§ Mr. DIXEYI beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the recognition and legalisation of betting.I have previously introduced a Bill on similar lines to this, and I moved it then on the same grounds on which I am moving it to-day. In the first place, I think the people would like to see some clarification of the law of betting. At the present time the people of this country, and the Government, are animated by false standards of morals with regard to this question. If betting is bad for the morals of the people, if it is what we are told it is, a cancer in the life of the nation, there is only one proper and logical way of tackling it, and that is by making it illegal altogether. I can quite understand the point of view of certain hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House and of certain hon. Gentlemen and an hon. Lady on this side of the House—they say betting is bad and, therefore, they are in favour of prohibiting it; but I cannot understand 1263 the point of view of a large number of hon. and right hon. Members who are quite prepared to do a bit of credit betting whenever it suits themselves and at the same time will tell the House that the country will not allow us to pass a proper code of law for betting.If hon. Members opposite look at this point fairly, from the point of view of the whole population, they will come to the conclusion that if we are afraid to deal with betting by stamping it out, if we must acknowledge that people have the right to bet, it is more reasonable and proper to face that fact and make betting as decent as we possibly can. We all know that British people will bet, whatever Governments may say. If a working man desires to bet, and I think properly—[Interruption.] I am not a bit ashamed of that. I think it is a very healthy recreation for a working man to have some interest in following his fancy, in moderation; and right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite who sneer at what I say are the first people to go and have a bit on.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYOn a point of Order. I took no notice of the hon. Gentleman the first time, but this is the second time that the hon. Gentleman—why, I do not know—has intimated that we on these benches are engaged in betting and gambling. Is it in Order to pick out one section of the House, to accuse us of this weakness?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI think the hon. and gallant Member has too easily taken it to himself.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf the hon. Gentleman would take care to address me, he would avoid these difficulties.
§ Mr. SUTTONDo not accuse Mr. Speaker of betting.
§ Mr. DIXEYOne reason for bringing this Bill forward is that I feel that if the position is stated clearly hon. Members on all sides of the House must come to the conclusion that it is far better to face the situation and put betting on proper lines than to go on as we are at 1264 the present time. Since I last moved this Bill an important alteration has taken place in the law. Not only does the State now recognise betting, it also takes taxation from it, and I submit, in fairness to the people of the country, that the time has come when we ought to say that if betting is to be allowed at all it should be allowed under supervision.
§ Mr. SPEAKERDoes the hon. Member rise to oppose the Bill?
Viscountess ASTORI rise to oppose this Bill, as I opposed the Bill which the Government brought in. If betting be illegal, we should not look upon it as a means of revenue. Everything that some of us said when that Bill was brought in has happened. There have been two Committees set up on the taxation of betting and both have said that it was not practicable. It would not please the racing people, nor reduce betting, nor raise the revenue that was expected. It has really driven betting into the back streets. You cannot prove that it has reduced it. It simply means that we are going back to the middle of the last century, when, even in those days before the women had the vote, the country would not allow gambling houses to exist. If you are going to legalise betting, you will have to have betting houses all over the country. That is why we oppose the Bill. The logical outcome of the Government Bill must be the creation of licensed houses, and I think the Government now realise that the country would never stand it. The hon. Gentleman said something about it being a recreation for people to back their fancy. There are a great many things which people do and against which the Government cannot legislate, but this betting evil, we who are interested in the social conditions of the great mass of the people know, is to be found not only among the poor but also among the rich. If it be an evil, then some day the country will have to face up to it as an evil.
§ Brigadier - General Sir HENRY CROFTHas the Noble Lady never given a tip?
Viscountess ASTORNo, the people who were funny with me when the last Bill was before the House will live to 1265 be ashamed of it. May I remind hon. Members of the letters which they are getting from their constituents on this subject? This is not a thing which you can be funny about. It has aroused among the great mass of the people what we call the Nonconformist conscience of England. I warned the House then, and I warn them again. The hon. Gentleman cannot point to any part of the House, because, like all evils, this evil belongs to no section of the country, but to all classes. I do not know why the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) should take it personally.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYBecause the hon. Member for Penrith and Cockermouth (Mr. Dixey) mentioned these benchesm.
Viscountess ASTORIt is not confined to any section. I rise to oppose the Bill, and, if it goes to a Division, I hope that Members on this side of the House will take the chance that they did not take the last time when we warned them, and will vote against legalising betting houses which, no matter what the so-called sporting people say, is what this Bill would really mean, and in that you would be up against the moral conscience of the great mass of the people of the country.
§
Question put,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the recognition and legalisation of betting.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 44; Noes, 143.
1267| Division No. 65.] | AYES. | [4.5 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Finburgh, S. | Radford, E. A. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Raine, W. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Grant, Sir J. A. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Bellairs, Commander Cariyon W. | Hanbury, C. | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.) |
| Berry, Sir George | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Hayday, Arthur | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Holland, Sir Arthur | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan | Knox, Sir Alfred | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Malone, Major P. B. | Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Meyer. Sir Frank | Womersley, W. J. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Nicholson. O. (Westminster) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Penny, Frederick George | Mr. Everard and Dr. Watts. |
| Dixey, A. C. | Perring, Sir William George | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fits, West) | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Lansbury, George |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Fermoy, Lord | Lawson, John James |
| Baker, Walter | Gardner, J. p. | Lee, F. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth. Abertillery) | Gibbins, Joseph | Lindley, F. W. |
| Barnes, A. | Gillett, George M. | Lowth, T. |
| Batey, Joseph | Gosling, Harry | Lumley. L. R. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Lunn, William |
| Briant, Frank | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Mackinder, W. |
| Broad, F. A. | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John |
| Bromfield, William | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. |
| Bromley, J. | Groves, T. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Grundy, T. W. | Montague, Frederick |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Morris, R. H. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Cape, Thomas | Hardie, George D. | Naylor, T. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Harris, Percy A. | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Cluse, W. S. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Clynes. Rt. Hon. John R. | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Oliver, George Harold |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Owen, Major G. |
| Compton, Joseph | Hills, Major John Walter | Paling, W. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Hirst, G. H. | Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Potts, John S. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Rees, Sir Beddoe |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Duckworth, John | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Riley, Ben |
| Dunnico, H. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Ritson. J. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Kelly, W. T. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W.R., Elland) |
| England, Colonel A. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Rose, Frank H. |
| Salter. Dr. Alfred | Sutton, J. E. | Westwood, J. |
| Shepherd, Arthur Lewis | Taylor, R. A. | Whiteley, W. |
| Short. Alfred (Wednesbury) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Sitch, Charles, H. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Skelton, A. N. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Smillie, Robert | Tinker, John Joseph | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Townend, A. E. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Sneil, Harry | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Viant, S. P. | Windsor, Walter |
| Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles | Warrender, Sir Victor | Wright, W. |
| Stamford, T. W. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) | Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich) |
| Strauss, E. A. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney | |
| Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Wellock, Wilfred | Viscountess Astor and Mr. Barr. |
| Sullivan, J. | Welsh. J. C. |
Bill read a Second time.