§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain FitzRoy)The first Amendment I select is that standing in the name of the hon. Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant)—[in page 13, line 6, to leave out "17s.," and to insert instead thereof "20s."]. Like the discussion on the First Schedule, the discussion of this Amendment can include discussion of that in the name of the hon. Member for East Ham North (Miss Lawrence)—[in page 13, line 7, to leave out "15s." and to insert instead thereof "18s."]. There may be a Division afterwards on that Amendment, but the discussion should take place on the first Amendment.
§ Mr. VIANTI beg to move, in page 13, line 6, to leave out "17s. 0d.," and to insert instead thereof "20s. 0d."
We feel that the payment of 17s. is by no means adequate, and we consider that for the contribution paid and for the changes that have been made in the Bill, generally of a restrictive character, we are not asking too much as a set-off when we ask that the benefit shall be increased to 20s. I quite anticipate that the Minister will say that our proposal would be a departure from the basis upon which this Bill has been built, but we feel that the restrictions in the Bill, as compared with other Measures that have preceded it, have not been taken into consideration in any way by the actuary responsible for the financial structure of the 1232 Bill; and again we feel that, the cost of living being such as it is at the present time, even 20s. per week is far too small. We would prefer to have gone further and suggested that it should be a good deal more, but I hope that the Minister will be prepared to meet our proposal in the spirit in which I am moving it, and that he will be prepared to appreciate the inadequacy of the sum of 17s.
When a man or a woman is unemployed, at least as far as my experience goes, it often means that the expenses entailed are far heavier than while he or she was in employment, more especially in view of the fact that the majority of men and women when they are unemployed are unable to rely upon the Employment Exchange to get them employment, and of necessity have to do a considerable amount of travelling in search of work. The cost of living remains the same, and they have these added expenses as a result of their seeking for employment. We feel that these are facts which have not been sufficiently taken into consideration, and we hope that, even though these proposals may not be accepted outright, they may be received in such a spirit that some concession will be made. In that event a great deal of the uneasiness in respect of the shortcomings of the Bill will be removed, and a concession would be accepted with wholehearted gratitude by unemployed men and women throughout the country.
§ Mr. DAVID GRENFELLI wish to support the Amendment. I do not know why the Government are choosing this occasion for a reduction of benefit to men who will qualify under this Bill in the future. This reduction of benefit from 18s. to 17s. is a most harsh and un-undeserved treatment of men who are the victims of unemployment in the country. The Government have themselves acknowledged the inadequacy of these amounts in the limited number of cases where men are married and have others dependent upon them, but I am sure that they have not given full recognition to the position of the unmarried men in the industrial districts in our urban areas, living in lodgings, with no relations and no possible means of assistance from any other source, but who have to exist on the benefits given under the Bill. I want to remind the Minister that the 18s. is much less than the unmarried worker has to pay for living and lodging; he cannot possibly get shelter and a week's food for anything less than 24s. or 25s. a week. Further, these men, with frequent long spells of unemployment, have exhausted all their savings, and all their resources have been frittered away. They are unable to get a change of clothing, and they are in a very serious plight indeed. Then the Minister comes along and says to these people, "We are going to decrease the old scale of benefit and make your plight still worse." This reduction of benefit will bring additional hardship to at least 300,000 or 400,000 people who are in the position which T have described.
In addition to the unmarried man in lodgings, there is still the worse case of the married man who does not get the additional benefit provided in this Bill for his dependants; the widower who has no housekeeper to look after his young children gets no benefit at all for a housekeeper. Those two cases are cases of especial hardship under the Bill, and I hope the Minister, before he incurs the extreme measure of displeasure which the Government are receiving from the country, will assume the responsibility of altering the scale of payments and fix them at a minimum figure of 20s. a week. We are not pressing our own ambitions or desires in this matter, for we would not assess the claims of these men at such a low figure, but we say that 20s. should 1234 be the very lowest that should be paid. I think the Bill can afford it, that within its actuarial limits that concession can be made; but, if not, the actuarial limits should be changed by changing the contributions. To assess the benefit at the miserable figure of 17s. a week is adding insult to injury, and I hope the Government will, at this late hour, the Bill having gone so far, find means of changing the 17s. to 20s.
§ Mr. H. WILLIAMSThere are, roughly speaking, 800,000 adult people at the moment in receipt of unemployment benefit. It is proposed by this Amendment to pay them an extra 3s. a week each, which means an added cost of £120,000 a week, or £6,240,000 a year. The last speaker suggested that the sum could be found within the finances of the Bill, but that if it could not, it should be obtained by increased contributions, despite the fact that presumably he has just been into the Lobby to vote for lower contributions. I think there ought to be some measure of consistency on the part of hon. Members opposite. The same hon. Member referred to what I think he said was the comparatively small proportion of married people, but that proportion is more than half. The reason why the 18s. has been cut to 17s. is that those who are married are getting 2s. a week more.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSI should say Is. The idea of the change is that the married men may have 2s. a week more than the single men. That was why I said, in mistake, 2s., and I apologise for the slip. The one change finances the other change, and since they are all based on assumptions with regard to the finances of the Bill, as long as you take those assumptions you can only bring about this change if you cut down benefits in some other direction or if you increase contributions in some other direction; and I am certain that the last speaker is not willing to do either. In reply to his remark that 20s. is the very lowest figure that you ought to fix, I would point out that, in 1924, 18s. was taken by the right hon. Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw), and that since that was fixed at 18s. in 1924 there has been a material drop in the cost of living—some 12 points, I think. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Yes, 1235 some 12 points, I think. I will verify what was the cost of living. This Bill was introduced in April, 1924. The cost-of-living index number was then 173, and in November of this year it was 169; that is four points.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) was responsible for compiling these figures, and he knows that there is a seasonable variation, and that it is at its lowest in June and, as a rule, at its highest in November; and, if you want to be fair, you have to compare corresponding periods of the year. If you do that, you will find a larger difference than I have mentioned. In any event, it is perfectly clear and acknowledged that the cost of living to-day is lower than it was at the time the 1924 Bill was introduced. That being the case, if 20s. be the very minimum now, it ought to have been 21s., to be quite logical, in 1924, but the right hon. Gentleman made it 18s. On this Amendment, as on several others, we are deciding what is the best way in which to share out the available sum of money, and I wish hon. Members opposite would consider the Bill in that spirit.
§ Mr. T. SHAWMay I ask the Minister how many men of adult age are drawing benefit?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI should have to get the exact figures.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSPerhaps I might reply?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI can give the right hon. Member the approximate figure, for it is given in the actuary's report. The total number of men of the age of 21 and over is 7,200,000. The actual percentage of unemployment among them is higher than it is among other classes. I should say, roughly speaking, that the number would be about 800,000. I have not by me the actual number drawing benefit.
§ Mr. SHAWI would like the right hon. Gentleman to get the figures, because when we are starting to make calculations of the cost we should have somewhere near an accurate estimate.
§ Miss LAWRENCEI will not pursue this very elusive hare. The Minister cannot at the moment distinguish between the persons over 18 who are drawing benefit and those over 21. In consequence, the first rash assumption of the hon. Gentleman who last spoke, namely, that every one of the 800,000 was drawing benefit, and that they were all over 21 years of age, seems to me—
§ Mr. H. WILLIAMSMay I just correct that? I based my statement on the number of claims admitted and under consideration, which was 751,000 men and 130,000 women, giving a total of 881,000. Some of those admitted were not drawing benefit, and I assumed, to be moderate, that the number would be 800,000, and that is an estimate I think no one would challenge.
§ Miss LAWRENCEThe hon. Member has said that he did not know, but assumed. He assumed the number and assumed the period during which they drew benefit. He has also assumed the figure by which he would multiply the doubtful 800,000, to get his total cost. That is a pure assumption, and an assumption which is the child of another assumption, and that is not a method on which we can carry on the business of the House of Commons.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSThey are the facts.
§ Miss LAWRENCEThey are no more facts than that the difference between 169 and 173 is 12. The reasoning of the hon. Gentleman is as transcendental as his mathematics. I want to go quite seriously into my Amendment, which I shall move formally in accordance with your ruling. What stands behind these two Amendments is the principle, so often enunciated by the Labour party, that those for whom work cannot be found have the right to maintenance. The figures put forward here do not represent full maintenance, but anybody can understand that, in dealing with the Front Bench and a Minister who is of a remorseless character, we had better moderate our demands and try to get a little. Our point is that persons who cannot find work—I do not mind how hard that test is—should receive maintenance. Nothing has been more clearly laid down by successive Ministers than this, that the benefits are not intended to provide full maintenance. I will just 1237 quote on that point the Report of the Inter-Departmental Committee on Public Assistance. They say what I think is true, and what successive Ministers have affirmed, that unemployment benefit is not designed to cover all the responsibilities of an unemployed person; but, they go on to say, it is paid
rather in mitigation of distress due to involuntary unemployment.I think I am right in saying that on one occasion during these Debates, the Minister in charge of the Bill reaffirmed the principle that unemployment benefit is not intended to be, and no one intends it to be, full maintenance.Whence then are the people to get it? The Blanesburgh Report is clear from whence they are not to get it. The Report considers
that it would be unfortunate if a state of things were created under which anyone whom the authorities of the insurance scheme declined to pay were paid at once by the guardians.Then they say this, and it is a most terrifying statement:We think both from the point of view of the parties to the Unemployment Insurance Scheme, and on general grounds, that, in so far as it deals with the able-bodied unemployed, Poor Law relief should retain the deterrent effect which now attaches, or may be applied, thereto.That is to say, the people who are not getting unemployment benefit are not to get relief from the Poor Law. So what is going to happen to these people? Hon. Members say that somebody has to pay. I have always said that in these circumstances it is the duty of the State, that is, of the taxpayer as a whole, to pay what is necessary. There are only two alternatives. Either the guardians ought to maintain them, in which case a limited number of persons, arbitrarily selected, have to foot the bill, or else the State, that is to say the nation, have to pay for it in the loss of vitality and of physical strength, and they will pay a long bill in the illnesses, which are due to imperfect nourishment and bad conditions. Who can tell how many of the deaths put down to tuberculosis or to bronchitis or to half-a-dozen of the other evils which affect the flesh of humanity, if they were properly diagnosed, would not be found to be due to hardship and bad conditions? The 1238 country has to pay, either by the lowering of the vitality of the great number of people whose only fault is that there is no work for them, or the burden has to be thrown on the localities. I find it difficult to keep within the limits of order, because the truth of the matter is that, as with this Schedule, so in the Bill as a whole, what Members are anxious to debate is not the Bill itself, but the question mark at the end of the Bill, and the effect on the health of our people of these low-scale benefits.
§ Mr. THURTLEI want to reinforce the case that has been made by the hon. Member who has just sat down. The whole basis of the unemployment insurance scheme is that the State accepts the responsibility for the unemployed who are unemployed through no fault of their own. There is an implied responsibility in the very system itself, and we ought to see to it that the amount of benefit which is given is certainly sufficient to meet the bare necessities of life. We have got to realise that society has got into such a complicated state now that the unemployed men or women cannot, if they will, help themselves. In the old days before we had got this very elaborate industrial system with all its complexities, men might have been able to scramble round and get a little food, shelter and clothing. To-day, society being as it is, if you condemn a man to unemployment, unless you find him a means whereby he may live, you condemn him to starvation. The State, by its institution of an unemployment scheme, has accepted the implication that there rests on society a duty of maintaining a man or woman who cannot find work whereby he can live, and in these circumstances, it is incumbent upon us to accept the logical consequences, and make that maintenance sufficient to satisfy the bare necessities of existence. An hon. Member who spoke below the Gangway said it was merely a question of making the best possible use we could of the available fund, as though there were no other funds available in the country for giving adequate maintenance. It is true that, cast as the scheme is now, there is only a limited amount of money available, but if we are sincerely desirous of doing the fair thing by the genuine unemployed, we would not restrict our benefit to that 1239 limited sum of money, but would realise that there are in this country immense resources which could be tapped.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANWe cannot go into that matter at this stage. We cannot go into other sources from which money could be found. That question does not arise. The only question before us now is that of the Amendment.
§ Mr. THURTLEAs I understand it, on the present financial basis of the scheme there is computed to be a surplus of £5,500,000, if the assumptions of the Minister are correct. If it be assumed that this proposal which we are putting forward for an allowance of 20s. a week instead of 17s. would involve a further expenditure of something like £6,000,000, there would only be a very slight deficit instead of a large surplus. The needs of the unemployed being as desperate as they are, it would be well worth while for the Committee to incur the possibility of there being a slight deficit rather than a large surplus, and to agree to the proposal to increase the allowance to this very modest but still inadequate amount of 20s. a week.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI think perhaps it will be right for me at this stage to give the reasons why the Government cannot accept this Amendment. As I listened to the last two speeches I was tempted to ask myself how the hon. Member for North East Ham (Miss Lawrence) and others could possibly sit behind or have any dealings with my predecessor the right hon. Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw). If there was anything in what she says, she can have nothing but the same contempt for my predecessor as for me. When he had the opportunity to increase them, why was he content with rates which were equal to, or, if compared with the cost of living then, inferior to, the present rates? He says that he had not the power to increase them. On other occasions, when it is a question of checking unruly debate, or prolix debate, he asserts that he had the power to deal with it. What I would ask my predecessor is whether he is going to support an increase in these rates at a time when he knows that he cannot get them, Whereas he was not willing himself to propose such increases when he had the chance of getting them, that is, when 1240 he was in charge of the Department and could have put the rates up? It will be interesting to see whether he himself votes for these increases.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDThat will be interesting. I hope he will answer us to this extent. He knows perfectly well that we are not going to assent to the rates which are proposed, and he knows, as other Members may not know, that if we were to do so it would so disorganise the whole finance of the scheme that it would break down. Therefore, secure in that knowledge, he is going to vote for an increase in rates which he himself did not propose when he had the chance of doing so, at the time when he was in authority. We would be glad to know why there is this change in his attitude, because it seems to me a somewhat disingenuous course of procedure. While it is quite true that to grant the increase would disorganise the whole finances of the Bill, and that it could not be carried out within the four corners of the Bill, it has also been made quite clear that if these rates were conceded they would not satisfy hon. Members opposite, so there would be no advantage from the point of view of having attained a concensus of opinion in Parliament. Apparently nothing can be done from these benches which is ever going to satisfy hon. Members opposite or to meet with their acquiescence. Much as one could wish that money would come like manna from Heaven, or that the Treasury should be like the widow's cruse, it is impossible to meet the expenses of such a change as is proposed. I would like to ask hon. Members opposite, and particularly the hon. Member for North East Ham, what is the extra expense involved in the Amendment? I do not know whether she would give me an estimate, or whether she has estimated the expenditure.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDOn the contrary, I say that if hon. Members propose a large increase in expenditure it is incumbent on them to have some idea of what the total will be.
§ Mr. SHAWIs there any one in the House excepting the Minister himself who possesses the figure of the number of adult persons who are being paid benefit?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI am not proposing the Amendment. It would have been perfectly possible for the right hon. Gentleman himself, or for any other Member on that side of the House, to put down a question when I would have given the best information I had. This is a very belated desire for information. Hon. Members are anxious enough to get information on all other points. They complain that information is not forthcoming on points on which it is practically impossible for me to get it, but now, when they could have asked for information in order to know the effect of their proposals, there is the most surprising lack of any wish to get it which I have yet seen on the other side of the House. The hon. Member for North East Ham, who is consistently scornful of any information or statistics provided by others was very trenchant at the expense of the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams). It is quite true he gave the difference in the cost-of-living figure as compared with early in 1924. The difference in the cost-of-living figure between November, 1924, and November, 1927, is 11 points, that is, a difference which at this moment makes the 17s. in the Bill a better sum to receive than the 18s. under the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDThere is another point which I would ask Members of the Committee to notice. In the first place, by the Amendments which the Opposition have proposed it is interesting to note that they have recognised the principle of differential rates for young men and young women between 18 and 21 years. They have recognised the difference in principle, and I hope that note will be taken of that, in case the question comes up in the future. On the other hand, it is also worth noting how much value is to be placed on the professions which we heard not a quarter of an hour ago from the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Greenwood) as to the relief which he proposes to give to industry where it is now suffering from 1242 the burden of the rates. The effect of what is now proposed from the opposite side of the Committee is to offset any possible effect of the decrease in the contributions which they propose by the extra burden thrown on the Exchequer by these increased rates of benefit, by the reduction in the waiting period, and by extending the bridge to 12 months. Whatever the saving on the rates, there is going to be an addition to the burden through an increase of taxation. Whatever might be said as to the desirability of the proposed increases if this country were rich enough to give them, at any rate do not let it be understood any longer that it is care for the burdens of industry and a wish to decrease those burdens which has been animating hon. Members opposite.
§ Mr. SHAWI have asked one of my hon. Friends to look up a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT SO that I can read to the Minister the passage, with which he probably is very familiar, but which some other Members present probably know nothing about, in which I stated most precisely in 1924 that the Bill then did not represent all that I desired, but that it represented all that I thought I could get through the House. The Minister knows that perfectly well, and so do many of his supporters. The Minister also knows just as well that the position we were in at that time was, that we had supporting us, roughly speaking, one Member out of every three in the House, whereas the Minister now has behind him two Members out of every three. That is the difference between us, and it is a very substantial difference. He also knows perfectly well that the support which we had from the Liberal party was a sup port which was at times rather uncertain—
§ Mr. E. BROWNBut then you had the Tories. You had their support for the cruisers.
§ Mr. SHAW—so uncertain was it that it was by a little Motion that the operation of my Bill was limited to a certain period because some of the proposals in it were regarded, I suppose, as revolutionary. The Minister knows all these things perfectly well, and it is little less than misleading the Committee to say that the terms in my Bill were similar to 1243 the terms in this when he knows the conditions were not the same, and when he knows, I repeat again, that I told the House bluntly that what I was proposing did not represent my desires but only represented all that I thought I could get through the House. In one of the Debates not long ago the Parliamentary Secretary, when challenged about something, admitted that I had stated in Committee that I dared not accept a certain Amendment because I was afraid if I did so I should not be able to get my Bill through. These things ought to be known and ought to be acknowledged. I do not mind Parliamentary fights, I do not mind hitting—no one was hit harder than I was when I stood at that Box—and when the hitting is clean I can stand it, but I like the hitting to be clean, and the Minister knows perfectly well that the circumstances were not the same then and that to represent them as being the same is to mislead the Committee. With regard to the question of our seeking information, it is not our business to seek information; it is the Minister's business to give it.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDIs it not the hon. Member's business to seek information on the proposals which he himself, or his friends, make to the House? It is a different thing to ask for information about what I suggest; but when he or his friends are going to submit new proposals to the House, to say that it is not their business to ask for the information which will enable them to realise the effect of those proposals seems to me to show a stupendous lack of responsibility.
§ Mr. SHAWThere, again, the Minister is making a mistake. We did not ask for information regarding our proposals. We asked for information regarding a statement made by one of his supporters based on the assumption that 800,000 people are drawing weekly benefit. We ask for the actual figure, and it is the business of the Minister to give it.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI say at once that I will get those figures; if they are Departmentally available, the right hon. Gentleman shall have them with the greatest of pleasure. But that does not detract from the force of what I have 1244 said about the action of hon. Members opposite. Here are proposals for new scales of benefit—
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSOn a point of Order. Is the right hon. Gentleman in order in debating subsequent Amendments while the present Amendment is under discussion?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI think the right hon. Gentleman is addressing himself to the Amendment which is now before the Committee.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSFurther to that point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman persistently makes reference to Amendments on the Paper subsequent to this one. The right hon. Gentleman himself has a similar Amendment dealing with young men and young women. If he has the figures available, he ought to give them to the Committee without the Committee having to ask for them.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI will give anyone the estimated results if we have them. My point is that if hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite make proposals to this Committee, they ought to ask for the information, if they want it, to show the effect of the proposals they make. I cannot allow the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston to burke that point.
§ Mr. SHAWI do not wish to burke any point. If the right hon. Gentleman had made a statement that a certain proposal would wreck the Bill without giving any grounds for that statement, I am sure he would have been ashamed of himself. It is the business of a responsible Minister to supply reasonable information, and it is his duty to supply any information which is required in regard to an Amendment.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI will give the information asked for at once. The effect of this Amendment will be to add another £7,000,000 per annum to the cost. If any hon. Member had put to me a question on that point, I should have given the figure before.
§ Miss LAWRENCEIs that figure arrived at upon a 6 per cent. or an 8 per cent. basis?
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDIt is on the basis of 9 per cent. unemployment.
§ Mr. SHAWAt last we have got the information. Having heard what the estimate is, I would like to point out that there is something much more important than the £7,000,000, and it is the question whether people are now living upon insufficient food, whether they are insufficiently clad and deteriorating in consequence. I think more about one workman who has been cut short of the absolute necessities of life than the troubles of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in finding another £7,000,000. I think far more about those who have not a sufficiency of the ordinary necessities of life than I do about the troubles of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The point is whether £1 per week is sufficient to maintain a grown up person. We all know the amount that £1 will purchase. If we purchase one pound's worth of foodstuffs and put them on the table we should have a very much better estimate of what this means than we are apt to gather from the mere mention of the figures. What will £1 per week do? Can anyone say that a man can live and clothe himself, keep a clean bed, and live even on the plainest of food for £1 per week? I am not troubling about the £7,000,000, but I am concerned about these men having decent food and being provided with the necessities of life. If the Labour party had the majority which the Government now possess, it is quite certain that the amount would not be 18s., not if I were the Minister of Labour.
The Minister of Labour has asked us about the contributions and he stated that he could not understand how I could support this Amendment. May I tell him that I should feel quite ashamed of myself if I did not support this proposal. If I failed to support it I could not look my fellow workmen in the face because I know how they have suffered. How could I face them if I had to admit that when there was a proposal to make the amount £1 per week I did not vote for it on account of financial considerations? Let the Chancellor of the Exchequer look after himself. Already the Chancellor has put his paw on every fund he could find. We believe that £1 per week is little enough. We believe that all those who vote against this proposal have less knowledge of humanity than they ought to have. May I tell the Minister of 1246 Labour another thing? If I am asked "Am I my brother's keeper?" my answer is, "Yes."
§ Mr. MARCHThe Minister of Labour has told us that insurance under this Bill was going to be on the lines of a fire insurance. What is now proposed is a long way from the lines of fire insurance. I always understood that if you want to insure against fire for £100 you pay the same premium as everybody else; but under this Bill you have gone far away from any principle of fire insurance or friendly society insurance. I was greatly surprised when I heard the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams) speaking about young people not getting the same benefits as the others. In the friendly society movement young men and women pay a lower contribution than those who join at a later age, and yet they get the same benefits. Under this Bill you are charging the young people the same as the old people and yet you bring down their scale of benefits.
May I point out that that is against the principle of fire insurance about which the Minister of Labour was so persistent. Under this Bill you are charging the young men of 21 years of age and upwards, whether married or single, the same contribution, and at the same time you are proposing to reduce their benefit. Why are you doing this? The only reason I can assign is that you are under the impression that if young men and women are unemployed and receive a low rate of benefit then you will be able to force them more easily into positions where they will get lower wages, and you will cut the older men out altogether. The idea seems to be that if you get these young men out of employment at 21 or 22 years of age you will be able to force them more easily into the Army, Navy or the Air Force. Under this Measure you do not pay these men benefits proportionate to their contributions, and it is simply robbery and nothing else.
§ Mr. WALLHEADThe indignation of the Minister of Labour and those behind him has been directed against the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) in regard to the comparison which has been made between the present Bill and the one introduced in 1924. This indignation seems to me to be an indication of the weakness of the case put forward by 1247 the Minister of Labour and it is really no analogy at all, because the conditions are absolutely reversed. In 1924 the position of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston was entirely different from the position now held by the Minister of Labour. I think I know sufficient of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston to be able to state that had the position been reversed, and had we at that time had a majority of 200 behind us, my right hon. Friend the Member for Preston would not have brought in such a Bill as he did in 1924. If he had done so, I am sure he would have met with a great deal of opposition from the members of his own party.
On these benches we have often been accused of advocating the getting of something for nothing. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Nobody sitting on the Labour Benches believes that something can be got for nothing. Very early in these debates the Labour party made a demand for work or maintenance and we put the demand for work first. We claimed that if society, in its organisation, was of such a character as to deny a man the means of obtaining a livelihood, society ought to make up the deficiency and provide that man with maintenance. We insisted upon work as the initial step. I wish I could see a state of society established under which it would be impossible for anyone to get a living without working for it.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThat is an entirely different question from the one we are discussing.
§ 6.0 p.m.
§ Mr. WALLHEADI was deflected from my point by the diffuse remarks made by other speakers. I think the proposal in the Schedule which we are discussing is a disgustingly mean one. If I remember rightly, the present Prime Minister made a statement in the early part of this Parliament that, if the Conservative party did not deal with the question of unemployment in a radical way, the Conservative party would be false to its trust. I will not commit myself to the exact words, but that was the tenour of his remarks. I want to say that the Conservative party has been false to its trust; it has not dealt with unemploy- 1248 ment at all. The question gets worse and worse as the weeks go by, and, the worse it gets, the more people are condemned to unemployment, and the less chance there is of their getting adequate employment, the worse the proposals of the Government become. These proposals are the proposals of a. Government dealing with an alien people. They are punitive; they are designed for the purpose of punishing men who suffer through no fault of their own, who find themselves utterly unable to obtain work in any circumstances whatever. I stand here speaking for thousands of people in my Division, who have been unable for the past three years to obtain work. Everyone knows that they have been unable to obtain work, but their suffering is to be continued still further, and their resources are to be still further depleted, under this wretched contemptible Bill brought in by a Government which represents all the wealth and splendour and riches of this Empire. The benches opposite represent, in the main, the magnificence of this country, and it is a splendidly magnificent country so far as a few are concerned. This Bill bears out exactly the saying of a witty Frenchman some years ago, that England was the Paradise of the rich, the Hell of the poor, and the Purgatory of the wise. That is perfectly true; it has become a worse hell as the days have gone by—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThat is certainly not in order on this Amendment.
§ Mr. WALLHEADThis Amendment is designed to bring the allowance to unfortunate people who are unemployed more in accordance with the resources of the country—resources that we believe to exist. If those resources are not adequately used to their best advantage, it is the fault of the Government of the country. The Government have done nothing whatever to help these people to improve their condition. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has robbed the Road Fund of £19,000,000—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThat seems to be a different scheme from the one in the Schedule.
§ Mr. WALLHEADIf that money had been used for providing work, these contributions might have been on a different scale, there would have been less need 1249 for so great a degree of poverty as now prevails, the number of unemployed would not have been so great, the demand on the State would not have been so great, and the necessity for taxes would not have been so great. The whole thing is contemptibly mean, and I sincerely hope that this Amendment will be carried.
§ Mr. WOMERSLEYI would not have intervened in this Debate but for the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw). There is no denying the fact that, whether the amount be 17s. or £1, 15s. or 18s., it is not sufficient to maintain any person in the degree of comfort that we should like to see. I want to inform the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston that his party has no monopoly of sympathy for the people who happen to be unemployed, and I also want to point out to him that the only way to deal with this question, and provide men and women with proper means of subsistence, is to find them a job. During the period when the right hon. Gentleman occupied the position of Minister of Labour, I was not a Member of the House of Commons, but I was a member of an unemployment committee, in a certain part of the country, where we struggled hard to get work for the people in the district. Had we any great amount of sympathy from the right hon. Gentleman's Department? Not a bit of it. Did we get anything at all in the way of reasonable help? Not a bit of it. Whatever the right hon. Gentleman may have thought as regards the amount he could include in his Unemployment Insurance Bill, there were certain other schemes brought to him for providing work and employment which he turned down where he could have done otherwise, whether he had a majority behind him or not. I am not going to allow it to pass when he takes the credit for having done a great deal for the unemployed people of this country. There is no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman was the greatest asset to my party at the last General Election. One had only to quote him to get the working classes to realise that their position was not safe in the hands of the Labour party. [HON. MEMBERS: "Mis-quote!"] There is no need to mis-quote; you can take it from the OFFICIAL REPORT. I would say, in conclusion, that the only real solution of this trouble is to get schemes into operation which will provide work.
§ Mr. E. BROWNI desire to say two things. In the first place, I desire to say that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) was rather unkind to the party I represent about this Bill, and he was on very dangerous ground. It is perfectly true that some members of his party, when they were in office, did find our support rather uncertain—for instance, the First Lord, of the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for War; but, if I recollect aright, we only came into conflict with him once, and he ought to have been very careful before he raised the point, because that was on a proposal by two back-bench members of the Liberal party, who then sat for East and West Middlesbrough respectively. They moved an Amendment, not to increase the benefit to the whole of the contributors by 3s. a week, but to increase the benefit in respect of children by 1s. a week. The right hon. Gentleman turned that proposal down, and the uncertain support he received was due, not merely to those on the Liberal benches, but to some of his own backbench members who voted for the Liberal Amendment and against his proposal to turn it down. Indeed, he should have thrown a bouquet to the Minister of Labour, because, when he wanted to defend his own proposal not to give children an extra shilling, it was to those on the benches opposite, who were then sitting on this side, to whom he looked for his majority, together with those of his own supporters who voted with the Conservatives in order to prevent that extra shilling being given. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston had any cause to complain about the support of the Liberal party when he was Minister of Labour except on that one occasion. There was another occasion, when the right hon. Gentleman, one Thursday and Friday, was greatly indebted to the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) for extracting him from a very difficult tangle.
Both the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams) and the Minister referred to the cost of living. I believe that the time has come when we ought to revise the way in which the cost of living index is compiled. It does not weigh with me, when we are considering benefits, wages, or any other sums given to 1251 working people, to hear the cost of living index quoted. I am aware that, for the purposes of this Amendment and Debate, comparisons between 1924 and 1927 are relevant, but the basis on which the index is compiled is not a scientific basis; it does not really meet the case of 1927. It was a rough and ready rule when it was first introduced for certain purposes before the War, but it ought not to remain the permanent basis for calculating the incomes of working people for the purpose of unemployment insurance or for any other purpose. Having said this, I hope I have restored amity in the Committee, and thrown a little light upon the dark and devious days of 1923–24.
§ Mr. A. GREENWOODThe remarks of the two hon. Members who have just addressed the Committee appear to have been designed to divert attention from the Bill now under discussion. This is a late hour for a post-mortem examination of the Government of 1924—
§ Mr. E. BROWNYour Minister raised it.
§ Mr. GREENWOODOur case for increased benefits is stronger because of the action of the Government in deliberately discouraging local authorities from providing schemes of work. The hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley) is speaking without the book. This Government—and this makes their responsibility in regard to benefit even greater than it was—have deliberately torpedoed the St. Davids Committee; they have quite deliberately established conditions which make it practically impossible for any local authority to carry out schemes of work for the relief of unemployment. The test is this—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANWe really must not go so far as that on this Amendment.
§ Mr. GREENWOODI should be the last person in the world to go outside your ruling, but I was trying to deal with the point raised by the hon. Member for Grimsby. I will content myself with saying that the amount of work provided by local authorities in 1924 was £24,000,000 worth, as against £3,000,000 worth this year; and that very fact—
§ Mr. WOMERSLEYIs the hon. Gentleman speaking of schemes which were approved by the late Minister of Labour, or schemes which were in operation at the time and which had been approved by his predecessor?
§ Mr. GREENWOODThere would be both, but I am giving the year's figures for 1924 and for the year ending the 31st March, 1927. No explanation can get away from the fact that the figure in 1924 was eight times as much as it is at the present time. Because of this shrinkage in the provision of work, and the long period during which unemployment has prevailed, the need for a revision of benefit upwards is stronger than ever it has been before. My right hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) made it quite clear when he was proposing 18s., with 5s. for a wife and 2s. for a child, that that was not as much as he would have liked to give, and it was when he was dealing with this very question that he made the statement to which he has referred this afternoon. We are not asking for anything that we regard as impracticable or impossible. I would like to refer to the evidence, so often quoted against us, given by my hon. Friend the Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) and myself before the Blanesburgh Committee, where we recognised that we were not likely to get adequate rates of benefit instituted, and stated that, without prejudice to our scheme for such adequate benefits, we suggested that there should be an immediate increase in the present rates, proposing the rates that are the subject of the Amendment now before the Committee. We did not propose those as adequate rates; we do not believe that even 20s. is adequate, and that is the considered view of the Labour movement in this country. We put forward 20s. just as we put forward the reduced contributions, as a half-way house, as something that we thought we might get. The suggested figure of 20s., having regard to the obligations that fall upon the unemployed man, and to the long period of bad trade that there has been, which has exhausted practically every trade union's out-of-work benefit fund, which has exhausted the bulk of the savings of these people—this rate of benefit is modest and not extravagant, and I should have thought that, if the Committee were left entirely free to express 1253 its opinion as to the desirability of that scale of benefit, we should have a majority when the matter was taken to a Division.
§ Question put, "That '17s. 0d.' stand part of the Schedule."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 251; Noes, 140.
1255| Division No. 442.] | AYES. | [6.15 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Edmondson, Major A. J. | McLean. Major A. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Ellis, R. G. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm |
| Albery, Irving James | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Everard, W. Lindsay | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Apsley, Lord | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Fermoy, Lord | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Fielden, E. B. | Meller. R. J. |
| Asstor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Frece, Sir Walter de | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Waldan) |
| Bainlel, Losrd | Fremantle, Lieut. Colonel Francis E. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Ganzoni, Sir John | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Gates, Percy | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Murchison, Sir Kenneth |
| Bennett, A. J. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish | Goff, Sir Park | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Berry, Sir George | Grace, John | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Bethel, A. | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Grant, Sir J. A. | Oakley, T. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w,E) | Penny, Frederick George |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Perring, Sir William George |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Hanbury, C. | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Preston, William |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Harland, A. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Radford, E. A. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) | Harrison, G. J. C. | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen-H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Ramsden, E. |
| Buchan, John | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Haslam, Henry C. | Remnant, Sir James |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Hawke, John Anthony | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Burman, J. B. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lane, Stretford) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hills, Major John Waller | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Rye, F. G. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Salmon, Major I. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) | Holt, Capt. H. P. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Chapman. Sir S. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Hudson, Capt. A. U.M. (Hackney,N.) | Sandon, Lord |
| Christie, J. A. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Churchman. Sir Arthur C. | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis | Savery, S. S. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Huntingfield, Lord | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Clayton, G. C. | Hurst, Gerald B. | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Iveagh, Countess of | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon Cuthbert | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Jephcott, A. R. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Cope, Major William | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd' & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Knox, Sir Alfred | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lamb, J. O. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovll) | Loder, J. de V. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Luce. Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Lumley, L. R. | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Lynn, Sir Robert J. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Thomson, F. c. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Drewe, C | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell |
| Tinne, J. A. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Watts, Dr. T. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Wayland, Sir William A. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich W.) |
| Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough | Wells, S. R. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Vaughsn-Morgan, Col. K. P. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Waddington, R. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) | |
| Wallace, Captain D. E. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) | Captain Margesson and Captain |
| Warrender, Sir Victor | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George | Bowyer. |
| Watson, Sir F. (Purfsev and Otley) | Womersley, W. J. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Groves, T. | Scurr, John |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Sexton, James |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Baker, Walter | Hardie, George D. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Harris, Percy A. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Barnes, A. | Hayday, Arthur | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Barr, J | Hayes, John Henry | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Batey, Joseph | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Smith, H. B. Lees-(Keighley) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hirst, G. H. | Snell, Harry |
| Broad, F. A. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bromfield, William | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Stamford, T. W. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Buchanan, G. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Sullivan, J. |
| Cape, Thomas | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbre. W.) |
| Clowes. S. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kirkwood, D. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lansbury, George | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Compton, Joseph | Lawrence, Susan | Townend, A. E. |
| Connolly, M. | Lawson, John James | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Cove, W. G. | Lindley, F. W. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Livingstone, A. M. | Viant, S. P. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lowth, T. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Lunn, William | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Day, Colonel Harry | MacDonald, Rt Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dennison, R. | Mackinder, W. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Duckworth, John | March, S. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Dunnico, H. | Montague, Frederick | Welsh. J. C. |
| Edge, Sir William | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Westwood, J. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Murnin, H. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Naylor, T. E. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| England, Colonel A. | Oliver, George Harold | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Palin, John Henry | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Paling, W. | Williams, David (Swansea. East) |
| Forrest, W. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Potts, John S. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Atterclifle) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Gillett, George M. | Riley, Ben | Windsor, Walter |
| Gosling, Harry | Ritson, J. | Wright, W. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) | |
| Greenall, T. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Rose, Frarfk H. | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Whiteley. |
§ Miss LAWRENCEI beg to move, in page 13, line 7, to leave out "15s. 0d.," and to insert instead thereof "18s. 0d."
§ Question put, "That '15s. 0d.' stand part of the Schedule."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 255; Noes, 141.
1259| Division No. 443.] | AYES. | [6.25 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T | Balnlel, Lord | Blundell, F. N. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Boothby, R. J. G. |
| Albery, Irving James | Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Beamish Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Briggs, J. Harold |
| Apsley, Lord | Bennett, A. J. | Brittain, Sir Harry |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish | Brocklebank, C. E. R. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Berry, Sir George | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Bethel, A. | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Betterton, Henry B. | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Harrison, G. J. C. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Buchan, John | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Radford, E. A. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Raine, Sir Walter |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Haslam, Henry C. | Ramsden, E. |
| Burman, J. B. | Hawke, John Anthony | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Remnant, Sir James |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Campbell, E. T. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hills, Major John Waller | Robinson, Sir T. (Lane, Stretford) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hohier, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Rye, F. G. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Holt, Captain H. P. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Charterls, Brigadier-General J. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Christie, J. A. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sandon, Lord |
| Clayton, G. C. | Huntingfield, Lord | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hurst, Gerald B. | Savery, S. S. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Iveagh, Countess of | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew. W) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Cope, Major William | Jephcott, A. R. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Skelton, A. N. |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Knox, Sir Alfred | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lamb, J. Q. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Streatfeild, Captain S. R, |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Loder, J. de V. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Drewe C | Lumley, L. R. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Ellis, R. G. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Erskine Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | McLean, Major A. | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Macmillan, Captain H. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Macquisten, F. A. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Fermoy Lord | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Fielden' E B. | Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Forestler-Walker, Sir L. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Foxcroft Captain C T. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Frece. Sir Walter de | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Waddington, R. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Meller, R. J. | Walace. Captain p. E |
| Galbraith J F W. | Meyer. Sir Frank | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Ganzoni Sir John | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Gates Percy | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Watson, sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Gibbs, Col Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Watts, Dr T |
| Goff, Sir Park | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Cower Sir Robert | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Wells, S. R. |
| Grave John | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Nuttall, Ellis | Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w. E) | Oakley, T. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Oman. Sir Charles William C. | Wood, B. C. (Somerset Bridgwater |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Wood, E (Chest r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Penny, Frederick George | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Perring, Sir William George | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Hanbury, C. | Power, Sir John Cecil | |
| Harland, A. | Pownall, Sir Assheton | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.- |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Preston, William | Captain Margesson and Captain |
| Bowyer. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Broad, F. A. |
| Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Barnes, A. | Bondfield, Margaret |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Barr, J. | Brown, Ernest (Leith) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Batey, Joseph | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Bondfield, Margaret | Buchanan, G. |
| Baker, Walter | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Cape, Thomas |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hirst, G. H. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Clowes. S. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield). | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Compton, Joseph | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Connolly, M. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Snell, Harry |
| Cove, W. G. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Kennedy, T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Kirkwood, D. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Lansbury, George | Sullivan, J. |
| Dennison, R. | Lawrence, Susan | Sutton, J. E. |
| Duckworth, John | Lawson, John James | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.) |
| Duncan, C. | Lindley, F. W. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Dunnico, H. | Livingstone, A. M. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Edge, Sir William | Lowth, T. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lunn, William | Townend, A. E. |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| England, Colonel A. | Mackinder, W. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | March, S. | Viant, S. P. |
| Fenby, T. D. | Montague, Frederick | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Forrest, W. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Gardner, J. P. | Murnin, H. | Watson, W. M (Dunfermline) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Naylor, T. E. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Webb. Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Gillett, George M. | Palin, John Henry | Welsh, J. C. |
| Gosling, Harry | Paling, W. | Westwood, J. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Greenall, T. | Potts, John S. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Rees, Sir Beddot | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Riley, Ben | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Ritson, J. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Groves, T. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvli) | Rose, Frank H. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Windsor, Walter |
| Hardie, George D. | Scrymgeour, E. | Wright, W. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Scurr, John | |
| Hayday, Arthur | Sexton, James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hayes, John Henry | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. |
| Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Whiteley. |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANIn regard to the discusion on the next Amendment standing in the name of the Government we must at the same time have a discussion on the four Amendments to it. There are four Amendments to the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, and I propose to have a single discussion on them all.
§ Mr. T. SHAWI suppose that, after taking a general discussion, there will be the formality of voting on the several Amendments if we go to a Division.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANIf the Committee wishes to go to a Division on them they will be at liberty to do so. The various Amendments put down to the Government's Amendment I shall take separately, but the discussion should be a single discussion.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI beg to move, in page 13, line 7, at the end, to insert the words:
§ "2. Persons who have attained the age of 20 years but are under the age of 21 years:
| s. | d. | |
| Young men | 14 | 0 |
| Young women | 12 | 0 |
§ 3. Persons who have attained the age of 19 years but are under the age of 20 years:
| s. | d. | |
| Young men | 12 | 0 |
| Young women | 10 | 0 |
§ In moving this Amendment, if it be your ruling, Captain FitzRoy, and because it forms part of the same general subject, I shall deal with the Amendment which stands in my name lower down the Paper—in page 13, line 9, to leave out "21" and to insert instead thereof "19."
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI think that if it be the wish of the right hon. Gentleman, it will be desirable for the Committee to discuss these Amendments together.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI imagine that Members of the Committee would wish, as the second Amendment standing in my name is part of the same scheme and with this Amendment forms part of one graded system, that the discussion on the whole subject should take place now. These rates are the rates which I indicated at an earlier stage in our proceedings on the Bill that I would 1261 move when we came to the Schedule. The original rates inserted in the Bill were 8s. for young women and 10s. for young men. They were the rates which were recommended by the Blanesburgh Committee, and I wished to follow the findings of the Committee as exactly as I could. At the Second Reading I stated quite frankly that I was unable to do so in the matter of finance. In the other Clauses of the Bill I followed their recommendations, and the provisions originally inserted in the Bill followed their unanimous findings. I had some misgivings as to the rates, and when I found that it was the general feeling of the House that there should be some alteration, I indicated that I would move the rates contained in the Amendments which stand in my name. Under these two Amendments the rates for young men will increase between 18 and 21 from 10s. to 12s. at age 19, and from 12s. to 14s. at age 20. Similarly the rates for young women will increase from 8s. to 10s. and from 10s. to 12s. On arriving at the age of 21 they will get the adult rates.
That there should be a differentiation for the ages between 18 and 20 was not only the finding of the Committee but was also, as has been expounded more than once, in accordance with the preponderating opinion of those best qualified to judge throughout the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who are they?"] The principle of it has been acknowledged by the Opposition in the Amendments they have put down on the Paper. As far as these rates are concerned, they are rates that are intermediate between the rates for boys and girls and the adult rates for men and women. I have never pretended, and I do not pretend now, that they, any more than the adult rates, are rates of full maintenance. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite will have ample opportunity of speaking later if they wish to avail themselves of it.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODYou have guillotined us!
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDI have never pretended that the rates which are proposed are rates for full maintenance whether in the case of young men and young women from 18 to 21 or in the case of adult men and adult women. Unemployment benefit rates under a State 1262 scheme as under trade union schemes have always been intended as a help, and, in the case of the State scheme, a very material help indeed, for people to tide over a period of unemployment. That is all that at any time is claimed for it. These rates which I now propose for young men and young women are intermediate, as I have said, between adult rates and rates for juveniles. The expense of them comes nearly to £450,000 a year in addition to the original estimate of the scheme, and they will diminish the very narow margin of income over expenditure to that extent. For young men the additional cost is estimated at about £300,000 a year, and for young women at a little over £140,000 a year. I think they are better balanced as intermediate rates than those originally in the Bill, and representing, as they do, the preponderating opinion of those who have had most to do with the subject, I commend them to the Committee.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 3, to leave out "14s. 0d." and to insert instead thereof "16s. 0d."
I think the justice of this Amendment will be understood by every Member of the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman told the Committee that although he desired to follow the lines of the Committee's Report he felt, in the earlier stages, that he could not follow them as far as finance was concerned, and because he failed to satisfy himself that the figures recommended by the Committee were correct, he has seen fit to move the Amendment which is now before this Committee. But having seen fit to increase the figures we still think that the right hon. Gentleman is failing lamentably as far as young men and young women are concerned with the figures he is offering to them. He tells us, of course, that unemployment insurance benefits are not intended to be full maintenance for any person who is obliged to receive benefit through being thrown out of work. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman from what other source does he expect that unemployed people are going to receive the difference between what would be full maintnance and the figures that he offers in this Amendment? Obviously, there must be a source from which the supplementary sums should be forthcoming, and unless the right hon. 1263 Gentleman can tell us exactly what he thinks that second source is, I do not see how we can support him in his figures.
There are other reasons, I think, why the Committee ought to tell the right hon. Gentleman, once and for all, that having come down to the very last penny-piece, here, at least, is one instance where the Committee cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Fourteen shillings, says the right hon. Gentleman, for a person 20 years of age, married or single, family obligations or no family obligations, is the maximum sum that we are going to give to him in case he should be thrown out of work through no fault of his own. I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman has questioned his own good lady as to what would have been the position if they, in their juvenile days, had contracted an early marriage—and there are no laws to prevent early marriages taking place in this country—and unemployment fell to his lot, and he was told by a Government that the only sums of money that they would be permitted to receive would be 14s. per week. I wonder what the right hon. Gentleman would think if, on a future occasion, the same Government that gave him 14s. a week to maintain himself and his wife and his family, should there be any family, called upon him to join the forces for the purpose of fighting for his King and country and all that that implied.
I suggest that the young person who to-day is called upon to accept this miserable sum of money and is the victim of a disordered and obsolete economic system, is going to tell the State on some future occasion that in his hour of distress it failed to hold out a helping hand, and that, as far as he is concerned, he has as much love for his country, of which he does not own a single square yard, as the Minister of Labour had for him when he was conducting his Unemployment Insurance Bill through the House of Commons. In 1927, apparently, the Conservative Government are to go down to history as the Birth Control Government as a result of their treatment of young persons under this Bill. The proposal of the Minister is to allow 14s. a week for a man over 20 years of age. The figures are almost too miserable and contemptible to be considered.
1264 An argument has been used frequently during these Debates that if we move an Amendment from these benches we shall upset the whole financial basis of the scheme, and therefore it cannot be entertained. In this particular instance, the extra cost of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment will be £440,000, as compared with the original finance of the Bill. On that basis, the Amendment which I am moving cannot cost much more than £200,000 per year, leaving still a balance of £400,000 per annum over the estimated expenditure. It seems to me that the usual argument that the Fund cannot provide all that we are asking for cannot be used on this occasion. The Minister has now moved an Amendment dealing with young persons between the ages of 18 and 21, and I should like him to give us the estimated number of young persons who are likely to be affected by his Amendment. A short time ago, during the discussion on another Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman chided hon. Members on these benches because they had failed in days gone by to seek information as to the number of young persons who were likely to be out of work at a given period. On what does he base the figures which he has given in connection with his Amendment? How many young persons between the ages of 18 and 21 does he estimate will be out of work in any given period? He must have some estimate on which he has based his figure of £440,000 as the increase in the expenditure on the acceptance of his Amendment. Has he based his figures upon the present 9 per cent. of unemployment or on the estimated 6 per cent. figure which he has used many times during the Committee discussions on this Bill?
In any case, I think a young person between the ages of 18 and 21 who is thrown out of work through no fault of his own, and who must satisfy the insurance officer that he is a legitimate applicant before he can receive full employment benefit, is at least entitled to expect more than the miserable sum of 14s. a week. It is true that in my Amendment we are not asking as much as we think a young man thrown out of work is entitled to, but an extra 2s. to a person who has been deprived of his employment is a legacy in these days of destitution in working class areas. I 1265 think the right hon. Gentleman might well have conceived a series of Amendments so as to minimise the deadly effect of his proposal upon the mentality and morality of young persons in this country. From that point of view, I think that both young men and young women are entitled to more consideration than they have received so far. I hope that hon. Members sitting in all parts of the House will not claim credit for what they did in 1924, or for what they might do in 1929, but that they will justify themselves on this occasion, in 1927, by supporting the Amendment which I am submitting as against the Amendment submitted by the Minister of Labour.
§ Mr. GRIFFITHSI beg to support the Amendment. I have sat under several Ministers of Labour and I believe the present Minister of Labour is the worst who has ever sat on the Government bench. I was in the House when Dr. Macnamara, the Liberal Minister of Labour, reduced the benefit from £1 to 15s. a week. I remember Dr. Macnamara introducing the gap period, and the six days' waiting period, and I remember the Labour party walking out of the House because he refused to give a 1s. contribution towards the maintenance of a child. I have also seen the ex-Minister for Labour, the right hon. Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) moving to do away with the gap, increasing the benefit, giving 2s. extra contribution in respect of children, and also reducing the waiting period from six days to three days. We are now confronted with a proposal under which the Minister of Labour expects a young man or young woman to live on 14s. and 12s. a week respectively. I have had some experience in London and I will quote an instance. A relative of mine was in the Civil Service. She was a temporary clerk. Her father was an old civil servant, but during the War he died and the mother also died, the girl was left an orphan and I had to look after her interests. She was thrown out of employment as a temporary clerk in the Treasury. She paid 25s. a week for her board, and she could not have got it so cheaply had she not been living with a supporter of one of the hon. Members for Islington. When she was thrown out of employment, her landlord, who had a big heart and broad mind, allowed her to get into arrears. She could not afford to pay 1266 the 25s. a week, with the result that in 18 months she got into arrears to the extent of between £30 and £40.
How does the Minister expect that a respectable girl, the daughter of a civil servant, can live in London on 12s. a week? I tell him quite frankly that I cannot keep my daughter on 12s. a week, and I am sure he cannot keep his daughter on 12s. a week, nor could any hon. Member opposite keep a daughter on 12s. a week. I do not see how the Minister can ask girls, the daughters of the working class, who are quite as respectable as the daughters of hon. Members opposite—we love our daughters quite as well as you love your daughters—to live in London or any of the large cities on 12s. a week. The thing is impossible. I know the reputation of the Minister quite well, and I do not believe that in his own heart he thinks that the 12s. is sufficient. I have read his history and how he went into the Poor Law institutions and slept amongst poor people at night. Consequently, he knows that it is impossible for these girls and young men to live on 12s. and 14s. per week respectively. A question was put to the Minister of Health the other day by the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Bromley), where they have a large number of steel workers who are out of work. The Minister was asked how much it cost to maintain one of these men in a Poor Law institution, and he said it cost 24s. a week. In a Poor Law institution you are prepared to pay 24s. a week for the maintenance of a man, but for a young man out of work you are only prepared to pay 14s. a week, and for a young woman out of work, 12s. a week. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take a broad view and help these respectable young men and young women to keep their virtue. Such a proposal as the one he has made is simply driving them down to degradation. I appeal to him to think over this matter and see if he cannot accept the Amendment to his Amendment.
§ Miss LAWRENCEI wish to draw special attention to the case of the young women. There are two Amendments on the Order Paper proposing an increase of the amount allowed in the Minister's Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman heaped reproaches upon me recently because, in connection with an Amend- 1267 ment which I brought forward, I did not produce an estimate. I took no trouble whatever to prepare an estimate, on the grounds put forward by the Government Actuary, who stated that no materials exist, or have existed during any time since 1911, on which to frame an accurate estimate. In these circumstances, to play with an estimate is really to give a sort of ornamental nourish to your speech that is of no real use. The proper thing to do in circumstances of such uncertainty is that you should fix the contribution to be made from industry, and the Slate should make up the deficit as and when it occurs until we have gained the experience on which we can frame an accurate estimate.
With respect to the women, I would point out that this proposal concerns more women proportionately than men, and hits them harder, for two reasons; first of all, the obvious one that the cut is a good deal greater in respect of women and, secondly, that of persons between the ages of 18 and 21 in industry the proportion of women is very much greater than that of men. I cannot give the figures for the insured persons, because they are not published, but if as an illustration we take the number of occupied persons, the women are in the proportion of 5 to 12. There are much fewer women than men, but if you look at the age groups, 18 to 19 and 20 to 24, you find that the women in those age groups outnumber the men in the same age groups. There are more women employed than men of the age of 18 to 19, and more women employed than men in the ages 20 to 24. That is taken on the whole. I am not able to distinguish the insured persons.
§ Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDThey are in the Actuary's Report.
§ 7.0 p.m.
§ Miss LAWRENCEYes, I find they are there. My point is, and the Minister of Labour as an expert will not disagree with me, that the average age of women in industry is much less than that of the men, and that the great bulk of the women employed are very much younger than the men in the corresponding age groups. Through the whole incidence of insurance, you find that the ages at which you desire to obtain benefit is younger for women than for men. Up to the age 1268 of 25 the numbers of women employed is much greater than the numbers of men, but it is the reverse in the next age group, and it does not get steady again until somewhere about the age of 34. The reason is that the man who goes into industry or occupation of any kind goes in for his life, but the normal woman marries somewhere about 25 to 30. Therefore, the industrial life of women is very much shorter than that of men. If you take the age groups, there are more women proportionately than men in the earlier years who are employed. You get an altogether different state of affairs when you come to the question of insurance. A man has to pay from 18 to 21 in order that he may get benefits at the age of 50 to 60. If the whole insured population were men, we should have quite a different incidence of contributions. That is my first point, that to cut down the benefits from 18 to 21 affects proportionately more women.
I come to my second point. Is a woman of 18 a child or a woman? A woman, because a woman does come to-day to full physical efficiency earlier than a man. That is acknowledged and reflected in the general course of wages. You find very few trades, except those trades with a long period of apprenticeship, where there is a difference in the rate of wages for women of 18 and 21. There are a whole set of Trade Board wages which have received the Minister's approval and in those wages, with the rare exceptions I have mentioned, the adult rate is given to women at the age of 18. I have sat on six Trade Boards and we have had very severe controversies on them. We used to fight every farthing and every penny, but the question on which we had very little dispute at all was the age at which the adult rate should be given to women. Those are wages for which the Minister is, to a certain extent, responsible, because he has approved of them. Again, when the War broke out and the men went away, women were put into occupations unsuitable for women and asked to take the place of the men who had gone to the front. Their wages were then regulated not by Trade Boards but by circulars issued by the Minister of Munitions.
I would remind the Committee of the title of the very first Order in regard to wages which was issued by the right hon. 1269 Gentleman, who was then Minister of Munitions. That was the famous circular the heading of which was "Wages applicable to women of 18 and over engaged in occupations not recognised as women's work." In that substitute work, the work which the country thought too heavy or too difficult for women, the adult age was fixed at 18. These young women are 18, and many of them are living in lodgings. How can a woman of 18 or 19 keep herself at all on the miserable sums proposed in the Amendment of the Minister? It is much too low for comfort, for clothes, for food, and, if I know the girls, what they will do is to take it out of their food. Once during the War I had the experience of seeing the difference between women on sweated wages and women on good wages. The latter spent their money on food; directly they had a little money they ate twice as much and looked extraordinarily well. Women will pinch themselves to try to keep a respectable appearance as long as they can. These young women will economise on their food and will wreck their health.
§ Mr. HAYDAYI fully endorse the whole of the condemnatory speeches that have been made in respect of this new proposal, and I particularly desire to compliment the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Miss Lawrence) on the very lucid and splendid speech which she has made upon this matter. It really gave one much food for thought, and I would recommend Members on the opposite side to study it in the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow morning. I rise particularly to correct the Minister's impression when he said that hon. Members on this side by their Amendment showed that they favoured the setting up of this class. Whatever the Amendments may portray, they only do that which can be done within the limits of Parliamentary procedure, and, as the new Clause was set up, we had to deal with it as a new Clause. He knows that we tried our best to eliminate the Clause, and were defeated in that purpose. Consequently, if we had proposed the same Amendment on this Schedule, we might have been ruled out of order as a decision had previously been arrived at. The Minister knows that the movement which we represent submitted its evidence, and it was not there suggested 1270 that this class between 18 and 21 should be set up. It was desired to set up a new class from 14 to 16, but that has been entirely ignored. It said that, whatever was done for the adult, 18 should always be the age limit for that general class.
There is another Amendment lower down on the Amendment Paper to which I would like to refer, as I understand we are dealing with the whole of the Schedule. I refer to that part of the Schedule dealing with boys and girls. The benefit is reduced in the case of boys from 7s. 6d. to 6s., and in the case of girls from 6s. to 5s. There is no corresponding readjustment as far as their payments are concerned. The Parliamentary Secretary a little while ago, when I pointed out the progressive increases in the contribution, pointed out here and there a progressive advance in the benefits. But these boys only paid 2d. per week when they were in receipt of 7s. 6d. and the girls only paid 1½d. per week when in receipt of 6s. The boys will now pay 3½d., and receive 6s. as against 7s. 6d., when they paid 2d., while the girl will only get 5s. for her new payment of 3d. as against her previous 6s. for 1½d. The Minister may, of course, say, "Yes, but in this case the gap is done away with; there will be continuous benefit." I would suggest to him that that continuous benefit is dependent on other considerations and conditions that enter into the obligations to be fulfilled before benefit can be received. It does appear to me that, if you flit from one point to another point of argument, you must try to make it all inclusive in its application. Certainly, whatever else may be said, that 6s. for the boy of 16 to 18 and the 5s. for the girl of that age makes a reduction, though their present contributions are nevertheless nearly 100 per cent. higher than when their rate of benefit was much higher. I suggest that that point should be dealt with before the final word is said, seeing that the Minister has revised his opinion and created this intermediate class. Can he not now re-establish the existing rates in the case of those young persons and make it 7s. 6d. and 6s. as at present, and not bring about the reduction he proposes in the Bill?
§ Commander WILLIAMSI am never quite able to understand the type of 1271 mind of the Member who comes down here and makes long speeches as to whether 12s. or 14s. a week is adequate to keep people living under this Bill. No one ever said it was, and it has nothing whatever to do with the whole construction of the Bill. It is either purely playing to the gallery, which I do not think is always the case, or else it is done in simple ignorance of the fact that only a very few years ago there was no Insurance Bill at all. You have got a constructive programme in this Bill, but unfortunately, in the condition of affairs existing to-day, this Bill is burdened with a debt of over £23,000,000. That is a burden which has been carried by the State. It cannot possibly be other wise than a direct addition in one way or another to the—
§ Mr. HAYDAYYou are drawing interest on it.
§ Commander WILLIAMSThat has nothing whatever to do with it. The more burdens you put on trade and industry, the more you drive people out of work.
§ The CHAIRMANThat is going rather wide.
§ Commander WILLIAMSI was only using that as an illustration to make the point clear why in an Amendment of this kind, where the Minister has already gone a very considerable way to meet hon. Members opposite, this Committee has some right to consider the other side of the question, that the burdens on the Bill are being increased by this Clause—although all of us welcome the fact that the Minister is able to give this increase—and that these increases will, if these burdens go on piling up, inevitably, sooner or later, hinder instead of help the people whom they wish to help. It is making it more difficult for them to find work, and it is increasing the burdens on those already in employment at the present time. Hon. Members opposite should realise that the Minister has made a very real attempt to meet them in this new Amendment. They should realise that he has gone a long way and is putting an additional burden on the Fund, and that, as we want the Fund to become solvent reasonably soon, it is impossible for him to give way much further.
§ Mr. WILFRID PALINGThe last speaker said that Members on this side come down here and make long speeches, but we know we cannot accuse the Minister of doing that. He has made the shortest speeches that I ever remember a Minister making on an important Bill of this description. Every bit of information has had to be dragged from him. He has had to get up three or four times to answer every point, and then the Committee was not satisfied. In the last speech he made he was so heartily ashamed of it that he spoke quite shortly, although he had the honesty to admit that nobody could be expected to live on the amount of money that is to be given. That is so much to his credit, but he went on to say—and it was the only defence he made—that everybody who knows anything about this matter had recommended these amounts. I suppose he was referring to the people who composed the Blanesburgh Committee and to the chairman of one or two rota committees, who were asked to appear before the Blanesburgh Committee and give evidence. I have been looking at the composition of the Blanesburgh Committee and I know one or two of the chairmen of rota committees, and I am wondering whether they are the people who know whether a young man is able to live on 14s. a week.
Most of these people who are supposed to know most about this matter are in positions in which they certainly have never had to depend on 14s. a week, and certainly their sons and daughters never will. The probability is that their sons and daughters will be at college until long after they pass their eighteenth year. I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman that these people know most about the matter. I should like know whether any attempt was made to get information from the people who are going to be affected; whether young women or young men, living away from home and entirely dependant on themselves—and there are a few thousands of them—were consulted? Was any evidence taken from them? I do not think so. I have not read any such evidence, yet I should imagine that these are the people who would know most about it. As a kind of an excuse it is said that a good proportion of these young men and women would not be dependent on the 14s. or 12s., because they are living at home with their parents who 1273 will be able to support them. An hon. Member opposite apparently agrees with this statement. Let me put it to him that these parents who are expected to assist these young men and women, would be able to say if it is possible to keep them on 14s. or 12s. a week respectively.
Dr. VERNON DAVIESDoes the hon. Member suggest that no members of the working class are on rota committees?
§ Mr. PALINGI do not suggest anything of the kind, but I do suggest that if the working men on rota committees had been asked to give evidence they would not have recommended these figures. If the Minister had been anxious to get into touch with the people who know most about this problem, he would have gone to those who will be affected by this legislation and to the parents of these young people, rather than to the people who have arrived at these decisions. When he says that these figures have been recommended by well-informed persons, I disagree with him. The huge majority of those who will be affected will disagree emphatically, and the other
§ people over the age of 21 who contribute to the Insurance Fund, if they had been consulted, would have been willing, I am sure by a large majority, that these young people should have higher rates of pay than they are going to get. The Minister is ashamed of the proposal himself. He has never attempted to defend it. The hon. and gallant Member for Torquay (Commander Williams) gets up and says that we ought to realise that as the contribution is only 6d. a week you can only pay so much benefit out. It seems to be all a question of £ s. d. It is a question of £ s. d. as against human lives and the welfare of the people of this country. In fact, it has always weighed in the balance against any question of human welfare. It is the angle from which these amounts of 14s. and 12s. have been viewed by the Government and the Minister, and for these reasons I hope that we shall vote against the Amendment, and in favour of the increase.
§ Question put, "That '14s. 0d.' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 247;. Noes, 145.
1277| [Division No. 444.] | AYES. | [7.22 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Caine, Gordon Hall | Fermoy, Lord |
| Albery, Irving James | Campbell, E. T. | Fielden, E. B. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Cassels, J. D. | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool.W. Derby) | Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Frece, Sir Walter dl |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Cazalet, Captain Victor A | Galbraith, J. F. W. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Chapman, Sir S. | Gates, Percy |
| Atkinson, C. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Chilcott, Sir Warden | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Gower, Sir Robert |
| Balnlel, Lord | Clarry, Reginald George | Grace, John |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Clayton, G. C. | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Grant, Sir J. A. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cevendish | Colman, N. C. D. | Greene, W. P. Crawford |
| Berry, Sir George | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) |
| Bethel, A. | Cooper, A. Dun | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Cope, Major William | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Grotrian, H. Brent |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Crookshank. Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Hanbury, C. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Harland, A. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Brittain. Sir Harry | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Dawson, Sir Philip | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Drewe, C. | Hawke, John Anthony |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. |
| Brown, Col. D. C (N'th'I'd., Hexham) | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Henderson, Capt. R-R.(Oxf'd, Henley> |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Ellis, R. G. | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L.(Bootle) |
| Burman, J. B. | England, Colonel A. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.' |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Everard, W. Lindsay | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G- |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) |
| Hohler Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Skelton, A. N. |
| Holt, Capt. H. P. | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Hopkinsan. A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Huntingfield, Lore | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Iveagh, Countess of | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G (Ptrsf'ld.) | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Nuttall, Ellis | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Oakley, T. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Jones, G. W-H. (Stoke Newington) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Penny, Frederick George | Tinne, J. A. |
| Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Perring, Sir William George | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Kinioch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Knox, Sir Alfred | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frame) | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Lamb, J. 0. | Pilcher, G. | Waddington, R. |
| Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Pownall, Sir Assheton | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Lister Cunilffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Preston, William | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Little, Dr. E. Graham | Price, Major C. W. M. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Ottay) |
| Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Radford, E. A. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Loder, J. de V. | Ramsden, E. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Luce, Maj.-Gen. sir Richard Harman | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Lumley, L. R. | Remer, J. R. | Wells, S. R. |
| Lynn, Sir R. J. | Remnant, Sir James | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Rentoul, G. S. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Rice. Sir Frederick | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| McDonnell, Colonel Hon, Angus | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| McLean, Major A. | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Macmillan Captain H. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Macquisten, F. A. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge 4 Hyde) |
| MacRobert, Alexander M. | Rye, F. G. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). |
| Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel- | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | woodcock. Colonel H. O. |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Sandeman, N. Stewart | Wragg, Herbert |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Sandon, Lord | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Margesson, Capt. D. | Savery, S. S. | |
| Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Meller, R. J. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Major Sir Harry Barnston and Mr. F. c. Thomson. |
| Merriman. F. B. | Shepperson, E. W. | |
| Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer) | Lawson, John James |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Fenby, T. D. | Lindley, F. W. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Forrest, W. | Livingstone, A M. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Gardner, J. P. | Lowth, T. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Lunn, William |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Gibbins, Joseph | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) |
| Baker, Walter | Gillett, George M. | Mackinder, W. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Gosling, Harry | MacLaren, Andrew |
| Barnes, A. | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Barr, J | Greenall, T. | MacNeill-Weir, L. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | March, S. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Montague, Frederick |
| Broad, F. A. | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Bromfield, William | Groves, T. | Murnin, H. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Oliver, George Harold |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Palln, John Henry |
| Buchanan, G. | Hardie, George D. | Paling, W. |
| Cape, Thomas | Harris, Percy A. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Clowes, S. | Hayday, Arthur | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Cluse, W. S. | Hayes, John Henry | Potls, John S. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Rees, Sir Beddoe |
| Compton, Joseph | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Ritson. J. |
| Connolly, M. | Hirst, G. H. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) |
| Cove, W. G. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks. W. R., Elland) |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Rose, Frank H. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Sakiatvaia, Shapuril |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vaie) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Scurr, John |
| Dennison, R. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Sexton, James |
| Duncan, C. | Kennedy, T. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Dunnico, H. | Kenworthy. Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Edge, Sir William | Kirkwood, D. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lansbury, George | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Calthness) |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Lawrence, Susan | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Tinker, John Joseph | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J |
| Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) | Townend, A E. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Snell, Harry | Variey, Frank B. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Viant, S. P. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Stamford, T. W. | Wallhaad, Richard C. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Stephen, Campbell | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Sullivan, J. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) | Windsor, Walter |
| Sutton, J. E. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney | Wright, W. |
| Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.) | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) | Welsh, J. C. | |
| Thurtle, Ernest | Westwood, J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Whiteley. |
§ Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment: In line 5, to leave out "12s. 0d.," and insert instead thereof "14s. 0d."—[Mr. A. Greenwood.]
1278§ Question put, "That '12s. Od.' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 254; Noes, 148.
1279| Division No. 445.] | AYES. | [7.30 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Holt, Capt. H. P. |
| Albery, Irving James | Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Cunllffe, Sir Herbert | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. |
| Apsley, Lord | Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Huntingfield, Lord |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Iveagh, Countess of |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Dawson, Sir Philip | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cent) |
| Atkinson, C. | Drewe, C. | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) |
| Balniel, Lord | Ellis, R. G. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | England, Colonel A. | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Everard, W. Lindsay | Kinioch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Bennett, A. J. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Berry, Sir George | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Lamb, J. O. |
| Bethel, A. | Fermoy, Lord | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Flelden, E. B. | Lister, Cunliffe-. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Little, Dr. E. Graham |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Frece, Sir Walter de | Loder, J. de V. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Luce, Maj. Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Gates, Percy | Lumley, L. R. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Lynn, Sir R. J. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col, Rt. Hon. Sir John | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Goff, Sir Park | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Grace, John | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Grant, Sir J. A. | McLean, Major A. |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Greene. W. P. Crawford | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w. E) | Macnaghten. Hon. Sir Malcolm |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Burman, J. B. | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Butt. Sir Alfred | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Calne, Gordon Hall | Hammersley, S. S. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hanbury, C. | Meller, R. J. |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Merriman, F. B. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Harland, A. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Charterls, Brigadier-General J. | Haslam, Henry C. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Hawke, John Anthony | Murchison, Sir Kenneth |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Henderson, Capt. R.R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Oakley, T. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hills, Major John Waller | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Penny, Frederick George |
| Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Sandon, Lord | Waddington, R. |
| Perring, Sir William George | Savery, S. S. | Ward. Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Peto, G. (Somerset, Frame) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Pilcher, G. | Shepperson, E. W. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Pownall, Sir Assheton | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Preston, William | Skelton, A. N. | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Price, Major C. W. M. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.) | Wells, S. R. |
| Radford, E. A. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Ramsden, E. | Sprot, Sir Alexander | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Rawson, Sir Cooper | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Remer, J. R. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Remnant, Sir James | Storry-Deans, R. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Rentoul, G. S. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. | Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Rice, Sir Frederick | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Roberts, E. H. R. (Flint) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) | Wood, Sir kingsley (Woolwich W.) |
| Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) | Thompson. Luke (Sunaerland) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Tinne, J. A. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Rye, F. G. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | |
| Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putneyi | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Sandeman, N. Stewart | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough | Major Cope and Mr. F. C. Thomson. |
| Sanderson, Sir Frank | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hardie, George D. | Scurr, John |
| Ammon, Charles George | Harris, Percy A. | Sexton, James |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hayday, Arthur | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Baker, Walter | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Barnes, A. | Hirst, G. H. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Barr, J. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Siesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hudson, J. H. Huddersfield | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Broad, F. A. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bromfield, William | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Buchanan, G. | Kennedy, T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Cape, Thomas | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Sullivan, J. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kirkwood, D. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Clowes, S | Lansbury, George | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lawrence, Susan | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lawson, John James | Thurtie, Ernest |
| Compton, Joseph | Lindley, F. W. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Connolly, M. | Livingstone, A. M. | Townend, A. E. |
| Cove, W. G. | Lowth, T. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lunn, William | Variey, Frank B. |
| Dalton, Hugh | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Viant, S. P. |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Mackinder, W. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Day, Colonel Harry | MacLaren, Andrew | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dennison, R. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Duckworth, John | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Duncan, C. | March, S. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Dunnico, H. | Montague, Frederick | Welsh, J. C. |
| Edge, Sir William | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Westwood, J. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity) | Murnin, H. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Oliver, George Harold | Whiteley, W. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Palin, John Henry | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Fenby, T. D. | Paling, W. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Forrest, W. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh. Wrexham) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Potts, John S. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gillett, George M. | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Ritson, J. | Windsor Walter |
| Greenall, T. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) | Wright, w. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Rose, Frank H. | |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Groves, T. | Sakiatvaia, Shapurji | Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Hayes. |
§ Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment: In line 9, to leave out 1280 "12s. 0d.,"and insert instead thereof "15s. 0d."—[Mr. Stephen.]
1281§ Question put, "That '12s. 0d.' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
1282§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 251; Noes, 150.
1283| Division No. 446.] | AYES. | [7.40 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Everard, W. Lindsay | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Mason, Lieut-Col. Glyn K. |
| Albery, Irving James | Fermoy, Lord | Meller, B. J |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Fleiden, E. B. | Merriman, F. B. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- |
| Apsley, Lord | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Ashley,' Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Frece, Sir Walter de | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover) | Ganzoni, Sir John | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Gates, Percy | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Atkinson, C. | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Murchison, Sir Kenneth |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Goff, sir Park | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Balniel, Lord | Grace, John | Neville, Sir Reginald J. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Barnston, Major sir Harry | Grant, Sir J. A. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Bennett, A. J. | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Oakley, T. |
| Berry, Sir George | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Bethel, A. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Penny, Frederick George |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Perring, Sir William George |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Hammersley, S. S. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hanbury, C. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Pilcher, G. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Harland, A. | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Preston, William |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Harrison, G. J. C. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Harvey, G. (Lambeth. Kennington) | Radford, E. A. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Ramsden, E. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Haslam, Henry C. | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Hawke, John Anthony | Remer, J. R. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Remnant, Sir James |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Burman, J. B. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Richardson. Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Hills, Major John Waller | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. sir S. J. G. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Caine, Gordon Hall | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hohier, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Casseis. J. D. | Holt, Captain H. P. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Rye, F. G. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sandon, Lord |
| Charterls, Brigadier-General J. | Huntingfield, Lord | Savery, S. S. |
| Chlicott, Sir Warden | Iveagh, Countess of | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Jackson. Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Clarry, Reginald George | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Jephcott, A. R. | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Cobb. Sir Cyril | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C> |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Steel. Major Samuel Strang |
| Cope, Major William | Knox, Sir Alfred | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Lamb, J. Q. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Crookshank. Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Loder, J. de V. | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Thomson. Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Tinne, J. A. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Dawson Sir Philip | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Drewe. C. | McLean, Major A. | Vaughan-M organ, Col. K. P. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Waddington, R. |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Ward. Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Ellis, R. G. | Macquisten, F. A. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| England, Colonel A. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Watts, Dr. T. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Wayla'nd, Sir William A. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl | Wragg, Herbert |
| Wells, S. R. | Wolmer, Viscount | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) | Womersley, W. J. | |
| Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) | Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Margesson. |
| Wilson, R. R. (Staftord, Lichfield) | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Saklatvaia, Shapurji |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Groves, T. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillebro') | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Scurr, John |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hardie, George D. | Sexton, James |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Harris, Percy A. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Baker, Walter | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hayday, Arthur | Simon, Rt. Hon Sir John |
| Barnes, A. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, G. H. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Broad, F. A. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Brornfield, William | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Cape, Thomas | Kennedy, T. | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Sutton. J. E. |
| Clowes, S. | Kirkwood, D. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. w.) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lansbury, George | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lawrence, Susan | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Compton, Joseph | Lawson, John James | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Connolly, M. | Lindley, F. W. | Townend, A. E. |
| Cove, W. G, | Livingstone, A. M. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lowth, T. | Variey, Frank B. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lunn, William | Viant, S. P. |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Mackinder, W. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dennison R. | MacLaren, Andrew | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Duckworth, John | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Duncan, C. | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Dunnico, H. | March, S. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Edge, Sir William | Montague, Frederick | Westwood, J. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Morrison. R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Murnin, H. | Whiteley, W. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Oliver, George Harold | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Fenby, T. D. | Palln, John Henry | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Forrest, W. | Paling, W. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G M. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gillett, George M. | Potts, John S. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Gosling, Harry | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Windsor, Walter |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Ritson, J. | Wright, W. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Greenall, T. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland) | |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Rose, Frank H. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Hayes. |
§ Miss LAWRENCEI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 10, to leave out "10s. 0d.," and to insert instead thereof "13s. 0d."
§ Question put, "That '10s. 0d.' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 251; Noes, 148.
1287| Division No. 447.] | AYES. | [7.50 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Boothby, R. J. G. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Balniel, Lord | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft |
| Albery, Irving James | Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Braithwaite, Major A. N. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive |
| Apsley, Lord | Bennett, A. J. | Briggs, J. Harold |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Berry, Sir George | Brittain, Sir Harry |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Bethel, A. | Brocklebank, C. E. R. |
| Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent, Dover) | Betterton, Henry B. | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipten) | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. |
| Atkinson, C. | Blades, Sir George Rowland | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Blundell, F. N. | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James |
| Barman, J. B. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Pilcher, G. |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D, | Haslam, Henry C. | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hawke, John Anthony | Preston, William |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Radford, E. A. |
| Caine, Gordon Hall | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Ramsden, E. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Herbert Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hills, Major John Waller | Remer, J. R. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Remnant. Sir James |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Chapman Sir S. | Holt, Captain H. P. | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Charteris,' Brigadier-General J. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M,(Hackney, N.) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Huntingfield, Lord | Rye, F. G. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Iveagh, Countess of | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Jackson, sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Jephcott, A. R. | Sandon. Lord |
| Cope, Major William | Jones. G. w. H. (Stoke Newington) | Savery, S. S. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Kidd, J. (Linilthgow) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Kinioch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Skelton, A. N. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Knox, Sir Alfred | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lamb, J. Q. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Stanley. Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Loder, J. de V. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Drewe, C. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Ellis, R. G. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| England, Colonel A. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | McLean, Major A. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Fermoy, Lord | Macquisten, F. A. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Fielden, E. B. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel- | Waddington, R. |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Wallace, Captain D. K. |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Ward Lt.-Col At-(Kingston-on-Hull. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Galbralth, J. F. W. | Meller. R. J. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Merriman, F. B. | Watson Rt. Hon, W. (Carlisle) |
| Gates, Percy | Milne. J. S. Wardlaw- | Watts. Dr. T. |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Wells, S. R. |
| Goff Sir Park | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern |
| Grace, John | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur dive | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Greene. W. P. Crawford | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Grotrian, H. Brent. | Nicholson. O. (Westminster) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Nuttall, Ellis | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Oakley T. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Hammersley. S. S. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Hanbury, C. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Wragg, Herbert |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Penny, Frederick George | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Harland, A. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Perrlng, Sir William George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Major Sir George Hennessy and Captain Margesson. |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson. Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) | Barr, J. | Buchanan, G. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Batey, Joseph | Cape, Thomas |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Bondfield, Margaret | Charleton, H. C. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Clowes, S. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Broad, F. A. | Cluse, W. S. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Bromfield, William | Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. |
| Baker, Walter | Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Compton. Joseph |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Connolly, M. |
| Cove, W. G. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Kennedy, T. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Siesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vaie) | Kirkwood, D. | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Lansbury, George | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Dennison, R. | Lawrence, Susan | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Duckworth, John | Lawson, John James | Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) |
| Duncan, C. | Lindley, F. w. | Stamford, T. w. |
| Dunnico, H | Livingstone, A. M. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Edge, Sir William | Lowth, T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lunn, William | Sullivan, J. |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Macklnder, W. | Thorns, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Forrest, W. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Gardner, J. P. | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | March, S. | Townend, A. E. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Montague, Frederick | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Gillett, George M. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Variey, Frank B. |
| Gosling, Harry | Murnin, H. | Viant, S. P. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Oliver, George Harold | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Greenail, T. | Palln, John Henry | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins) | Paling, W. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Groves, T. | Ponsonby, Arthur' | Welsh, J. C. |
| Hall, F. (York., W.R., Normanton) | Potts, John S. | Westwood, J. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Hardie, George D. | Ritson, J. | Whiteley, W. |
| Harris. Percy A. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks. W. R., Elland) | Williams, C. P. Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Hayes, John Henry | Rose, Frank H. | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianeily) |
| Henderson. T. (Glasgow) | Sakiatvaia, Shapurji | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hirst, G. H. | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Scrymgeour, E. | Windsor, Walter |
| Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Scurr, John | Wright, W. |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Sexton, James | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. B. Smith and Mr. A. Barnes. |
Question,. "That the proposed words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
§ Further Amendment made:
§ In page 13, line 9, leave out "21" and insert "19."—[Sir A. Steel-Maitland.]
1288§ Question put, "That this Schedule, as amended, be the Third Schedule to the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 255; Noes, 149.
1291| Division No. 448.] | AYES. | [8.1 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. |
| Albery, Irving James | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) | Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Buchan, John | Cunliffe, Sir Herbert |
| Apsley, Lord | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Curzon, Captain Viscount |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W | Burman, J. B. | Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Davies, Ma|. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Burton, Colonel H. W. | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) |
| Atkinson, C. | Butt, Sir Alfred | Davies, Dr. Vernon |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Caine, Gordon Hall | Dawson, Sir Philip |
| Balniel, Lord | Campbell. E. T. | Drewe, C. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Casseis, J. D. | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Cautley, Sir Henry s. | Elliot, Major Walter E. |
| Beamisn, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Ellis, R. G. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | England, Colonel A. |
| Berry, Sir George | Chapman, Sirs. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) |
| Bethel, A. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Everard, W. Lindsay |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Clarry, Reginald George | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Clayton, G. C. | Fermoy, Lord |
| Blundell, F. N. | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Fleiden, E. B. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Colman, N. C. D. | Forestier-Walker. Sir L. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Cooper. A. Duff | Frece, Sir Walter de |
| Bridgman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Cope. Major William | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Gaibraith, J. F W. |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Rye, F. G. |
| Gates, Percy | Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Goff, Sir Park | Macdonneil, Colonel Hon. Angus | Sandon, Lord |
| Grace, John | McLean, Major A. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Macmillan, Captain H. | Savery, S. S. |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Macquisten, F. A. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel | Skelton, A. N. |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Margesson, Captain D. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Meller, R. J. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Hanbury, C. | Merriman, F. B. | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Harland, A. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Stuart, Crichton-. Lord C. |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred- | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. at. Hon. B. M. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Murchison, Sir Kenneth | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle) | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Hills. Major John Waller | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Nuttall, Ellis | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Oakley, T. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Waddington, R. |
| Holt, Capt. H. P. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Pennefather, Sir John | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Penny, Frederick George | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Perring, Sir William George | Watson. Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Huntingfield, Lord | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Iveagh, Countess of | Pilcher, G. | Wells, S. R. |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Pownall, Sir Assheton | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Preston, William | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Price, Major C. W. M. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Radford, E. A. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Ramsden, E. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Kindersley, Major G. M, | Remer, J. R. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Remnant, Sir James | Womersley, W. J. |
| Kinioch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Rentoul, G. S. | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Knox, Sir Alfred | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Rice, Sir Frederick | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich W.) |
| Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Richardson, Sir p. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Little, Dr. E. Graham | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) | |
| Loder, J. de V. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Major Sir George Hennessy and Captain Bowyer. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) | Compton, Joseph | Gosling, Harry |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Connolly, M. | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Cove, W. G. | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Crawfurd. H. E. | Greenall, T. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Dalton, Hugh | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Davies. Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) |
| Baker, Walter | Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vain | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Day, Colonel Harry | Groves, T. |
| Barr, J. | Dennison, R. | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) |
| Batey, Joseph | Duckworth, John | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Duncan, C. | Hardie, George D. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Dunnico, H. | Harris, Percy A. |
| Broad, F. A. | Edge, Sir William | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon |
| Bromfield, William | Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Hayday, Arthur |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Hayes, John Henry |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) |
| Buchanan, G. | Fenby, T. D. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) |
| Cape, Thomas | Forrest, W. | Hirst, G. H. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Gardner, J. P. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) |
| Clowes, S. | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie |
| Cluse, W. S. | Gibbins, Joseph | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Gillett. George M. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Ritson, J. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) | Townend, A. E. |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Kennedy, T. | Rose, Frank H. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Runciman, Rt. Hon Walter | Viant, S. P. |
| Kirkwood, D. | Sakiatvaia, Shapurji | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Lansbury, George | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Lawrence, Susan | Scrymgeour, E. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Lawson, John James | Scurr, John | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Lindley, F. W. | Sexton, James | Webb. Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Lowth, T. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | |
| Lunn, William | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Westwood, J. |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Whiteley, w. |
| Mackinder, W. | Sitch, Charles H. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Siesser, Sir Henry H. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| MacNeill-Weir, L. | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) | Williams. C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| March, S. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Montague, Frederick | Snowten, Rt. Hon. Philip | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Murnin, H. | Stamford, T. W. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Oliver, George Harold | Stephen, Campbell | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Palin, John Henry | Stewart, J. (St. Redox) | Windsor, Walter |
| Paling, W. | Strauss, E. A. | Wright, W. |
| Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Sullivan, J. | Young. Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Sutton, J. E. | |
| Ponsonby, Arthur | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Potts, John S. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) | Mr. B. Smith and Mr. A. Barnes. |
| Rees, Sir Beddoe | Thurtle, Ernest |