Mr. DEPUTY - SPEAKERWith regard to the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr. Fealty) I understand from Mr. Speaker that part of the matter involved has already been discussed, and, therefore, there can be no long debate upon it.
§ Mr. FENBYI beg to move, in page 14, line 27, to leave out the words
(including those relating to the Small Holdings Commissioners).This Amendment raises a very vital issue. Up to the time when this Bill appeared, the question of the provision of small holdings have been regarded from two points of view, first from the national point of view and, second, from the local point of view. Without this Amendment the Schedule would do away with the Small Holdings Commissioners, which would mean taking away a measure of support from a man who wants a small holding when no attempt to provide one is made by the local authority. When the Act of 1908 was drawn up it was realised that it would not be always possible to obtain land for small holdings, even though the authority were desirous of meeting the demand, because it would not always be possible to obtain the land by Voluntary means, and it was then thought wise that the Ministry should have representatives in particular areas to assist county authorities faced with this difficulty in obtaining land. Between 1908 and 1914 a very large number of compulsory orders were obtained, but, at the same time, a large number of compulsory orders were avoided, becauses in cases where local authorities had failed to obtain land by Voluntary arrangements the Commissioners came in, and as they had behind them the authority and the pressure of a Government Department they were able more speedily and more amicably to obtain land.If we study the figures showing how many acres have been provided since the 1908 Act and the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act, 1919, and study also the figures giving the number of smallholders, it will be found that they vary considerably among the authorities charged with administering the Act. Some county authorities are absolutely behind the times, whereas other authorities have made very considerable progress, and if the backward ones had done anything
§ like as much as the others we should have had a very much larger number of smallholders, cultivating a good many more acres, with a much greater supply of food from the land. It is this urge of the Commissioners that it is the object of my Amendment to secure.
§ Mr. G. THORNEI beg to second the Amendment.
Mr. GUINNESSAs you pointed out in calling this Amendment, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, it really covers substantially the same point as the first New Clause which was rejected this afternoon. It is one of a series of Amendments to give the Small Holdings Commissioners the powers which they exercised under the Act of 1908. We wish to work in partnership with the local authorities, and we believe that the financial inducements which we offer in this Bill to help them to provide small holdings will be adequate to secure their ready co-operation in the work. We have had experience of how much can be done by the method of financial persuasion. There have never been any Commissioners to drive the local authorities in connection with agricultural education, and yet, by means of a carefully administered system of grants, astonishing progress in agricultural education has been made in the last 20 years, at considerable expense to the local authorities. The attitude of the county councils towards small holdings has changed very much since 1908. All have now small holdings estates, and all have zealous and experienced staffs, and, Personally, I have no doubt we shall get better results from their willing co-operation than by reinstating this obsolete system of Small Holdings Commissioners and attempting to force the authorities to provide small holdings.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 172; Noes, 104.
1127| Division No. 515.] | AYES. | [9.29 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Birchall, Major J. Dearman |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Balniel, Lord | Blundell, F. N. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Boothby, R. J. G. |
| Albery, Irving James | Harnett, Major Sir Richard | Bourne. Captain Robert Croft |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Braithwaite, A. N. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Bennett, A. J. | Brass, Captain W. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Betterton, Henry B. | Briscoe, Richard George |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Henderson,Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Perring, Sir William George |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Preston, William |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hills, Major John Walter | Raine, W. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hilton, Cecil | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Christie, J. A. | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Clayton, G. C. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Rye, F. G. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. | Hudson, R.S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Cope, Major William | Huntingfield, Lord | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, putney) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Hurd, Percy A. | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Hurst, Gerald B. | Savery, S. S. |
| Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Skelton, A. N. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) | Knox, Sir Alfred | Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.) |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Looker, Herbert William | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Lougher, L. | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Streatfield, Captain S. R. |
| Drewe, C. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Sueter, Roar-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | MacIntyre, Ian | Thom, Lt. Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | McLean, Major A. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Elveden, Viscount | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Macquisten, F. A. | Waddington, R. |
| Fanshawe, Commander G. D. | Mac Robert, Alexander M. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Fielden, E. B. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel- | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Finburgh, S. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Malone, Major P. B. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Margesson, Captain D. | Wells, S. R. |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Gault, Lieut. -Col. Andrew Hamilton | Merrlman, F. B. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Meyer, Sir Frank | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Goff, Sir Park | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Murchison, C. K. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Neville, R. I. | Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich) |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | |
| Hanbury, C. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Nuttall, Ellis | Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain |
| Haslam, Henry C. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Lord Stanley. |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Greenall, T. | March, S. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Maxton, James |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) |
| Baker, Walter | Grundy, T. W. | Montague, Frederick |
| Barnes, A. | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Batey, Joseph | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Murnin, H. |
| Bromfield, William | Hardie, George D. | Naylor, T. E. |
| Bromley, J. | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Oliver, George Harold |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hayday, Arthur | Paling, W. |
| Buchanan, G. | Hayes, John Henry | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Potts, John S. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hirst, G. H. | Purcell, A. A. |
| Clowes, S. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Rees, Sir Beddoe |
| Cluse, W. S. | Hudson, J. H. (Hudderaneld) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W.Bromwich) |
| Compton, Joseph | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W. R.,Elland) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Jonas, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Sexton, James |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Dennison, R. | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Duckworth, John | Kennedy, T. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Duncan, c. | Kirkwood, D. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Dunnico, H. | Lawson, John James | Stephen, Campbell |
| Edwards. C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lee, F. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Lindley, F. W. | Taylor, R. A. |
| England, Colonel A. | Lowth, T. | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Forrest, W. | Lunn, William | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Gardner, J. P. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Gosling, Harry | MacLaren, Andrew | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Townend, A. E. |
| Trevslyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. | Wright, W. |
| Varley, Frank B. | Wiggins, William Martin | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Viant, S. P. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) | |
| Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen | Williams, David (Swansea, East] | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Webb. Rt. Hon. Sidney | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) | Mr. Fenby and Mr. Percy Harris. |
| Westwood, J. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |