§ Again considered in Committee.
§ [Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]
§ Question again proposed, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ Major HILLSI was putting in a plea for a reconsideration of the death 1127 penalty. I think that things have changed and are changing so much that even though this question was considered but a short time ago, it is worthy of further consideration now. As I said, I will deal only with the question of the death penalty for cowardice. My hon. and gallant Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office, who has just spoken, said very truly that everybody was afraid of something. I think they are, and it is a very curious thing. I heard of a case the other day of an officer who was famous for his courage, who won the V.C. and was killed in action afterwards, but who was terrified in a thunderstorm, and a great many people are afraid of far less dangerous things than war. Suppose in the cases with which we are dealing you do apply the penalty of death, what good do you do by it? You do no good to the man himself. You do not make the man any braver, for that man is shot. Do you make the comrades of that man any braver? Do you increase the spirit of self-sacrifice to which my hon. and gallant Friend referred, or do you make the comrades of that man more likely to go forward? I do not think you do. I do not think that human nature is constituted that way. I remember very well that in the Debate which we had last year my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Enfield (Colonel Applin) put the case for the death penalty as well, I thought, as it could be put, and he said:
It is not fair to ask a man to go to what amounts to certain death unless that man knows that his comrades will be shot unless they accompany him.I want to examine that argument. J think it is rather a strange one for a man to hold. I do not think a man will say" I will go forward upon this dangerous enterprise, and I shall be supported by my comrades on the right and loft because, although they are not as bravo as I am, they know they will be shot if they do not go." I do not think men's minds work in that way.I will recall for a moment a picture that many Members of this House have seen, a front line assault trench just before the zero hour. The men who have to go over the top will be thinking of various things, but I do not believe they will be thinking "Unless I go forward I shall be shot." I do not believe 1128 that for a moment. I do not believe their minds work in that way. Unless there is some very direct benefit to be derived from the example, there is no justification for shooting a man for cowardice. On that day he may be in a low state of vitality, or something may have happened to him, but all the complexities of human frailty are lumped into one and called cowardice and he is shot. All nations find the particular form of discipline under which their troops will fight best. In the past, no doubt, armies did fight best with the death penalty, but I think we are growing out of that, and that if we have to have another war—and I for one believe we can make war impossible —we shall find we have reached a stage at which the courage and patriotism of men will replace any stimulus which may have been supplied in the past by the death penalty.
Above all, I do not think you have the right to conscript an army, to take men from the plough, the shop and the counting house, men of all sorts and all conditions, of all degrees of physique and stamina and courage, and then, if a man break down in courage, to shoot him. I rather disagree with what an hon. and gallant Gentleman sitting in front of me said. He said that if a man volunteered and went to fight willingly, you had no right to shoot him. I think the case is the other way about, that if a man joins a force knowing that if he does not show bravery he will be shot, it is his own look out. The person you have not got the right to shoot is the conscript, whom you take willingly and compel to go into the field.
I was much impressed by the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper). He said that the fact that very few sentences were carried out showed that the law was not observed. I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend on the Front Bench completely answered that point. I recall to the House that 100 years ago men were hanged for sheep stealing, and for all kinds of thefts. That practice was put an end to largely by the growth of humanity, but very largely also because it was found that when the penalty was death juries would not convict. Over and over again Judges said that juries, in the face of conclusive evidence, refused to find a man guilty because they would not see a man condemned to death 1129 for stealing a sheep. If we retain the death penalty in the Army, we shall find just the same thing in another war—if we have to go through another war; we shall find that court-martials will find a man innocent, in spite of conclusive evidence of his guilt, if he has to be condemned to death.
I wonder whether I might make a suggestion to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State? I know that he, from motives of humanity, would be very glad if he could find some way of meeting the objections, and that he would be a happy man if he thought he could, without harm to the country, abolish the death penalty. Could not this matter be reconsidered? I quite agree that distinguished soldiers and sailors have to be consulted, but there need not he a committee; there could be a conference of men drawn from different activities and different professions—a distinguished Judge, and so on— who would reconsider the question in the light of the world as we see it to-day. I believe we shall very soon all agree that the death penalty must go the way of flogging. That is my opinion, but I may be wrong. I think that if my right hon. Friend himself would hold some sort of private conference, consulting the views of various people of distinction in different ranks of life, he would find a concensus of opinion for the abolition, or the partial abolition, of the death penalty. If a man deserts to the enemy, he has done some wilful act that comes within the system of criminal law; but if a man falls under the charge of cowardice, different considerations arise, and you can only justify shooting that man by the good example it will have on the man's comrades. I do not think that a good
§ example follows, and I plead for a reconsideration of the whole problem.
§ Colonel APPLINThere is one other point which has not cropped up in the Debate which is probably the most important thing to consider in connection with any proposal to abolish the death penalty, and that is, what is the alternative? I have seen the alternative. I served in the late War with a very gallant corps which had no death penalty. When a man—or an officer—was considered to have let those people down a court-martial was held by the men round the camp fire at night, and sentence was passed, and the man was executed on the next occasion by his judges. That must be the alternative in any democratic Army in which the whole people are compelled to go and fight. As an old soldier, I should like to see the death penalty abolished, if it were possible. It could be possible only with an Army such as we have—the Regular Army of this country, in which the death penalty may possibly not be necessary. I believe that with our modern spirit, our modern education, and the magnificent esprit de corps of our regiments, it might be possible to abolish this death penalty without any dire results to the Army. But so long as we have to depend on conscription from the moment we come into a serious war so long shall we be obliged to impose the death penalty for cowardice in the field, not only in justice to the other men, but because they would give a very rough justice to anyone whom they suspected of letting them down.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 134; Noes, 259.
1133| Division No. 59.] | AYES. | 6.50 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Clowes, S. | Gardner, J. P. |
| Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Cluse, W. S. | Glbbins, Joseph |
| Amnion, Charles George | Clynes. Rt. Hon. John R. | Gillett, George M. |
| Baker, Walter | Compton, Joseph | Gosling, Harry |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Connolly, M. | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) |
| Barnes, A. | Cooper, A. Duff | Greenall, T. |
| Barr, J. | Cove. W G. | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Dalton, Hugh | Groves, T. |
| Briant, Frank | Davies. Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Grundy, T. W. |
| Broad, F. A. | Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Hall, F. (York. W.R., Normanton) |
| Bromfield, William | Day, Colonel Harry | Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Bromley. J. | Dennison. R. | Hardie, George D. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Duncan, C. | Harris, Percy A. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Dunnico, H. | Hayday, Arthur |
| Buchanan, G. | Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Hayes, John Henry |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Fenby, T. D. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Hirst, G. H. | Oliver, George Harold | Sullivan, J. |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Palin, John Henry | Sutton, J. E. |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Paling, W. | Taylor. R. A. |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan. Neath) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Thomson, Trevelvan (Middiesbro. W.) |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Potts, John S. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Townend, A. E. |
| Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Riley, Ben | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Ritson, J. | Viant, S. P. |
| Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R.,Elland) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Kelly, W. T. | Salter, Or. Alfred | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Kennedy, T. | Scurr, John | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Sexton, James | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Kirkwood, D. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis | Westwood, J. |
| Lawrence, Susan | Shiels, Dr. Drummond | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Lawson, John James | Sinclair. Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Lee, F. | Sitch, Charles H. | Williams. David (Swansea, E.) |
| Lowth, T. | Smillie, Robert | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Lunn. William | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) | Wilson. R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Mackinder, W. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Windsor, Walter |
| MacLaren, Andrew | Snell, Harry | Wright. W. |
| Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Snowdon. Rt. Hon. Philip | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Montague, Frederick | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles | |
| Morris, R. H. | Stamford, T. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Morrison, R. c. (Tottenham, N.) | Stephen, Campbell | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. |
| Nalylor, T. E. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Whiteley. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Colfox, Major Wm- Phillips | Harland. A. |
| Albery, Irving James | Cope, Major William | Harney, E. A. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Couper, J. B. | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Amery, Rt Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Hawke, John Anthony |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Crookshank.Cpt. H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. |
| Atholl Duchess of | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Davidson. Major-General Sir J. H. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) |
| Balniel, Lord | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Herbert. S.(York, N.R.,Scar. & Wh'by) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hogg, Rt. Hon.Sir D.(St. Marylebone) |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Dixcy, A. C. | Holt, Captain H. P. |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Duckworth, John | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Bennett, A. J. | England, Colonel A. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. |
| Berry, Sir George | Erskine Lord (Somerset,Weston-S.-M.) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Huntingfield. Lord |
| Birchall, Major J.,Dearman | Everard, W. Lindsay | Hutchison.G.A.Clark (Midi'n & P'bl's) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Sklpton) | Fairfax. Captain J. G. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Faile, Sir Bertram G. | lliffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Fanshawe, Commander G. D. | Inskip. Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Fermoy, Lord | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Bowater. Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Fielden, E. B. | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Finburgh, S. | Jones. G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William |
| Brass, Captain W. | Forrest, W. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Kindersley. Major G. M. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Fraser, Captain Ian | King, Captain Henry Douglas |
| Briggs. J. Harold | Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Ganzonl, Sir John | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Gates, Percy | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Brown, Brig..Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Little, Dr. E. Graham |
| Bull. Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) |
| Burman, J. B. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Looker. Herbert William |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Goff. Sir Park | Lougher, Lewis |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Gower, Sir Robert | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Grace, John | Lumley. L. R. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Lynn, Sir R. J. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Grant, Sir J. A. | MacAndrew Major Charles Glen |
| Cayzer. Sir C. (Chester, City) | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) | Greene, W. P. Crawford | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Maclntyre, Ian |
| Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Grotrlan, H. Brent | McLean, Major A. |
| Charterls, Brigadier-General J. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Macmillnn, Captain H. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John |
| Clayton, G. C. | Hall. Capt. W. D.A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Macpherson. Rt. Hon. James I. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Macqulsten, F. A. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hammersley, S. S. | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Malone, Major P. B. | Richardson, Sir P. W.(Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Margesson. Captain D. | Ropner, Major L. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Rye, F. G. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Meller. R. J. | Salmon, Major I. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Meyer, Sir Frank | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Ward. Lt.-Col.A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Mltne, J. S. Wardlaw | Sandeman, N. Stewart | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Sanderson, Sir Frank | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Moreing, Captain A. H. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) | Wells, S. R. |
| Nelson, Sir Frank | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.) | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | White. Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- |
| Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Shepperson, E. W. | Wigglns, William Martin |
| Nicholson, Col. Rt.Hn.W.G.(Ptrsl'ld.) | Skelton, A. N. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Nuttall, Ellis | Slaney, Major P. Kenyan | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Owen, Major G. | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Williams. Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Smithers, Waldron | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Perring, Sir William George | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Windsor-dive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Sprot, Sir Alexander | Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Peto, G. (Somerset. Frome) | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Pownall, Sir Assheton | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | Withers, John James |
| Price, Major C. W. M. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Radford, E. A. | Storry-Deans, R. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Raine, W. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Ramsden, E. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. | Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) |
| Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Remer, J. R. | Styles, Captain H. Walter | Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich) |
| Remnant, Sir James | Tasker, R. Inigo. | |
| Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Templeton, W. P. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. F. C. Thomson and Mr. Penny. |