§ "to provide, during Twelve Months, for the Discipline and Regulation of the Army and Air Force," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 94.]
§ Mr. GILLETTI desire to move, to reduce the Vote by £100. I am much indebted to the First Lord for the limited explanation he gave of the points I raised earlier this evening, but I now want to put them a little more definitely to him. In an answer to a question in this House about a year ago on the subject of the Admiralty Headquarters Staff, the First Lord said that the staff in July, 1914, numbered 2,072. and the monthly cost was £42,000. The Headquarters Staff on the 1st January, 1926, according to this answer, numbered 3,280, and the monthly cost was £106,000.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member is referring to the cost at the Admiralty?
§ Mr. GILLETTNo. I understand that the term "Admiralty Headquarters Staff" must include more than appears on the Admiralty Vote. The number of people employed under the Admiralty Vote is only a few hundreds, while it is obvious that the men to whom I refer number about 3,000 and a large proportion of them must come under Vote 1; and that is why I am raising it. I think the figures under Vote 12 are only 210, and I am referring to the 3,000 men employed on the Headquarters Staff, as I presume the larger number must come under this Vote. The answer which the First Lord gave me in regard to this matter was that the Navy is something like a garden and is having a system of intensive culture applied to it. Although we have a Navy which is now 100,000 instead of 144,000 men, the staff has to be increased from, roughly, 2,000 to 3,000. The figures given a few days ago by the right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young) was that the increase was 160 per cent. as compared with the numbers before the War. The answer given now, and also last year, does not make it suffi- 122 ciently plain to this House and the country why this should take place in the Navy, for nothing comparable to it has taken place in the Army. Yet we have this extraordinary increase in numbers, which has been much criticised, not only in this House but in the country as well. In the answer given about a year ago, it was stated that the reasons for this increase were that there were more men in receipt of pensions and that typewriters were now used instead of letters being written by hand.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI think it is quite clear that this is a point which must be raised on Vote 12. The present Vote is for the wages of the officers and men of the Royal Navy and Marines, and it does not seem to cover this payment, which is quite a separate Vote, under Vote 12 for the Admiralty staff.
§ Mr. GILLETTHow can these 3,100 men be possibly included in the Admiralty staff which is only 200? I suggest that the Admiralty Headquarters staff covers a larger number of people, officials scattered all over the country in different offices, and that they are paid under the Vote we are now considering.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe First Lord informs me that they are not borne on Vote 1. I cannot see where else they can be found.
Captain CROOKSHANKIs not Vote I headed "Fleet Services?" How can sea service be inside any office in this country?
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam)Vote 12 covers the point raised by the hon. Member.
§ Mr. GILLETTIf we turn to Vote I and add all those who are dealt with under it, you get 100,000 men, and all those who appear under all the other Votes total 1,779, of whom 700 are in the medical establishment alone. That leaves about 1,000 men who are not included, and how that 1,000 can include 3,100. I do not know. I think the First Lord must be in error and in spite of what he has said I think I am in order.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI cannot follow the hon. Member's ingenious arithmetic. At the moment I am quite clear that the present Vote is for the pay of those 123 engaged on fleet services, and those engaged on fleet services are not the persons to whom the hon. Member is referring. Vote 12, I think, is the proper place to raise it.
§ Mr. GILLETTIf that be so, I hope when we come to consider Vote 12 that you will kindly remember that if I want to speak about these 3,000 men on a Vote which only deals with 200 men you will not rule me out of order, and I hope the First Lord will not raise the point either.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI do not think the hon. Member ought to say that. It certainly will be in order on that Vote because the First Lord's salary comes under it, and the hon. Member can attack all his misdoings.
§ Mr. GILLETTI did not mean to be disrespectful, and I will withdraw the remark. There is one other point I want to put, and that is why in the Service for 1927, flag commissioned officers have been increased by 300 and subordinate officers by nearly 100. Can the First Lord give us any information on that point? Are we to understand that the number of ships are to be greater this year than last year, or does it mean that he is retaining officers for the new ships which he expects to launch this year and that next year we shall find that petty officers and seamen of the Navy have also increased in order to fit in with the larger number of officers he is asking for now?
§ Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAMIt is somewhat difficult to give the hon. Member an answer to a question of that kind without notice. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, it is. It is only reasonable to give notice if you are going to ask questions regarding details. All I can say at the moment is that the increase is on the Vote, but I shall be prepared to give an answer when the opportunity arises later on, and I will give the hon. Member a written answer as soon as I can do so.
§ Mr. W. BAKERI beg to move to leave out "£14,715,300," and to insert instead thereof "£14,715,200."
I am really amazed at the answer given by the Parliamentary Secretary. I 124 have been present at many discussions on Votes of this character and I certainly have never witnessed such an attempt at an answer. There has never been a discussion on Navy Votes unless the First Lord and the Parliamentary Secretary have been prepared to answer careful and deliberate criticisms directed against them. I do not know whether it is in order to refer to the very strong force of advisers which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has, but if it is in order I should like to say that the only difficulty in. which the Parliamentary Secretary is placed is that he has not had sufficient time to obtain the information. I desire to move a reduction of £100 in the Vote to signify our dissatisfaction of the state of affairs.
§ Mr. RENNIE SMITHI beg to second the Amendment.
Sir R. HALLI think the hon. Member who has raised this point must realise that the Parliamentary Secretary has only had a very short time to make himself acquainted with the Estimates. I put it to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, that if they were in office and one of them had to jump straight into the Estimates and take charge of them in this House, he would find the same difficulty as my hon. and gallant Friend has found. It would have been perfectly simple for my hon. and gallant Friend to have given an answer which would have satisfied hon. Members opposite, but it might not have been an absolutely correct answer. Rather than do that my hon. and gallant Friend delayed the answer until such time as he could be entirely satisfied as to the correctness of it.
§ Mr. LEES-SMITHWe certainly do not wish to press too hardly on an hon. and gallant Gentleman who has lately taken office, but I would point out that the First Lord is in his place and the House must recognise that over and over again it occurs on the Report stage of Estimates of this kind that questions involving details are put and those questions are frequently answered at a few seconds' notice. There have been at least five minutes since this question was put and the First Lord has had plenty of time to obtain expert official information on the subject. If the right hon. 125 Gentleman is now prepared to supply this rather elementary information I am prepared to resume my seat.
§ Mr. THURTLEI do not know whether the First Lord intends to give the House a reply after his consultation, but he ought to do so. The hon. and gallant Member for Eastbourne (Sir R. Hall) entirely missed the point in his remarks. I do not think there is a single Member on this side who would presume to reflect in the slightest degree on the ability or the industry of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty. We all have a very high regard for him and his efficiency, but the point is that we as Members of the House are guardians of the public purse, and we want to be quite certain, before we pass any Vote, that it is being properly accounted for. We have asked perfectly fair questions on this particular Vote, and for some extraordinary reason we have not yet been able to get an answer. I ask the First Lord or his very efficient assistant to take the opportunity now of giving the answers to these very important questions.
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI am not sure that the hon. Member knows what are the very important questions to which be refers. I understood the question to be, what was the reason for the increase of 316 flag and commissioned officers in 1927, as shown on page 13, Vote 1. The answer is that during this year new ships and large ones will come into commission, and we have to train and prepare more officers and men for them and for other ships now under construction. The "Rodney" and "Nelson" and some of the cruisers which the Labour Government laid down will come into commission in the course of the year, and naturally we require more officers and men to man them.
§ Mr. THURTLEMay I point out that, simultaneously with an increase in subordinate officers there is a decrease in the number of warrant officers required. There is a decrease of no fewer than 25 warrant officers, while there is an increase of 98 subordinate officers. How can the right hon. Gentleman explain this apparent contradiction?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI really think that if the hon. Gentleman wanted to raise questions of very small detail, he might have taken the trouble to give me notice. I was given to understand that no question was to be raised to-day except the question of the Disarmament Conference. So far as small points like that mentioned by the hon. Member are concerned, it is very easy to give an answer, but not to do so offhand. I shall be glad to give the hon. Member an answer if he will let me send it to him in writing.
§ Mr. STEPHENI think it is remarkable that the First Lord should take such a line. When he is presenting Estimates he should be in possession of the knowledge to defend them. I do not think that the excuse given is good enough. The public service comes first, and if the First Lord was conscious that he would be in such difficulties owing to the change in the occupancy of the position of Parliamentary Secretary, the reorganisation of the Tory party might have stood over until these Estimates were through. It is very unfortunate that the state of chaos and disorganisation of the Tory party has left the First Lord of the Admiralty in the pitiable position in which he is placed to-night.
§ Question put, "That '£14,715,300' stand part of the Resolution."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 215; Noes, 89.
129| Division No. 52.] | AYES. | [7.54 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Campbell, E. T. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Berry, Sir George | Chilcott, Sir Warden |
| Albery, Irving James | Blundell, F. N. | Cobb, Sir Cyril |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Brass, Captain W. | Cooper, A. Duff |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Brassey, Sir Leonard | Cope, Major William |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Briscoe, Richard George | Crooke, J. Smodiey (Deritend) |
| Atkinson, C. | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Cunliffe, Sir Herbert |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Curzon, Captain Viscount |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Bullock, Captain M. | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Burman, J. B. | Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Burton, Colonel H. W. | Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset,Yeovil) |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hurd, Percy A. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Hurst, Gerald B. | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Dixey, A. C. | Hutchison, G. A.Clark (Midl'n&P'bl's) | Richardson Sir P. W.(Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Jacob, A. E. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Ellis, R. G. | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Jephcott, A. R. | Rye, F. G. |
| Fermoy, Lord | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dtworth, Putney) |
| Fielden, E. B. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Sandon, Lord |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Savery, S. S. |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Knox, Sir Alfred | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Lamb, J. Q. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Lister, Cunilffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Skelton, A. N. |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Loder, J. de V. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Gates, Percy | Lougher, L. | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Smithers, Waldron |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Lumley, L. R. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Goff, Sir Park | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Gower, Sir Robert | McLean, Major A. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Grace, John | Macmillan, Captain H. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Macquisten, F. A. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Margesson, Captain D. | Templeton, W. P. |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Meller, R. J. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Merriman, F. B. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Meyer, Sir Frank | Tinne, J. A. |
| Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Hanbury, C. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Hariand, A. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Headlam, Lieut-Colonel C. M. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Wells, S. R. |
| Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd,Henley) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Nuttall, Ellis | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Penny, Frederick George | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St.Marylebone) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Withers, John James |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Pilcher, G. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Holt, Capt. H. P. | Pownall, Sir Assheton | Womersley, W. J. |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Price, Major C. W. M. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). |
| Hopkinson, Sir A.(Eng. Universities) | Radford, E. A. | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Raine, W. | Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich) |
| Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Ramsden, E. | |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney,N.) | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Remer, J. R. | Colonel Gibbs and Captain Lord |
| Huntingfield, Lord | Rentoul, G. S. | Stanley. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Grundy, T. W. | Montague, Frederick |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Morris, R. H. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhamton, Bilston) | Hardie, George D. | Naylor, T. E. |
| Baker, Walter | Hayday, Arthur | Palin, John Henry |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Paling, W. |
| Batey, Joseph | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Pethick-Lawrence. F. W. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Potts, John S. |
| Briant, Frank | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Purcell, A. A. |
| Broad, F. A. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Bromfield, William | Kelly, W. T. | Ritson, J. |
| Bromley, J. | Kennedy, T. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R.,Elland) |
| Clowes, S. | Kirkwood, D. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lansbury, George | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Cove, W. G. | Lawrence, Susan | Scurr, John |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lee, F. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Lindley, F. W. | Smillie, Robert |
| Duncan, C | Livingstone, A. M. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Lowth, T. | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Mackinder, W. | Smith Rennie (Penistone) |
| Gillett, George M. | MacLaren, Andrew | Snell, Harry |
| Gosling, Harry | March, S. | Snowden, Rt, Hon. Philip |
| Groves, T. | Maxton, James | Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) |
| Stamford, T. W. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Stephen, Campbell | Viant, S. P. | Wright, W. |
| Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Sullivan, Joseph | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney | |
| Thomas, Rt. Hon, James H. (Darby) | Welsh, J. C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) | Williams, David (Swansea, East) | Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Whiteley. |
| Thurtle, Ernest | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
Third Resolution read a Second time.
§ Mr. LEES-SMITHI beg to move to leave out "£1,907,000," and to insert instead thereof "£1,906,900."
I find on page 110 of these Estimates that this Vote includes a sum of £291,000 for the berth at Singapore. I have already discussed that subject this afternoon. I do not propose to repeat any of the arguments that have been used, but in order to express our opinion upon this undertaking we propose to take the House to a Division.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Mr. GILLETTBefore the Question is put there is one question I should like to ask the Minister, if I may be allowed to do so. I do it with all the more interest because I see that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Rochester (Sir G. Hohler) is in his place. I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that we are voting about £25,000 towards the dockyard expenses and other fees at Chatham. I have a very vivid recollection that in some of the Debates on this subject a year ago those hon. Members who were best qualified to speak on the subject of air warfare said that Chatham Dockyard was out of date because of its position, and that the best thing to do would be to get rid of Chatham Dockyard.
§ Sir GERALD HOHLERThat idea has long since been exploded.
§ Mr. GILLETTThey wanted to have a dockyard somewhere else which was in a better position. Before we vote this sum of money, which includes a sum which, in the end, will amount to £37,500 for a boat house and other items, I should like to know from the Minister if the Board of Admiralty are quite satisfied that it is worth while going on spending these large sums of money on Chatham in view of the dangers which have been pointed out in the past by those who are 130 well acquainted with aerial warfare, and who have said that Chatham is now out of date.
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI did, as a matter of fact, in my speech, in introducing the Estimates, actually mention the Boat House at Chatham. I said that I was quite satisfied on that point, and I am sure that anyone who has been to Chatham and who has seen the old Boat House will realise the necessity for tin's work.
§ Mr. GILLETTI think the right hon. Gentleman has missed my point. My point is not that the old Boat House is out of date, but it is the question as to whether it is worth while paying any money at all for Chatham, and whether Chatham should be done away with.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope)The hon. Gentleman is now making a second speech.
§ Mr. KELLYI was hoping that before we were asked to go into the Division Lobby on this Vote we would have heard a little more as to the amount of money to be spent at Portland, and particularly in regard to Holton Heath. There is a considerable sum for new buildings, and we have had no explanation at all with regard to it. There is also the question of Malta. I see a great many items for expenditure in regard to Malta, and we have not heard one word as to the manner in which this money is being expended at Malta. I hope either the First Lord of the Admiralty or the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty will give some explanation as to these amounts spent at Holton Heath and Malta.
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANThere, again, if the hon. Member had done me the honour of listening to what I said on Monday, he would have known that I mentioned both those items.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThe right hon. Gentleman can only speak again by leave of the House.
§ Mr. W. BAKERI regret the right hon. Gentleman should attempt to evade the necessity of replying to a quite polite question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett). This is not a matter of detail. It is a broad question of policy, and if, as my hon. Friend has suggested, it is doubtful whether the continuance of the dockyard at Chatham is sound from the national point of view, then I take it that the First Lord will be well aware of all the details surrounding any decision concerning that dockyard. I would ask that, even though it may not be possible for the right hon. Gentleman himself to reply, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty will deal with this point. It is not satisfactory that we should be told that it is impossible to give a reply because the question asked concerns detail, and then to have a failure to reply on the question of principle. I sincerely hope that a reply will be given.
§ Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAMFirst of all, in regard to Chatham. It is considered that Chatham is suitable and the Admiralty would not have required to spend this money unless they were so convinced. As a great deal of money has already been spent for the improvement of Chatham, it would be obviously impossible to close it down in a minute. Whatever the future or the ultimate fate of the dockyard at Chatham may be, or the fate of a dockyard anywhere else, is a matter as to which neither the First Lord nor myself can give any opinion at the present moment, but so long as there is a dockyard there it is perfectly clear that it must be kept efficient and that is what we are trying our best to do.
§ Question put, "That '£1,907,000' stand part of the Resolution."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 213; Noes, 88.
133| Division No. 53.] | AYES. | [8.10 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Dixey, A. C. | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hohler, Sir Geraid Fitzroy |
| Albery, Irving James | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Holt, Captain H. P. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Ellis, R. G. | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Everard, W. Lindsay | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Fermoy, Lord | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Fielden, E. B. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Ford, Sir P. J. | Hudson, Capt. A. U.M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Atkinson, C. | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Huntingfield, Lord |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Fraser, Captain Ian | Hurd, Percy A. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Hutchison,G.A.Clark(Midl'n & P'bl's) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Ganzoni, Sir John | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Gates, Percy | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Berry, Sir George | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Jacob, A. E. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. | Goff, Sir Park | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Gower, Sir Robert | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Grace, John | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | King, Captain Henry Douglas |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Burman, J. B. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Locker-Lampscn, Com. O. (Handsw t[...]) |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Loder, J. de V. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Lougher, L. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastb'rne) | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Lumley, L. R. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hanbury, C. | Lynn, Sir R. J. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | McLean, Major A. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Harland, A. | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Cope, Major William | Harrison, G. J. C. | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Hawke, John Anthony | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Henderson,Capt.R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Meller, R. J |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Merriman, F. B. |
| Davies, Maj.Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Herbert,S.(York, N.R.,Scar. & Wh'by) | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hills, Major John Walter | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Ropner, Major L. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Rye, F. G. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Nelson, Sir Frank | Sandeman, A. Stewart | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Sandon, Lord | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Savery, S. S. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Nuttall, Ellis | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Wells, S. R. |
| O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Shepperson, E. W. | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Skelton, A. N. | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple- |
| Penny, Frederick George | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Smithers, Waldron | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Pilcher, G. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Litchfield) |
| Pownall, Sir Assheton | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | Windsor-dive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Price, Major C. W. M. | Storry-Deans, R. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Radford, E. A. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. | Withers, John James |
| Raine, W. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Ramsden, E. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Remer, J. R. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. | Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich) |
| Rice, Sir Frederick | Tasker, R. Inigo. | |
| Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Templeton, W. P. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) | Major Sir George Hennessy and Captain Bowyer. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Ritson, J. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R.,Elland) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Baker, Walter | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Scurr, John |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Barnes, A. | Kelly, W. T. | Smillie, Robert |
| Batey, Joseph | Kennedy, T. | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Kirkwood, D. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Lansbury, George | Snell, Harry |
| Broad, F. A. | Lawrence, Susan | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bromfield, William | Lee, F. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Bromley, J. | Lindley, F. W. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Clowes, S. | Livingstone, A. M. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lowth, T. | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Cove, W. G. | Mackinder, W. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | MacLaren, Andrew | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) |
| Day, Colonel Harry | March, S. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Duncan, C. | Maxton, James | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Montague, Frederick | Viant, S. P. |
| Gardner, J. P. | Morris, R. H. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Gillett, George M. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Gosling, Harry | Naylor, T. E. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent) | Palin, John Henry | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Groves, T. | Paling, W. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wright, W. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Potts, John S. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hardie, George D. | Purcell, A. A. | |
| Mayday, Arthur | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Whiteley and Mr. B. Smith. |
Resolutions agreed to.
§ It being after a quarter past Sight of the Clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put.