§ Mr. A. GREENWOODI beg to move, in page 2, line 26, to leave out Sub-section (1).
§ Under the ruling given by Mr. Speaker, it was understood that this Amendment and the following one, which stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder)—in page 2, line 26, to leave out the words "commencement of this Act," and to insert instead thereof the words "fourth day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine,'—were to be moved formally.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'commencement,' in line 26, stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 224; Noes, 125.
1641| Division No. 453.] | AYES. | [5.46 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Clarry, Reginald George | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hacking, Douglas H. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Cope, Major William | Hanbury, C. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Harland, A. |
| Atkinson, C. | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) |
| Balniel, Lord | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Hartington, Marquess of |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Hawke, John Anthony |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. |
| Berry, Sir George | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Bethel, A. | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Drewe, C. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hills, Major John Waller |
| Blundell, F. N. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Hilton, Cecil |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Ellis, R. G. | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Everard, W. Lindsay | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C R. I | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N) |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Fermoy, Lord | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Fielden, E. B. | Huntingfield, Lord |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Hurd, Percy A. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Frece, Sir Walter de | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Burman, J. B. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Iveagh, Countess of |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Ganzoni, Sir John | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Caine, Gordon Hall | Gates, Percy | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Kindersley, Major G. M. |
| Cassels, J. D. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Cautley, Sir-Henry S. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Gower, Sir Robert | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Grace, John | Lamb, J. O. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) |
| Christie, J. A. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Guinness. Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Looker, Herbert William |
| Lowe, Sir Francis William | Pennefather, Sir John | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Penny, Frederick George | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Lumley, L. R. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Power, Sir John Cecil | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Pownall, Sir Assheton | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| MacIntyre, Ian | Preston, William | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| McLean, Major A. | Price, Major C. W. M. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Macmillan, Captain H. | Raine, Sir Walter | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Ramsden, E. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Macquisten, F. A. | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| MacRobert, Alexander M. | Remnant, Sir James | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Rentoul, G. S. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Malone, Major P. B. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Margesson, Captain D. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Wells, S. R. |
| Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple |
| Meyer, Sir Frank | Salmon, Major I. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Sandeman, N. Stewart | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Sanderson, Sir Frank | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Moreing, Captain A. H. | Sandon, Lord | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Nelson, Sir Frank | Shepperson, E. W. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Skelton, A. N. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | |
| Nuttall, Ellis | Smith-Carington, Neville W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Oakley, T. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Major Sir George Hennessy and |
| Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Sprot, Sir Alexander | Mr. F. C. Thomson. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hardie, George D. | Rose, Frank H. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hayday, Arthur | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hayes, John Henry | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Baker, Walter | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Barnes, A. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, G. H. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Broad, F. A. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Snell, Harry |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hudson, J. H. Huddersfield | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) |
| Buchanan, G. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cape, Thomas | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Kirkwood, D. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lansbury, George | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Connolly, M. | Lindley, F. W. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Cove, W. G. | Lowth, T. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lunn, William | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Mackinder, W. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon C. P. |
| Dalton, Hugh | MacLaren, Andrew | Varley, Frank B. |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Viant, S. P. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Dennison, R. | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Duncan, C. | March, S. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dunnico, H. | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Edge, Sir William | Montague, Frederick | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Morris, R. H. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Westwood, J. |
| Forrest, W. | Murnin, H. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Gardner, J. P. | Naylor, T. E. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gillett, George M. | Owen, Major G. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Gosling, Harry | Palin, John Henry | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Paling, W. | Windsor, Walter |
| Greenall, T. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wright, W. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Potts, John S. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Rees, Sir Beddoe | |
| Groves, T. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Grundy, T. W. | Riley, Ben | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Whiteley. |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Ritson, J. |
§ Mr. MACKINDERI beg to move, in page 2, line 26, to leave out the words 1642 "commencement of this Act," and to insert instead thereof the words "fourth 1643 day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine."
§ Mr. R. YOUNGI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 227; Noes, 128.
1645| Division No. 454.] | AYES. | [5.54 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Ganzoni, Sir John | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Gates, Percy | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Atkinson, C. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Moreing, Captain A. H. |
| Balniel, Lord | Gower, Sir Robert | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Grace, John | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Grotrian, H. Brent | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrst'ld.) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Berry, Sir George | Hacking, Douglas H. | Oakley, T. |
| Bethel, A. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Hanbury, C. | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Penny, Frederick George |
| Blundell, F. N. | Harland, A. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Hartington, Marquess of | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Preston, William |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Hawke, John Anthony | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Ramsden, E. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Remnant, Sir James |
| Burman, J. B. | Hills. Major John Waller | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hilton, Cecil | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hopkins. J. W. W. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Caine, Gordon Hall | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Huntingfield, Lord | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hurd, Percy A. | Sandon, Lord |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hurst, Gerald B. | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W) |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Christie, J. A. | Iveagh, Countess of | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Jephcott, A. R. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.). |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Knox, Sir Alfred | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Lamb, J. Q. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Locker- Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Looker, Herbert William | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Lumley, L. R. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Drewe, C. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Ellis, R. G. | MacIntyre, Ian | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | McLean, Major A. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Macquisten, F. A. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Fermoy, Lord | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Wells, S. R. |
| Fielden, E. B. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Malone, Major P. B. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Fremantle. Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Wolmer, Viscount | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) | Major Sir George Hennessy and |
| Womersley, W. J. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. | Major Cope. |
| Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Rose, Frank H. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hayday, Arthur | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hayes, John Henry | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Baker, Walter | Hirst, G. H. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Barnes, A. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Broad, F. A. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Snell, Harry |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) |
| Buchanan, G. | Kennedy, T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cape, Thomas | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kirkwood, D. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lansbury, George | Strauss, E. A. |
| Clynes, Right Hon. John R. | Lawson, John James | Sutton, J. E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lindley, F. W. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Connolly, M. | Livingstone, A. M. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Cove, W. G. | Lowth, T. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lunn, William | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Mackinder, W. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Dalton, Hugh | MacLaren, Andrew | Varley, Frank B. |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Viant, S. P. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Dennison, R. | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Duncan, C. | March, S. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dunnico, H. | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Edge, Sir William | Montague, Frederick | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Evans Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Morris, R. H. | Welsh. J. C. |
| Forrest, W. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Westwood, J |
| Gardner, J. P. | Murnin, H. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Naylor, T. E. | Whiteley, W. |
| Gillett, George M. | Oliver, George Harold | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Gosling, Harry | Owen, Major G. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Palin, John Henry | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Greenall, T. | Paling, W. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Windsor, Walter |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Potts, John S. | Wright, W. |
| Groves, T. | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Riley, Ben | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Ritson, J. | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles |
| Hardie, George D. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Edwards. |
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI beg to move, in page 2, line 30, after the word "that," to insert the words:
This Amendment has to be taken together with the consequential Amendment—in page 2, line 33, after the word "women," to insert the words" (whether in receipt of such an increase or not)."
- "(a) young men and young women who are in receipt of an increase of benefit in respect of dependants; and
- (b)."
The effect of the Amendment is to allow adult rates of benefit in respect of those young men or young women who have a dependant. A proposal was made in Committee that young men or young women should be allowed the adult rate of benefit if they were married. Any proposal of that kind seems to me to be too limited in one respect and too wide in another. So far as these rates are 1646 approved at all there is no real justification for extending them where a young man out of work is married and has a wife who is in work. On the other hand, they are too narrow in one respect, because probably the case of real hardship, as I have indicated earlier this afternoon, is where there may be a young man who has a mother dependent on him. If I may repeat in very few words what I said earlier this afternoon, I was trying to think what would be the case of a young man or a young woman under this Bill where it could be said that a great deal of hardship might result, and it seemed to me that a case of real hardship was where there was a young man who had dependants, and particularly, shall we say, an aged mother. In the case of a young man with dependants, probably it is not so much a case of the cost of the dependant as 1647 that his own personal expenses in these circumstances tend to go up, because he might naturally be expected to have a house of his own. For these reasons I have put down this Amendment, so that in a case where a man has a dependant in respect of whom he draws benefit, he should be allowed himself to receive benefit on his own account at the adult rate.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendment made:
§ In page 2, line 33, after the word "women," insert the words "(whether in receipt of such an increase or not)."—[Sir A. Steel-Maitland.]
§ Mr. GREENWOODI beg to move, in page 3, line 28, leave out paragraph (c).
This question was discussed in the Committee stage, and we now move the omission of paragraph (c) not with the idea of bringing out any real differences of opinion but in order to get a little further explanation of the meaning of the Clause. The purpose of paragraph (c) is to alter the definition of "a dependent child." The Act of 1922, when this Amendment has been incorporated, will read as follows:
The expression 'a dependent child' means a child under the age of 14 years who is maintained wholly or mainly by the person entitled to benefit.At present it reads:wholly or mainly at the cost of the person entitled to benefit.I understand that the purpose in making this proposed alteration in the Act of 1922 is to guard against those cases where a father claims dependants' benefit in respect of a child towards whose maintenance he makes no contribution whatever. If the Clause is intended only to meet that sort of case we should support it, because there is no case for allowing benefit in respect of "a dependent child" where the parent has really never fulfilled his own responsibilities. A case was raised in the previous discussion regarding children who might be in institutions, Poor Law institutions or other institutions, where the parent might be making what those who are responsible for those institutions thought a reasonable contribution, but which did not, as a matter of fact, mean "wholly or mainly maintaining the 1648 child." He might be maintaining it to the limits of his capacity as determined by the authorities of the institution who had care of the child. If that be so, then I should hope that the Clause would cover such a case. There might be a hard case where for one reason or another a crippled child is in an institution and the father is not maintaining it except partially, not "wholly or mainly." If those cases are covered we have no exception to take to the Clause, but I am a little doubtful whether there may not be real cases of hardship arising where parents who are contributing towards the maintenance of a child in an institution up to the limit of their ability to pay might be deprived of dependant's benefit, although they would in fact, really me maintaining the child.
§ Mr. DUNCANI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI am advised that that case is actually covered. The object of the Amendment is merely to confine the right to the 2s. for the child to cases where the claimant for benefit is, in fact, spending the money on the child. There is no need to take up the time of the House in explaining how this wrong phraseology has crept in. It is merely a case of wrong phraseology. I am advised that supposing a child is in a Poor Law institution and that the father contributes toward its maintenance a sum of 2s. or in excess of 2s., the case is covered and he will be able to claim in respect of it. This is only intended to meet cases where there is no payment towards a child's maintenance or no payment of as much as 2s. towards it.
§ Mr. HAYDAYI should like to pursue the point a little further, because a case has been put to me by a constituent as to the possible application of this provision in an adverse manner. It was pointed out to me that owing to housing difficulties and the father being unemployed and there being no mother, a man might go in search of work and might not be able to provide a full home for the children, and one or more of the children under 14 years of age might be taken care of by someone. The Act at present says "at the cost of." Such a case would be covered so long as the man himself provides for their cost. It is now proposed to insert the words "main- 1649 tained by." Does it mean, in that case, that the child must actually be in residence with the parent? The right hon. Gentleman will understand the anxiety of people outside this House on this subject, where there is a housing difficulty, a man goes to seek work, there is no mother and he gets someone to look after the children while he is searching for work. The children are being maintained at his cost, because he sends on the money, but under the Amendment as a result of the insertion of the words "maintained by," must the children be actually in residence with him?
§ Mr. BETTERTONI do not think the hon. Member need be under any misapprehension in regard to that. If a man goes away in search of work and he is paying for his child who is in care of someone else, he is clearly maintaining it, and, therefore, the difficulty which the hon. Member has in mind is one about which he need have no fear. If he is actually paying for the child he will be covered.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDMay I correct a misapprehension which may occur in the amount which should be paid? I find that it is 5s. he will have to pay in order to be regarded as maintaining.
§ Mr. CONNOLLYI should like to put one question. Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean that if a person has a child in an institution for which he is paying 1s. 6d. per week, on the present assessment, he will be deprived of the 2s. in respect of the child; or does it mean the difference between 1s. 6d. and 2s.?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI would say this with reserve—no lawyer can speak entirely without his book—that in that case he would not be entitled to the 2s.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.