at least dissatisfied with the Bill as it stands. The simple question is this. The hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Sir R. Banks) says that if certain districts are adopted which he would like to see adopted then he agrees that the central committee should be constituted with representatives from the guardians' districts. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment adopted as his basis rural and urban districts as they exist. Surely there is a great measure of agreement between the two, inasmuch as both of them really disagree with the Government which, after all, is the substantive point with which they are concerned. That is to say, on the essential question as to whether the central committee should be composed of representatives of districts the hon. and learned Member for Swindon and the hon. Member who moved the Amendment are agreed that the central committee should be made out of the districts. The only question between them is the size of these districts. The hon. and learned Member for Swindon says that hon. Members on this side judge democracy by its results. He did exactly the same thing himself because he says that guardians are an unsuitable authority—look how many, how few, people vote for them. If hon. Members opposite are right then it does not matter what opinions are given or how many people vote; it is all democracy. I agree with the views which have been expressed that we cannot have too much direct and immediate representation of the persons affected in these matters.
The question of the urban districts has not been mentioned. In my view urban districts present more serious problems than rural areas. In the past the urban district has had its board of guardians. In rural districts the board of guardians although technically a different body from the rural district council, is, in fact, substantially the same. One would have thought it right and proper that an urban district, self-contained for Poor Law pur- 2685 poses, should be the authority for administration. If the county is to be the authority, absorbing the urban districts, then surely there is a case for direct representation on the part of urban districts. Take Lancashire with a dense population and wealthy districts. These districts will lose their authorities under this Bill and the whole administration will be carried on in the county town of Preston, which is in a comparatively rural part of the county. Can anything more remote from democracy be conceived than that a town like Preston in the rural part of Lan-
§ cashire, with a rural point of view, should have vested in it the Poor Law administration for all the urban and industrial parts of the county? All we ask is that these urban areas in Lancashire shall have direct representation. Although I agree that the rural question is important there is a strong argument to be made from the urban point of view as well.
§ Question put "That those words be there inserted?"
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 125; Noes, 218.
2687| Division No. 72.] | AYES. | [6.22 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Runclman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hardle, George D. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Harney, E. A. | Scurr, John |
| Baker, Walter | Harris, Percy A. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Barnes, A. | Hirst, G. H. | Shinwell, E. |
| Barr, J. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Siton, Charles H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bellamy, A | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Briant, Frank | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) | Strauss, E. A. |
| Broad, F. A. | Kelly, W. T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Bromfield, William | Kennedy, T. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Lansbury, George | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Lawrence, Susan | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lawson, John James | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lee, F. | Townend, A. E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lindley, F. W. | Viant, S. P. |
| Connolly, M. | Livinqstone, A. M. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Cove, W. G. | Lowth, T. | Walsh, Rt. Hon Stephen |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lunn, William | Warne, G. H. |
| Dalton, Hugh | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Mackinder, W. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | MacLaren, Andrew | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Day, Harry | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Dennison, R. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Dunnico, H. | March, S. | Westwood, J |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Maxton, James | Whiteley, W. |
| Edwards. J. Hugh (Accrington) | Montague, Frederick | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Walsh Univer.) | Morris, R. H. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Forrest, W. | Morrison. R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Williams, Dr. J H. (Lianelly) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Naylor, T. E. | Williams, T. (York. Don Valley) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Gillett, George M. | Paling, W. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Windsor, Walter |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wright, W. |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Ponsonby, Arthur | |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Potts, John S. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Grundy, T. W. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Sir Robert Hutchison and Major Owen. |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Ritson, J. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Bennett, A. J. | Brocklebank, C. E. R. |
| Albery, Irving James | Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman | Berry, Sir George | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Buchan, John |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Bird. E. R. (Yorks, W. R. Skipton) | Buckinqham, Sir H. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Boothby, R. J. G. | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James |
| Astor, Viscountess | Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Burton, Colonel H. W. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Campbell, E. T. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Brass, Captain W. | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) |
| Bainiel, Lord | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. |
| Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Briggs, J. Harold | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Alton) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Briscoe, Richard George | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Christie J. A. | Hills, Major John Waller | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hilton, Cecil | Preston, William |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Holt, Captain H. P. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Ramsden, E. |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Colfox, Major Win. Phillips | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Remer, J. R. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Hume, Sir G. H. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Hurd, Percy A. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | Hurst, Gerald B. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Iveagh, Countess of | Rye, F. G. |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Jones, Sir G. W, H. (Stoke New'gton) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Sandon, Lord |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sassoon, sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Knox, Sir Alfred | Savery, S. S. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philly | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Loder, J. de V. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Lougher, Lewis | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Herman | Smithers, Waldron |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Streatfelld, Captain S. R. |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Margesson, Captain D. | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Ganzonl, Sir John | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Gales, Percy | Monsell, Fyres. Com. Rt. Hon. B. M | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Gilmour, Lt Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Givn, Major R. G. C. | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kinqston-on-Hull) |
| Goff, Sir Park | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Nelson, Sir Frank | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Newman, Sir R. H. S D. L. (Exeter) | Wells, S. R. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple |
| Hacking, Douglas H. | Nicholson, O (Westminster) | Williams, A. M (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Withers, John James |
| Hanbury, C. | Nuttall, Ellis | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Oakley, T. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Harland, A. | Pennefather, Sir John | Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Penny, Frederick George | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Wright, Brig.-General W. D. |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Pilcher, G. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Pilditch, Sir Philip | Major The Marquess of Titchfield and Captain Wallace. |
§ Mr. BRIANTI beg to move, in page 4, line 39, after the word "committee," to insert the words:
nominated as far as possible from among those members of the council who have experience in the administration of the Poor Law.This proposal is not very extensive in its operation. If it is accepted it will make it obligatory on the assistance committee to co-opt from those people who have already had some knowledge of the administration of Poor Law affairs. I 2688 think it is desirable that this House should indicate- that where possible those who have already had experience of this work should be elected to serve on these committees. It is only those who have never done this kind of work who think that anybody can do it. As a matter of fact, it is work which requires a good deal of knowledge of human nature, and while the administration must be efficient it must also be humane. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept the Amendment.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip)The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment described it as harmless, which appeared to show that he has not very much hope that it will be accepted. I cannot imagine that a Member of the Liberal Opposition would move an Amendment to a Government Bill unless it was intended to do some harm. The hon. Member has anticipated that an Amendment so ambiguous in its phraseology could not possibly be put into the Bill. The words "as far as possible" appear to indicate some difficulty in stating exactly what the county council ought to do. Are they to offer a position to everyone who may be supposed to have had experience in the administration of the Poor Law? What is experience of the Poor Law? Does it mean that the persons concerned are to be members of a board of guardians, or does it mean that they have had connection with societies which are interested in the administration of the Poor Law? We appreciate the hon. Member's intention, and probably a county council would pay some regard to the experience of the persons whom they put on the assistance committees, but to put into the Bill a direction of this character, though perhaps harmless, would be useless as well as harmless.
§ Mr. E. BROWNI am surprised at the reply of the learned Attorney-General. The answer to his two questions is "Both." There are some county councils with very few members who have been on boards of guardians, but they have members who have had administrative experience in connection with societies which take a great interest in the operation of various sections of the Poor Law. We desire that when a committee is formed, the county council shall have regard to those of its members who have had experience of the Poor Law. I have here a statement showing how detailed and various are the duties involved. If any hon. Member who has not had experience of guardians' work would study a chart of this kind, which gives a fortnight's scheme of work, he would understand why those of us who take an interest in Poor Law work are keen that this committee should consist as far as possible of men and women who have had experience of Poor Law administration in one way or another.
§ Sir H. SLESSERWe find ourselves in some difficulty with regard to this Amendment. We are to propose later the abolition of paragraph (1, a) of this Clause, and that proposal would have the effect of doing away with co-opted members altogether. We find ourselves in the difficulty that we are now asked either to accept or to reject a proposal that certain persons of a particular class shall be co-opted. The view of Members of the Labour party is that they do not want any persons co-opted at all. In these circumstances I think that we cannot give support to this Amendment. At any rate we must reserve our freedom to oppose resolutely any proposal to nominate anyone on a body that is not entirely democratically elected.
§ Mr. CRAWFURDThere are two points I want to mention. One is in answer to the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken. I do not, understand his difficulty. We shall support the later Amendment to cut out all co-opted members, but if, as may conceivably happen, that Amendment should be defeated, we shall, in the Amendment that we are moving now, have endeavoured to safeguard certain things. Indeed we are asking the Minister to accept an Amendment that is all in the spirit of his own Bill. In reply to the learned Attorney-General I would say that when this Bill was first brought forward, his colleague the Minister of Health specifically asked for constructive criticism and assistance. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that he did not think an hon. Member on the Liberal benches would move an Amendment unless it was likely to be harmful, but no one who knows my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. Briant) would suggest that he would do anything but his best to make this a workable Measure.
§ Mr. HARRISThe learned Attorney-General was very patronising to my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. Briant), who has an immense knowledge, spread over a great number of years, of Poor Law administration. Apparently the learned Attorney-General thought that his position gave him a right to suggest that the Amendment was without precedent. There are precedents.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI did not say anything about its being without pre- 2691 cedent. I simply took up what the hon. Member said in introducing his Amendment, which he dammed with faint praise by saying that it was harmless.
§ Mr. HARRISI am glad to know that the hon. and learned Gentleman admits that there is a precedent. The precedent is in the case of the Education Act. It provided specifically that the aldermen to be appointed should have a knowledge of education. Anyone who has knowledge of the administration of education knows that when it comes to the question of aldermen to serve on the education committee, great care is taken to see that they have had some educational experience. We want the same care to be taken in these appointments. We do not want the appointments to be made for
§ party or political purposes. At any rate, on the first occasion, we want persons to be elected who have had administrative experience of this particularly delicate work. I have known occasions when school managers were being appointed, when experience and knowledge were ignored and only party considerations were taken into account. In many cases in London I have seen experienced people swept away from school management for mere party reasons. That is the sort IDA thing we want to avoid. We wish to see the Poor Law administered by the most sympathetic and competent people.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 124; Noes, 227.
2693| Division No. 73.] | AYES. | [6.41 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Harney, E. A. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Amman, Charles George | Harris, Percy A. | Scurr, John |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley] | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Baker, Walter | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hirst, G. H. | Shinwell, E. |
| Barnes, A. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Barr, J. | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, Rennle (Penlstone) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bellamy, A. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Strauss, E. A. |
| Briant, Frank | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) | Sullivan, J. |
| Broad, F. A. | Kelly, W. T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Bromfield, William | Kennedy, T. | Thorne, W. (West Ham Pialstow) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Lansbury, George | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Lawrence, Susan | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lawson, John James | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lee, F. | Townend, A. E. |
| Connolly, M. | Llndley, F. W. | Viant, S. P. |
| Cove, W. G. | Livingstone, A. M. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Longbottom, A. W. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lowth, T. | Warne, G. H. |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Lunn, William | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Day, Harry | Mackinder, W. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Dennison, R. | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Dunnico, H. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | March, S. | Westwood, J. |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Maxton, James | Whiteley, W. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Montague, Frederick | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Forrest, W. | Morris, R. H. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Glbbins, Joseph | Naylor, T. E. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gillett, George M | Oliver, George Harold | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Paling, W. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Windsor, Walter |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wright, W. |
| Grundy, T. W. | Potts, John S. | |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Richardson, R (Houghton-le-Spring) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Ritson, J. | Sir Robert Hutchison and Major Owen. |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) | |
| Hardle, George D. | Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyto, Lieut.-Colonel | Astor, Viscountess | Bennett, A. J. |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Atkinson, C. | Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- |
| Albery, Irving James | Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Berry, Sir George |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman | Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Birchall, Major J. Dearman |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Balniel, Lard | Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Boothby, R. J. G. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Hanbury, C. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Brass, Captain W. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Harland, A. | Pitcher, G. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Harrison, G. J. C. | Pildltch, Sir Philip |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hartington, Marquess of | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Brockiebank, C. E. R. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Haslam, Henry C. | Preston, William |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Buchan, John | Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Ramsden, E. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Remer, J. R. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hills, Major John Waller | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hilton, Cecil | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hohler, Sir Gerald Fltzroy | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Cayzer Sir C. (Chester, City) | Holt, Capt. H. P. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Ropner, Major L. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Home, Rt. Hen. Sir Robert S. | Rye, F. G. |
| Christie, J. A. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hume, Sir G. H. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hurd, Percy A. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hurst, Gerald B. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunei | Inskip, sir Thomas Walker H. | Sandon, Lord |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Iveagh, Countess of | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Savery, S. S. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Crott, Brigadler-General Sir H. | Knox, Sir Alfred | Smithers, Waldron |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Loder, J. de V. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Lougher, Lewis | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Macmillan, Captain H. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Tinne, J. A. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Margesson, Captain D. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Milne. J. S. Wardlaw | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Faile, Sir Bertram G. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Warner, Brigadier-General w. w. |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Wells, S. R. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Ganzonl, Sir John | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Gates, Percy | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Withers, John James |
| Gauit, Lieut. Col. Andrew Hamilton | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C | Nicholson. Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Nuttall, Ellis | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Oakley, T. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Grentell, Edward C. (City of London) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Pennefather, Sir John | Wright, Brig.-General W. D. |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Penny, Frederick George | |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hacking, Douglas H. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Wallace. |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Perring, Sir William George |
§ Mr. HARRISI beg to move, in page 4, line 40, to leave out the word "may" and, to insert instead thereof the word "shall."
I move this Amendment in order to secure not only that women "may" be on these committees, but that they "shall" be on these committees; and I hope to get a satisfactory assurance from 2694 the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary on that point. The Attorney-General, as a lawyer, is possibly more influenced by precedent than by argument, and I would point out to him that there are many precedents for this proposal, the best of which is the case of the education committees on which, at present, there must be a certain percentage of women.
§ Sir K. WOODOn a point of Order. I do not think the hon. Member appreciates the effect of this Amendment. It would be to make co-option compulsory. This proposal does not deal with the point of making it compulsory that there should be so many women on the public assistance committees. I do not know if the hon. Member is prepared to proceed with his Amendment and to take the consequences of co-option being made compulsory.
§ Mr. HARRISI have made perfectly clear my only reason for moving the Amendment and I do not intend to press it to a Division. But we are most anxious, if we are to have these co-opted committees, that there should be women on them, because on the county councils and borough councils at present there are very few women, whereas on the guardians there is a very large percentage of women.
§ Mr. E. BROWNI beg to support the Amendment.
§ Sir K. WOODI do not quite know how I am to approach this matter. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) has just moved an Amendment which makes co-option compulsory, but his speech did not deal with that point at all. Either he means to make co-option compulsory and take the consequences of it, or else he has some other idea in mind. If he wishes to deal with co-option I suggest we had better proceed to a later Amendment which raises that question and on which we can deal with it generally. If the hon. Member wishes to move an Amendment making it compulsory that women should be members of the public assistance committees, he ought to do so in another form.
§ Mr. BROWNI quite agree, but the right hon. Gentleman must realise that the difficulties experienced in this connection are not our difficulties alone. He will see on the Paper that the names of the hon. and learned Member for Preston (Mr. A. R. Kennedy) and the hon. and learned Member for Moss Side (Mr. G. Hurst) are down to this Amendment. They are hon. Members on his own side, who are learned in the law, and they agree with this Amendment, not, I presume, because they think that co-option should be imperative, but 2696 because they have found it very difficult, as we have, to raise in any other way the direct issue of whether or not women should be co-opted.
§ Sir K. WOODIt is quite easy to propose that in choosing the public assistance committee the council shall choose a certain number of women.
§ Mr. BROWNI am glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say it is perfectly easy. We have not found it so easy. May I take it, however, that the right hon. Gentleman's advice as to the ease of drafting such an Amendment is an indication of sympathy with the aim which we have in view. If not, we may have to change our views about pressing the Amendment. We are not in favour of co-option, and we propose to vote against it later on in toto, but we have found it difficult to devise Amendments inside the terms of the Bill—and remember it was the right hon. Gentleman and his friends who drafted the Bill—to ensure that if there are to be co-opted committees, then a proportion of the members of such committees should be women. Women on county and borough councils only number 335, whereas there are 2,300 on the boards of guardians, and in view of those proportions we fear that there may not be a fair representation of women on these proposed committees.
§ Mr. GERALD HURSTI was surprised to find a considerable number of Members of the Liberal party putting down their names in support of the proposal to make co-option essential in this administrative scheme. I may congratulate them on their good sense in doing so, because anybody who realises the size of the county councils and county borough councils, and their composition, must come to the conclusion that it is most desirable that in every case there should be co-opted members. It is absolutely impossible, in my submission, to run an administrative scheme of this kind properly unless you add co-opted members to the existing personnel. There are two reasons for this. The first is that the numbers on the ordinary county councils and the ordinary county borough councils are quite insufficient to deal with the enormous number of new duties to be discharged under the Bill. Secondly, a very large number of the existing members 2697 have not the time and have not had the training which would enable them to perform these new duties as efficiently as co-opted members. One of the inducements for supporting this part of the Bill is the idea that persons who have had practical training as guardians should be brought inside the bodies who are going to administer Poor Law relief.
It is idle to say that that is not democratic. Who cares whether it is democratic or not? The important thing is to get as efficient a service as possible for the good of the poor, and the good of the people generally in the district. Whether the members of these bodies are elected directly or indirectly is of no consequence whatever. I agree with hon. Members opposite as to the importance of adding women to the committees. It has been pointed out that in the existing county councils and county borough councils there Are only 335 women as against some 2,300 on the boards of guardians. The services of those women affil be lost to the administration of the Poor Law unless co-option is compulsory. For those reasons I think the Liberal idea, for once, is sound, and I support the Amendment.
§ Mr. A. R. KENNEDYI have not the difficulty which has been expressed by hon. Members on the other side in regard to this Amendment. I originally put down the Amendment in these terms, in order, directly to raise this question of compulsory co-option, and I am entirely in favour of it for the purposes of this Clause. I shall not repeat the arguments which have been used by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Moss Side (Mr. G. Hurst), but I would point out that precisely the same question arose during the discussions on the Education Act of 1902, when it was proposed in face of great opposition to abolish the school boards. That Act provided that co-option to the education committees of local authorities should be compulsory. I do not know, because I have not had sufficient experience, but I am inclined to believe that co-option on education committees has been satisfactory. [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!"] I am encouraged by that applause to believe that it has been thoroughly satisfactory, and I know in my own constituency to-day, the education committee includes 2698 some eminent people who have devoted themselves very largely to the work of education to the manifest advantage of the city. To-day, the chairman of that committee is a very eminent gentleman in the city of Preston who is unable to be a member of the council, but who has given his services gratuitously and with great effect on the education committee.
When one remembers the immense amount of work which is to be thrown on these authorities, by the transfer of the Poor Law, it seems to be a great mistake not to take advantage, in every way we can, of the experience of those who have been engaged in Poor Law administration. It is manifest that many of such persons will not find their way on to the councils. They cannot do so. The numbers are against them, and I would support any proposition which would enable those persons to assist the county and the poor by their presence as co-opted members on the local committees and the benefit of their experience. Furthermore, in a county borough such as that which I have the honour to represent, we may have to face a situation of this kind. It may be—I do not not say it, is likely—that in a county borough there may be no sub-committees of the public assistance committees. In the Bill there is a provision that the public assistance committee of the county borough "may" appoint sub-committees; but it may also carry out the work without doing so. If that should happen in any case there will be no members associated with the work of Poor Law administration in such a county borough who have been guardians, unless they also happen to be councillors. That is a contingency which one would not face with equanimity, and I am sure the Minister does not want to face it.
7.0 p.m.
My principal reason, however, for supporting this proposal to make co-option compulsory is the interests of those concerned in the Poor Law. I cannot believe that any disadvantage accrues from associating with this great work those who have had experience in it and those who are anxious to have that experience. In these days county councillors and borough councillors have many and diverse interests. In Preston, alone—by no means an unusual example—there are some 48 aldermen and councillors. There are sixteen standing 2699 committees and many sub-committees You are transferring to that body an important branch of work which is new to many of the members, and nothing but advantage will accrue from the addition to the public assistance committee of men and women who are experienced in the work and who desire to take it up, it may be to the exclusion of other forms of public work. Lastly, may I acid this consideration, that it is more easy to convert "may" into "shall" now than to do the same later on. The present moment is the opportunity to secure that which the Minister desires. From the opposition in some places it is clear that there it may be difficult to secure the co-option which is desired. The opportunity should he taken now because, if it is not done now it may never be done.
§ Sir JOHN MARRIOTTLike the hon. Member, I represent a county borough and, I need hardly say, an exceedingly important one. I desire to support the Amendment, because it seems to me a matter of supreme importance that in county boroughs the committee which is to he set up should, as a matter of fact and as a matter of course, retain the services of those who had already been associated with the administration of the Poor Law. We have in the city to which I refer a most admirable board of guardians who have done their work to the general satisfaction, and I should regard it as nothing less than a calamity, in the interests of the poor people of York, if their services were not to be retained on any committee that is to be set up.
§ Major HILLSI venture to remind the Committee what exactly is the point on which we shall vote in a few minutes. It is not whether it is right that those who are connected with the Poor Law should continue their connection; it is not whether county or borough councils are overworked; the question is whether we ought to coerce our county and borough councils and make them, whether they will or no, co-opt persons on to the public assistance committee. I listened to the last speech with a good deal of surprise. I suppose my hon. Friend represents the Corporation of York. Do they want to be coerced into this?
§ Sir J. MARRIOTTI represent the City of York, not the Corporation of York.
§ Major HILLSHere we have a very interesting situation if the Corporation of York, which is elected by the electorate of York, does not represent the City of York.
§ Sir J. MARRIOTTThat is an inference which the hon. and learned Member is not entitled to draw.
§ Major HILLSI did not draw the distinction between the Corporation and the City of York; it was drawn by my hon. Friend. Surely, this Committee will not, without mature consideration, pass an Amendment which would compel great cities like York, Manchester and Liverpool and great county councils like Lancashire to co-opt persons on to the public assistance committee whether they will or no. Seeing the immense powers you are giving them by this Bill, it would surely be a very strange thing if you do not leave them some discretion in the matter. I hope the Government will stand firm on this point, because I should regard it as a great blot on the Bill if this Amendment were carried.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODIt really does not much matter whether the Government stand firm or not, because if the Committee will read the Amendment carefully, they will see that it makes no earthly difference to the Bill. They will see that a council can evade the law by nominating to that committee one solitary person.
§ Mr. HARRISOn the understanding that the Minister will look into this matter, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. VIANTI beg to move, in page 4, line 41, to leave out paragraph (a).
This means that the whole paragraph will be deleted, but the Amendment is not moved with any intention of excluding women from representation on the committees. There is no better champion in the country of the women's cause than the party with which I am associated, but we desire to eliminate entirely the principles of co-option. This Committee will have to disburse large sums of money, and we hold very strongly and definitely that 2701 the principle of co-option is exceedingly dangerous when co-opted persons are members of an authority charged with responsibility of disbursing public funds. Upon those grounds, we take strong exception to this paragraph, and I hope the Minister will be prepared to appreciate the force of our argument that those who are responsible for disbursing public funds ought to be responsible to the electors for the powers they obtain.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSI beg to support the Amendment, and I do so because the principle of co-opting members to a body of this description is hopelessly reactionary and ought not to be accepted. I should like to refer to what I think was lurking in the Minister's mind when he conceived the idea of co-opting a certain number of Members to this committee. He told us on the Second Reading that there were a large number of people who were willing to render service but were unwilling to face a modern election. Probably he is correct, and there are a number of persons who are willing to render service on a public body in this way since they would not be responsible to anyone while performing an apparent public duty. In my opinion, that is entirely wrong. Another reason why the right hon. Gentleman has introduced this principle can be seen in the Circular which he issued in 1927 to boards of guardians throughout the country. He said there, referring to the amount of Poor Law relief in individual cases, that he viewed with apprehension the continuance of a system whereby the amount of relief given to each individual applicant should be dependent upon promises made by politicians during local election campaigns. That seems to be the real reason why, instead of ordinary elected members of the public assistance committee we are to have this work done in future by a body with as many of its representatives non-elected and in no way responsible to anybody for what they do or fail to do. That is a hopelessly reactionary principle which ought not to enter into legislation in 1928.
We are being told that the Conservative Government have extended the franchise to women and have made democracy perfect in this country. Yet at the very moment that democracy, so far as elec- 2702 toral power is concerned, has received its last extension the value of the vote is being reduced by the introduction of the principle of co-option. You are only going to give two-thirds of its value to a vote if in the election of a county councillor one-third of every vote cast for him is nullified by the principle of co-option. As to the representation of women, the Members of the Labour party are as anxious for a fair number of women to be on these local government bodies as any other party. Now that the vote has been extended to women of 21 on the same terms as men, there is no shadow of doubt that women will take their place upon these local government bodies, particularly in cases where women and children have to be cared for. From that point of view, the elimination of this paragraph dealing with co-option will in no way adversely affect the women serving upon these bodies. Women can and will in the days to come play their part and face an election. They will be prepared to meet all the opposition that may be forthcoming to whatever political party they belong. A test of the sincerity of those who serve on a local governing body ought to be their willingness to submit themselves for election and to render themselves responsible to the people who send them into office for their sins of either commission or omission during that term.
This new principle is not one that Members of this Committee ought to support. While it may be argued by the Minister that the present representation on our county councils is totally insufficient to perform all the multifarious duties that have fallen upon them, and that they must be augmented in some way, and while he may say that unless there is some supplementary number of men and women who are going to help in this work the county councils will find themselves in a position where they can no longer carry their full burden, we say that that is not a reason, but is merely an excuse. We say that suitable words could be provided whereby our urban and rural district councils could be given direct representation on these public assistance committees, and whereby the work could be shared out in such a way that you would have direct representatives serving on these most important committees and the responsibilities of the county council would be so distributed as to give the 2703 maximum satisfaction to the whole of the districts throughout the country.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINThe mover of the Amendment made it clear that he regarded it as a test of the general principle of co-option, and I am quite willing that we should take the sense of the Committee upon that general principle as it is confined and restricted in the provisions of this Bill.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODSince they are nominated, they are nominated for life, and they are irremovable, according to your Bill.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINThat is another point altogether, on which I do not find any Amendment on the Paper. The hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) cited co-option as a new principle—
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSOn public assistance committees.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINI do not see any difference in principle between co-option on public assistance committees and co-option on any other committee of a council. I must say, in reference to the suspicions of the hon. Member as to what he thinks are lurking in the dark recesses of my mind, that I think he has let his suspicions run away with his common sense, because what are we proposing to do here? Are we proposing to co-opt members on the council itself? Not at all. We are proposing to co-opt members on a committee of a council only, and quite apart from the fact that we have secured that even on that committee there shall be a definite majority of the elected members of the council, the proceedings of the committee itself are, of course, subject to the council, which is an entirely elected body. It is quite a mistake to suggest, as was suggested by the mover of the Amendment, that by co-opting members on to the public assistance committee we are handing over to them the power to control the finances of the county as a whole. We are doing nothing of the kind. The council will only delegate to the public assistance committee certain functions, with any restrictions or conditions which they may think fit to impose, and, of course, the whole control of the finances of the council will still remain in the hands of the council itself and will not be affected in 2704 any way by the co-option of a few outside members on to an individual committee.
I attach considerable importance to the power which is given by this particular paragraph in the scheme to provide for the co-option of a certain number of members on this public assistance committee, and I do so for two reasons. First, there is what I may call the temporary reason, that we are going to transfer to a new body functions hitherto performed by boards of guardians. We want to take advantage, if we can, of the experience and of the knowledge of those who have been doing the work of guardians, but who are not now members of the council, and we can only do it by giving this power of co-option. That is the first and the temporary reason, but I look forward to a permanent co-option, in a different sense from that put by the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). I look forward to the presence of a permanent body, not of permanent individuals, but of a permanent number of co-opted members on this body. I think that if we can get some people to come in and help with the work, it will lighten the burden on the elected members, which, as we have heard from many quarters, is extremely heavy; but particularly I value the provision because it enables us to bring in a certain number of women into the administration of this work whom, I believe, otherwise we should fail to get.
After all, the participation of our women in the work of local government is the work of this House, but even now the number of women who are actually taking part in local administration is very small, and I am certain that there are a number of women who would he very glad to take part in work of this kind, work for which, it seems to me, they are peculiarly fitted, but who will not face what the hon. Member for the Don Valley calls the humdrum of an election. That is not in the least because they are afraid to answer to their constituents, but because they are shy and because they fear the publicity, but I would add this, that what I have found in my own experience not infrequently takes place is that a woman who has once been co-opted and begun to take up the work soon gets an interest in it, and 2705 finally becomes so interested in it that she is able to overcome her shyness and in process of time is ready to face even the humdrum of an election. I. believe that this is a channel by which we can ultimately get a larger proportion of women into the work of local administration, and for that reason alone I believe it is worthy of the support of this Committee.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODIs the right hon. Gentleman prepared to accept the Amendment next on the Paper, which we shall not have the opportunity of discussing, limiting the permanence of the appointment of these co-opted members on the public assistance committee?
§ Mr. RENNIE SMITHThe Minister raised the question of whether or not the principle of co-option was already in existence, but I think he misunderstood my hon. Friend the Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) on that point. My hon. Friend wanted to make it clear that that principle does not operate on boards of guardians, and we are now confronted with the proposal that a body which is much more removed from the life of the people should have the principle of co-option introduced into it. I think it is a long time since we had such a tender and wistful plea for women in public life put forward by a Tory as we had just now from the Minister of Health.
§ Mr. SMITHHalf an hour ago the right hon. Gentleman was talking about faith in democracy, and I want him to apply his principles on that point in this Amendment. I want him to consider the point of view of the National Executive Council of the Rural District Councils Association in regard to this Amendment. They say:
At the present time in rural areas practically every applicant is known to some guardian. Under the Government's proposal this will be impossible. The majority on all Poor Law committees is, according to the White Paper, to consist of county councillors, and their wider area will render it impossible for them to know the applicants personally, even if their other duties give them time to attend the committee meetings. The new co-opted members would probably at first be chosen from existing guardians, having the confidence of the electorate, but as vacancies occurred the county council would have no means of knowing the class of people whom the electors would have 2706 chosen to administer Poor Law relief, and the work would undoubtedly drift into the hand; of theorists and people entirely out of touch with the poor.This is the judgment of people who have been largely responsible for exactly the work that has to be done by this proposed new authority which is to be set up. I do not know what kind of ideas the rural district councils have as to who the theorists are, but it is perfectly clear, when they speak of people entirely out of touch with the poor, that they must be referring to the rich people. The poor are always in contact with the poor, and by the introduction here of the principle of co-option, I am afraid we are creating a system of the government of the poor by the rich. It is entirely from that point of view that we want to express, not only in general terms, but with regard to this particular application, our strongest opposition to the principle of co-option, particularly from the point of view of the rural county areas, where at the present time the county council is hopelessly overburdened with rich people. [Interruption.] They are the most unrepresentative bodies in the whole country, and yet we are giving to these bodies power to co-opt Lady Mary So-and-So and Lord John So-and-So to serve on them.If -Mere is one thing that is more important than another, it is that these well-to-do people, who have no real knowledge of the problem with which they have to deal, should be effectively reduced and not increased on these bodies. I submit that it is preposterous, when the Minister is diminishing the effective powers of democratic government by setting up these bodies, that at the same time he shout] be inserting this reactionary method of calling in non-democratic representatives to manage the lives of the poor people. If there is one thing that is nauseating in the rural areas, it is the domination which the well-to-do people have over the poor. If there is one thing that has ruined the Liberal party, if I may put it in that way, it is that after a century of development the whole of public life in the rural areas is so largely dominated by and in the hands of a relatively few well-to-do people. It is because of these reasons that we assert our strongest opposition to this reactionary principle 2707 of co-option which it is proposed to let in by the back door by this Clause. So far as the rural areas are concerned, we ought to seek, not to diminish interest in elections, but to increase it, and the only way to do that is to maximise the responsibility—
§ It being half-past Seven of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to
2708§ the Order of the House of 12th December, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 252: Noes, 132.
2709| Division No. 74.] | AYES. | [7.30 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col Charles | Davies. Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Albery, Irving James | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Iveagh, Countess of |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman | Dawson, Sir Philip | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Kennedy. A. R. (Preston) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Eden, Captain Anthony | Kindersley, Major G. M. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Astor, Viscountess | Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Atkinson, C. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Balniel, Lord | Everard, W, Lindsay | Loder, J. de V. |
| Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | fan tax, Captain J. G, | Lougher, Lewis |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Fade, Sir Bertram G. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Bennett, A. J. | Ford, Sir P. J. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Forestler-Walker, sir L. | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Berry, Sir George | Forrest, W. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Bevan, S. J. | Foster, Sir Harry s. | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Fraser, Captain Ian | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Gates, Percy | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Briscoe. Richard George | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Goff, Sir Park | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Grace, John | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saftron Walden) |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Grant, Sir J. A. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Bull. Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Grotrian H. Brent | Moreing, Captain A. H. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hacking, Douglas H. | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Cayzer Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hammersley, S. S. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Cazalet, Captain victor A. | Hanbury, C. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) | Harland, A. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Harrison,- G. J. C. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Christie. J. A. | Hartington, Marquess of | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Churchman. Sir Arthur C. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Oakley, T. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Haslam, Henry C. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A, D. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Penny, Frederick George |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunei | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Percy. Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Collox, Major Wm. Phillips | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Perring, Sir William George |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hills, Major John Walter | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hilton, Cecil | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Hohler Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Pilcher, G. |
| Couper, J. B. | Holt, Captain H. P. | Pilditch, Sir Philip |
| Courtauld, Major J. 8. | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Preston, William |
| Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester. Crewe) | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Ramsden, E. |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. d. W. (Berwick) | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Remer, J. R. |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Hume, Sir G. H. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Hurd, Percy A, | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Smithers, Waldron | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Ropner, Major L. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Spender Clay, Colonel H. | Wells, S. R. |
| Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple |
| Rye, F. G. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Salmon, Major 1. | Streatfield, Captain S. R. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Styles, Captain H. W. | Withers, John James |
| Sandeman, N. Stewart | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Womersley, W. J. |
| Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) | Wood, R C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Savery, S. S. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) | Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel.(Renfrew, W.) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) |
| Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Shepperson, E. W. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. | Wright, Brig.-General W. D. |
| Skelton, A. N. | Wallace, Captain D. E. | |
| Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingtton-on-Hull) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. | Major The Marquess of Titchfield and Sir Victor Warrender. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Henderson, T, (Glasgow) | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
| Amnion, Charles George | Hirst, G. H. | Scurr, John |
| Baker, J, (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Sexton, James |
| Baker, Walter | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Barnes, A. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Shinwell, E. |
| Barr, J. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Batey, Joseph | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Smillie, Robert |
| Bellamy, A. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Kelly, W. T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Briant, Frank | Kennedy, T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Broad, F. A. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Bromfield, William | Lansbury, George | Strauss, E. A. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Lawrence, Susan | Sullivan, J. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Lawson, John James | Sutton, J. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lea, F. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lindley, F. W. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Compton, Joseph | Livingstone, A. M. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Connolly, M. | Longbottom, A. W. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Cove, W. G. | Lowth, T. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lunn, William | Tomlinson, R. P. |
| Dalton, Hugh | MacDonald, Ht. Hon. J. H. (Aberavon) | Townend, A. E. |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Mackinder, W. | Viant, S. P. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Day, Harry | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Dennison, R. | March, S. | Warne. G. H. |
| Dunnico, H. | Maxton, James | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Montague, Frederick | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Morris, R. H. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah |
| Gardner, J, P. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd | Mosley, Sir Oswald | Welsh, J. C. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Naylor, T. E. | Westwood, J. |
| Gillett, George M. | Oliver, George Harold | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Greenwood. A. (Nelson and Colne) | Owen, Major G. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Paling, W. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Potts, John S. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wright, W. |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Riley, Ben | |
| Hardle, George D. | Ritson, J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Harris, Percy A. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Whiteley. |
§ The CHAIRMAN then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Questions on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the Business to be concluded at half-
2710§ past Seven of the Clock at this day's Sitting.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The committee divided: Ayes, 251; Noes, 132.
2713| Division No. 75.] | AYES. | [7.40 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Applin, Colonel R. V. K. |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Allen, Sir J. Sandeman | Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. |
| Albery, Irving James | Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Astor, Viscountess |
| Atkinson, C. | Gates, Percy | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Balfour, George (Hamstead) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert |
| Balnial, Lord | Glyn, Major fl. G. C. | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Goff, Sir Park | Oakley, T. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Grace, John | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Bennett, A. J, | Grant, Sir J. A. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Grattan-Doyle, S'r N. | Penny, Frederick George |
| Berry, Sir George | Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Bevan, S. J. | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Perkins, Colonel E. K, |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Grotrian, H. Brent | Perring, Sir William George |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart | Hacking, Douglas H. | Pilcher, G. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Pilditch, Sir Philip |
| Brass, Captain W. | Hammersley, S. S. | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hanbury, C. | Preston, William |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Harland, A. | Ramsden, E. |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Harrison, G. J. C. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hartington, Marquess of | Remer, J. R. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'ld., Hexham) | Haslam, Henry C. | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Buckingham, sir H. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Ropner, Major L. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Rye, F. G. |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hills, Major John Waller | Salmon, Major I. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hilton, Cecil | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Cayzer Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Holt, Captain H. P. | Sandeman, N- Stewart |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Sanders. Sir Robert A. |
| Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Savery, S. S. |
| Christie, J. A. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.) |
| Churchman. Sir Arthur C. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hume, Sir G. H. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hurd, Percy A. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Hurst, Gerald B. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Colfox, Major William Phillips | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Smithers Waldron |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Iveagh, Countess of | Somerville. A. A. (Windsor) |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Couper, J. B. | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Streatfelld, Captain S. R. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | Knox, Sir Alfred | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Lamb, J. 0. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Loder, J. de V. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Lougher, Lewis | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen. South) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Luce, Maj.-Gen. sir Richard Harman | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Davies, Maj. Geo F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Macmillan, Captain H. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kinglton-on-Hull) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Maitland. Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Margesson, Captain D. | Wells, S. R. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | White. Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Meyer, Sir Frank | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Milne. J. S. Wardlaw- | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Evans. Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Withers, John James |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Wolmer, viscount |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Womersley, W J. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Forestler-walker, Sir L. | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Forrest, W. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Wood, Sir s. Hill- (High Peak) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Nail. Colonel Sir Joseph | Wright, Brig.-General W. D. |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Nelson, Sir Frank | |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Major the Marquess of Tichfield and Sir Victor Warrender. |
| Ganzonl, Sir John | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) | Hirst, G. H. | Scurr, John |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Sexton, James |
| Amman, Charles George | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Hudson, J. H. (Hudderefield). | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Baker, Walter | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Shinwell, E. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Barr, J. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Slesser, sir Henry H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Smillie, Robert |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth) | Smith, Rennie (Penlstone) |
| Bellamy, A. | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Kelly, W. T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Bewerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Kennedy, T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Brlant, Frank | Ken worthy. Lt. Com. Hon. Joseph M | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Broad, F. A. | Lansbury, George | Strauss, E. A. |
| Bromfield, William | Lawrence, Susan | Sullivan, J. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Lawson, John James | Sutton, J. E. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Butt) | Lee, F. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lindley, F. W. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Livingstone, A. M. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Compton, Joseph | Longbottom, A. W. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Connolly, M. | Lowth, T. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Cove, W. G. | Lunn, William | Tomlinson, R, p. |
| Crawfurd, H. E, | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Townend, A. E. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Mackinder, W. | Vlant, S. P. |
| Davies, Ellis (Denblgh, Denblgh) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Day, Harry | March, S. | Warne, G. H. |
| Dennison, R. | Maxton, James | Watts-Morgan, Lt. Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Dunnico, H. | Montague, Frederick | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Morris, R. H. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Gardner, J. P. | Mosley, Sir Oswald | Welsh, J. C. |
| George, Rt. Hon, David Lloyd | Naylor, T. E. | Westwood, J. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Whiteley, W. |
| Gillett, George M. | Owen, Major G. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Paling, W. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wilton, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Potts, John S. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wright, W. |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Riley, Ben | |
| Hardle, George D. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W, Bromwich) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Harris, Percy A. | Runclman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) | Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. T. Henderson. |
| Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Saklatvala, Shapurji |