Commons Sitting of 17 December 1928

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  INDIA.

    MEMORIALS.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Secretary of State for India is aware that since June, 1927, officials in India have been deprived of the privilege of sending direct to him copies of petitions addressed to him of which the originals are transmitted through the regular official channel; and whether this change in procedure was made with the approval of the Secretary of State?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Earl Winterton): I must refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given to him on 30th July last, to which I have nothing to add.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is my Noble Friend aware that two petitions on a subject on which the India Office and the Government of India were in correspondence were sent in March of last year and were only forwarded to the India Office in July and that the claims of the petitioners were thereby prejudiced; and would it not be better to revert to the old practice whereby a copy of the petition had to be forwarded, through the Government of India, direct to the India Office?
    Earl WINTERTON: No, Sir. There was no such privilege as my hon. and gallant Friend seems to assume to have existed in the past, and it would have been very strange if there had been, because, so far as I know, it is contrary to the practice in all the military and Civil Services of the Crown. My hon. and gallant Friend knows, from his own service in the Army, that no officer in
    2584
    the Army is allowed to send a petition direct to the Secretary of State for War, but that it has to be sent through the official channels. If there has been delay through the official channels, and my hon. and gallant Friend will send me specific cases, I will inquire into them.

    MARRIAGE (MINIMUM AGE).
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has now any information with regard to the official policy as to the later stages of the Bill at present before that body dealing with the minimum age of marriage?
    Earl WINTERTON: I have no definite information, but have no reason to suppose that the Government have found reason to modify their intention, expressed in the Assembly in March last, to give this proposed Measure, in its revised form, their cordial support.

    DETENIIS.
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India if there is any limit as to the time which the three Sikhs, at present in prison in India under Regulation 111 of 1818, without trial may be detained on the ground that if they were released they might commit crime?
    Earl WINTERTON: The answer to the legal question as put is in the negative, but I may inform the hon. Member that my Noble Friend is ascertaining the views of the Government of India as to these three persons.
    Mr. THURTLE: Will the Noble Lord bear in mind that it is altogether un-English to keep people in prison for a long time without their having been tried, and merely on suspicion that they may commit a crime?
    Earl WINTERTON: The hon. Gentleman should have made those representations to Lord Olivier in the late Government.
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India if, in view of the fact that there are now no longer any prisoners being detained under the Bengal Criminal Ordinance Act and that there have been no arrests under this

    2585
    Act for the last 12 months, and having regard to the fact that the Act was brought into existence as an emergency measure, the Government will now suggest to the Government of India that the Act should be annulled?
    Earl WINTERTON: The Bengal Criminal Law Amendment Act expires in April, 1930, if its duration is not prolonged. My Noble Friend sees no sufficient reason at present for taking any step of the kind suggested.
    Mr. THURTLE: Is the Noble Lord aware that this Act was brought into being to meet an emergency, and that the facts show that the emergency has now passed away; and, in view of these circumstances, does he not think that it would be a good thing from the point of view of Indian opinion if some steps were taken to annul the Act?
    Earl WINTERTON: I regret that I can add nothing to the answer I have already given.

    OFFICIALS, CALCUTTA (MR. KIRKWOOD).
    Mr. MURNINasked the Under Secretary of State for India whether he has received a copy of papers and a petition from Mr. James Kirkwood, late of Calcutta, in which serious allegations are made regarding various public officials in Calcutta; and whether he will take any steps to ensure a proper examination of Mr. Kirkwood's allegations in the public interest?
    Earl WINTERTON: Mr. Kirkwood on arrival in this country addressed my Noble Friend regarding his treatment by the management of a hotel in Calcutta and an alleged failure of the Chief Presidency Magistrate and various public officers to give him due protection. My Noble Friend was advised that Mr. Kirkwood's proper course was to seek a remedy in the Courts and he was informed accordingly.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Can the Noble Lord say whether Mr. Kirkwood also made allegations regarding the Chief of Police in Calcutta?
    Earl WINTERTON: I should hesitate, and I am sure the hon. Member would appreciate my reason for doing so, to deal with these allegations, which are of a somewhat wild nature, because I think this unfortunate gentleman has
    2586
    been killed in France according to the newspapers I saw this morning. I should hesitate, if the hon. Member will excuse me from replying, to give a full answer to the allegations, which were made in a very long statement against 30 different authorities.

    FACTORY INSPECTORATE.
    Mr. DAYasked the Under-Secretary of State for India the total present number of the factory inspectorate; and whether there has been any increase during the previous 12 months?
    Earl WINTERTON: According to the latest information available, the total of the factory inspectorate in India is 49, including nine part-time additional factory inspectors. I am unable to say whether there has been any increase during the previous 12 months.
    Mr. DAY: Does not the Noble Lord think that this is a very small number for India, and will he consider suggesting an increase in the number?
    Earl WINTERTON: I do not think the hon. Member is aware that this comes under the transferred services, and that any consideration of the numbers required would be a matter for the local governments, the Provincial and Presidency Governments.

    NYASALAND.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is now the white and coloured population of Nyasaland; whether he is aware that the estimated expenditure of the Colony for 1928 amounts to £493,385; by how much this expenditure would be further increased if the Zambesi bridge, costing £1,000,000, is sanctioned; and, before giving any such sanction, will he consider the views of the residents in Nyasaland on the increased charge or liability?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Amery): The returns for 1927 give the population of Nyasaland as follows:

    Europeans, including officials

    1,829

    Asiatics

    982

    Natives

    1,304,123

    2587
    The reply to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. I am unable to answer the third part until the financial arrangements necessary to give effect to the scheme have been fully worked out. With regard to the last part, consideration will, of course, be given to the views of representative bodies in Nyasaland as to the effect on the finances of the Protectorate of any proposals which may be adopted.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the number of taxpayers is rather small to take on this very heavy additional burden?
    Mr. AMERY: I hope that both the number and the resources of those taxpayers will be considerably increased as a result of improving communications.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: When the Zambesi blows the bridge away?

    ARABIA.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what information he has of the reported rising in Arabia in the territories of the King of the Hejaz; and whether British interests are affected in any way?
    Mr. AMERY: I have no information as to any rising in the territories of the King of the Hejaz.

    DEAD SEA SALT CONCESSIONS.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies of what nature is the claim with regard to the Dead Sea salt concessions made by a foreign Power on behalf of its nationals; how does the matter now stand; whether he can state what has happened to the concession granted by the pre-War Turkish Government; and whether the International Court of Justice are to be asked to arbitrate in the matter?
    Mr. AMERY: Before the War, the Turkish Government are alleged to have granted to certain Ottoman subjects a concession for the extraction of certain substances from the waters of the Dead Sea. From time to time His Majesty's
    2588
    Government have been requested to recognise this concession; the most recent request was preferred on behalf of a French group which, it is understood, has acquired an interest in the concession at a comparatively recent date. His Majesty's Government, being advised that they were under no legal obligation to recognise the concession, have consistently and repeatedly declined to recognise it. I see no reason to modify this attitude or to refer the question to the Permanent Court of International Justice.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Under the Treaty of Lausanne, were not pre-War Turkish concessions upheld?
    Mr. AMERY: No, Sir, not to Turkish Concessionaires.

    PALESTINE (TEL AVIV).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the poorer citizens of the free city of Tel Aviv have been disfranchised after nine years of voting powers; why the powers of the municipal council have also been curtailed; who or what body was dissatisfied with labour rule in Tel Aviv, demanding this change; and whether he will ask the new high commissioner to inquire into the reasons for and justification of this action of the Palestinian Government?
    Mr. AMERY: There has been no curtailment of the powers of the local Council of Tel Aviv, but only a reduction in numbers. Nor do I understand that the raising of the voting qualification, which is still at a very low figure, would disqualify any large proportion of the electorate. These changes have not been concerned with the political views of the Council, but have been necessitated, in the opinion of the High Commissioner, by the financial difficulties in which the Municipality became involved.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Labour Government in Tel Aviv for many years worked admirably with the District Commissioner, Mr. Campbell?
    Mr. AMERY: I believe that the relations were very happy, but the municipality became hopelessly bankrupt.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Was the bankruptcy of this municipality due to the poorer voters who have now been disfranchised, and will this question be reconsidered by the new High Commissioner, now that he is in Palestine, as it is giving rise to great dissatisfaction?
    Mr. AMERY: I understand that the High Commissioner is satisfied that the changes were necessary.

    CEYLON.
    Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONEasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any statement to make regarding the policy of His Majesty's Government towards the constitution of Ceylon?
    Mr. AMERY: I cannot at present add anything to the reply given to the hon. Member on the 19th November.
    Mr. MALONE: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will not allow the views of a minority in Ceylon to prevent the granting of the franchise to the majority?
    Mr. AMERY: I will certainly consider very carefully all relevant matters.

    EMPIRE SETTLEMENT.
    Mr. DAYasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is now in a position to make any further statement with regard to the future arrangements for emigration to Canada?
    Mr. AMERY: I am not yet in a position to make a further statement, but, if the hon. Member will repeat his question on Wednesday, I hope then to be able to do so.
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of appointing a Committee to investigate every aspect of this question, and of asking the Canadian Government, having regard to recent events, to give impartial consideration to the matter at once?
    Mr. AMERY: I should have to consider that suggestion, and shall be very glad to discuss it with the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. DAYasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether any negotiations are proceeding between His Majesty's Government and the British steamship lines for a proportionate reduction in the fares of children travelling with their parents or in parties, who are proceeding from this country for the purpose of residing permanently in the Dominion of Canada?
    Mr. AMERY: In connection with the £10 ocean rate to Canada for British migrants, children under 10 years of age will be charged half-fare (£5), and those under one year £1. Children under 19 years, of age proceeding under the Government Assisted Passage Scheme, whether with their parents or under the auspices of recognised societies, receive free fares to their final destination in Canada.
    Mr. DAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman make representations or arrange that children under 12 shall receive this benefit, instead of merely children under. 10?
    Mr. AMERY: These things have been worked out very carefully with the shipping companies, and it is rather difficult to alter the age after agreement has been reached.
    Mr. DAY: Could it not be put on the same basis as railway fares in this country?
    Mr. W. HIRSTasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs on what terms the £10 assisted passage rate to Canada has been arranged; with whom have these conditions been effected; and what are the Exchequer grants towards the cost of this proposal?
    Mr. AMERY: The difference between the new £10 rate for British migrants to Canada and the ordinary third-class rate, i.e., £18 15s., will he shared between His Majesty's Government in Great Britain and the British steamship lines. The contribution of His Majesty's Government will vary according to the numbers of passengers carried, but in no case will it exceed half of the cost of that difference.
    Mr. HIRSTasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the £2 assisted passage rate to Canada has been or is proposed to be discontinued?
    Mr. AMERY: The £2 assisted passage rate to Canada will continue to be available for approved families proceeding to agricultural work and for women household workers, and free passages will be granted to children and juveniles up to 19 years of age. The £2 rate will not be available for single men over 19 years of age after the end of this year, but they will, of course, be able to travel at the new £10 ocean rate for British migrants.
    Major-General Sir NEWTON MOOREasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is aware that the latest Canadian Returns show that for every British immigrant entering Canada there are more than two from non-British countries; and whether the measures in prospect will serve to remove that disparity?
    Mr. HURDasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is aware that, according to official Canadian Returns, 47,390 migrants from Great Britain entered Canada in the migration season of 1928, and 62,990 from foreign countries other than the United States, including large numbers of Ruthenians, Germans, Poles, Magyars, Slovaks, and Jugo-Slays; and whether he will ask the Oversea Settlement Committee to consider how best to respond to the British-preferred policy of the Canadian Government?
    Mr. AMERY: I understand that the facts are as stated. The question of the measures to be taken to increase migration from this country to Canada is one which is under constant study by the Oversea Settlement Committee. As an instance of action recently taken. I may refer to the announcement which I made in this House on the 7th instant as to the arrangement reached with the shipping companies for a reduction in the passage rate for British migrants to Canada.
    Mr. HURD: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen a telegram from Ottawa, dated Saturday, as to the division of administrative expenses between Canada and the British Government, and the statement of the Director of Colonisation of the Canadian National Railways that the costs paid by Dominion organisations are approximately 20 times the cost borne by our Treasury?
    Mr. AMERY: No, I have not seen that statement.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Is it not a fact that many large employers in Canada prefer to employ non-British immigrants because they are prepared to accept lower wages than Englishmen?
    Sir N. MOOREasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the Government have approved of the allocation of the necessary expenditure in connection with the proved scheme of development under the Empire development scheme on the Lachlan River Valley, New South Wales; state the sum involved, the area of land to be dealt with, the number of wheat farmers that can be settled in this area, the average area per. settler, the cost per acre to the individual selector, and the method of repayment?
    Mr. AMERY: A scheme for the construction of a dam at Wyangala, to pro vide for the irrigation of a large area of. Crown and other land on the Lachlan River, New South Wales, was approved under the Commonwealth Loan Agreement in October last. The total cost of the scheme is estimated at £1,500,000 spread over five years, and the cost to His Majesty's Government. will be a fifth of this amount. The area to be served by the scheme is 1.400,000 acres, of which approximately one-half is Crown land. It is estimated that about 630 new farms will be created mainly for wheat. The average size of the farms, the cost per acre and the terms of repayment will be determined by the Government of New South Wales.

  IRISH FREE STATE.

    EX-BRITISH Civil, SERVANTS.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, (1), if he can inform the House as to whether Messrs. Wigg and Cochrane, the appellants who woe their case before the Privy Council in May, 1927, have now been paid the compensation awarded to them: and, if not. what action the British Government are taking to secure the payments to which their former servants have been held t(, be entitled under Article 10 of the Irish Treaty;

    2593
    (2) whether he is aware that some hundreds of ex-British civil servants transferred from the British Civil Service to the Irish Free State Civil Service have submitted applications for retirement under Article X of the Irish treaty, in many cases several years ago, and that such applications are still undealt with; and what action the British Government are taking to secure the observance of Article X of the Irish treaty in this respect?
    Mr. AMERY: In reply to these two questions, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to similar questions by him on Monday, 26th November, to which I am not at present in a position to add anything.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the British Government still recognise their responsibility for seeing that these ex-British servants of the British Crown shall receive their rights to which they have been held to he entitled?
    Mr. AMERY: Oh, yes, the British Government still fully recognise their responsibility in this matter, as they have before, but I am not yet in a position to give an answer to my hon. Friend.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Can my right hon. Friend say approximately when this matter will be decided, because these unfortunate people have now been without the compensation, to which they have been twice held by the Privy Council to be entitled, for more than two years, and many for a longer period?
    Mr. AMERY: Naturally, I should like to make a statement as soon as possible, and I hope to be in a position to do so as soon as we meet again.

    IRISH GRANTS COMMITTEE.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Secretary of state for Dominion Affairs the number of claims of Southern Irish loyalists in respect of loss and damage to person and property which have still to be disposed of by the Irish Grants Committee; when it is expected that the hearing of these claims will be completed; whether the outstanding balance still due to those who have already had their claims heard and settled can now
    2594
    be paid; and, if not, when it is expected that this balance will be paid?
    Mr. AMERY: With regard to the first two parts of my hon. Friend's question, I would refer to the reply which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Colonel Howard-Bury) on the 12th November. Since that date 120 further cases have been dealt with by the Irish Grants Committee. As regards the last two parts of the question, it will be recalled that the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated on the 20th February last, that a sum not exceeding £1,000,000 would be held available as required in satisfaction of these claims, that all awards up to £1,000 would at once be paid in full, that of the excess over that figure 60 per cent. would he advanced immediately, that the residue would be applied to the recommendations at the close of the Inquiry so far as they had not already been implemented, and that this decision must be taken as final so far as His Majesty's present advisers are concerned. It has now become clear that payment on the above scale—that is, payment in full of all awards up to £1,000, and 60 per cent. of the excess over that figure—will involve the expenditure of at least the sum of £1,000,000 which was allocated, and in these circumstances no payments in addition to those on the scale now authorised can be made. I may add that under the operation of the authorised scale 32 per cent. of the recommendations so far made by the Committee have been paid in full. In the case of the remaining recommendations, two-thirds of the claimants, or another 12 per cent. of the whole, have been paid amounts varying from 75 to 99 per cent. of the full amount recommended.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Do we understand that the British Government are declining to be responsible for 40 per cent. of the damages to which these unfortunate people have been held to be entitled by a Commission specially appointed with the authority of the British Government?
    Mr. AMERY: No, Sir; my hon. Friend is not quite correct in his figures. The payment made in respect of these claims is not 60 per cent. of the awards, but the whole of the awards up to £1,000 and

    2595
    60 per cent. of the remainder. As I pointed out in my answer, that means payment in full of 82 per cent. of the awards, and from 75 to 99 per cent. of the full payment in the case of another 12 per cent.
    Mr. THOMAS: Is it not true that there is a difference of over 50 per cent. being claimed?
    Mr. AMERY: In many cases that and more.
    Mr. CRAWFURD: What is the reason for the application of the epithet "Loyalist" to one particular section of His Majesty's subjects in Ireland?
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Do we understand that £1,000,000 has all been expended, or does a substantial balance remain to meet outstanding claims?
    Mr. AMERY: £1,000,000 has been set aside as the final sum the Government are prepared to pay. Out of that £1,000,000, very considerable payments have already been made in full payment of awards up to £1,000, and of full payment of the first £1,000 and 60 per cent. of the rest. The satisfaction of all the claims awarded or likely to have an award is likely to involve, at the rate of £1,000 plus GO per cent., a sum of possibly £50,000 over £1,000,000.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say the Government are quibbling at these small sums and are not going to pay the full recommendation of the Committee which they themselves set up to inquire into the case and which has done it so very thoroughly and carefully?
    Mr. AMERY: We discussed the matter very fully in February, and the Government, while paying every tribute to the care and impartiality of the Committee, did announce that £1,000,000 represented the sum total of the payment that was going to be made:

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    SOUTH AFRICA AND GERMANY (TREATY).
    Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Secretary of State for Dominion
    2596
    Affairs whether, with regard to the new trade treaty between South Africa and Germany, he can state the number and most important articles at present enjoying Empire preference, and what are the maximum and minimum amounts of preference; and whether he will publish the representations made by the British Government with regard to this treaty?
    Mr. AMERY: As regards the first part of the question, I fear that it would not be possible to give the desired information within the limits of a reply to a Parliamentary question, but I shall be happy to send my hon. and gallant Friend copies of the relevant Union legislation. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative, but the general nature of the communications with the Union Government on the subject of the Commercial Treaty with Germany was described in the reply given, on my behalf, by my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies to questions on 4th December.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are very few articles which have these preferences to-day, and will he agree, from the special significance the German papers attach to it, that this is a breach in our Government policy of Empire Preference?
    Mr. AMERY: I think, when the hon. and gallant. Gentleman sees the list, he will find that it is a very considerable one.
    Mr. HURD: Are we to regard this question as now closed, or is it still to be the subject of communication between himself and the South African Government?
    Mr. AMERY: No further communications as far as I know, are likely to pass between the British Government and the Union Government on the subject, but the matter is still subject to the consent of the South African Parliament.
    Mr. RENNIE SMITH: In view of recent reports published by the Overseas Trade Department, which indicate very serious loss to British trade owing to neglect of marketing conditions, will not the right hon. Gentleman pay attention to that side of the subject?

    EMPIRE MARKETING BOARD (LECTURES).
    Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what are the titles of lectures subsidized by the Empire Marketing. Board since 1st January, 1928, and by whom were the lectures delivered.
    Mr. AMERY: The titles of the lectures available for inclusion in the Board's subsidy scheme, together with the names of the lecturers, are contained in three printed lists, copies of which I am sending to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. CRAWFURD: Will the right hon. Gentleman himself examine the lectures given under the auspices of the Selborne Society, and let us know what help can be given to the disposal of Empire goods by lectures entitled "Some Curiosities of Currency."
    Mr. AMERY: I am not sure that all the lectures are made on behalf of the Empire Marketing Board. I should like to look into it.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman reply to the last part of the question?
    Mr. AMERY: I mentioned the names of the lecturers. They will be sent to my hon. Friend too. They are on the same list.

    LEIPZIG FAIR.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he can state the number of British firms who exhibited goods, or were represented, at the Leipzig autumn fair, 1928, and the industries with which they were connected; and how many have, so far, made application for space for exhibits at the spring fair 1930?
    Mr. DOUGLAS HACKING (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): According to a report received from the British Consulate at Leipzig, the number of British exhibitors at the Autumn Fair this year was 33. The principal exhibits were sports goods and clothing, knitted goods, leather goods, ceramic ware, motor cars and cycles, perfumery and toilet articles, gramophones and gramophone records, toys and household goods. No information is available in the
    2598
    Department as to the number of British firms who have applied for space at the Spring Fair in 1930.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Have the Government taken any steps to induce British manufacturers to exhibit at this fair?
    Mr. HACKING: We are giving them every opportunity by giving full information.
    Mr. RENNIE SMITH: May we take it that the Department is giving facilities with regard to language and classification?
    Mr. HANNONasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he is taking steps to call attention to British manufacturers at the forthcoming fair at Leipzig at the beginning of March next year, so that advantage may be taken of this medium for the exhibition of British manufactures with the object of the extension of British trade throughout Central Europe; and if he contemplates the organisation of a joint exhibit of British manufactures for this fair in co-operation with trade organisations in this country?
    Mr. HACKING: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, in view of its other commitments my Department is unable to undertake any responsibility in connection with the orgarisation of a joint exhibit of British manufacturers at the next Leipzig Fair. I feel sure, however, that such an exhibit, if judiciously selected, might be productive of increased trade for the firms participating, and my Department would be prepared to co-operate with any suitable body which undertook the orgarisation of a joint exhibit.
    Lieut. Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: If the Government are satisfied that exhibits at this fair are likely to be advantageous to British manufacturers, cannot my hon. Friend reconsider the proposition on the lines of the question of my hon. Friend and give some tangible assistance to British manufactures?
    Mr. HACKING: It is because we do give at the present time such a large amount of tangible assistance to British

    2599
    manufactures that I am afraid at the moment we cannot go any further.

    BARCELONA EXHIBITION.
    Mr. HANNONasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he contemplates any action for the encouragement of British exhibits at the Barcelona exhibition to be held next year, with the object of extending British trade in Spain; and if his Department is prepared to give financial support to an organised effort for a joint exhibit of British manufactures at Barcelona?
    Mr. HACKING: In view of the other commitments of my Department in connection with the organisation of exhibitions, and in view of the financial situation, His Majesty's Government felt unable to accept the invitation of the Spanish Government to participate officially in the Barcelona Exhibition. Close touch has, however, been maintained with the British Chamber of Commerce in Spain and full information as to the British firms likely to be interested has been provided. Publicity has been given to the exhibition in the Board of Trade Journal, and information and literature have been distributed to prospective British exhibitors. With regard to the last part of the question, I am not prepared to recommend at this very late hour a reversal of the decision already taken.
    Mr. HANNON: Is not assistance of the kind suggested in the question to British manufacturers the most admirable way of developing markets abroad, and would the hon. Gentleman consider, perhaps in more favourable circumstances next year, a reversal of this policy?
    Mr. HACKING: We are always prepared to consider how we can help British industry.

    JOHANNESBURG AGRICULTURAL SHOW
    Mr. HANNONasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he is in a position to state the nature of the manufactured goods from various countries exhibited at the Johannesburg Agricultural Show last year; and whether, as such exhibits were only to the extent of less than 10 per cent. composed of agricultural implements and machinery, the remainder com-
    2600
    prising manufactured articles of all descriptions, and in view of the importance of this show as a means of promoting the sale of British goods in the South African Union, he will consider the advisability of giving some measure of financial support to a joint exhibit to be organised of British manufactures?
    Mr. HACKING: According to my information the exhibits in the Overseas Industries Section of the Johannesburg Agricultural Show consisted principally of consumers' goods, the few exceptions being goods of agricultural interest, such as fertilisers, dips, insecticides, etc. My information is that the Agricultural Machinery Section was by far the largest and most important of the Industrial exhibits at the Show. With regard to the last part of the question, I fear that it will not be possible to give financial support for the organisation of a British exhibit. My Department will be pleased, however, to render any assistance in its power to anybody organising such an exhibit.
    Mr. HANNON: Does not my hon. Friend think that it is a very deplorable state of affairs that foreign Governments give assistance to their manufacturers in order to enable them to exhibit at this show in South Africa while the British Government do nothing at all?
    Mr. HACKING: Well, Sir, we do give and will continue to give all the assistance in our power, but as my hon. Friend knows, it must be limited by financial considerations.
    Mr. HANNON: In point of fact, at last year's exhibition at Johannesburg the German Government, for example, gave substantial assistance to their own manufacturers having exhibits there.

    IMPERIAL CONFERENCE.
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether it is proposed to postpone the Imperial Conference which, in the ordinary course would be held in 1929, to the following year?
    Mr. AMERY: I fear that I am not in a position at present to answer my hon. Friend's inquiry. The date of the next meeting of the Imperial Conference has not yet been settled.
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: When will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to answer?
    Mr. AMERY: I really could not say.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    OFFICE OF WORKS.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMESasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will state the reason for the filling of an acting post of higher grade technical assistant in the engineering division in the Office of Works by a non-service War entrant; whether there are ex-service candidates serving in that division with the requisite qualifications for this post; if so, why one of such candidates has not been selected to fill the post under the recommendations contained in paragraph 45 of the Third Lytton Report and the arrangements made in Treasury letter of 27th August to the Association of Ex-Service Civil Servants concerning the mariner in which technical vacancies are to be filled under that paragraph of the Lytton Report; whether a vacancy at present exists for an established higher grade technical assistant in the engineering division; and, if so, whether a selection for this post will be made from among the existing ex-service officers who are regarded by experience and qualification as in all respects eligible for appointment to such post?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Lieut.-Colonel Sir Vivian Henderson): The post in question was filled in the ordinary course of promotion by the selection of the most competent of all the officers serving in the lower grade. Paragraph 45 of the Third Lytton Report, and the letter mentioned, regulate the procedure to be followed in dealing with vacancies which in the normal course would be filled by outside candidates, and cannot be held to apply to vacancies which are normally filled by promotion: the existing vacancy will filled in accordance with the usual Promotion Board machinery.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First
    2602
    Commissioner of Works, if he is aware that a number of men employed by his Department in Glasgow were dismissed last summer; that many of these men have long years of service; and will he take steps to have them reinstated?
    Sir V. HENDERSON: I am not aware of the dismissal of any men employed by the Department in Glasgow last summer, hut if the hon. Member will forward particulars I will cause inquiries to be made.

    SCOTTISH BOARD OF HEALTH (ACCOMMODATION).
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will consider altering or improving the present accommodation for both the staff and inquiries in the offices of the Scottish Board of Health, seeing that the number of persons inquiring is not tending to decrease?
    Sir V. HENDERSON: If the hon. Member will let me have information as to the particular office or offices in question, I shall have the necessary inquiry made.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RATING.

    STANDARD YEAR EXPENDITURE.
    Sir CYRIL COBBasked the Minister of Health whether the expression, the expenditure in respect of the standard year which would have fallen to be borne by rates, used in paragraph 1 (a) of Part I of the Fourth Schedule of the Local Government Bill means the net expenditure, after allowing for Exchequer grants and receiptsin-aid, actually incurred in respect of the standard year and charged on rates; and whether such expenditure will include deficiencies on trading undertakings met out of rates?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sit Kingsley Wood): It is the intention that the expenditure of which account will be taken shall include net expenditure of all kinds in respect of the standard year properly falling to be borne by rates, irrespective of whether

    2603
    the actual rates levied were more, or less, than sufficient for the purpose. Account will be taken of deficiencies on trading undertakings properly met out of rates.

    RAILWAY FREIGHT REBATE (IRON AND STEEL).
    Mr. BATEYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether there has been a reduction in the prices for iron and steel through the freight relief on public railways which commenced on 1st December, 1928, and the average amount of such reduction?
    Mr. HACKING: I understand that there has been no substantial change in iron and steel prices since the 1st December. The materials which were used in the manufacture of the iron and steel now being sold were no doubt brought to the iron and steel works some weeks or months ago.
    Mr. BATEY: Are we to understand that while the policy of the Government was to give this particular relief in order that iron and steel might be cheapened, a lower price is not being charged for iron and steel?
    Mr. HACKING: There was no relief upon freight on the raw materials that were used for the manufacture of iron and steel which is now being sold.
    Mr. BATEY: Has there not been coal carried to iron and steel works since the 4th December? Has that tended to decrease the price of iron and steel?
    Mr. HACKING: It. will do. The iron and steel which is now being sold was manufactured from raw materials which were in stock before the freight relief came into existence.

    COAL INDUSTRY.
    Mr. BATEYasked the Secretary for Mines the average amount of the reduction of selling prices for export coal through the freight relief on public railways which commenced on 1st December, 1928?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Commodore Douglas King): There are many factors which affect the price at which coal is sold, and it is difficult to assess the value of any one factor at a particular time. It has been estimated that
    2604
    the average relief under the freight rebates scheme amounts to approximately 7d. a ton on export and foreign bunker coal; but whether the relief is used to reduce price, or to help bridge the present gap between costs of production and proceeds, is a matter for the industry itself to determine.
    Mr. SHINWELL: How are you ever going to know that the reduced freights were of any value?
    Commodore KING: I should think nobody has any doubt about that.
    Mr. BATEY: Are we to assume that there has been no reduction in prices and that this money has gone into the pockets of the coalowners?
    Commodore KING: No, Sir. The hon. Member must not assume more than I have said in my answer.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    EAST LONDON (TRANSFERRED WORKERS).
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Minister of Labour what is the name of the trade union which took action resulting in the discharge of 12 men from Woolworth's works at Commercial Street, Whitchapel; whether he has made any inquiries of the discharged men as to whether they are non-unionists; in how many other instances similar action has been taken against London men in order to find work for men from the mining areas; how many of the 12 discharged men have been found other work; and were they paid unemployment benefit during their period of enforced unemployment?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Arthur Steel-Maitland): I am making certain further inquiries and will let the hon. Member know the result.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I would like to give notice that my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar (Mr. March) intends to raise this matter on the Adjournment, and I hope that the information will be forthcoming. It is a very important matter to us.

    HOLLESLEY BAY LABOUR COLONY.
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Minister of Health haw many men passed through the Hollesley Bay Labour Colony during each of the years since its inception

    2605
    down to 2nd August, 1914; how many of these are known to have migrated; how many returned to work in the Metropolis; and how many found work in agricultural districts in this country?

    The Central (Unemployed) Body for London.

    Particulars in relation to 'Men admitted to Hollesley Bay Colony, from 12th December, 1905, to 30th June, 1914.

    Period.

    Number of men employed.

    Number of men trained at Colony and emigrated.

    Number of men found work in Agricultural Districts at home.

    Number of men found work in London.

    1.

    2

    3.

    4.

    5.

    From 12th December, 1905 to 12th May, 1906.

    624

    71

    27

    86

    From 12th May, 1906 to 30th June, 1907.

    1,121

    145

    66

    184

    From 1st July, 1907 to 30th June, 1908.

    1,059

    41

    47

    71

    From 1st July, 1908 to 30th June, 1909.

    1,174

    117

    66

    101

    From 1st July, 1909 to 30th June, 1910.

    1,404

    82

    45

    234

    From 1st July, 1910 to 30th June, 1911.

    1,589

    336

    59

    300

    From 1st July, 1911 to 30th June, 1912.

    1,341

    212

    45

    241

    From 1st July, 1912 to 30th June, 1913.

    1.303

    63

    39

    198

    From 1st July, 1913 to 30th June, 1914.

    1,293

    69

    48

    177

    RYE LIFEBOAT DISASTER (INQUIRY).
    Sir JOHN POWERasked the President of the Board of Trade when the tribunal will be appointed to inquire into the Rye lifeboat disaster; and if he can state the composition of the tribunal?
    Mr. HACKING: The inquiry into the casualty to the Rye lifeboat is to be held in the Town Hall, Rye, on the 19th December. The Court will be presided over by his Honour Judge Cann as Wreck Commissioner. Vice - Admiral E. L. Booty, C.B., M.V.O., Captain J. Garriock, and Mr. E. F. Spanner have been appointed by the Home Office to act as assessors.

  DISTRESSED MINING AREAS.
    GOVERNMENT GRANTS.

      PRIME MINISTER'S STATEMENT.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister if he can now
      Sir K. WOOD: As the reply to the hon. Member's question involves a tabular statement I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
      Following is the statement:
      state which of His Majesty's Ministers will be answerable to Parliament for the work and duties of Mr. Curtis-Bennett in co-ordinating charitable efforts on behalf of the distressed districts; and on which Vote will the salary, expenses, and office expenses of Mr. Curtis-Bennett and his assistants and staff be borne?
      Mr. LAWSONasked the Prime Minister whether he will be able to give the House a definite statement before the Adjournment on the question of a Government grant towards the distressed areas?
      The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): I shall be glad if the hon. Members will be good enough to await the statement which, with Mr. Speaker's permission, I propose to make at the close of questions.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am quite content. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether he will then deal with the second part of Question 45?
      The PRIME MINISTER: I hope to be able to answer the whole question. It is rather a long answer; that is why I have asked to be allowed to make a statement afterwards.
      Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD( by Private Notice): May I ask the Prime Minister whether he can now make a statement with regard to the Government's proposals for assistance to distressed areas?
      The PRIME MINISTER: I make no apology for the length of the answer.
      The Government propose to ask Parliament to authorise certain special measures to deal with the present emergency in the distressed mining areas. It is important that these measures should be considered in relation to the policy which the Government have already initiated and are resolved to pursue. Apart altogether from the heavy cost of the normal social services, including unemployment insurance, school medical services and maternity and child welfare—and apart, also from the proposals for the relief of industry and rates embodied in the Local Government Bills—the special provision made by the Exchequer for assistance to the unemployed in general and to the distressed areas in particular during the current financial year amounts to £1,700,000 over and above the Budget Estimates, and the continuance of the assistance contemplated for next year on the same lines will involve expenditure in 1929 in the neighbourhood of £4,250,000.
      The primary objective of the Government's policy is and must remain the training and transference, including emigration, of unemployed workers, for which purposes £2,000,000 is being provided, in the current financial year. The expenditure in 1929 for the same purposes is estimated to amount to approximately £3,000,000. The transfer of workers from the distressed areas is proceeding steadily and with increasing effectiveness, but it is hindered by two main difficulties. In the first place, married men find it difficult to leave their homes unless special assistance is available for the removal and re-settlement of their families. In the second place, a number of men who have been long unemployed are in danger of losing the
      2608
      physical fitness which is necessary to qualify them for work elsewhere, and the needs of these men can only be partly met by the expansion of the existing training schemes for which provision has already been made. In order to meet the first of these difficulties the Government will ask Parliament to approve an immediate vote of £100,000 for assisting the removal of families. In order to meet the second difficulty the Government have given instructions for the immediate examination of the possibility of devising schemes which will enable occupation to be given with a view to fitting the men who receive it for subsequent transfer to employment. The aim in promoting such schemes will be, not to anchor men for extended periods in areas where permanent employment is not likely to be available for them in the future, but rather to increase their efficiency as applicants for employment elsewhere.
      But whatever success may attend the Government's remedial policy, it is of course essential that the general health of the people in these areas should be maintained during the present difficult period of transition. The Government have come to the conclusion that the best method of giving additional help to the distressed areas is to assist the Lord Mayor's Fund more effectively to discharge its present work and to co-operate with it in extending that work in certain directions. They have therefore consulted the Lord Mayor, who has agreed that the scope of his Fund should include the provision of meals for adults and children who require additional nourishment during the winter months, the Government, on their part, undertaking to provide the Lord Mayors of Cardiff and Newcastle with the administrative assistance required. This arrangement will be supplementary to, and not in re placement of, the existing public services For instance, Local Education Authorities will continue to exercise their existing powers for the feeding of children and will continue to receive the usual grants from the Board of Education, but they will be able to supplement their resources by co-operating with the local committee of the Lord Mayor's Fund, which for this purpose will act as a School Canteen Committee in the manner contemplated by the Education Act.

      2609
      The Government desire, however, that these new duties shall not entail the diversion of money subscribed to the Lord Mayor's Fund from the objects to which that Fund has hitherto been mainly devoted. They desire, on the contrary, to assist the Fund to attain those objects more effectively in the future than in the past. They propose, therefore, to ask Parliament for authority to grant to the Fund £1 for every £1 received in voluntary subscriptions to the Fund and as an immediate step to grant £150,000 to the Fund as the equivalent of the money already subscribed to it. The Government are confident that this offer, so far from discouraging, will greatly stimulate the support which the public are already giving to the Fund. Due provision will be made for measures to meet the needs of Scotland, where the position differs in several important respects. These measures will be in the personal charge of the Secretary of State for Scotland.
      The work of the Lord Mayor's Fund and the Distressed Coalfields Funds Organisation will affect the responsibilities of several Departments. For the convenience of the House the President of the Board of Education will answer questions on behalf of the Departments concerned. All questions affecting transference policy will continue to be answered by the Minister of Labour, and questions relating to Scotland Neill continue to be answered by the Secretary of State.
      Mr. MacDONALD: For the sake of further elucidation, may I ask when the Prime Minister proposes to lay the two Votes on the Table of the House?
      The PRIME MINISTER: I think it will be for the general convenience of the House if the Votes appear before we separate. We shall communicate through the usual channels, and I am hoping to get all the relevant Votes together so that they may be discussed together and give the House the widest field for discussion and the fullest information. I can say nothing more at the moment except that I am using every endeavour to get the Votes in the Vote Office by tomorrow evening.
      Mr. WILLIAM ADAMSON: Scotland is not participating in the benefits of the
      2610
      Lord Mayor's Fund, notwithstanding the fact that there is as much distress in the Scottish coal fields as in any other part of the country. Will the Prime Minister, therefore, indicate in what way Scotland is to get its share of the money that is being allocated by the Government?
      Lord HENRY CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: May I ask whether smaller areas of distress in Lancashire, Yorkshire, and Cumberland, will also benefit under the proposals?
      The PRIME MINISTER: I did not quite catch what the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck) said, but the House will remember that at the beginning of my answer I used a phrase which, I think, is quite explicit, "distressed mining areas." With regard to the question put by the right hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. W. Adamson), that is a matter which, I think, can be much better raised in Debate. It is impossible to discuss it now. I am aware that in Scotland the circumstances are somewhat different, and I have no knowledge as to what the Scottish people may be able to do. All I have intimated is that the proper proportion of the Exchequer grant given to England and Wales will be extended to Scotland as she needs it.
      Mr. ROBERT HUDSON: Does this statement about the other distressed areas participating in the Fund extend also to feeding The Prime Minister mentioned only the committees of Newcastle-on-Tyne and Cardiff.
      The PRIME MINISTER: That is a very natural question, because we all take so much interest in the matter. At present, the only local committees in existence are those to which I have alluded, but the phrase that I used at the beginning of my statement stands and covers all districts where there is the need, and there the proper and requisite steps will he taken.
      Mr. MacDONALD: While I have the greatest confidence in "the usual channels," may I ask whether the Government will take care that, when these Votes are put down, there will be ample time for the expression of views as to how the money ought to be spent?
      Mr. LUNN: Will the Government remove the restriction that has been placed on the Unemployment Grants Committee to see that 50 per cent. of those employed come from the distressed area, and allow the local authorities in the distressed areas to use the Unemployment Grants Committee for the purpose of improvements in their areas?
      The PRIME MINISTER: That is a question that I could not answer now.
      Mr. SHINWELL: When the right hon. Gentleman speaks of the pound for pound, is he taking account of gifts to the Lord Mayor's Fund in kind or merely cash payments?
      The PRIME MINISTER: I think cash payments. That again is a question that can be raised so much better in debate.
      Mr. MacDONALD: May I have a reply to my question? Has the Government any idea as to the time of day when this Vote will be put down?
      The PRIME MINISTER: I can tell the right hon. Gentleman frankly what is in my mind though we have not yet had time to consult him. It is important that the Estimates should come before the House. We might take the Committee stage formally on Wednesday and give the whole of Thursday to the Report stage. That is the day on which we are at present proposing to adjourn.
      Mr. MacDONALD: Then that would mean that, instead of having a debate on the Adjournment of the House, when some very important questions must be raised, the whole of Thursday is to be given to the discussion of this matter Why not have the debate on Wednesday?
      Mr. ERNEST BROWN: Is the Prime Minister aware that his answer will cause great disappointment in other distressed areas? We are reluctant to interfere at all with the distress in the mining areas, but, on Thursday, on the Adjournment, a number of Members for other distressed areas, not affected by the mining situation, will desire to raise questions as to the unemployed in their areas—such as Leith, Middlesbrough and places of that kind.
      HON. MEMBERS: And Lancashire!
      Mr. BATEY: Did the Prime Minister in coming to the decision to have a pound for pound policy take into consideration
      2612
      that we have no less than 300,000 miners out of employment, and that a grant of £150,000 is altogether inadequate, and will he not consider adopting, instead of a pound for pound policy, a £10 to £1 policy?
      Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: In announcing a pound for pound policy, will the Prime Minister take into account the fact that there are other organisations, notably the Society of Friends, which have also done very important work; and can he see his way to considering some grant to other organisations, in addition to that given to the Lord Mayor's Fund?
      The PRIME MINISTER: It is extremely difficult to carry this matter any further by question and answer. The obvious remedy is, I think, to have all the accounts brought into one Fund.
      Mr. J. BAKER: Do I understand from the right hon. Gentleman's statement that the Government have not taken into consideration the distress existing in areas where the major portion of the community have been engaged in iron and steel works which are now closed down, and that these men have been out of work for years and have no means of subsistence other than public funds?
      Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Will the Prime Minister, in allotting a day for the discussion of this very important matter, do so in such a way as not to deprive Members of the House of their legitimate and traditional opportunity of discussing other urgent matters on the Adjournment?
      The PRIME MINISTER: We are doing our very best to get the Estimates ready for the House before we separate, and it is not an easy matter to do so. Of course, we shall try to arrange matters to the satisfaction of the House as far as we can. I understood that this matter of the distressed areas was by far the most important issue which hon. Members wished to raise. We shall try to make such arrangements as we can.
      Mr. MacDONALD: In view of the announcement of business for Wednesday, will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it would not be a simple matter to change the Wednesday business and substitute this extraordinarily important business?
      The PRIME MINISTER: With every desire, as I have tried to show, to meet the right hon. Gentleman, I really cannot carry the matter further across the Table at this moment.

      TRANSFER OF WORKERS.
      Mr. KELLYasked the Minister of Labour the number of men, women and juveniles transferred from distressed areas to occupations in the London area; and was any portion of the cost of transfer borne from the funds raised for helping the people in distressed areas?
      Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: The numbers of direct transfers through the Employment Exchanges from the depressed areas to occupations in the Greater London area have been:

      Men (since the end of August), about 2,000;

      Juveniles (since 17th February), about 600.

      I have no separate record of the number of women so transferred. No part of the cost of fares is borne out, of the funds to which the hon. Member refers.
      Lieut.-Colonel LAMBERT WARD: Is there any truth in the rumour that a firm in London has already found employment for 600 transferred miners from distressed areas?
      Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: No, Sir, like many rumours, that is incorrect. The figure instead of being 600 is, I believe, six.

    ANGLO-RUSSIAN RELATIONS.
    Mr. PONSONBYasked the Prime Minister if his attention has been drawn to a speech delivered in Moscow on the 11th December by Mr. Litvinov dealing with the foreign policy of the Soviet Government, in which acceptance of the principle of non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries was stated as the base of existing trading and diplomatic relations between Russia and other countries; and whether His Majesty's Government would he prepared to consider a resumption of diplomatic and trade relations with the Soviet Government on the basis of a guarantee that the establishment of such relations would carry with it the strict-
    2614
    est observance of the principle of noninterference in the internal affairs of this country?
    Mr. WELLOCKasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered the statement made by Mr. Litvinov on Tuesday last regarding economic relations between this country and Russia; and whether His Majesty's Government is now prepared to make such a statement in reply as will lead to improved trade relations between the two countries?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Austen Chamberlain): I have been asked to reply to these questions. I would refer the hon. Members to the Prime Minister's speech at the Guildhall on the 9th November, 1927, wherein were set forth the conditions on which His Majesty's Government are prepared to resume relations with Russia. His Majesty's Government do not consider that Monsieur Litvinoff's speech in any way alters the situation.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman first of all, if it is usual to answer a, question by referring to a speech made on s. private occasion in the City of London and not in this House, and secondly, whether, seeing that. we took the initiative in rupturing relations, it is not on our initiative that a start should be made to mend them?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I have frequently heard answers to questions given in a similar form to that which I gave to-day, but I have myself already repeated in the House the exact words used by the Prime Minister on that occasion, and I could have referred the hon. and gallant Gentleman to my answer quoting those words had it been necessary. As regards the other points, His Majesty's Government have stated the conditions on which we shall be ready to resume negotiations, but those conditions have not yet been fulfilled.
    Mr. TAYLOR: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether the recognition of Russia's liability for debts and compensation on the basis of the last article of the Trade Agreement of 1921 would be an acceptable basis for the beginning of negotiations providing a cate-

    2615
    gorical undertaking was given with regard to propaganda?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Sir, I think the first and most essential thing is that we should not merely have a categorical undertaking such as we had before about propaganda but proof that that undertaking is being kept.
    Mr. TAYLOR: Could the right hon. Gentleman state what proof would be satisfactory to His Majesty's Government?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: The complete cessation of the activities of which we have reason to complain.
    Mr. THURTLE: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how the good faith of an undertaking can be put to the test until the relations are resumed?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, when the activities of which we complain cease, and then we can consider the resumption of relations.

    CLUBS, GLASGOW (REGISTRATION.)
    Major BROUN-LINDSAYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that in Whiteinch Ward, Glasgow, five clubs have been registered since the adoption by the electors of that ward of the no-licence resolution under the Temperance (Scotland) Act, 1913; that these clubs are located in premises which, before the adoption of the no-licence resolution, were occupied as public houses; and, in view of the expressed wishes of the electors and the intention of the Legislature in providing means for the control by the electors in local areas of the sale, by retail, of intoxicating liquors therein, whether he proposes to take steps to prohibit the registration of clubs in areas which have adopted the no-licence resolution and to extend the grounds of objection to the initial, grant of certificates of registration of clubs in Scotland?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): I am aware of the position in the ward referred to. I can hold out no prospect of legislation in the immediate future for the purposes mentioned.

    FRENCH FOREIGN LEGION (BRITISH SUBJECTS).
    Mr. WELLOCKasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is able to state the number of British subjects at present serving in the French Foreign Legion: and if there are any other countries whose army contains Similar unit?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. I believe that one other country has a Foreign Legion.

    LEAGUE OF NATIONS (BOLIVIA AND PARAGUAY).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether replies have been received from the Governments of Bolivia and Paraguay in answer to the resolution of the Council of the League of Nations of the 11th of December communicated to them, in which the two States between whom the dispute is threatened were warned that they had solemnly pledged themselves to seek the solution of disputes by pacific means; if so, what is the nature of these replies; and whether any further action is contemplated by the Council of the League?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and the Council has addressed a further communication to each of the Governments. As the reading of this correspondence would occupy much time, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, cause it to be printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Can I have an answer to the last part of the question?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I think the material which I shall have printed will give the answer. The President of the Council undertook to watch the progress of events, with the assistance of the Secretary-General, and, if necessary, to summon a Council meeting.
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the League of Nations has any jurisdiction whatever in any part of America, in view of the provisions of the Monroe doctrine?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir. There are many Clauses in the League Covenant which enjoin upon the Council the duty of offering its friendly offices, and none which dispenses them from that duty, and I do not think the action of the Council can be thought in any quarter to raise or challenge for a moment the question of the Monroe doctrine.
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: In view of the fact that the United States is not a party to the Covenant of the League of Nations, if anything transpires in any part of America, is it not open to the United States to say that they have a right to object to any proceedings, and to veto them if necessary?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think that the hon. Member's question can be taken as a fair interpretation of American policy or of the Monroe doctrine. I deprecate the putting of these questions, and I am certain that nothing that the League will do is likely to give offence in the United States.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: In view of these answers, may we take it that His Majesty's Government, as one of the State members of the League, is taking this dispute seriously, although it is in a remote part of the world like the centre of South America, and using its utmost endeavours to exercise its offices for peace?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: His Majesty's Government were parties to the different decisions taken by the Council of the League.
    Following is the correspondence
    "The Council of the League of Nations, meeting at Lugano for its fifty-third session, expresses its full conviction that the incidents which have occurred between two members of the League of Nations will not become more serious. It does not doubt that the two States, which by signing the covenant have solemnly pledged themselves to seek by pacific means the solution of disputes arising between them, will have recourse to such methods as would he in conformity with their international obligations and would appear in the actual circumstances to he the most likely to ensure, together with the maintenance of peace, the settlement of their dispute."
    The reply of Paraguay to the Council's telegram runs as follows:
    "I have the honour to reply to your telegram of yesterday, which furnishes proof
    2618
    of the lofty spirit of peace governing the deliberations of the Council for whom you are authorised to speak. My government has pleasure in informing you that it is animated with the same spirit, and that Paraguay, strong in the justice of her case, will accept and faithfully fulfil her international obligations. For this reason she asked for the summoning of the commission provided for in the treaty of 3rd May, 1923, and the purpose of which is to avoid conflicts between American states. Bolivia refused to participate in this procedure, which would have established the truth and determined the question of responsibility, basing her refusal on the mere statement of her alleged grievances. Paraguay does not refuse any conciliation procedure for the settlement of her disputes, still less the procedure laid down in conventions to which she has given her solemn acceptance."
    The reply of Bolivia runs as follows:
    "I have the honour to refer to the resolution forwarded to me by Your Excellency in which the Council of the League of Nations recommends and hopes that the incidents which have occurred between this country and Paraguay will not become serious and in which Your Excellency also suggests, with characteristic wisdom, that the parties will continue to act in a peaceful manner, in conformity with the obligations entered into by the States signatories of the covenant. The covenant of the League and Your Excellency may rest assured that Bolivia will not depart from the principles and obligations contained in the covenant of the League. From the report submitted by Bolivia to the League, the Council will be able to ascertain the antecedents of the question at issue with Paraguay and how a violent aggression was committed by that country against the territory and sovereignty of Bolivia, a small garrison being detroyed by much superior forces, 20 soldiers and two officers being killed, their dwellings being set on fire and the remainder of the garrison being taken prisoners. Paraguay has entered into obligations with Bolivia to submit their differences to judicial arbitration to determine the zone of arbitration and to settle their various disputes by peaceful means. Nevertheless, by an inexcusable surprise blow and in contradiction with the stipulations of articles 10 and 13 of the covenant of the League Paraguay has committed an aggression which we solemnly denounce to the Council, confirming our previous denunciation, and we declare that Bolivia has no alternative hut to demand the satisfactions which are due in such cases and to take military measures of a defensive character to safeguard her security because Paraguay, having concentrated her forces and advanced her general staff to points very close to the lines of contact of the military posts of the two countries, it is quite possible that further encounters may take place with which my government must be prepared to deal. Until the satisfaction

    2619
    due by Paraguay has been given, it does not seem possible to my government to allay the excitement of public opinion sufficiently to permit the resumption of peaceful negotiations. I have no doubt that the Council with its unfailing judgment will recognise the justice and sincerity of these explanations, and will take note of my government's declaration of its intention to act on the Council's recommendations and to observe the stipulations of the covenant. But Bolivia cannot agree that under cover of conciliation proceedings the agreement provided for judicial arbitration on a concrete and definite basis should be invoked in order to settle the substance of the dispute or that an attempt should be made to evade the obligation to provide the just satisfaction prescribed by international law and practice of such cases."
    In taking act of the communications of the two governments the Council has addressed to them the following further message to Bolivia:
    "The Council has taken cognizance of the telegram of 12th December addressed to it by the Minister of Bolivia in Paris and communicating in the name of his Government a detailed statement of the events leading up to the dispute between Bolivia and Paraguay. The Council has also taken act of the telegram of 14th December, signed by the President and the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Bolivia. This telegram contains in particular the following declaraton.
    The Council of the League may rest assured that Bolivia will not depart from the principle and obligations contained in the covenant of the League.'
    The Council has studied with the closest attention the statement of your Government's point of view. It is glad to find this proof of the attachment of Bolivia to the principles and obligations of the covenant and is thereby led to hope that the parties will carefully avoid all acts which could make it more difficult to ensure a pacific solution. In closing to-day its fifty-third ordinary session at Lugano it expresses its firm conviction that the obligations of the covenant will be fulfilled. It recalls that if there should arise between two members of the League of Nations a dispute likely to lead to a rupture, they cannot, without breaking their international engagements and in particular the stipulations of article 12 of the covenant, fail to have recourse by one method or another, to one of the procedures for pacific settlement provided for in the covenant. It also considers it useful to draw attention to the fact that the covenant mentions amongst other things disputes as to the existence of any fact which if established would constitute a breach of any international obligation or as to the extent and nature of the reparation to be made for any such breach '. The Council would insist on the fact that its experience suggests the great importance of any measures of self-defence
    2620
    being carefully limited to those which can neither be interpreted as aggressive by the other country or as such as to involve the risk of direct contact between troops, which would increase the gravity of the situation and render more difficult the efforts which are at present being made for the maintenance of peace. The Council has instructed me as its President for the time being to follow events, in consultation if necessary with my colleagues through the Secretary General of the League. I further have the honour to communicate to you for information the telegram which I have received from the Paraguayan Government." (Telegram already reproduced.)
    Here ends telegram to Bolivia.
    The telegram to Paraguay begins:
    "The Council has taken cognizance of the letter addressed to it on 11th December, for its information by the Charge d'Affaires of Paraguay in Paris on the subject of the dispute which has arisen between the Republics of Paraguay and Bolivia. The Council has also taken act of your telegram of 12th December, which concludes by the following declaration: Paraguay does not refuse any conciliation procedure for the settlement of her disputes, still less the procedure laid down in conventions to which she has given her solemn acceptance.' The Council is glad to find this proof of the attachment of Paraguay to the principles and obligations of the covenant and is thereby led to hope that the parties will carefully avoid all acts which could make it more difficult to ensure a pacific solution. In closing to-day its fifty-third ordinary session at Lugano it expresses its firm conviction that the obligations of the covenant. will be fulfilled. It recalls that if there should arise between two members of the League of Nations a dispute likely to lead to a rupture, they cannot, without breaking their international engagements and in particular the stipulations of article 12 of the covenant, fail to have recourse by one method or another, to one of the procedures for pacific settlement provided for in the covenant. It also considers it useful to draw attention to the fact that the covenant mentions amongst other things disputes as to the existence of any fact which it is established would constitute a breach of any international obligation or as to the extent and nature of the reparation to be made for any such breach.' The Council would insist on the fact that its experience suggests the great importance of any measures of self-defence being carefully limited to those which can neither be interpreted as aggressive by the other country or as such as to involve the risk of direct contact between troops, which would increase the gravity of the situation and render more difficult the efforts which are at present being made for the maintenance of peace. The Council has instructed me as its President for the time being to follow events, in consultation if necessary with my colleagues through the Ssecretary General of the League. I further have the honour to communicate to you for

    2621
    information the telegram which I have received from the Bolivian Government." (Telegram already reproduced above.)
    Here ends the telegram to Paraguay

    CHINA.
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is now in a position to make an announcement regarding an agreement between this country and China as a result of the recent negotiations?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: The negotiations are still proceeding, and I am not yet in a position to make any announcement.

    BRITISH ARMY (APPLICATION FOR DISCHARGE).
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that an application for release from the Army on compassionate grounds was made in July, 1928, for Private D. Martin, No. 1,041, Machine Gun Group, 1st Battalion Black Watch, Gangoru Camp, Dehra Dim, Northern Province, India; that all regulations have been complied with; and whether he can state what action he is taking in the matter?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): I assume that the application to which the hen. Member refers has been made direct to the authorities in India since no such request has, so far as I can ascertain, been received by the military authorities at home. The decision on applications of this kind rests with the Brigade Commander and I have no information what the decision has been in this case.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Since it has taken such a long time to get any decision, can the right hon. Gentleman find out the cause of the delay, and what the decision really is?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: It does not follow that there has been any delay. I expect the decision has been given in India.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Seeing that the decision has been made since the request was sent from this country, surely, even as a
    2622
    matter of courtesy, some decision might be sent to them to let them know what has been arrived at.
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: If the hon. Member will look at my answer, he will find that we have heard nothing of it in this country.

    LOTTERIES, WHIST DRIVES, AND COMPETITIONS.
    Mr. R. MORRISONasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the recent legal decision with respect to football coupons and of the uncertainty which exists with regard to the legality of crossword puzzles, whist drives, raffles, and other forms of recreation, he will set up a committee to inquire and report what steps are necessary to bring the law into conformity with modern requirements?
    Sir V. HENDERSON: The matters referred to are of such scope and variety that the law as to them can hardly be simple, but I do not think the question of legality is left in a state of undue uncertainty and, until there is at least a measure of unanimity as to the nature of modern requirements in the matter, my right hon. Friend doubts whether any Committee could usefully address itself to the task of suggesting how the law could be brought into conformity therewith.
    Mr. MORRISON: Has the hon. Member no suggestion to make in order to deal with the present confusion?
    Sir V. HENDERSON: Not at the moment.
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: Does the hon. Member realise that some forms of this practice come within the law and others which appear to be far more injurious escape entirely?
    Sir V. HENDERSON: That, again, is a matter of opinion.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the hon. Member satisfied with the present state of affairs by which Derby sweeps for thousands of pounds are carried on without any interference, and these poor men's amusements are stopped?
    Sir V. HENDERSON: The state of the law seldom satisfies everybody.

    PETROL DUTY.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount of revenue that has so far been obtained to the nearest available date from the petrol tax imposed in his last Budget?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel): Up to 30th November, the aggregate yield of the tax was in round figures £8,809,000.

    POOR LAW (CASUAL WARDS).
    Sir ROBERT THOMASasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that distress is being caused to genuine itinerant seekers after work, as distinct from habitual vagrants, by the policy of his department in closing casual wards; that the resulting lack of accommodation and the overcrowding of the casual wards which remain are leading to an increase in window breaking, petty larcenies, and such minor offences; and whether it is his intention to suspend this policy?
    Sir K. WOOD: My right hon. Friend does not consent to the closing of casual wards unless he is satisfied that they are unnecessary and that their closing will not lead to hardship. In regard to the second part of the question my right hon. Friend is not aware that there has been any increase of minor offences or that the incidence of such offences is affected by the closing of unnecessary casual wards.

    CATERING TRADES (WAGES).
    Mr. STEPHEN (for Mr. BUCHANAN)asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that wages and hours in the catering trades are at present both low and long, and that this particularly applies to young women; and if he will consider taking steps to bring them under the operation of the Trade Boards Act?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I cannot add to the reply which I gave to a question on this subject by my hon. Friend the Member for the Sutton division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) on 8th November, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Am I to take it that the Minister of Labour is not going to do anything on behalf of these men?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I propose to do exactly what is indicated in that answer.

    FACTORIES ACT (PROSECUTION, WARRINGTON).
    Mr. WALTER BAKER (for Mr. W. THORNE)asked the Home Secretary whether he has received a Report from His Majesty's inspector of factories for the Warrington area in connection with the recent prosecution of a firm for violating the Factories Act by employing boys under the age of 16 years after 8 p.m.: what is the number of times the firm has been summoned by the factory inspector; and whether there are any special Home Office orders or regulations in operation affecting firms which are constantly disregarding the Factories Acts?
    Sir V. HENDERSON: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend has received a report on this case and finds that in addition to being prosecuted as mentioned in the question the firm were prosecuted and convicted in 1926 and 1921 for failure to fence machinery, and in 1915 for illegal employment of young persons. There are no Orders or Regulations of the kind referred to by the hon. Member, but provision is made in the Act itself for increased penalties in cases where a second or subsequent conviction takes place within two years from the last conviction for the same offence.
    Mr. MACKINDER: May I ask whether these increased penalties were imposed?
    Sir V. HENDERSON: That is a matter for the Courts.
    Mr. KELLY: May I ask whether in these cases there is more frequent inspection after prosecution?
    Sir V. HENDERSON: There is always inspection after prosecution to see that what was wrong has been put right.
    Mr. RENNIE SMITH: In view of these repeated offences, will the Under-Secretary consider the question of taking over these factories?

    JAMAICA (SUGAR INDUSTRY).
    Mr. HURDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received an official report from Cuba that more than 50,000 Jamaican labourers, usually employed in the sugar industry, are out of work and in distress: and what steps are being taken in their interest?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: As the answer is rather long, I will, with the hon. Member's consent, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    It is estimated that about 50,000 Jamaicans are employed for sugar-cane cutting in Cuba. Cutting usually lasts about four months and begins in December or January. A period of unemployment is the natural corollary of this seasonal demand for labour. While labourers often find other employment during the slack period His Majesty's Minister reports that this year a, larger number than usual are unemployed owing to the Cuban Government's recent restrictions on the sugar crop and the diminution of industrial and commercial activity following the low price of sugar. In consequence Jamaicans in Cuba have suffered a good deal of hardship and distress. Their interests, are, however, especially well looked after owing to the fact that the Jamaica Government provides a special official on the staff of His Majesty's Minister, who, under the latter's direction, devotes his whole time to the Jamaican labourers' affairs.
    The labourers have been encouraged and assisted as far as possible this year to seek work elsewhere and to get temporary employment in Cuba, and a considerable number have been repatriated in cases of destitution and illness and assistance has been rendered them in collecting wages and insurance claims and in other ways. When Jamaicans leave Jamaica they have to make a deposit with the Jamaica Government sufficient to cover the cost of repatriation, but they
    are not permitted to make use of this except in case of urgent distress. His Majesty's Minister considers that conditions will improve considerably when cutting recommences this month, particularly as the crop will no longer be subject to Government restriction. He regards the fact that a great number of Jamaicans constantly go back to Jamaica after cane cutting and then return to Cuba as in itself an indication that on the whole they are satisfied with conditions in that country.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. MacDONALD: I will put two questions at the same time. Supposing the Prime Minister gets the Eleven o'clock Rule suspended to-day, what business does he propose to take? The second question is: When is it proposed that the House should resume after the Christmas Recess?
The PRIME MINISTER: Perhaps it is not altogether by chance that the two questions have been put together. We hope to get. Orders 4, 5, 6 and 7 to-night. If we make reasonable progress, we hope, very much, that it will not be necessary to call the House together until 22nd January.
Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: In view of the great urgency of the matters which we have to discuss in the next few days, would it not be just as well to curtail the Christmas Recess?
The PRIME MINISTER: I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that, if any curtailment is necessary, I shall do it.
Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: What business will be taken on the resumption of the House?
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from -the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 193; Noes. 100.

Division No. 70.]

AYES.

[4.50 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Brigge, J. Harold

Alnsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Briscoe, Richard George

Albery, Irving James

Berry, sir George

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Amery, Fit. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Buchan, John

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Bowyer, Capt. O. E. W.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Astor, Viscountess

Brass, Captain w.

Campbell, E. T.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Cayzer, Sir c. (Chester, City)

Harrison, G. J. C.

Preston, William

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Hartington, Marquess of

Price, Major C. W. M.

Cecil, Rt Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Haslam, Henry C.

Ramsden, E.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm.,W.)

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Rhys Hon. C. A. U.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Christie, J. A.

Hilton. Cecil

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. sir S. J. G.

Rye, F. G.

Clayton, G. C.

Holt, Captain H. P.

Salmon, Major I.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Fernham)

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

Sandon, Lord

Cooper, A. Duff

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Savery, S. S.

Crookehank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Lesile

Crookshank.Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro)

Hurd, Percy A.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Hurst, Gerald B.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Insklp, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Smithers, Waldron

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Iveagh, Countess of

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

King, Commodore Henry Douglas

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Dawson, Sir Philip

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Tasker, R. Inigo.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Lister, Cunliffe., Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Templeton, W. P.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Locker Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Looker, Herbert William

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston.s.-M.)

Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

Tinne, J. A.

Erskine. James Malcolm Montelth

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Everard, W. Lindsay

Macmillan, Captain H.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Mac Robert, Alexander M.

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

Vaughan-Morgan. Col. K. P.

Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Ford, Sir P. J.

Malone. Major P. B.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Margesson, Captain D.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Forrest, W.

Marriott. Sir J. A. R.

Wayland, Sir William A.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Walls, S. R.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Monsell. Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Ganzonl, Sir John

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Winby, Colonel L. P.

Gates, Percy

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Nelson, Sir Frank

Withers, John James

Goff, Sir Park

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wolmer, Viscount

Grant. Sir J. A.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

Womersley. W. J

Grattan- Doyle, Sir N.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Oakley, T.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High peak)

Hacking, Douglas H.

Penny, Frederick George

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Hall. Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Hamilton, Sir George

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hammersiey, S. S.

Peto, G. (Somereet. Frome)

Major Sir George Hennessy and

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Power, Sir John Cecil

Major Sir William Cope.

Harland, A.

Pownall, Sir Assheton

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File. West)

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Lansbury, George

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Glbbins. Joseph

Lawrence, Susan

Baker, Walter

Gillett, George M.

Lawson, John James

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Lowth, T.

Barf, J.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Lunn, William

Batey, Joseph

Grenfell. D. R. (Glamorgan)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Griffith, F. Kingsley

Mackinder. W.

Bellamy, A.

Grundy, T. W.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Bondfield, Margaret

Hall, F. (York., W.R., Normanton)

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hall. G. H (Merthyr Tydvil)

March, S.

Briant, Frank

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Maxton, James

Broad, F. A.

Hardle, George D.

Montague, Frederick

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Harris, Percy A.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Buxton. Rt. Hon. Noel

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Naylor, T. E.

Charleton, H. C.

Hirst, G. H.

Oliver. George Harold

Cluse, W. S.

Hirst. W. (Bradford. South)

Owen, Major G.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Hutchison. Sir Robert (Montrose)

Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan)

Dalton, Hugh

Jenkins. W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Potts, John S.

Day, Harry

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich)

Dennison, R,

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Dunnico, H.

Kelly, W. T.

Scurr, John

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Kennedy, T.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

2628

2629

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Thurtle, Ernest

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

Shinwell, E.

Tomlinson, R. P.

Wellock, Wilfred

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Townend, A. E.

Westwood, J.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Viant, S. P.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Wallhead, Richard C.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Stamford. T. W.

Walsh, Rt. Hon Stephen

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Stephen, Campbell

Warns, 6. H.

Wright, W.

Taylor, R. A.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Paling.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Indian Affairs,—That they have appointed a Committee consisting of eleven Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons as a Standing Joint Committee on Indian Affairs, and request the Commons to appoint an equal number of their Members to be joined with the said Lords.
Consolidation Bills,—That they have appointed a Committee consisting of five Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons to consider all Consolidation Bills, which are not Private Bills, in the present Session, and request the Commons to appoint an equal number of their Members to be joined with the said Lords.

CIVIL ESTIMATES (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1928).
Estimate presented—of a further sum required to be voted for the service of the year ending 31st March, 1929 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.
  Considered in Committee. [Progress, 13 th December.]
  [SECOND ALLOTTED DAY.]
  [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.

    CLAUSE 5.—(Public Assistance Committee.)
    Mr. LANSBURY: I beg to move, in page 4, line 38, to leave out from the first word "the" to the end of the Clause, and to add instead thereof the words:
    "delegation of the functions so transferred to appropriate committees of the council, with or without any restrictions or conditions as the council think fit, except the power of raising a rate or borrowing money."
    I call attention to the last words of the Amendment so as to save any sort of discussion as to this being a back-door method of giving small bodies of people the right to spend other people's money. We have got beyond that, and we all agree, and always have agreed, that those who find the money must in the end determine the policy. With that limitation, we wish to get rid of all the rest of the Clause which provides for the setting up of certain committees to do certain work, and we want, instead, that similar duties shall be carried out by similar committees. If that be not done, it will be possible for certain members of a family to be dealt with by a committee under the public assistance committee and under the Poor Law, and for other members of the family to be relieved under the present provisions of public health and other Acts which are administered by the county councils and town councils through-out the country. There seems to me to be no reason, now that we are making this very great change, why the local education authority, when it finds any child in desperate need, or not necessarily desperate, but in need of food, clothing and other necessaries of life, should provide, say, meals through the education committee, and then some other committee be called upon to supply the other needs.
    There may be, of course, a thorough objection by old-fashioned economists of the Manchester school to giving the child anything, but that is not under argu-
    2644
    ment this afternoon. What is under argument is whether, with the law as it is at present, the provision for the needs of the child shall he supplied only by one committee of the one authority or by two or three committees. I do not think that this Committee realises how many inspectors, how many doctors and how many different authorities may, in present circumstances deal with one family, how many people are called upon to visit one family in the case of destitution or sickness. The school doctor has the right, and the school district officer has the right to visit and take certain action in the case of the child who is sick and in need of food, and if the Bill now before the House becomes an Act, the school authority will be able to provide boots for the child, and, if the child needs clothing as well as boots, another committee of the same public authority will be called upon to supply the clothes. Also, if the child is in need of medical attention, it may very well be that the school doctor will deal with the child in the school and then, if it must have institutional treatment, and the local authority has not got an ordinary municipal hospital, but only a Poor Law institution, the child must go to the Poor Law institution for further treatment. That seems to me to be quite absurd, and something that ought not to persist.
    It is in order to obviate that kind of thing that I am moving the Amendment. It is in order, too, to deal with this kind of situation. A woman may get maternity treatment through the local health authority, and it may very well be that when she is through her confinement, she will need something more than at present the public health authority gives her or considers it its duty to give her. It is quite absurd that, during the period of her confinement, the woman should not be treated as a pauper, and then immediately afterwards, because of the same necessity of assistance from the public authority, she should be treated as a pauper, and have to go to another committee. I would submit that the fact that you have to employ so many overlapping committees and overlapping officials to inquire into a case, is a great hardship to the poor. When the woman goes to a maternity centre, or goes to

    2645
    the public health authority, when she comes before the appropriate committee she is treated not at all in the same manner as under the Poor Law. I am not now wanting to say any hard words about any Poor Law official or anyone else. They have to administer the law, and the Poor Law can only be administered according to the orders laid down by the Ministry and by the law itself, and very considerable investigation into the means, etc., of the person concerned has to take place. In the case of an infant and child welfare centre, or a maternity centre there is an entirely different spirit.
    Many members of this Committee have had as much experience as I have had in these matters, and they know perfectly well that to go before a relieving officer and a relief committee and to go before a maternity and child welfare committee, are entirely different things, though there is no reason in logic why there should be any differentiation. Then there may also be this ridiculous position, that the father of the family, together with a certain number of the children, may be obliged to get Poor Law relief. It may be that a man is in the workhouse and his wife is in the public health hospital or getting assistance through the maternity centre. There, again, it seems quite ludicrous that there should be that difference in status as between the man and his wife. I could mutiply these cases very considerably, but I am quite certain that everyone who has experience will agree with me that now we are handing over these services to the local authorities, we ought to deal with them, not from the point of view of destitution, but from the point of view of preventing destitution.
    That brings me to the last thing I want to say. If you hand these duties to the public assistance committee set up to deal with destitution under the Poor Law, the spirit and, indeed, the practice behind that law is that you shall not take any account of individuals until they are destitute, and that is what is so palpable to-day throughout the country. The Poor Law is not expected to deal with people until they are destitute. It would be the business of the committees to which we propose that these duties should be transferred to prevent destitution, just as it is their business to prevent the spread of
    2646
    infectious disease. The principle we want carried through is that of preventing people falling into the destitute condition. In the elementary day school, it is the business of the teachers, if they find a child is ailing, and is beginning to be unable to take advantage of the facilities of education, to call the attention of the proper authority to prevent that child falling really into sickness and becoming very ill, and the school doctor, the school nurses and others are called in. We want that same principle to apply to all people who are obliged to come for public assistance. I repeat that it is not a question here of discussing the principle of whether public assistance is right or wrong. Parliament has long ago decided that you have to deal with people under certain conditions, and we want them dealt with under the latest principle that has been adopted by the House during the last few years. We want to get rid of the old pernicious principle of leaving people to become destitute. We want to deal with destitution on the same principle as public health is dealt with to-day.
    Miss LAWRENCE: It is an extra ordinary thing that at this time of day we should still be perpetuating a mixed system to deal with all classes of destitution. This subject has had a very long history. We had the Poor Law Commission of 1909, the Maclean Committee which reported in 1918, the proposals of the Minister of Health in 1925 and now we have this proposal before us. One thing on which all Poor Law reformers have agreed ever since 1909 has been the need for classification of these various duties under the administration of the Poor Law. The authors of that report drew a very sharp line between destitution and unemployment. I will not go through the Majority and Minority proposals in the Report of 1909, but I want to draw the attention of this Committee to the fact that the Maclean Committee in reviewing the matter, like every other body of responsible persons who have touched the subject, pointed out the evils of dealing with those who were not fully able to deal with themselves under half a dozen different Statutes. They pointed out how the sick and infirm and the children in schools were dealt with by different methods; they pointed out the overlapping with regard to old age pensions, poor relief and so forth; and,

    2647
    above all, they pointed out the very absurd thing which occurred when you mixed up unemployment and ordinary destitution.
    This line of action is common to all sorts of persons who consider the question of the Poor Law, and in the original provisions of the Minister of Health he was fully aware of the distinction necessary to be made between home assistance and unemployment. In the original proposal he did look at the question of unemployment and proposed that Poor Law relief should be correlated with unemployment assistance. He was, therefore, proceeding on the traditional lines, though not quite as well as Poor Law reformers would have wished. Then there came a sudden change over his policy, and in Circular 805, issued to the Poor Law authorities, he said:
    "The Minister has come to the conclusion that it is unnecessary to retain in any new Bill the original proposal to improve the co-ordination of public assistance by correlating"
    unemployment benefit and Poor Law relief; therefore any attempt at doing in this matter what every Committee had recommended was dropped. Now we are back again at the one thing that every responsible person who has dealt with the Poor Law was objecting to, namely, the want of classification and the overlapping and dealing with one case under a dozen different Statutes.
    This is a question of machinery. I dare say I shall disagree a great deal with the use to which the machinery is put, but the fact is that the Maclean Committee recommended not merely a public assistance committee but an unemployment and training committee. This proposal was flirted with by the Minister and then dropped; and that is the outstanding fault of the Bill now before us. We do not want to leave unemployment under the Poor Law—we have another scheme, and we want to take it away from the local authorities—but the school of thought which believes that the relief of the unemployed should be carried on under the Poor Law has always also said that it should be by means of a separate committee in close connection with training and employment.
    Now, after 1909, after 1918, after 1925, we have the Minister abandoning all
    2648
    attempts to regulate and give order to this matter. This is not even a reform of machinery it makes the machine worse in many respects, and it does not deal with the cardinal sin of the Poor Law, which is want of classification. It is a good many months ago that the Minister gave an answer to the effect that 121 unions gave no relief on account of the able-bodied unemployed. I have never heard a word of deprecation from the officials of the Ministry of Health towards those unions where no relief is given to the unemployed, and I have seriously at the back of my mind the suspicion that what this means is that the old Order of 1911 is going to be put in full force, and that there is no special provision for relief for the able-bodied unemployed, because the increasing tendency of the Poor Law is to cast them out altogether and revert to the state of affairs where out-relief to the able bodied did not exist. For these two reasons, because it is bad business and bad classification, and because of the suspicion that is in my mind, I want to support the Amendment.
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Chamberlain): I have listened to the two speeches which have been delivered upon this Amendment, and unless I have completely misunderstood them, they appear to me to have been going over exactly the same ground that we covered when we were dealing with Clause 4. The point appears to me to be exactly the same, and the answer I must give to this Amendment is exactly the same answer that I gave on that occasion. It is not that there is a difference of policy between us, it is not that the Government intend to encourage the local authorities to keep all the transferred functions for ever under the public assistance committees; it is simply that it would be physically impossible, to begin with, to hand over to the appropriate committees, as is suggested, the various functions which are to be transferred. Take the case which the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) cited. He said, "Suppose you have a local authority which has no municipal or public hospital, but which has only a Poor Law institution." Well, there will be a great many local authorities in that position.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Surely the Poor Law hospital will be transferred to the council under the public health committee.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, I hope it will be, but it cannot be done on the day after this Bill becomes law.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Surely it can.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member must know that in order to make a proper scheme the new authority has got to sit down and consider all the institutions in the area, and it cannot make that survey and come to a conclusion and carry out the structural alterations which will be necessary in a day; it must have time. All that we are doing here is, in the first instance, to transfer these functions to the authority, and then the public assistance committee will have those functions transferred to it, and no doubt will make recommendations, but, after all, this administrative scheme is not a rigid thing, which, once made, will last for ever. There is ample power to modify schemes as and when it is possible and desirable to do so, and I must say that I think it is a little unreasonable, after what I said on Clause 4, when I made it clear that that was the view of the Government, and when I went so far as to say that I would, between then and the Report stage, put words in Clause 4 to make it clear that that was the policy of the Government, when I explained all that, and that it was merely physical reasons which prevented us from pushing the policy farther—I say it is a little unreasonable that we should have it all over again on this Clause, and I hope in the circumstances we may be allowed to proceed with something of greater substance.
    Miss LAWRENCE: The Minister's public assistance committee covers the same ground as the public assistance committee and training and unemployment committee of the Maclean Report. Will he put in words to provide that the scheme shall provide for both those things?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am not prepared to put in words to lay it down that the local authority must set up an unemployment and training committee. I have said before that I consider that the local authorities must be allowed to do their business in their own way.
    Mr. HARRIS: I do not pretend to deal with matters outside of London, because I find that my hands are quite full enough in looking after London local government, but I want to be quite clear as to the difference between London and other parts of the country in this respect. On Clause 15 the Minister of Health is himself moving an Amendment
    "for the reference or delegation by the London County Council to any committee of that council (including the public assistance committee) of any of the functions transferred to the council under this Part of this Act except the power of raising a rate or borrowing money."
    I suggest to the Minister that that Amendment, with the exception of the words in brackets, is very nearly equivalent to this Amendment. I am open to correction, but what I understand the London County Council want to avoid—and, to the credit of the right hon. Gentleman, he has given us this concession at the instigation of that council—and what I understand the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) wants to avoid is, that the public assistance committee should be the one channel through which all this new work should be delegated. That will not only lead to delay, but is bound to add to the cost, and lead to friction and irritation between the various committees. It might be interesting to read an extract from the report of the London County Council on this subject, which is very pertinent to the point made by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley. It says:
    "An arrangement of this kind under which the several committees concerned would be placed under the direction and control of another committee as regards specified functions is, so far as we are aware, without precedent in local government, and, in our opinion, would be open to grave objection on administrative grounds.
    The proposals in the Bill relating to the public assistance committee coupled with the obligation on the council to receive reports from that committee before dealing with such matters would create an administrative position which we particularly desired should be avoided, and strong representations on this point were made at the recent conference with the Minister of Health."
    To do the Minister credit, he has listened to those representations, and is himself fathering an Amendment, originally put on the Paper by my hon. Friend the Member for West Fulham (Sir C. Cobb). Much as I wish to fight London's battles,

    2651
    and to see efficient administration of these new powers in London, I do not see why these advantages should not be shared by the rest of the country. If the Minister is prepared to make this most reasonable concession for London, I cannot see why he cannot meet, at any rate halfway, the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley. In all the counties, all over the country, such things as the boarding out and the education of Poor Law children would automatically go to the education committee if left to themselves, but, as I understand it, if there is not an alteration in the Bill, they will automatically go to the public assistance committee, and then there will be a sort of battledore and shuttlecock between the two committees to decide which shall be responsible. If the Minister wishes to meet with immediate success for his machinery, it seems to me that something on the lines suggested by the Amendment now before the Committee and of the concession made to the London County Council should be done all over the country.
    Mr. SIDNEY WEBB: I am afraid that we are in a tangle here between the Minister's intentions and the words in the Bill or in the Amendment, as the case may be. On Clause 4, the Minister of Health made certain undertakings and said his intention was that when this Measure becomes law, after the necessary time has elapsed to allow the local authorities to make the required arrangements, everything that can be done for the children should be done by the committee administering the powers under the Education Acts, and that everything that is to be done for the sick, including maternity and old age, everything that requires nursing and medical treatment, should be done by the committee set up under the Public Health Acts. I understand that to be the intention of the Minister, hut it seems a little obscure whether that will be the actual result of the words as they now stand.
    The Minister has been good enough to say that he will consider what words he can insert in order to make it clear that this is his policy, but we have not seen those words. We have seen the concession which he has made to the London
    2652
    County Council, and that concession goes a long way. The Amendment which the Minister will move to Clause 15 will allow the London County Council to transfer to any of its Committees, any part of the functions which they have to perform, whether they are to be performed under the Poor Law or under the Education Acts or the Public Health Acts. That is to say, the whole of what has to be done for the children of school age, including what is now done under the Education Acts and what is being done under the Poor Law, it will be possible for the London County Council to delegate to its Education Committee. The Minister will perhaps be good enough to look into that to see if that is what is intended.
    At present, under the Poor Law authorities and the education authorities there are three codes of law. There is first what the local authority can do under the Education Act, secondly what can be done both under the Education Acts and under the Poor Law and thirdly, what can be done only under the Poor Law. These three functions, so the Minister agrees, are to be transferred in London to the Education Committee. Therefore, the Education Committee will be administering so far as children are concerned both Poor Law and the Education Acts. The Machinery of Government Committee laid it down as a proper classification of administration that everything relating to one set of persons should be dealt with together, and that various things to be done for the same set of persons should not be done by different authorities but by one authority only. Take the case of the sick. The London County Council will be able, under the Minister's Amendment, to delegate to the Public Health Committee not only all the functions which it exercises under the Public Health Act and similar Acts and those which it can perform both under the Poor Law and the Public Health Act but also all the functions to be exercised in regard to the sick and the infirm and the infants, which can at present be done only by the boards of guardians. The Minister, following out the principle of breaking up the Poor Law, rightly intends that these three sets of powers should be delegated to the Public Health Committee of the London County Council. As for the children, he intends that the transfer should be made to the Educa-

    2653
    tion Committee, and that the three sets of powers—education powers, double powers, and Poor Law Powers—should be delegated to it.
    We are asking that that same power should be given to the Town Council of Manchester, or the Town Council of Liverpool, or the County Councils of Lancashire or Kent or Essex, and that they should have freedom to refer to the appropriate committees everything that they are going to have power to do. We do not ask that they should be given further powers, but whatever powers they are given, they should be able to delegate everything relating to the children of school age to the education committee, and everything relating to the sick, to the health committee. I understand that to be the Minister's policy. The Amendment which the Minister proposes to move to Clause 15 is a great concession, but it does not appear in Clause 4. I am not suggesting that the Minister is likely to go back upon his agreement with the London County Council. It is the clearly expressed desire of the London County Council and is in accordance with the long string of authorities who since 1909, have recommended this course. I would remind the Minister that he accepted a Motion which I moved in this House in 1925, which distinctly said that all the functions with regard to the sick and infirm should be dealt with by the health committee and all the functions with regard to the children of school age should be dealt with by the education committee, and so on. All we are asking is that the same powers should be given to the Town Council of Liverpool and the Town Council of. Manchester with regard to this allocation to committees and that they should have the same freedom as is proposed to be given to the London County Council.
    As the Bill stands, the Town Council of Liverpool will not be able to transfer to the appropriate committee anything except two out of the three classes of powers; they will be able to refer to the health committee all their public health powers with regard to the sick, and refer under Clause 4, to that committee all the double powers that they will possess both under the Public Health Acts or under the Poor Law; but they will not be able to transfer to the appropriate com-
    2654
    mittee those powers with regard to the sick which they can exercise only as a Poor Law authority. They are bound to delegate all those powers which are not duplicated at present to the Public Assistance Committee, and that committee will accordingly be the old omnium gatherum, the mixed authority which deals with the sick, the tramp, the vagrant, the infant and the child of school age. They will have to deal with all these things together, and, except in regard to London, that is all that there is on the Paper with reference to the Minister's policy and intention.
    I cannot believe that it is the Minister's intention to deny to such authorities as those of Liverpool, Lancashire and the West Riding the freedom which is to be accorded to the London County Council. The right hon. Gentleman said he did not wish to prescribe to town councils to which committees they shall refer their work, and we ask that he should not prescribe to them the public assistance committee as a committee, to which must be delegated all this miscellaneous set of duties relating to different classes of work. There is one other matter. None of the local authorities will have an appropriate committee for dealing with the able-bodied. We want them, as the Maclean Committee wanted them, to have a committee for dealing with the unemployed, but that cannot be done under this Bill because their powers under the Unemployed Workmen Act will be taken from them. If they have no committee, and cannot have a committee for dealing with the unemployed, it means that the able-bodied unemployed must compulsorily be relegated to this omnium gatherum public assistance committee, and be dealt with along with tramps, the nursing mother, the poor widow, and other classes of persons. I ask the Minister to consider the policy of allowing local authorities to delegate their powers to whatever committee they think to be the appropriate committee, and also that they should be allowed to appoint an appropriate committee for dealing with the able-bodied unemployed.
    Mr. BECKETT: I am surprised that the Minister should have dealt with this Amendment as though it were of no importance. He gave a very flippant

    2655
    reply to it, and the only point which he made, or at any rate the only point which received any applause from his supporters, was his extravagant picture of the absurdity of the Opposition wanting to hand over all sorts of machinery and institutions on the appointed day at once to existing committees of the council. Whether we want to hand over the machinery and institutions to a committee on a certain day or not, the Bill provides for it. The point is not whether they have to be handed over; the point is whether they should be handed over to a new committee, as the Minister suggests in the Bill, or whether they should be handed over to committees which already have had some experience of handling the matters concerned, especially when, according to Clause 112, they are not to be handed over for six months after the appointed day in 1930. The one little point which the Minister succeeded in making in opposition to the Amendment, therefore, dwindles down to the fact that in two and a half years from now, after the appropriate local committee has had at least two years to deal with the matter, we propose to hand the duties over. If the Bill be understood as a whole, the point with which the Minister attempted to raise opposition to the Amendment falls in its appropriate place in the arguments for this Amendment.
    It is not an Amendment for which there can be any kind of party feeling; it is merely brought forward to enable the work, which every Member is agreed is necessary, to be done in a more humane and efficient way than we feel that it can be done under this Bill. Indeed, any Member of the Committee may well face with considerable fear and diffidence the idea that, after this Bill has come into force, and when the Poor Law and other functions mentioned in Clause 4 are handed over to the county councils, we are going to have unemployment, destitution, blind persons, mental deficiency, tubercular cases and the great problems of preventing destitution mixed up with the question of providing decent social services for the poor people. It will be a foolish and ridiculous thing to place all those matters in the hands of one committee, especially a committee which, if the Clause be not amended,
    2656
    will consist very largely of co-opted members.
    I would like to find words to express the human, psychological side of the effect which this is going to have. It is not just a matter of assigning a thing to one appropriate committee or another. Somebody said that after the Reformation all England was divided into appropriate committees by the bureaucrats. I do not know whether that is so. Personally, in my short public career I have served on so many appropriate committees that I sometimes think they ought all to be hanged by the neck. If we have all this allocation of services to appropriate and largely co-opted local committees, we are surrounding this problem with an entirely wrong atmosphere. I have been on a local authority, and I have been on a public health committee, and I know the attitude which is taken up the members. Within their limited powers and within their limited financial scope the members endeavour to make their clinics and their health services as efficient and effective as possible. Whatever their politics, when people get on to a committee dealing with one particular department of local service they are likely to become imbued with a spirit of healthy competition as between one committee and another and as between one locality and another; there is an air of pride, and a desire to see the health services or the mental deficiency service or the education service made as efficient as possible. But when you lump all these branches of work together, and have people dealing with lunatics one day, school children the next, expectant mothers the next, then destitute people, then unemployed people who are deserving, tramps and casuals who are on the road through ill-luck and tramps and casuals who are on the road through same unhappy or vicious streak in their temperaments, it is not in the nature of men and women, whatever their party or whatever their views, to take the same interest in their work. I believe every Member of this Committee would support my contention.
    From personal knowledge. I say that it is not possible for people serving on these committees to turn their minds from expectant mothers to mentally deficient people, from the treatment of the mentally deficient to the treatment of

    2657
    the unemployed, and from the prevention of destitution to the treatment of casuals. If all these duties are cast upon them, one of two things will inevitably happen. They will either become so thoroughly jaded, so thoroughly hardened in the old Poor Law spirit which the Minister is so anxious to perpetuate, that they will be unable to give proper attention to the social services, which ought not to be connected with the Poor Law, or, on the other hand they will, as I hope, become so impressed with the needs of the social services that they will refuse to consider the Poor Law problem.
    I have discussed this Bill, and particularly these Poor Law Clauses, with a great many members of local authorities of all shades of political opinions, and almost all of them were unanimous in saying that they were amazed that the present Minister should introduce this one particular Clause. I join in that amazement. We are constantly watching the fight between the Jekyll and Hyde of the right hon. Gentleman. When we have the privilege of meeting him in his Department about individual cases or on deputations, we see the patient, balanced and very knowledgeable administrator; in this House, more often, we see the rather callous party politician.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Oh, no.
    Mr. BECKETT: If you like my first description you must put up with my second. I cannot disentangle the two. In this case it seems to me that the desire to lump all these people together, with the result that they will not get decent and generous treatment, has quite overcome the right hon. Gentleman's desire as an efficient administrator to see that all local government work should be done properly by the proper people. I am supported in that view by the record of the rake's progress of the right hon. Gentleman. He has not always taken his present line, he has not always said "Let us lump unemployed, tramps, school children and expectant mothers all together." It is quite true that he has always encouraged and smiled upon boards of guardians and local authorities who were reactionary, but in his public utterances and in his own policies he has not taken that retrograde and reactionary line all at once; he has only gradually been forced into it.
    2658
    The proposal of the Maclean Committee, about which the right hon. Gentleman expressed very flattering opinions, was almost exactly on the lines of this Amendment, and the right hon. Gentleman did not express any opposition to that. Even as late as June, 1927, in Circular 805, in which, though he was beginning his retrograde movement it was not so pronounced as it is now, he said then that he had come to the conclusion that it was unnecessary to retain in any new Bill the original proposal to improve the co-ordination of public assistance by correlating payments of benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Acts with payment of relief under the Poor Law. In 1927, although he had thrown away his first proposals, under which he had led us to believe that he was in favour of preventing destitution rather than of treating it when it arose, he had not gone quite so far as lie has gone in this Bill in the indiscriminate lumping together of all these functions. It is no answer for the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary to say that under the concessions they made to us on Clause 4 things may not be quite as bad as we are afraid they will be, because even if progressive and advanced authorities take advantage of all those concessions they will be able to remove only one or two isolated problems from this conglomeration of misery, which the present Bill will stir into a muddy administrative mess. Even if a progressive authority takes the fullest advantage of the concessions made on Clause 4 we shall have only two or three items removed from the list, and we shall still have to have this extraordinary creation, the public assistance committee, supplanting other committees which have given years of service to social work. We have no reason to believe that immediately we get this legislation into operation the whole outlook of the more reactionary parts of the country represented by many of the hon. Members opposite will be changed to a more progressive outlook. They will still continue to be reactionary and they will still be able to hold up the decent administration of local affairs.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): I wish to say a few words in reply to the hon. Member for

    2659
    South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb). I do not think I need comment at any length on the speech of the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Beckett), which was a repetition of the arguments used on an earlier occasion, and I hope that he, at any rate, will not be complaining at half-past seven that we have not been able to make more progress. As regards the London County Council and their position under this Amendment, I do not know whether the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham have noticed that the Amendment is mandatory. It compels the delegation of the functions amongst the appropriate committees. It says that it shall be done, and gives no option to the local authorities concerned. It will be noticed in regard to Clause 15 that the powers there are permissive and, therefore, there is a considerable difference in that respect between that Clause and this Amendment. Then I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham that it is quite possible for a local authority to declare that they will adopt the administrative scheme which is suggested in Clause 4, and if they do so the various matters referred to in that Clause would go automatically to the appropriate committees of that authority.
    Mr. WEBB: No. The point is that Clause 4 shows what a council can do under the Education Acts and also what it can do under both the Education Acts and the Poor Law, but it will be impossible—at least I ask the right hon. Gentleman to say whether this is not so—for the council to delegate to the Education Committee what it has power to do for the children not under the Education Acts but under the Poor Law only. Is that so or not?
    Sir K. WOOD: Yes. It does not extend their powers. I do not want to put it higher than that. The Maclean Committee used a very curious phrase in their recommendations. They said that the powers of the local education authority should be "suitably extended" but they did not say what. "suitably extended" meant.
    Mr. LANSBRY: Read the Minority Report.
    Sir K. WOOD: My right hon. Friend has stated, in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham, that we are considering whether it is possible in any way still further to meet the desire which he has in this connection, and I think it would be for the convenience of everybody in the House, whatever they desire or do not desire in regard to the remaining Amendments on this Clause, to await the suggestion which my right hon. Friend has promised to make. I do not think anyone desires that this power should be mandatory. At any rate, I understand that the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green and his party do not desire that it should be mandatory.
    Mr. WEBB: I quite accept the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary, and I agree that this point ought to be left over. I want to be quite clear in this matter. May I point out that the concession which has been made on Clause 4 has no relation whatever to what is required to be done by this Amendment. I understand that the Minister of Health is including the point I have raised in the undertaking which he has given.
    Sir K. WOOD: No.
    Mr. WEBB: Then my point is not dealt with at all, and it will be impossible for the city council of Liverpool to delegate to the education committee the power for dealing with the children under the Poor Law, and it will be compelled, whatever it does under Clause 4, to delegate the special powers which it will have only under the Poor Law with regard to children of school age to the Public Assistance Committee. The city council will be free under Clause 4 to delegate to its health committee all the powers under the Public Health Act and such powers as it can exercise either under the Poor Law or the Education Acts, but it will not be free to delegate to any other committee but the Public Assistance Committee any of the new powers which it will receive, and which it cannot exercise under the Public Health Acts and can only exercise under the Poor Law. I understand the Parliamentary Secretary to say that the Minister of Health has promised to consider that point.
    Sir K. WOOD: No.
    Mr. WEBB: Then the city council of Liverpool will be deprived of the very important powers which are being given to the London County Council and all the other local authorities. I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman cannot meet us upon this point.
    Mr. ERNEST BROWN: I think the attention of the Committee ought to be drawn to what the Maclean Report says on this point. On page 10, in paragraph 24, the Maclean Committee recommend as follows:
    "24. We are confining our recommendations to the services hitherto undertaken by the boards of guardians, but it is impossible to provide efficiently and economically for such services without taking account, according to the actual circumstances of each county, of the existing provision for the sick that is already made under the Public Health Acts. We suggest that each county council should be required to prepare, after consultation with the various authorities within its area, a scheme, for the approval of the Local Government Board, showing how it is proposed that the provision for the sick and infirm (including maternity and infancy and the aged needing institutional care) hitherto provided under the Poor Law should be carried out for every part of the county."
    That does not agree with the quotation which has been made by the Parlia-
    mentary Secretary. There is another passage on page 12 of the same Report which goes definitely in the direction of the Amendment now under discussion. It is paragraph (5), which reads as follows:
    "Medical assistance in the home should be given by the staff of the medical officer of health under Public Health Acts suitably extended."
    Surely that recommendation is in favour of the proposal which is now made. If there is any meaning at all in it, it means that all the directions in regard to preventive medicine shall be under one authority. If there is any meaning at all in the bringing of these bodies together, surely it is that they shall do a kind of team work for the whole of the public health services of the country. I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary has shown his usual care in dealing with the Maclean Report, and, if he wishes to carry out the intentions of those who are backing this Bill, I think he ought to accept this Amendment.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'and,' in line 39, stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 203; Noes. 112.

    Division No. 71.]

    AYES.

    [5.6 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte. Lieut.-Colonel

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Albery, Irving James

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Goff, Sir Park

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Grace, John

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Grant. Sir J. A.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Grotrlan, H. Brent

    Astor, Viscountess

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Baldwin. Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hamilton, Sir George

    Benn Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Cunliffe. Sir Herbert

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Bennett, A. J.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Berry. Sir George

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Harland. A.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Brass. Captain W.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Headlam, Lieut. Colonel C. M.

    Briggs, J Harold

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col, Arthur P.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Brocklcbank, C. E. R.

    Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Hills, Major John Walter

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Hilton, Cecil

    Buchan, John

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Buckingham. Sir H.

    Falls. Sir Bertram G.

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Ford. Sir P. J.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster. Mossley)

    Cayzer. Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Forrest, W.

    Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Cazalet. Captain Victor A.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A.(Birm., W.)

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Christie, J. A.

    Fremantle, Lieut-Colonel Francis E.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Galbralth. J. F. W.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Gates, Percy

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Peto. G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Kindersiev. Major G. M.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Tasker, R. Inlgo.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Knox. Sir Alfred

    Preston, William

    Thomson. F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Locker, Cunilffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Ramsden, E.

    Tlnne, J. A.

    Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Remer, J. R.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. Georqe Clement

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Rhys. Hon. C. A. U.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Macqulsten. F. A.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Ropner. Major L.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Maitland, A. (Kent, Faveraham)

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

    Rye. F. G.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Watts, Sir Thomas

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Wells, S. R.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M

    Sanders Sir Robert A.

    Wilson. R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Moore. Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Sandon, Lord

    Withers. John James

    Moore. Sir Newton J.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Savery, S. S.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Scott. Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Shepperson. E. W

    Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'ge & Hyde).

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Smith, R W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne.C.)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Smith-Carington. Neville W.

    Wood, Sir S. Hill (High Peak)

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Smithers, Waldron

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L

    Oakley, T.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Stanley, Lieut-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. P.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Perkins, Colonel E K.

    Streatfelld, Captain S. R.

    Cartain Margesson and Captain Bowyer.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Harney, E. A.

    Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Harris, Percy A.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Scurr, John

    Baker. Walter

    Hirst, G. H.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Barnes, A.

    Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

    Shinwell, E.

    Barr, J.

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Sltesser, Sir Henry H.

    Batey, Joseph

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bellamy, A.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

    Strauss, E. A.

    Briant, Frank

    Kelly, W. T.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Broad, F. A.

    Kennedy, T.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Bromfield, William

    Lansbury, George

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Thorne, W (West Ham, Plalstow)

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Lawson, John James

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Charlcton, H. C.

    Lee, F.

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Townend, A. E.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lowth, T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Lunn, William

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Dalton. Hugh

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Mackinder, W.

    Warne, G. H.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Dennison, R.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Dunnico, H.

    March, S.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Gardner, J. P.

    Maxton, James

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Montague, Frederick

    Welsh, J. C.

    Gillett, George M.

    Morris, R. H.

    Westwood, J.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Whiteley, W.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Grerfell. D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Parkinson. John Allen (Wigan)

    Windsor, Walter

    Grundy, T. W.

    Pethick-Lawrence. F. W.

    Wright, W.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

    Potts, John S.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling.

    Hardle, George D.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

    Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITH: I beg to move, in page 4, line 39, after the word "committee," to insert the words:
    "representative, in the case of an administrative county, of every district comprised within the area of that council,"
    2664
    The object of this Amendment is to ensure that the Public Assistance Committee shall be fully representative of the different areas within the county. These proposals are sweeping away authorities against which complaints may have been

    2665
    urged, but which had the merit of being representative in their way. Now that a new authority is being set up, we have to see that the change does not lose us more than it gains for us, and from that point of view this Amendment is extremely important. The Minister of Health, in speaking on the last Amendment called attention to the fact that every public authority, in drafting its scheme, had to consider all the various institutions within its area. When it has done that, it appoints its public assistance committee, which, to begin with at any rate, is to be the authority to deal with those various institutions, situated in every part of the area. From that point of view, and, indeed, from every point of view, it is very important that there should be a fully representative authority. There is going to be an enormous variety of functions, and an enormous area will have to be covered. If it be objected that in the case of some administrative counties the proposal made in this Amendment, would give a very large committee, that is really a criticism, not of this Amendment, but of the administrative unit proposed by the Bill, and it might be necessary to deal with that in another way. All that I am trying to do at the moment is to ensure that these large new committees which are to be set up to deal with all the various functions in the large areas in question shall at least be representative of every part of the area with which they have to deal.
    Sir K. WOOD: I think that most people will be in sympathy with the general object of this Amendment, that is to say, that the public assistance committee shall be as representative as possible of the various districts comprising the area with which it has to deal. It must, however, be remembered that this is a public assistance committee of the council, and I think it is desirable that the council should be responsible for and choose its own representatives. I do not know that there is any reason to apprehend that any council will not make its public assistance committee, or any other committee that it may appoint, as representative at it can. It would be very unwise, unless it were absolutely necessary, for the House of Commons to begin to dictate to the local authorities how particular committees of an autho-
    2666
    rity should be composed. If we have any belief in democratic local government, we must trust, especially, these larger bodies in matters of this kind. If county councils, for instance, cannot be trusted on the question of how this particular committee should be manned, that is a very serious indictment of our local administration, and, I am afraid, does not show that hope and belief in local government which I thought animated the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment.
    This matter is one more for the Standing Orders and the practice of the particular authority concerned, and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we have in subsection (2) of Clause 6 put forward a scheme which will keep the guardians' committees in close contact with the public assistance committee. That we shall discuss further in what I hope will be a short time. The real answer, of course, as the hon. Gentleman apprehended in his endeavour to anticipate the reply which blows this Amendment out of the water, is that it would be quite impossible, in the case, say, of the West Biding, to have 148 representatives on the public assistance committee. I am afraid it is not sufficient for the hon. Gentleman to introduce an Amendment and say, "I am very sorry, but this Amendment does not work because your scheme upsets it." Unfortunately, this Amendment will not work. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would not desire to see a public assistance committee consisting of 148 representatives. For all these reasons I think we must trust the competence of the local authorities to man their public assistance committees in such a way that they will be really representative of the area.
    Mr. ERNEST BROWN: The right hon. Gentleman on democracy is more than usually amusing. Having successfully undermined everything in democracy that can be got by means of a popularly elected authority, he is discussing a proposal which will allow co-opted persons to have a better right than elected persons in non-county boroughs and urban or rural district councils, and he turns round and suggests that we are not democratic because we desire to see the smaller areas get proper representation. The right hon. Gentleman is like an Australian barracker on the cricket field

    2667
    at Sydney. He has counted out the boards of guardians, but he does not propose to discuss his own team. We do desire to discuss the team, for, whatever may be the merits or demerits of the scheme which has been counted out by the barracker on the Front Bench, we consider that there are greater demerits in the proposals contained in the Clause that is now before the Committee.
    The hon. Member for East Ham North (Miss Lawrence) on Friday expressed regret that she had not a blackboard. I have not a blackboard, but I have prepared a graph which hon. Members can look at, because I believe that the question of these committees is just as complicated as the formula which was under discussion on Friday. In the first place, we have, A, the guardians who have been counted out by the right hon. Gentleman and the Minister, and now we are to have B, the county council, and C, the public assistance committee which we are DOW discussing. Inside the area of the public assistance committee there are various other bodies popularly elected, namely, E, the non-county boroughs, F, the urban district councils, and G, the rural district councils. Then, coming to H, we have co-opted persons who have never been elected to anything by anyone. They are to go straight to C, the committee which we are now discussing, and which has been appointed by the county council, although they have never been elected, and the other persons will only get on to the public assistance committee through the medium of a sub-committee, D, called the guardians' committee. For the right hon. Gentleman, after the proposals which I have illustrated in this graph, to talk about democracy, is like Satan rebuking sin.
    With regard to the Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman has given away the demerits of his own scheme; he admits that it will not work. I agree that it will not work. Let us take the very area to which he refers, the West Riding of Yorkshire. That is an administrative county with 1,652,000 acres. It has at the moment 31 separate boards of guardians, and serving on those 31 separate boards of guardians are 1,261 guardians. The county council of the West Riding consists of 30 aldermen and 90
    2668
    councillors. All the major functions that are now performed by 1,261 guardians are to be given in two directions: firstly, to the county council and the county boroughs—and included in the 31 unions are 10 or 11 county boroughs—and then all the other little towns, all the urban districts, and all the rural districts, are to get the administration of their Poor Law functions through the centralised council of the administrative county, which has now only 120 members. I agree that the thing is utterly unworkable if you are to have that local knowledge of the areas which is so eminently desirable in work of this kind, which deals, not with material things, but with human beings, and human beings in dire need.
    Let me refer to one particular board of guardians in this area, namely, that of North Bierley. This is one of the most efficient boards of guardians in the whole of the United Kingdom. Let us consider the position of the little towns in the North Bierley Union. At the present there are inside that union 130,000 people on 30,000 acres. The union is spread over nine Parliamentary divisions, and there are inside it five towns with more than 10,000 inhabitants. They are ably managed towns, sending able representatives to the union. There is Cleckheaton with 12,537 inhabitants, Eccleshill, with 10,760, North Bierley itself with 15,914, Pudsey with 14,313, and Shipley with 28,277. At the moment Cleckheaton has three representatives on the North Bierley Board of Guardians, Eccleshill has two, North Bierley four, Pudsey three, and Shipley five. How will they stand when they are only one among 31 unions administered—[Interruption.] —Hon. Members opposite may mock, but they will not go down to these areas and face the electors there and mock. After all, we are not dealing with some trivial thing that does not matter; we are dealing with the utter dislocation of the whole administration of the Poor Law in every county in the land.
    The instance to which I am referring is not one of my own choice; the right hon. Gentleman himself chose this very area as an illustration, and I am showing that the scheme which involves this centralised public assistance committee of the county council cannot work and cannot give adequate representation to areas of such importance as the one to

    2669
    which I am referring. It must be remembered that this public assistance committee will have to deal with all Poor Law functions except that of administering outdoor money relief, which is to be carried out through a sub-committee. In a great county like the West Riding of Yorkshire, if two-thirds of the members of the committee are to be county councillors and one-third co-opted persons, it will mean that all the smaller areas which have no county councillors will be represented merely by co-opted persons.
    There are one or two other illustrations. Take the case of Gloucestershire, which has nearly 800,000 acres. There are 16 boards of guardians, and the total number of guardians 's 591. The county council consists of 20 aldermen and 61 councillors. That means that 81 persons, plus the co-opted members of the public assistance committee—one-third—are to administer the whole of the major Poor Law functions in the county of Gloucestershire with one exception. The Attorney-General would not be sitting so happily on the Front Bench if, instead of representing a division of the city of Bristol —which is a county borough and will have its own public assistance committee —he sat for, say, Cheltenham, which has a board of guardians of its own, consisting of 39 representatives. Cheltenham, being a non-county borough, will no longer have a board of guardians of its own, and all its functions will be merged in the county of Gloucester. I submit that it is supremely important that Cheltenham should know how many representatives it is going to have to look after the business of its board on the public assistance committee which is presently to be formed.
    Then there is Cirencester, which at the moment has its own board of guardians. There are on that board 46 members; how many members will it have on the public assistance committee? Will it have any? I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can tell us, but we ought to have answers to these questions before he turns down the Amendment in the summary and casual way in which he did it. Take Stow-on-the-Wold, one of the loveliest places in rural England. It has its own board of guardians with 30 members. Is it to have any representation on the public assistance committee or are the people
    2670
    merely to get to hear from the county town, 30 or 40 miles away, what is to be done? This is a very serious thing for this reason. One of the things that trouble poor people most about the Poor Law is the removal of their sick friends to institutions. Now they may have some reasonable assurance that they will be taken to the nearest institution to their home, but if you have centralised administration for the county area, there can be no such assurance. Hon. Members may smile, but I am sure the hon. Member for Stroud (Sir F. Nelson) will not smile. Stroud is not a county borough. Its hoard of guardians, with 44 members, will go. How many members will it have on the public assistance committee of Gloucester? It will be a very serious thing if the daughter, son or father of an agricultural labourer is taken for medical treatment 30 or 40 miles further away than under the present arrangement.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is going a little beyond the question of representation.
    Mr. BROWN: I submit that everything I am saying is utterly germane. We are trying to get adequate representation for these very small authorities. The whole consideration of the Bill has been vitiated from the beginning because the right hon. Gentleman and the Minister of Health only think in terms, of the great cities and large towns, not having given any adequate consideration to the rural parts of the country. They do not understand how distance makes an entirely fresh problem. [Interruption.] It is not my fault that the guillotine will fall at half-past seven. If hon. Members who are waiting to move their Amendments had supported mine, they would not so eagerly be waiting for me to sit down. I cannot imagine a more important issue than this. The right hon. Gentlman, in his desire to simplify, has complicated the problem for the centralised bureaucrat and for every efficient local administrator now doing his duty in the local board of guardians, who will find no seat on the centralised public assistance committee, and he has complicated it for every elector in every small parish who will not have a personal representative on the centralised public assistance committee

    2671
    unless an Amendment of this kind is put into the Bill. He would be wise in his own interest and in the interest of his supporters from the smaller districts if he accepted the Amendment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Whether this Amendment is possible or not, it illustrates admirably the difficulties to which the Bill is going to introduce us. Here you have a centralising Measure, thoroughly undemocratic, taking away powers from the smaller local authorities and handing them over to a centralised authority. The inevitable result of such a Measure must be that there is less local touch with the administration. At present, with your local boards of guardians, the people who are in need of assistance have a chance of seeing the people in charge of that assistance. They have the relieving officer still, but the guardians will no longer be there. This Amendment asks that each district, particularly rural ones, should have a representative on the new public assistance committee, so that there may be someone in the district to whom they can go. The districts I am acquainted with are very often 10 miles long by three wide. The personal touch will go entirely, and there is merely the relieving officer for the indigent person to deal with. The natural result of the whole of this part of the Bill is to destroy the human touch and to substitute red-tape. The relieving officer must work by rule-of-thumb method, and the whole of the personal element in the administration of the Poor Law, as far as country districts are concerned, vanishes. That is one of the necessary evil results of this Bill. But do not let the right hon. Gentleman tell us that the Bill is democracy. It is bureaucracy. The relieving officer will be independent of his committee. He will be able to carry on the administration most efficiently no doubt, and the administration may cost the country less, but it will break the hearts of the poor.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: This is a very serious matter that we are considering. At present, if a relieving officer is exercising his functions in a particularly harsh manner, there are ample sources of appeal open to those affected by his decisions. They know the guardians. Very often they are friendly with them.
    2672
    What is needed is less harshness in the Poor Law and rather more humanity. I think there is going to be less humanity than there is at present. There will be very few people indeed to whom aggrieved persons can get access once the bill becomes law. The number of avenues along which grievances can run will be damned almost completely. Take, for instance, Glamorgan, which is as big as the West Riding of Yorkshire. The administrative county consists of 474,607 acres, excluding the county boroughs. There are only three county boroughs, so that practically the whole county comes under the purview of this very limited number of persons who will constitute the Poor Law authority. The number of guardians in the eight unions is 481. Take the number of members of the county council. There are 23 aldermen and 66 councillors—only 88 persons, and two-thirds of them on the co-opted committee—to cover 474,000 acres. This is the more important at present because Glamorgan is almost entirely a distressed area where some sympathy is needed for dealing with the conditions of the people, and if the Government are likely to remain in office, which God forbid, those conditions are likely to continue. As far as one can see, the Government are making no proposal which can rid Glamorgan of its terrible burden of poverty and misery. If the Government were wise, they would accept an Amendment such as this in order to make their Bill effective. The Bill is one for the establishment of a bureaucratic system. Anyone who wants a taste of what bureaucracy means, bureaucracy devoid of any controlling hand by public authorities, has only to take the action of the referees now acting in the courts of assessors for dealing with the unemployed. I could illustrate the position by what is going on in my own borough and the senseless questions being put to unemployed men—
    The CHAIRMAN: These, I think, are not officials of the county council at all.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: I was going to say that officials are officials, whether of the central Government or of the county council. After all, the number of officials would be rather large and the area of supervision is being constricted. If the Committee desires to see some semblance of real, democratic control remaining, it

    2673
    will pass this Amendment. Unemployment is becoming a permanent feature of our social life. It shows no sign of diminution. As far as one can see, it has become what the Prime Minister said it might become, absolutely endemic, and this problem of unemployment is to be dealt with by these restricted committees, which are not elected at all, and in many cases the members will be drawn from the most reactionary section of the council.
    The CHAIRMAN: Co-option itself will be dealt with later.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: I have no doubt many of these things will be dealt with later. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] I do not know, and I do not care. It does not matter much when the Guillotine happens, because no questions will be adequately discussed. I have great pleasure in supporting the Amendment.
    Sir PHILIP PILDITCH: The last three speakers seemed to me to be under a misapprehension. Does anyone imagine there is going to be a real personal touch between the committees with which we are now dealing and the individual?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: These committees we are now discussing employ the relieving officers.
    Sir P. PILDITCH: As a matter of fact, we know perfectly well that what is to be done by this committee is to have regard to the general question of principle, and that the actual details and the working out of the relations between these bodies will be discussed later. I hope we shall get help from the hon. Gentleman the Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) in order that the provisions of this Bill will be made really effective. What is wanted in regard to these committees is that the best men and women shall be appointed to them; not so much, possibly, that every district should send its own representatives, for this would be a very undesirable way of dealing with the representations of a central committee such as this. It is very important that we should have the best individuals capable of looking at things in a broad spirit. We are not at present dealing with the question of local guardians committees, a fact which seems to be entirely forgotten by the last three
    2674
    hon. Gentlemen who have addressed the committee. That will arise when we come to Clause 6. I hope the Government will stick to their intentions in regard to the present Clause.
    Mr. RENNIE SMITH: I think the hon. Gentleman the Member for Spelthorne (Sir P. Pilditch) is under a misapprehension. He will find that when we come to deal with Clause 6, we shall have a good deal to say about it. I would remind him that it is of the very greatest importance that every part of a county area should have some direct access to this proposed public assistance committee, because that committee will have very great powers of control over the guardians committee, about which, apparently, he is so anxious. I am afraid that the Parliamentary Secretary, like his chief, does not at all appreciate the distinction there is between a county area and big cities like London and Birmingham. I should not have risen at this stage except that I desire to emphasise that point of view. I have discussed this matter with a considerable number of guardians belonging to all political parties in the West Riding of Yorkshire. I found a great deal of disparity of opinion amongst them in regard to the Clauses of this Bill, hut there was none with regard to this particular point. They want to have some real assurance that they are going to have direct influence on the public assistance committee, that they are going to have some direct representation on the smaller guardians committees, and some guarantee that these committee will come down to the personal lives of the districts. It is not enough for the Parliamentary Secretary to glide off with a magnificent theory of democracy, as he attempted to do. I appreciate his very high conception of democracy, but it is not enough to say that this particular reform will be unworkable. We are asking that in some way or other relatively large areas in a county should be assured of direct access to this important committee. We are faced with a really serious problem, and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he cannot see his way to defer the matter for further consideration, in order to see that in the county areas we shall have some guarantee of direct representation when these bodies are set up.
    Mr. HASLAM: The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Rennie Smith) has modified the demand of the three earlier speakers who moved and supported this Amendment from direct representation to access to the public assistance committee of the county council. I should have thought that under the Bill as at present drafted access is granted, because the sub-committees of the public assistance committee which are to be called the guardians committees will have direct access to that committee. In regard to the point about this being undemocratic, the public assistance committee is to be set up by the county council which is a democratically elected body, and every district, no doubt, will be duly and properly represented.
    Mr. RENNIE SMITH Mr. RENNIE SMITH rose—
    The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid that two hon. Members cannot remain standing at once.
    Mr. HASLAM: I am afraid that I did not quite catch the hon. Member's later point, but I maintain that the right of access is granted.
    Mr. RENNIE SMITH: The hon. Member must have misunderstood me. I am asking for access on the part of county districts of a county council. I am not using an argument against representation; on the contrary, I am prepared to support it. The hon. Member says that he has no doubt that the county council will concede considerable representation to all parts of the county. I am asking that this shall be guaranteed by the Minister.
    Mr. HASLAM: As I understand the position the hon. Member's further point is covered by the county council being a democratically elected body. If the local sub-committees of the public assistance committee can be made so as to represent all the local areas, and can be brought right into touch with the various villages and recipients of Poor Law relief, that will effect the object of the hon. Member and that of the hon. Members who spoke previously far more effectively than by the adoption of the present Amendment. The right way to bring the village districts into touch with the committees is by amendment of Clause 6.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: It was interesting to listen to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Horncastle (Mr. Haslam). I rather deprecate the point which he made, particularly in view of the fact that the hon. Gentleman has his name to an Amendment which attempts to give representation on the Committee to each rural and urban district area.
    Mr. HASLAM: That has to do with the guardians' committee.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman if he would be good enough to tell us what is the difference between direct representation of an existing guardians area on the public assistance committee, and seeking representation for local governing bodies in particular areas?
    Mr. HASLAM: Since the hon. Member has asked me, I will willingly endeavour to answer him. The difference is that it is not necessary that the direct touch which hon. Members want should subsist between the public assistance committee in the county town and the village districts. What is required is that the direct touch should be between the guardians committee and the village districts. That is in conformity with the general working of the Measure as I understand it.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: After all, the line which the hon. Member tries to draw is a very thin one. The obvious conclusion is that he is not satisfied with the suggested constitution of the public assistance committee, and I think that he ought to be the last Member in this Committee to rise in his place and suggest that there is no ground for the present Amendment. The point I should like to make is this: Would the right hon. Gentleman suggest that the present representation of our county councils has any semblance of democracy? Would the right hon. Gentleman suggest that when this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament the county council areas will really be representative of our various counties? I know that the right hon. Gentleman, whatever his friends may say, who knew nothing whatever at all about it, will be the last to suggest that the present county council representation is what it ought to be. The right hon. Gentleman himself and his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health have

    2677
    already undertaken at the first opportunity to introduce another Bill which will give to urban district councils, and to rural district councils probably, a far greater representation on the county councils than they have to-day. That being the case, at least the right hon. Gentleman himself would not dare to suggest that county councils are really as representative as they ought to be. There is one other point which I should like to submit, namely, that the more work you impose upon county councils while no payment is made to the representatives—
    The CHAIRMAN: That has nothing to do with the Amendment.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I have no desire to transgress your ruling, Mr. Hope. The point I wanted to make is that the more work you impose upon a few men or a few women, the fewer attendances you will obtain. This means, of course, that the business will largely be left in the hands of a comparatively small number of people, and that small number of people will be that section of the community who can afford to attend these meetings because they never lose work and never lose wages, since they never work at all. It is fairly obvious that these committees are going to resolve themselves into the most undemocratic committees that can possibly be conceived. If for no other reason, I am disposed to support this Amendment. To the West Riding area this Amendment would mean a large number of representatives, because it covers a very large area. In submitting the argument that a small number is better than a large number of people for this purpose, the right hon. Gentleman must have had behind his mind what we have feared for so long in this House, namely, that they want to deprive the worker-representative of any opportunity of serving on these public assistance committees. For that reason, these committees are going to be much more undemocratic than are the properly constituted bodies we have to-day. I think that the Committee ought to support this Amendment and ought to insist upon more instead of less democracy in our local government.
    Sir REGINALD MITCHELL BANKS: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), if I may say so with respect, makes the mistake not uncommonly made by Members of his party. He defines democracy not by having regard to the system but by having regard to results. The democratic system should surely see to it that authority, local or national, is chosen by the voice of the people, but what hon. Members opposite appear to think is that democracy is not democracy when it results in Conservative representation, which is very frequent.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) was getting rather wide of the discussion, and the hon. and learned Gentleman seems to be getting still wider.
    6.0 p.m.
    Sir R. BANKS: It is the complaint that if you entrust these functions to county councils as they are without further direct representation, you will be putting these important matters into the hands of a body which is not democratic. I was venturing to traverse the reasons given by the hon. Member for saying that the county councils were not democratic. It seems to me a little difficult to explain this passion for democracy in connection with guardians, when we find that only 10 per cent. of the voters take the trouble to intervene in elections. Surely, if we are going to transfer to the county councils duties which in fact affect so nearly the inhabitants of these rural and county districts, it is to be hoped that the voters of those districts, knowing what the new functions of the county councils are going to be, will take a greater interest in the elections and that there will be a larger popular vote.
    The question which the hon. Member put to the Committee was as to the difference between the Amendment of my hon. Friend and the Amendment which we are now discussing. My hon. Friend's Amendment suggests that the area covered by the guardians' committees should be represented upon the public assistance committee, while the Amendment now under discussion is that the rural and urban districts should be directly represented upon the public

    2679
    assistance committee. [Interruption.] Well, that each district should be represented upon the public assistance committee. Obviously, it will be the case that the boundaries of the guardians' committee area will not coincide with the boundaries of districts. The reason for that is that the boundaries of districts at the present time are anomalous and lead to lack of efficiency, and that is one very good reason for the suggestion of distribution of areas within the county, to secure that the system of representation which at the present time is quite inequitable and chaotic should be abandoned for a more scientific system of representation, under which an individual in any given district will he able to go to the guardians' committee and there make his complaint about, say, the conduct of the relieving officer, or the amount of relief which he is receiving. These functions are to be transferred to the local guardians' committees, who would be his advocates upon the public assistance committee and it is not to be supposed that their views will not be hearkened to.
    Mr. E. BROWN: I am surprised at the attitude adopted by the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Sir R. Banks). I thought the hon. and learned Member was coming to our assistance.
    Sir R. BANKS: I shall do so on Clause 6.
    Mr. BROWN: We are not now discussing Clause 6; we are discussing Clause 5. Why did I expect the hon. and learned Member's support? He represents Swindon Swindon is a non-county borough. What will happen there? Swindon will lose its direct representation upon the Cricklade Board of Guardians, of which it is a part, if I remember rightly, and it will only have a small voice in the direction of the public assistance committee appointed by the Wiltshire. County Council, sitting at Trowbridge. I am sure that the hon. and learned Member's electors at Swindon will not feel very happy if they are told by him that all the direct redress they are going to get at Trowbridge is through, perhaps, one member from the Swindon and Highworth area on the county council sub-committee, without power to redress their grievances by vote.
    2680
    The hon. and learned Member seems to overlook the fact that some of the major functions to be performed under this new committee do not refer to the mere receipt of money relief. The mere receipt of money relief is not one of the things that concerns the poor people most directly, but it is the administration of the institutions, the treatment and removal of the sick from their small village or town to an institution. At the moment, if there is an institution near the area of the board of guardians in a rural part, the poor people have this assurance that, since they have their own directly elected representatives on the local board of guardians, their friends and relatives will be taken to the nearest institution, when they are in need of treatment, so that they can visit them on a Sunday, at very small expense. Under the system now proposed in a county area, they have no such assurance and they will have very little direct assistance from the public assistance committee.
    We are not asking for an enlarged public assistance committee, but we ask that when the county council appoints its public assistance committee, either two-thirds out of its own elected membership or one-third out of co-opted members, it should have regard to the needs of every area inside the county. Just as I think that the Amendment of hon. Members opposite on Clause 6 is reasonable, and I propose to support it, I think that in return the hon. and learned Member, especially in the interests of Swindon, should support us in this Amendment, because the proposed committee, although small in numbers, will be the real major committee for the direction of Poor Law functions.
    Mr. R. HUDSON: The hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) painted a very terrible picture of an unfortunate man or woman having to go many miles under this scheme to an institution instead of being taken to the nearest institution. Let me point out that in return for going these miles he will gain very direct benefits.
    Mr. BROWN: He may.
    Mr. HUDSON: At the present time, if he is taken to the nearest institution—
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain Bourne): I cannot see how this Clause deals with institutions; it deals with committees.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Had a previous Amendment been accepted we should probably have taken a very different attitude on this Amendment. Our action is necessary because the right hon. Gentleman will persist in keeping in his Bill the old idea of destitution authorities. If we are to maintain the administration of the Poor Law on anything like its present lines it is necessary to have what is called local knowledge, and what is called the human touch, whatever that means. If the Parliamentary Secretary and his chief, the Minister of Health, had accepted our propositions in the Minority Report and had really broken up the Poor Law services, then the person who was sick, for instance, would have been dealt with in the ordinary natural manner that a sick person who is sick from an infectious disease is dealt with. All this talk about the human touch is only necessary because we deal with people from the point of view of whether they are sick enough that they may possibly die if they are not attended to. If a person is suffering from small-pox we do not worry about the human touch or about destitution; we take that person to an institution, there and then. We have the power to do that and we have the power to see that all the contacts are isolated and maintained, so that there can be no spread of the disease.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: This argument does not seem to me to be relevant to the Amendment, or the Clause. The question is whether each district should be represented on the Public Assistance Committee, and I must ask the hon. Member to keep to that point.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I would point out, with very great respect, that during the whole of the time you have been absent from the Chair the whole argument has been that the reason for the need of these Committees was to preserve the human touch with the individual persons applying for relief. That has been the main reason advanced for the Amendment before the Committee, and although I wish to obey your ruling I would point
    2682
    out that in Committee or in the House we are allowed to reply to the arguments of one another. I wish to emphasise very strongly that there would have been no need for this Amendment had the machinery which is being set up to deal with sickness been along the lines which I have described. The necessity for the Committee being elected in this manner is also to be found in the fact that the central committee will decide who are to be the relieving officers, what is to be the scale of public assistance and what is to be the kind of treatment which the poor people are to receive. As this is, to be within the four corners of the Poor Law, it is essential that local opinion should have full force on the central committee. Although I agree that the committee in Glamorgan or the West Riding will be very large, that is not our fault but the fault of the Minister in trying to ride two horses at one time. He is trying to reform the Poor Law, to carry out. certain recommendations of certain Committees and Commissions, and at the same time he is trying to preserve the old, wicked, inequalities and vices of Poor Law administration. For that reason, we shall go into the Lobby in support of the Amendment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am astonished at the attitude of the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Sir R. Banks) and the hon. member for Horn-castle (Mr. Haslam). I can understand from their point of view that they know that this Bill is unpopular, and they seek to protect themselves in their constituencies by putting down an Amendment precisely similar to the Amendment now before the House. The hon. and learned Member for Swindon, with his legal acumen, makes some profound distinction between this Amendment and the other. According to the Clause, the county is to be divided into areas and each area is to consist of one or more districts.
    Sir R. BANKS: That is exactly the point. The boundaries of these areas may not be and probably will not be the same as the district boundaries which the hon. Member who moved the Amendment now before the House has in view.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The district boundaries spoken of are the district boundaries of urban and rural districts.

    2683
    The new areas are to consist of one urban district or one rural district or of two districts added together.
    Sir R. BANKS: Or more.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The boundaries will be precisely the same.
    Sir R. BANKS: Cannot the hon. and gallant Member see a distinction between saying that each Member of the House can sit as a representative upon a certain committee, and that groups consisting of one or more Members of this House can sit as representatives en a committee? If he cannot see that there is a distinction, then I cannot see that he appreciates the force of language.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The hon. and learned Member presumes on the forgetfulness of this House. He presumes that the boundaries will be different because districts may be added together. Take the case where there is one district and not two added together. That, I hope, will be the normal procedure, because the whole trend of opinion is in favour of smaller units. In that case, the Amendments are precisely the same and we ought to have the support of hon. Members opposite. I appeal to the hon. and learned Member to use his logical capacity and his legal capacity in dealing with these matters. With regard to the question of democracy, the smaller the unit the more influence has democracy' upon their own Government. Democracy is not a question of the people voting, but it is a question of how far the people themselves control, and the smaller the unit the greater the democracy. I apologise for entering into an explanation of this point, but it is necessary when we talk so loosely about democracy. The nearer we get down to the smaller unit, the more real is the democracy.
    Sir R. BANKS: Where the guardians committee area is one district, I agree that in that case, and in that case alone, the Amendment now before the Committee coincides with the Amendment put down by some hon. Members on these benches, but that is not going to be so in every case. Where you have too many districts or where the district boundaries are badly arranged, then the
    2684
    areas will be different and that makes a great difference between the two propositions.
    Sir HENRY SLESSER: At any rate the Committee may draw this conclusion from the disquisition which has been going on between the legal hon. Member and the non-legal hon. Member—the hon. and learned Gentleman below the Gangway is at least dissatisfied with the Bill as it stands. The simple question is this. The hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Sir R. Banks) says that if certain districts are adopted which he would like to see adopted then he agrees that the central committee should be constituted with representatives from the guardians' districts. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment adopted as his basis rural and urban districts as they exist. Surely there is a great measure of agreement between the two, inasmuch as both of them really disagree with the Government which, after all, is the substantive point with which they are concerned. That is to say, on the essential question as to whether the central committee should be composed of representatives of districts the hon. and learned Member for Swindon and the hon. Member who moved the Amendment are agreed that the central committee should be made out of the districts. The only question between them is the size of these districts. The hon. and learned Member for Swindon says that hon. Members on this side judge democracy by its results. He did exactly the same thing himself because he says that guardians are an unsuitable authority—look how many, how few, people vote for them. If hon. Members opposite are right then it does not matter what opinions are given or how many people vote; it is all democracy. I agree with the views which have been expressed that we cannot have too much direct and immediate representation of the persons affected in these matters.
    The question of the urban districts has not been mentioned. In my view urban districts present more serious problems than rural areas. In the past the urban district has had its board of guardians. In rural districts the board of guardians although technically a different body from the rural district council, is, in fact, substantially the same. One would have thought it right and proper that an urban district, self-contained for Poor Law pur-

    2685
    poses, should be the authority for administration. If the county is to be the authority, absorbing the urban districts, then surely there is a case for direct representation on the part of urban districts. Take Lancashire with a dense population and wealthy districts. These districts will lose their authorities under this Bill and the whole administration will be carried on in the county town of Preston, which is in a comparatively rural part of the county. Can anything more remote from democracy be conceived than that a town like Preston in the rural part of Lan-
    cashire, with a rural point of view, should have vested in it the Poor Law administration for all the urban and industrial parts of the county? All we ask is that these urban areas in Lancashire shall have direct representation. Although I agree that the rural question is important there is a strong argument to be made from the urban point of view as well.
    Question put "That those words be there inserted?"
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 125; Noes, 218.

    Division No. 72.]

    AYES.

    [6.22 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Runclman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hardle, George D.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

    Harney, E. A.

    Scurr, John

    Baker, Walter

    Harris, Percy A.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Barnes, A.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Shinwell, E.

    Barr, J.

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Siton, Charles H.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Bellamy, A

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Briant, Frank

    Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

    Strauss, E. A.

    Broad, F. A.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Bromfield, William

    Kennedy, T.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Lansbury, George

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Lawrence, Susan

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lawson, John James

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lee, F.

    Townend, A. E.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lindley, F. W.

    Viant, S. P.

    Connolly, M.

    Livinqstone, A. M.

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Cove, W. G.

    Lowth, T.

    Walsh, Rt. Hon Stephen

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Lunn, William

    Warne, G. H.

    Dalton, Hugh

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Mackinder, W.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Day, Harry

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Dennison, R.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Dunnico, H.

    March, S.

    Westwood, J

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Maxton, James

    Whiteley, W.

    Edwards. J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Montague, Frederick

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Walsh Univer.)

    Morris, R. H.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Forrest, W.

    Morrison. R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Williams, Dr. J H. (Lianelly)

    Gardner, J. P.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, T. (York. Don Valley)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Gillett, George M.

    Paling, W.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Windsor, Walter

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Wright, W.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Potts, John S.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Grundy, T. W.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Sir Robert Hutchison and Major Owen.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Ritson, J.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bennett, A. J.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Albery, Irving James

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Berry, Sir George

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Buchan, John

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Bird. E. R. (Yorks, W. R. Skipton)

    Buckinqham, Sir H.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Astor, Viscountess

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Brass, Captain W.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Bainiel, Lord

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Alton)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Christie J. A.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Preston, William

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Ramsden, E.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Colfox, Major Win. Phillips

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Remer, J. R.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Rye, F. G.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Jones, Sir G. W, H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Sandon, Lord

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Sassoon, sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Savery, S. S.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philly

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Lougher, Lewis

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Herman

    Smithers, Waldron

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Streatfelld, Captain S. R.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Tinne, J. A.

    Gales, Percy

    Monsell, Fyres. Com. Rt. Hon. B. M

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Gilmour, Lt Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Givn, Major R. G. C.

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kinqston-on-Hull)

    Goff, Sir Park

    Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Watts, Sir Thomas

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S D. L. (Exeter)

    Wells, S. R.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Nicholson, O (Westminster)

    Williams, A. M (Cornwall, Northern)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Withers, John James

    Hanbury, C.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Oakley, T.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Harland, A.

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

    Pilcher, G.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Major The Marquess of Titchfield and Captain Wallace.

    Mr. BRIANT: I beg to move, in page 4, line 39, after the word "committee," to insert the words:
    "nominated as far as possible from among those members of the council who have experience in the administration of the Poor Law."
    This proposal is not very extensive in its operation. If it is accepted it will make it obligatory on the assistance committee to co-opt from those people who have already had some knowledge of the administration of Poor Law affairs. I
    2688
    think it is desirable that this House should indicate- that where possible those who have already had experience of this work should be elected to serve on these committees. It is only those who have never done this kind of work who think that anybody can do it. As a matter of fact, it is work which requires a good deal of knowledge of human nature, and while the administration must be efficient it must also be humane. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept the Amendment.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip): The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment described it as harmless, which appeared to show that he has not very much hope that it will be accepted. I cannot imagine that a Member of the Liberal Opposition would move an Amendment to a Government Bill unless it was intended to do some harm. The hon. Member has anticipated that an Amendment so ambiguous in its phraseology could not possibly be put into the Bill. The words "as far as possible" appear to indicate some difficulty in stating exactly what the county council ought to do. Are they to offer a position to everyone who may be supposed to have had experience in the administration of the Poor Law? What is experience of the Poor Law? Does it mean that the persons concerned are to be members of a board of guardians, or does it mean that they have had connection with societies which are interested in the administration of the Poor Law? We appreciate the hon. Member's intention, and probably a county council would pay some regard to the experience of the persons whom they put on the assistance committees, but to put into the Bill a direction of this character, though perhaps harmless, would be useless as well as harmless.
    Mr. E. BROWN: I am surprised at the reply of the learned Attorney-General. The answer to his two questions is "Both." There are some county councils with very few members who have been on boards of guardians, but they have members who have had administrative experience in connection with societies which take a great interest in the operation of various sections of the Poor Law. We desire that when a committee is formed, the county council shall have regard to those of its members who have had experience of the Poor Law. I have here a statement showing how detailed and various are the duties involved. If any hon. Member who has not had experience of guardians' work would study a chart of this kind, which gives a fortnight's scheme of work, he would understand why those of us who take an interest in Poor Law work are keen that this committee should consist as far as possible of men and women who have had experience of Poor Law administration in one way or another.
    Sir H. SLESSER: We find ourselves in some difficulty with regard to this Amendment. We are to propose later the abolition of paragraph (1, a) of this Clause, and that proposal would have the effect of doing away with co-opted members altogether. We find ourselves in the difficulty that we are now asked either to accept or to reject a proposal that certain persons of a particular class shall be co-opted. The view of Members of the Labour party is that they do not want any persons co-opted at all. In these circumstances I think that we cannot give support to this Amendment. At any rate we must reserve our freedom to oppose resolutely any proposal to nominate anyone on a body that is not entirely democratically elected.
    Mr. CRAWFURD: There are two points I want to mention. One is in answer to the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken. I do not, understand his difficulty. We shall support the later Amendment to cut out all co-opted members, but if, as may conceivably happen, that Amendment should be defeated, we shall, in the Amendment that we are moving now, have endeavoured to safeguard certain things. Indeed we are asking the Minister to accept an Amendment that is all in the spirit of his own Bill. In reply to the learned Attorney-General I would say that when this Bill was first brought forward, his colleague the Minister of Health specifically asked for constructive criticism and assistance. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that he did not think an hon. Member on the Liberal benches would move an Amendment unless it was likely to be harmful, but no one who knows my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. Briant) would suggest that he would do anything but his best to make this a workable Measure.
    Mr. HARRIS: The learned Attorney-General was very patronising to my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. Briant), who has an immense knowledge, spread over a great number of years, of Poor Law administration. Apparently the learned Attorney-General thought that his position gave him a right to suggest that the Amendment was without precedent. There are precedents.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I did not say anything about its being without pre-

    2691
    cedent. I simply took up what the hon. Member said in introducing his Amendment, which he dammed with faint praise by saying that it was harmless.
    Mr. HARRIS: I am glad to know that the hon. and learned Gentleman admits that there is a precedent. The precedent is in the case of the Education Act. It provided specifically that the aldermen to be appointed should have a knowledge of education. Anyone who has knowledge of the administration of education knows that when it comes to the question of aldermen to serve on the education committee, great care is taken to see that they have had some educational experience. We want the same care to be taken in these appointments. We do not want the appointments to be made for
    party or political purposes. At any rate, on the first occasion, we want persons to be elected who have had administrative experience of this particularly delicate work. I have known occasions when school managers were being appointed, when experience and knowledge were ignored and only party considerations were taken into account. In many cases in London I have seen experienced people swept away from school management for mere party reasons. That is the sort IDA thing we want to avoid. We wish to see the Poor Law administered by the most sympathetic and competent people.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 124; Noes, 227.

    Division No. 73.]

    AYES.

    [6.41 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Harney, E. A.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Amman, Charles George

    Harris, Percy A.

    Scurr, John

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley]

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Baker, Walter

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Shinwell, E.

    Barnes, A.

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Barr, J.

    Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Smith, Rennle (Penlstone)

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bellamy, A.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Strauss, E. A.

    Briant, Frank

    Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

    Sullivan, J.

    Broad, F. A.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Bromfield, William

    Kennedy, T.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham Pialstow)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Lansbury, George

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Lawrence, Susan

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lawson, John James

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lee, F.

    Townend, A. E.

    Connolly, M.

    Llndley, F. W.

    Viant, S. P.

    Cove, W. G.

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lowth, T.

    Warne, G. H.

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Lunn, William

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Day, Harry

    Mackinder, W.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Dennison, R.

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Dunnico, H.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    March, S.

    Westwood, J.

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Maxton, James

    Whiteley, W.

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Montague, Frederick

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Forrest, W.

    Morris, R. H.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gardner, J. P.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Glbbins, Joseph

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Gillett, George M

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Paling, W.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Windsor, Walter

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Wright, W.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Potts, John S.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Richardson, R (Houghton-le-Spring)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Ritson, J.

    Sir Robert Hutchison and Major Owen.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

    Hardle, George D.

    Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyto, Lieut.-Colonel

    Astor, Viscountess

    Bennett, A. J.

    Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

    Atkinson, C.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Albery, Irving James

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Berry, Sir George

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Balniel, Lard

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Hanbury, C.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Brass, Captain W.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Harland, A.

    Pitcher, G.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Pildltch, Sir Philip

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Brockiebank, C. E. R.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Preston, William

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Buchan, John

    Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Ramsden, E.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Remer, J. R.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Hohler, Sir Gerald Fltzroy

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Cayzer Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Holt, Capt. H. P.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Home, Rt. Hen. Sir Robert S.

    Rye, F. G.

    Christie, J. A.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Inskip, sir Thomas Walker H.

    Sandon, Lord

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Savery, S. S.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Crott, Brigadler-General Sir H.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Smithers, Waldron

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Lougher, Lewis

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Tinne, J. A.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Milne. J. S. Wardlaw

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Faile, Sir Bertram G.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Warner, Brigadier-General w. w.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Wells, S. R.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Gates, Percy

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Withers, John James

    Gauit, Lieut. Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Glyn, Major R. G. C

    Nicholson. Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Oakley, T.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Grentell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Wallace.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Perring, Sir William George

    Mr. HARRIS: I beg to move, in page 4, line 40, to leave out the word "may" and, to insert instead thereof the word "shall."
    I move this Amendment in order to secure not only that women "may" be on these committees, but that they "shall" be on these committees; and I hope to get a satisfactory assurance from
    2694
    the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary on that point. The Attorney-General, as a lawyer, is possibly more influenced by precedent than by argument, and I would point out to him that there are many precedents for this proposal, the best of which is the case of the education committees on which, at present, there must be a certain percentage of women.
    Sir K. WOOD: On a point of Order. I do not think the hon. Member appreciates the effect of this Amendment. It would be to make co-option compulsory. This proposal does not deal with the point of making it compulsory that there should be so many women on the public assistance committees. I do not know if the hon. Member is prepared to proceed with his Amendment and to take the consequences of co-option being made compulsory.
    Mr. HARRIS: I have made perfectly clear my only reason for moving the Amendment and I do not intend to press it to a Division. But we are most anxious, if we are to have these co-opted committees, that there should be women on them, because on the county councils and borough councils at present there are very few women, whereas on the guardians there is a very large percentage of women.
    Mr. E. BROWN: I beg to support the Amendment.
    Sir K. WOOD: I do not quite know how I am to approach this matter. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) has just moved an Amendment which makes co-option compulsory, but his speech did not deal with that point at all. Either he means to make co-option compulsory and take the consequences of it, or else he has some other idea in mind. If he wishes to deal with co-option I suggest we had better proceed to a later Amendment which raises that question and on which we can deal with it generally. If the hon. Member wishes to move an Amendment making it compulsory that women should be members of the public assistance committees, he ought to do so in another form.
    Mr. BROWN: I quite agree, but the right hon. Gentleman must realise that the difficulties experienced in this connection are not our difficulties alone. He will see on the Paper that the names of the hon. and learned Member for Preston (Mr. A. R. Kennedy) and the hon. and learned Member for Moss Side (Mr. G. Hurst) are down to this Amendment. They are hon. Members on his own side, who are learned in the law, and they agree with this Amendment, not, I presume, because they think that co-option should be imperative, but
    2696
    because they have found it very difficult, as we have, to raise in any other way the direct issue of whether or not women should be co-opted.
    Sir K. WOOD: It is quite easy to propose that in choosing the public assistance committee the council shall choose a certain number of women.
    Mr. BROWN: I am glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say it is perfectly easy. We have not found it so easy. May I take it, however, that the right hon. Gentleman's advice as to the ease of drafting such an Amendment is an indication of sympathy with the aim which we have in view. If not, we may have to change our views about pressing the Amendment. We are not in favour of co-option, and we propose to vote against it later on in toto, but we have found it difficult to devise Amendments inside the terms of the Bill—and remember it was the right hon. Gentleman and his friends who drafted the Bill—to ensure that if there are to be co-opted committees, then a proportion of the members of such committees should be women. Women on county and borough councils only number 335, whereas there are 2,300 on the boards of guardians, and in view of those proportions we fear that there may not be a fair representation of women on these proposed committees.
    Mr. GERALD HURST: I was surprised to find a considerable number of Members of the Liberal party putting down their names in support of the proposal to make co-option essential in this administrative scheme. I may congratulate them on their good sense in doing so, because anybody who realises the size of the county councils and county borough councils, and their composition, must come to the conclusion that it is most desirable that in every case there should be co-opted members. It is absolutely impossible, in my submission, to run an administrative scheme of this kind properly unless you add co-opted members to the existing personnel. There are two reasons for this. The first is that the numbers on the ordinary county councils and the ordinary county borough councils are quite insufficient to deal with the enormous number of new duties to be discharged under the Bill. Secondly, a very large number of the existing members

    2697
    have not the time and have not had the training which would enable them to perform these new duties as efficiently as co-opted members. One of the inducements for supporting this part of the Bill is the idea that persons who have had practical training as guardians should be brought inside the bodies who are going to administer Poor Law relief.
    It is idle to say that that is not democratic. Who cares whether it is democratic or not? The important thing is to get as efficient a service as possible for the good of the poor, and the good of the people generally in the district. Whether the members of these bodies are elected directly or indirectly is of no consequence whatever. I agree with hon. Members opposite as to the importance of adding women to the committees. It has been pointed out that in the existing county councils and county borough councils there Are only 335 women as against some 2,300 on the boards of guardians. The services of those women affil be lost to the administration of the Poor Law unless co-option is compulsory. For those reasons I think the Liberal idea, for once, is sound, and I support the Amendment.
    Mr. A. R. KENNEDY: I have not the difficulty which has been expressed by hon. Members on the other side in regard to this Amendment. I originally put down the Amendment in these terms, in order, directly to raise this question of compulsory co-option, and I am entirely in favour of it for the purposes of this Clause. I shall not repeat the arguments which have been used by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Moss Side (Mr. G. Hurst), but I would point out that precisely the same question arose during the discussions on the Education Act of 1902, when it was proposed in face of great opposition to abolish the school boards. That Act provided that co-option to the education committees of local authorities should be compulsory. I do not know, because I have not had sufficient experience, but I am inclined to believe that co-option on education committees has been satisfactory. [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!"] I am encouraged by that applause to believe that it has been thoroughly satisfactory, and I know in my own constituency to-day, the education committee includes
    2698
    some eminent people who have devoted themselves very largely to the work of education to the manifest advantage of the city. To-day, the chairman of that committee is a very eminent gentleman in the city of Preston who is unable to be a member of the council, but who has given his services gratuitously and with great effect on the education committee.
    When one remembers the immense amount of work which is to be thrown on these authorities, by the transfer of the Poor Law, it seems to be a great mistake not to take advantage, in every way we can, of the experience of those who have been engaged in Poor Law administration. It is manifest that many of such persons will not find their way on to the councils. They cannot do so. The numbers are against them, and I would support any proposition which would enable those persons to assist the county and the poor by their presence as co-opted members on the local committees and the benefit of their experience. Furthermore, in a county borough such as that which I have the honour to represent, we may have to face a situation of this kind. It may be—I do not not say it, is likely—that in a county borough there may be no sub-committees of the public assistance committees. In the Bill there is a provision that the public assistance committee of the county borough "may" appoint sub-committees; but it may also carry out the work without doing so. If that should happen in any case there will be no members associated with the work of Poor Law administration in such a county borough who have been guardians, unless they also happen to be councillors. That is a contingency which one would not face with equanimity, and I am sure the Minister does not want to face it.
    7.0 p.m.
    My principal reason, however, for supporting this proposal to make co-option compulsory is the interests of those concerned in the Poor Law. I cannot believe that any disadvantage accrues from associating with this great work those who have had experience in it and those who are anxious to have that experience. In these days county councillors and borough councillors have many and diverse interests. In Preston, alone—by no means an unusual example—there are some 48 aldermen and councillors. There are sixteen standing

    2699
    committees and many sub-committees You are transferring to that body an important branch of work which is new to many of the members, and nothing but advantage will accrue from the addition to the public assistance committee of men and women who are experienced in the work and who desire to take it up, it may be to the exclusion of other forms of public work. Lastly, may I acid this consideration, that it is more easy to convert "may" into "shall" now than to do the same later on. The present moment is the opportunity to secure that which the Minister desires. From the opposition in some places it is clear that there it may be difficult to secure the co-option which is desired. The opportunity should he taken now because, if it is not done now it may never be done.
    Sir JOHN MARRIOTT: Like the hon. Member, I represent a county borough and, I need hardly say, an exceedingly important one. I desire to support the Amendment, because it seems to me a matter of supreme importance that in county boroughs the committee which is to he set up should, as a matter of fact and as a matter of course, retain the services of those who had already been associated with the administration of the Poor Law. We have in the city to which I refer a most admirable board of guardians who have done their work to the general satisfaction, and I should regard it as nothing less than a calamity, in the interests of the poor people of York, if their services were not to be retained on any committee that is to be set up.
    Major HILLS: I venture to remind the Committee what exactly is the point on which we shall vote in a few minutes. It is not whether it is right that those who are connected with the Poor Law should continue their connection; it is not whether county or borough councils are overworked; the question is whether we ought to coerce our county and borough councils and make them, whether they will or no, co-opt persons on to the public assistance committee. I listened to the last speech with a good deal of surprise. I suppose my hon. Friend represents the Corporation of York. Do they want to be coerced into this?
    Sir J. MARRIOTT: I represent the City of York, not the Corporation of York.
    Major HILLS: Here we have a very interesting situation if the Corporation of York, which is elected by the electorate of York, does not represent the City of York.
    Sir J. MARRIOTT: That is an inference which the hon. and learned Member is not entitled to draw.
    Major HILLS: I did not draw the distinction between the Corporation and the City of York; it was drawn by my hon. Friend. Surely, this Committee will not, without mature consideration, pass an Amendment which would compel great cities like York, Manchester and Liverpool and great county councils like Lancashire to co-opt persons on to the public assistance committee whether they will or no. Seeing the immense powers you are giving them by this Bill, it would surely be a very strange thing if you do not leave them some discretion in the matter. I hope the Government will stand firm on this point, because I should regard it as a great blot on the Bill if this Amendment were carried.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: It really does not much matter whether the Government stand firm or not, because if the Committee will read the Amendment carefully, they will see that it makes no earthly difference to the Bill. They will see that a council can evade the law by nominating to that committee one solitary person.
    Mr. HARRIS: On the understanding that the Minister will look into this matter, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. VIANT: I beg to move, in page 4, line 41, to leave out paragraph (a).
    This means that the whole paragraph will be deleted, but the Amendment is not moved with any intention of excluding women from representation on the committees. There is no better champion in the country of the women's cause than the party with which I am associated, but we desire to eliminate entirely the principles of co-option. This Committee will have to disburse large sums of money, and we hold very strongly and definitely that

    2701
    the principle of co-option is exceedingly dangerous when co-opted persons are members of an authority charged with responsibility of disbursing public funds. Upon those grounds, we take strong exception to this paragraph, and I hope the Minister will be prepared to appreciate the force of our argument that those who are responsible for disbursing public funds ought to be responsible to the electors for the powers they obtain.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I beg to support the Amendment, and I do so because the principle of co-opting members to a body of this description is hopelessly reactionary and ought not to be accepted. I should like to refer to what I think was lurking in the Minister's mind when he conceived the idea of co-opting a certain number of Members to this committee. He told us on the Second Reading that there were a large number of people who were willing to render service but were unwilling to face a modern election. Probably he is correct, and there are a number of persons who are willing to render service on a public body in this way since they would not be responsible to anyone while performing an apparent public duty. In my opinion, that is entirely wrong. Another reason why the right hon. Gentleman has introduced this principle can be seen in the Circular which he issued in 1927 to boards of guardians throughout the country. He said there, referring to the amount of Poor Law relief in individual cases, that he viewed with apprehension the continuance of a system whereby the amount of relief given to each individual applicant should be dependent upon promises made by politicians during local election campaigns. That seems to be the real reason why, instead of ordinary elected members of the public assistance committee we are to have this work done in future by a body with as many of its representatives non-elected and in no way responsible to anybody for what they do or fail to do. That is a hopelessly reactionary principle which ought not to enter into legislation in 1928.
    We are being told that the Conservative Government have extended the franchise to women and have made democracy perfect in this country. Yet at the very moment that democracy, so far as elec-
    2702
    toral power is concerned, has received its last extension the value of the vote is being reduced by the introduction of the principle of co-option. You are only going to give two-thirds of its value to a vote if in the election of a county councillor one-third of every vote cast for him is nullified by the principle of co-option. As to the representation of women, the Members of the Labour party are as anxious for a fair number of women to be on these local government bodies as any other party. Now that the vote has been extended to women of 21 on the same terms as men, there is no shadow of doubt that women will take their place upon these local government bodies, particularly in cases where women and children have to be cared for. From that point of view, the elimination of this paragraph dealing with co-option will in no way adversely affect the women serving upon these bodies. Women can and will in the days to come play their part and face an election. They will be prepared to meet all the opposition that may be forthcoming to whatever political party they belong. A test of the sincerity of those who serve on a local governing body ought to be their willingness to submit themselves for election and to render themselves responsible to the people who send them into office for their sins of either commission or omission during that term.
    This new principle is not one that Members of this Committee ought to support. While it may be argued by the Minister that the present representation on our county councils is totally insufficient to perform all the multifarious duties that have fallen upon them, and that they must be augmented in some way, and while he may say that unless there is some supplementary number of men and women who are going to help in this work the county councils will find themselves in a position where they can no longer carry their full burden, we say that that is not a reason, but is merely an excuse. We say that suitable words could be provided whereby our urban and rural district councils could be given direct representation on these public assistance committees, and whereby the work could be shared out in such a way that you would have direct representatives serving on these most important committees and the responsibilities of the county council would be so distributed as to give the

    2703
    maximum satisfaction to the whole of the districts throughout the country.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The mover of the Amendment made it clear that he regarded it as a test of the general principle of co-option, and I am quite willing that we should take the sense of the Committee upon that general principle as it is confined and restricted in the provisions of this Bill.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Since they are nominated, they are nominated for life, and they are irremovable, according to your Bill.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That is another point altogether, on which I do not find any Amendment on the Paper. The hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) cited co-option as a new principle—
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: On public assistance committees.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not see any difference in principle between co-option on public assistance committees and co-option on any other committee of a council. I must say, in reference to the suspicions of the hon. Member as to what he thinks are lurking in the dark recesses of my mind, that I think he has let his suspicions run away with his common sense, because what are we proposing to do here? Are we proposing to co-opt members on the council itself? Not at all. We are proposing to co-opt members on a committee of a council only, and quite apart from the fact that we have secured that even on that committee there shall be a definite majority of the elected members of the council, the proceedings of the committee itself are, of course, subject to the council, which is an entirely elected body. It is quite a mistake to suggest, as was suggested by the mover of the Amendment, that by co-opting members on to the public assistance committee we are handing over to them the power to control the finances of the county as a whole. We are doing nothing of the kind. The council will only delegate to the public assistance committee certain functions, with any restrictions or conditions which they may think fit to impose, and, of course, the whole control of the finances of the council will still remain in the hands of the council itself and will not be affected in
    2704
    any way by the co-option of a few outside members on to an individual committee.
    I attach considerable importance to the power which is given by this particular paragraph in the scheme to provide for the co-option of a certain number of members on this public assistance committee, and I do so for two reasons. First, there is what I may call the temporary reason, that we are going to transfer to a new body functions hitherto performed by boards of guardians. We want to take advantage, if we can, of the experience and of the knowledge of those who have been doing the work of guardians, but who are not now members of the council, and we can only do it by giving this power of co-option. That is the first and the temporary reason, but I look forward to a permanent co-option, in a different sense from that put by the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). I look forward to the presence of a permanent body, not of permanent individuals, but of a permanent number of co-opted members on this body. I think that if we can get some people to come in and help with the work, it will lighten the burden on the elected members, which, as we have heard from many quarters, is extremely heavy; but particularly I value the provision because it enables us to bring in a certain number of women into the administration of this work whom, I believe, otherwise we should fail to get.
    After all, the participation of our women in the work of local government is the work of this House, but even now the number of women who are actually taking part in local administration is very small, and I am certain that there are a number of women who would he very glad to take part in work of this kind, work for which, it seems to me, they are peculiarly fitted, but who will not face what the hon. Member for the Don Valley calls the humdrum of an election. That is not in the least because they are afraid to answer to their constituents, but because they are shy and because they fear the publicity, but I would add this, that what I have found in my own experience not infrequently takes place is that a woman who has once been co-opted and begun to take up the work soon gets an interest in it, and

    2705
    finally becomes so interested in it that she is able to overcome her shyness and in process of time is ready to face even the humdrum of an election. I. believe that this is a channel by which we can ultimately get a larger proportion of women into the work of local administration, and for that reason alone I believe it is worthy of the support of this Committee.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to accept the Amendment next on the Paper, which we shall not have the opportunity of discussing, limiting the permanence of the appointment of these co-opted members on the public assistance committee?
    Mr. RENNIE SMITH: The Minister raised the question of whether or not the principle of co-option was already in existence, but I think he misunderstood my hon. Friend the Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) on that point. My hon. Friend wanted to make it clear that that principle does not operate on boards of guardians, and we are now confronted with the proposal that a body which is much more removed from the life of the people should have the principle of co-option introduced into it. I think it is a long time since we had such a tender and wistful plea for women in public life put forward by a Tory as we had just now from the Minister of Health.
    Viscountess ASTOR: The first woman in this House was a Tory.
    Mr. SMITH: Half an hour ago the right hon. Gentleman was talking about faith in democracy, and I want him to apply his principles on that point in this Amendment. I want him to consider the point of view of the National Executive Council of the Rural District Councils Association in regard to this Amendment. They say:
    "At the present time in rural areas practically every applicant is known to some guardian. Under the Government's proposal this will be impossible. The majority on all Poor Law committees is, according to the White Paper, to consist of county councillors, and their wider area will render it impossible for them to know the applicants personally, even if their other duties give them time to attend the committee meetings. The new co-opted members would probably at first be chosen from existing guardians, having the confidence of the electorate, but as vacancies occurred the county council would have no means of knowing the class of people whom the electors would have
    2706
    chosen to administer Poor Law relief, and the work would undoubtedly drift into the hand; of theorists and people entirely out of touch with the poor."
    This is the judgment of people who have been largely responsible for exactly the work that has to be done by this proposed new authority which is to be set up. I do not know what kind of ideas the rural district councils have as to who the theorists are, but it is perfectly clear, when they speak of people entirely out of touch with the poor, that they must be referring to the rich people. The poor are always in contact with the poor, and by the introduction here of the principle of co-option, I am afraid we are creating a system of the government of the poor by the rich. It is entirely from that point of view that we want to express, not only in general terms, but with regard to this particular application, our strongest opposition to the principle of co-option, particularly from the point of view of the rural county areas, where at the present time the county council is hopelessly overburdened with rich people. [Interruption.] They are the most unrepresentative bodies in the whole country, and yet we are giving to these bodies power to co-opt Lady Mary So-and-So and Lord John So-and-So to serve on them.
    If -Mere is one thing that is more important than another, it is that these well-to-do people, who have no real knowledge of the problem with which they have to deal, should be effectively reduced and not increased on these bodies. I submit that it is preposterous, when the Minister is diminishing the effective powers of democratic government by setting up these bodies, that at the same time he shout] be inserting this reactionary method of calling in non-democratic representatives to manage the lives of the poor people. If there is one thing that is nauseating in the rural areas, it is the domination which the well-to-do people have over the poor. If there is one thing that has ruined the Liberal party, if I may put it in that way, it is that after a century of development the whole of public life in the rural areas is so largely dominated by and in the hands of a relatively few well-to-do people. It is because of these reasons that we assert our strongest opposition to this reactionary principle

    2707
    of co-option which it is proposed to let in by the back door by this Clause. So far as the rural areas are concerned, we ought to seek, not to diminish interest in elections, but to increase it, and the only way to do that is to maximise the responsibility—
    It being half-past Seven of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to
    the Order of the House of 12th December, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 252: Noes, 132.

    Division No. 74.]

    AYES.

    [7.30 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col Charles

    Davies. Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Albery, Irving James

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Kennedy. A. R. (Preston)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Astor, Viscountess

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Atkinson, C.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Balniel, Lord

    Everard, W, Lindsay

    Loder, J. de V.

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    fan tax, Captain J. G,

    Lougher, Lewis

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Fade, Sir Bertram G.

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Bennett, A. J.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Forestler-Walker, sir L.

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Berry, Sir George

    Forrest, W.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Bevan, S. J.

    Foster, Sir Harry s.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Brass, Captain W.

    Gates, Percy

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Briscoe. Richard George

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Grace, John

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saftron Walden)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Bull. Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Grotrian H. Brent

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Cayzer Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Cazalet, Captain victor A.

    Hanbury, C.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood)

    Harland, A.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Harrison,- G. J. C.

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Christie. J. A.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Churchman. Sir Arthur C.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Oakley, T.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Haslam, Henry C.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A, D.

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Percy. Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Collox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Perring, Sir William George

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Hills, Major John Walter

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Hilton, Cecil

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Hohler Sir Gerald Fitzroy

    Pilcher, G.

    Couper, J. B.

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Courtauld, Major J. 8.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Preston, William

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester. Crewe)

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Ramsden, E.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Crookshank, Col. C. d. W. (Berwick)

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Remer, J. R.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hurd, Percy A,

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Spender Clay, Colonel H.

    Wells, S. R.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    Rye, F. G.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Salmon, Major 1.

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Styles, Captain H. W.

    Withers, John James

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Womersley, W. J.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Wood, R C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Savery, S. S.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel.(Renfrew, W.)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingtton-on-Hull)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Major The Marquess of Titchfield and Sir Victor Warrender.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Henderson, T, (Glasgow)

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    Amnion, Charles George

    Hirst, G. H.

    Scurr, John

    Baker, J, (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Sexton, James

    Baker, Walter

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Barnes, A.

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Shinwell, E.

    Barr, J.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Batey, Joseph

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Smillie, Robert

    Bellamy, A.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Briant, Frank

    Kennedy, T.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Broad, F. A.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Bromfield, William

    Lansbury, George

    Strauss, E. A.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sullivan, J.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Lawson, John James

    Sutton, J. E.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lea, F.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Compton, Joseph

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Connolly, M.

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Cove, W. G.

    Lowth, T.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Lunn, William

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Dalton, Hugh

    MacDonald, Ht. Hon. J. H. (Aberavon)

    Townend, A. E.

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Mackinder, W.

    Viant, S. P.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Day, Harry

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Dennison, R.

    March, S.

    Warne. G. H.

    Dunnico, H.

    Maxton, James

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Montague, Frederick

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Morris, R. H.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

    Gardner, J, P.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

    Mosley, Sir Oswald

    Welsh, J. C.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Naylor, T. E.

    Westwood, J.

    Gillett, George M.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Greenwood. A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Paling, W.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Potts, John S.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Wright, W.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Riley, Ben

    Hardle, George D.

    Ritson, J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Harris, Percy A.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Whiteley.

    The CHAIRMAN then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Questions on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the Business to be concluded at half-
    past Seven of the Clock at this day's Sitting.
    Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The committee divided: Ayes, 251; Noes, 132.

    Division No. 75.]

    AYES.

    [7.40 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Albery, Irving James

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Atkinson, C.

    Gates, Percy

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Balfour, George (Hamstead)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Balnial, Lord

    Glyn, Major fl. G. C.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Goff, Sir Park

    Oakley, T.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Grace, John

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Bennett, A. J,

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Grattan-Doyle, S'r N.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Berry, Sir George

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Bevan, S. J.

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K,

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Perring, Sir William George

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Pilcher, G.

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Brass, Captain W.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Hanbury, C.

    Preston, William

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Harland, A.

    Ramsden, E.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Remer, J. R.

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'ld., Hexham)

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Buckingham, sir H.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Rye, F. G.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Salmon, Major I.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Cayzer Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Sandeman, N- Stewart

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Sanders. Sir Robert A.

    Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Savery, S. S.

    Christie, J. A.

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Churchman. Sir Arthur C.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Colfox, Major William Phillips

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Smithers Waldron

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Somerville. A. A. (Windsor)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Couper, J. B.

    Kindersley, Major Guy M.

    Streatfelld, Captain S. R.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Lamb, J. 0.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Lougher, Lewis

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen. South)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. sir Richard Harman

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Davies, Maj. Geo F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kinglton-on-Hull)

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Maitland. Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Wells, S. R.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    White. Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Milne. J. S. Wardlaw-

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Evans. Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Withers, John James

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Wolmer, viscount

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Womersley, W J.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Forestler-walker, Sir L.

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Forrest, W.

    Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

    Wood, Sir s. Hill- (High Peak)

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Nail. Colonel Sir Joseph

    Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Major the Marquess of Tichfield and Sir Victor Warrender.

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    2712

    2713

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Scurr, John

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Sexton, James

    Amman, Charles George

    Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

    Hudson, J. H. (Hudderefield).

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Baker, Walter

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Shinwell, E.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Barr, J.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Slesser, sir Henry H.

    Batey, Joseph

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Smillie, Robert

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

    Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)

    Bellamy, A.

    Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Kelly, W. T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Bewerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Kennedy, T.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Brlant, Frank

    Ken worthy. Lt. Com. Hon. Joseph M

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Broad, F. A.

    Lansbury, George

    Strauss, E. A.

    Bromfield, William

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sullivan, J.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Lawson, John James

    Sutton, J. E.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Butt)

    Lee, F.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Compton, Joseph

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Connolly, M.

    Lowth, T.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cove, W. G.

    Lunn, William

    Tomlinson, R, p.

    Crawfurd, H. E,

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Townend, A. E.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Mackinder, W.

    Vlant, S. P.

    Davies, Ellis (Denblgh, Denblgh)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Day, Harry

    March, S.

    Warne, G. H.

    Dennison, R.

    Maxton, James

    Watts-Morgan, Lt. Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Dunnico, H.

    Montague, Frederick

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Morris, R. H.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Gardner, J. P.

    Mosley, Sir Oswald

    Welsh, J. C.

    George, Rt. Hon, David Lloyd

    Naylor, T. E.

    Westwood, J.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Oliver, George Harold

    Whiteley, W.

    Gillett, George M.

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Paling, W.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Wilton, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Potts, John S.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Wright, W.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Riley, Ben

    Hardle, George D.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W, Bromwich)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Harris, Percy A.

    Runclman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

    Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. T. Henderson.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    CLAUSE 6.—(Guardians' committees and sub-committees.)
    Amendment made:
    In page 6, line 9, at the end, insert the words:
    "and in appointing such persons regard shall be had to the desirability of including persons who are members of Poor Law
    authorities immediately before the appointed day, and other persons of experience in the matters to be dealt with by the committee."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
    Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 244; Noes, 128.

    Division No. 76.]

    AYES.

    [7.49 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bird. E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J

    Albery, Irving James

    Bowater, Colonel Sir T. Vansittart

    Christie, J. A.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Brass, Captain W.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Astor, Viscountess

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Collox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Atkinson, C.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Colman, N C. D.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Balfour. George (Hampstead)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Cooper, A. Dull

    Balniel, Lord

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Couper, J. B.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Bennett, A. J.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Bentinck. Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Cassels, J. D.

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Berry, Sir George

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Bevan, S, J.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Crookthank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Culver well, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Curzon, Captain viscount

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Davies, Or. Vernon

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Ropner, Major L.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, f.)

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Can't)

    Ruggles Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Rye, F. G.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Kindersley, Major Guy M.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Everard, w Lindsay

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Savery, S. S.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Falle, Sir Bertram G

    Lougher, Lewis

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W)

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Forrest, W.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Macmillan, Captain H,

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Galbraith, J. F. w.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Gates, Percy

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Glyn, Major R. Q. C.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Goff, Sir Park

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Grace, John

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Sugden, Sir Willfrid

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hall)

    Hammersley, S. S

    Newton. Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Hanbury, C.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Harland, A.

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Wells, S. R.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Oakley, T.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Withers, John James

    Henn, Sir Sydney H

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Wolmer Viscount

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Perring, Sir William George

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Hilton, Cecil

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frame)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Holt, Capt. H. P.

    Pitcher, G.

    Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Preston, William

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Home, Rt. Hon. sir Robert S.

    Ramsden, E.

    Captain Margesson and Sir Victor Warrender.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Remer, J. R.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Cluse, W. S.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Compton, Joseph

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Connolly, M.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Baker, Walter

    Cove. W. G.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Crewfurd, H. E.

    Hardle, George D.

    Barr, J.

    Davies, Ellis (Denblgh, Denblgh)

    Harris, Percy A.

    Batey, Joseph

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Day, Harry

    Hirst, G. H.

    Bellamy, A.

    Dennison, R.

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Dunnico, H.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Hudson, J H. (Huddersfield)

    Briant, Frank

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Unlver.)

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Broad, F. A.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Bromfield, William

    Gibbins, Joseph

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Gillett, George M.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Kelly, W. T.

    2716

    2717

    Kennedy, T.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Potts, John S.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Lansbury, George

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Lawrence, Susan

    Riley, Ben

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Lawson, John James

    Ritson, J.

    Townend, A. E,

    Lee, F.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    Viant, S. P.

    Lindley. F. W.

    Runclman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Scurr, John

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Lowth, T.

    Sexton, James

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Lunn, William

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Mackinder, W.

    Shinwell, E.

    Welsh, J. C.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Westwood, J.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Whiteley, W.

    March, S.

    Smillie, Robert

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Maxton, James

    Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.|

    Montague, Frederick

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Morris, R. H.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Strauss, E. A.

    Wright, W.

    Owen, Major G.

    Sullivan, J.

    Paling, W.

    Sutton, J. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Taylor, R. A.

    Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. T. Henderson.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    CLAUSE 7.—(Approval of schemes.)
    Amendment made:
    In page 7, line 32, at the end, insert the words:
    "and in the case of a scheme submitted by a county council shall send a copy of the
    scheme to the council of each district wholly or partly within the county."—[Sir K. Wood.]
    Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 246; Noes, 130.

    Division No. 77.]

    AYES.

    [7.59 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Christie, J. A.

    Gates, Percy

    Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Albery, Irving James

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Goff. Sir Park

    Applin, Colonel Ft. V. K.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Grace, John

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Grattan-Doyle, sir N.

    Atkinson, C.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Balniel, Lord

    Couper, J. B.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Bennett, A. 1.

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Berry, Sir George

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Hanbury, C.

    Bevan, S. J.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Harland, A.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencaster)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Brass, Captain W.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Briscoe. Richard George

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Edwards. J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Brooke, Brigadier General C. R. 1.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Hilton, Cecil

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Evans. Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Holt, Capt. H. P.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. sir William James

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Burton, Colonel H. W,

    Fade, Sir Bertram G.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Cassels, J. D

    Forrest, W.

    Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Jones, Sir G. w. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Oakley, T.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    O'Connor, T. S. (Bedford, Luton)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Kindersley, Major Guy M.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Streatfeild, Captain S. fl.

    King. Commodore Henry Douglas

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Styles, Captain H. W.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Perring, Sir William George

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon, Sir Philip

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Pllcher, G.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Lougher, Lewis

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Luce, Major-Gen. sir Richard Harman

    Preston, William

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Ramsden, E.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Macdonald, Capt. P. O. (I. of W.)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Remer, J. R.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Rice. Sir Frederick

    War-render, Sir Victor

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Marriott. Sir J A. R.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Wells, S. R.

    Milne. J. S. Wardlaw-

    Russell. Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Rye, F. G.

    Williams, A M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Mitchell, W. Fool (Saftron Walden)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Mitchell, Sir w. Lane (Streatham)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Wilson, Sir Charles H. (Leeds, Centrl.)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. R. C. (Ayr)

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Withers, John James

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

    Savery, S. S.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W)

    Wood, E, (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Neville. Sir Reginald J.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

    Newman. Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Worthington, Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Smithers, Waldron

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Captain Margesson and Mr. Penny.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hardle, George D.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Harney, E. A.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Ammon, Charles George

    Harris, Percy A.

    Potts, John S.

    Baker, J. (Wolverhamton, Bilston)

    Henderson, Right Hon A. (Burnley)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Baker, Walter

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Riley, Ben

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Ritson, J.

    Barr, J.

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    Batey, Joseph

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Runciman, Hilda {Cornwall, St, lves)

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    Bellamy, A.

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Scurr, John

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Sexton, James

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Briant, Frank

    Johnston. Thomas (Dundee)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Broad, F. A.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Shinwell, E.

    Bromfield. William

    Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Kennedy, T.

    Smillie, Robert

    Charleton, H. C.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)

    Cluse. W. S.

    Lansbury, George

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Compton, Joseph

    Lawrence, Susan

    Stamford, T. W.

    Connolly, M.

    Lawson, John James

    Stephen, Campbell

    Cove, W. G.

    Lee, F.

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Strauss, E. A.

    Davies. Ellis (Denblgh, Denblgh)

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Sullivan, J.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Day, Harry

    Lowth, T.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Dennison, R.

    Lunn, William

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Dunnico, H.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Mackinder, W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Unlver.)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Gardner, J. P.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    March, S.

    Townend, A. E.

    Gillett, George M.

    Maxton, Jamas

    Viant, S. P.

    Graham. Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.)

    Montague, Frederick

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Morris, R. H.

    Walsh, Rt. Hon Stephen

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Naylor, T. E.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Grundy, T. W.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Owen, Major G.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Paling, W.

    Welsh, J. C.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Westwood, J.

    2720

    2721

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Wright, W.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Whiteley.

    CLAUSE 8.—(Acquisition of land.)
    Mr. W. THORNE: On a point of Order. Are we to understand that the Government accept the Amendment standing in the name of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood)—
    In page 8, line 32, at the end, to add the words:
    "Provided nevertheless that, when acquiring land compulsorily, the arbitrator
    shall take into account when possible the present gross assessable value of such land for rating purposes."
    The CHAIRMAN: Under the Order of the House, the Government could not accept the Amendment.
    Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 241; Noes, 125.

    Division No. 78.]

    AYES.

    [8.8 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Albery, Irving James

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Holt, Capt. H. P.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Apsley, Lord

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W

    Curzon, Captain viscount

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, 8.)

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Balniel, Lord

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Bennett, A. J.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Kindersley, Major Guy M.

    Berry, Sir George

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Bevan, S. J.

    Ersklne, James Malcolm Montelth

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Knox, sir Alfred

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    L'ster, Cunlifle-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Falls, Sir Charles F.

    Loder, J. de v.

    Brass, Captain W.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Lougher, Lewis

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Forrest, W.

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Herman

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Foster, sir Harry S.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    MacRobert, Alexander M,

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steal-

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Gates. Percy

    Manningham-Butler, Sir Mervyn

    Sull, Rt. Hon. sir William James

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Glyn, Major R. 6. C.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Carver. Major W. H.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Cassels, t. D.

    Grace, John

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Cautley, Sir Henry 8,

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Charterls, Brigadier-General J.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Christie, J. A.

    Gunston, Captain D. W

    Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Cobb. Sir Cyril

    Hanbury, C.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Harland, A.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Colfox, Major Win. Phillips

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrst'ld.)

    Cooper, A. Dud

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Oakley, T.

    Couper, J. B.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Perring, Sir William George

    Savery, S. S.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Scott, Ht. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. O. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Pilcher, G.

    Sheffield. Sir Berkeley

    Warrender, Sir victor

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Shepperson, e. W.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Wells, S. R.

    Preston, William

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Ramsden, E,

    Smithers, Waldron

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Remer, J. R.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Stanley. Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G.F.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Stoff, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Withers, John James

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Ropner, Major L.

    Sueter, Bear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Womersley, W. J.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut-Colonel E. A.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Rye, F. G.

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Thomson, F. c. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney).

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Tomlinson, R. p.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Mr. Penny and Captain Wallace.

    NOES.

    Adamson. Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hirst, G. H.

    Scurr, John

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Sexton, James

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Shaw. Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Baker, Walter

    Hudson. J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillary)

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Shinwell, E

    Barnes, A.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Barr, J.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Batey, Joseph

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Smillie, Robert

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Jones, W. N, (Carmarthen)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Bellamy, A.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Snowden. Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Kennedy, T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Briant, Frank

    Lansbury, George

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Broad, F. A.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Strauss, E. A.

    Bromfield, William

    Lawson, John James

    Sullivan, J.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Lee, F.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Lindley, F, W.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Cluse. W. S.

    Lowth, T.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Compton, Joseph

    Lunn, William

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Connolly, M.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cove. W. G

    Mackinder, W.

    Townend, A. E.

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Viant, s. P.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughion)

    Malone. C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Day, Harry

    March, S.

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Dennison, R.

    Maxton, James

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Dunnico, H.

    Montague, Frederick

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Morris, R. H.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

    Gardner, J. P.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Naylor, T. E.

    Welsh, J. C.

    Gillett, George M.

    Oliver. George Harold

    Westwood, J.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.)

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Paling, W.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Williams, T. (York. Don Valley)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Potts, John S.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Wright, W.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Riley, Ben

    Hardle, George D.

    Ritson, J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Harney, E. A.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Whiteley.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

    CLAUSE 9.—(Disqualifications.)
    Mr. LONGBOTTOM: I beg to move, in page 8, to leave out from the word "if," in line 35, to the word "poor," in line 37, and to insert instead thereof the words "and so long as he is in receipt of."
    This Amendment is self-explanatory, and is introduced because we on these
    2724
    benches feel that Clause 9 is reactionary in its suggestion so far as local government representation is concerned. As the law exists at the present time, a member of a board of guardians who happens to be so unfortunate as to have to receive Poor Law relief is disqualified—and, may I say, rightly disqualified—from being a member of that

    2725
    board of guardians; but, under the Local Government Bill, the duties which hitherto have been attached to boards of guardians are now to be transferred to county councils and county borough councils, and it is suggested in Clause 9 that in future any member of a county council or of a county borough council who has to receive Poor Law relief shall be disqualified from remaining a member of that council, with this further disqualification, that he is not to be allowed to remain a member of the council if he has received Poor Law relief during the past 12 months.
    We suggest that that disqualification is, to say the least, most unreasonable. We agree that, if a man is receiving outdoor relief, it should not be competent for him at the same time to remain a member of the council which is giving him that relief, but, having regard to the fact that in future the duties of boards of guardians will be undertaken by bodies which are much larger numerically, and also to the fact that the man who is receiving Poor Law relief may not be a member of the Public Assistance Committee of that council, it is a severe hardship to disqualify him from being able to be a member of the council because he has received Poor Law relief within the previous 12 months. It has been said, and rightly, that there is a great and growing need throughout the whole of this country for all men and women to take a more active interest in civic affairs, and I know of nothing which will act more as a deterrent to bringing the best people forward to take that interest than Clause 9 of this Bill. May I say, too, that, as a member of a local authority, it has been my pleasure to listen to the Minister of Health as the chief speaker at many of the conferences I have attended, and to hear the wonderful plea that he has invariably put forward that all men and women should take an interest in this great work of local government; and when I come to the House of Commons and listen to the right hon. Gentleman introducing this Local Government Bill, may I say again, without offence, that the Minister of Health in the country addressing conferences is a totally different gentleman from what he is in the House of Commons.
    The CHAIRMAN: This is a little wide of the question of the disqualification.
    Mr. LONGBOTTOM: I am sorry, Sir, to be out of order, but I am simply using that as an illustration of what we think about many of the suggestions contained in this Bill, and particularly Clause 9. I want to suggest to the Government that, if they are satisfied with disqualifying a member of a county council or a county borough council only for the time during which he is actually receiving Poor Law relief, they will be doing nothing to undermine that purity which we rightly claim is the basis of local government service throughout this country. It is, however, wrong, and it is a reactionary suggestion, that men and women in this country who are living under abnormal conditions, so far as trade depression is concerned, should, by Clause 9 of this Bill, be denied the right of becoming members of local authorities simply because they are victims of unemployment and have to come to the Poor Law to enable them to eke out an existence. I suggest to the Government that they have nothing to fear in accepting this Amendment. They need not fear that, by giving every man and woman the opportunity of becoming interested in local government work, they will be doing anything to undermine the foundations of that claim which we invariably make that our local government service is the best throughout the land.
    Mr. RILEY: I support the Amendment on the ground that the disqualification in the Clause is unnecessarily stringent. In some cases it may not be for more than a year, but obviously if a person has received poor relief on 2nd November, 1930, and there is an election on the following 1st November, he will not be eligible until the year following to become a councillor of his county or county borough. Our Amendment would limit the disqualification to a person who may at any time actually be receiving relief. That, we think, would meet the merits of the case. I think we might also argue that the object of the Government could have been adequately met by limiting the disqualification to persons serving on the public assistance committee. No one would quarrel with the general principle that one ought not to receive relief from a committee of which

    2727
    one is a member, and without depriving citizens of their right of public service, the object of the Government could have been met by limiting the disqualification to persons who happen to serve on the public assistance committee.
    Further, I want to ask the Minister to elucidate what really will be some of the implications if the Clause goes through as it stands. The objection to the Clause is not that it makes poverty an actual crime, but that it puts a stigma on the entirely undeserved misfortune of poverty, and it puts that stigma upon tens of thousands of citizens who may came under its ban at any time. There are tens of thousands of men who, through no fault of their own, are suffering the disadvantages of unemployment, many of them for two and three years in industries in which there has been no chance of getting employment. The Clause lays down that if any of these, who may be steady, sober, intelligent citizens, should be unfortunate enough to have received poor relief, they have the rights of citizenship taken away. Does that imply that if a man's wife or children receive assistance, he will be disqualified? The Clause says:
    "A person shall after the appointed day be disqualified for becoming or being a member of the council of a county or county borough if he has within twelve months before becoming or has since becoming such a member received Poor relief except that he shall not be so disqualified by reason only that he or a member of his family has received medical or surgical treatment or been an inmate of an institution for that purpose."
    Let me take what might be a common case, and I will ask the Minister to interpret what the words mean. Take the case of a man who may have a wayward son or daughter, leaving home and resorting to vagrancy, and receiving relief as a vagrant. What is going to be the position of the father or mother? The fact that the Clause mentions medical and surgical treatment implies that there are other forms of relief which will disqualify the father from the right to citizenship. We ought really to know how far the Clause is going before we assent to it.
    Sir K. WOOD: The hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Longbottom) spoke very clearly and incisively in moving the Amendment. He thought it right and
    2728
    just that a person in receipt of poor relief ought not to serve as a member of a local authority, but the quarrel he had was with the further extension, which says that the disqualification should continue for the further period of 12 months. The hon. Member who followed him was far more confused, and certainly presented very inconsistent arguments in support of his case. First; he said he agreed with the Mover. Then he thought the disqualification ought only to apply—
    Mr. RILEY: I think I said there was something to be said for debarring a person who actually is in receipt of relief.
    Sir K. WOOD: What that means only the hon. Member himself knows. I am assuming that be endeavoured to express some sort of concurrence in the views of the Mover. Whether he did or not, I will admit that he does agree with the Mover when he says it is not proper that a man in actual receipt of relief should be a member of the authority. 13tit then he went further, and said that in any event he agreed that the individual ought not to be a member of the public assistance committee. Then, to add to our confusion about his argument, he said all this was a stigma. The fact that a man was in receipt of poor relief was a misfortune, and it was a disgraceful thing that in such circumstances a member of an authority was to be deprived of his citizenship. What he meant only the hon. Member himself knows. I will take the case that has been put by the Mover. There is a good deal to be said for his point of view, but it is idle to talk, as the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley) did. He alluded to the receipt of relief as a stigma. It is an ordinary common-sense precaution—
    Mr. WEBB: It is a disgrace.
    Sir K. WOOD: The right hon. Gentleman does not agree with the Mover of the Amendment.
    Mr. WEBB: The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that he is misquoting me. I did not say whether I agreed or disagreed. I merely spoke to a question of fact. It is a disgrace to have received poor relief. The right hon. Gentleman knows it, and he is wasting the time of the Committee.
    Sir K. WOOD: As a matter of fact, I heard the hon. Member for Bow and

    2729
    Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) say that, so far from being a disgrace, the fact that a man was in receipt of poor relief meant that he was only receiving something in return for citizenship and that such a man had contributed in one form or another just as much as any other person in this country.
    Mr. WEBB: The right hon. Gentleman thinks it is a disgrace. Again the right hon. Gentleman is wasting the time of the Committee. As a matter of fact, I did not say what I thought about it; I said it is, in fact, a disgrace. The right hon. Gentleman knows it.
    Sir K. WOOD: I do not think that it is a disgrace, as a matter of fact, and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley thinks that it is not a disgrace.
    Mr. WEBB: It does not matter what he thinks it is.
    Sir K. WOOD: He does not think that there is any disgrace in receiving poor relief. What we are following up here—and I am sorry that there is so much excitement about it—is merely Section 7 of the Poor Law Act, 1927. The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment, and certainly the hon. Gentleman who seconded it, thought that it was some extraordinary change in the law, but we are simply re-enacting here the Poor Law Act. We are transferring, of course, the functions of the Poor Law guardians to the other authorities, and that transfer is made from the considerations which have been mentioned by the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment, because he has agreed with the principle that people in receipt of relief ought not at the same time to be dispensing philanthropy. It is for these reasons, and not because there is any malice, disgrace or anything of that kind behind this proposal, that we are re-enacting the principle of the law. All I say to the Committee is that as far as the Government are concerned we are simply endeavouring to interpret the present law in view of the changed circumstances, and I hope that the Committee will see that as far as any departure is made we are endeavouring to preserve the intention of the present law.
    Mr. K. GRIFFITH: The Parliamentary Secretary is evidently so anxious not to face the real difficulty which has been put to him from the benches above the Gangway that he has invented a discrepancy between the Mover and the Seconder of the Amendment which exists nowhere save in his own mind. It is one thing to say that it is a practical point to disqualify a man at the time he is in receipt of relief. It is merely like saying that a man shall not vote upon matters in which he is personally financially concerned. But if you continue it after that condition has ceased, you are imposing a stigma, and there is no ether way of treating it. When that point is realised, it will be seen that there is no distinction whatever between the grounds put forward by the Mover and the Seconder of the Amendment. The fact remains that by continuing it for 12 months you are perpetuating the whole penal idea of the Poor Law, the idea that instead of this being a form of relief as relief should be understood, helping a lame dog over a stile, it is the crack of a whip at a bad dog instead. That is the way in which it is being treated and in which it is being perpetuated. I do not say that it has not existed in legislation before this Bill. A great many things that ought not to be have existed in our legislation before this Measure. This is being perpetuated, and it ought not to be, and we ought to protest. If by the main provisions of this legislation we were sweeping away the old Poor Law and leaving upon the Poor Law only the broken people, the flotsam and jetsam, the down-and-outs, the people, who, perhaps through misfortune or whatever the cause might be, were not perhaps the ideal people to be on a council, there would be something to be said for the disqualification. But if you have the old Poor Law remaining in essence, it is not these people alone who are left under its provision. Anyone at any moment may find himself in that position and it will be a misfortune to continue a disqualification of this kind for 12 months. In the place which I represent it is a pure accident whether a man is able to continue under unemployment benefit or go through the door of the Poor Law. It is a pure accident, therefore, whether he becomes disqualified or remains qualified, and we should

    2731
    consider it on the basis that every one of these people was disqualified. In that spirit we ought to support the Amendment.
    Mr. SEXTON: I sincerely regret that the right hon. Gentleman cannot accept this Amendment. To me it is most contemptible that anyone should be denied this privilege. Here is a man who is selected by his peers, so to speak, because they have every confidence in him, they believe that he has the capacity to represent their opinions on the local council. He is sent there because he is their choice; because they consider that he is just the man to give expression to their views. It has been said that it is a disgrace to receive Poor Law relief. I think that it is a disgrace not to the man himself, but to the damnable economic system that puts a representative in the position, after he has been elected by his fellows to do their work, of having to seek assistance through becoming unemployed during his term of office. A man may fall out of employment, and perhaps be out of employment until he has exhausted what is called "the dole." Having exhausted that, he goes to the Poor Law. The son of the same man who has contributed to unemployment insurance and is out of a job, may go on tramp and apply for Poor Law relief. That fact alone is likely to disqualify the father. It is disgraceful. There is no other word to describe it. It is not the fault, of the man but the fault of the economic conditions which place him in a position which demoralises him. He is willing and anxious to work, but he cannot get work. He is chosen by his fellows to represent them on a public body and because he becomes the victim of a system which denies him the opportunity to work, that is the reward he gets. Under such a system a man is driven down and down to his death and then he is jogged along in a handcart, a pauper whom nobody owns. These are the inherent rights of the British electors to which the right hon. Gentleman is going to appeal. I hope that he will get his deserts.
    Mr. MARCH: I desire to support the Amendment, and further to point out the difficulties which arise for many men. It is a disgrace that when a man has been elected by the burgesses of his district if something befalls him which is unfore-
    2732
    seen, or something befalls a member of his family, he may be disqualified. The hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) has referred to the case of a son or daughter who has left home and met with misfortune. A case was brought to my notice during the last week or so of a young woman who had been in service and who through some misfortune had been put out of employment. She went home to her widowed mother and tried to live there, but she was unable to do so because of the want of proper accommodation. Therefore, she went to stay with some friends, and whilst seeking employment, in which search she failed, she was taken ill on the wayside and conveyed to an institution. In that case, if she had been the daughter of a man who happened to be a member of the council while she was seeking Poor Law relief, he would have been disqualified, although he might know nothing about the circumstances of the girl.
    Mr. KELLY: That is provided for.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It is in this Clause.
    Mr. MARCH: I have not read all the Bill. When we meet with circumstances where a man is disqualified because his son or daughter or his wife receives relief, it is hard upon the person who is disqualified, particularly if his wife has had to seek relief. The Government have never made proper provision for the case of a man who is thrown out of employment and remains out of employment for many months, and has to seek assistance from the guardians because his unemployment benefit has ceased. If the man in such a case goes to the guardians when they are under the council, he will be disqualified, not only for the period during which he may receive assistance but for 12 months. That is a disgrace and ought not to be permitted. It seems that the Government are doing all they possibly can in all their legislation to penalise the downtrodden and the unfortunate. They are trying their level best to crush those who are down, instead of trying to lift them up.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: We are accustomed to hearing ourselves described as inhuman monsters, lost to all feeling, and to hearing hon. Members opposite suggest that there is no outrage which

    2733
    we would not commit in driving the under-dog deeper down into the mire. If we thought that hon. Members opposite believed what they were saying, some of us would be a little concerned about it. The fact is that hon. Members opposite do not believe what they are saying. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I say that to their credit. They do not believe what they are saying. Some hon. Members talk so hastily upon these matters that it is impossible to give full weight to what they say. The hon. Member who has just spoken gave, as an illustration of his argument, the case of a young woman who had received medical or surgical aid in a time of necessity.
    Mr. WEBB: He did not say that.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The right hon. Gentleman opposite is very fond of interrupting. He has had four opportunities in this debate of rising to make a contribution. If he wishes to make one now I will sit down, and let him; if not, perhaps he will allow me to continue. The hon. Member gave as an illustration of his argument the case of a young woman who in time of necessity received medical or surgical aid.
    Mr. MARCH: I did not say anything about surgical. I said that she had to go into an institution.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The hon. Member said that she was not feeling well and that she went into an institution. Is not that medical aid?
    Mr. MARCH: I do not suppose it is surgical.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The hon. Member does not do himself justice in taking objection to my representation of his argument. His illustration was that she went in to receive medical aid.
    Mr. MARCH: Yes.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: If the hon. Member had read the next two lines of the Clause he would have seen that, for the first time in the history of the Poor Law, we have made provision for such a case. No longer will the receipt of such medical aid be a disqualification, such as it has been up to the present time in one small branch of
    2734
    the public service. That is something to the credit of the inhuman monsters who are perpetrating this iniquity. The right hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb), who has interrupted the Parliamentary Secretary and myself with so much vigour, says that the receipt of Poor Law relief is a disgrace. He states that as if it was a question of fact, just as is the question of whether a man has a black face or a white face. He is much too learned not to know the difference between a matter of opinion and a matter of fact.
    Mr. WEBB: I do.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: He says that it is a disgrace that a man should receive Poor Law relief.
    Mr. WEBB: The law does.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The law does not say so. The receipt of Poor Law relief may be a disgrace; that is to, say, that if a person has not served the public community properly by helping himself, it may be a disgrace to go to the community to support him, when lie ought to have supported himself; but on this side of the House we do not say that it is a disgrace.
    Mr. RILEY: You penalise him.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: No, we do not penalise him. I would ask hon. Members opposite to consider a principle which I will suggest to them. Is it not a good principle that a man should not be responsible for the administration of funds in which he has an interest? I should he very much surprised to hear that hon. Members opposite object to that as a principle. If we are agreed upon the principle, the only question is how we shall put it into practical application. Hon. Members opposite go this far, that as long as a man is in receipt of relief he is to be disqualified. I should like to know what that means. Does it mean that a man who is going to receive Poor Law relief, and knows that he is to do so, shall sit upon the committee which is going to give him that relief next week 7 Under our provision he can, but I am trying to see how the principle will work out. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for East Ham, North (Miss Lawrence) must not imitate the right hon. Member for Seaham and interrupt.
    Mr. WEBB: You are asking a question.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes, I know; and the right hon. Gentleman should answer it at the proper time, not at the wrong time.
    Mr. WEBB: The proper time is now.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Let hon. Members opposite consider the application of the principle upon which we are all agreed. They say, and I say also, that a man ought not to be responsible for administering public money in which he has an interest. They say that he is not to be responsible for administering public money while he is in receipt of relief. Does that mean that a man is not to be responsible in the week in which he has received the relief, or on the day he has received the relief, or for how long is the disqualification to operate?
    Mr. WEBB: We accept your position—
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly make his speech?
    Mr. WEBB: I responded to the hon. and learned Member's inquiry. He waited for an answer.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Oh, no.
    Mr. WEBB: He has now sat down in order that the answer should be given. The answer is that the law at present, with the support of the Attorney-General, does not disqualify a man immediately before he has received relief. It is when he receives relief that he is disqualified. That position we do not desire to disturb. I have now responded to the hon. and learned Member's inquiry.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: And I am delighted the right hon. Gentleman has responded, because he has admitted my principle. He agrees with me that a man is not to be responsible for the administration of public funds when he has received relief.
    Mr. WEBB: Yes.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Then the only question is how long that disquali-
    2736
    fication is to last. The right hon. Gentleman I suppose would have it last for a week—
    Mr. WEBB: No.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: How long?
    Mr. WEBB: I am very happy to comply with these requests of the hon. and learned Gentleman. I would have it last in accordance with the principle suggested by the hon. and learned Gentleman—as long as he has that interest in receipt of relief.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes, but a man receives that relief once a week, or once a day—in the case of out-relief it is once a week. Does his disqualification last for one week?
    Mr. WEBB: That is the law.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I am asking what hon. Members opposite think should he the law.
    Mr. WEBB: Again I respond to the invitation of the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
    The CHAIRMAN: I really think this is becoming too conversational. The hon. and learned Gentleman had better finish his speech and then the right hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) can make his. We do not want to have it bisected and quadrisected in this way.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I repectfully agree, but the right. hon. Gentleman was so anxious to answer the question that I thought it was more polite to sit down. It has come down to this, that it is not a disgrace for a man to receive Poor Law relief, and the right hon. Gentleman and I, indeed all of us, agree that it is only a question of how long disqualification shall last.
    Mr. WEBB Mr. WEBB indicated assent.
    9.0 p.m.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I am delighted to see the right hon. Gentleman nod his head. All these attacks upon the inhuman character of the Government have come down to this, that we think that this principle should be put into operation for a rather longer period than hon. Members opposite think it right a man should be disqualified. They agree with

    2737
    disqualification for a short period; we say that it shall be for a longer period, the principle being that if a man is to receive Poor Law relief he is in a category in which he may likely be again and, therefore, for 12 months such a person shall be disqualified because he is a person who may at any moment be responsible for the administration of public funds in which he has an interest. We say that this is a good principle. We have put it in this Clause with modifications which are humane, and which appear in our legislation for the first time. We think that the attacks which have been made upon our good nature and humanity are absolutely unfounded.
    Mr. KELLY: I do not apply that term to the hon. and learned Attorney-General and his friends, but I am also almost inclined to do so after the concluding words of his speech, which, if they meant anything, mean that there is no one in this country who ought to be allowed to sit on any of these councils anyone who is potentially an applicant for relief should not sit upon these bodies. Can the hon. and learned Gentleman give me an assurance as to every person in this country being in a position 12 months from now of not having to ask for relief?
    Sir R. BANKS: We shall all be in that position if you come in.
    Mr. KELLY: Certainly, if we allowed the lawyers to have full play we should get into bankruptcy much quicker. The Parliamentary Secretary made great play of the differences between the speeches of the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment. There was no need for him to take advantage of apparent differences; and I am quite willing to make him the present of another. I would refuse to disqualify those who are in receipt of relief. I say that without hesitation. Anyone who is in receipt of Poor Law relief is allowed to become a Member of this House; and they are entitled to sit in the other House and decide upon questions affecting the administration of public funds. But, although they may sit here, they must not sit on these local councils. One would imagine that this disqualification is because the person who is in receipt of relief would have a voice in saying how much relief the particular individual
    2738
    should receive. The Parliamentary Secretary knows that that is not the case. There is a stated scale of relief; and there is no question of the vote of a particular individual affecting the amount they receive. Through no fault of their own, but because of the conditions prevailing at the moment—
    The CHAIRMAN: This Amendment does not help that class. The hon. Member appears to be arguing against the Amendment.
    Mr. KELLY: I am prepared to go further than the Amendment, I admit. I want to give the right hon. Gentlemen opposite the chance of finding another difference in the opinions of those on this side of the Committee. It is an injustice to an individual to be disqualified. As has been said, it is not disgraceful to receive relief, but it is made disgraceful and a degradation by the penalties that are put upon it here. A person can beg, borrow and steal, provided he is not found out. When I say that I know that the Attorney-General is watching me closely. Such a person can continue as a member, but if he receives sonic Poor Law assistance his position is different. I would like to see all disqualifications removed for those individuals who have to resort to Poor Law relief. I have seen men in many of the industries of the country. They were fairly comfortably placed, but as they went down the scale, and as the Government's method of administering or mal-administering the unemployment benefit deprived them of that to which I consider they were entitled, they have been obliged to resort to the Poor Law. They were no worse than before; they were as honest and as clear in their judgment as ever before, not thinking of themselves or endeavouring to line their own pockets by membership of this particular public body. Then, although they have all the qualifications that, fit them for the position, into this Bill there is inserted a disqualification which states "Because you are so poor, because you have committed the crime of poverty, you have rendered yourself unfit to be a representative of the public on this local authority." That is disgraceful. While I wish that the Amendment had gone further, I support it now in the hope that in the near future we shall be able to remove all the disqualifications.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: I ask the learned Attorney-General how far he would push his theory about people participating in relief to themselves. I suppose it would not go as far as emoluments? You might get in this House half-pay Army or Navy officers. If there were a Resolution moved from this side to reduce their half-pay, would they be justified in being Members of this House and in voting on that proposition? As far as I know there is nothing to prevent their voting on questions which affect themselves personally. Of course they do vote on such questions. You get Members voting here on the subject of the Income Tax. I say to the Attorney-General with all respect that he is a member of a body that fixes his own salary and his own emoluments. I am not going to say that that is wrong or vicious, but how far does the learned Attorney-General want to push his own theory? According to his theory, if a man receives a few shillings a week, for which he may have paid all his life and for which he is compelled to apply through misfortunte that is not consequent on any action of his own, that man is to be penalised. It is not good enough. As the learned Attorney-General takes some credit to himself and his Government for introducing some slight modification of the hardships of the present Poor Law in regard to medical and surgical treatment, does he not see that after all the Clause that we are seeking to amend is in itself an application of a harsh principle?
    It must be apparent that, generally speaking, men who become members of boards of guardians and public bodies, or who, as in this case, become members of county councils, have to run the gamut fairly well. They must be men of fairly clean morals. They are generally men or women who have lived their lives in the public gaze, and obviously they are not the type of people who would apply for relief except under pressure of extreme circumstances. To penalise them is pushing a theory to an extreme which is not justified by the facts. It is not a question of persons merely as individuals, for the Clause refers to members of their families. How are you to determine that? Suppose that a son is married and maintains a separate establishment. Is he still a member of the family? I do not know how the law deals with the matter. Suppose that he is
    2740
    lodging somewhere else and has left home, and that he falls into misfortunte and is compelled to apply for relief. Is he a member of the family? Where is the line drawn? What does the law say about it? Ultimately the law will have to be interpreted by the Courts. How will the law define the question of a man's family? Is he a member of the family when he is living at home, or when in lodgings, in the county or out of the county, under the authority of the Poor Law or not under its authority? It is a very important point.
    When does a man cease to have control over the members of his family? Are his children members of the family when they have passed the legal age of 21? Must he be penalised for their action when they have passed completely out of his control? What is the definition? It would be extremely interesting to get a reply from the Minister of Health or the Parliamentary Secretary or the learned Attorney-General. I am not asking these questions in any flippant sense, but because there are doubts in my mind as to what the Clause really does mean on these several points. It must be recognised that no man accepts Poor Law relief unless compelled to do so by tragic circumstances which he does not and cannot control. To penalise a clean-living man who has clone his duty by the State and by the community for something which he cannot control, something which arises out of policies pursued by the House of Commons, such as Reparations—[Laughter]—is unfair. Yes, hon. Members can laugh, but there is a heap of poverty in this country to-day caused by policies passed years ago by the House of Commons. That is what we are suffering from now. Therefore I say that the Committee would be well advised to accept this Amendment in the spirit in which it is offered for the purpose of continuing that slight amelioration of which the Government boasts.
    Mr. RENNIE SMITH: The Parliamentary Secretary from time to time shows more than the usual talent for quibbling, and a frivolity which reminds me of a prodigal son dancing on his mother's grave. He has reminded us, as the Attorney-General has reminded us, that under the existing administration of the Poor Law, there is only one

    2741
    disqualification from service as a guardian—that is if a man is, or has been in receipt of Poor Law relief within a period of 12 months. It is now proposed to extend that principle and to apply it not only for Poor Law purposes but for all county council purposes. In effect, if a working man or woman experiences unemployment through causes entirely out of his or her control, and is compelled to have Poor Law relief, then at least 12 months must elapse before that person can become eligible under this Bill to serve on a county council. In addition, there are certain other disqualifying circumstances which have been referred to, relating not to the person himself but to other members of his family. I add my protest to those which have already been made on this Clause, and I hope it is not too late to have this matter reconsidered by the Department on the ground that it does, in essence, perpetuate that very spirit and practice in the Poor Law which we are trying to destroy and extend them to the wider area of county council government.
    Who are the men and women who can best administer the Poor Law? When I was attached to the University of Sheffield, I had to handle men who were students in connection with my tutorial classes and more than one of whom had passed through the harrowing experience of unemployment and had had to apply to the guardians for relief. Are men of this type, just because they have gone through such an experience, to be disqualified from serving on public bodies? Why, that very experience is a supreme qualification for doing the work well. I could understand the point of view that it should he a qualification for membership of a board of guardians or a committee for administering Poor Law relief that, at some time or other in their lives, people had had to pass through the horror of an experience of this kind. How better can you get a just judgment of other men and women in such circumstances; how better can you get the imagination, sympathy and understanding required than by having gone through the experience? The attitude taken up in this Clause is a survival of the spirit of Bumbledom incorporated in the Poor Law administration nearly
    2742
    100 years ago. Imagine British citizens who have been victims of the industrial system having to wait at least 12 months before they can become public servants in this capacity.
    I could understand this proposal better if we were living in time of abounding prosperity, when, perhaps, there would be a 75 per cent, argument that a man out of work was out of work because of defects in his own character. But we have had eight years of unemployment with between 1,000,000 and 2,000,000 people habitually out, of work, and it is generally admitted that the problem is one of a large breakdown in the industrial system at home and abroad. It is the height of folly and madness from the point of view of the public service, to introduce, in such circumstances, a 12 months' disqualifying provision of this kind. If there is any case at all for disqualifying people I can conceive of other types of men and women in this country who are not competent to administer the Poor Law. If there is one type more than another who ought to be disqualified it is the type of person who has never had to earn his own living. There is a strong case for the point of view that, if the Committee want to introduce a discriminatory principle in Poor Law administration, it ought to single out those who have never had to earn their own livelihood. Of all persons in the community, they are the least competent to form a just judgment in regard to Poor Law administration.
    The CHAIRMAN: I do not see how the hon. Member connects this with the Clause or the Amendment.
    Mr. SMITH: I am trying, by way of analogy, to help the Committee to appreciate the folly of this discrimination, but I shall not pursue that line of argument. I content myself by asking the Minister whether he is not prepared to take the view that in the England of 1928, where unemployment has no relation to individual merit of character, and in a case where we are handling not merely Poor Law administration but the whole work of the county councils, he does not think it right to remove this disqualification and prepare the way for a juster conception of Poor Law administration?
    Mr. THURTLE: I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give the Committee a little more explanation of the meaning of this Clause, particularly on the point in relation to members of a person's family being recipients of Poor Law relief. The hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) put the point that, possibly, if some member of the family of a person on a local authority were in receipt of relief, that might make such a person ineligible. Does the Clause bear that meaning? If so, it may lead to very unfair cases of hardship. Take the case of the poor man struggling against adversity, as so many are to-day. While contriving to keep himself and his own immediate family, without resort to the Poor Law, he may have elderly parents who for some reason or other are forced to accept Poor Law relief. In such a case, is it to be understood by this Clause that he will be regarded as a person in receipt of Poor Law relief, and, therefore, disqualified for membership of a local authority?
    Sir K. WOOD: I do not think, in that case, he would. If the hon. Member wishes to pursue the matter, he should look at Section 42 of the Poor Law Act, 1097.
    Mr. MACKINDER: I should like to ask the Attorney-General what is the meaning of the words "or a member of his family," if the whole thing does not suggest that if a member of a man's family has been or is receiving Poor Law "relief it may prejudice his position as a member of a council? I do not understand a great deal about the law but, in the first place, the Clause says only "a person," and later on, when referring to the fact that a man will not he disqualified, it refers to "a 'member of his family." I want an interpretation.
    Mr. WOMERSLEY: It is an alteration of the law.
    Mr. MACKINDER: It may be, but I want an interpretation from the Attorney-General and not from the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley). A definition of the Government's meaning should come from a Government lawyer and not from the representative for Grimsby. The Attorney-General might give a definition or a reason why these absolutely useless
    2744
    words are inserted, unless there is some real reason for it. Like the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Rennie Smith), I could quite understand it if it referred merely and solely to a Poor Law guardian. Then there might be a strong argument why these men should be restrained from giving relief and doing nothing else, but there are hon. Members here who know you might possibly remove some most expert man from doing other work besides giving relief. In my own city of Glasgow, in the work of giving relief on the city council, I know at least half-a-dozen men with regard to whom there are only six weeks of unemployment between them and the workhouse. I know one man who does not average a wage of 20 shillings a week, and who has a wife and family to keep. That man is an expert on various committees of that city council. It is not only wrong but foolish to say that if that man has the painful necessity of coming to the guardians for relief—because no one goes to the guardians for the love of the thing —and to get food for his wife and children, he should be debarred from giving expert knowledge and advice which he has got as a result of many years' work on the city council.
    As far as the guardians' work is concerned, we can understand the point of view of the Government in saying that a man who is in receipt of relief shall not decide how much relief it is to be when he is simply and solely on guardians' work, but I do think the Minister or the Attorney-General ought to make it clear why these particular words "or a member of his family" are inserted in the Clause if it does not, pre-suppose that a member of a council shall be disqualified as a result of one of the members of his family receiving poor relief.
    Sir R. BANKS: I am in some difficulty as to what this means. I may be displaying ignorance, but it seems quite clear that where a man or a member of his family is receiving medical treatment, that shall not constitute disqualification, but with regard to the first part of the Clause I am bound to say I am in the same difficulty as the last speaker. The Clause says that a person shall be disqualified if he has within the 12 months preceding received poor relief. One would suppose, on the face of this Clause, that it was a purely personal matter, and that

    2745
    it must be the man himself who was receiving relief. The Parliamentary Secretary referred us to Section 42 of the Act, and I am afraid I am still in the dark. I do not know whether, as things are at present, a man is disqualified if a member of his family receives poor relief. [HON. MEMBERS "Yes."] Very well, if that be so, then unless this first part of the Clause alters it, hon. Members are right in suggesting these words mean that a person shall be disqualified if he or a member of his family has within the preceding 12 months received poor relief.
    Sir K. WOOD Sir K. WOOD indicated assent.
    Mr. ATKINSON: The law at present, I think, is that a man is deemed to have received poor relief if either his wife or child under 16 years of age receives it, and under the Section it is quite clear that disqualification ensues if a man or his wife, or any of his children under 16 years of age, receives relief. A perfectly good meaning is given to the words towards the end of the Sub-section:
    "shall not he so disqualified by reason only that lie or a member of his family."
    That means a member of his family whom he is under a duty to maintain—a child under 16 years of age who has received medical or surgical treatment. My view is that it is perfectly clear what this Clause does. The existing law disqualifies a man if his wife or children under 16 receive relief, but the form of the relief here mentioned—medical or surgical treatment—does not have that effect.
    Mr. WOMERSLEY: I agree I am not a lawyer, but I have had some experience of administering Poor Law relief and other forms of local government. The position is quite clear. According to the Act, if a member of a person's family under the age of 16 or his wife receives relief, he is disqualified, but that relief is always given in the way of medical relief, because if it, is necessary for the wife or a child to have relief, the man has to apply for the relief, which is in kind or cash. But when it was a case, under the law as it stands at present, of a man's wife or child being removed to an institution, because medical treatment was needed, then the man was disqualified. Only last week I seconded an Amendment under which I did not agree that that should continue
    2746
    and I asked the Minister carefully to-consider the matter and see if it could not be put right. Here we have got the alteration made quite clear. I submit that to go further than this would be inadvisable, because it is not a question of penalising a man simply because his family are receiving relief, for they would not receive relief except through him.
    Sir H. SLESSER: I have now taken the advantage, that some of my hon. and learned Friends have not had, of reading Section 42 of the Act of 1927, and I am not quite clear in my own mind shat the intention of the Government really is. The meaning of Section 42 is quite clear:
    "All relief given to or on account of a wife shall be considered as given to her husband, and all relief given to or on account of any child under the age of sixteen, not being blind or deaf or dumb, shall be considered as given to the father of the child or to the husband of the mother"
    So it is quite clear under the Poor Law Act, and there is no doubt at all that relief given to a child under 16 is deemed to be relief given to the parent. What I am not quite clear about is how far Clause 9 of this Bill does or does not intend to incorporate the whole operation of Section 42 of the Act of 1927. There is no reference in this Clause to that Section, and it is simply a matter of what the Government's intention is. If they mean to produce the result that a person receives poor relief in this Bill when the relief in fact is given to a child under 16, and that it would be a receiving of poor relief for the purpose of the Act of 1927, then I think this Bill had better say so, and we may express our opinion on the subject. At present the Bill only says that a person shall be disqualified if such a member receives poor relief. I do not know whether or not you are to leave in Section 42. I do not know whether this Clause should be read together with the Act of 1927, but that is a mere matter of drafting. If the Government intend that if the child under 16 actually receives relief it shall be treated as poor relief, it is a simple matter of drafting to say that Section 42 shall apply to Clause 9, but if they do not mean that, I think they ought to say so in terms. I quite agree that it is ambiguous. The real thing which we are

    2747
    discussing is not a legal technicality, but we want to know whether the Government do intend to disqualify a person from sitting on a council because his child under 16 is relieved.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The point of substance has Keen lost sight of in what I hope I may call without offence, a legal wrangle. I do not think there is any ambiguity at all in this matter. The law provides, by Section 42 of the Act of 1927, which is part of the general law, that if relief is given to a child under 16 years of age, it shall be treated as relief given to the father, the principle, of course, being that the father is responsible for maintaining his children up to that age. Then this Clause 9 says that a person shall be disqualified ii he has received poor relief, and if you remember the position of the general law, namely, Section 42 of the Act of 1927, of course that means that he will be disqualified if he has received relief in respect of a child for whose maintenance he was responsible. There is no doubt about that, and the only ambiguity or doubt which has been introduced into hon. Members' minds is by reason of the expression "member of a family" used in the latter part of the Clause. Hon. Members will realise that that is an exempting provision; it says that a person shall not be disqualified because he or a member of his family received medical relief. It is possible that the expression "member of a family is wider than is, strictly speaking, necessary, but in so far as it is wider, it does not do any harm at all; in fact, it rather helps to make it plain in favour of those who are to be relieved. It is really a drafting point, and I hope that what. I
    have said will make it plain that in substance the intentions of the Government are properly expressed in the Clause.
    Mr. E. BROWN: There are a number of Sections in the Act of 1927 which will be repealed, and I find that Section 42 is not among them, so that that appears to answer the question raised by the hon. and learned Member for South East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser).
    Mr. CECIL WILSON: Supposing the case were that of a child who, through an accident, say, became mentally affected and had to be maintained in a Poor Law institution or draw relief from the Poor Law, does it mean that the father would be disqualified from occupying a seat on the council in consequence?
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: That is provided for in the Clause in the words:
    "or been an inmate of an institution for that purpose."
    Mr. LANSBURY: If the children of one of these councillors gets food and medical attention at school, and boots at school, and perhaps later on clothes at school, will that person be disqualified'? Under this Clause he will not be disqualified; he will only be disqualified if the child gets those things under the Poor Law. No such ridiculous hotchpotch was ever brought, before this House.
    Mr. CECIL WILSON: The Clause refers to medical and surgical treatment: I was referring to mental treatment.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 219: Noes, 119.

    Division No. 79.]

    AYES.

    [9.42 p.m.

    Albery. Irving James

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Alton)

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Brass, Captain W.

    Charteris, Brigadier-General S.

    Applin. Colonel R. V. K.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Christie, J. A.

    Apsley, Lord

    Briggs. J. Harold

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Atkinson, C.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Balniel. Lord

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. H. I.

    Cobb. Sir Cyril

    Banks. Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Bennett, A. J

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Berry, Sir George

    Campbell, E. T.

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Bevan, S. J.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Birchall, Ma|or J. Dearman

    Cassels, J. D.

    Couper, J. B.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W, R., Skipton)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Courtauld, Major J S.

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Preston, William

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Ramsden, E.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Remer. J. R.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Ruggles-Brlse, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Rye, F. G.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Jones, Sir G.W.H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Dixey, A. C.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Kindersley, Major Guy M.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Sanders, Sir Robert A,

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Savery, S. S.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Montaith

    Lamb, J. O

    Shaw, Lt.-Col.A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Locker.Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Lougher, Lewis

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Flelden, E. B.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh vere

    Smithers, Waldron

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Spender-Clay. Colonel H.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Forrest, W.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Styles, Captain H. W.

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Ganzonl. Sir John

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Gates, Percy

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Tasker, R. Inlgo.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Golf, Sir Park

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Thomson. F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Grace, John

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Tinne, J, A.

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Murchlson, Sir Kenneth

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Grotrlan, H. Brent

    Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Warner, Brigadier-General W, W.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Wells, S. R.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Oakley, T.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Harland, A.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Williams. Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Winby, Colonel L, P.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Withers, John James

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Perring, Sir William George

    Womersley, W. J.

    Henderson,Capt.R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frame)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Hennessy. Major Sir G. R. J.

    Phillpson, Mabel

    Wright, Brig-General W. D.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Pilcher, G.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Bichard

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Captain Margesson and Captain Wallace.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File. West)

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Day, Harry

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Amnion, Charles George

    Duncan, C.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    John, William (Rhondda. West)

    Baker, Walter

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Barr. J.

    Gardner. J. P.

    Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

    Batty, Joseph

    Glbbins, Joseph

    Kelly, W. T.

    Bellamy, A.

    Gillett, George M.

    Kennedy, T.

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Lansbury, George

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Brlant, Frank

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan}

    Lawson, John James

    Broad. F. A.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Lee, F.

    Bromfield, William

    Grundy. T. W.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Butt)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Lowth, T.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orknty & Shetland)

    Lunn, William

    Cluse, W. S.

    Hardle, George D.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. B. (Aberavon)

    Compton, Joseph

    Harney, E. A,

    Mackinder, W.

    Connolly, M.

    Harris. Percy A.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Cove, W. G.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    March, S.

    2750

    2751

    Maxton, James

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D.(Rhondna)

    Montague, Frederick

    Smillie, Robert

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Morris, R. H

    Smith, Rennle (Penistone)

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Oliver, George Harold

    Stamford, T. W.

    Welsh. J. C.

    Owen, Major G.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Westwood. J.

    Parkinson, John Allan (Wlgan)

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Whiteley, W.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Strauss, E. A.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Potts, John S.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Richardson R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Taylor, R. A.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Riley, Ben

    Thorne, W. (West Ham Plalstow)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Ritson, J.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Scurr, John

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Wright, W.

    Sexton, James

    Townend, A. E.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Vlant, S. P.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Mr. Barnes and Mr. Paling.

    Shinwell, E.

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Mr. WEBB: I beg to move, in page 8, line 40, at the end, to insert the words:
    "or of any institution provided by virtue of the Lunacy or Mental Deficiency Acts."
    We have placed this Amendment on the Paper in order to inquire what is meant by the Government in drafting this Clause. Under this Clause a person is not disqualified
    "by reason only that he or a member of his family has received medical or surgical treatment, or been an inmate of an institution for that purpose."
    The last Amendment concerned a hypothetical dozen or two dozen people who might he disqualified by receiving Poor Law relief, but this Amendment concerns 120,000 people a vast number of whom are dependants of members. If they receive relief in asylums, it is entered in the case books as poor relief, and it is in fact poor relief and the husband of a wife in that position, or the father of a child in that position, is, it seems to me, in receipt of poor relief. As a matter of fact, he is a pauper, even if the wife or child had been compulsorily carried off to an asylum. Moreover, he remains a pauper even if, as is the custom, the board of guardians charges him with the cost of the maintenance of the person in the asylum. Even if he pays the full amount, he is still a pauper. There are a large number out of the 120,000 cases in which the full cost charged by the guardians is paid by the relatives; nevertheless, it remains poor relief. That I believe to be the law.
    The Bill as it stands proposes to remove the disqualification for this purpose if
    "he or a member of his family has received medical or surgical treatment."
    Is the fact that a person is treated as a
    2752
    certified lunatic or a mentally deficient person the same as receiving surgical treatment? One would think that it was. I should be quite content if we can be told that residence in an asylum as a certified lunatic or in a mental deficiency home run by a Poor Law Authority as a certified mentally deficient is equivalent to receiving medical or surgical treatment. It must be remembered that not all these 120,000 are in receipt of medical or surgical treatment. There are places given up to creatures who are so incapable that they have to be turned over and fed, and who are unable to see, speak or hear or do anything until somebody turns them over to feed them. They are included in the 120,000, and can they be said to be receiving medical or surgical treatment? If the Government mean that these words do apply to this treatment, my Amendment is unnecessary, but I suggest that, in view of the grave doubt that there would be on the subject, it ought to be adopted. The disqualification is being removed in the case of a sick person but this is a much less guilty case, as it were, of a person compulsorily removed to an asylum and whose relative pays the full charge made by the board of guardians, yet the person concerned is to be disqualified. That is rather serious. I do not think it can be intended, and if it is not intended I humbly suggest that it may be made clear.
    Mr. E. BROWN: The point put by the right hon. Gentleman seems to be precisely the same as that raised in an Amendment earlier on the Paper which was not called. I understand there is some doubt as to whether relief given under a maternity and child welfare

    2753
    scheme in a maternity home really constitutes medical relief within the terms of the Bill.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Can the hon. Member inform me whether it is intended to move the next Amendment? If it is intended to move it, he cannot raise upon this Amendment the point he is now putting.
    Mr. BROWN: I only wished to save time. If I can get an answer to my question I do not wish to press the subject.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I also have a case to submit on the lines put forward by the right hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb). I have a case in mind of a person who suffered acutely from a carbuncle on the neck, and who was temporarily incarcerated in a mental institution. It was only a matter of a few days; he had lost his mental balance. However, it took about three weeks before the man could be rescued, as it were, from that environment, though he was perfectly sound and perfectly sane. Is it suggested that a case of that description comes within the words which are already in this Clause, or would it be regarded as a case where poor relief had been received, which was not in the nature of medical or surgical treatment? There may be dozens of other cases in the country where there has been no prolonged stay in an asylum, but where disqualification may follow unless we have a clear interpretation of the words.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As a preliminary, may I inform the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. Brown) that a maternity home or similar institution is covered by the words in the Clause. The point raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) is one of some doubt and perplexity perhaps and therefore I make no complaint that he has raised it, as it gives me an opportunity of telling the Committee what I think is the position. I must distinguish between the two Acts, or sets of Acts, which are mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, namely, the Mental Deficiency Acts and the Lunacy Acts. Under the Mental Deficiency Act, 1913, the authorities are entitled to recover a sum towards the expenses of the maintenance of an individual, but they have no power to recover from the guardians,
    2754
    and therefore treatment in a mental deficiency institution is not poor relief. Section 37 subsection (2) of that Act states definitely that a person in a certified mental deficiency institution is not to be deemed to be in receipt of poor relief. When we come to the question of persons treated under the Lunacy Acts, I would point out that the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment speaks of institutions provided by virtue of the Lunacy Acts. A person is not disqualified by reason of being in an institution provided by virtue of the Lunacy Acts, but it is a fact that a pauper lunatic who is confined in an asylum and is chargeable to the guardians in his place of settlement is disqualified in certain circumstances. But there, again, comes in a question which was raised by the right hon. Gentleman, that is to say, whether he is receiving medical or surgical relief.
    In the case mentioned by the hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), where a man was suffering from a carbuncle on the neck, I imagine that he would be receiving medical or surgical relief, and therefore he would come under the terms of this Clause. But there are lunatics who, I think, could hardly he said, except by rather stretching the words, to be in receipt of medical or surgical relief. We have made no particular mention of those cases because the Lunacy Acts were not included amongst the appropriate Acts in Clause 4, for the reasons I gave, namely, that a Royal Commission has reported on the subject of the Lunacy Acts and that legislation no doubt will follow very shortly, and as the Lunacy Acts were not included in the list of appropriate Acts in Clause 4 it would be better to leave the matter where it stands for the present. When legislation is introduced to deal with the recommendations of the Royal Commission the Lunacy Acts will, no doubt, he added to the list of Acts in Clause 4, and then provision will be made for those eases under the terms of this Clause.
    Mr. WEBB: It may be some years before that legislation is undertaken—it is some years since the Commission reported —and in the meantime there are 120,000 persons—
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Those are the mentally deficient.
    10.0 p.m.
    Mr. WEBB: Unfortunately, there are only about 5,000 mentally deficient; perhaps there ought to be a great many more, but I put it at 5,000. That leaves 115,000 people who have all got someone belonging to them and who will be disqualified. You do not intend that they should be disqualified but yet you suggest that they should wait for the introduction of new legislation. I submit that it is not fair to subject these people to this disqualification. This is a very real grievance. I know members of councils who have had their wives put away, and it is not fair to subject them to this disqualification when it could be so easily put right by including some such words as I have suggested.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am not sure that it would be so easily put right, but I am ready to give some further consideration to this matter between now and the Report stage.
    Dr. VERNON DAVIES: Is it not the fact that all the persons detained in asylums are under the direct control and supervision of the medical superintendent? In that case you could argue that they are receiving a certain amount of medical benefit and would come under this Clause. The medical superintendent is in control of all persons in an asylum.
    Sir JOSEPH NALL: It would appear from the arguments of hon. Members opposite that there is a real point in the case as it relates to those with relatives in an asylum, but is it really argued that a man or woman who has been detained as a lunatic or a mentally deficient person should be eligible to be a member of a local authority? That is what this Clause deals with—the question of disqualification for membership or a local authority; and I should have thought that not even the Labour party wanted to elect those who are mentally deficient.
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: The hon. Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall) really misunderstands the position. According to the Clause as it stands, a man whose wife was a pauper lunatic would be disqualified from sitting on any one of these county authorities. That is the position which the Minister has promised to look
    2756
    into, and if he considers it with the intention of seeing whether it can be altered I think that meets the case. But unless that case is met there will be a very serious position until such time as the lunacy laws be amended.
    Mr. WEBB: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 8, line 40, at the end, to insert the words:
    "or received relief which could have been granted under the Blind Persons Act, 1920."
    I move this Amendment in fulfilment of a pledge which I gave during the discussion of an earlier Clause.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 9, line 10, at the end, to insert the words:
    (3) Notwithstanding, anything in Section forty-six of the Local Government Act, 1894. a person shall not, on or after the appointed day, be disqualified for becoming or being a member of any local authority to which that Section applies by reason that he or any member of his family has received poor relief if by virtue of the provisions of this Section the receipt of that relief would not disqualify him for becoming or being a member of a county or county borough council.
    I have moved this Amendment in a slightly altered form. The alteration is in the third line in the Amendment as it stands on the Paper. I have left out the words "a district or parish council," and substituted the words "any local authority to which that Section applies." The object of the Amendment is simply to cover the metropolitan borough councils, which are constituted by Provisional Order. This is the fulfilment of a pledge which I gave in the discussion on Clause 4.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 129.

    Division No. 80.]

    AYES.

    [10.9 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Albery, Irving James

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Ganzonl, sir John

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Gates, Percy

    Oakley, T.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Apsley, Lord

    Gllmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Goff, Sir Park

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Atkinson, C.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Grace, John

    Perring. Sir William George

    Balniel, Lord

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Phillpson, Mabel

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Pilcher, G.

    Bennett, A. J.

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Berry, Sir George

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Preston, William

    Bevan, S. J.

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Ramsden, E.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks. W. R., Skipton)

    Hanbury, C.

    Remer, J. R.

    Bowater, Colonel Sir T. Vansittart

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Harland, A.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Richardson, Sir P. w. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Rye, F. G.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Henderson, Capt. R.R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Savery, S. S.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Holt, Capt. H. P.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Fortar)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Charterls, Brigadier-General J.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)

    Christie, J. A.

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G.F.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Streatfelld, Captain S. R.

    Colman. N. C. D.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nalr)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Con'l)

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Couper, J. B.

    Kindersley, Major Guy M.

    Taster, R. Inlgo.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Locker-Lampson. Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Davles, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Lougher, Lewis

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Dawson. Sir Philip

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Dixey, A. C.

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Wells, S. R.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Mac Robert, Alexander M.

    Wilton, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    falrfax, Captain J. G.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Winby, Colonel L P.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Withers, John James

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Fielden, E. B.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Womersley, W. J.

    ford, Sir P. J.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Forrest, W.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Murchlson, Sir Kenneth

    Captain Margesson and Mr. Penny.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Franels E.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    2758

    2759

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Harney, E. A.

    Scurr, John

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Harris, Percy A.

    Sexton, James

    Amman, Charles George

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Baker, Walter

    Hirst, G. H.

    Shinwell, E.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddenfield).

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Barnes, A.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Sltch, Charles H.

    Barr, J.

    John. William (Rhondda, West)

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Batey, Joseph

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Smillie, Robert

    Bellamy, A.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Smith, Rennle (Penlstone)

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Briant, Frank

    Kennedy, T.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Broad, F. A.

    Lansbury, George

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Bromfield, William

    Lawrence, Susan

    Strauss. E. A.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Lawson, John James

    Sullivan, J.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Lee, F.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Buchanan, G.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Taylor. R. A.

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lowth, T.

    Thurtie, Ernest

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lunn, William

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Compton, Joseph

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Connolly, M.

    Mackinder. W.

    Townend, A. E.

    Cove, W. G.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Vlant, S. P.

    Davles, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Malone. C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Wellhead, Richard C.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhougnton)

    March, S.

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Day, Harry

    Maxton, James

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D.(Rhondde)

    Dennlson, R.

    Montague, Frederick

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Duncan, C.

    Morris, R. H.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Dunnlco, H

    Naylor. T. E.

    Wellock. Wilfred

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Westwood, J.

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Owen, Major G.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Gardner, J. P.

    Palm, John Henry

    Williams, C. p. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Gillett, George M.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F, W.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and colne)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Potts, John S.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Rlley, Ben

    Windsor, Walter

    Hall, F. (York. W.R., Normanton)

    Ritson, J.

    Wright, W.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich)

    Hamilton. Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

    Hardle, George D.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Paling.

    CLAUSE 10.—(Repeal of 5 Edw. 7. c. 18.)
    The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN: The Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb)—in page 9, to leave jut from the word "day," in line 12, to the end of the Clause, and to insert instead thereof the words:
    "have effect as if in the Act the London County Council were substituted for the London Unemployed Body as the authority under the Act for the County of London, and as if the council of a county or county borough had been made the authority under the Act for a county or county borough respectively—"
    appears to me to be a repetition of an Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman moved to Clause 1. Before I give a Ruling upon it, I should like to hear the observations of the right hon. Gentleman on the question of Order.
    Mr. WEBB: The point of the Amendment which I moved on Clause 1 was merely that there should be the option of proceeding under the Unemployed Work-
    2760
    men Act, and when I moved that Amendment on Clause 1 it was not objected to. Clause 10 proposes to repeal the Unemployed Workmen Act, and the effect of my present Amendment would merely be that that Act would remain in force, but would be administered by different authorities.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Gentleman's Amendment is, in point of fact, a direct negative of the Clause, and, therefore, I must rule it out of Order. The point can be raised on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. WEBB: I submit, Captain Bourne, that. this is a proposal to amend the Clause. A direct negative would lay down that the Act should not be repealed, but this is not that at all; it is simply a proposal that the Act should be amended in a particular manner.
    The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN: The Clause as it stands would totally repeat

    2761
    the Unemployed Workmen Act, and the effect of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment would be to substitute some other provision. It is a well-known rule of procedure in the House that an Amendment which proposes a direct negative is not in order. If the point be raised on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," it will be in order, but not as an Amendment to the Clause.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. WEBB: As you definitely rule that my Amendment is of the nature of a direct negative, I accept that ruling. I take it that I am now in order in dealing with the matter on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Yes.
    Mr. WEBB: Then I shall venture to take advantage of your suggestion, and shall not address myself to the Question whether the Clause stand part, but to the making of the point which I should have made if I had been able to move my Amendment. The Unemployed Workmen Act, which this Clause proposes to repeal, does not relate to the London County Council at all. In London the power was given to the Central Unemployed Body. My Amendment would have given the authority under that Act to the London County Council and not the Central Unemployed Body, and would have made the authority in other counties and county boroughs the council of the county or county borough itself.
    I am now asking the Committee to negative the proposal that the Clause should stand part. I will not repeat the arguments I used on a former occasion. I am going to ask the Committee to consider a brand new argument, that is, that the Minister of Health has put down an Amendment to Clause 15 in which he proposes to give to the London County Council, and to the London County Council only, power to delegate any of the powers transferred by this Act to any committee which they think appropriate. That is to say, the London County Council, if the Amendment is carried, will be able to transfer any of the powers, including the Poor Law powers, to any
    2762
    of its committees at its choice. It will not be bound to transfer to the public assistance committee any powers at all. If it chooses, it can distribute them over its other committees. I am very much in favour of that Amendment, and I hope it will be extended to other county boroughs. The right hon. Gentleman will perhaps notice that the London County Council has not any appropriate committee at present for dealing with the able-bodied unemployed, because it is the central unemployed body, under this Act, which is that committee. My Amendment would have been to enable the London County Council to exercise itself, through its appropriate committees, the powers of the Unemployed Workmen Act. Unfortunately this Clause, if I am not successful in inducing the Committee to refuse to let it stand part, will repeal the Unemployed Workmen Act and will deprive the London County Council of any power to deal with the able-bodied unemployed at all otherwise than as paupers. The right hon. Gentleman's Amendment to delegate all or any of the powers under this Bill to any Committee that the London County Council chooses will be operative as regards the able-bodied unemployed, but if the Unemployed Workmen Act is repealed they will not be able to have a committee dealing with the unemployed at all. I do not think that can be intended.
    The right hon. Gentleman, on a former occasion, said his Department did not think the Unemployed Workmen Act was of any use. It happens that to-day, quite by accident, I was looking at some recent Annual Reports of the right hon. Gentleman's Department only two or three years ago. One of them reported in very glowing terms as to the utility of Hollesley Bay and said that a number of men had found situations after the training there. That comes to an end if I am not successful in getting the Committee to refuse to let the Clause stand part. We understand that the right hon. Gentleman has consented to allow his colleague the Minister of Labour to take it over for the express purpose of training men who are unemployed. I rather object to this institution being taken over from the County of London by the national Government. I should have wished for it to have been run by those who provided and paid for it.

    2763
    For all these reasons, it seems to me that the Committee ought not to allow this Clause to stand part of the Bill. It does actually repeal the Unemployed Workmen Act, and by repealing that Act it prevents any county council or county borough from having any committee to deal with the unemployed or the poor except the public assistance committee, and the public assistance committee is of all committees unqualified for dealing with the unemployed. Nothing can be worse than mixing up people broken down by destitution with the question of the treatment of the unemployed and able-bodied. They ought to be separate. The question of the unemployed ought not to be dealt with by any local body except under the Unemployed Workmen Act, and that Act applies to all counties and county boroughs. I honour the majority of the London County Council for asking that
    the administration of all the new powers should be distributed among the appropriate committees of the London County Council. It is what some of us have been pleading for during 19 years. The right hon. Gentleman has allowed the London County Council to do that, and I only say that to make his concession complete he ought not to deprive them of the Unemployed Workmen Act, which by allowing his Clause to stand, he would be enabled to do.
    It being half-past Ten of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 12 th December, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
    Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 254; Noes, 136.

    Division No. 81.]

    AYES.

    [10.30 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Albery, Irving James

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Greens, W. P. Crawford

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

    Cooper, A. Dull

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Cope, Major Sir William

    Grotrlan, H. Brent

    Applln, Colonel R. V. K.

    Couper, J. B.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Apslty, Lord

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Hall. Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Hamilton, Sir George

    Atkinson, C.

    Crookshank,Cpt.H,(Lindsey,Galnsbro)

    Hanbury, C.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Balniel, Lord

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Harland, A.

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset,Yeovil)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Bennett, A. J.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Berry, Sir George

    Dawson. Sir Philip

    Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd,Henley)

    Bevan, S. J.

    Dixey, A. C.

    Heneage, Lieut. Colonel Arthur P.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R.. Sklpton)

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Holbrook. Sir Arthur Richard

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Holt, Capt. H. P.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Erskine. James Malcolm Montelth

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Fairfax. Captain J. G.

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Broun-Llndsay, Major H.

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Hudson, R. s. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd, Hexham)

    Fielden. E. B.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Forrest, W.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Carver. Major W. H.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Cassels, J. D.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth. Cen'l)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    traser, Captain Ian

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Fremantle. Lieut-Colonel Francis E

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Galbralth, J. F. W.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Kinloch-Cooke. Sir Clement

    Charterls, Brigadier-General J.

    Gates, Percy

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Christie, J. A.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Goff, Sir Park

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. O.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Grace, John

    Loder. J. de V.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Lougher, Lewis

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Philipson, Mabel

    Styles, Captain H. W.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Pilcher, G.

    Sueter, Rear.Admiral Murray Frasir

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Sugden, sir Wilfrid

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Tasker, R. Inlgo

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Preston, William

    Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Tinne, J. A.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Ramsden, E.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Remer, J. R.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Huill

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Ruggles-Brlse, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt, Hon. B. M.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Rye, F. G.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Wells, S. R.

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    White, Licut.-Col. Sir G. Datrymple

    Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dswortti, Putney)

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Murchlson, Sir Kenneth

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Savery, S. S.

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew. W)

    Withers, John James

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Wolraer, Viscount

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Womersiey, W. J.

    Oakley, T.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Wood, R. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne.C.)

    Wood, E.(Chest'r.Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Perring, Sir William George

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Mr. F. C. Thomson and Mr. Penny.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hardie, George D.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. 0. (W.Bromwich)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Harney, E. A.

    Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Amnion, Charles George

    Harris, Percy A.

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Baker, Walter

    Hirst, G. H

    Scurr, John

    Barker, G (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Sexton, James

    Barnes, A.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Barr, J.

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Shinwell, E.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Bellamy. A.

    Jenkins. W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Bondfield, Margaret

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Siesser, Sir Henry H.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dunda)

    Smillie, Robert

    Briant, Frank

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)

    Broad. F. A.

    Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bromfield, William

    Kelly, W. T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Kennedy, T.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Kenworthy, Lt-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Buchanan, G.

    Lansbury, George

    Strauss, E. A.

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sullivan, J.

    Charleton, H. C,

    Lawson, John James

    Sutton, J. E.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lee. F.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lindley, F. W.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Connolly, M.

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Cove, W. G.

    Lowth, T.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Lunn, William

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Townend, A. E.

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Mackindor, W.

    Vlant, S. P.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Day, Harry

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Waish. Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Dennlson, R.

    March, S.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Duncan, C.

    Maxton, James

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Dunnico, H.

    Montague, Frederick

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Morris, R. H.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Unlver.)

    Murnin, H.

    Weish, J. C.

    Fenby, T. D.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Westwood. J.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Glbbins, Joseph

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Glliett, George M.

    Palin, John Henry

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.)

    Paling, W.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colnel

    Parkinson, Jonn Allen (Wigan)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Grenfell. D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attcrcllffe)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Wilson, R. J. (J arrow)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Potts, John S.

    Windsor, Walter

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Wright, W.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Riley, Ben

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Rltson, J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOESߞ

    Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Whiteley.

    The Chairman then proceeded, successively, to put forthwith the Question on an Amendment moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at half-past Ten of the Clock at this day's Sitting.

    CLAUSE 10.—(Repeal of 5 Edw. 7. c. 18.)

      CLAUSE 11.—(Consequential Amendments of certain Acts.)
      Amendment made:
      In page 9, line 38, after the word "health," insert the words:
      "the committee appointed by the London County Council for similar purposes."—(Mr. Chamberlain.)
      Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 253; Noes, 132.

      Division No. 82.]

      AYES.

      [10.41 p.m.

      Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Albery, Irving James

      Dixey, A. C.

      Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

      Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

      Iveagh, Countess of

      Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

      Eden, Captain Anthony

      Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

      Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

      Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

      Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

      Apsley, Lord

      Elliot, Major Walter E.

      Kindersley, Major G. M.

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth

      King, Commodore Henry Douglas

      Astor, viscountess

      Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Atholi, Duchess of

      Everard, W. Lindsay

      Knox, Sir Alfred

      Atkinson, C.

      Fairfax, Captain J. 6.

      Lamb, J. O.

      Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

      Falle, Sir Bertram G.

      Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Balnlel, Lord

      Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

      Little, Dr. E. Graham

      Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

      Flelden, E. B.

      Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

      Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

      Ford, Sir P. J.

      Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

      Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

      Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

      Loder, J. de V.

      Bennett, A. J.

      Forrest, W.

      Lougher, Lewis

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

      Foster, Sir Harry S.

      Lucas-Tooth. Sir Hugh Vere

      Berry, Sir George

      Foxcrott, Captain C. T.

      Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

      Bevan, S. J.

      Fraser, Captain Ian

      MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., skipton)

      Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

      Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (1. of W.)

      Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

      Bowyer, Captain G. E. W

      Ganzonl, Sir John

      MacRobert, Alexander M.

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Gates, Percy

      Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

      Briggs, J. Harold

      Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

      Margesson, Captain D.

      Briscoe, Richard George

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Glyn, Major R. G. C.

      Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

      Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

      Goff, Sir Park

      Meyer, Sir Frank

      Brcup-Lindsay, Major H.

      Gower, Sir Robert

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

      Brown. Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

      Grace, John

      Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Grant, Sir J. A.

      Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

      Burton, Colonel H. W.

      Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

      Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

      Campbell, E. T.

      Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

      Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

      Carver, Major W. H.

      Greene. W. P. Crawford

      Moore, Sir Newton J.

      Caseels. J. D.

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Moreing, Captain A. H.

      Cautley, Sir Henry S.

      Grotrian, H. Brent

      Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

      Murchison, Sir Kenneth

      Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

      Gunston, Captain D. W.

      Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Hacking, Douglas H.

      Nelson, Sir Frank

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Neville, Sir Reginald J.

      Charterls, Brigadier-General J.

      Hamilton, Sir George

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Christie, J. A.

      Hanbury, C.

      Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

      Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Nuttall, Ellis

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Harland, A.

      Oakley, T.

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Hartington, Marquess of

      O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

      Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

      Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

      Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

      Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

      Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

      Pennefather Sir John

      Cohen, Major J. Brunei

      Haslam, Henry C.

      Percy, Lord' Eustace (Hastings)

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Colman, N. C. D.

      Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

      Perring, Sir William George

      Conway, Sir W. Martin

      Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

      Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

      Cooper, A. Duff

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Peto, G. (Somerset Frome)

      Cope, Major Sir William

      Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

      Philipson, Mabel

      Couper, J. B.

      Hills, Major John Waller

      Pilcher, G.

      Courtauld, Major J. S.

      Hilton, Cecil

      Pilditch, Sir Philip

      Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

      Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

      Pownall, Sir Assheton

      Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

      Holt, Captain H. P.

      Preston, William

      Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

      Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

      Price, Major C. W. M.

      Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

      Hopkins, J. W. W.

      Raine, Sir Walter

      Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Ramsden, E.

      Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

      Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

      Remer, J. R.

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

      Rentoul, G. S.

      Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

      Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

      Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

      Davies, Dr. Vernon

      Hume, Sir G. H.

      Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

      Ropner, Major L.

      Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F

      Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

      Ruggles-Brlse, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

      Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

      Wayland, Sir William A.

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

      Wells, S. R.

      Rye, F. G.

      Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

      White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple.

      Salmon, Major I.

      Styles, Captain H. W.

      Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

      Samuel, Samuel (W'dtworth, Putney)

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

      Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

      Sandeman, N. Stewart

      Tasker, R. Inlgo.

      Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

      Sanders, Sir Robert A.

      Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

      Winby, Colonel L. P.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Withers, John James

      Savery, S. S.

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen South)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew. W)

      Tinne, J. A.

      Womersley, W. J.

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

      Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

      Sheppenon, E. W.

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

      Skelton, A. N.

      Turton, Sir Edmund Ruseborough

      Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

      Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)

      Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Smith, Carington, Neville W.

      Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

      Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

      Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

      Warrender, Sir Victor

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

      Mr. Penny and Captain Wallace.

      NOES.

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

      Runclman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Saklatvala, Shapurjl

      Ammon, Charles George

      Hirst, G. H.

      Salter, Dr. Alfred

      Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

      Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

      Scurr, John

      Baker, Walter

      Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

      Sexton, James

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Hudson, J. H. (Huddertfield)

      Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

      Barnes, A.

      Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

      Shinwell, E.

      Barr, J.

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

      Batey, Joseph

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Bellamy, A.

      Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

      Slesser, Sir Henry H.

      Bondfield, Margaret

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

      Smillie, Robert

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

      Smith, Rennle (Penistone)

      Briant, Frank

      Kelly, W. T.

      Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

      Broad, F. A.

      Kennedy, T.

      Stamford, T. W.

      Bromfield, William

      Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

      Stephen, Campbell

      Brown, Ernest (Leith)

      Lansbury, George

      Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Lawrence, Susan

      Strauss, E. A.

      Buchanan, G.

      Lawson, John James

      Sullivan, Joseph

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

      Lee, F.

      Sutton, J. E.

      Charleton, H. C.

      Lindley, F. W.

      Taylor, R. A.

      Cluse, W. S.

      Longbottom, A. W.

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Compton, Joseph

      Lowth, T.

      Thurtle, Ernest

      Connolly, M.

      Lunn, William

      Tinker, John Joseph

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

      Tomlinson, R. P.

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Mackinder, W.

      Townend, A. E.

      Day, Harry

      Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

      Viant, S. P.

      Dennison, R.

      Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

      Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

      Duncan, C.

      March, S.

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. O. (Rhondda)

      Dunnlco, H.

      Maxton, James

      Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

      Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

      Montague, Frederick

      Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

      Fenby, T. D.

      Morris, R. H.

      Wellock, Wilfred

      Gardner, J. P.

      Murnin, H.

      Welsh, J. C.

      Gibbins, Joseph

      Naylor, T. E.

      Westwood, J.

      Gillett, George M.

      Oliver, George Harold

      Wiggins, William Martin

      Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.)

      Owen, Major G.

      Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

      Greenwood. A (Nelson and Colne)

      Palln, John Henry

      Williams, David (Swansea. E.)

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Piling, W.

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Griffith, F. Kingeley

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Grundy, T. W.

      Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercilffe)

      Hall, F. (York. W. B., Normanton)

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Potts, John S.

      Windsor, Walter

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney ft Shetland)

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Wright, W.

      Hardle, George D

      Riley, Ben

      Harney, E. A.

      Ritson, J.

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

      Harris, Percy A.

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

      Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Whiteley.

      CLAUSE 12.—(Consequential alteration of constitution of assessment committees.)
      Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 256; Noes, 134.

      Division No. 83.]

      AYES.

      [10.50 p.m.

      Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold, C. M. S.

      Astor, Viscountess

      Albery, Irving James

      Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

      Atholl, Duchess of

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

      Apsley, Lord

      Atkinson, C.

      Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

      Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

      Balniel, Lord

      Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

      Neville, Sir Reginald J.

      Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

      Glyn, Major R. G. C.

      Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

      Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

      Goff, Sir Park

      Nuttall, Ellis

      Bennett, A. J.

      Gower, Sir Robert

      Oakley, T.

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish.

      Grace, John

      O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

      Berry, Sir George

      Grant, Sir J. A.

      Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

      Bevan, S. J

      Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

      Pennefather, Sir John

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

      Greene, W. P. Crawford

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Boothby, R. J. G.

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Perring, Sir William George

      Bowater, Colonel Sir T. Vanslttart

      Grotrian, H. Brent

      Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

      Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

      Briggs, J. Harold

      Gunston, Captain D. W.

      Philipson, Mabel

      Briscoe, Richard George

      Hacking, Douglas H

      Pilcher, G.

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Pilditch, Sir Philip

      Brocklebank, C. E. R.

      Hamilton, Sir George

      Pownall, Sir Assheton

      Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

      Hanbury, C.

      Preston, William

      Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Price, Major C. W. M.

      Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

      Harland, A.

      Raine, Sir Walter

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Hartington, Marquess of

      Ramsden, E.

      Burton, Colonel H. W.

      Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

      Remer, J. R.

      Campbell, E. T.

      Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

      Rentoul, G. S.

      Carver, Major W. H.

      Haslam, Henry C.

      Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

      Cassels, J. O.

      Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

      Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

      Cautley, Sir Henry S.

      Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

      Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

      Ropner, Major L.

      Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Hills, Major John Walter

      Rye, F. G.

      Charterls, Brigadier-General J.

      Hilton, Cecil

      Salmon, Major I.

      Christie, J. A.

      Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

      Holt, Capt. H. P.

      Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

      Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

      Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

      Sandeman, N. Stewart

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Hopkins, J. W. W.

      Sanders, Sir Robert A.

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

      Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

      Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

      Savery, S. S.

      Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

      Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Cohen, Major J. Brunei

      Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Hume, Sir G. H.

      Skelton, A. N.

      Colman, N. C. D.

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

      Conway, Sir W. Martin

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Smith-Carington, Neville W.

      Cooper, A. Duff

      Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Cope, Major Sir William

      Iveagh, Countess of

      Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

      Couper, J. B.

      Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

      Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

      Courtauld, Major J. S.

      Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

      Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

      Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

      Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

      Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

      Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

      Kindersley, Major Guy M.

      Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

      Croakshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

      King, Commodore Henry Douglas

      Styles, Captain H. Walter

      Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Sueter, Hear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

      Knox, Sir Alfred

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

      Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

      Lamb, J. Q.

      Tasker, R. Inlgo.

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

      Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

      Little. Dr. E. Graham

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

      Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      Davies, Dr. Vernon

      Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

      Tinne, J. A.

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Loder, J. de V.

      Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Lougher, Lewis

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Dixey, A. C.

      Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

      Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

      Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

      Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

      Wallace, Captain D. E.

      Eden, Captain Anthony

      MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

      Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

      Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

      Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (1. of W.)

      Warrender, Sir Victor

      Elliot, Major Walter E.

      McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

      Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

      Erskine, James Malcolm Montelt

      Macmillan, Captain H.

      Wayland, Sir William A.

      Evans. Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

      MacRobert, Alexander M

      Wells, S. R.

      Everard, W. Lindsay

      Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

      White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

      Fairfax. Captain J. G.

      Margesson, Captain D.

      Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

      Falle, Sir Bertram G.

      Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

      Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

      Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

      Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

      Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

      Flelden, E. B.

      Meyer, Sir Frank.

      Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

      Ford, Sir P. J.

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw.

      Winby, Colonel L. P.

      Forestler-Walkcr, Sir L.

      Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

      Withers, John James

      Forrest, W.

      Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Foster, Sir Harry S.

      Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

      Womersley, W. J.

      Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

      Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

      Wood, B. C (Somerset, Bridgwater)

      Fraser, Captain Ian

      Moore, Sir Newton J.

      Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      Moreing, Captain A. H.

      Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

      Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

      Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Murchison, Sir Kenneth

      Wright, Brig.-General W. D.

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

      Gates, Percy

      Nelson, Sir Frank

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

      Captain Bowyer and Mr. Penny.

      2772

      2773

      NOES.

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

      Harris, Percy A.

      Salter, Dr. Alfred

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

      Scurr, John

      Amnion, Charles George

      Hirst, G. H.

      Sexton, James

      Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

      Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

      Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

      Baker, Walter

      Hore-Belisha, Leslie

      Shinwell, E.

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

      Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

      Barnes, A.

      Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montross)

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Barr, J.

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Slesser, Sir Henry H.

      Batey, Joseph

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Smillie, Robert

      Bellamy, A.

      Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

      Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

      Bondfield, Margaret

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)

      Stamford, T. W.

      Briant, Frank

      Kelly, W. T.

      Stephen, Campbell

      Broad, F. A.

      Kennedy, T.

      Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

      Bromfield, William

      Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

      Strauss, E. A.

      Brown, Ernest (Leith)

      Lansbury, George

      Sullivan. J

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Lawrence, Susan

      Sutton, J. E.

      Buchanan, G.

      Lawson, John James

      Taylor, R. A.

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

      Lee, F.

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Charleton, H. C.

      Lindley, F. W.

      Thurtle, Ernest

      Cluse, W. S.

      Longbottom, A. W.

      Tinker, John Joseph

      Compton, Joseph

      Lowth, T.

      Tomlinson, R. P.

      Connolly, M.

      Lunn, William

      Townend, A. E.

      Crawfurd, H. E.

      MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

      Viant, S. P.

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Mackinder, W.

      Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Day, Harry

      Malone, C. L'Estrange (W'thampton)

      Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

      Dennison, R.

      March, S.

      Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

      Duncan, C.

      Maxton, James

      Wellock, Wilfred

      Dunnlco, H.

      Montague, Frederick

      Welsh, J. C.

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Morris, R. H.

      Westwood, J.

      Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

      Murnin, H.

      Fenby, T. D.

      Naylor, T. E.

      Whiteley, W.

      Gardner, J. P.

      Oliver, George Harold

      Wiggins, William Martin

      Gibbins, Joseph

      Owen, Major G.

      Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

      Gillett, George M.

      Palln, John Henry

      Williams, David (Swansea, East)

      Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

      Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Griffith, F. Kingsley

      Potts, John S.

      Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

      Grundy, T. W.

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Windsor, Walter

      Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

      Riley, Ben

      Wright, W.

      Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

      Ritson, J.

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Roberts. Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

      Hardle, George D.

      Runclman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Paling.

      Harney, E. A.

      Saklatvula, Shapurji

      Question put, and agreed to.

      CLAUSE 13.—(Recovery of expenses.)
      Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]
      Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  APPELLATE JURISDICTION BILL.
  Read the Third time, and passed.

  OVERSEAS TRADE BILL.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Mr. SPEAKER: What day?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Commander Eyres Monsell): Thursday.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask why the Third Reading of this Bill is being postponed?
  Mr. SPEAKER: Does the hon. and gallant Member rise to a point of Order?
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I do not know whether it is a point of Order, but I want to point out that, when business was announced, we were told that this Order would be taken after eleven o'clock to-night, and I am asking why the Government are now postponing it.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The Government apparently have thought better of it.
  Third Reading deferred until Thursday.

  SUPPLY.
  REPORT [13TH DECEMBER].
  Resolution reported:

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1928.

    CLASS VI.
    "That a sum, not exceeding £20,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the

    2775
    Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the payment of grants in respect of local rates on certain Private Mineral Railways."

  HAIRDRESSERS' AND BARBERS' SHOPS (SUNDAY CLOSING) BILL.
  Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I now take this opportunity of asking the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury why we were called hero to pass the Third Reading of the Superannuation (Diplomatic Service) Bill, and the Third Reading of the Overseas Trade Bill as announced by the Prime Minister? The Eleven o'clock Rule was suspended, and the House put to the trouble of a Division, and then the business has been postponed until Thursday. As one who always wishes to facilitate Government business, I was quite pre-
  2776
  pared to discuss the matter very briefly, and I would no doubt have been satisfied by the Minister in charge, and the Government would have got their Third Reading. Now it is postponed until Thursday, when everybody will be wishing to get away for the holiday, and when the time will be mortgaged for private Members' rights on the Adjournment. I think a word of explanation is called for.
  Commander EYRES-MONSELL: This is a new complaint. In a long experience of the House of Commons I have never heard the Opposition make this complaint before. I welcome it, especially from the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and I hope I shall hear it again. The reason we have not taken this business is rather a complicted one. This Bill and the Overseas Trade Bill are certified Money Bills under the Parliament Act. A Clause in the Parliament Act states that a Bill sent from the Commons to another place must be returned to the House of Commons within a month. As we are going away on a holiday, that will be impossible. The Government, therefore, are going to postpone the Third Reading of that Bill and the Third Reading of the Overseas Trade Bill until we return.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am much obliged for that information.
  Adjourned accordingly at Five Minutes after Eleven o'clock.