Commons Sitting of 23 November 1926

Preamble
The House met of a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
VIVISECTION (PETITION).
Mr. LANSBURY: I desire to present a petition signed by residents in the Wood Green, Hammersmith and Lewisham districts, praying that this House will pass a Bill withdrawing the sanction of the law to the practice of vivisection.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Perth Corporation Water Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

EMERGENCY POWERS ACT, 1920 (PROCLAMATION).
Captain WEDGWOOD BENN:I would like, Mr. Speaker, to ask you a question as to privilege. Under the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, a Proclamation may be issued in Council declaring a state of emergency. The Act provides that the Proclamation shall be forthwith communicated to Parliament. I observe from the newspapers that such a Proclamation was issued on Saturday, but as far as I am aware no communication whatever has been made to either House of Parliament, and I submit that this is a breach of the statutory privileges of this House.
Mr. SPEAKER: If it be a breach of the Statute, the remedy does not lie with me. It is not for me to answer that question. As to the question of the privilege of this House, the hon. and gallant Member has not given me notice of the matter, and I cannot deal with it without notice.
Captain BENN: I submit that this House is the right place in which to raise
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a question as to whether the privileges of the House, statutory or by practice, are infringed. The reason I could not give you, Mr. Speaker, notice was that I had been expecting that such notice would have been received,. and as such a message has not been received I thought. It my duty to draw your attention to the fact that the privileges of this House had been infringed.
Mr. SPEAKER: I am informed that a Message is to be delivered to the House to-day. On the other point, I cannot give any answer without time for consideration.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  IRISH LIGHTS SERVICE.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade if the Irish lights service is to be taken over by the Irish Free State Government?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): The matter is at present the subject of negotiations between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the Trish Free State.

  FOODSTUFFS.

    PRICES (TRADE ASSOCIATIONS).
    Mr. W. BAKERasked the President of the Board of Trade in how many cases trade associations in this country exercise a control over prices; and what commodities are affected by such Regulation?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am not in a position to make a detailed and comprehensive statement of the kind which the hon. Member desires.
    Mr. BAKER: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will cause inquiry to be made in view of the great importance of this question?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-L1STER: No, Sir. If there is a particular item which is worthy of investigation, I shall be prepared to consider it.
    Mr. B. SMITH: Is it not the fact that associations exist for the control of prices, and, if that is so, cannot we get the information sought for by this House?
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: May I ask whether this control extends to taxicab fares?
    Sir P. CUNLIFEE-LISTER: I cannot answer the last question. As regards the other point, I have no statutory powers to make inquiry, and I much doubt whether a roving inquiry, where you have no specific grievance to be investigated, would be desirable.

    FOOD COUNCIL (COST).
    Mr. G. HARVEYasked the President of the Board of Trade the present-day cost of maintaining the Food Council?
    Sir P. CUNLIFEE-LISTER: The present-day cost of maintaining the Food Council, apart. from certain miscellaneous items of expenditure such as postages, rent, telephones, heating and lighting, which are not readily available, is at the rate of £2,613 per annum.

    MEAT PRICES.
    Sir WALTER de FRECEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the attention of the Food Council has been called to the recent large decline in the wholesale prices of meat and to the failure of the retailer to pass on the benefit to the consumer: and what steps it is proposed to take?
    Sir P. CUNLIFEE-LISTER: I understand that the attention of the Food Council has been called to the decline in the wholesale prices of meat in the first two weeks of November as compared with October. As to retail prices, these, of course, differ widely, but a decline is also noticeable in the retail prices shown on the list published each week by the Smithfield Markets' Committee during the same periods. The Food Council have under consideration the general question of meat prices, and I understand that their first Report on this subject will be made to me shortly.

    IRISH CREAM.
    Mr. SANDEMANasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the
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    Food Council intends to inquire into the price at which Irish cream is being sold in the North of England, in view of the allegations of profiteering in the sale of this article?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Burton Chadwick):I understand that. no complaints have been received the Food Council on this subject.
    Mr. SANDEMAN: Is my hon. Friend aware that this Irish Free State cream is being brought in by certain societies in the North of Enid m?, and is being sold against English cream at 16s. a gallon?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: If my hon. Friend will give me particulars of any cases he has in mind I shall be glad to have them looked into.

  POST OFFICE.

    POST-MARKING MACHINES.(PATENTS).
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the post-marking machines used in the Post Office are made in the United States of America; whether he can state if these machines are protected by British patents; and, if so, whether such patents will be cancelled if manufacture of the machines is not in future carried on in this country?
    Sir P. CUNLIFEL-LISTER: I am informed that the machines used by the Post Office for the obliteration of postage stamps are made abroad, some by Norwegian and some by American firms. In reply to the second part of the question, it has only been possible to identify one current British patent, the specification of which describes machines of a kind similar to one of the types of machine in use. As regards the third part, it is open to any person interested who alleges that a patented intention is not being worked in the United Kingdom on a commercial scale, to apply to the Patent Office, under Section 27 of the Patents Acts, 1907 and 1919, for a licence under the patent or, as an alternative, the revocation of the patent. No revocation can be ordered or licence granted under the Section unless application be made for that purpose.

    WIRELESS MESSAGES (RUGBY STATION).
    Mr. WILLIAMSalso asked the Postmaster-General whether the wireless news service transmitted to ships at sea from the Rugby wireless station is issued by the authority of his Department?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir William Mitchell - Thomson):News messages despatched by the Wireless Press, Limited, are transmitted twice daily from the Rugby station for reception by ships at sea whose owners subscribe to the company's news service. In addition, official news messages compiled by the Foreign Office are transmitted from Rubgy three times a day for reception by all stations whether on land or on ships. In both cases the Post Office is merely the transmitting agency.

    SAVINGS BANK (WITHDRAWAL LIMIT).
    Colonel DAYasked the Postmaster-General whether, as a result of his inquiries, it is yet possible to make an extension of the limit of £1 which can be withdrawn on demand from the Post Office Savings Bank, irrespective of the amount standing to the depositor's credit?
    Sir W. MITCHELLTHOMSON: The inquiries on the question of extending the limit of £1 for a withdrawal on demand from the Post Office Savings Bank are still proceeding, and I am not vet in a position to make a statement on the subject.

    TELEPHONE DIRECTORY (THUMB-SLOTTING).
    Colonel DAYasked the Postmaster-General if he will consider thumb-slotting the Telephone Directory with a view to providing an index owing to the bulky composition of this publication?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: No, Sir. The work would cost £10,000 year, and would seriously delay publication.
    Colonel DAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this would be a very great convenience to the public, and as there are 360,000 directories issued each year, the cost would not be very much over all of them?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSONQuite so, but I am told that it would take 100 men seven weeks to do it.

    MOTOR LORRIES.
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Postmaster-General whether he will take steps to ensure that in future all motor lorries purchased for the use of his Department are of British manufacture?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: It is the present practice of the Post Office to purchase motor lorries of British manufacture, and I propose to continue that practice.
    Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOX: Will the right hon. Gentleman state how many lorries, purchased last year were of British manufacture and how many were of foreign manufacture?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: All were of British manufacture and none were foreign.

    LETTER DELIVERIES, BRISTOL.
    Mr. W. BAKERasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the last delivery of letters in the district of St. George, in the City of Bristol, is timed to be made at 2.15 p.m.; that the last general collection of letters takes place at 6 p.m.; that the 4.45 a.m. collection, which connects with the local first delivery and with the Bristol and Penzance travelling post office, is not made in St. George, because, whilst the city postal area extends to a point four miles distant from the head office in a northerly direction, its boundary is fixed at a distance of two miles in the easterly direction, to the exclusion of St. George; whether he is aware that the district of St. George is an important business and industrial area, wholly within the City of Bristol; that it is handicapped by the lack of the adequate postal facilities which are given to the residential areas; whether his attention has been called to the office accommodation at the St. George office, which has remained unaltered since 1881, the postmen's office being a room 14 feet 5 inches by 9 feet 9 inches, without sanitary accommodation; and whether, seeing that the question of these postal facilities has been the subject of representations to the surveyor for some years past, and having regard to the urgency of securing an improvement in the local collections, he will consider the advisability of erecting an adequate district postmen's office in this locality so as to improve the local postal facilities?
    Sir F. MEYER: Before this question is answered, Mr. Speaker, may I ask if it is in order for an hon. Member to evade the rule which limits the number of verbal questions to three by putting down a question which itself contains about ten different questions within the scope of one?
    Mr. SPEAKER: All the parts of the question seem to apply to one matter.
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I am making inquiries as to the delivery and collection arrangements in these districts, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member in due course. Proposals for the provision of a Postmen's District Office in East Bristol are under 'consideration.

    SOUTH AFRICAN BEAM STATIONS.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Postmaster-General if he can inform the House when the South African beam station will he completed and available for messages?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The beam stations for communication with South Africa are practically completed and preliminary tests have been carried out by the contractors. The tests indicate that the use of shorter wavelengths than those for which the stations were origiNally designed will probably give a better and more continuous service, and the aerials are accordingly being adjusted to enable these shorter wavelengths to be employed. The contractors anticipate that the necessary alterations can be effected in about seven weeks. Tests under the new conditions will then be necessary before the service can be opened to the public.

    FOREIGN LETTERS (OBLITERATING POSTMARK).
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Postmaster-General whether he is prepared to consider suggestions for making use of the obliterating postmark on letters addressed to foreign countries for the purpose of calling the attention of the recipients to one or other of the many claims possessed by Great Britain as a centre of interest for visitors from abroad?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I am always happy to consider any sugges-
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    tions from my hon. Friend, but I would remind him of the practical difficulty mentioned in reply to his question of the 10th November.

    AUXILIARY SORTERS.
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Postmaster-General whether the opportunity which is to be afforded auxiliary sorters of performing full-time duties during the period of Christmas pressure will be upon the basis of the rates of pay paid to the staff normally performing such duties, or upon the basis of the lower rates paid to auxiliary sorters in 3rdinary times?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: Auxiliary sorters employed on full-time duties during the Christmas pressure period will be paid, at their option, either at the flat rate applicable to the special Christmas staff, or at the rate and under the conditions applicable to them at other periods of the year when temporarily employed on full-time duties.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that none of these auxiliary postmen is paid less wages than those actually received for unemployment pay last year?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I cannot say that.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    BRITISH SHIPPING COMPANIES (FRED GETS).
    Lord APSLEYasked the President of the Board of Trade if he has any statistics which show the extent to which the freights of British shipping companies have been increased since 1st May last; and whether he can state the extent to which these increased charges are paid by British consumers and in respect of what articles?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The answer is a long one, and my hon. Friend will perhaps agree to my circulating it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The following is the answer:
    The demand for vessels to carry coal from the United States, and from some European ports, to this country has led to an advance in freight rates on various other classes of goods. The in-

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    creased rates are charged for conveyance by foreign-owned as well as by British-owned ships, and affect particularly those routes by which coal is being carried to the United Kingdom and other routes from which shipping can he most readily diverted to the coal routes. Last spring grain rates were very low, being quoted, for example, at 1s. 6d. per quarter from New York to Liverpool, and by the middle of November the average of the North Atlantic rates was 7s. 9d. per quarter, or rather more than four times the spring average, which had been Is. 11d. The rate on flour from New York to Liverpool increased in the same period, from is. 8d. to 4s. 1d. per sack of 280 lbs. The rate on cotton from New York to Liverpool was in October about 2s. 8½d. per 100 lbs., an increase since the spring of 44 per cent., but by 19th November it had fallen slightly to 2s. 6d.—2s. 8½d.
    On the other hand, liner freights on provisions and measurement goods from New York to Liverpool were not altered till the end of October. I have no later quotations. Freights on wheat from the River Plate increased by about 191 per cent. between the end of April and the middle of November, and those from Australia by about 91 per cent. The average increase per ton of wheat from North America was 27s. 3d. per ton, from the River Plate 32s. per ton, from Australia 24s. 1½d. per ton., and from the Danube 23s. 3d.; the differences are due partly to the length of the route and partly to the demand on shipping space for other purposes than the carriage of wheat. Between April and mid-November or latest date of quotation the rates of freight on maize from the Cape increased by 47 per cent., on timber from Finland by 60 to 71 per cent., on timber from Canada by 27 per cent., on heavy grain from the Plate by 79 per cent., on heavy grain from the North Pacific by 45 per cent., on sugar from Cuba by 105 per cent., on sugar from Mauritius by 25 per cent., on dead-weight cargo from Bombay by 159 per cent., on measurement cargo from Alexandria by 177 per cent., on phosphate from Bona by 119 per cent., and on beans etc., from Dalny and Vladivostok by 14 per cent.
    The rate on oil from the Gulf of Mexico to the United Kingdom remained unaltered at 27s. 6d. per ton
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    till the end of October and then rose to 42s. 6d. on 19th November. It will thus be seen that the increases were quite irregular. The effect of increased freight charges on the final cost of the goods, in making which materials subject to such charges are used, is a complex problem which cannot conveniently be handled within the limits of a Parliamentary answer.

    ARTIFICIAL SILK PRICES.
    Viscount SANDONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give artificial silk prices per pound for good average "A" quality British and imported Continental yarns in June, 1925, before the imposition of the tax and in August, 1926?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: As the statement desired by my hon. Friend includes a number of detailed figures, I will, with the permission of the House, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Viscount SAN DON: May I ask whether the figures do not provide an overwhelming vindication of the fact that under Protection the consumer does not pay the duty?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The figures show that in the two periods in question there has been a reduction in price in the latter as compared with the former period.
    Following is the statement:
    According to information published in "The Silk Journal," the approximate prices of imported Continental artificial silk yarns (First Quality) in June, 1925, were Os. 6d. per lb. for 150 denier, and 5s. 9d. for 250 denier yarns. In August, 1926, good quality "A" viscose yarns were quoted at 5s. 7d. for 150 denier, 5s. 3d. for 200 denier, and 5s. 1d. for 250 denier yarns, while other quotations (good average "A" quality) were Gs. 1d. for 150 denier, and 5s. 8d. for 200 denier yarns.
    With regard to English artificial silk yarns, prices were not given in "The Silk Journal" for June, 1925, or near dates,, but in March, 1926, good average "A" quality yarns were approximately 7s. 3d. per lb. for 150 denier and 6s. 9d. for 200 denier yarns. The corresponding prices in August, 1926, were 6s. 3d. for 150 denier and 5s. 10½d. for 200 denier yarns.

  TROOPSHING "NEURALIA" (CREW).
  Lord APSLEYasked the Secretary of State for War the number of lascars, and their percentage to the rest of the crew, on the troopship sailing from Southampton on 17th September; and how many foreigners were among the stewards and barmen?
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have been asked to reply. Of the crew of the "Neuralia" 186, or 78 per cent. were lascars. None of the European members of the crew was a foreigner; some of the lascar members of the catering department may have been Goanese, but, in the absence of the ship, it is not possible to say how many.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    YEOMANRY (ARMOURED CARS).
    Lord APSLEYasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to say when the obsolete American Peerless armoured car, still on the establishment of Yeomanry armoured car units, will be replaced by a more modern type of British make?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): I regret that I cannot yet say.

    MACHINE-GUN CORPS.
    Viscount SANDONasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will either reform the Machine-gun Corps, if necessary, at the expense of existing units, or equip a certain number of existing battalions as machine-gun units; and, if not, what steps he will take to ensure that there shall be mobile bodies of machine gunners free for detached use in time of war?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: It is not proposed to reform the Machine-gun Corps, but methods of increasing the machine-gun strength of the Army are at present under consideration.

    STATEMENT OF ACCOUNTS (G. LAWME).
    Mr. NEIL MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Private George Lawrie, No. 24578 King's Own Scottish Borderers, received a statement of accounts, dated
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    30th January, 1919, on his discharge from the Army, showing that the sum of £10 10s. had been lodged with the Post Office Savings Bank in his name; that Lawrie mislaid this statement of accounts, and on finding it again wrote the paymaster, who advised him to write the Savings Bank for further information; that this was done, and Lawrie informed that £10 10s. had been paid in in his name on the 30th January, 1910, but this had been cancelled on the 12th February, 1979, by the regimental paymaster; that Lawrie, on communicating this information to the pay office, has been told that nothing further can be done; why this account was cancelled; upon whose authority the paymaster cancelled the account; and when this money will be paid to George Lawrie?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I am having inquiries made, and will cam,. municate with the hon. Member in due course.

    PONTEFRACT BARRACKS (MUNICIPAL ELECTION).
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for 'War why permission was granted for a candidate in the recent municipal elections to enter the barracks at Pontefract; and is it with his approval that soldiers were conveyed from the barracks to the polling booths in cars with non-commissioned officers in charge?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: As regards the first part of the question, no such permission was granted. As regards the second part, three motor cars were allowed in barracks to pick up those who desired to vote. The voters included sergeants, married non-commissioned officers, and a few men. The motor cars were not in charge of non-commissioned officers.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that at least one Tory candidate did make several visits to the barracks; and can he explain whether the motor cars which took these soldiers to vote were cars belonging to the same Tory candidate?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I do not know to whom the cars belonged, but there is nothing objectionable in allowing motor cars to take voters to the poll.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: May I ask whether cars belonging to the Labour party would have been permitted as well?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON - EVANS: Certainly. There is absolutely no distinction between cars belonging to Labour candidates and cars belonging to Tory candidates.

  SCOTLAND.

    ERRIBOF ESTATE (SALE).
    Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIRasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether be has yet received the report of the arbiter for the sheep stock valuations at Erribof; and whether he will lay it and the minute of reference to the arbiter with all accompanying instructions upon the Table of the House?
    The SECRETARY of STATE, for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour):The arbiter's award has not yet been received. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my replies to the questions he addressed to me on Wednesday last.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: Will the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that when this Report is received we shall be allowed to have all the details that concern this estate, which belongs to the nation and for whose administration this House is responsible?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: No, Sir. As I have said, I am prepared to give the information after the award has been made.
    Mr. MACLEAN: As this estate was purchased origiNally for the purpose of small holdings and has been resold by the Government, surely this House is entitled to know the reasons why it was first purchased and then resold, and the price at which this stock was sold?
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: Surely we are entitled to; know the terms on which part of a national estate has been sold?
    Mr. MACLEAN: Has this estate been sold at a reduced price?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have already answered that point, and it is within the knowledge of the House at what price the estate was sold.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the price paid for this estate?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think that was given the other day.

    ARMADALE FARM.
    Sir A. SINCLAIRasked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the Board of Agriculture took over some years ago the sheep stock on the farm of Armadale at a Martinmas valuation; whether any sum and, if so, what sum, and for what number of sheep, was paid to the vendor as compensation for the valuation not being held at 'Whitsunday; and whether any additional sum and, if so, what sum was paid on the same grounds per head of the cost ewes marketed between Whitsunday and the Martinmas of entry?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The answer to the first part of the question in in the affirmative. A sum of £1,000 was paid by the Board of Agriculture to the tenant in full settlement of his claims arising from his agreement to vacate the farm at Martinmas, 1919, instead of Whitsunday, 1921, which was the natural termination of the lease. This payment was a lump sum covering several heads of claim. These included one in respect of a Martinmas in place of a Whitsunday valuation, but the total payment was not apportioned among the several heads. The number of the sheep stock taken over at Martinmas, 1919, was 2,310. In addition to this payment the sum of 10s. per head was fixed by the arbiter as arranged by the Board with the tenant in respect of the acclimatisation value of the 260 cast ewes sold off the farm between Whitsunday and Martinmas, 1919.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: Did not the right hon. Gentleman say, in answer to a question which I asked last week, that he was unable to recall a precedent for a Martinmas valuation, whereas his own Department—not himself—was involved in such a transaction only seven years ago? Will he further say whether the precedent in this case for a special compensation for a Martinmas as opposed to a Whitsunday valuation—compensation such as had to be paid by the Board of Agriculture when they got the estate—will be followed now that the Board of Agriculture are selling the estate?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: As far as my recollection goes, I was answering a supplementary question as to whether I knew—
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: Not a supplementary question.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Well, I did not know of any other case. I have inquired since, and the hon. and gallant Genleman has got his answer now. As regards compensation, it is not solely concerned with the point of whether it was a Martinmas or a Whitsunday valuation.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: Is it not a fact that part of this payment is due to the Martinmas valuation, and is the State receiving any compensation on account of the Martinmas valuation now that it is selling the property?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: As in most business transactions, the sale has to be arranged on the best terms which can be agreed under the circumstances, and the circumstances in each case will vary. I am not at all prepared to say that this is in any way a precedent for any future action.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Does this not show the difficulties which would arise if every farm were nationalised?

  COAL TRADE DISPUTE.

    EMERGENCY DIRECTIONS (LOCAL AUTHORITIES' EXPENSES).
    Mr. MARCHasked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that the administration of the Coal Emergency Directions, 1926, issued from his Department td the Poplar Borough Council has cost the council up to date the sum of £187; and if the Government will reimburse the Poplar Council and other authorities the amount of their expenses in carrying out his Department's directions?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Colonel Lane Fox):Under the Local Authorities (Coal Emergency) Order, 1926, made by the Minister of Health on the 1st May last, local authorities are required to meet these expenses out of the rates, and the Government does not see its way to varying this arrangement.

    HOUSEHOLD COAL (EXPORT PROHIBITION.)
    Captain WALTER SHAWasked the Secretary for Mines if the Government will undertake to continue the prohibition of the export of coal for domestic use until such time as the home consumers are no longer limited as to the quantity that they may purchase, and until such time as the cost to the home consumer is brought down to a reasonable figure?
    Colonel LANE FOX: The Government will certainly bear in mind the considerations mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend, and I agree that inland requirements must be met before exports can be permitted.
    Captain SHAW: May I ask whether the Minister is aware that public opinion holds that people are being charged considerably more than is justified by the circumstances of the case?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a matter for argument.

    PIT-HEAD PRICES.
    Sir W. de FRECEasked the Secretary for Mines if, taking the pit-head price of coal at 50s., he can say how this charge is made up in detail, and give the corresponding detail is for the pit-head price of similar coal in April last?
    Colonel LANE FOX: I regret that the information is not available. In present circumstances, prices are much more affected by short supplies than by production costs. At the same time, the partial returns to work entails wide differences in costs, so that a price which may be very remunerative to a colliery working at. full strength may be insufficient to cover costs at one where only a fraction of the normal output is obtained.
    Sir W. de FRECE: Would it not be possible to obtain this information?
    Colonel LANE FOX: No, Sir; as I tried to explain, the circumstances vary with every colliery.
    Mr. HARDIE: Will the hon. Gentleman say how it is, when control is being exercised by the Mines Department., that the scarcity of coal should raise the prices, and why that should be included as a cost of production?
    Colonel LANE FOX: I think the hon. Member must find his own answer to that question.
    Mr. HARDIE: I never put questions in this House to find my own answer. I put the question to the Secretary for Mines in the hope that with all his years of experience he might have reached that stage of being able—
    Mr. SPEAKER: Mr. Everard.

    MANUFACTURERS' SUPPLIES (CONSIGNMENT INSTRUCTIONS).
    Mr. REMERasked the Secretary for Mines how many tons of coal are at the present time lying idle in trucks waiting consignment instructions; and how many tons have been so lying for over one week?
    Colonel LANE FOX: I regret that definite information is not available, but I believe that the amount is comparatively small. It would be most laborious to obtain fuller particulars, and, by the time they were obtained, they would be useless, for the position obviously changes from day to day.
    Mr. REMER: Is my right hon. Friend aware that great dissatisfaction is felt among manufacturers that they cannot obtain coal to a very large amount, owing to the fact that his Department has not given instructions?
    Colonel LANE FOX: I think the position is not quite as my hon. Friend describes. I hope that in the course of the next few days it will materially change.
    Mr. REMER: Will my right hon. Friend consider relaxing the instructions as to the delivery of coal to manufacturing concerns, in order to relieve unemployment?
    Colonel LANE FOX: Yes, Sir; I am hoping to make a statement on this subject to-morrow on a Private Notice question which I understand is going to be asked:

  TRANSPORT.

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES' QUARRIES.
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Minister of Transport the names of those local authorities who work their own quarries
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    to produce the material for the repair and reconstruction of the roads under their control; and whether those employed in those quarries are paid on the same scale of wages as the employés of other quarry undertakings under the joint industrial councils?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley):No records are available in my Department showing what local authorities work quarries for the purposes of highway construction and maintenance.

    STEAM LORRIES.
    Sir FRANK MEYERasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the inconvenience to the public and the danger to traffic of the clouds of steam and showers of sparks that frequently issue from steam lorries; and whether he will take steps to deal with this nuisance?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The matters referred to are under consideration in connection with the Bill dealing with the regulation of road vehicles generally, which I hope will be presented to the House at no distant date.
    Colonel DAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether restrictions will be placed upon these vehicles going into the West-End in the day time?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The hon. Member had better wait and see.
    Mr. R. MORRISON: As the right hon. Gentleman has been promising this Bill "at no distant date" for two years, can he tell us whether we are getting any nearer to it?
    Colonel ASHLEY: It approaches nearer and nearer.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Have the Government no authority at the present moment to prevent this nuisance in the streets of London and other towns?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I do not agree that there is no authority.
    Mr. B. SMITH: Is it not correct to say there are Regulations dealing with the emission of smoke and steam from steam vehicles; if so, when will they be operated?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I think that is a matter for the local authorities, and not the Minister of Transport.
    Mr. HARDIE: In order to prevent people from using that form of power, is it not necessary to tell them where to get fuel that does not give out sparks and Smoke?

    NEW ROADS (EXPENDITURE).
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Minister of Transport if he can inform the House of the amount that has been spent on the creation of now roads during the past 12 months; what the additional mileage has been; and whether he can give any outline of the activities in this direction which his Department is desirous of completing during the forthcoming year?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The grants from the Road Fund towards the cost of constructing new roads reached a total approximately £955,000 during 1925–26, and grants to an amount of roughly £850,000 have been made towards the same purpose since the 1st April last, apart from a grant towards the current expenditure on constructing the Mersey Tunnel. I have not called for a special return from local authorities giving the figures asked for by my hon. Friend and they would take some time to ascertain. As regards the last part of the question, my hon. Friend will appreciate that the decision regarding the initiation of additional works lies very largely within the discretion of the different local authorities throughout the Kingdom, whose policy I am unable to forecast.

    ROAD VEHICLES BILL.
    Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWNasked the Minister of Transport whether, in order to avoid the confusion and difficulties that now exist in ascertaining what the laws really are for mechanically propelled vehicles, he will have the laws codified and incorporated in one Act or embody all those sections of Acts relating to mechanically propelled vehicles in one Act?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I hope to have the opportunity of introducing before long a. Bill with the object of amending, and to a large extent consolidating, the law relating to road vehicles, and at the same time of repealing a number of the older enactments.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    GENERAL MESSING SYSTEM.
    Major Sir BERTRAM FALLEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty which of His Majesty's ships afloat have the general messing system in force; whether a naval cookery officer is borne in each ship; and who is responsible for the general messing?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Bridgeman): General messing is in force in 21 ships, of which I will send my hon. Friend details, if he desires. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative, and as regards the last part, the Accountant Officer is responsible.
    Sir B. FALLEalso asked the Parliamentary Secretary whether he is aware that the paucity in promotion to warrant rank of chief petty officer cooks is caused the age limit for retirement of warrant instructors of cookery remaining at 55 years; and what are the reasons for differentiating in the retiring age between the various classes of naval and marine warrant officers?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Provision has already been made by Admiralty Fleet Order 3034 of 1923 for the reduction of the age of retirement of warrant officers of the cookery branch and other branches not affected by the retirement scheme of 1922, the change being made gradually so as to minimise as tar as possible any hardship to officers a ready promoted to warrant rank before the 1st July, 1923. The last part of the question does not, therefore, arise.

  RUSSIA (CHERVONETZ NOTES).
  Sir A. KNOXasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he proposes to take in view of the fact that the Soviet Government has instructed its banks not to accept Chervonetz notes from correspondents abroad?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson): I am making inquiries, but am not vet in possession of the full facts. It would, therefore, be premature to consider what steps, if any it would be proper to take in the matter.
  Sir A. KNOX: Does this not prove that the Soviet Government is as ready to repudiate its own liabilities as it has been in the past to repudiate those of the Imperial Government?
  Mr. THURTLE: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is quite certain that the Russian Government has so instructed its banks?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I think the hon. Gentleman has already stated in his answer that he has no information on this point.
  Mr. THURTLE: The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite—
  Mr. SPEAKER: Sometimes hon. Members have information in advance of the government:

  WALSINGHAM INSTITUTION (CHILDREN).
  Colonel DAYasked the Minister of Health what action has been taken by the Walsingham, Norfolk, Board of Guardians, following the visit of Inspector Bushell, to segregate children from mental defectives?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood):All children over three years of age have now been removed from this institution; the only mentally deficient persons associating with the children in the institution are the mothers of those children.
  Colonel DAY: Is it not a fact that the inspector stated that some of the children had to sleep with mental defectives?
  Sir K. WOOD: I do not know, but the hon. Gentleman will see the steps that have already been taken.

  SMALL-POX.
  Mr. LANSBURYasked the Minister of Health whether the two cases of smallpox recently imported from Paris were vaccinated; how long these persons were receiving medical treatment in London before it was discovered they were suffering from small-pox; and will he state whether any explanation can be given for delay in diagnosing the disease?
  Sir K. WOOD: My right hon. Friend is not sure as to the cases which the hon. Member has in mind. So far as my right hon. Friend is aware, no persons actually suffering from small-pox have arrived recently in this country from Paris, but if the hon. Member will give further particulars of the cases to which he refers, my right hon. Friend will be happy to give such information as is available.

  NECESSITOUS AREAS (GRANTS).
  Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Prime Minister how soon the Government propose to introduce legislation providing for a system of block grants for rating purposes so as to afford some measure of relief to necessitous areas?
  Sir K. WOOD: I have been asked to reply, and I would refer the hon. Member to the observations of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health on this matter on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill.
  Mr. THOMSON: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say on what date these proposals are likely to be introduced?
  Sir K. WOOD: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend dealt with that question when he replied, and I think the hon. Member had then left the House.
  Mr. THOMSON: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the right hon. Gentleman did not give any date at all, and meantime is nothing to be done for these necessitous areas?
  Sir K. WOOD: My right hon. Friend explained that the matters to which he refers were not only necessitous areas, and he stated that he was not then in a position to give an indication as to the date.

  CHINA (WANHSIEN INCIDENT).
  Mr. TREVELYANasked the Prime Minister whether the instructions to use force at Wanhsien were issued by the Admiralty or by the Foreign Office; and whether His Majesty's Minister at Peking was consulted?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: The instructions to use force as a last resource

  211
  were approved by His Majesty's Government and issued simultaneously by the Foreign Office to His Majesty's Minister at Peking and by the Admiralty to the Commander-in-Chief, China. His Majesty's Government were in touch and complete agreement with Sir R. Macleay.

  BETTING DUTY.
  Sir F. MEYERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of licences and entry certificates in respect of premises issued to bookmakers in connection with the Betting Duty up to the latest date for which figures are available?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Ronald McNeill): As the hon. Member for Central Southwark was informed on the 18th November, the number of bookmakers' certificates issued up to the 13th November was 9,837. The corresponding number of entry certificates was 6,037.
  Sir W. de FRECEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is making special arrangements to watch the effect of the new Betting Duty proposals on racing and racecourse prosperity with the object of taking the facts into consideration at the start of the next financial year?
  Mr. McNEILL: I can assure my hon. Friend that, as in the case of all new duties, the effect of the Betting Duty is being carefully watched in all its aspects.
  Sir W. de FRECE: Is the Financial Secretary aware that the receipts have greatly fallen since the operation of the tax?
  Mr. McNEILL: If that be so, it would bear out the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the reduction of betting.
  Colonel DAY: Is the Betting Duty bringing in the amount of money which the Treasury expected it would bring in when the tax was put on?
  Mr. McNEILL: I do not think we formed any estimate for a limited number of weeks.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (ECONOMIES).
  Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what economies he has effected in the administration of his Department during this year?
  Mr. MORRISasked the President of the Board of Trade what economies he has effected in the administration of his Department during this year?
  Mr. LIVINGSTONEasked the Secretary of State for War what economies he has effected in the administration of his Department during this year?
  Mr. McNEILL: I have been asked to reply to these questions. I would refer the hon. Members to the answer which I gave on the 18th November, in reply to similar questions asked in regard to other Departments.
  Mr. THOMSON: Seeing that the Government are unable to specify any economies, are we to understand that none has been made?
  Mr. McNEILL: The hon. Member is quite mistaken in saying that we are unable to specify them.
  Mr. THOMSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman specify them?

  IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM.
  Viscount SANDONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make any provision for housing the remaining War Museum relics, in view of the report of the Imperial War Museum authorities as to deterioration of stored pieces?
  Mr. McNEILL: I understand that certain additional accommodation has now been provided for the Imperial War Museum, and I trust that this will relieve the worst of the pressure.
  Mr. ATTLEE: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there are human war relics more urgent in need of housing than the War Museum relics?

  EMERGENCY POWERS ACT, 19201 (PROCLAMATION).
  At the end of Questions—
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks)(standing at the Bar of the House: A Message from the King, signed by his own hand.
  Mr. SPEAKER read the Royal Message (all the Members of the House being uncovered), and it was as followeth:
  The continued cessation of work in coal mines on the 20th day of November, 1926, having constituted, in the opinion of His Majesty, a state of emergency within the meaning of the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, His Majesty has deemed it proper, by Proclamation made in pursuance of the said Act, and dated the 20th day of November, 1926, to declare that a state of emergency exists.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. SNOWDEN: May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, in the event of the proceedings on the Merchandise Marks Bill being completed by to-morrow evening, what business it is intended to take on Thursday?
The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Commander Eyres Monsell):On Thursday, we hope to take
the Report and Third Reading of the Rating (Scotland) Bill, the Second Reading of the Prisons (Scotland) Bill, and other small Orders on the Paper.
On Friday, the Motion to continue the Regulations made under the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, and, if time permit other Orders.
Mr. SNOWDEN: May I ask the Home Secretary whether it is intended to renew the Emergency Regulations in the form in which they have been previously in force?
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As at present advised, I hope this afternoon to lay the Regulations on the Table of the House. They will be in the original form. If, however, I am able, before Friday, to assure myself that any of these Regluations will not be necessary, I hope to put the Resolution in such a form as will enable them to be omitted. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will understand that it is impossible for me to say more than that at the present moment.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on the Merchandise Marks (Imported Goods) Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]
The House divided: Ayes. 196;Noes, 78.

Division No. 479.]

AYES.

[3.24 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T

Bullock, Captain M.

England, Colonel A.

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Erskine, Lord (Somerset Weston-s.-M.)

Albery, Irving James

Burman, J. B.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Apsley, Lord

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Fade, Sir Bertram G.

Astor, Viscountess

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Fermoy, Lord

Atholl, Duchess of

Campbell, E. T.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Fraser, Captain Ian

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Chapman, Sir S.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Christie, J. A

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Bennett, A. J.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Berry, Sir George

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Gates, Percy

Betterton, Henry B.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Cowan, Sir Win. Henry (Islington, N.)

Goff, Sir Park

Boothby, R. J. G.

Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Grace, John

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Crooke, J. Smediey (Deritend)

Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb' ld., N.)

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. vv.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Braithwaite, A. N.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's', w, E)

Brass, Captain W.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Cilve

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Grotrian. H. Brent

Briggs, J. Harold

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Briscoe, Richard George

Dawson, Sir Philip

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Drewe, C.

Hall, vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Hanbury, C.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Harrison, G. J. C.

McLean, Major A.

Savery, S, S.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Macmillan, Captain H.

Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Haslam, Henry C,

Mac Robert, Alexander M.

Shepperson, E. W.

Hawke, John Anthony

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Skelton, A. N.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Smithers, Waldron

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxt'd, Henley)

Malone, Major P. B.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Margesson, Captain D.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Hoars Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will' sden, E.)

Holland, Sir Arthur

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Stanley, Lord (Fyide)

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr)

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Murchison, C. K.

Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Huntingfield, Lord

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Hurd, Percy A.

Nuttall, Ellis

Tinne, J. A.

Hutchison,G.A.Clark (Mldl'n&P'bl's)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Jephcott, A. R.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K, P.

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Waddington, R.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Wallace, Captain D. E.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Radford, E. A.

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Knox, Sir Alfred

Raine, W.

Watts, Dr. T.

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Remer. J. R.

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Remnant, Sir James

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Locker-Lampson. G. (Wood Green)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Williams, C. p. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw' th)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Loder, J. de V.

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretlord)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Looker, Herbert William

Ropner, Major L.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Worthington-Evans, Ht. Hon. Sir L.

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Sandon, Lord

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Major Hennessy and Major Cope.

NOES.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Harris, Percy A.

Riley, Ben

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hayday, Arthur

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R.,Eiland)

Baker, Walter

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Rose, Frank H.

Barnes, A.

Hirst, G. H.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Barr, I

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Batey, Joseph

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Stamford, T. W.

Charleton, H. C.

Jones, T. I, Mardy (Pontypridd)

Sullivan, J.

Cluse, W. S.

Kelly, W. T.

Thomson. Trevelyan (Mlddlesbro. W.)

Compton, Joseph

Kennedy, T.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Connolly, M.

Lansbury, George

Thurtle, Ernest

Cove, W. G.

Lawrence, Susan

Townend, A. E.

Cowan, O. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lawson, John James

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lee, F.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lunn, William

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Day, Colonel Harry

MacLaren, Andrew

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Dennison, R.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Westwood, J.

Edwards, C- (Monmouth, Bedweilty)

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Whiteley, W.

Gibbins, Joseph

March, S.

Wiggins, William Martin

Gillett, George M.

Montague, Frederick

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Naylor, T. E.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Greenall, D. R, (Giamorgan)

Owen, Major G.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Grundy, T. W.

Palin. John Henry

Windsor, Walter

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Paling, W.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Potts, John S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hardie, George D.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Mr. Hayes and Mr. B. Smith.

QUESTION OF ORDER.
Mr. H. WILLIAMS: May I ask you, Sir, whether it is in order for an hon. Member of this House to threaten another? I asked a supplementary question, to which the hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. B. Smith) took exception. and because I asked that question he subsequently addressed remarks to me which indicated threats of a personal character.
Mr. SPEAKERIt is certainly not in order. I know the hon. Member for Rotherhithe well enough to know that, if he made any such remark, it must have been of a chaffing nature.

SMALL HOLDINGS AND ALLOTMENTS BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee C.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 193.]

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE C.
  Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee C: Major Edmondson and Sir Sydney Henn; and had appointed in substitution: Major Elliot and Mr. Solicitor-General for Scotland.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  MERCHANDISE MARKS (IMPORTED GOODS) BILL.
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed [22nd November] on Consideration of the Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee).
  MERCHANDISE MARKS (IMPORTED GOODS) BILL.

    CLAUSE 2.—(Power to require indication of origin in, the case of certain imported goods.)
    Which Amendment was: In page 4, line 6, at the end, to insert the words
    "(5) This Section shall not apply to goods imported for the purpose of forming part of or for use with other manufactured goods, or for the purposes of replacement, repair, or maintenance, and winch goods so imported are—

    (a) of so small a size as to render marking impracticable; or

    (b) of such a nature that marking would impair their efficiency; or

    (c) of such a nature that it would not be practically possible to apply either at all or effectively an indication of origin."—[Mr. R. Morrison.]

    Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    Mr. BARNES: This Amendment raises the question whether these Committees are to have full power of settling these matters without any direction from the House. We feel that it would be a distinct advantage for Parliament to indicate at least one or two guiding rules which should govern their deliberations. Obviously, there will be many categories of goods, which may involve considerable time and considerable expense in bringing various interests together to submit their case for and against. We all realise that when any particular proposal of this description is advanced, a variety of interests are affected which would wish their particular claims to be considered. That means bringing experts and representatives, involving a good deal of cost, to the Departmental Committee to submit their evidence, and possibly when all this procedure and machinery has been gone through eventually some technical difficulty may make it entirely unnecessary So the purpose of this Amendment is to lay down certain governing rules with regard to various categories of goods, which we feel will save a good deal of expense and a good
    232
    deal of the time of the Committee. The Amendment is self-explanatory. It covers a large range of articles which are necessary for the purposes of replacement, repairs, and maintenance, and not only does it first of all limit the consideration of the Amendment to these classes of goods, but it inserts other provisos which make the Amendment additioNaily reasonable. It does not even ask that replacements or parts of machines or toofs necessary for repairs shall be excluded unless there are other definite disadvantages also, and it proceeds under the heading of (a), (b) and (c) to further make clear the purpose of the Amendment.
    Under paragraph (a) an item of replacement or a piece of machinery that represents a replacement or a repair or a maintenance part must not only be in that category, but it must be of so small a size as to render marking impracticable. Surely it would be far better for these committees, before they proceed to decide whether a certain class of goods or articles or parts comes under the provision of this Bill, that a simple governing rule of that description should be first considered by the committee. If these articles are too small to be marked, all the committee has to do is to consider that one thing first of all before they involve the time of various persons and incur the expense that long investigations involve. Then with regard to paragraph (b), these items must be of such a nature that marking will impair their efficiency. That again, I think, is an obviously sensible provision to insert in the Bill. Marking is of no use either to the consumer, or I would say now—as the obvious purpose of the Bill is primarily in the interest of the producer, as explained by the advocates of the Bill opposite—to the producer, if it impairs the efficiency of the commodity. The third point is that these items should not be marked if they are of such a nature that it would not be practically possible to apply effectively an indication of origin. There are three governing rules which we desire to insert, believing that. before any article or commodity was considered by the committee they should first of all investigate whether this particular article came under either or alp of these governing regulations, and of course if they did the article is immediately removed from the

    233
    scope of the provisions of the Bill. It will save a lot of time and will indicate the intention of Parliament that we desire certain governing regulations to be observed. We believe the Bill will be improved, at least to some extent, if the Amendment is adopted, and I commend it to the consideration of the Parliamentary Secretary.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Are we to have no reply from the Parliamentary Secretary?
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 87; Noes, 205.

    Division No. 480.]

    AYES.

    [3.42 p.m.

    Adamson, w. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Harris, Percy A.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hayday, Arthur

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Baker, Walter

    Hirst, G. H.

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Barnes, A.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Barr, J.

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Batey, Joseph

    Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merionsth)

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Kelly, W. T

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton), E.)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kennedy, T.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Compton, Joseph

    Lansbury, George

    Townend, A. E.

    Connolly, M.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Cove, W. G.

    Lawson, John James

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lee, F.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lunn, William

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Westwood, J.

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Dennison, R.

    MacNeill-Welr, L.

    Whiteley, W.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    March, S.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    England, Colonel A.

    Montague, Frederick

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gillett, George M.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Paling, W.

    Windsor, Walter

    Groves, T.

    Potts, John S.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Riley, Ben

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Mr. Hayes and Mr. B. Smith.

    Hardie, George D.

    Rose, Frank H.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Burman, J. B.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Albery, Irving James

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Faile, Sir Bertram G.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Fermoy, Lord

    Apsley, Lord

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Astor, Viscountess

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H

    Christie, J. A.

    Gates, Percy

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Goff, Sir Park

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Grace, John

    Bennett, A. J.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Berry, Sir George

    Cope, Major William

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn, N.)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R,, Skipton)

    Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil)

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Brass, Captain W.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Hanbury, C.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Drewe, C.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Elveden, Viscount

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Mayer, Sir Frank

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Mitchell, S. {Lanark, Lanark)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Monsall, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, c.)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Murchison, C. K.

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Hudson, R. s. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden,E.)

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Hutchison, G. A. C.(Midl'n & Peebles)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Jephcott, A. R,

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

    Penny, Frederick George

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Tinne, J. A.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Kinloc-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Waddington, R.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Radford, E. A.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Raine, W.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Looker, Herbert William

    Remer, J. R.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Remnant, Sir James

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    McLean, Major A.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Womersley, W. J.

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald Jo.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel-

    Sandon, Lord

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Savery, S. S.

    Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Lord Stanley.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Burton Chadwick): I beg to move, in page 4, line 7, to leave out Sub-section (5),
    We propose to delete this Sub-section because of the very much wider scope the Bill has assumed in its passage through Committee. This Sub-section provides that
    "If on inquiry … it appears to a committee that imported goods of any class or description to be used in the United Kingdom ought not to be sold unless distinguished from similar goods manufactured or produced in the United Kingdom or in other parts of His Majesty's Dominions but that, by reason of the nature of the goods it is not practically possible to apply either at all or effectively an indication of origin to these goods, …"
    Then, if the Committee reports that the case ought to be dealt with, an Order in Council may be issued providing that such imported goods shall not be sold or exposed for sale in the United Kingdom unless they are
    "distinguished … by some form of distinctive colouring or other variation in their make-up."
    Owing to the fact that the Bill did not give power requiring marking on importation, it seemed to be desirable that there should be some other method of marking, and this form of colouration
    236
    suggested itself. It is more particularly applicable to heavy articles, such as articles in the steel trade, large bundles or iron rods, and so forth, where in the rough handling through which they pass in transit a mark applied after importation, which might have to be attached, might easily be removed. That was one of the reasons why we introduced this colouration provision. We thought that by colouration we might avoid that danger. It will be obvious to the House that marking at the time of manufacture can be more easily applied in the case of these heavy steel trades than in most of the trades which will come within the scope of the Bill. There were difficulties about the Clause in Committee, because in certain respects it might have been extended to foodstuffs, and all sorts of questions were raised as to what sort of foodstuffs should be marked, and where they should be marked. Since this marking has been extended, this seems to be no longer necessary. As a matter of fact, I sholdu think it is as easy, if not easier, to mark an iron girder with letters in accordance with the provisions of the Bill than it is to mark by colouration, and that would apply to almost all the articles in these heavy steel trades. Further, it would be a very difficult matter to amend the Clause as it stands

    237
    in order to comply with the Bill, as the Clause as it stands would not apply to marking on importation, and would have to be amended. Also, the Bill would have to be amended to bring it into line with other alterations which have been made in the Bill.
    Mr. WEBB: This Clause was maintained by the Government throughout the long proceedings of the Committee in spite of all arguments to the contrary, and during the whole of those proceedings my memory does not bear any impression as to the extent of the difficulties which the Government now discover. The Government put forward this Clause, in the first instance, without any reference to the question of marking On importation. There is no reference in the Clause, as origiNally drafted, as to whether there was to be any marking on importation or otherwise, and during the discussions in Committee it was repeatedly pointed out that the Clause as drafted would apply whether there was a requirement for marking on importation or no such requirement. I do not remember that the hon. Gentleman who has just given the explanation, or the right hon. Gentleman who took charge of the proceedings in Committee, ever suggested that this Clause had become inapplicable now that the power had been given to mark on importation any goods whatsoever. So much so, that when some of us put down an Amendment on the Report stage to re-insert in this Clause the words, "being foodstuffs," in order that it should be confined to foodstuffs, to which it had origiNally been confined, there was no suggestion made that the intention had always been to let it relate only to other things, such as iron bars, and so forth, which it now appears can be satisfactorily marked, though the Government did not suppose they could be satisfactorily marked.
    However, what is interesting to note is that this is a Sub-section on which a large number of representatives of what is called the agricultural interest placed great hopes of an effective marking to distinguish the foreign or the colonial eggs from the British eggs. Now I should like to ask whether the Union Jack mark on the eggs is to be reserved for the British produced egg, and whether we are to be deprived of the rainbow variety of eggs altogether? It seems to me that the Bill will have certain consequences,
    238
    and that those consequences will not be so much in the regions of economics or commerce, as in the region of politics, or, perhaps, I might better say, in the region of electioneering. It may be that at a farmers' meeting an hon. Member opposite may say that a valuable Act has been passed, but, probably, the hon. Member will not go on to explain that all the provisions as regards the colouration of things that come into this country in order that they may be distinguished in an indelible fashion from things made in this country, is to be given up, and not only the distinctive colouring, but also the requirement of some distinguishing shape or make-up is to be given up. All that goes by board.
    4.0 p.m.
    The hon. Gentleman has not explained the difficulty of the distinction in the make-up. I think it is ridiculous to insist on such a distinction, but this proposal, as I say, formed part of the policy of the Government, and part of the expert advice given to the Board of Trade, and a strong case was made out for it. I do not know how many hours we spent on Clause 5. At any rate, it was maintained with all the strength of the Government majority, and, in so far as numbers indicate wisdom, the proceedings of the Committee would lead readers to suppose, if there are any readers of the proceedings, that the wisdom and effectiveness of this Clause had been thoroughly demonstrated. Now we are told that it is only a matter relating to iron rods and things of that sort which can effectively be required to be marked before importation. I think, if the hon. Gentleman will look back to his former brief, he will find that the argument had a very much wider scope than that, that there were some goods which could not possibly be marked effectively, and it was for those goods that these means were proposed of a particular colouring of a distinguishable nature. That has all gone by the board, and another large range of goods is to escape this barrier, which it is proposed to put up against the ruinous flood of goods from abroad, which seem to have impressed, if not His Majesty's Government, at any rate a large number of their supporters. I do put it to the House that we ought to be told how the unfortunate agriculturist, on the one hand, and the unfortunate manufacturer on

    239
    the other hand, are going to be protected in this way against those goods which it is not practicable to mark. It will be noticed that the Clause, as drafted, refers to things of a description to which
    "it is not practically possible to apply either at all or effectively an indication of origin."
    It is not a question whether they are to be marked before importation or not. The Sub-section applies to all those goods to which it is not possible to apply at all or effectively an indication of origin. There are some goods which can be marked effectively in the process of manufacture or before importation, and these may be required to be so marked, but that still leaves all this class of goods which cannot he effectively marked, either before importation or after. A number of cases have been indicated. One case quoted last night was that of a toothpick. It is not practicable, either before or after importation, to mark effectively a toothpick or a lady's hairpin, if there are any lady's hairpins used now. There are other articles, I will not say of greater importance, but of greater variety and, perhaps, more serious than those to which I have alluded. These are all to be abandoned and British traders are to be subjected to a ruthless flood of foreign competition. The unfortunate agriculturist equally has a large number of articles which cannot be effectively marked. There are, for instance, the currant and the harmless blackberry. It would tax the ingenuity of the Minister of Agriculture effectively to mark them, even if he could mark them at all. It was expressly in order to meet goods of that clans that this Sub-section formed part of the policy of the Government, not merely at the time of the drafting of the Bill but during the long proceedings in Committee.
    I confess that I have some feeling of dissatisfaction, having sat day after day discussing this Sub-section in Committee when all the time the Government knew that they were going to throw it to the wofves, or at any rate if they did not know then their conversion is more tardy and less explicable and less excusable because it can only have been after the proceedings in Committee that the Government
    240
    have come to the conclusion that this Subsection either was not required or was not workable. If those considerations weigh with the Government, I can only say that I wish they would extend these considerations to other Clauses of the Bill. I cannot help thinking that there are a good many other provisions and Clauses in the Bill which cannot be carried out at all, or, if possible to be carried out, cannot be effectively carried out, or which are not required, excepting always for such purposes as I ought not to allude to in any more distinct way than to say that they are for platform purposes. I do not propose to divide against the suggestion of leaving out the Sub-section, because, after all, it is not wise that we should have any more of these bogus Clauses than are necessary; but I do suggest that the House has a right to be dissatisfied, and especially the followers of the right hon. Gentleman, that, having been offered this long Subsection occupying nearly half a page, which purports to be important, and having had it maintained day after day in Committee, it should now at this last hour be thrown over as being either entirely unnecessary or ineffective and impracticable.
    Mr. HARRIS: I am very glad that the President of the Board of Trade has now come into the House. We had, as we always have, an interesting statement from the Parliamentary Secretary, who gave us an explanation of the reasons why this Clause should be left out. We should like to know why it ever appeared in the Bill, and why it was thought necessary to insert these words. We criticised them very closely in Committee, but with very little success. I suppose, in order to convince the right hon. Gentleman, he must have two or three months to think things over. I suppose he has had some expert, practical knowledge from people in trade and industry, and has been convinced that he has introduced a very bad Bill, because on the Report stage most of the Amendments materially altering the Bill have been from the right hon. Gentleman himself. I have no doubt that if we carried on the Report stage for a few days longer some other Clauses would disappear. At any rate, if it were delayed to the next Session of Parliament it would be a very different Bill that the right hon. Gentleman would introduce.

    241
    I notice that most of the right hon. Gentleman's supporters in Committee, with one notable exception, who were so keen and enthusiastic about these colouring words, are conspicuous by their absence. I see that his supporter the expert on eggs and pigs is here. I do not know what he will have to say about the disappearance of this colouring matter which would save people from eating Danish butter when they thought they were eating English butter. We had agricultural experts in Committee explaining to us that it would do no harm, but would be an advantage that the butter from different countries should have different colourings. We are now told that these things are not necessary. I do not want to waste the time of the House. I am the last person to do that. Parliamentary time is very valuable, and I would not have intervened as we have got. our way if I did not want some assurance from the Minister himself in the interests of traders and business people of the country. The Parliamentary Secretary said these words were not necessary because of the enlargement of the Bill. I do not think that is an unfair interpretation of his statement. That) seems to me to indicate that it will be still possible, through the machinery of a Committee, for colouring to be insisted upon and required. If that be so, I would rather have the words in an Act of Parliament than leave it to the discretion of a Committee. Might I point out that traders and those connected with the agricultural interest who are endeavouring to protect the British farmer and manufacturer by having some distinguishing mark should see that these words are included in the Bill. Those who, on the contrary, believe that they are opposed to the interests of manufacturers and farmers should see that they are deleted. Sub-section (5) says:
    "Where it is not practically possible to apply at all, or effectively, an indication of origin of goods, then the Committee may require some form of distinctive colouring or other variation in their make-up."
    Am I to understand that now the Committee will not be able to require some form of distinctive colouring or other variation in make-up, or, if we leave out these words, will it mean they will not be allowed to require these articles
    242
    to be coloured purple, red, yellow or green according to their country of origin?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): If the hon. Member will read the Bill, he will see that "indication of origin" is defined in Clause 3, and that the words to be used are either "foreign manufacture or produce" or "Empire manufacture or produce." It might be possible for the Committee to say that the word "foreign" should be in coloured letters. I do not, think it would be probable, but it would not be possible for the Committee to order the articles to be coloured.
    Mr. HARRIS: Then we have gained something, and our efforts have not been in vain. We are going to protect the consumer. That shows that we were usefully employed in Committee upstairs in spite of the fact that we were closured over and over again, and it also shows that, we knew more than the President of the Board of Trade. This inspires us to go on with his education.
    Mr. R. MORRISON: It is encouraging to us that there are more Government supporters here to-day, but it is particularly unfortunate that, being here, they should be met almost at the outset with a disappointing speech from the Parliamentary Secretary, announcing that the Government have abandoned half-a-page of the Bill. We have had this Sub-section for a long time in the Bill. It has been there during the Second Reading and all through the Committee stage, where it was fought line by line, and where hon. Members opposite repeatedly, in Divisions, supported the Government because they thought it was something good. Now this afternoon they have the disappointment of being told that, after all the fight which they put up in order to retain this Sub-section, the Government intend to throw them overboard and that they do not want the Sub-section; it does not appear to be practicable and, even if it were, there is no necessity for it. It seems to me that hon. Members opposite, who have been hungering during yesterday and to-day for some opportunity when they could rouse themselves into enthusiasm as to the possibilities of this Measure and when they could picture the benefits to the country

    243
    that would accrue when it becomes an Act of Parliament, have not been very fairly treated 'by the Government. It seems to me to be an absolute confession of failure, and, if the Government would consent to postpone the whole Bill for a couple of months, I think they would then come forward and frankly propose to delete a good many more Sub-sections. I only hope that they will take that opportunity. There has never during the time that I have been a Member of this House been a Bill which has undergone so many changes and which has been so chopped and changed about in Committee as this Bill, and now here we are almost at the final stage and lumps of it are being taken out and thrown overboard and new pieces put in. It seems to me that even if the Government know what they hope to carry out they have not the haziest notion how to do it.
    Mr. HARDIE: I suggest that the Government should take the Bill back for reconstruction, and reconstruction does not mean lopping off different parts but taking away the parts that are rotten and putting in fresh parts. The Parliamentary Secretary, strangely enough, left out the whole mass of the subject, and came to one item called steel. He left out of consideration all the other things that require marking just as much as steel. When it came to a question of marking steel we were told that we were getting away from the idea of colouration. I would say that the marking of steel would be most difficult, not the operation itself, but the retaining of that mark upon a steel pin as mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary. Supposing you have on that steel pin in raised letters "foreign produced," or suppose they are cut out, counter-sunk, or indented. Anyone skilled in the handling of an oxyhydrogen smelting blow-lamp can simply wipe out your raised letters on the steel pin or fill in where it has been cut out, and a run with an ordinary hand file will leave that steel pin in a state where no expert can say whether at any time or not there has been letters either raised or indented upon that pin. What is the use of men trying to pose in this House as being serious on a subject like this when anyone can, as I am doing now, expose the whole fallacy of the thing, The whole of the Parliamentary Secre-
    244
    tary's speech was based upon the steel having this mark. He did not seem to understand that it was the most vulnerable thing of all, in connection with the marking of articles. There is n thing that you cannot do with a steel beam, when it comes to a question of heating or melting, with the implements that we have available to-day. In the old days it was necessary to put the whole bean' into a furnace. To-day there are portable instruments which will generate much more heat than the ordinary big furnace. There is, therefore, no protection, because the beam that comes in at the cheaper rate with "Foreign" marked on it, will have that mark wiped out and will be sold at a higher rate as what is called the home-produced article. Suppose that you have an article used in steel called mofybdenum. Why did the Parliamentary Secretary not tell us how he will proceed in marking things like that?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Because he would have been quite out of Order in making such an observation.
    Mr. HARDIE: I am glad that the President of the Board of Trade is here to protect his colleague somewhat, but that is no answer to the question I have put. It might suffice in an ordinary debating society, but I presume that we are here on serious business. In any case it is Mr. Speaker who decides on questions of Order and not the President of the Board of Trade. What are to be the means used for dealing with other things besides steel? The President of the Board of Trade comes in and says, "Turn to Clause 9, page 11, and there you get the indication of origin, 'foreign produce.'" Yes, but how is he going to retain that mark? The Government have not put forward a single argument to show that any mark which can he put on can be retained until the consumer is satisfied as to what he is buying. Therefore, why not scrap the whole Bill?
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 4, line 38, after the word "apply," to insert the words "an indication of origin."
    This is a drafting Amendment consequential upon one which has already been made.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The next three Amendments in my name are also consequential.
    Mr. BARNES: Are we not taking the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker)?
    Mr. SPEAKER: No. I did not propose to select that Amendment, which has been covered by the discussions we have had already. I propose to select later the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris).
    Mr. BARNES: The Amendment of the hon. Member for Leigh deals exclusively with the disfiguring of an article so as to affect its sale.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think that has been dealt with in a previous Amendment.
    Mr. BARNES: The previous Amendment covered the replacement of parts of a larger article. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Leigh deals with a complete article that may be sold by itself on the market.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: On that point of Order, There was an Amendment before us yesterday which raised the whole issue of marking in such a way as injuriously to affect an article. What we have already assented to provided that the marking must be in such a way as to be practical, and so as not to injure.
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is so.
    Further Amendments made: In page 4, leave out from the word "goods" in line 39, to the word "with" in line 40.
    Leave out from the word "origin" in line 44, to the word "recommend" in line 45.
    In page 5, line 2, leave out from the first word "goods" to the end of the Sub-section.—[Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister.]
    Mr. HARRIS: I beg to move, in page 5, line 4, at the end, to insert the words
    "() A committee may and shall if so required by any persons representing interests substantially affected report as to what provision should be made under which imported goods of a perishable nature not marked or distinguished in accordance with an Order in Council may be landed, unshipped, or transhipped, including provisions (if the committee think fit) for the consignee entering into bond with one sufli-
    246
    cient surety in such sum as the committee may recommend for the marking or distinguishing of such goods in accordance with the requirements of such Order, so far as practicable, before the sale or exposure for sale thereof in the United Kingdom."
    This is an Amendment of a very practical kind, which I hope the Government will be prepared to accept. If the President of the Board of Trade cannot accept the exact words proposed, he will secure the smooth working of the Bill and do much to prevent hardship and injury to consumers by inserting something of the kind. It is important that something should be clone. I presume that this matter will be in the hands of the Minister of Agriculture, who is always so sweetly reasonable and anxious to do what is fair and just. Among the articles that are likely to be affected are imported perishable food, such as fruit, vegetables, butter and meat. These articles, if held up by the Customs, must be injuriously affected, if not damaged to such an extent as to become unsaleable. I understand that what is proposed is that the box or the sack or basket that contains these fruits and vegetables shall bear an imprint on the outside as to the country of origin. At certain times of the year, particularly in the summer, hundreds of thousands of cases of perishable stuff come into Dover for Covent Garden or into London for Smithfield. There are enormous interests, concerned.
    It is probable that in the early days of this Rill's operation many of the cases containing these goods will not be properly marked. Much of the fruit imported is produced in country districts abroad, for instance, in Southern France, where the facilities for stamping cases will not be adequate, and it is possible that large consignments will come to this country improperly marked. We ask that in such cases the importer, if he gives a substantial guarantee that when the goods are placed on sale their country of origin will be indicated, he should be allowed to bring the goods into this country and so save them from the destruction or damage that would result from delay if he had to satisfy the Customs, find the necessary money, brand them and fulfil all the other requirements. Something of that sort is essential. We have had some experience in the working of another Act, especially in connection with the importation of silk. There have been endless

    247
    delays. Silk has been held up for many weeks in order to satisfy the Customs, in order that the necessary brand or certificate or money may be found, or in order to show whether the article is wholly silk or only partially silk.
    We are bound to have a similar experience under this Bill. Of course delay with silk, though serious, has not been fatal. It may have resulted in lost trade, but the goods have still been saleable. Take the case of meat coming from Holland. Large cargoes of pork come every year, and if held up they miss the market. Then there are strawberries, cherries, cabbages, beans, and flowers. If the Minister of Agriculture does not want to have his life made a burden by traders asking why so many cargoes have been damaged by being held up, if he does not want to be pestered by letters to the Press, or by deputations to Ins Department, something of the kind suggested in the Amendment is required. We have had from the President of the Board of Trade some concession about colouring matter. Let us have from the Minister of Agriculture some concession on this point, and we shall then be doing something to make the Bill less injurious to the trade and the country, and, above all, less injurious to the consumers.
    Mr. WIGGINS: I beg to second the Amendment.
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Guinness): The proposal of the Amendment is that in the case of perishable goods the Committee which recommends as to the Order should also deal with the way in which the goods are to be landed from ships. Of course these perishable goods will, in the ordinary case, concern the Minister of Agriculture. In our opinion, the proper way to deal with this question is to leave the administration in the discretion of the Department of Customs. The case can arise only where the goods are subject to an Order to be marked before importation. If there is any difficulty about marking before importation, the Committee which inquires into the application will naturally recommend that they be marked after importation, and will make the necessary provision to deal with that point. If, however, it is laid down that the goods are to be marked before importation, it would be a great invitation to evasion to
    248
    say that in spite of that Order they should go past the control of the Customs without effective marking. The case arises very often to-day. Under various powers the Board of Customs have to see that certain requirements as to marking are fulfilled. In the ordinary course no difficulty arises in marking these goods under the control of the Board of Customs.
    I am sure that in the case of perishable foodstuff, where the urgency of marking will he greater than in the case of nonperishable goods, they will fulfil their responsibilities in the same spirit as in the past. No complaints have been made as to any lack of reason or consideration in these matters on the part of the Board of Customs. In the other matters dealt with in the Amendment, transit and re-exportation, we have already provided in the Bill, at the bottom of page 3, that the Commissioners of Customs and Excise shall deal with these matters on compliance with such conditions as to security as they may impose.
    Captain BENN: Re-exportation?
    Mr. GUINNESS: Yes. They are doing that constantly to-day, and they are obviously the people to deal with these questions of administration. There is no difficulty about it, and it is far more convenient to the trader that these questions of bond and security, of transit and re-exportation should be in the hands of the Customs who have for long administered such questions without any difficulty.
    Captain BENN: I understand this is the first time it has been proposed to mark perishable goods. Brands and Customs formalities are required in the case of many other a tides, but delay in distribution from the ports does not affect the value of those other articles. It may affect their market f Dr the moment, but not their intrinsic value. Here we are proposing for the first time to put this hindrance in the way of the importation of perishable goods. There may be delays due to the slowness of the Customs officials, to the accumulation of work, or to some mistake on their part. I am not speaking of any wilful default in carrying out the instructions given under this Measure. In such a case, what is to happen to a person who pays for such goods, and who finds a whole stock left on his hands without any value?
    Mr. GUINNESS: If the goods are properly marked, they can pass through. If they are to be allowed to come in, despite an Order which has been framed in view of all the circumstances of the case, declaring that they are to be marked on importation, then it is merely putting a premium on breaking the law. As a matter of fact, the Customs administration in this country deals with such matters in an absolutely efficient manner at the present time. We had only this year an Order concerning cherries from infested districts abroad. At very short notice we put on a restriction that no cherries should come in unless they were covered by certificates from foreign Governments as to their origin and came from areas free from the cherry maggot. The Customs administered that Order, and there was no difficulty whatever.
    Mr. BARNES: Did it not lead to a rise in the price of cherries?
    Mr. GUINNESS: It led to a shortage of cherries because at that time the only cherries on the market were these foreign cherries, and it was a choice between having diseased cherries or no cherries at all. But that is quite beside the point. What I suggest is that the Customs are quite able to administer the clearing of these perishable goods without any delay, and that if we were to accept this proposal, we should inevitably have a great amount of evasion.
    Miss LAWRENCE: The Minister has drawn an analogy which is not at all cheering. He points out that the Customs were perfectly capable of declaring that certain imported cherries were infected, and then destroying them. I am very much afraid that the Customs, following the precedent of the cherries, will say in regard to these other articles of food: "They are not properly marked; we will destroy them as efficiently as we destroyed the maggotty cherries." That is their tradition, apparently, in dealing with articles of food. The question of whether food is to be destroyed or not is one on which we ought to have better assurances than those we have had up to the present. The Customs officers are not accustomed to deal in a great hurry with perishable articles, and serious difficulties may arise if a particular port is filled with an importation of perishable articles. I
    250
    mentioned in Committee how much the jam trade relies upon what may almost be described as "sudden" supplies of fruit. If these were to come in unmarked, in some cases a day's delay would mean that the whole stock would go bad and rotten. I raised that matter in Committee, and I had a very gloomy and dubious answer from the Minister of Agriculture. He said:
    "In a case of no great gravity, an opportunity of marking would be given on importation. In other cases it is possible to arrange for their return; in graver cases that arrangement can be made, but there may well be occasions when, owing to the grossness of the offence or the impossibility of return, there would be no alternative except to destroy or to let the foodstuff rot on the quay."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Standing Committee B), 15th July, 1926; col. 579.]
    Thus we see that these foodstuffs are to be destroyed, or left to rot on the quay in eases where it is impossible to ship them back—which would be nearly all cases—or where the offence has been gross. Nothing is said about the value of the food or the necessity for preserving it. We have only that most alarming statement. If people send in food not marked according to the law, I suppose somebody has to suffer, but that such food should be allowed to rot on the quay on account of the grossness of the offence committed by the importer seems an altogether wicked business. The food ought to be confiscated if necessary and sold if necessary. It could do no harm to our trade to sell off a few parcels of food which have come in irregularly. My view is that food is so precious, that even to contemplate allowing it to rot on the quay because of the grossness of an offence against this Measure is intolerable. I want from the Minister rather better assurances than we had in Committee on this question. If the offence has been gross, confiscation is a very useful weapon and a sufficient punishment. It will not hurt the importer any more if you allow the food to rot, and it will make this country very much the poorer. I would press for some assurance as to what is to be done in regard to the marketing of perishable articles which have come in not properly marked.
    Mr. RILEY: I wish to direct the attention of the Minister to an aspect of this question which has not yet been men-

    251
    tioned. The reply of the Minister to this Amendment is that the matter will be left to the discretion of the Customs, and that their discretion is quite enough to meet the situation contemplated by the Amendment. When this Bill becomes an Act, the Customs will be endowed statutory powers to exclude goods which do not conform to this Measure as regards marking. It is all very well to say that this discretion has been used already in the case of the cherries, but I understood the Minister to say that the discretion was then used on the instructions of his Department. Take the case of goods which meet with some accident in transit. The packages may be knocked about during a rough passage, and labels or other markings destroyed. Will specific instructions he given to the Customs, whereby, on the surety of the importer that the goods will not be sold unmarked, he will be
    allowed to have such goods delivered? There is the other case which I mentioned yesterday as to consignments of meat and other foodstuffs the destination of which is uncertain at the time of their despatch. Instructions may be given by wireless to the master of a ship at sea as to the port at which the goods are to be delivered, and a cargo intended for a foreign country may be diverted to London. Will steps be taken to see that such goods are delivered in London on the surety of the importer that they will be marked? The reply that this matter will be left to the discretion of the Customs does not meet the case, unless we are also assured that definite instructions will be issued from the Department concerned.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 105; Noes, 233.

    Division No. 481.]

    AYES.

    [4.42 p.m.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Saklatvala, Shapur

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hardie, George D.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Harris, Percy A.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Baker, Walter

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Barnes, A.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Barr, J.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Slesser, sir Henry H.

    Batey, Joseph

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Bromfield, William

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Buchanan, G.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Clowes, S.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Connolly, M.

    Kennedy, T.

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

    Cove, W. G.

    Lansbury, George

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lee, F.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lowth, T.

    Townend, A. E.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lunn, William

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Day, Colonel Harry

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Dennison, R.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Duckworth John

    MacNeill-Welr, L.

    Westwood, J.

    Dunnico, H.

    March S.

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Montague, Frederick

    Whiteley, W.

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.I

    Wiggins, William Martin

    England, Colonel A.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Wilkinson Ellen C.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, C. p. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Palin, John Henry

    Williams. David (Swansea, East)

    Gillett, George M.

    Paling, W.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Gosling, Harry

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Potts, John S.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Pureed, A. A.

    Windsor, Walter

    Groves, T.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grundy, T. w.

    Riley, Ben

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil

    Rose, Frank H.

    Sir Robert Hutchison and Major Owen.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent,Dover)

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Albery, Irving James

    Astor, Viscountess

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Apsley, Lord

    Balniel, Lord

    Bennett, A. J.

    Berry, Sir George

    Grace, John

    Nuttall Eilis

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R, Skipton)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Penny, Frederick George

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (Wth's'w, E.)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Radford, E. A.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hanbury, C.

    Raine, W.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Remer, J. R.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'is'y)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Ropner, Major L.

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouih)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Henderson. Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Rye, F. G.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Sandon, Lord

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. B. (Prtsmth.S)

    Hoars, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon, Sir S. J. G.

    Sassoon, sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A,

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Savery, S. S.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew.W.)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'yr

    Charteris, Brigadier-General,I.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney,N).

    Shepperson. E. W.

    Christie, J. A.

    Hudson, R. 9. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hutchison,G.A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

    Cope, Major William

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Courthope, Lieut. Col. Sir George L.

    Kidd, J. (Linilthgow)

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

    King, Capt. Henry Douglas

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Templeton, W, P.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Thomson, F, C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Dalkeith. Earl of

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Looker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Tinne, J. A.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F,(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Looker, Herbert William

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Lowe. Sir Francis William

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vera

    Waddington, R.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Drewe, C.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    McLean, Major A

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Wells, S. R.

    Elveden, Viscount

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall. Northern)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Fermoy, Lord

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Fielden, E. B.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Withers, John James

    Finburgh, S.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dga & Hyde)

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col, Anthony

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Morrison, F. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Gates, Percy

    Murchison. C. K.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Major Hennessy and Captain

    Goff, Sir Park

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld-)

    Lord Stanley.

    Mr. WEBB: I beg to move, in page 5, line 11, at the end, to insert the words
    "(8) This Section shall not apply to goods of a class or description which are not manufactured or produced in substantial quantities for sale in the United Kingdom."
    This Amendment is designed, in accordance with the ostensible purpose of the
    254
    Bill, to relieve from the onerous obligations proposed those goods where there is no object in putting on the obligation because they cannot actually, be misleading to consumers, seeing that they are goods of a class or description which are not manufactured or produced in sub-

    255
    stantial quantities for sale in the United Kingdom. There is no reason why we should aim at hitting imports from overseas as such. I cannot understand the kind of impression that all imports are, as such, injurious to this country or to our trade or employment. I have always believed that our import trade was at least as valuable as our export trade, and gave as much employment and produced as much profit as the export trade did, in addition to the even more important consideration of our great shipping industry in relation to imports. Now there appears to be a sort of impression that imports, as such, are injurious, and that even if they cannot be altogether kept out they shall be stigmatised and frowned upon. I am interested to see the Board of Trade taking up that position, or at least assumed to be taking up that position. It is not in accordance with the traditions of the Board of Trade and I should not have thought that the Board would have adhered to that position. But that is the position taken up by very many Members in this House. Here is a Bill which proposes to impose the obligation of marking, and of making it quite clear that an article is not produced in this country or manufactured here. That may be necessary in order to enable the consumer to know what he is buying and to enable him to satisfy his desire for a British egg or anything of that sort, but I should have thought it would have been simpler if the obligation had been put upon the British producer to mark his article and rely on the quality which he believes it to possess, and thus to make it known. That course has not been adopted by the Government. They leave the British producer free not to mark his article, however bad or however good it is, and they put the obligation on the foreign article, however bad, or however good it is.
    It would not be in order for me to enlarge on all the consequences of that policy, but I would just point out that there is some inconvenience in extending it so far as to cover articles in regard to which there is no doubt that they are not produced in this country and therefore the consumer cannot be under a wrong impression. One of those inconveniences is that you advertise the fact
    256
    of foreign production and manufacture. I should have thought that if there is any value at all in encouraging British trade and manufacture as against foreign, it would not be desirable unnecessarily to emphasise the fact that an article was made, say, in Germany, and thus to let the customer know that these articles are not produced here. These goods are sometimes far superior, in some cases, in quality to any produced in this country, and they are very often superior to many others produced in this country, and it is not good business to have this compulsory marking of goods and have them advertised in this way.
    Here is a case where there is no object in insisting on their having this mark, because it is not required to enable the consumer to be satisfied as to whether the article is British or foreign. The Amendment is designed to exclude from the necessity of this marking goods of a class or description not made or produced in this country in substantial quantities, and, consequently, as far as the ostensible object of the Bill is concerned, there does not seem to be any reason why compulsory marking should be required in such cases. We went into this question in Committee and the right lion. Gentleman in charge of the Bill explained that there was no reason to be advanced against the proposal I am making except that he said it might not be convenient to a Committee which wanted to recommend the compulsory marking of particular articles which were produced in this country if they had to restrict their order simply to those goods, and therefore it might be more convenient to them to use a general term and order compulsory marking of goods of a particular class, whether made in this country or not. That was the reason given by the right hon. Gentleman in the case of pottery. It was said there are certain kinds of pottery and articles made of earthenware and china clay which are not made in this country—not merely a-particular pattern but whole classes—and that it would be very much more convenient for the Committee, if they thought it desirable to order the marking of some kinds of pottery, to say that all goods of the nature of pottery should be marked. That is an argument which has a validity as far as it goes, but I suggest we ought not, for the sake of

    257
    making it more convenient to deal in general terms with the whole section of goods of this kind, to include some we do not wish to stigmatise and others which there is no necessity to give a free advertisement to. We ought not merely, in order to save a line of print, or something of that sort, to encourage the Committee or make it necessary for the Committee, if they are to attain their object, to impose an 'obligation which they wish to impose with regard to some articles, upon a great many other articles not produced in this country.
    That is an argument which warrants me in suggesting that this Amendment might very well be accepted, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman on consideration will so see his way, if not to accept the words, which possibly are not up to the high standard of draftsmanship imposed by the Bill, though we have had to correct it to an enormous extent. I say that not in any criticism of Parliamentary draftsmen, for whom I have the profoundest sympathy, but if you have a Bill of this kind it does require Parliamentary draftsmanship of a standard which is not easily attainable by the ordinary Member of the House, and therefore I say, if the right hon. Gentleman cannot accept my crudely expressed Amendment, at any rate, will he consider whether it would not to possible to make it unnecessary, in order to attain the object of the Bill, to make his penal Order, his restrictive, costly and extravagantly expensive Order, cover a very much larger field in some instances than is absolutely necessary.
    Mr. MARCH: I beg to second the Amendment.
    5.0 p.m.
    I would ask the Minister not to stop the importation of necessary goods into this country because of the vast amount of employment that it finds for the workers in the London areas and in East London especially. We have always been given to understand that the importation of goods found employment for workers and that the exportation of goods followed in return. Therefore, we think the Government would be wise in not putting too much opposition in the way of articles and goods manufactured abroad coming into this country when we do not manufacture the same kind of goods here.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The hon. Member who has just spoken is, I think, under a misconception. This Bill does not prohibit the importation of goods; it merely says that where an Order has been made foreign goods are not to come in unless they are marked as foreign. It will be perfectly open to people who import foreign goods to go on doing so, but the goods must be marked as foreign, and the buyer will know that he is buying foreign goods. The objections to this Amendment are on their merits, and I am not quarrelling with the draftmanship of the Amendment. If I accepted this Amendment, it would open the door to any amount of evasion, and it would have the very serious effect of making it impossible to make an Order to mark any Empire products which are not also produced in this country. Anyone who has had anything' to do with administration must realise that you must make your administration watertight. If you admit any exceptions, there can be manàuvring, and your administration goes by the board. An ingenious importer could persuade an ingenious manufacturer abroad to make pottery of a slightly different description and a little different in the design, and he could come and say: "This is not the same as pottery which is manufactured in this country." That opens the door to any amount of evasion. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) asks for facility of administration that the Bill may be executed rapidly, that there may be no hold-up in the ports. Can you conceive anything more likely to hold up goods in the ports than if an unfortunate Customs official has to wend his way through infinite intricacies in the designs Of pottery? That is one objection, but there is another which is certainly not less serious. The Imperial Economic Committee, in every one of its Reports, has laid stress on the fact of the Dominions not being able to bargain for the marketing of their produce. If this Amendment were to go through, there is not a single commodity produced in the British Empire which could be marked under this Bill unless the commodity is also produced in large quantities here. That is enough to condemn this proposal.
    Captain BENN: Is it true to say that Imperial products, if this Amendment were accepted, could not possibly bear

    259
    an indication of origin? I do not think that is true at all. At the present moment their best products are marked as "Best New Zealand this" and "Best New Zealand that." There is nothing to prevent that going on if this Amendment is accepted. It seems to me the right hon. Gentleman has given a totally false impression.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, Sir; the hon. and gallant Gentleman must not misrepresent me. I said that if the Amendment were carried an Order could not be made under this Bill.
    Captain BENN: The right hon. Gentleman gave the impression that if this Amendment were carried it would be impossible for Imperial producers to market their goods. He cannot deny that they are quite at liberty to advertise their goods if they wish without any Order under this Bill. All that will happen here if we do not exclude this class of goods will be this: You are not protecting the consumer, because he cannot get home goods in any case, as the Order only applies to foreign goods. You will be forcing the foreign manufacturer to advertise his goods in this country. He will not advertise bad German pottery or cheap Dutch supplies; he will mark the goods as the best, and that will produce in the minds of the consumers an appetite for these things and a desire to have them. The right lion. Gentleman has not made any case against this Amendment except from the one false point as to Empire produce. His case really is that, by excluding goods, whether they are made here or not, he is in effect putting up a barrier to prevent the free importation of articles for the benefit of consumers in this country. That is the object. of this Bill, but that is a plea that he dare not put in.
    Mr. BASIL PETO: I would like to add a word to what has been said by the President of the Board of Trade: but before I do so I would like to refer to the speech which was made by the Mover of this Amendment. He divided his speech into two parts; one dealing with goods in general and the other dealing particularly with the marking of fruit. He said that nobody would suppose that bananas were produced in any quantity in this country, and that, therefore, that
    260
    showed the absurdity of the draftsmanship of the Bill in insisting upon the possibility of the Committee ordering such a thing as the marking of bananas. But, although bananas are not grown in this country, they are grown in the British Empire, and they ought to be grown much more largely than they are. I believe they would he if people had the means of knowing whether they were buying foreign or Empire bananas. There is no reason why the proportion of Empire fruit purchased by people in this country should not be enormously increased. With regard to the remainder of the argument as to goods generally, the President of the Board of Trade pointed out the administrative difficulty, the impossibility, if this Amendment were put into the Bill, of carrying out the provisions of the Bill at all if Customs officers had to distinguish between one kind of pottery and another. But there is another reason. The right hoe. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) instanced pottery and said there were some classes of pottery that are not made in this country. It would be a good thing that the people of this country should know that. I cannot imagine anything that, would be more likely to produce a demand for home-produced pottery than the British public finding out that certain kinds of pottery are only produced abroad. It is always said by hon. Gentlemen opposite that this Bill cannot do anything to assist employment in this country, but this one fact proves that to be an absolute fallacy. All the arguments we have heard to-day we have already heard upstairs in Committee, and the same Amendments are being moved to-day as wore moved there. I do think it is important that now and then, at any rate, we should make some answer from this side of the House besides the answer made by the Minister. I know it is important to Carry the Bill through, and no one is more anxious to see it in force than I am, lout when arguments of this kind are brought forward and are based upon the supposition that this Bill is dealing with things that are produced only in the United Kingdom, I think those arguments should he answered. To hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham you would imagine he had never heard c f any other part of the British Empire than these islands, and

    261
    that he never had the Empire in mind when he was framing his Amendment. If he had, being a skilled draftsman, as he says, he would have drafted his Amendment in an entirely different way.
    Mr. HARMS: We are glad to have from hon. Gentlemen opposite an answer to some of our arguments. The speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken really shows the policy which hon. Members opposite wish to follow. It is the policy of scarcity, of discouraging foreign goods coming into this country. Our policy is the policy of abundance: we want to attract foodstuffs to this country so as to reduce the cost of living, which is the cause of all the industrial unrest. Every barrier, whether it takes the form of safeguarding of industries, of tariffs or of branding foreign goods, will make that more difficult, and that is what hon. Members opposite want to do£to discourage the foreigner from sending
    his butter, his corn and other foodstuffs into this country. The cost of articles of food are too high here. The words of the song are only too true, "Yes, we have no bananas," at least in the East End, because the prices are prohibitive. The hon. Gentleman and his friends want to make it impossible for the foreigner to send in these goods. We know there is a lot of advertising of Empire goods, and it is a good, sound policy. We ought to advertise our own goods. If British producers would standardise their goods and advertise them, that would be the way to encourage consumers to give a preference to British goods, not passing legislation of this kind which will only disorganise British trade.
    Question put. "That those words he there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 102: Noes, 250.

    Division No. 482.]

    AYES.

    15.16 p.m.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Riley, Ben

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Ritson, J.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hardie, George D.

    Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Baker, Walter

    Harris, Percy A.

    Sakiatvala, Shapurji

    Barnes, A.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Barr, J.

    Mayday, Arthur

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hayes, John Henry

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Bromfield, William

    Hore-Beilsha, Leslie

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Bromley, J.

    Jones. Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Smith, Rennie (penistone)

    Buchanan, G.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Charleton, H. C.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Clowes, S.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Close, W. S.

    Kennedy, T.

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Connolly, M.

    Lansbury, George

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Cove, W. G.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lawson, John James

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lee, F.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lowth, T.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    navies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lunn, William

    Townend, A. E.

    Day, Colonel Harry

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Dennison, R.

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow. Govan)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Duckworth, John

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Westwood, J.

    Dunnico, H.

    March, S.

    Whiteley, W.

    England, Colonel A.

    Montague, Frederick

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Gardner, f. P.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Williams, C. p. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams. David (Swansea, E)

    Gillett, George M.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Gosling, Harry

    Owen, Major G.

    Wilson, c. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.)

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Paling, W.

    Windsor, Walter

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Groves, T.

    Potts, John S.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Grundy. T. W.

    Purcell, A. A.

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normantnn)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Henderson.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent,Dover)

    Bennett, A. J.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James I.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Berry, Sir George

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Bethel, A.

    Albery, Irving James

    Balniel, Lord

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Barclay-Harvey, C M.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Apsley, Lord

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Blundell, F. N.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Bourne. Captain Robert Croft

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Penny, Frederick George

    Bridgeman, Ht, Hon. William Clive

    Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E)

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Brings, J. Harold

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Perring, Sir William George

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Hall, Vice-AdmiralSirR. (Eastbourne)

    Pielou, O. P.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Pilditch. Sir Philip

    Brown. Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)

    Hanbury, C.

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Radford, E. A.

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Raine, W.

    Burman, J. B.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Reid, Capt. A. S. c. (Warrington)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Remer, j. R.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Henderson. Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V L. (Bootle)

    Rhys, Hon C. A. U.

    Campbell. E. T.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hennessy, Major J, R. G.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y. Ch'ts'y)

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Herbert.S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Strettord)

    Cayzer. Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S)

    Hills. Major John Waller

    Ropner, Major L.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebonc)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

    Rye, F. G.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Chlicott. Sir Warden

    Hopkinson. Sir A. (Erie. Universities)

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Christie, J. A.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N).

    Sandon, Lord

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd.Whiteh'n

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave O.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hume-William, Sir W. Ellis

    Savery, S. S.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Shaw, Lt -Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W.)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. O.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts. Westb'y;

    Cockerill. Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Hutchison.G.A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Skelton. A. N.

    Conway. Sir W. Martin

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'D

    Smith. R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Cope, Major William

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

    Kindersley, Major O. M.

    Stanley. Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Stanley. Lord (Fylde)

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Kinloeh-Cooke, sir Clement

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend>

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Stott. Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Crookshank. Col. C. de W. (Berwick;

    Lane Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.

    Stuart, Crichton, Lord C.

    Curzon. Captain Viscount

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Datziel, Sir Davison

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Templeton, W. p.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset.Yeovil)

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Thorn, Lt. col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Loder, J. de V,

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Davies, Or. Vernon

    Looker, Herbert William

    Tinne, J. A.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Tryon. Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Lucas-Tooth. Sir Hugh Vere

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Drewe, C

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Waddington, R.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Macdonald. Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Macdonald, H. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Warner, Brigadier-General w. W.

    Elveden, Viscount

    McLean, Major A.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Watts Dr. T.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Wells. S. R.

    Fairlax, Captain J. G.

    MacRobert. Alexander M.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple.

    Fade, Sir Bertram G.

    Maitland. Sir Arthur D. Steel.

    William, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Fermoy, Lord

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Fielden, E. B.

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    Finburgh, S.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    M filer, R. J

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Gates, Percy

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Gilmour, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Murchison, C. K,

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Goff, Sir Park

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Bowyer.

    Grace, John

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld.. N.)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 6, line 15, to leave out from the word "goods" to the word "and" in line 18.
    This is purely a drafting Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. HARRIS: f beg to move, in page 5, line 19, to leave out the word "three," and to insert instead thereof the word "six."

    265
    I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is going to prove quite adamant, but I hope to persuade him to make some small concession to the much despised merchant class. I know he considers them unworthy of any consideration, and perhaps some people would like to see them ruined. The trading community has passed through very difficult times during the last 12 or 18 months. They have large accumulations of stock, big contracts in hand, and they have not been able to take delivery of many of them because of the trade depression. I put it to the President of the Board of Trade that it is not wise to bring in the whole machinery of this Bill, with all its requirements and Regulations, and the penalties which are involved, until the trade of the country has had time to adjust itself to the new conditions, to alter their plans, change their cases, and alter the make-up of their goods in order to satisfy the requirements of this Measure. I know the Minister contends that the trade has had reasonable notice. Yesterday he made much play on the fact that this Bill was introduced last May but, as I pointed out, it was introduced in very exceptional circumstances. It was introduced on a day when Parliament was paying less attention to its work than on any day within the last 50 years. It was the day on which the general strike terminated, and the public, the Press and the trading community of the country were quite unconscious that this was the day chosen in order to smuggle through Parliament this Merchandise Marks Bill. It is true that it has had three predecessors, but they never became Acts of Parliament because the opposition was so effective. This is a Government Measure, of course, but it does not arouse any enthusiasm in the serried ranks of the Protectionist party opposite, who are at the moment conspicuous by their absence. But the business people and the traders of this country are very much alarmed.
    The right hon. Gentleman spoke with great contempt of the London Chamber of Commerce; he brushed its decision aside. But he knows that the decision of that Chamber of Commerce was unanimous, it was carried without a single dissentient vote. It was indeed carried with acclamation and enthusiasm. And
    266
    this Chamber of Commerce represents no less than 60,000 traders—the most powerful trading organisation in the world. The right hon. Gentleman at a time of great trade depression is going to inflict untold hardship upon merchants if he puts these provisions into operation at once. I say he should give them a little time to adjust their stocks, to exhaust their contracts and become accustomed to the new conditions which will be imposed. That is a fair and reasonable concession, and I hope he will extend the time given in this Clause from three months to six months.
    Mr. MORRISON: I beg to second the Amendment.
    This is a small and reasonable request., and I hope the right hon. Gentleman, will at last show, a change of heart and make us some little concession in return for all the efforts we have made during the last two days. Three months is a very short period indeed, particularly when it is realised that there may have to be a good deal of correspondence with persons abroad over changes to be introduced, and alterations of plant for stamping and printing articles. All this takes time, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not desire to inflict larger losses on traders than he is compelled to. Yesterday when I endeavoured to get the operation of the first Clause delayed for 12 months instead of six months the right hon. Gentleman retorted to me that he thought six months was quite reasonable notice seeing the Bill had been before the House for so long. The answer to that is that two or three Bills of this character have been before the House on previous occasions and have died before birth; and, therefore, up to now the trading community have had no guarantee that the Government were any more in earnest about this Bill than the previous Bills.
    I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman, and he knows perfectly well that it is true, that it is only within the last few days that many thousands of business people have, to use a slang expression, begun to "sit up and take notice" of this Bill. That may not be so as regards Chambers of Commerce and organisations of that kind, although the London Chamber of Commerce is taking a good deal more notice of this Bill since it came out of Committee than it did pre-

    267
    viously, having evidently realised the danger; but apart from these organisations a very large number of individual traders who will be affected by the Measure have only recently begun to take notice of it and to try to understand its full implications. For all these reasons I think the right hon. Gentleman might grant this small concession, because even six months is barely sufficient for a great deal of the work that may have to be done in making alterations to plant, especially in the case of goods made under a system of mass production.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I do not think anybody in business circles has been taken by surprise by this Bill. I have had the privilege of consultations with—
    Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and 40 Members being present—
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I was saying that no one could have been taken by surprise because not only has the Bill been before the country for the last six months, but it has been claimed that there was every intention that it should pass into law. Even before the Bill was introduced it formed, as any Bill of this kind ought to, the subject of very long discussions at the Board of Trade with interests concerned—manufacturers, merchants, importers, shipowners, and so on. Therefore, the arguments that this is a novel proposal, which is going to take everyone by surprise, is not well founded. Then it is said the notice provided for, which is a minimum of three months, is insufficient. If three months be insufficient it will be quite competent for a committee to recommend, and for an Order to declare, that the notice shall be longer than three months. Minimum does not mean maximum, and while there may not be less than three months there must at least be three, and there may be more.
    Even if the period stated in the Order is three months there is considerably more than three months' notice in fact. When an inquiry is referred to a Committee, 28 days' notice has to be given, so 28 days are added to the three months. Then the Committee sit, and hear applicants and objectors who have, in their opinion, a substantial interest
    268
    in the matter, and obviously if they are being heard they have notice. The Committee, having concluded the taking of evidence, proceed to consider their Report, and when they have made it, that Report has to be published and laid. Then the Report is considered by the appropriate Department, and if the Department agrees with it a Draft Order is made. That Draft Order has to be laid. It is published to the world, so that everybody sees the draft, and then it is laid for 20 Parliamentary days, and cannot become a valid Order until the lapse of 20 Parliamentary days.
    Therefore, in addition to the minimum of three months, which dates from the making of the Order, there is all that preliminary period during which everybody concerned has full notice, and I think it is unreasonable to say that that notice is insufficient. If, however, notwithstanding all this preliminary notice—the publication of he application, the issue of the draft Order and the issue of the Order in its final form—it is still considered that the circumstances are so exceptional that more than three months' notice is required, that can be provided for in the Order. Anybody who says, "I have quantities of goods on my hands which I have rushed in"—or not rushed in—such things have been known as people trying to rush in things in anticipation of an Order or an Act of Parliament—and thinks that three months is too little notice, will be entitled to argue that point before the Committee, and if he can make out a case, the Committee will recommend more than the minimum of three months. Some people may think the objector has been safeguarded with too great consideration, but that it can be geld for one moment that, with all these safeguards, anybody is going to be taken by surprise or injuriously affected in his business seems to me, if I may respectfully say so, to be ridiculous.
    Mr. WEBB: The right hon. Gentleman has been at pains to show us that elaborate notice will be given in every case, but I venture to think he has left out certain considerations which impair very considerably that notice. Let us consider the case as a real case, and not as an Amendment put up to delay the progress of the Bill, and really apply ourselves a little sympathetically to the

    269
    bare possibility of there being something in the point which is being urged. The right hon. Gentleman speaks of the inquiry, the 28 days' notice, the proceedings before the Committee, and so on, as if all that were notice for the purpose of making preparations to comply with the Order when it comes out. He has taken it for granted, apparently, that directly an inquiry is held it will tell all the people concerned what they will have to do—that subject only to the contingency of the Order in Council being made, which they may very properly presume is a small contingency, they will know straight away, as soon as notice is given, what they will have to do. That is not the case. Difficulty will arise in cases where goods have to make a long journey to this country. The first thing which it will he necessary to know is whether the goods will have to bear an indication of their origin at the time of importation, that is, will have to have the marks put on when they are shipped. Let us take the case of goods which are to be shipped from New Zealand to this coati-try. The importer may not know whether the Order will require them to be marked before they are shipped from New Zealand or when exposed for sale in this country. The right hon. Gentleman has more than once explained that it is not contemplated that the very stringent requirement of marking before shipment—what is called marking on importation—will be applied in more than a minority of cases. Therefore, the shipper and the merchant will not know whether they will be required to mark the goods before they are shipped or two or three months afterwards, when the goods have arrived in this country. Moreover, the Bill provides that the Order in Council shall specify in every case the manner in which the indication of origin is to be applied to the goods. The unfortunate importer will have to wait to know what manner of marking is specified.
    Therefore, it is no use the right hon. Gentleman telling the House that everybody has ample notice of what he will have to do as soon as an inquiry is referred to a committee and a 28 days' notice given. The trader does not know what manner of marking will be prescribed. He cannot be supposed to exercise his imagination on that point.
    270
    There are an indefinite, I might say an infinite, number of ways in which one could be required to mark the indication of origin. A merchant could not send an order to a shipper in New Zealand to say, "From now onwards, you are to mark all the goods you are going to ship," because he would not know the manner in which the indication of origin is to be applied. He would not even know whether it would be necessary to mark the goods in New Zealand. Assuming that he may be prepared for the worst, and the Government are going to require these goods to be marked before shipment, how can he anticipate in what way the Order in Council will require them to be marked I Therefore the argument that this proposed period of notice would be unnecessarily long really has no foundation. Practically it takes six weeks to get goods from New Zealand, and that means that the whole three months period will be required. Therefore if anyone writes out to New Zealand as soon as the Order is made, he would use up the whole of that three months sending out and marking the goods in New Zealand and getting the goods back again. If you had to write to Japan in order to get the goods shipped so as to arrive here, again it would take the whole of the three months. I appeal to the President of the Board of Trade on this point. I do not claim that my arguments have converted the right hon. Gentleman, but I think he might accept this Amendment.
    Vice-Admiral Sir REGINALD HALL: I am afraid hon. Members who are supporting this Amendment have not read the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down says that three months is the maximum.
    Mr. WEBB: Yes, unless the Committee he graciously pleased to give more.
    Sir R. HALL: If the right hon. Gentleman clearly understands that three months is the minimum, then I fail to see his line of argument, because the Committee will know the distance of New Zealand from this country perhaps as well as the right hon. Gentleman, and, in making the Order and laying down the time, undoubtedly they would be guided by the different circumstances of each

    271
    case. Therefore, I cannot see where the hardship going to come in. After all, one of the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman is that the importer will not be able to tell a man in a foreign country what he has to do, and he will not be able to specify exactly. That is quite true, and until the Order in Council is made, it is quite open to any competent merchant to mark his goods in some way until the definite Order is made. I take it that this Bill will be administered in the same way as most other Acts are administered here, with reason and commonsense. With all deference to the right hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade, I really fail to see that he has produced any argument in favour of increasing the period from three months to six months.
    Captain BENN: I do not think the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken has quite seized the point. Does he wish to penalise the trader who made these goods on contract and cannot get them here to have the markings changed before the Order comes into force?
    Sir R. HALL: My point was that the Committee who are going to make the Order would be just as competent to take into consideration the whole of the circumstances as anybody else.
    Captain BENN: Confidence in these Committees varies. We have already seen some of these Committees, and they are merely an instrument of the Board of Trade policy. The President of the Board of Trade rather shifted his attitude when he talked about rushing goods in prior to the Order. Of course the right hon. Gentleman was then thinking of a tariff, and this is intended to be a tariff. What we say is that you should lay clown in the
    Bill that a reasonable time at least should be given as a statutory right, and that is all for which we are asking. With regard to the argument that the Committee will be composed of reasonable men, I have no doubt that this Committee will be like the Safeguarding Committees, which are far too much under the influence of the President of the Board of Trade. In regard to one of these Committees have recently had an amazing instance of instructions being sent by the Board of Trade to a judge, and this was rather indiscreetly brought out by one of the members of the Committee.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The only case is one where a Committee invited me to make a pronouncement, and I entirely declined to do so.
    Captain BENN: I still hold to my opinion that the President of the Board of Trade influences these Committees and they are not independent judicial bodies, but instruments of the Board of Trade.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: That is a mis-statement of the facts.
    Captain BENN: I contend that the incident in question was extremely discreditable to the Board of Trade. How do we know that a man who is carrying on a foreign trade will not be penalised, and he may find his goods held up in the ports. Protection in such cases should be given in the Bill, and this matter should not he left to the insecure protection of the good will of a committee, which may he merely a party of officials carrying out a pre-determined policy laid down by the President of the Board of Trade.
    Question put, "That the word 'three stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 271; Noes, 108.

    Division No. 483.]

    AYES.

    [5.55 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Balniel, Lord

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James I.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Bowater. Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Ainswarth, Major Charles

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

    Albery, Irving, James

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Braithwaite. A. N.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Bridgeman. Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Brings, J. Harold

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Bennett, A. J.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Apsley, Lord

    Berry, Sir George

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Bethel, A.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Brown, Brig-Gen, H.C.(Berks. Newb'y)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Bullock. Captain M.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Blundell, F. N.

    Burman, J. B.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Perring, Sir William George

    Calne, Gordon Half

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Pleiou, D. P.

    Casseis, J. D.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth.S.)

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Henderson, Capt. R.R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Radford, E. A.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Raine, W.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Christie, J. A.

    Hills. Major John Waller

    Remer, J. R.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St.Marylebone)

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Ropnar, Major L.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemanth)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Rye, F. G.

    Courthope, Lieut. -Col. Sir George L.

    Hudson, R.S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Sandon, Lord

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Savery, S. S.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Davidson, J.(Hertf'd. Hemel Hempst'd)

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset. Yeovil)

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Skelton. A. N.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Smith, R. W.[Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Smithers, Waldron

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Drewe, c.

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Ellis, R. G.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Elveden, Viscount

    Looker, Herbert William

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S.-M.)

    Lowe Sir Francis William

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray. Fraser

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Sykes. Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Templeton, W. P,

    Fermoy, Lord

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Fielden, E, B.

    McLean, Major A.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Finburgh, S.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Tinne, J. A.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Foxcroft, Captain C T.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D Steel-

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Waddington, R.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Margesson, Capt. D.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Meller, R. J.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Wells, S. R.

    Gates, Percy

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H,

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Goff, Sir Park

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Grace, John

    Monseil, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Williams, Com, C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Moore, Sir Newton J,

    Winterton, Rt. Hon, Earl

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)

    Murchison, C. K.

    Withers, John James

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Nicholson, Col. Rt.Hn.W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hvde)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Hanbury, C.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Major Cope and Captain Bowyer.

    NOES

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Barnes, A.

    Bromfield, William

    Ammon, Charles George

    Barr, J.

    Bromley, J.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Batey, Joseph

    Buchanan, G.

    Baker, Walter

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Charleton, H. C.

    274

    275

    Clowes, S.

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Scurr, John

    Connolly, M.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Cove, W. G.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Kennedy, T.

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lansbury, George

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Dennison, R.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Duckworth, John

    Lawson, John James

    Stamford, T. W.

    Duncan, C.

    Lee, F.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Dunnico, H

    Lindley, F. W.

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Lowth, T.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Lunn, William

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro-W.)

    England, Colonel A.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Forrest, W.

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Thome, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Gardner, J. P.

    March, S.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Montague, Frederick

    Townend, A. E.

    Gillett, George M.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Gosling, Harry

    Naylor, T. E.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Westwood, J.

    Greenall, D. ft. (Glamorgan)

    Palin, John Henry

    Whiteley, W.

    Groves, T.

    Paling, W.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Potts, John S.

    Williams, David (Swansea. East)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Purcell, A. A.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Hardie, George D.

    Riley, Ben

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Ritson, J.

    Windsor, Walter

    Hayday, Arthur

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks.W.R., Eiland)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Sakiatvala, Shapurji

    Major Owen and Mr. Percy Harris

    Hirst, G. H.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Sir B. CHADWICK: I beg to move, in page 5, line 21, after the first word "Order," to insert the words
    "except in the case of an Order revoking a previous Order either entirely or as respects some of the goods to which that Order relates, or an Order made for amending a previous Order in consequence of a direction having been given with respect to that Order under the provisions of this Act relating to provisional exemptions."
    This Amendment is consequential on the new Clause which was introduced yesterday.
    Captain BENN: I thought the hon. Gentleman's explanation, while very interesting, was very brief indeed, and it did not appear to me quite to cover all the ground. Does he mean that this Amendment is moved in consequence, as he said, of some new Clause? The assurance I would like to have from him is this: Is there anything in this Amendment which deprives of the three months' notice any article which may be on its way to this country? If, of course, it is only that Orders repealing other Orders, and, therefore, permitting the importation, unmarked, of foreign goods, do not require three months' notice, there is no complaint that I can see against the Amendment; but I should like the hon. Gentleman to assure us that it is not possible under this Amendment to deprive the importer of the three months' statutory delay to which he is entitled under Clause 2 of the Bill.
    Mr. MARCH: Before the hon. Gentleman replies, I should like also to ask him a question in connection with this matter. When we were discussing a previous Amendment, the Minister in charge of the Bill said that he could not possibly consider any Amendment whereby there would be any exemptions, because it would spoil the whole Bill if they started to make exemptions here and exemptions there. At the bottom, however, of this new paragraph, I find the words
    "with respect to that Order under the provisions of this Act relating to provisional exemptions."
    Therefore, the Minister has in mind some idea of exemptions being made in some cases, and yet he could not accept other Amendments under which exemptions could be made. I should like the hon. Gentleman to give us some explanation of that?
    Mr. CECIL WILSON: At the same time, I should like the hon. Gentleman to give us some general explanation on this matter. When this Clause is completed, with the Amendments on the paper, we shall have "the Order," "an Order," "the previous Order," "that Order," "an Order," "the previous Order," "that order," and "the Order." It seems as through it will end in general disorder. If the hon. Gentleman would give us some general explanation, I am sure we should be glad.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: The answer to the question of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) as to the meaning of this Amendment is that it is consequential on the introduction of the new Clause which gives power to the Department under certain conditions of emergency; to suspend the operation of an Order. That is the now Clause which was moved yesterday, giving power to the Department to give directions, to publish those directions, and so forth, where there is a case in which an Order is obviously creating hardship. This Amendment is consequential on that, because obviously, where the appropriate Department wishes to give a direction, it only, wishes to do so for the purpose of reducing difficulties that may exist under the order, and there is, of course, no reason why the three months' period should exist in connection with that direction.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. HARRIS: I beg to move, in page 5, line 28, at the end, to add the words
    "This Section shall not apply to raw fruit or raw vegetables."
    I would remind the house that between the egg-marking Bill of 1923 and the Bill of the following year there was a very vital difference. In the Bill of 1923, fruit and vegetables were included, but, as the result of the discussions, it was decided by the promoters, with all the knowledge at their disposal, that it was not practicable or possible to include fruit and vegetables, and so, in the Bill of 1994, fruit and vegetables were specifically excluded from the Schedule. The promoters of those Bills, and particularly the latter of them, were full of enthusiasm and belief in the principles of the Bills, and they had the courage of their convictions, because they put their Bills in a practical form and stated in a Schedule the articles that the Bill was to affect. With all their enthusiasm, however, they came to the conclusion, as the result of the representations of traders, that it was not practicable to require the branding and stamping of fruit and perishable vegetables.
    I have already spoken on that subject, and do not want to restate the arguments against the stamping of fruit and raw vegetables, but the idea of committee after committee sitting to consider
    278
    Brussels sprouts, Jerusalem artichokes, potatoes, carrots, French beans, green peas, spinach, and all the dozens of things that go into the vegetable pot, is too horrible to contemplate. Some hon. Members opposite were very cross with me some time ago when I said that the policy of my friends on these benches was the policy of abundance, while the policy of hon. Members opposite was the policy of scarcity. They resented that suggestion. I will accept the fact that they do not wish to cause scarcity, but, if the producers who supply our markets at present with an abundance of all these vegetables, to add to the variety of our diet and the health of our population, are going to anticipate all this elaborate paraphernalia being applied to their industry, they will come to the conclusion that the game is not worth the candle, and Protectionist farmers will have the satisfaction of knowing that they will no longer be faced with serious competition from abroad.
    It is risky to send perishable stuff to our market if it may be held up by the Customs officials while all the requirements of this Measure are applied to it; and, of course, the arguments which apply to vegetables apply with even more force to fruit. Strawberries, cherries, plums, all the variety of summer fruits, if they do not get to the market on the very clay they arrive, become unfit for consumption and may as well be thrown into the river or destroyed by the destructor. It is common knowledge that a large number of inspectors are employed, even now, under the present conditions, condemning fruit in the summer time as not fit for consumption because it has been put on the market too late. The right hon. Gentleman will be well advised to follow the experience of the Bill of 1924, which specifically excluded fruit and vegetables. The whole of the organisation responsible for the fruit trade in London—the Federation of Fruit and Vegetable Traders—has unanimously decided that the application of a provision of this kind would seriously injure and jeopardise their trade. Covent Garden contend that it would make it almost impossible to carry on their business, so that I think the right hon. Gentleman, if he does not want to go down to unenviable history as the fruit and vegetable taxer, as the man who caused scarcity of fruit and vegetables by requir-

    279
    ing these unnecessary restrictions, will do well to exclude these articles from his Bill.
    Cobden made bread cheap; this Government may be known as the Government that made fruit and vegetables very scarce. I therefore submit to the right hon. Gentleman that he would be well advised to take this opportunity of specifically excluding these most necessary articles of diet, which are very expensive at the present time. There was a campaign in the Press the other day about the high cost of vegetables, and there is a slogan all over the country, "Eat more fruit." I hope the right hon. Gentleman's policy will not be, "Eat less fruit, or, at any rate, limit your market for fruit to the Empire trade." I want to see the fruit and vegetables of the world pouring into our country, and, therefore, I am against any kind of restriction, and trust that this Amendment will be accepted.
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Mr. GUINNESS: The hon. Member is really not justified in assuming that an Order to mark will be made for all articles which possibly may be brought within the purview of this Bill. We express no opinion as to whether fruit, vegetables, and various other commodities which have been brought forward for exclusion from the Bill, will or will not be marked.
    Fruit and vegetables are clearly a difficult problem. Whether they should be marked is a vexed question, as was shown in the case of private Members' Bills brought forward in the past, and that is, no doubt, why on one occasion they were included and in a similar Bill there was no mention of them. Since that time we have had a recommendation from the Imperial Economic Committee, and for that reason alone, quite apart from our decision that we had better deal with this not by Schedule but by allowing these matters to be considered by a Committee, it has been absolutely necessary that fruit should be considered in all its aspects and all the difficulties and advantages of marking it should be put before the Committee. The Committee will be in a better position to judge as to the expediency of marking fruit and
    280
    vegetables than the House of Commons can possibly be, seeing that we have not heard the case. It is a complicated matter, admittedly, and one which is eminently suited for evidence before one of these Committees. This Bill is framed on the basis of The fullest discussion. By refusing to rule out any commodity we will not commit ourselves to the view that that particular commodity is going to be marked, but we are not prepared to put down Schedules to say what are suitable articles for marking, and we have definitely preferred the machinery of Committees, thinking that thereby we shall assure a full hearing and a wise decision, and therefore we cannot make any exception or rule out any commodity from being eligible for being considered by a Committee.
    Mr. BROMLEY: The right hon. Gentleman does not appear to be particularly enthusiastic in refusing the Amendment. I cannot for the life of me see what the Government have to object to in this, because it seems not only unreasonable but almost impossible to mark fruit and vegetables. It seems amazing to think of marking cabbages. But if appears that the Government are determined on having this Merchandise Marks Act as one step in the direction of Protection, and every attempt to minimise it or to make it a wise Measure is met with refusal because the Government feel that it is on the high road to more and more protective tariffs, and will not have anything altered. It is very strange that at a time when our Government are going blundering into what they feel to be Protection and profits for the captains of industry, the United States are just exploring the field for world Free Trade. We, apparently, are drifting towards something in the opposite direction, which many of us are convinced would be somewhat of a disaster for consumers.
    I cannot conceive that it is really the intention of the Government to make foodstuffs, and the ordinary necessities and commodities of life, plentiful for the working people, or on the other hand to stimulate the home market. If that were so, there is a method quite ready at their hand, and that is to adopt the practice the United States have adopted and increase the wages, and therefore the spending power, of the working people. They will buy British goods quickly enough if

    281
    they can pay for them. They will buy the best if they can afford it. We have a great potential home market for goods of every description, manufactured by British manufacturers and British workers, waiting to be sold, and the working people, who are the greatest consumers, cannot purchase them because their wages are not high enough. We find one class of worker thrown out of work by virtue of the fact that the other class of worker is prevented by low wages from buying his product, and so the vicious circle goes round. The finest way to deal with this matter is to take some step in the direction I have indicated. I do not think anyone would object to the purchaser knowing the country of origin of whatever he buys, but I cannot understand the Government sticking at an Amendment of this description, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the position.
    Mr. BARNES: Seeing that Sub-section (5) of Clause 2 has been withdrawn, I had hoped that the Government would accept its consequences and adopt this Amendment. I, too, feel that the Minister of Agriculture did not resist it with any force. It is not difficult to see behind his argument the knowledge that to apply the provisions of the Bill to raw fruit and vegetables would create more difficulties than advantages. If that be a fear that already exists and the difficulty of marking this kind of article be practically acknowledged impossible, would it not be better to remove any uneasiness which may still exist in regard to importers and traders and cut it out of the Bill entirely.
    I should like to submit one or two difficulties that are bound to arise. By the time parcels of fruit find their way to the greengrocer's shop or the costermonger's barrow, it is practically impossible to know whether they have carried out. the Regulations by disclosing the origin of production or growth of the commodity, because, even though the importer handles them in large quantities, and it may be possible to label the bulk of the commodities as they come into our ports, by the time they have passed through the markets and been broken up and purchased by a multitude of small greengrocers, most of them dealing in very small quantities, one can realise the accumulation of difficulties which will
    282
    arise at each step in the process of distribution until it breaks down by the sheer impossibility of supervision. We will assume that the Committee decides that a case has been made out for the marking of raw fruit and that the problem at the ports is overcome. There is no doubt that local authorities, on whom the responsibility of supervision is ultimately placed, will be confronted with a considerable addition to their staff of inspectors if this thing is not to become a matter a ridicule.
    That is one phase of it which of itself should prove sufficient to enable the Government to accept the Amendment, but there are other aspects of it which are equally important. We have heard a good deal about the necessity of importing cheap fruit at different seasons. At a casual glance, one might take the view that this is not very important. As a matter of fact, it is of extreme importance to large bodies of consumers. If the average worker had a reasonable wage, the problem of cheap fruit would be of less importance. Then the sentimental desire of any native-born person to consume the products of his own country would operate effectively and naturally, but in view of the fact that large bodies of consumers are in such an economic position that sentiment cannot possibly enter into the problem of purchase, I feel that price becomes of increasing importance. As a matter of fact, the only time that large sections of our population get an opportunity of consuming fresh fruit at all is when market conditions produce a glut. It is a sorry thing and a wrong thing to have to admit, but that is not our problem. That is the problem of the system which hon. Members opposite consider they can defend.
    It is not my purpose to enter into an argument as to the morality or efficiency of capitalism as an economic system. I must confine myself to the bare, brutal fact that large masses of our people are so poor that their only opportunity of getting fresh fruit, and very often fresh vegetables, is when there is a glut and large quantities have to be sacrificed for the purpose of getting a sale. In view of the fact that this Bill means that a large range of articles which previously floated into the country without any Customs supervision will now have to be

    283
    supervised, the machinery of our docks and ports will not permit of these additional difficulties without adding to the congestion. Previously, it was argued that machines and manufactured articles do not lose their value if they are held up, but what will happen is that if one cargo is held up it will block the handling of other cargoes, and by that means the interaction of this Bill will cause a considerable loss of fruit and vegetables. It is nothing short of a crime that Parliament should be considering any form of legislation that tends to waste food supplies.
    We will take the problem of jam making. The jam making industry is of considerable dimensions, because fairly large quantities are consumed here as compared with other nations. Again, jam enters as a very important item of working-class consumption. A slice of bread and jam often has to compensate for the absence of a joint. Therefore, a cheap jam supply is essential. Not only is the amount of sugar in it vital to health, but it is a food commodity, and the price of jam to a very large extent depends on the quantity of fruit that may be on the market. I see no reason why the jam manufacturers should not get the advantage of the general machinery and the facilities for the importation of these things. If the fruit is sacrificed on the British market, we do not lose, the consumer does not lose and the British grower does not lose. If we wish to advance the interests of the British grower of fruit, I suggest that he is handicapped more by our out-of-date transport system, and the heavy charges by the railways for handling short-distance fruit traffic than by foreign competition.
    The Minister of Agriculture referred to the fact that the Imperial Economic Marketing Committee have emphasised the necessity of consumers in this country being given an opportunity of knowing when they are purchasing Imperial produce. I agree. I do not think there is any hon. Member on this side who disagrees with the principle that the purchaser ought to know. We believe that if the purchaser does know that the article has been produced by our own Dominions, leaving out for the moment the question of price, sentiment
    284
    will begin to operate; but right hon. Gentlemen opposite know that the trade of the Dominions has been built up in the British markets almost entirely so far. The Dominions do not sell much of their commodities in any markets other than the markets of Great Britain. It is a fallacy to assume that Empire produce is experiencing difficulty in finding a market in this country. The overwhelming bulk of Empire goods are sold in Great Britain. They have built up their markets here, and not because they had to break down any prejudice on the part of the merchant or any disinclination on the part of the consumer to purchase their produce. They have built up that market, and they will keep that market only by studying British practice and British taste. India has done it in regard to tea. New Zealand is doing it in regard to butter, and the Canadian producers of bacon are cutting out or beginning to compete with the Danish market in bacon.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I must intervene here. The hon. Member is now making a general speech on the Bill.
    Mr. BARNES: I apologise to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the House for having strayed into a general discussion. But the arguments which I have been trying to advance are applicable to Canadian apples, Australian fruit, and generally to the items covered under the term "raw fruit." The point which I was trying to emphasise was that the better plan, which has been tried in all circles of commerce and by all merchants of repute, is to secure the custom of the consumer, and in the long run the only permanent way of securing the custom of the consumer is by establishing your own brands of grading and quality, and depending upon that to keep you the market. The fact that we have set aside £500,000 for advertising Dominion produce is a far more scientific and more beneficial way of reaching the consumers in this country than bringing raw fruit and vegetables under the vexatious and irritating Clauses of this Bill. As the Government have eliminated Sub-section (5) from the Bill, which tried to deal with the problem of marking, I would suggest that as a logical conclusion they should remove this provision affecting raw fruit and vegetables.
    Mr. CONNOLLY: I would like to put to the Minister in charge a question regarding Ireland. It is well known that a fairly large amount of raw fruit and vegetables comes into this country Iron Ireland. Clause 1 states that the scope of the Bill is to be the United Kingdom. As the House is aware, His Majesty's title has been recently altered, and I think that at this stage the question regarding the marking of raw fruit and vegetables coming from Ireland ought to he defined.
    Mr. SPEAKER: We cannot do that now.
    Mr. PALING: The Minister of Agriculture has given us one of the best reasons why the Amendment should be accepted. He practically admitted that they were in such doubt as to the advisability of marking fruit and vegetables that they were leaving it an open question.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I expressed no opinion.
    Mr. PALING: The right hon. Gentleman practically admitted that they were in such difficulties and doubt as to the advisability of marking fruit and vegetables that they were leaving it open, and they did not know what they would do. They were to be guided by the situation in future. If their information on this subject be of such a vague character as that, it is asking too much of this House that we should put into operation a very definite Clause such as this. If the Minister of Agriculture does not know what is going to occur and we are to leave it to the future to see what happens, he ought not to be asking us to pass the Bill in its present form. The right hon. Gentleman knows, the President of the Board of Trade knows, and the Parliamentary Secretary knows that if the Bill goes through in its present form it must mean delay in the delivery of fruit and vegetables. That delay must mean that a great amount of the fruit will perish. A much greater amount than perishes now will perish, anal prices will go up.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The Government makes no such admission and no such assumption.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I must point out that those arguments have been repeated a
    286
    dozen times to-day, and they were repeated yesterday. I called this Amendment on the understanding that we were to take a decision upon it without further debate, for the reason that we had already discussed the subject over and over again.
    Mr. MARDY JONES: Those of us who have not had the privilege of sitting on the Committee dealing with this Bill have not heard these arguments, and we hear them for the first time to-day.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I am not speaking of the Committee; I am speaking of the House. Hon. Members will agree with me that this question has been very generally threshed out. I. called for the Amendment so that the House might give a decision on the point.
    Mr. PALING: I was not aware of that fact. Under the circumstances, I will cut down my remarks. I have a great deal of information 'which I had intended reading to the House. I am sure the Minister of Agriculture must be aware that delays will take place if marking becomes necessary. He must know that delays in regard to fruit and vegetables, fruit particularly, are very dangerous, and that if delays do occur the consumer in this country will have to pay a much bigger price. I do not know whether the position of the Port of Hull has been mentioned, but I am given to understand that at the Port of Hull in July, 1925, 769,000 packages of fruit were imported, 203,000 packages of vegetables and 869 packages of nuts. Those were the statistics for one port in one month, to say nothing of the importations at London, Southampton and Liverpool. This marking will take a considerable amount of time. Yesterday, the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley) referred to the steps that have been taken for the quicker handling of fruit in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and as illustration of that he mentioned that they had dispensed with railway transport, because it was too slow, and had put into operation a system of motor lorry transport to the West Riding towns. If this Bill comes into operation, it will mean that an immense amount of fruit imported into Hull will be held up waiting for marking, and dozens of these motor lorries will be held up.

    287
    To give more detailed figures of what will occur, I am informed that from France alone into Hull in one month 65,000 packages of plums were imported. French fruit is of a very perishable nature, more especially plums. If this Bill goes through and marking has to be set up, many of these packages of plums will deteriorate and will be wasted. Certainly a much greater number of packages will deteriorate and be wasted in the future. We have heard a great deal in this House about an aeroplane service coming into operation, because the aeroplanes are quicker. I believe it is true that aeroplanes are being used to a greater extent every month and every week for the transportation of fruit. What will occur to this particular branch of service if these marking operations are to come into force?
    What will occur when a person trends to the greengrocer for 1 lb. of apples, which are delivered at the customer's house? Will the greengrocer have to enclose with the apples a ticket stating that the apples are Dominion or foreign produce? These are questions which, although the subject may have been discussed before, have not been answered, and the House is entitled to have an answer to them. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, with the courtesy for which he has a reputation, will give us complete and detailed answers to our questions.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 109; Noes, 268.

    Division No. 484.]

    AYES.

    [6.44 p.m.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. R., Eiland)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hardie, George D.

    Scrymgoeur, E.

    Baker, Walter

    Harris, Percy A.

    Scurr, John

    Barnes, A.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Sexton, James

    Batey, Joseph

    Hayday, Arthur

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Bromfield, William

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Bromley, J.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Buchanan, G.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Charleton, H. C

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Clowes, S.

    Janes, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Cluse, W. S.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Connolly, M.

    Jones, T. J. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Cove, W. G.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Sullivan, J.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Kennedy, T.

    Thomas. Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Lansbury, George

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro.W.)

    Davies. Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lawson, John James

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Pialstow)

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lee, F.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Dennison, R.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Townend, A. E.

    Duckworth, John

    Lowth, T.

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Duncan, C.

    Lunn, William

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Dunnico, H.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Westwood, J.

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Whiteley, W.

    England, Colonel A.

    March, S.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Forrest, W.

    Montague, Frederick

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gardner, J, P.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Gillett, George M.

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Gosling, Harry

    Paling, W.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Windsor, Walter

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Potts, John S.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Purcell, A. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Groves, T.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Sir Robert Hutchison and Major

    Grundy, T. W.

    Riley, Ben

    Owen.

    Hall, F. (York, W.H., Normanton)

    Ritson, J.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander, F. W.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent,Dover)

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Albery, Irving James

    Astor, Viscountess

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Bennett, A. J.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Berry, Sir George

    Apsley, Lord

    Balniel, Lord

    Bethel, A.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Perring, Sir William George

    Biundell, F. N.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Grotrian. H. Brent

    Pielou, D. p.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Pliditch, Sir Philip

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Price, Major C. W. M

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Radford, E A.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Hanbury, C.

    Raine, W.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks,Nowb'y)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Remer, J. R.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Hawke. John Anthony

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Ox.f'd, Henley)

    Rhys. Hon. C. A. U.

    Burman, J. B.

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Richardson. Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Herbert, S.(York,N.R.,Scar. & Wh'by)

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Hills. Major John Waller

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Rye, F. G.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester. City)

    Holt, Capt. H. P.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth.S.)

    Hope. Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Sandon, Lord

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Savery, S. S.

    Charteris. Brigadier-General J.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Scott, Sir Lesile (Liverp'l, Exchange)

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Christie, J. A.

    Hume-Williams, Sir W, Ellis

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Shepperson, E. W

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ.,Belfast)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine.C.)

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Smithers. Waldron

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cope, Major William

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Loder, J. de V.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Templeton, W. P.

    Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil)

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Thine, J. A.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    McLean, Major A.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Drew*, C.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Waddington, R.

    Edmondson. Major A. J.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    MacRobert. Alexander M.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Elveden, Viscount

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Wells, S. R.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Mason. Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K.

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Faile, Sir Bertram G.

    Meller, R. J.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Fermoy, Lord

    Merriman, F. B.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Fielden, E. B.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Finburgh, S.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Wlse, Sir Fredric

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. R. C. (Ayr)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Murchison, C. K.

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Neville, R. J.

    Wragg, Herbert

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Ganzoni. Sir John

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich)

    Gates, Percy

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrst'ld.)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Nuttall, Ellis

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

    Goff, Sir Park

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Major Hennessy and Captain Lord

    Grace, John

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Stanley.

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Penny, Frederick George

    CLAUSE 4.—(Offences.)
    Mr. SPEAKER: The next Amendment I select is that in the name of the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Morris)—in page 6, line 19, at the beginning, to insert the word "wilfully."
    Mr. HARRIS: I beg to move, in page 6, line 19, at the beginning, to insert the word "wilfully."
    The life of the trader nowadays is not an easy one. There are so many Regulations, that he is never sure when he will come up against a police officer, because he is unconsciously committing a breach of the Regulations. There are so many articles likely to be affected, that I think the right hon. Gentleman wants to be careful that a man is not punished when he is unconsciously contravening an order under this Bill. I do not attach importance to the word "wilfully," if the right hon. Gentleman with his ingenuity, and the advantage of his advisers, can suggest a better ward. I do think, considering the enormous number of articles contained in the ordinary shop of the grocer, fruiterer, baker and butcher, it is very hard on the retailer to have this Sword of Damocles hanging aver his head, with the local authority or the appropriate Department coming clown on him at any moment because he quite unconsciously, through no fault of his own, fails to carry out the Regulations requiring that the country of origin should be displayed over the fruit, the meat, or the manufactured article, as the case may be. Therefore, I suggest, in order to keep our prisons empty, and not to give occupation to the Police Courts, we should make these requirements as reasonable as possible.
    Mr. T. THOMSON: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: There is nothing novel in the way of offences in
    the Bill as it stands. We follow the precedent of all Merchandise Marks legislation, and particularly the precedent in the Act of 1887. It is clear that if this Amendment were carried, it would be impossible ever to get a conviction at all, because you would have to prove that the man had a guilty intent in committing the offence. The offence here is for contravening the specific conditions of Clause 1, or failing to comply with an Order. The moment that is done, an offence is committed, and it is only right that, the offence having been committed, it should be for the person charged to prove that he has acted in good faith. If he can prove that, he is safeguarded by a later Clause, but he, obviously, has committed the offence, and if you did what the hon. Gentleman suggests, you would never he able to get a conviction at all, because you would not be able to prove there was a guilty intent in the mind of the man. If this Bill is to he made a real instrument for its purpose, plainly we must follow the precedent of the Act of 1887.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSON: There are other Acts, for instance, the Food Adulteration Act, under which you summon the person who is supplying the goods, and he is not guilty at all, as he is in the hands of someone else. The ordinary trader would he dependent on the bona fides of a wholesaler, and I think some guarantee ought to be given to protect a trader who may be dealing honestly with people, and whose credit is otherwise taken away.
    Sir P. C UN LI FFE-L ISTER: If the hon. Member will look at Sub-section (5), he will see that that meets the point.
    Question put. "That the word 'wilfully' be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 107; Noes, 266.

    Division No. 485.]

    AYES.

    [6.58 p.m.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Cove, W. G.

    Forrest, W.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Gardner, I. P.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Davits, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Baker, Walter

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Gillett, George M.

    Barnes. A.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Gosling, Harry

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Day. Colonel Harry

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Bromfield, William

    Dennison, R.

    Greenall. D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Bromley, I.

    Duckworth, John

    Groves, T.

    Buchanan, G.

    Duncan, C.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Charleton, H. G.

    Dunnico, H.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Clowes, S.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Connolly, M.

    England, Colonel A.

    Hardie, George D.

    Harris, Percy A.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Oliver, George Harold

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Hayday, Arthur

    Palin, John Henry

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Paling, W.

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Potts, John S.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Purcell, A. A.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee]

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Townend, A. E.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Riley, Ben

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Ritson, J.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Kelly, W. T.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Eiland)

    Westwood, J.

    Kennedy, T.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Whiteley, W.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Lawson, John James

    Scurr, John

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Lee, F.

    Sexton, James

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Lowth, T.

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Lunn, William

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Windsor, Walter

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    March, S,

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Sir Robert Hutchison and Major

    Montague, Frederick

    Stamford, T. W.

    Owen.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hanbury, C.

    Albery, Irving James

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S

    Cope. Major William

    Hartington, Marguess of

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth. Kennington)

    Apsley, Lord

    Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Henderson, Capt. R R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Heneago, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Balniel, Lord

    Davidson, J. (Hertf'd. Hemel Hempst'd)

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Bennett, A. J.

    Drewe. C.

    Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Berry, Sir George

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Bethel, A.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Ellis, R. G.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Eiveden, viscount

    Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Blundell, F. N.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    lliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Falls, Sir Bertram G.

    Kindersley, Major Guy M.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Fermoy, Lord

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Fielden, E. B.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Finburgh, S.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon, George R.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks,Newb'y)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Burman, J. B.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis'E.

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Mecdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Gates, Percy

    McLean, Major A

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Macmllian, Captain H.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Grace, John

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Cassels, J. D.

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth.S.)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.)

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Gtyn K.

    Christie, J. A.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Meller, R. J.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Merriman, F. B.

    294

    295

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. ft. (Ayr)

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-col. J. T. C.

    Rye, F. G.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Waddington, R.

    Murchlson, C. K.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Sandon, Lord

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Savery, S. S.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

    Wells, S. R.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Sinclair. Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Beifst)

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Perring, Sir William George

    Skelton, A. N.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine.C.)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Pielou, D. P.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Pilditch. Sir Philip

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Radford, E. A.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, statyb'ge & Hyde)

    Rains. W.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Wragg, Herbert

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Yerburgh. Major Robert D. T.

    Held, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Remer, J. R.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Remnant, Sir James

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Major Hennessy and Captain

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Bowyer.

    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 7, line 1, to leave out the words, "by a person being a wholesale dealer."
    This is really a consequential Amendment. It seems reasonable that whoever sells wholesale, whether he be a wholesaler or not, if he has undertaken a, sale for re-export should have the benefit of being free under Sub-section (2).
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 7, line 21, to leave out the words "verbal description" and to insert instead thereof the words "means of any written matter."
    I gave an undertaking that I would consider what is the most correct description and the right wording to express in Sub-section (2). I am advised that "by means of any written matter" is right.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 7, line 26, to leave out the words "guilty of an offence against the principal" and to insert instead thereof the words "deemed to have acted in contravention of an Order in Council made under this."
    This is also a consequential Amendment. The House will remember that penalties under the principal Act were reduced for
    296
    offences under this Act. Consequently, this Amendment has to be made.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 7, line 29, to leave out the words "such Order in Council shall come into force," and to insert instead thereof the words "the draft of the Order is laid before Parliament."
    This Amendment is to provide the date after which advertisements must comply with Sub-section (2). Under the Bill, as drafted, it would net be an offence to use advertisements which were in stock at the time the Order came into force, but, as the House will observe, an Order which is made in draft has to lie for 20 Parliamentary days, and cannot come into force until three months later. Obviously it would be unreasonable that a person should have all tills time in which to manufacture a large number of new advertisements wh-.ch he knew ought to be marked, but which would escape if they were manufactured during that time. He ought not to have a period of time within which he could manufacture new advertisements.
    Mr. WEBB: There is no objection to the intention of the right hors. Gentleman, because there, is no desire to authorise people to prepare advertisements if they know that an Order in Council is going to be made. One would not want

    297
    to authorise people to prepare new advertisements which would not be in order when the Order comes into force. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has adequately considered the amount of Lime it, takes to make these advertisements? Usually we speak about putting an advertisement in a newspaper as a matter done instantly, or if it be a matter of printing, you think about the next day. Consequently, I should not object to the right hon. Gentleman's words if that was all that was requested. The advertisement must be made before the draft Order comes into force. That means, I submit, that the making of the advertisement must have been completed before. It is not that the Order for the making of the advertisement shall have been given before, because this word "advertise" covers not merely a printed advertisement in the morning newspapers; not merely a printed circular prepared and sent out by the firms concerned, but it covers also, let us say, those permanent advertisements in tin or enamelled iron, or whatever it is, at the railway station. It covers all sorts of quasi-permanent advertisements which take a long time to make and which have to be ordered and then prepared.
    Surely the morality of the subject is this, that we do not want in any way any new advertisements to he begun to be made after this notice of the draft Order in Council has been issued. How about the advertisements on enamelled tin or something like that for which the order is given a month before, and which is still in process of being made, and which will not be completed until after a day or two or a week or two after the draft Order has been made? Is that man guilty of an offence because he places an order in the ordinary course of business for an advertisement to be made, and the making has not been completed in time for the draft Order? That may seem an exceptional case, but take for instance Christmas advertisements. The right hon. Gentleman is probably aware that those were ordered some time ago. The catalogue cannot be done over night. Surely he is not going to make it an offence for a man to use an advertisement if he had it ordered and it was begun long before the draft Order. He has quite rightly protected the enamel iron
    298
    things which we see on our railway stations. If they were made before the Order was made, it will not be an offence using them until they wear out. They will go on; they can be shown till they have to be renewed. You cannot make those makers forfeit the whole value. Is he going to say that the order for the permanent advertisement which was given before the draft Order was made, which might have been given before actually the Committee began to consider the matter at ail. Is he going to tell that man to lose the value of that advertisement, or is he going to make some equitable provision in regard to it? The statute is peremptory; he is guilty of an offence against the Order in Council. He may quite innocently have ordered some advertisement to be made, the making of which could not he completed by the time the draft Order is laid. It is not my business to save the right hon. Gentleman from making his Act more unfair and more troublesome and expensive to the industry of this country than we assert that it will be. It is not my business to save him from an administrative blunder of this kind. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider between now and the time when the Bill reaches another place some method of meeting the case of firms who have given orders for advertisements but those advertisements are not made until after the draft Order is published?
    Captain BENN: We are creating a new offence for which we can be punished. What is the meaning of the word "advertisement"? For example, there is a very large trade Press in this country, and it deals with very phase of retail and wholesale trade. Advertisements are published in these papers, are printed and paid for and sometimes illustrated. There is also a great deal of editorial matter in the nature of advertisements. The editor or someone else will write an article or paragraph describing the merits of some particular goods. That is undoubtedly in the nature of advertisement. Suppose that the writer describes some article but does not insert the necessary formula as required by the Order. Will he be punishable for having contravened the rule that the advertisement must contain the words ordered by the Committee? It is a question to which I would be glad to have an answer, because it would be

    299
    a very serious thing indeed if there were imposed on anyone who wrote about a trade article by way of advertisement, an obligation to be familiar with the Order in Council and to comply with it.
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise at present, because this Amendment deals only with the time.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The four lines which we are discussing refer to advertising a particular brand, or goods of a particular make. Therefore the proposal is very limited. All that we say is, that if an Order is made that the goods must be marked, and then a person advertises a particular brand of goods, whether by means of an illustration or by means of any written matter, specifying the precise article—it might be Michelin tyres—the advertisement must contain an indication that the goods are "foreign" or "Empire." All that has to be done is that on the advertisement there is to appear the word "foreign." I do not think there would be the least difficulty in the case where, as the right hon. Gentleman said, an enamelled sign is in course of construction and will not be completed for a fortnight. There would not be the least difficulty in putting the word "foreign" on the enamelled sign which is still going to take another fortnight to complete. The Report of the Committee has to be published, and everyone interested in the matter would have been first of all concerned with the inquiry, and would be au fait with everything that has happened in the trade. It is only after the Report of the Committee has been published that the appropriate Department is entitled to make an Order and to lay an Order. Therefore, there would have been ample notice, and if we did not fix, as a limit, the date of the laying of the draft Order, we really should he giving to everyone an opportunity, indeed would he inviting them, to get out a great many advertisements of different kinds without that indication of origin which the Order requires.
    Mr. HARRIS: I hope that the House will not accept this Amendment. It is now quite clear how really ignorant the President of the Board of Trade is about the business and trade of the country.
    300
    He has gone out of his way to quote Michelin. He had not heard of enamelled signs. That is beyond the high-brow attitude of a typical Tory Minister. He is not interested in such mundane things. The enamelled sign is made by a very expensive process. I see below me the hon. Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton), who, as an expert in trade, knows that enamelled signs are very expensive things to make and to affix. Very large contracts are made by advertising firms all over the country. Take the case of Michelin tyres. Michelin advertisements are all over the country, and the firm publishes a very useful and valuable guide. I do not believe that that guide cover is marked with the country of origin. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman thinks that a great crime. If you are to introduce into this country this novel kind of legislation, and if you require that every advertisement seen in the country should also be a lesson in geography for the citizen—
    Sir R. HALL: Hear, hear!
    Mr. HARRIS: The hon. and gallant Member says, "Hear, hear!" His motto is, "Hang the expense!" He does not care how much he pays for his patriotism. The proposal of the Minister might disorganise all the big contracts of firms that carry out this business, and then the right hon. Gentleman comes along and says, "Alter the sign." The result of this proposal would be to destroy all this valuable advertising matter. There is an article called the Ford car, and there are people who like it. The right hon. Gentleman probably thinks it is very unpatriotic to buy Ford cars. They are advertised all over the country by enamelled signs. Under this Bill they will have to bear in large letters. "Component parts manufactured in America." That will mean the destruction of the signs or the dragging of Mr. Ford, or Mr. Michelin, or other foreign people, before the police courts, because, forsooth, they have broken a law created through the ignorance of the President of the Board of Trade in matters of trade.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to he left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 106; Noes, 258.

    Division No. 486.]

    AYES.

    [7.27 p.m.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Robinson, sir T. (Lancs., Stratford)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hayday, Arthur

    Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hayes, John Henry

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Baker, Walter

    Hirst, G. H.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Barnes, A.

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Scurr, John

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Sexton, James

    Bromfield, William

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Bromley, J.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Buchanan, G.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Clowes, S.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Connolly, M.

    Kennedy, T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Cove, W. G.

    Lansbury, George

    Stephen, Campbell

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sullivan, J.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lawson, John James

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Lee, F.

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lowth, T.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lunn, William

    Townend, A. E.

    Dennison, R.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Duckworth, John

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Dunnico, H.

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Westwood, J.

    England, Colonel A.

    March, S.

    Whiteley, W.

    Forrest, W.

    Maxton, James

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Gardner, J. P.

    Montague, Frederick

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gosling, Harry

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Owen, Major G.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Groves, T.

    Paling, W.

    Windsor, Walter

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Potts, John S.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Purcell, A. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T.

    Hardie, George D.

    Riley, Ben

    Henderson.

    Harris, Percy A.

    Ritson, J.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Fermoy, Lord

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Fielden, E. B.

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Campbell, E. T.

    Finburgh, S.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Cassels, J. D.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Apsley, Lord

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col Francis E.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Christie, J. A.

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Gates, Percy

    Balniel, Lord

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Grace, John

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Bennett, A. J.

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Berry, Sir George

    Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Bethel, A.

    Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

    Blundell, F. N.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Davies, Maj, Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Hanbury, C.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Drewe, C.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

    Burman, J. B.

    Elveden, Viscount.

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    302

    303

    Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Murchison, C. K.

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Neville, R. J.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Hutchison, G. A. Clark(Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Perring, Sir William George

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Kidd, J. (Linilthgow)

    Pleiou, D. P.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Tinne, J. A.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Radford, E. A.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Raine, W.

    Waddington, R.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Remer, J. R.

    Watson, sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

    Remnant, Sir James

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Wells, S. R.

    McLean, Major A.

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Macmillan Captain H.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Ropner, Major L.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemoutn)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Rye, F. G.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Margesson, Capt. D.

    Sandon, Lord

    Womersley, W. J.

    Mason, Lieut. Col. Glyn K.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Meller, R. J.

    Savery, S. S.

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Merriman, F. B.

    Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

    Wragg, Herbert

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Major Cope and Captain Bowyer.

    Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.
    Miss LAWRENCE: I beg to move, in page 7, line 30, at the end, to insert the words
    "and shall not apply to the distribution of general trade catalogues or price lists."
    I want hon. Members to read Subsection (2) of Clause 4 as the description of an offence for which people can be punished. It is as follows:
    "If any person advertises or offers for sale as being goods of a particular brand or make or otherwise under a specific designation, whether by means of an illustration or by verbal description, any imported goods of a class or description to which an Order in Council ender this Act applies, he shall, if he does not include in the advertisement or offer an indication of the origin of the goods, and subject to the provisions of this Section, be guilty of an offence against the principal Act."
    It is difficult to understand what is meant by "offering for sale under a specific designation by means of an illustration." The original Bill included the words which are the subject of my
    304
    Amendment and provided that trade catalogues should be exempt. That provision was put in by the Minister. There then arose in Committee a very interesting discussion, very subtle—almost metaphysical in its subtlety—as to whether certain items in a trade catalogue might not he of the same nature as the advertisements which are forbidden. The President of the Board of Trade began by a statement with which we all felt fully in agreement, namely that the drafting of a Bill of this kind was rather difficult. The right hon. Gentleman said that we were not to quarrel with the Parliamentary draftsman, who was doing his best, and that anybody attempting to draft this Bill would find it rather difficult. That was what I would call a cri de cœur on the part of the right hon. Gentleman. Then he went on to say that what he meant was that if there was a general description of a trade category and a general picture, not too accurate, not too much like the particular article concerned, it would then be all right and the person issuing it would not be

    305
    guilty of any offence. But if the picture was so accurate that you could recognise the article from the picture, then, said the right hon. Gentleman, if that article was foreign an offence would be committed. He explained at some length the case of clocks. He said we wanted to cover the typical case of the clock. Quite obviously, he pointed out, the purchaser, if he had an accurate picture of the clock, would be buying the clock from the catalogue in the same way as he might buy it across the counter. Then the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "We do not want to cover the sort of picture of a clock which is not the clock the man is going to buy at all but is a sort of sign."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Standing Committee B), 21st July, 1926; col. 744.]
    All this would be very amusing if we were dealing with a parlour game, but we are dealing with an offence—with an act for which a man can be punished. We are told that if, for instance, a man sells clocks by calalogue, and the picture illustrating the clock is so faithful that you can identify the foreign clock from the picture that is offering for sale by means of a specific illustration and is punishable. If, on the other hand, the picture is very bad, if it is a sort of sign of a clock, like the sign on an inn, then the retailer is perfectly free from blame and need not attach the word "foreign" to his clocks. It is no parlour game for the retailer who may be punished for making a mistake. We are here dealing with documents which are very bulky. These great trade calatogues contain hundreds of pictures. If they are selling foreign goods and the pictures are so bad as to be merely symbofs, then the person issuing the catalogue is all right. If the picture is accurate, so that one can recognise the particular foreign article described, then an offence has been, committed. I submit that it is uncommonly hard to punish retailers for making an error or for not being able to realise such a subtle distinction as this. It would be more reasonable to have trade catalogues either in or out of the Bill. To make this distinction between what is a specific picture and what is not a specific picture, to put it into a great Act of Parliament and to have unfortunate persons punished if they make a mistake as regards that distinction, is giving too much trouble to a very estimable class
    306
    of persons. I do not feel very much frightened about this description. It is so complex and confusing that I do not believe anybody will ever take any action under it. But even though that may be so, it seems a pity to put into an Act of Parliament a provision which is almost un-understandable, and will never be enforced, and to make the non-observance of that provision an act punishable as a crime by law.
    Mr. NAYLOR: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I feel the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill does not realise the practical difficulties which will arise if this Clause is left in its present form and if trade catalogues are included in the penalties laid down. I do not fear that the authors of catalogues are likely to be prosecuted because I feel it will be possible for them to make the necessary alterations when the time comes. But I feel that considerable expense will be imposed on those who require catalogues in making the necessary alterations after those catalogues have been prepared. The master printers and working printers of the country will be glad if the Government do not accept the Amendment. It will mean more work for them if expensive alterations have to be made in consequence of the shortness of the time allowed to those who require these catalogues. I am not friendly to the Bill nor to the Government which is promoting it, but with a desire to see that the Government do not make a serious mistake in an important detail, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am a little surprised at this Amendment being moved from the Opposition Benches because the Amendment to include trade catalogues was origiNally moved by the right hon. Member for Seaham. (Mr. Sidney Webb) who argued conclusively that if sale by advertisement was to be dealt with then trade catalogues ought to be dealt with. He was supported by the hon. Member for Paddington (Sir W. Perring), who spoke as representing the view of the retailers, and with rather more authority than the hon. Lady. I accepted on its merits the view put forward by the right hon. member for Seaham and the hon. Member for

    307
    Paddington and after a full discussion it was agreed unanimously—certainly there was no division on it—in Committee that this was the right and the fair thing to do. I still find myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Seaham and the hon. Member for Paddington and I am not prepared to reject now the Amendment I accepted then.
    Mr. MONTAGUE: I cannot help feeling that the replies of the President of the Board of Trade to the points which have been raised in connection with this Clause of the Bill indicate the extraordinary niggling and absurd character of the Bill. It may be a matter of logic that advertisements in trade catalogues should be included in the Bill, but that is the logic of absurdity because the Bill itself is of an absurd character. If proposals of this kind had been brought forward in connection with some Measure of a Socialistic character, if it had been a question of a Government Department managing, taking over or controlling an industry, we should have had the right hon. Member himself and every Member on the benches opposite talking about red tape and niggling interference with trade and industry. We of the Labour party who are Socialists are always being charged with being persons who want to interfere with private enterprise, but in this Bill we have, not interference with private enterprise on broad lines to real national advantage, but interference of the most niggling description which is bound to handicap the progress of trade and industry to a very great degree indeed.
    The Amendment proposes to exempt trade catalogues and price lists. I know something about the production of trade catalogues and price lists, and I know that their production includes a large number of processes. It involves technical questions that can only he dealt with in an advertising office. Take, for instance, the production of a composite illustration in a trade catalogue. You will have the catalogue describing the prices and quality of a number of articles, but all the articles will be illustrated together in a composite illustration. Take a simple instance, that of ladies' underclothing. You will probably have a whole-page illustration showing the various kinds of underclothing
    308
    in actual wear. How are you going to deal with a point of this kind in regard to such a composite illustration in a trade catalogue? Are you going to label every article illustrated with its place of origin in the illustration itself, or are you going to have reference numbers so that a reader of the price list may be able to refer to the note in the catalogue in order to see where the silk stocking, or the shoe, or whatever it may be, was produced? The point is, that all these things are going to be tremendously difficult. It is not impossible, of course, to put any number of rods in delicate machinery and to upset the machinery. It is quite possible to do that, but, surely, the President of the Board of Trade and the Board of Trade itself should be the last people in the world to want to throw sand into the machinery, affecting trade and the development and prosperity of this country. It is all extremely niggling and, if not actually unworkable, only workable at the expense of industry itself.
    Mr. BARNES: The President of the Board of Trade is quite right when he refers to the fact that the right hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) drew attention to this difficulty in the Committee stage. He will at least agree that we have been consistent all the way through in regard to this advertising difficulty in so far that, both in the House and upstairs, we opposed the inclusion of advertising generally under the provisions of this Bill. The difficulty is not fully apparent here this evening. I do not suppose that the average trader of this country, which depends on advertising over large populations through the post, is aware of the difficulties involved unless this Amendment is accepted. But when the departmental stores and other merchants who issue catalogues covering a large variety of goods come to make up their trade catalogues in the future, then the full significance of the Bill will begin to impress them and opposition will steadily develop against this Clause. Take, for instance, in the case of the jewellery trade, which advertises extensively a variety of commodities, such articles as a toilet set or a manicure set. In the catalogue there is advertised a toilet set or a manicure set. The number of articles composing it may number half a dozen or a dozen different articles.

    309
    The composite parts of the articles may come from different parts of the world. There may be ivory from one part of the world, tortoiseshell from another, while the bristles of a brush may come from some other country. Altogether there may be half a dozen different countries involved in the make-up of these articles included in a composite toilet or manicure set. How are they going to be advertised in a trade catalogue? The merchant is in a ridiculous position. The description tends to make the advertisement absurd. Not only that, but the greater part of the labour which is applied in making and assembling these goods will be British although many of the materials that are necessary are probably impossible of production in this country.
    All the absurdities of this kind of description will become clear to the trader and to the consumer when we come to the description of such articles as these in a trade catalogue. The average business man, who is intent on building up his trade, does not worry primarily about Acts of Parliament. He cannot follow all these various Regulations that Committees at the Board of Trade will he passing. Commerce to-day is so competitive that it demands the whole attention of a buyer or manager in a particular section of industry and his attention cannot be diverted from the markets and the movement of taste in order to follow these Government Regulations. One cannot expect the manager of a department developing new designs or the master printer to keep himself au fait with all these various Regulations. It will be full of difficulty. Another difficulty will be that many of these trade catalogues are in circulation over quite a long period. There are stock items, leading lines and standard lines, that do not vary from year to year. On the other hand, fresh designs are always being included in fresh catalogues. Now the President of the Board of Trade in other parts of the Bill has made a provision whereby any trade catalogue circulated before the Bill does not contravene the Regulation, but other catalogues do so. The result may be that you will have two catalogues issued by the same firm, one of which comes under the Regulations. It only requires detailed examination of this Bill to see that its
    310
    ultimate effect cannot possibly benefit British trade, but is injurious in all its results.
    Mr. WEBB: The President of the Board of Trade has accused me of inconsistency. I do not quite admit it, but it is not worth going into because it is impossible to carry on the discussion of this Bill without falling into inconsistencies. I can give him several instances in his own case.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think the right hon. Member supported it on its merits.
    Mr. WEBB: It is quite true that in Committee I did attempt to assist the right hon. Gentleman on this point, but the trouble is that one cannot deal with each part of this extraordinary Bill without taking into account all the other parts. At that time when we were talking about this Clause, Clause 4, in Committee there was also Clause 8 which included a provision allowing catalogues to remain in force for one year. He has not only knocked that out, but he has ante-dated the period back to the publication of the draft Order. That has a great bearing on these trade catalogues. These catalogues take months to prepare and if it is going to be an offence to issue that trade catalogue on the day on which the draft Order is made it will mean that a firm will become a criminal by issuing a catalogue which it began to prepare a long time before. You cannot get up one of these great trade catalogues with hundreds of pages in a short time. This Clause will penalise the issue of that catalogue on the very day that the draft Order is laid before the House. All we say is that the right hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. He cannot make it a penal offence to issue a catalogue which does not supply one with every detail and at the same time go back from his original proposition that the Bill should not apply to trade catalogues. He himself gave very good reasons why the Bill should not apply to trade catalogues. We then began to discuss the question of illustrations. I suppose we lost ourselves so much over our artistic considerations in regard to the illustrations that we forgot the contention that it was impossible to require the proprietors of one of these huge trade catalogues to note down that

    311
    such and such a thing was English, or foreign, or Part I, or Part the other. If you consider the case of an elaborate toilet set it will be necessary to say that part of it is foreign, part of it is British Empire, and so on. If you advertise it as a British toilet set, you must specify the origin of its parts. Either you are going to put this difficulty in the way of those who issue these big trade catalogues, or, on the other hand, you are going to give these people who issue these catalogues an advantage which is seriously resisted by the retail traders. I do not see how you can get out of it by this Clause, which will work unjustly. Therefore, in spite of the assistance I gave the right hon. Gentleman in Committee, I have no hesitation in voting for the Amendment.
    Mr. HARRIS: I want to congratulate the President of the Board of Trade on the most effective argument which he has produced this afternoon. He spoke of the attitude of my right hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb), but all my right hon. Friend was doing was to carry the Bill to its logical absurdity. It is not fair that the man who sells his
    goods in a shop window shall be obliged to brand his articles, while the man who sells the self-same thing in a catalogue shall not be required to brand them. But, in effect, this proposal will very much disorganise trade, Some of these big business people spend something like £10,000 in producing their catalogues. They will be penalised by this Bill. I shall vote for the Amendment unless I get some assurance that the right hon. Gentleman has some practical proposal to get over this difficulty. It might be possible in another place to move an Amendment that in regard to trade catalogues these requirements should apply for 12 months, because these catalogues are produced annually. They have to be arranged many months ahead because of the collection of all of the great number of blocks and trade advertisements. If we cannot get some assurance that the right hon. Gentleman has some plan to protect the trade from such an immense waste of money, I shall vote in favour of this Amendment.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 102; Noes, 228.

    Division No. 487.]

    AYES.

    [8.6 p.m.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Purcell, A. A.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hardie, George D.

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Baker, Walter

    Harris, Percy A.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Barnes, A.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Riley, Ben

    Batey, Joseph

    Hayday, Arthur

    Ritson, J.

    Bromfield, William

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Robinson. W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Bromley, J.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Sakiatvala, Shapurji

    Buchanan, G.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Scurr, John

    Clowes, S.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Sexton, James

    Cluse, W. S.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Connolly, M.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Cove, W. G.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Kennedy, T.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lansbury, George

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lawson, John James

    Thorne. W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lee, F.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lindley, F, W.

    Townend, A. E.

    Dennison, R.

    Lowth, T.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. O. (Rhondda)

    Duckworth, John

    Lunn, William

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Dunnico, H.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Westwood, J.

    England, Colonel A.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Whiteley, W.

    Forrest, W.

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Gardner, J. P.

    March, S.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Maxton, James

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gosling, Harry

    Montague, Frederick

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Owen, Major G.

    Windsor, Walter

    Groves, T.

    Palin, John Henry

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Paling, W.

    Halt. F. (York. W. R. Normanton)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Potts, John S.

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Apsley, Lord

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Gates, Percy

    Perring, Sir William George

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Goff, Sir Park

    Pielou, D. P.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Grace, John

    Price, Major C. W M.

    Balniel, Lord

    Graham, Frederick F, (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Radford, E. A.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Raine, W,

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Bennett, A. J.

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

    Remer, J. R.

    Berry, Sir George

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Bethel, A.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. Eastbourne)

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Birchall, Major J. Dear man

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Hanbury, C.

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

    Blundell, F. N.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Ropner, Major L.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Hartingtan, Marquess of

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Rye, F. G.

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Haslam, Henry C

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Sandon, Lord

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Savory, S. S.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Shepporson, E. W.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Burman, J. B.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hudson, R. s. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteb'n)

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Freser

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Templcton, W. P.

    Christie. J. A.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Thom, Lt. Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Churchman. Sir Arthur C.

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Thomson, F, C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Tinne, J. A.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Cope, Major William

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. sir George L.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Waddington, R.

    Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Macdonald. R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

    McLean, Major A,

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D, Steel-

    Wells, S. R.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Drewe, C.

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Meller, R. J.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

    Ellis, R. G.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Falle, sir Bertram G.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. H. (Ayr)

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Fermoy, Lord

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Finburgh, S.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Wragg, Herbert

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Murchison, C. K.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Neville, R. J.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C, (Cambridge)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Captain Viscount Curzon and Captain Margesson.

    Mr. HARRIS: I beg to move, in page 7, line 31, to leave out Sub-section (3).
    314
    "Hope springs eternal," and I hope that at last we shall get some concession from the right hon. Gentleman, who has

    315
    gone to consult his advisers. I feel that this Sub-section is quite superfluous and unnecessary. It requires that not only should the ordinary articles of commerce be branded with their countries of origin, but also anything that forms a distinguishable part. Take the dozens of parts that go to make a motor car and that are easily distinguishable—the carburettor, the tyres, the lamps, the leather, and all the component parts. If they all have to be branded with their country of origin, then the motor car will indeed be a lesson in geography of all over the world. You may have French tyres, American magnetos, German carburettors, foreign leather, and all the various parts of the car covered with geographical marks which will make the car the laughing-stock of the world. It will not help trade or business. I am glad to see the benevolent personality of the Parliamentary Secretary who is always open to reason and to helping the Bill through by making reasonable concessions. Why should not this question of considering whether it is necessary to brand these parts with their country of origin be left to the Committee? It should not be necessary to lay it down in the Bill that it should be necessary to brand these parts with their country of origin. It is quite clear that you are not going to help British trade, which depends on the import of raw materials and hundreds of semi-manufactured articles. It will handicap industry if a British article has to be partly branded German, French, or Italian, because a component part, which is easily distinguishable, is made abroad. The Committees I think are the best judges to decide whether component parts should be branded. I do not think it should he laid down specifically in the Bill.
    Sir ROBERT HUTCHISON: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: If we are to make this admirable Bill as workable as it should he, and as it is intended it should
    be, why should be exclude articles which are imported in order to make up the complete article? Any number of articles may be imported into this country which make up another article, and where they can be easily marked they should be marked to carry out the sense and intention of the Bill. If it is difficult to mark them, if they are not easily marked, an Order will not be made by the Committee. Therefore, without further labouring the question, I ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.
    Mr. MONTAGUE: I want to put one consideration to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade. A Bill of this character ought to have some purpose, some objective. The purpose of this Merchandise Marks Bill is to enable a purchaser to know where the articles come from, in order that if he desires to purchase Empire goods or British made goods he can do so, and thus express his patriotism in the goods he buys. I want to know whether the Parliamentary Secretary really expects that a person buying a motor ear is going to be influenced by the number of marks of origin on the particular motor car. There may he hundreds of different marks of origin, and in what way are these marks going to influence h s judgment? Surely the object of the Bill should be something Imperial, and I fail to see how this marking of every component part of an intricate article is going to effect the purpose that the Bill is supposed to achieve.
    Mr. PALING: Are we going to have an answer to all these questions? Is it sufficient for the Parliamentary Secretary to say that there is a good and sufficient reason for passing the Bill, and that when all these questions are asked he should sit still and take notice. It is not treating the House with much consideration.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 215; Noes, 102.

    Division No. 488.]

    AYES.

    [8.20 p.m.

    Acland Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Apsley, Lord

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Ashley, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Balniel, Lord

    Albery, Irving James

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Applin, Colonel R V. K.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Bennett, A. J.

    Berry, Sir George

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Bethel, A.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Pielou, D. P.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Radford, E. A.

    Blundell, F. N.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Raine, W

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Hanbury, C.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. w.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Renter, J. R.

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Ropner, Major L.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. v. L. (Bootle)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Rye, F. G.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey. Farnham)

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Sandeman, A, Stewart

    Burman, J. B.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Sandon, Lord

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Savery, S. S.

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hudson, Capt. A. u. M. (Hackney, N)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G, F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Christie, J. A.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Cope, Major William

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. sir George L.

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Templeton, W. P.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Thom, Lt. Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    MacAndrew. Major Charles Glen

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Macdonald, R. [Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Tinne, J. A.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    McLean, Major A.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Waddington, R.

    Drewe, C.

    Mac Robert, Alexander M.

    Wallace, captain D. E.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Maitland, sir Arthur D. steel-

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Waterhouse. Captain Charles

    Ellis, R. G.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Falle, Sir Bertram G

    Meller, R. J.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Merriman, F. B.

    Wells, S. R.

    Finburgh, S.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Neville, R. J.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Gates, Percy

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Wragg, Herbert

    Goff, Sir Park

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Grace, John

    Penny, Frederick George

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Captain Viscount Curzon and

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Perring, Sir William George

    Captain Margesson.

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Canoock)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Gardner, J. P.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Baker, Walter

    Dalton, Hugh

    Gosling, Harry

    Barnes, A.

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Batey, Joseph

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Groves, T.

    Bromfield, William

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Bromley, J.

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Buchanan, G.

    Dennison, R.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Duckworth, John

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Clowes, S.

    Dunnico, H.

    Hardie, George D.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Harris, Percy A.

    Connolly, M.

    England, Colonel A,

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Cove, W. G.

    Forrest, W.

    Hayday, Arthur

    318

    319

    Hayes, John Henry

    Montague, Frederick

    Stamford, T. W.

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Stephen, Campbell

    Hirst, G. H.

    Palin, John Henry

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Paling, W.

    Thorne, G. R, (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Potts, John S.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Purcell, A. A.

    Townend, A. E.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Kennedy, T.

    Riley, Ben

    Westwood, J.

    Lansbury, George

    Ritson, J.

    Whiteley, W.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Lawson, John James

    Sakiatvala, Shapurji

    Williams, C, P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Lee, F.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Scurr, John

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Lowth, T.

    Sexton, James

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Lunn, William

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Windsor, Walter

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    March, S.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Maxton, James

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Sir Robert Hutchison and Major

    Owen.

    Further Amendment made: In page 8, line 7, leave cut the words "guilty of an offence against the principal," and insert instead thereof the words
    "deemed to have acted in contravention of an Order in Council made under this."—[Sir B. Chadwick.]
    Mr. WEBB: I beg to move, in page 8, line 11, to leave out the word "all."
    This is a very technical Amendment. The Clause provides that a person shall not be treated as being guilty of an offence against the principal Act if he proves that he has taken all reasonable precautions against committing such an offence. The Amendment I move is to take out the word "all." It is quite right that he should have to show he had taken all precautions which it is reasonable to take, but that is not the same thing as taking all reasonable precautions. No doubt the words in the Clause are strictly in accordance with Parliamentary draftsmanship, but it must be remembered that this a penal Bill. If I were an unfortunate victim of this Bill I might be able to show that I had taken all precautions which it was reasonable to take, but if it were shown that there was another one which was in itself reasonable and which I could have taken, then, according to the strict wording of this Sub-section, I should not be held innocent.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I must say I cannot quite follow the right hon. Gentleman in his fine distinction. If the Amendment means that a person ought to take some care, but need not exercise all the care that is necessary, then I do
    320
    not approve of his Amendment. He said in his very short speech that the words should be "having taken reasonable precautions," but I do not think it is at very great at infliction to ask that he should take "all reasonable precautions," and I cannot accept the Amendment.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I do not think the hon. Gentleman has quite answered the point. It is not so technical as my right hon. Friend would have us believe it to be. Take the case of a man who deals in small parts of motor cars and small parts of wireless apparatus. There may be 20, 30, or even 40 small items which go towards building up one machine, and if a trader takes reasonable precautions to avoid clashing with the law, he ought not to be liable to prosecution in respect of one small precaution which he has inadvertently neglected to observe. This is a complicated Bill, not such a brilliant and wonderful Bill as the hon. Member suggested it was a few moments ago, and here, I think, he might very well exercise some discretion in favour of assisting traders who honestly desire to observe the law to the best of their ability. It ought to be sufficient if traders are taking reasonable precautions without insisting upon all reasonable precautions, which may develop into unreasonable precautions, if this small word of three letters is allowed to remain. I would like the hon. Gentleman to tell us exactly what he conceives to be the Building principle for a trader who is expected to take all reasonable precautions, with all this delicate machinery of orders and Bills and so forth, when he is engaged in the performance of his

    321
    normal business duties. I think the hon. Gentleman ought to be willing to accept the Amendment, and leave it to the wisdom, honesty and sincerity of the average British trader to do the right thing, and give effect to what he conceives to be the law.
    Mr. PALING: Answer that!
    Question put, "That the word 'all' stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 224; Noes, 94.

    Division No. 223.]

    AYES

    [7.07 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Finburgh, S.

    Welter, R. J.

    Albery, Irving James

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Forrest, W.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Apsley, Lord

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Fremantle, Lt.-Cot. Francis E.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Neville, R. J.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Balniel, Lord

    Gates, Percy

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Goff, Sir Park

    Penny, Frederick George

    Bethel, A.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Grace, John

    Perring, Sir William George

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Plelou, D. P.

    Blundell, F. N.

    Greenall, Edward C (City of London)

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.)

    Radford, E. A.

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Raine, W.

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Hammersley, S, S.

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Hanbury, C.

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Remer, J. R.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Broun-Lindsay. Major H.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stratford)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Rungles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Burman, J. B.

    Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxl'd, Henley)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Rye, F. G.

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Cassels, J. D.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Sandon, Lord

    Cayzor, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

    Savery, S. S.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k. Nun.)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Charteris, Briqadler-General J.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng, Universities)

    Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kine'dine, C.)

    Christie, J. A.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Cope, Major William

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Strcatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Templeton, W. P.

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Locker-Lampson, Com- O. (Handsw'th)

    Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Tinne, J. A.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Vauqhan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Drewe, C.

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Waddington, R.

    Duckworth, John

    McLean, Major A.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Ellis, R. G.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Elveden, Viscount

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    England, Colonel A.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Wells, S. R.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Whcler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Fermoy, Lord

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Captain Lord Stanley and Captain

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Wragg, Herbert

    Viscount Curzon.

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Start., Cannock)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hayday, Arthur

    Scrymgcour, E.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Scurr, John

    Baker, Walter

    Hirst, G. H.

    Sexton, James

    Barnes, A.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Batey, Joseph

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Bromfield, William

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith. H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Bromley, J.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Buchanan, G.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Charleton, H. C.

    Kennedy, T.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Clowes, S.

    Lansbury, George

    Stamford, T. W.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Stephen, Campbell

    Connolly, M.

    Lawson, John James

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Cove, W. G.

    Lee, F.

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish universities)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lowth, T.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Lunn, William

    Townend, A. E.

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westh ghton)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Day, Colonel Harry

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Westwood, J.

    Dennison, R.

    March, S.

    Whiteley, W.

    Dunnice, H.

    Maxton, James

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Gardner, J. P.

    Montague, Frederick

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Gosling, Harry

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Paling, W.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Groves, T.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Windsor, Walter

    Grundy, T. W.

    Potts, John S.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Purcell, A. A.

    Hall, G H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.6—

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Riley, Ben

    Mr. Hayes and Mr. Charles

    Hardie, George D.

    Ritson, J.

    Fdwards.

    Harris, Percy A.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, w. R., Elland)

    CLAUSE 5.—(Power of employer to exempt himself from penalty on conviction of the actual offender.)
    Amendment made: In page 8, line 23, leave out the words "an offence against," and insert instead thereof the words
    "the offence of having acted in contravention of or failing to comply with the provisions of this Act or any Order in Council made under."—[Mr. Barnes.]
    Miss LAWRENCE: I beg to move, in page 8, line 32, to leave out the words "execution of this Act," and to insert instead thereof the words "compliance with the provisions of this Act or of the Order."
    I understand that this Amendment will be accepted.
    Mr. MARCH: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. WEBB: I beg to move, in page 8, line 35, after the word "shall," to insert the words "subject to the provisions of Sub-section (5) of the last preceding Section."
    324
    This Amendment combines two Amendments of a technical kind, in a different form from that in which they stand in my name on the Paper. The effect of the words which I now propose to insert is to secure, to the employé who might otherwise be convicted in place of his employer, the benefit of all the reasonable precautions and so on which we have just passed in Sub-section (5) of Clause 4. I understand that the Government are prepared to accept the Amendment in this revised form.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 6.—(Laying before Parliament and revocation and variation of orders.)
    Mr. HARRIS: I beg to move, in page 9, line 4, to leave out the word "twenty," and t3 insert instead thereof the word "forty."
    I hope that the new spirit prevailing on the Front Government Bench will be followed by an acceptance of this Amendment. I am now, to some extent, an "old Parliamentary hand," and have had some experience of how ineffectual this

    325
    apparently generous provision is in actual fact, and how very difficult it is—I once endeavoured to do it—to carry an address to His Majesty. The difficulty is to find time and to get the necessary number of Members together. To the ordinary Member of the House, the Table is filled with papers, documents, Bills, and so on, and it is only by keeping very much awake, and, perhaps, not attending Committees, that one can possibly master, in the ordinary Parliamentary day, all the documents that, are sent through the post from various sources to the ordinary private Member, and it is difficult for the trading interests concerned to find some Member to take up their case in connection with a matter of this kind. It is, therefore, not unreasonable to ask for a longer period than the twenty days provided in the Bill. Of course, if no objection is taken, the Order, at the end of the forty days, will have the force of law, but I do think we are entitled to a reasonable period for the ventilation of grievances and the bringing into play of the machinery of Parliament. If words of this character are to be embodied in the Bill, they should be a reality end not a sham, and I say that a period of twenty days is quite inadequate for the purpose.
    Mr. PALING: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: This is not the first time that we have dealt with the question of the period that is to elapse. The hon. Member must bear in mind that the 20 days provided in the Bill are 20 sitting days of Parliament, and the sittings of this House and another place for that number of days really extend over a considerably longer period. I do not feel that I can agree, and I am sure my right hon. Friend, were he here, would not agree to extend this time to 40 days, which might, in certain circumstances—at the end, we will say, of a Session in August—throw an Order right over into the following year, and cause the greatest possible inconvenience. I regret, therefore, that I cannot accept the Amendment.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: The hon. Gentleman's remarks again have been not so much directed to replying to the observations of the Mover of the Amendment as to the question of expediency in regard
    326
    to Parliamentary time. The object of the Amendment is of necessity to safeguard traders who, under the, terms of the Bill, will have no time to make sure what they ought to sell and how they ought to sell it, and, unless ample notice is given of any Order that is made, or any new Schedules of various goods which have to be marked, it is quite certain that prosecutions, if the law is going to be administered strictly, will be fairly numerous. It, may very well be that we are not going to fill our prisons with business people who have fallen foul of the law—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]—but the hon. Gentleman must be aware that this is an extraordinary Bill. The hon. Gentleman himself, the President of the Board of Trade, and the Minister of Agriculture, have all actually declared to-day that various parts of the Bill are so delicate that they scarcely know whether they are doing right or wrong in rejecting an Amendment or in forcing new Clauses upon the House, and it seems to me that the very doubt which they have themselves expressed, and the fact that all these various matters are to be left to be dealt with by committees who will investigate each individual case and each individual commodity, ought at least to justify the hon. Gentleman in giving the maximum amount of time, so as to insure the minimum number of prosecutions, in view of the extraordinary nature of the Bill. I think that 40 days is not an excessive time to enable not only Members of Parliament but tradesp ople generally—importers, wholesalers and retailers—to get a thorough grasp of their future legal obligations and duties. For these reasons, and many more that the hon. Gentleman himself could give, did he desire to do so, I am supporting this Amendment, and I hope at all events that, apart from the mere question of any difficulty that may arise in regard to Parliamentary time, Parliamentary recesses, and so forth, he will attempt some reply as to the legitimacy of imposing new Orders and new statutory obligations on traders within such a short space of time.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I really do not like to sit down under a charge of skating over this important Amendment, and I hope the hon. Member does not really think I wish to evade anything. Let me

    327
    just shortly call this to his mind. This period of 20 days is only a part of the whole period. In the first place, there is the 28 days' notice before a committee can begin an inquiry after notice of the inquiry has been given. Then there is the period occupied by the inquiry itself, which may be a matter of weeks. Then the result has to be sent to the Department, the Department has to give consideration to it, the Order has to be drawn up, and it, has to be laid for this period, which in itself may extend over 40 actual days. Then the Order is made. During all this time, every stage is accompanied by the most elaborate kind of publication. I really do not think it is reasonable, considering this as a part of the whole time to be occupied, to ask that it should be extended.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS Mr. T. WILLIAMS rose—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain FitzRoy): The hon. Member can speak only once.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I only want to put a question.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member can put a question.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: The hon. Gentleman has explained that various proceedings will have to take place before notice is given and the papers are laid for 20 days. Do not all the proceedings preceding the laying of the paper on the Table of the, House warrant a further period of time, since all traders will be in a position of doubt till the last minute?
    Question put, "That the word 'twenty' stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 217; Noes, 99.

    Division No. 490.]

    AYES.

    [8.57 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Cope, Major William

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Albery, Irving James

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Apsley, Lord

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Dakiel, Sir Davison

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Ycovil)

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Balniel, Lord

    Dean, Arthur wellesley

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Drewe, C.

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Barnett Major Sir Richard

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Bethel, A.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Hudson, R. s. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Elveden, Viscount

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S.-M)

    Jackson, sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't)

    Blundell, F. N.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Kidd J. (Linlithgow)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Finburgh, S.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Boyd-carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Loder, J. de V.

    Briqgs, J. Harold

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Gates, Percy

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Mclean, Major A.

    Burman, J. B.

    Grace, John

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Man Robert, Alexander M.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Mactland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prismth, S.)

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Maione, Major P. B.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Mainingham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Hanbury, C.

    Meller, R. J.

    Christie, J. A.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Merriman, F. B.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Woddington, R.

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Sandon, Lord

    Warner, Brigadier General W. W.

    Neville, R. J.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Savery, S. S.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W.)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Wells, S. R.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Smithers, Waldron

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Pleiou, D. p.

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colnnel George

    Price, Major C. w. M.

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Eat

    Radford, E. A.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Raine, W.

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'qe & Hyde)

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Remer, J. R.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Wragg, Herbert

    Remnant, Sir James

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Captain Lord Stanley and Captain

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Viscount Curzon.

    Rye, F. G.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Riley, Ben

    Ammon, Charles Georqe

    Hardie, George D.

    Ritson, J.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Baker, Walter

    Hayday, Arthur

    Scrymqeour, E.

    Barnes, A.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Scurr, John

    Batey, Joseph

    Henderson, T (Glasgow)

    Sexton, James

    Bromfield, William

    Hirst, G. H.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Bromley, J.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Buchanan, G.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Clowes, S.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Connolly, M.

    Kennedy, T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Cove, W G.

    Lansbury, George

    Stephen, Campbell

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Lawson, John James

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton), E.)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lee, F.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw vale)

    Lowth, T.

    Townend, A. E.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lunn, William

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda

    Day, Colonel Harry

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Dennison, R.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Westwood, J.

    Duckworth, John

    March, S.

    Whiteley, W.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Maxton, James

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Enqland, Colonel A.

    Montague, Frederick

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Forrest, W.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gardner, J. P.

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, T. (York. Don Valley)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Goslinq, Harry

    Paling, W.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Windsor, Walter

    Groves, T.

    Potts, John S.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Purcell, A. A.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Sir Robert Hutchison and Mr.

    Percy Harris.

    Sir B. CHADWICK: I beg to move, in page 9, line 12, to leave out from the word "Department" to the word "be" in line 16.
    This, together with the next Amendment, is consequent upon the new Clause giving a dispensing power to the Department where it is desirable to relieve an industry which is suffering inconvenience or difficulty under the Order.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 9, line 17, leave out from the word "in" to the end of the Clause, and insert instead thereof the words
    "like manner, and the foregoing provisions of this Act with respect to the making of Orders in Council shall, subject to the necessary modifications, have effect accordingly."—[Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister.]

    CLAUSE 8.—(Execution of Act by local authorities.)
    Mr. HARRIS: I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (1).

    331
    This is an important Amendment from the point of view of the local authorities. This is a Bill which will be as unpopular as it is impracticable, and the Government, very cleverly and skilfully, will try to escape the odium of its administration by pushing it on to the local authorities. All the unpleasantness of prosecutions and the irritation caused by worrying tradesmen and interfering with their stocks is to be put on to the local authorities. This will, undoubtedly, become a bone of great contention. There will be one section who do not want to make food more expensive and who do not want to worry tradespeople, and there will be another section who think that when patriotism is concerned it is quite right that the pour should pay increased cost. Whatever this branding may mean in regard to increased prices to the consumer, it matters not so long as certain people can inflate their chest and say that they are serving the Empire by giving some benefit to privileged individuals.
    I want to know who is to pay for the cost of administration. Is it to be pushed on to the local rates? Are the local ratepayers to bear the cost of the Government's folly? Is the cost of administration to be defrayed out of the Treasury or are the local authorities to have the burden of carrying out this foolish and ill-timed Act of Parliament? When the Government embark upon experiments of this kind they ought to take the full responsibility and appoint their own inspectors or any other officials necessary to parade the country, prying into shopkeepers' stocks and finding out whether an apple is a German, a French, an American, a Dominion or a British apple. To push this unpopular Act upon the local authorities is to add insult to injury. It is a kind of legislation which is most deplorable. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman or his colleague can point to a single local authority which has asked for this Act of Parliament If the Government are going to push this work upon the local authorities, the least they can do is to defray the whole cost out of the Treasury.
    Mr. RILEY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    332
    In doing so I want to call the attention of the House to what is likely to occur if the Clause stands with Sub-section (1) as part of it. The duty of enforcing the observance of this Act is placed upon local authorities. A local authority may have to appoint special officials, or it may have to ask the local medical officer of health to make frequent visits to retail shops, greengrocers' yards, and so on, examining the stocks and seeing whether the goods are duly marked. I need not remind the House that such action would be very distasteful and would be resented, not only by the officers concerned, but by the local authorities in particular. I am certain that if we pass the Bill as it now stands this Government will earn the well-merited dislike of local authorities, if this obligation is to be imposed upon them.
    If the local authorities are to be responsible for the legal observance of the requirements imposed by this Act, what will be their position in regard to prosecutions? Assuming the Bill as it now stands becomes law, and a local authority, in pursuance of the duty imposed by this Bill, begins to prosecute, through its local officials, local traders who are found not to be observing the conditions of the Act. A prosecution takes place, and the prosecuted trader, not satisfied with the local verdict, decides to appeal to a higher Court. Is the local authority to be under the obligation of following up litigation from Court to Court in order to enforce this Act? To indicate to the House that I am not drawing tin imaginary picture, I would point our that in his evidence before the Merchandise Marks Committee, in 1920, Mr. Fountain admitted an instance where a prosecution had been taken from the lowest to the highest Courts, which lasted for years, and was extremely expensive. This was a prosecution under the Merchandise Marks Acts, and if local authorities are to have this expense put upon them under the Sale of Food and Drugs Act, Section 29, these expenses have to fall on the rates. That is not a responsibility which ought to be put upon a local authority. If the Government feel that this Act is so important, let them place the obligation upon the State.
    Mr. GUINNESS: We think it is absolutely necessary for the efficient working

    333
    of any Orders that may be made, that the power of enforcement should be given to the local authority. I would remind the House that this only applies to foodstuffs. Further, we are going to make it plain by the Amendment which stands next on the Order Paper—in page 10, line 1, after the word "foodstuffs" insert the words "to which an Order in Council under this Act applies"—that it only applies to foodstuffs under Orders in Council, that is to say, under Clause 2 and not under Clause 1. It is only an optional power; it is not a matter of compelling them to face any expenditure. It is entirely at their discretion.
    Mr. RILEY: But if they do not accept it?
    Mr. W. THORNE: Will you take them over like the boards of guardians?
    Mr. GUINNESS: The local authorities will generally, I am sure, respond to the feeling which, I believe, is very general, that it is their duty to carry out this task. It ought not to need any additional staff; they have already inspectors to take samples under the Food and Drugs Act, under the Sale of Food Order, and under the Weights and Measures Acts, and it is not very difficult to arrange with the existing inspectors to undertake these further duties. I believe local authorities generally will be glad to exercise them. If in any district the ratepayers whom they represent are lax about these Orders, it will be in their hands to avoid these duties. Anyhow, I think it is quite certain they will not be put to any expense. We consider it necessary that this should be in, and we believe that if it were out, to a great extent the provisions of Clause 2 would become inoperative.
    Mr. MARCH: It is rather surprising to hear the Minister of Agriculture say that the imposition of these extra duties upon the local authorities will not be very expensive. Just recently you have been asking the local authorities to have meat inspections. We in our district have had to appoint two special meat inspectors, and they are not enough to go round the whole district, but it is as much as we could do. Then, again, we have just had orders from the Minister of Health with regard to permits for coal, which we consider unnecessary. I had a question down to-day. It has cost us already in a fortnight £187 for extra
    334
    labour. We have had to issue 41,000 separate permits to people to get coal, and it has not stopped yet. Now you are talking of further inspection of food, and do not think it is going to cost the local authorities very much. All these extra costs go on at the wish and whim of this Government, at the expense of the ratepayers. Our rates at present are 25s. in the £, with every probability of an increase if the Government continue their present attitude of cutting off a number of people from unemployment benefit and putting other burdens on to the local authorities. Then when cases come along we cannot get this Government under a month to look into them to see whether people are entitled to benefit, and while people are waiting they are on the Poor Law.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member must not drag into this discussion questions outside this Bill.
    Mr. MARCH: I think it is necessary to point out to this Government the burdens they keep on imposing. It is only by repetition that we can get them to undertsand anything. The localities have to pay for their misdeeds. The Government ought to delete this Clause entirely.
    Mr. WEBB: The right hon. Gentleman who replied for the Government on this point said it was felt to be absolutely necessary that the execution of the part of the Bill which relates to foodstuffs should be in the hands of the local authorities. That is so far an explanation of the position of the Bill, but it is no answer to the point which is made in regard to expenditure. It may be convenient to pass this on to the local authorities to avoid the expense of a large national staff, but there is no reason why the local authorities should have to pay the cost. What does it mean? It means that the expense of the local authorities will vary considerably, not merely whether the local authority will work the Act or not, but it will vary according to the character of the district. It is quite easy to imagine that in a purely rural district the expense of administering the Act will be very trifling, but when you come to the crowded parts of East London, or the equally crowded parts of Liverpool, then inspection will mean a considerable expense, and, what is more,

    335
    this variation will be quite irrespective of the nature of the rateable value of the district. What the Minister of Agriculture said practically was, that he wanted to use the local officers in order to save the national expense, and rather than put the burden upon the staff at the Ministry of Agriculture, he wants to use the people of the local authority. Well, let him! But why charge the local authority with the expense?
    We on this side are precluded from moving an Amendment which would put the expense on the Treasury, but I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that this is, at any rate, part of a series—I will not say part of a general policy of successive additions to the local rates which have been made one after another during the last few years. While, on the one hand, there is the greatest complaint as to the burden of rates imposed on particular localities, all the while there is a steady increase in the burden of the aggregate of local expenditure, which is being caused by the successive actions of the Government during the last few years. To these successive additions to the expenditure we ascribe a good deal of the rise in rates. This is only one more addition to the burden. The taxpayers and ratepayers are not quite the same persons. There are two or three important differences. One is that if the burden is borne by the Treasury, it is borne, to a very large extent, by the taxpayers and the super-taxpayers, because income Tax is really the tax from which the money comes. I think that for any national purpose you get the fairest and best economic provision by placing it on Income Tax. In that case you have the inestimable advantage that you do not place any burden on the struggling manufacturer or trader. The man who is not making any profit, or just making a little profit, or just avoiding a loss, has not to pay Income Tax. Consequently, every person will see that the burden, if it is borne by Income Tax, is not a burden on industry and does not cause a rise in the cost of production. If, on the other hand, you put the burden on the local rates, it does mean a large burden on the cost of production. Local rates have to be paid, whether the business is flourishing or not. For all those
    336
    reasons I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should really get this paid for by the Treasury. He may use the local officer, but he has no reason to throw the burden on the rates I do not think there is going to be any considerable expense incurred, but it should not he put on the rates.
    Mr. W. THORNE: I desire to oppose this Amendment. I represent a Division where the rates are exceedingly high. [An HON. MEMBER: "Support the Amendment!"] I beg to support the Amendment. It is quite easy to make a slip like that. I am not the only man who makes slips. I have heard very intelligent Ministers making blunders and misinterpretations. I represent a Parliamentary Division where the rates are exceedingly high—24s. and some odd coppers in the £. I am quite sure all of us anticipate there will be law cases under this Bill when it becomes an Act of Parliament. Take the very wealthy importer of foodstuffs. The West Ham Corporation summons this wealthy importer for violation of the Act. He takes them to the Court of Appeal. The local authority will be compelled to follow to the Court of Appeal. Then he takes the case to the House of Lords. The local authority would be compelled to follow the case to the House of Lords. I can see just a great deal of litigation is going to be involved, and legal obligation thrown upon the local authorities. I hope the Mover of the Amendment will force it to a Division.
    Mr. HARDIE: I would like to draw attention to this point. Take the local authority that contains within its area a place like Covent Garden, where you have such quantities of food supplies passing through every day. The authority in that area under this Bill is going to be compelled to pay for that inspection. Just over the border you find goods which have been inspected, but the area only in which Covent Garden is situated is asked to pay for the expense of inspection. I should like to have it made clear if anything in this Bill can be stated clearly—whether in the case where food supplies are inspected under one area and under one authority, and that authority has to pay the bulk of that; and the food passes out to other authorities where inspection is not necessary, and they do not have to pay; is the burden of the inspec-

    337
    tion to remain on one authority because it happens to have a distributive centre like Covent Garden or Smithfield, while other areas which benefit from the inspection to go free?
    Mr. PALING: I would like an answer to this question. What is to be done where a local authority refuses to function under this Bill? Evidently the Government visualise this state of things or they would not have made this provision. Having done so, they must have made up their minds what they are going to do if such a case does occur. It will be impossible to go on under circumstances where certain local authorities are carrying out their duties, and certain others are not. Surely the Government will have to act when that state of things Occurs. I would like to emphasise the point of view of the undesirability of adding to the burden of local rates at this time. I know what it means in my own district. We are faced with a tremendous increase of rates owing to the foolishness of the Goverment during the last six months. It is 3s. in the £ on the Poor Rate, and if the burdens under this Bill are to be added, it means our position will become intolerable in the near future. We are entitled to an answer. If it proves that the administration of this Bill is going to be a fairly costly thing to carry out, are the Government in that event going to make provision to recompense local authorities for the money they expend in that direction?
    Mr. GUINNESS: I can only speak again by consent of the House, but perhaps I may answer the specific question. There are certainly other resources open under this Bill. This trouble has not arisen over the Sale of Food Order. The local authorities are quite glad to act.
    Mr. PALING: That is not the same thing.
    Mr. GUINNESS: It is very much the same thing when we do not know to what commodity marking may be applied. It may be applied to eggs and meat. If local authorities are able to carry out their functions under that Order without
    338
    any high expenditure, I do not think there will be any difficulty in adding this function.
    Mr. CECIL WILSONThe right hon. Gentleman does not seem to realise the extent to which in our large municipalities one thing after another has been piled up by the Government. There is a very strong feeling that a great deal too much has been done in that direction. What is it going to cost? Should inspection be carried out by those whose hands are already full? We feel there are great difficulties in this question. If the inspection is to be carried out at all efficiently, it will certainly mean the appointment of a considerable number of inspectors. We have always understood that hon. Members opposite are against the setting op of an army of inspectors. If this Bill means anything, it means that the Government are encouraging municipalities to take up that position, and that it is the Government rather than we who are setting up bureaucrats.
    Mr. T. HENDERSON: I wish to call attention to Sub-section (3) which relates to Northern Ireland. The Sub-section states:
    "(3) The Governor of Northern Ireland may by Order in Council direct, as respects any local authority in Northern Ireland, that the powers of the authority under this Section shall be exercised by the Ministry of Agriculture for Northern Ireland instead of by the authority."
    The point is that if the Ministry in Northern Ireland appoints—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: We cannot now go into that question.
    Mr. HARDIE: On a point of Order. May I have a ruling on this question? We are discussing a provision which places charges on a body called a local authority. In a case where, in another part of Great Britain, the powers are not vested in that authority, but in the Ministry of Agriculture for Northern Ireland, is it not competent to compare the two.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It may be in order to compare them.
    Mr. HENDERSON: If in Northern Ireland the local authority does not appoint an inspector, and he is appointed

    339
    by the Ministry of Agriculture there, who pays'? Is it the British Government?
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word
    execute in page 10, line 1, stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 99.

    Division No. 491.]

    AYES.

    [9.39 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Albery, Irving James

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Meller, R. J.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Apsley, Lord

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Monsell, Eyres, Coln. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Gates, Percy

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Moore-Brahazon. Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Balniel, Lord

    Goff, Sir Park

    Murchison, C. K.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Neville, R. J.

    Beckett, sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Grace, John

    Newman, sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Bethel, A.

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Greene, W. p. Crawford

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R.m, Skipton)

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Blundell, F. N.

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Perring, sir William George

    Bowater, Col. sir T. Vansittart

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Plelou, D. P.

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Hanbury, C.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Radford, E. A.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Raine, W.

    Broun, Lindsay, Major H.

    Harvey, Majors. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Burman, J. B.

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Remer, J. R.

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Rye, F. G.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Sandon, Lord

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Christie, J. A.

    Hudson, Capt. A. u. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Savery, S. S.

    Churchman, sir Arthur C.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Shaw, Lt -Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Cope, Major William

    Jephcott, A. B.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    King Captain Henry Douglas

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Wlirsden.E.)

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Curzon, Captain viscount

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Stanley, Hon O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Llovd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Locker-Lampion, Corn. O. (Handsw'th)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Loder, J. de v.

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Sugden, sir Wilfrid

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Templeton, W. P.

    Drewe, C.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Edmondson, Major A. S.

    McLean, Major A.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Ellis, R. G.

    Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Vaughan, Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Elveden, Viscount

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Waddington, R.

    England, Colonel A.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Fielden, E. B.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Finburgh, S.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Wells, S. R.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Wragg, Herbert

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Womersley, W. J.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Wood, E. (Chester, staly'b'ge & Hyde)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).

    Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Bowyer.

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Riley, Ben

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hardie, George D.

    Ritson, J.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Harris, Percy A.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Baker, walter

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Barnes, A.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Scurr, John

    Batey, Joseph

    Hayes, John Henry

    Sexton, James

    Bromfield, William

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Bromley, J.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Buchanan, G.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Clowes, S.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Connolly, M.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Cove, W. G.

    Kennedy, T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lansbury, George

    Stephen, Campbell

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lawson, John James

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lee, F.

    Thurtfe, Ernest

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Townend, A. E.

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lowth, T.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Dennison, R.

    Lunn, William

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Duckworth, John

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Westwood, J.

    Dunnico, H.

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Whiteley, W.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    March, S.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Forrest, W.

    Maxton, James

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gardner, J. P.

    Montague, Frederick

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Gosling, Harry

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Paling, W.

    Windsor, Walter

    Groves, T.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Potts, John S.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Purcell, A. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Sir Robert Hutchison and Major Owen.

    Mr. GUINNESS: I beg to move, in page, 10, line 1, after the word "foodstuffs," to insert the words, "to which an Order in Council under this Act applies."
    This Amendment is moved for the purpose of making it clear that the powers
    of local authorities are only to be exercised under Orders in Council, and not under Clause 1 of the Bill.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 234; Noes, 99.

    Division No. 492.]

    AYES.

    [9.49 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Albery, Irving James

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Cope, Major William

    Apsley, Lord

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Courfauld, Major J. S

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Croft, Brigadier General Sir H.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Crooks, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Balfour, George (Hampstead]

    Burman, J. B.

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Balnlet, Lord

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Barclay-Harvey. C. M.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Bethel, A.

    cassels, J. D.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Drewe, C.

    Birchall, Major J Dearman

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Blundell, F. N.

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Ellis, R. G.

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Christie, J. A.

    Elveden, Viscount

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Fielden, E. B.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Rye, F. G.

    Finburgh, S.

    Lord, Walter Greaves.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Lucas-Tooth. Sir Hugh Vere

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Sandon, Lord

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Foxcroft, captain C. T.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Savery, S. S.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    McLean, Major A.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Shepperson, E. .

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Skelton, A. N.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Gates, Percy

    Macguisten, F. A.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Goff, Sir Park

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Manninqham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Grace, John

    Margesson, Capt. D.

    Stott, Lieut. Colonel W. H.

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Meller, R. J.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Merriman, F. B.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Sugden, Sit Wilfrid

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Templeton, W. P.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Hacking, captain Douglas H.

    Monsell, Cyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastb'rne)

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Tinne, J. A.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Hanbury, C.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Waddington, R.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Murchison, C. K.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Neville, R. J.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Hawke, John Anthony

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Wells, S. R.

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Perring, Sir William George

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Hills, Major John Walter

    Pietou, D. P

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Power, sir John Cecil

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Pownall, Limit.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Hope, Capt.-A O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Radford, E. A.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Raine, W

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U.M.(Hackney, N.)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Sialyb'dge & Hyde)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whitch'n)

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Woodcock Colonel H. C.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Wragg, Herbert

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Remer, J. R.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Remnant, Sir James

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

    Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain

    Lister, Cunliffe-. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Ropner, Major L.

    Lord Stanley.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Gardner, J. P.

    Lawrence Susan

    Ammon, Charles George

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Lawson, John emes.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Gosling, Harry

    Lee, F.

    Baker, Walter

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Lindley, W.

    Barnes, A.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Lowth, T.

    Batey, Joseph

    Groves, T.

    Lunn, William

    Bromfield, William

    Grundy, T. W.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Bromley, J.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Buchanan, G.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    March, S.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Maxton, Games

    Clowes, S.

    Hardie, George D.

    Montague, Frederick

    Cluse, W. S.

    Harris, Percy A.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Connolly, M.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Oliver, George Harold

    Cove, W. G.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Owen, Major G.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Palin, John Henry

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hirst, G. H.

    Paling, W.

    navies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Polls, John S.

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Purcell, A. A.

    Dennison, R.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Duckworth, John

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Riley, Ben

    Dunnico, H.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Ritson, J.

    England, Colonel A.

    Kennedy, T.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Forrest, W.

    Lansbury, George

    Scrymgeour, E.

    344

    345

    Scurr, John

    Stephen, Campbell

    Williams, C. P (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Sexton, James

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Windsor, Walter

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Westwood, J.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Whiteley, W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Stamford, T. W.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes.

    Mr. GUINNESS: I beg to move, in page 10, line 20, at the end, to insert the words
    "An officer taking a sample under this Sub-section shall forthwith notify the person on whose premises the sample is taken or his agent that the sample is taken in pursuance of the provisions of this Act, and shall, if required so to do at the time of giving such notification, select a second like sample or divide the sample into two parts, and shall mark and seal and leave with that person or agent either the second sample or one part of the divided sample."
    10.0 p.m.
    The object of this Amendment is to deal with the point raised in Committee that it would be only fair to the trader that he should be informed when a sample is being taken perhaps for purposes of bringing a prosecution and that he should be given an opportunity, if he so wishes, to retain a corresponding sample and, if he wishes, to have it marked and sealed. This is a simple method of attaining the object which was pressed by hon. Members in Committee. It is not suggested that we should copy the procedure under the Food and Drugs Act. That is unnecessary because these samples are not for analysis, and this is merely for the purpose of seeing that they are properly taken. We believe the object which was in the mind of the Committee has been met by the form of words adopted.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 9.—(Interpretation.)
    Mr. HARRIS: I beg to move, in pave 11, to leave out lines 5 to 12, inclusive.
    This is a matter of great importance. Here is a definition of His Majesty's Dominions—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I might say I think it would be for the convenience of the House that this Amendment and the next should be discussed together. We can have a Division separately on each, but they might be discussed together.
    Mr. HARRIS: I was suggesting to the House that this might lead to serious international complications, because you cannot hope that this Bill will be merely for local consumption. It must be widely read as it has an effect, not only on our industries but on every country throughout the world, and we can assume that this Bill will be carefully serutinised and examined by the Foreign Offices, Consuls and traders in every country and State. I should like to call the attention of the House to the very novel definition of His Majesty's Dominions in the Bill. It says
    "His Majesty's Dominions' includes territories under His Majesty's protection, and such, if any, of the territories which are mandated to us on behalf of the League of Nations."
    Of course, the first part of this definition is not open to the same serious objection, but I can understand such a State as Zanzibar, where the Sultan flies his own flag at Mombasa, very touch objecting to being regarded as part of His Majesty's Dominions. But when we come to the suggestion that the mandated territories are part of Iris Majesty's Dominions then we are trespassing on dangerous grounds. It goes against the spirit of the League of Nations. We hold these territories on trust, and the whole idea is that these States, at any rate while they are under our mandatory control should—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I can understand hon. Members opposite interrupting, as they have great contempt for the League of Nations, but I am certainly not going to be shouted down. It was laid down in the Treaty of Versailles and in all regulations of the League of Nations that the mandated territories were not to be regarded as parts of the country which was responsible for their administration. They were to be administered on behalf of the League of Nations and the League was to retain control. There is, of course a Committee responsible direct to the League for the welfare and administration of these mandated territories.

    347
    The various countries which have taken over these trusts and responsibilities report to this Mandates Committee, and from time to time the administration is scrutinised, reported on and discussed at the League meetings at Geneva, both in the Council and in the general meetings. I say that to introduce in a Bill of this character a new principle of this kind requires a good deal of explanation and justification. I do not think that any of the other countries, either France or any other State, who have taken over these responsibilities, have followed a course of this kind or have even suggested that these territories are part of their Empire or country. We have been assured from time to time that Iraq is quite an independent State and has its own King and Constitution and makes its own laws, and that we are merely acting as advisers on their policy and assisting them in building up a State which is completely independent. Under this definition to which I have referred Iraq is to be regarded as part of His Majesty's Dominions. I say that these words are objectionable and likely to give offence, and to do our reputation harm and injure our relations with the mandated territories, and, above all, that they seem to indicate that this country is going against the whole spirit of the League of Nations and the Treaty of Versailles, and by a side wind is going to take an opportunity to try and regard these territories as part of His Majesty's Dominions. For these reasons I hope these words will be omitted, and if, for purposes of business, some such words are required, I hope they will be in a different form.
    Sir ROBERT HAMILTON: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir P. OUNLIFFE-LISTER: The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) has told us that a similar
    procedure to that of which he speaks has not been carried out in other Acts of Parliament, but it has been carried out in matters of finance ever since 1919. Instead of repeating the same words in every line of the Bill, we have a Definition Clause, and "His Majesty's Dominions" is in the Definition Clause. Power is taken by Order in Council to give to mandated territories the same benefits which are extended to the Dominions and Colonies of the British Empire. That, surely, is a reasonable thing to do. The hon. Gentleman need not he afraid that. this runs counter to the Treaty of Versailles or to the Covenant of the League of Nations, because, ever since 1619—and it is provided in the Finance Act of that year—there has been exactly a parallel provision in the matter of finance to that which we are now proposing. The Finance Act, 1919, established Imperial Preference, and it provided that there should be power by Order in Council to extend that to the mandated territories.
    Mr. HARRIS: Is it not quite a different thing, to say that preference should be given to the mandated territories from saying that His Majesty's Dominions are included?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The words "His Majesty's Dominions" are used constantly in these Bills, and it is really fantastic to suggest to the House—[HON. MEMBERS "Withdraw!"]—I will substitute the word unreasonable," and say it is unreasonable for the hon. Member to suggest that, for convenience of definition, we cannot adopt this very convenient form of words.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'and' in line 6 stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 97.

    Division No. 493.]

    AYES.

    [10.9 p.m.

    Acland Troyte, Lieut. Colonel

    Balniel, Lord

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W

    Albery, Irving James

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Braithwaite. A. N.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Cilve

    Applin, Colonel R, V. K.

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Apsley. Lord

    Bethel, A.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Breun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Brown, Brig.Gen.H.C(Berks,Newb'y)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Buckingham. Sir H.

    Baldwin, R1. Hon. Stanley

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanelttart

    Burman, J. B.

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Harvey, G (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Radford, E. A.

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Harvey. Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Raine. W.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Rees, Sir Beddoc

    Cassels, J. D.

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Reid. Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Remer, J. R.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertlord, Watford)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Herbert.S.(York, N.R. Scar. & Wh'b)

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Charteris. Brigadier-General J.

    Hills, Maior John Waller

    Ropner, Major L.

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Christie, J. A.

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St.Marylebone)

    Russell. Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Rye, F. G.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Samuel. A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Hudson. Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney.N.)

    Sandon, Lord

    Cooe. Major William

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Courthope. Lieut.-Col. Sir Grorge L.

    Illffe. Sir Edward M

    Savery, S. S.

    Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn., N.)

    Jackson. Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew,W)

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Sheffield. Sir Berkeley

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Kidd. J. (Linlithgow)

    Shepperson. E. W.

    Crookshank. Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Skelton, A. N.

    Citron, Captain Viscount

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Smith. R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Dalkeith. Earl of

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Smithers. Waldron

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Little. Dr. E. Graham

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Davies, Mai. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil)

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Loder, J. da V.

    Stanley. Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Lord, Walter Greaves.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Stanley. Hon O. F. G. (Westm'eland

    Drewe, C.

    Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Duckworth, John

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Streatleild, Captain S. R.

    Edmonson, Major A. J.

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Stuart. Crichton-. Lord C

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    McLean, Major A.

    Sueter. Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Ellis, R. G.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Elveden, Viscount

    Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Templeton, W. P.

    England. Colonel A.

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Erskine. Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.)

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Maitland. Sir Arthur D. steel.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Matone, Major P. B.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Fielden. E. B.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Ford. Sir P. J.

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Waddington, R.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Meller, R. J.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Forrest, W.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Freee, Sir Walter de

    Mitchell. W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Watson. Rt. Hon. w. (Carlisle)

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Monsell. Eyres. Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Watts, Or. T.

    Galbraith. J. F. W.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr.)

    Wells. S. R.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Gates, Percy

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Murchlson, C. K.

    Williams. Com. C. (Devon. Torquay)

    Goff, Sir Park

    Neville, R. J.

    Windsor-Cllve, Lieut.-Colonel Gsorpe

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Grace, John

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Wise, Sir Fredrlc

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Nuttali, Ellis

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset. Bridgwater)

    Greene. W. P. Crawford

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    wood, E. (Cnester, staly'b'ge & Hydo)

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Penny, Frederick George

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Perring, Sir William George

    Wragg. Herbert

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Peto. Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Hanbury, C.

    Pielou, O. P.

    Hannan, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Pownall. Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Margesson.

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Cove, W. G.

    Gosling, Harry

    Ammon, Charles George

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Baker, Walter

    Dalton, Hugh

    Groves, T

    Barnes, A.

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Batey, Joseph

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Bromfield, William

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Bromley, J.

    Dennison, R,

    Hardie, George D.

    Buchanan, G.

    Dunnico, H.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Charleton, H. C.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Clowes, S.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Hirst, G. H.

    Connolly, M.

    Gillett, George M.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    350

    351

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Palin, John Henry

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Paling, W.

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Potts. John S.

    Townend, A. E.

    Jones, T. I, Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Purcell, A. A.

    Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Richardson, R. 'Houghton-le-Spring)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Kennedy, T.

    Riley, Ben

    Westwood, J.

    Lansbury, George

    Ritson, J.

    Whiteley. W.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R. Elland)

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Lee. F.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Scurr, John

    Williams, David (Swansea, E)

    Lowth, T.

    Sexton, James

    Williams. T. (York, Don Valley)

    Lunn, William

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Wilson C H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Sitch. Charles H.

    Windsor, Walter

    March. S.

    Smith, H. B. Lees. (Keighley)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Maxton, James

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Montague, Frederick

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Naylor, T. E.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Mr. Percy Harris and Sir Robert

    Oliver, George Harold

    Stamford. T. W.

    Hamilton.

    Owen, Major G.

    Stephen. Campbell

    Mr. WEBB: I beg to move, in page 11, line 6, to leave out from the word "protection" to the end of line 12.
    I do not propose to do more than formally move this Amendment. It seems to me that it is quite improper to include in the term His Majesty's Dominions territories over which we have only a mandate. Under the Bill it would he quite in order to mark, say, Mesopotamia figs as Empire produce.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: This is precisely the same Amendment as that upon which the House has just divided, and the right hon. Gentleman will therefore acquit me of any discourtesy if I say no more about it.
    Question put. "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 239; Noes, 95.

    Division No. 494.]

    AYES.

    [10.20 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Albery, Irving James

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Christie, J. A.

    Gates, Percy

    Apsley, Lord

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Cochrane. Commander Hon. A. D.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Astor, Viscountess

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Cope. Major William

    Grace, John

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    Graham Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Cowan. Sir Wm. Henry (Islington,N.)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Balniel, Lord

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Guest. Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.)

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Bethel, A.

    Dalkeith. Earl of

    Hacking. Captain Douglas H.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastb'rne)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hammersley. S. S.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Hanbury,C.

    Blundell, F. N.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Hannor, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Drawe, c.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Duckworth. John

    Harvey G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Harvey Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Hawke. John Anthony

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Ellis. R. G.

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Elveden, Viscount

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Brown,Brig.-Gen H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    England, Colonel A.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Buckingham. Sir H.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.)

    Herbert. Dennis (Hertford. Watford)

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Everard. W. Lindsay

    Herbert, S. (York, N.R. Scar. & Wh'by)

    Burman, J. S.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Hoare. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Finburgh, S.

    Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Holt. Captain H. P

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Forrest, W.

    Hope. Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Cassels, J. D

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney.N.)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(prtsmth.S.)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Iliffe. Sir Edward M.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Jephcott, A. P.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Stroatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    King. Captain Henry Douglas

    Perring, Sir William George

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Peto. Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Lister, Cunliffe. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Plelou, D. p.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Little,' Dr. E. Graham

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Lloyd. Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Radford, E. A.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vert

    Raine, W.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Luce, Maj. Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Waddington, R.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (l. of W.)

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Reid. O. D. (County Down)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    McLean, Ma)or A.

    Renter, J. R.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Watson. Rt. Hon. w. (Carlisle)

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Wells, S. R.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Ruggles-Brise. Major E. A

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Rye, F G.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall. Northern)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Samuel. A. M. (Surrey. Farnham)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Meller. R. J.

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Williams. C. P. (Denbigh. Wrexham)

    Merriman, F. B.

    Sandon, Lord

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Meyer. Sir Frank

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark. Lanark)

    Savery, S. S.

    Wise. Sir Fredric

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Welden)

    Shaw, Lt.-Col, A. D.Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)

    Wolmer. Viscount

    Monsell. Eyres. Com. Rt. Hon. B. M

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Womersley, W J.

    Moore. Lieut. -Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr;

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Wood. E.(Chest'r. Stalvb'dge & Hyde)

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine.C!

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C-

    Morrison. C. K.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Wragg, Herbert

    Neville. R. J.

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Yerburgh. Major Robert 0. T.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Newton. Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge!

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Stanley. Hon. O. F.G. (Westm'eland)

    Captain Margesson and Captain

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedlord, Luton)

    Storry-Deans, A.

    Bowyer.

    NOES.

    Adamson. w. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hardie, George D.

    Riley, Ben

    Ammon. Charles Georqe

    Harris. Percy A.

    Ritson. J.

    Attlee. Clement Richard

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Robinson, w. C. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Baker. Walter

    Haydny, Arthur

    Scrymgeour, E.

    3arnes. A.

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Scurr, John

    Batey. Joseph

    Hirst, G. H.

    Sexton, James

    Bromfield, William

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Bromley, J.

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Buchanan, G.

    Johnston. Thomas (Dundee)

    Sitch. Charles H.

    Charleton. H. C.

    Jones. Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Smith. H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Clowes. S.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith, Ronnie (Penistone)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Connolly, M.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Cove. W G.

    Kennedy, T.

    Stenhen, Campbell

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lansbury, George

    Sullivan, J.

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lee. F.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lindley. F. W.

    Townend, A. E.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lowth, T.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lunn, William

    Webb. Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Dennison, R.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Westwood, J.

    Dunnico, H.

    March. S.

    Whiteley, W.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Maxton, James

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Gibbins. Joseph

    Montague, Frederick

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Gillett. George M.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams. T. (York, Don Vatley)

    Gosling. Harry

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Owen. Major G.

    Wilton, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Greenall. D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Palin. John Henry

    Windsor. Walter

    Groves, T.

    Paling, W.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster. Newton)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Pontonby. Arthur

    Hall. F. (York. W.R. Normanton)

    Potts, John S.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Pureed, A. A.

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

    Hamilton, Sir R.(Orkney & Shetland)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Hayes.

    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 11, line 15, to leave out from the word "undergone," to the end of line 17, and to insert instead thereof the words
    354
    "in the United Kingdom any treatment or process resulting in a substantial change in the goods."
    This is a drafting Amendment, moved in accordance with an undertaking which I

    355
    gave in Committee. The definition of "imported goods" was fully discussed, and it was generally agreed that paragraph (a) should be brought into line with paragraph (b), and this Amendment does that.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. B. PETO: I beg to move, in page 11, line 15, after the words last inserted, to insert the words
    "provided that the assembling or setting tip of parts of any manufactured article shall not be held to be a substantial change within the meaning of this Section."
    This is the Clause which defines "Imported goods," which are the governing words of Clause 2; in fact, that is the whole purport of this part of the Bill. If you say in paragraph (a) that certain goods are not to be held to he imported goods, they are, ipso facto, left outside the scope of the Bill. I am moving this Amendment because cabinet work imported into this country is never imported as a whole, so that it does not undergo any substantial change; it is imported in parts, which are assembled here and, very likely, french Polished also, but no Committee would say that putting together four or five parts of an article did not constitute a substantial change in that article, and, therefore, I desire to put in words expressly limiting this definition by saying that the mere assembling of goods will not constitute a substantial change. It might be conceded that, in Subsection (3) of Clause 4, power is given to the Committee to order the marking of the parts, but that Clause is a part of the Bill, and this definition Clause clearly over-rides it; the Committee can do nothing in the way of ordering the marking of parts if the definition Clause says that certain things are left entirely out of the Bill.
    It might possibly be held in certain cases that all the parts which were made abroad, and which were merely assembled in this country, might be marked under an Order made under Clauso 4, but in the case of cabinet work I hold that that certainly is not so, and, to show that this is regarded as an important. matter by the cabinet trade, I may say that I have received a letter from the chairman of the Cabinet Trade Federation, in which he says that larger quantities of imparted
    356
    cabinet work are coming into this country than formerly, and that these goods are undoubtedly passed off on the British public as goods of British manufacture. That being the case, as I know it is, it is quite clear that, if there is need for this Bill at all, there is certainly need for the inclusion of this particular trade. I, therefore., ask the President of the Board of Trade to accept the words I desire to insert, which could do no possible harm, and which would affect a trade which was regarding this Bill with hope, but is now regarding it with apprehension, in view of the fact that in this definition Clause words have been inserted which seem definitely to leave the whole of its products outside the scope of the Bill.
    Sir WILLIAM PERRING: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I want to call the attention of the House to the fact that it is one thing for a number of articles to undergo a process which means a substantial change, and another thing to assemble a number of parts together into a complete article when they have not undergone a substantial change b^ a manufacturing process. To enumerate a few articles to demonstrate the point I wish to make, we may have gramophones, motor cars, electric fittings, or wireless apparatus, all the parts of which may be imported from abroad, but which, when they are assembled into a manufactured article, can, as I understand the Clause, be sold as a British article. I am sure the House does not desire that a number of foreign-made parts assembled here should be sold as a British manufactured article. Time after time in these Debates it has been asserted or suggested that this is a Bill to prohibit the importation of foreign goods, but that is quite a mistake. All that the Bill dues is to ask that things which are really foreign shall be marked as foreign, so that the purchaser or consumer may know for his own satisfaction whether they are foreign or not. An article that is assembled here, of which all the component parts are made abroad, is still a foreign article. In other words, if the parts of a watch were sent over here in different cases and assembled together and said, to say they are British is really getting behind the Act. I am sure the President of the Board of Trade, in his anxiety to protect the

    357
    public in this respect, will realise that this is quite distinct from the Amendment which the House has accepted.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The Committee spent a great; deal of time and trouble in getting a sound and accurate definition of imported goods. The result. has been that we have now amended paragraph (a) by general consent to bring it in conformity with (b), and I am sure my hon. Friend will appreciate that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and if he was to extend still further protection to goods in this country he would have, naturally and logically, to extend still further the operation of (b). He is not altogether without remedy in the matter he has raised, because it will be open to those for whom he has spoken to make an application not only in respect of the completed article, but in respect of the parts, and if an order was made then under Section 4 (3) it would be for the person who assembled the parts to show that they were not of foreign origin. I hope my hon. Friend will not press the matter. I am sure we shall not improve, either in accuracy of language or in convenience of practice, the result at which we have arrived.
    Mr. PETO: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the point, and can he assure me that imported cabinet work, imported in parts and assembled in this country will be within the scope of the Bill?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I really must not be asked to pronounce judgment on such a matter. It, would be most improper for me to do so when the House has laid down that the procedure is to be by application to a Committee.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: Could the existing cabinet be marked as far as its constituent parts are concerned?
    Mr. PETO: I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    HON. MEMBERS: No!
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House proceeded to a Division—
    There being no Member willing to act as Teller for the "Ayes," MR, SPEAKER declared that the "Noes" had it
    Mr. SPEAKER: The next Amendment, which stands in the name of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris),£in page 11, line 24, at the end, to insert the words
    "(c) goods which are blended or mixed after importation into the United Kingdom provided that they are marked with the word 'blended,'"
    is covered, I think, by the Government Amendment which follows. Does the hon. Member for North Tottenham (Mr. H. Morrison) move the Amendment which stands in his name?
    Mr. BARNES: I beg to move in page 11, line 28, to leave out the word "words," and to insert instead thereof the word "word."
    I understood the President. of the Board of Trade to say earlier that he would be prepared to accept. a modification.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think that would be convenient. Therefore, I will accept the next four Amendments.
    Captain BENN: May I ask whether a person who has to stamp the foreign article with the words showing that it is of foreign manufacture, will be entitled to add anything else? Will he be entitled to add the words, "Buy German Goods"? While he is making the die, will he be able to add the words, "German Goods are best"?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: There is nothing to stop anyone from doing anything he likes in that respect. He might add the words, "Vote for the Liberal party," if he likes.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made: In page 11, line 29, leave out the words "'manufacture' or 'foreign produce.'"
    In line 32, leave out the word "words," and insert the word "word."
    In line 33, leave out the words "'manufacture' or 'Empire produce.'"—[Mr. Barnes.]
    Mr. WEBB: I beg to move, in page 11, to leave out lines 38 and 39, inclusive.
    It is not possible in some cases to put the marking in a conspicuous form. These words become unnecessary.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not press this Amendment. Obviously, if we are to have any marking at all, let it be so that he who runs may read. Do let the marking, if it be ordered at all, be conspicuous.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 99.

    Division No. 495.]

    AYES.

    [10.46 p.m.

    Acland-Troyle, Lieut.-Colonel

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Meller, R. J.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Albery, Irving James

    Finburgh, S.

    Meyer. Sir Frank

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Ford. Sir P. J.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Apsley, Lord

    Forrest, W.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Morrison H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    Murchison, C. K.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Gadie. Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Neville, R. J.

    Balniel, Lord

    Galbraith, J. F. w.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Sarnett, Major Sir Richard

    Gates, Percy

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Bethel, A.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Penny. Frederick George

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Perkins. Colonel E. K

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W, R., Skipton)

    Grace, John

    Perring, Sir William George

    Blundell, F. N.

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Boothby, R. J.. G.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N

    Plelou. D. P.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Greene, W. p. Crawford

    Power, sir John Cecil

    Sowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Grotrian, H. Brent.

    Pownall. Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Braithwaite, A. N.

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol,N.)

    Price. Major C. W. M.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Radford, E. A.

    Brings, J. Harold

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Raine, W.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)

    Rawson Sir Cooper

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Rees, Sir Seddoe

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Hanbury, C.

    Reid. Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Brown, Brig, -Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Reid, O. D. (County Down)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Remer, J. R.

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Remnant, Sir James

    Burman, J. B,

    Harvey. G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Richardson. Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'tt'y)

    Burney. Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Harvey. Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Haslam, Henry C

    Ropner. Major L.

    Butler, Sir Geuffray

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Campbell. F. T

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Rye, F. G.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth,S.)

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey. Farnham)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Herbert, S. (York. N.R.Scar, & Wh'by)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Chadwick. Sir Robert Burton

    Kills, Major John Waller

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir S. J. G.

    Sandon Lord

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Hogg, Rt. Hon.Sir D.(St.Marylebone)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Christie, J. A.

    Holt. Captain H. P.

    Savery. S. S.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney,N.)

    Sheffield. Sir Berkeley

    Cochrane. Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Skelton. A. N.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Cope. Major William

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Courtauld. Major J. S.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn., N.)

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Kinloch-Cooke. Sir Clement

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F.(Willsden.E)

    Crooke. J. Smedley (Derltend)

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Stanley Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Crookshank. Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Little. Dr. E. Graham

    Stirry-Deans. R.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Stott. Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Dalkeith. Earl of

    Loder, J. de V.

    Streatfield. Captain S. R.

    Dalziel. Sir Davison

    Lord. Walter Greaves-

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Sueter, Rear-Admlral Murray Fraser

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Dean. Arthur Wellesley

    Macdonald, Capt. P. O. (I. of W.)

    Templeton, W. P.

    Drewe. C.

    Macdonald. R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Duekworth John

    McLean. Major A.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen. South)

    Eden. Captain Anthony

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Edmondson. Major A. J.

    Macnaqhten. Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Tinne, J. A.

    Ellis, R. G.

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Tryon. Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Elveden. Viscount

    Macquisten. F. A.

    Vauqhan-Morgan Col. K. F.

    England, Colonel A.

    Mac Robert, Alexander M.

    Waddington. R.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Everard. W. Lindsay

    Malone, Major p. B.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

    Wragg. Herbert

    wells, S. R.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Womersley, W. J.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES —

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Captain Lord Stanley and Captain

    Williams. Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Wood, E. (Chester, Staly-b'ge & Hyde)

    Margesson.

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hardie, George D.

    Riley, Ben

    Ammon, Charles George

    Harris, Percy A.

    Ritson. J.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Baker, Walter

    Hayday, Arthur

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Barnes, A.

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Scurr, John

    Batey, Joseph

    Hirst, G. H.

    Sexton, James

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Hore-Beilsha, Leslie

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Bromfield, William

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Sinclair, Major sir A. (Caithness)

    Bromley, J.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Buchanan, G.

    Jones. Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey. Rotherhithe)

    Clowes, S.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Smith, H. B.' Lees- (Keighley)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charier

    Connolly, M.

    Kennedy, T.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities

    Lansbury, George

    Stephen, Campbell

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sullivan, J.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lee, F.

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lowth, T.

    Townend, A. E,

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lunn, William

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D, (Rhondda)

    Dennison, R.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Duncan, C.

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wettwood, J.

    Dunnico, H.

    March, S.

    Whiteley, W.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Maxton, James

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Gibbins. Joseph

    Montague, Frederick

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh. Wrexham)

    Gillett, George M.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gosling. Harry

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams. T. (York. Don Valley)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Owen, Major G.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Groves, T.

    Paling, W.

    Windsor, Walter

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Potts, John S.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Purcell, A. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Richardson, R. (Houuhton-le-Spring)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes.

    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 12, line 10, at the end, to insert the words
    "For the purposes of this Sub-section the expression blend or mixture ' does not include any blend or mixture produced by a process of manufacture from materials of different kinds"
    This Amendment is moved in order to safeguard a possibility not foreseen in Committee. It was discovered that the Clause as drafted might possibly he held to cover a mixture of cotton and silk which it was never intended to bring within the terms of the Clause. Therefore, this proviso is put ire to make plain what was the intention.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 12, line 14, leave out the words "a manufacturing," and insert instead thereof the words "any treatment or."—[Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister.]
    Mr. WIGGINS: I beg to move, in page 12, line 15, at the end, to insert the words
    "'Substantial change by reason of a manufacturing process' does not include a change effected in any textile material by way of bleaching, dyeing, or finishing."
    I think the House of Commons ought to make up its mind here and now that one of the things that should not be left to the whims and fancies of the committee to be set up is the question of what happens to English cloth if it goes out of this country for treatment and then comes back here. If the words of my Amendment be not inserted in the Clause, cloth manufactured in this country which goes out of this country for a special process of finishing, on coming hack here is liable to be treated as of foreign manufacture. If we desired by this Bill to advertise foreign goods that would be the best way of doing it. When we send cloth out for some process and it comes back here, we do

    363
    not want it to be marked "German" or "French" or anything else; it should retain its character as English, having been made in this country. Not only that which remains in this country but that which goes out should be covered by the Amendment. I hope that the Minister will see the reasonableness of the request and will insert some words which would remove this danger from affecting a trade which is already in too bad a way from other causes.
    Major CRAWFURD: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I cannot accept the Amendment as it stands. It would be inconsistent with what we have already done. Sub-section (3) states that:
    "For the purposes of this Act, imported goods shall be deemed to have been manufactured in the country in which they last underwent before importation a substantial change by reason of a manufacturing process."
    11.0 P.M.
    There may be processes which are not substantial, and on the other hand processes of a large, expensive and complicated character, which really do change the character of the goods. It would be unreasonable to insert an exception which covers the whole of those goods. But there is some reason in what the Mover of the Amendment has said. He should remember that there is no generally operative Order, but that every case has to be decided on its merits. What I propose to do is to see that. in another place words are inserted which will make it plain that., even where an Order has been made covering articles of this kind, it shall be permissible to mark them "Foreign dyed" or in some such way instead of marking the goods as "Foreign," thus suggesting that they are wholly foreign. I think that is a reasonable proposal.
    Mr. HARRIS: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is a good thing to advertise foreign dyers, and does he think his proposal is going to help British manufacturers, especially in Lancashire? His proposal means that when they send their goods to be dyed or finished abroad the goods will come back bearing a foreign brand. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman might insert some more satisfactory words than those he proposes
    364
    and if he cannot accept the proposal of the Amendment perhaps he himself is a little more ingenious and might find other words, especially after consulting Lancashire Chambers of Trade.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The short answer to that is that if the people who make the cloth do not want it marked it need not be marked.
    Mr. WEBB: It may be too late to make any alteration at this stage, but I cannot help viewing with great alarm the prospect which has been opened up by the answer of the Minister. There is in Lancashire and Yorkshire a great industry in the production of cloth which may go to Germany or France to be bleached or dyed or finished. If when that cloth comes in again, it is to be marked "Foreign dyed" or anything of that sort it will be a serious matter, and I beg of the right hon. Gentleman to consider what an enormous proportion of cloth going out from this country will be so marked. Such a proposal would be calamity. I think it is of vital importance that something should be done to make this matter quite clear. We should not quarrel about details but surely this House cannot contemplate taking this step in relation to an enormous industry on which a great deal of England is dependent and compelling that industry in the ordinary course of its business to have its products marked "Foreign dyed" or "Foreign finished." The right hon. Gentleman I submit must find some way other than this to help the people in Lancashire and in the West. Biding of Yorkshire to go on doing what they have been doing for generations without being subject to this liability.
    Mr. HAMMERSLEY: I very much regret that the Minister did not see his way to accept this Amendment. To my mind it is a serious prospect if cotton goods woven in Lancashire and sent abroad to undergo some interim-diary process of dying or bleaching are to be sent back here to be made up and re-exported abroad with some mark on them of a character to suggest that the intermediary process had been done abroad. That will inform individuals abroad that there is some process which is not done in Lancashire and will be an incentive to them to import that material in its unfinished state and to get the inter-

    365
    mediary process done themselves in some foreign country. It is a great mistake to suggest that it would be possible for any Committee to decide whether or not articles of this character should be branded because some intermediary process has been performed abroad. I understand that the, President's reply to this objection would be that, after all, articles exported are not necessarily going to be marked at all, but the point is that goods are sent abroad to be finished or dyed. They return to this country and nobody knows whether these particular goods are going to be sent abroad or not, and therefore it is impossible for a Committee not knowing the technicalities to decide. I do hope that the President will reconsider this matter and see that some suitable form of words is devised between now and the Bill going to another place and see that the very important interests of Lancashire, which, after all, has the greatest exporting industry in this country and which is very hardly hit at the present time, are properly safeguarded.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The hon. Member who has just spoken has been quite misled, naturally, by what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb). It is not a case of a compulsory Order at all and there is nothing in this Bill which orders any single article made in Lancashire or anywhere else to be marked. They will only be marked if the people who make those goods—[HON. MEMBERS: "No. The dyers."] The people who apply would naturally be the makers of the goods. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It is extremely unlikely that the dyer would apply but if the dyer did apply for such an Order, the maker of the goods would obviously be entitled to be heard.
    Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: I trust the right hon. Gentleman will not accept this Amendment and that he will not alter the wording when it goes to another place. What is going on? It is merely that the merchant in Manchester buys his yarn in Lancashire and then, in order that he may get it dyed a little more cheaply in a foreign country, say Italy or France, where there are longer hours and lower wages, gets it finished there. They are not British goods. They are foreign goods just in the same way as goods are put on to the home market
    366
    the major part of which have been completed abroad. Let us have the whole of the work done in this country.
    Major C RAWFURD Major C RAWFURD rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think the hon. Member seconded the Amendment.
    Mr. WADDINGTON: I hope the President of the Board of Trade will not propose, in another place, to have words inserted as suggested. I entirely dissent from the view expressed by one of my hon. Friends who spoke before. Speaking as a manufacturer, we feel that a good deal of our troubles in Lancashire to-day are caused by the operations of people who run their works 00 per cent. and pay 16 per cent. dividend, and there is no question that the actual manufacturers of commodities in Lancashire, the capitalists in the spinning and weaving trade, are entirely opposed to the attitude which is taken up by the calico printers and dyers. There is another point to be borne in mind and that is that we have on the Statute Book a Dyestuffs Act. We have spent a good deal of money in trying to secure for British dyestuffs that supremacy which we hope every British industry will attain. The great difficulty will be, If these goods are to be brought back after being dyed in a foreign country and if they are to have the mark "foreign dyed" put on them, and if British-dyed goods have no mark put on them, that we shall be deliberately setting out to disparage our own industry. I hope that if the President of the Board of Trade cannot accept this Amendment in its present form he will, in another place, try to frame an Amendment which will more nearly meet the terms of this Amendment than the word which he himself advocates.
    Mr. RILEY: The voice of Yorkshire has not yet been heard. So far as Yorkshire is concerned the arguments which have been put forward from Lancashire do not apply to the same extent, because in the West Riding, our goods are mainly sent abroad by manufacturers. I am perfectly certain from the comments I have heard in regard to this proposal that it is strongly resented by the textile industry in the West Riding and I would advise the President of the Board of Trade to show a spirit of conciliation upon this matter. I would like to com-

    367
    ment upon one extraordinary aspect from the point of view of British trade in this matter. The method adopted by the promoters of this Bill is calculated by sending the goods made in this country abroad to he stamped after either being dyed or bleached to advertise the shortcomings of British trade and the excellence of the treatment of other countries. Nothing could be more foolish and short-sighted than that. I hope that the, President of the Board of Trade will find some way to meet that practical difficulty.
    Mr. SANDEMAN: I would like to associate myself with what has been said by the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Waddington). There is no question as to the effect this will have unless we get a promise from the President of the Board of Trade to make some Amendment in another place. We have so many goods in Lancashire which in some cases have to go abroad and he printed. It is a question of price and of keeping the competitive price in this matter.
    Captain BENN: Before we dispose of this Amendment, it would be well that the House should understand exactly what, are the intentions of the President of the Board of Trade. At the start he told us that none of this cloth would be stamped except at the desire of the manufacturers, but it immediately became apparent that other people would come in, those interested in the dyeing process. What does the President of the Board of Trade intend to do? Does he, in another place, intend to accept the Amendment of my hon. Friend, or does he still intend to have the goods stamped, not "German foreign cloth," but "Best foreign cloth"? Or does the right hon. Gentleman intend to satisfy
    the dyers and have the cloth stamped "Guaranteed German dyed"?
    He must do one or ether. He may not be able to control the stamping, but as long as the word "foreign" appears, any adjective may be added. The House is entitled to know what the Government proposes to do.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The offer I made was that there should be power to put on, "foreign dyed," which would indicate foreign manufacture. I am quite willing that this point should be discussed in another place. I think it is a, reasonable offer. The difficulty of this question has been greatly exaggerated. There are two sets of critics and in their desire as to what should be done, they have mutually destroyed each other. There is keen opposition between the dyers and the cloth-makers. The cloth-makers want to be able to deal with the foreign dyers, and the dyers want to make the cloth-makers have their goods dyed in this country. Note what will happen. The cloth-maker, if he does not wish the cloth to be marked will not apply for a marking order—and the dyer will not. The dyer says that the last thing he wants is to give an opportunity for cloth to be marked "foreign dyed." I accept from both sets of speakers, who have spoken with great authority, their point of view, and while they are in direct opposition on most points, they are in complete unity on one thing. The clothmakers and the dyers have not the least desire to have goods marked "foreign manufacture," or "foreign dyed." As they are both agreed that the last thing they desire is an order, what on earth are we arguing about?
    Question put: "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 100; Noes, 222.

    Division No. 496.]

    AYES.

    [11.18 p.m.

    Adamson, w. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Gosling, Harry

    Amman, Charles George

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Greenwood, A. {Nelson and Colne)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Baker, Walter

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Grundy, T. W.

    Barnes, A.

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

    Batey, Joseph

    Dennison, R.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Duckworth, John

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Bromfield, William

    Duncan, C.

    Hamilton. Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Bromley, J.

    Dunnico, H.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Buchanan, G.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Hardie, George D.

    Charleton, H. C.

    England, Colonel A.

    Harris, Percy A.

    Clowes. S.

    Forrest, W.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Cluse, W.'S.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Crawford, H. E.

    Gillett, George M.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Potts, John S.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Purcell, A. A.

    Sullivan, J.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Townend, A. E.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Riley, Ben

    Waddington, R.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanc, Stretfort)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Kennedy, T.

    Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W. R.,Elland)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Lansbury, George

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    Westwood, J.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Lee, F.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Scurr, John

    Williams, David (Swansea. E.)

    Lunn, William

    Sexton, James

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Wilson. C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Sinclair. Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Windsor, Walter

    March, S.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Maxton, James

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Smith Ben (Bermondsey. Rotherhiths)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Oliver, George Harold

    Smith, H. B, Lees- (Keigh'ey)

    Sir Robert Hutchison and Major

    Paling, W.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon Benjamin Charles

    Owen.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Stamford, T. W.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte. Lieut. Colonel

    Ellis, R. G.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon, Sir James T.

    Elvedon, Viscount

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Albery, Irving James

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S-M.)

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    McLean, Major A.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K

    Fairfax. Captain J. G.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Macnagmen, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Astbury, Lieut-Commander F. W.

    Fielden, E. B.

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Finburgh, S.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Atholl. Duchess of

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel-

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Balniel, Lord

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Meller, R. J.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Merrlman, F. B.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Fremantle, Lieut-Colonel Francis E.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Bethel, A.

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Mitchell, W, Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Gates, Percy

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Blundell, F. N.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T, C.

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Braithwaite, A. R.

    Gower, sir Robert

    Murchlson, C. K.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Grace, John

    Neville, R. J.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Brittain. Sir Harry

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Hall. Vice-Admiral Sir r, (Eastbourne)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Burman, J. R

    Hanbury, c.

    Perring, Sir William George

    Burton, Colonel H. W,

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Butler, Sir Geuthrey

    Harrison, G, J. C.

    Plelou, D. P.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Campbell, E. T.

    Harvey, Major S. E. {Devon, Totnes)

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth.S.)

    Haslam, Kenry C.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Cazalct, Captain Victor A.

    Hawke. John Anthony

    Radford, E. A.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Raine, W.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col, V. L. (Bootle)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Hennessy, Major J, R. G.

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Herbert. Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Held, O. D. (County Down)

    Christie, J. A.

    Horbert,S.(York, N.R., Scar, & Wh'by)

    Remer, J, R.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hogg, Rt. Hon.Sir D.(St.Marylebone)

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Holt. Captain H. P.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K,

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney,N.)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Cowan, Sir Win. Henry (Islington, N.)

    Hudson, R, S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Rye, F. G.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

    Jackson, sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Sandon, Lord

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Dalziel, Sir Davison

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Savery, S. S.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Shaw, Lt.-Col.A. D. Mcl. (Henfrew, W.)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Drewe, C.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Lord. Walter Greaves-

    Skelton, A. N.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Smithers, Waldron

    370

    371

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. p.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Womersley, W. J

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Wood, E. (Cnester, staiy'b'ge & Hyde)

    Streatfield, Captain S. R.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Wood, sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Wells, S. R.

    Wragg, Herbert

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Templeton, W. P.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Major Cope and Captain Mar-

    Thornton, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    gesson.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Mr. GUINNESS: I beg to move, in page 12, line 38, after the word "cooking" to insert the words "curing, or preserving."
    We had a discussion in Committee about tinned vegetables and potted meats and it was thought that such products involved a substantial change and should be free from the necessity of being marked as foreign or Dominion produce by reason of the raw material being subject to a marking Order. It was thought that this point should be made clear by adding the words "curing, or preserving" after the word "cooking." The case is probably covered by the provision about substantial change which we inserted this evening under the definition of imported goods. There were points about cooking in a restaurant or the selling of cooked goods, and we think it will resolve any doubts on this point if we insert the words "curing, or preserving."
    Mr. HARRIS: I quite appreciate that this Amendment is the result of representations which I made during the Committee stage. I want, however, to be quite clear about the result. In many streets of London there are often two fish shops almost adjoining one another, one known as a "wet fish shop" and the other a "fried fish shop," where they cook herrings. The cooked herrings would be unbranded, and the others would not.
    Mr. GUINNESS: Any case of the marking of fish raises a very special question. It is not clear what is meant by a "foreign fish." Would any fish caught outside the three-mile limit be a foreign fish? I really cannot give the hon. Member a definition on that point.
    Mr. WOMERSLEY: I can give the right hon. Gentleman a definition of
    372
    what constitutes a "foreign fish." It is a fish caught by a foreign fisherman from a foreign boat with a foreign net.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 12.—(Short title and application.)
    Mr. HARRIS: I beg to move, in page 13, line 35, at the end, to insert the words
    "(8) This Act shall come into operation on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-seven."
    I think that was has happened within the last hour proves that this Bill should not come into operation until the traders, and especially the Lancashire manufacturers, have had a chance to see the result. It will have a very substantial effect on the whole trade, of Lancashire. New arrangements will have to be made for dyeing and printing the goods, and I think, after the discussion we have had, and the division of opinion among those on the other side, we should delay as long as possible the coming into force of this Measure. I suggest that the 1st April would be a most appropriate day.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The House has already twice decided this proposal in the negative. The hon. Gentleman first moved to postpone the operation of Clause 1, but that was negatived by a large majority. He then proposed to postpone the operation of Clause 2, another operative Clause, and that proposal also was defeated by a large majority. I now invite the House to give its third vote in the same sense in which it has already previously voted.
    Amendment negatived.
    Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.

  UNIVERSITY OF LONDON [MONEY].
  Resolution reported,
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session making further provision with respect to the University of London, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of all expenses incurred in the execution of the said Act by the Commissioners appointed there under up to an amount approved by the Treasury, including such remuneration as the Treasury may determine to be payable to persons employed by the said Commissioners."

  GAS REGULATION ACT, 1920.
  Resolved,
  "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Citizens of the city of Salford, which was presented on the 4th August and published, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to he made, by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Farnham Gas and Electricity Company, which was presented on the 25th October and published, he approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Godalming Gas and Coke Company, Limited, which was presented on the 25th October and published, he approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Hampton Court Gas Company, which was presented on the 25th October and published, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Herne Bay Gas Company, Limited, which was presented on the 25th October and published, be approved."
  Sir B. CHADWICK: I beg to move:
  "That the draft of a Special Order propased to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the United
  374
  District Gas Company, which was presented on the 25th October and published, be approved."
  Mr. BUCHANAN: There is a point in which I am interested, about the increase in the price of gas in various parts of the country by a Board of Trade Order. Does any of these Orders include anything in relation to the price of gas and the power of municipalities to increase it to a higher rate than that which has already been granted to them?
  Sir B. CHADWICK: Certainly. They relate to the price of gas, but each of these Orders has been the subject of inquiry, and none of them is opposed.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: May I give an illustration? The city of Glasgow, part of which I represent, has a statutory limit for the price of gas. I notice from the Press that the Board of Trade have given them liberty to increase the price for that limit to a very much higher one. What steps can I take to raise that matter. I cannot see that it is contained in any of these Orders. Can the hon. Gentleman inform me subsequently of any method by which I can raise the question?
  Sir B. CHADWICK: If the hon. Member will communicate with me, I will do what I can.
  Mr. MACLEAN: Is not the point which it is sought to be brought out hire what steps are taken by local authorities who are seeking to increase by these Regulations the price of gas from the limit already set out in the byelaws and statutes governing their powers. What steps do they take to acquaint people in their localities with the fact that they intend to apply for powers to increase further the limit of the price they can charge for gas, and to give the consumers an opportunity of making representations to the Board of Trade and showing that they object to it. So far as I know no intimation was given that I could see in the Glasgow Press informing the people that it was intended by the Corporation to apply for powers to increase the price of gas.
  Sir B. CHADWICK: These orders are subject to statutory conditions of notice. Certain notice has to be given, and after that a public inquiry is held by a Board of Trade official, and everyone has an opportunity of attending the inquiry.

  375
  There is not the slightest ground to fear that any people will not have had an opportunity of laying their case if it be desired to do so.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I do not wish to be vexatious, but. I do wish to point out that the city which I represent has applied to the Board of Trade for an order entitling them to increase the price of gas in that city.
  I have since tried to find out what method is open to me Parliamentarily to prevent the city from raising the price of gas. I find that the Board of Trade have given an Order, but I cannot find any Parliamentary supervision which I have over the matter. The only object I have in raising the matter is to say that while it may not be a matter for general discussion on any of these Orders we might at any rate have a chance of raising it here with the Board of Trade.
  Mr. SPEAKER: In regard to the Parliamentary procedure, I shall be prepared
  376
  to look into the point which the hon. Member has raised and let him know.
  Resolved,
  "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of Widnes, which was presented on the 25th October and published, be approved."—[Sir B. Chadwick.]
  The remaining Government Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Eighteen Minutes before Twelve o'clock.