§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £47,100, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for Grants in respect of Police Expenditure and for a Grant in Aid of the Police Federation in Scotland.
§ Mr. BUCHANANMay we have a brief explanation of this Vote?
§ Sir J. GILMOURThis is a Supplementary Vote for grants in respect of police expenditure and for a grant-in-aid of the Police Federation in Scotland. It provides for the abolition of certain deductions which used to be made from police pay, and it is carrying out a recommendation contained in the report of a committee which considered this subject in June, 1925. That is why we are asking for this additional grant.
§ Mr. BUCHANANI understand that a certain proportion of this money has to be paid by the local authorities, and I would like to know whether the Secretary of State for Scotland has received any protests from local authorities against this proposal?
§ Sir J. GILMOURThe share that is borne by the local authorities was a matter of discussion with the local authorities, but it is in the main agreed.
§ Mr. N. MACLEANCan the right hon. Gentleman explain what the anticipated saving in regard to the Police Federation means, and where the saving is to be effected? It is only £50, but I think it is just as well that the Committee should know exactly how it arises.
§ Sir J. GILMOURThis is merely a small sum which it is anticipated will not be required for the purpose for which it was voted.
§ Mr. MACLEANWe have an inquiry going on in Scotland now with regard to certain things which are alleged to have been done, and there are other places in Scotland, and in England as well, where certain allegations are being made against individuals that they have abused their rank in the police force to try to keep constables from accepting the usual offices in the Police Federation. I want to know exactly what this is. It is evident, from what the right hon. Gentleman has said, that he does not know what this amount was for, or how this saving is going to be effected. All that he knows is that it is £50, but that is no more and no less than the rest of the Committee knows, and the Committee is entitled to some explanation as to why this saving is being effected.
§ Captain GARRO-JONESI do not know whether many hon. Members realise that we are voting a sum of £47,000, and an attempt has been made to get it through without a word of explanation or discussion. It might be asked what right an English, or, indeed, a London Member cif Parliament has to raise questions on the Scottish Estimates. The only right he has is that he represents a number of people who are paying their share of the money.
§ Mr. MACLEANNo; that is not so. Figures were submitted to the House only a week ago showing that Scotland was paying more than its just proportion of the national expenditure.
§ Captain GARRO-JONESI am afraid I should not be in order in entering upon a subject so large or so humorous, and I should not have the wit to reply to the hon. Member in any case. I wish to ask the Secretary of State for Scotland one or two questions about this sum. On being requested to do so, he rose to give an explanation of the £47,000, but I observed that the only sum about which he offered any explanation was a sum of £16,000. He explained very carefully the deductions from the rent allowances paid to the police, in accordance with the terms of the Report of the Committee of Temporary Deductions from Police Pay, and the additional amounts payable during the current year on this account are estimated to amount to £16,000. But we are voting £47,100. Might we have some 1393 little explanation about the larger remainder, as to which the right hon. Gentleman said nothing?
§ Sir J. GILMOURIt is quite true that there is a sum of £16,000 in respect of the deductions to which I have referred. As to the remainder of £31,000, a sum of £25,000, for which we estimated, was cut out by the Treasury, but now it is found to be essential. There was also another estimate by the Police Authorities, amounting to £3,000, and compensation for loss of Income Tax, which is now wiped out. All together that makes a total of £31,000. I would only add, with regard to the £50, that I understand the total amount allotted to the Police Federation was £250. It is solely due to the fact that the Police Federation did not require the remaining 250, and not for any private reason, that that sum is shown as a saving.
§ Mr. MACLEANThat brings out my point. Is that saving being effected by the attitude taken up by the chief constables in some places, of preventing police constables from accepting office in the local branches of the Police Federation, thereby making the local branch in question inoperative, and consequently costing no money?
§ Sir J. GILMOURIt has nothing whatever to do with anything of that sort.
§ Mr. LANSBURYI beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
I do so as a protest against taking further Votes at the fag-end of a Debate which we imagined would last till Eleven o'clock. I remember hearing the Prime Minister yesterday or the day before saying it was proposed to devote the whole of this evening to one Scottish Estimate.
§ Sir J. GILMOURI must protest. These Votes were definitely put down, and have been on the Paper.
§ Mr. LANSBURYThey may have been on the Paper, and you may protest, but I also sat here and listened to the Prime Minister, and it was given out the other day that we were going to discuss the Housing Estimates, and I think most of us took it for granted that that discussion would probably go to 11 o'clock. I know it is a very aggravating thing to the Lord Advocate to have to sit here and listen 1394 to us, but he has to earn his salary somehow, and part of earning his salary is listening to us. I have no doubt it is very disgusting, but if he sat on this side he would probably be doing what I am doing, though I am doing it worse. I listened to the Secretary of State for Scotland and I am as wise as when he made his first few remarks. I do not know what this £47,000 is for. I should like this Government of economy to tell me why it is that you have found £47,000 more to spend on the police. I understood Scotland was more peaceable than ever and that there is less need for police than for very many years past. At the bottom there is this footnote. I should like someone not acquainted with the Scottish Office to tell me what it means—someone who is going to vote for this:
The total approved estimated expenditure of the police authorities in respect of which grant is payable in the year ending 31st March, 1926, has proved larger than was anticipated, and has been further increased by the discontinuance since 1st August, 1925, of the deductions from the rent allowances paid to the police, in accordance with the terms of the Report of the Committee on Temporary Deductions from Police Pay (Cmd. 2444). The additional grants payable in the current year on the latter account are estimated to amount to £16,000.£16,000 from £47,000 leaves £31,000. What I really want to get at is what is the relationship between the additional grants payable in the current year on the latter account—will someone tell me what the latter account is—and the £47,000. It is so much Dutch to me. It seems to me that Scotland spends a lot of money on the police. The original Estimate was £765,000 and now you put on £47,000. No one has told us what the £47,000 is for [Interruption.] You may think you know, but the only people who know are those on the front bench.I have now got the Command Paper on which this Estimate is based. I will read the paragraph that deals with these deductions. A Report was made by Lord Lee, Mr. W. Anderson, Lieut.-Colonel Anson, Constable Branthwaite, Mr. Cattell, Constable Cowie, Mr. McCraig, Lord Deramore, Mr. A. L. Dixon, Lieut. Duncan, Mr. Walter Hogg, Sir H. Keith, Mr. Moylan, Mr. G. Strangeways—he must be a member of this Government—Mr. Turner, Inspector Webster, and Superintendent Woodeson. 1395 They were the Committee, and they were set up to inquire into the question of
a continuance of the deductions from police pay and allowances, and in the alternative the suggestion that the rateable deductions in respect of police pensions under the Police Pensions Act, 1921, should be increased, and to report upon that suggestion and upon any connected questions that may arise in the course of their deliberations.I cannot say what the evidence was. I suppose the evidence has not been printed. Apparently these gentlemen only met on three days. They had sessions morning and afternoon. It is an extraordinary thing to find this sum of £47,000 being voted, although the Committee did not take any oral evidence. I do not think it is the proper way for a committee to go about its work, not to have witnesses before it. I am not giving any money away to Scotland. I have great respect for my Scottish colleagues, but I am not giving them anything. A Scotsman does not, require anything to be given to him, because he takes care to take it. Here is the paragraph that deals with these deductions in respect of police pay and allowances. I hope the Committee will take notice. The Report says:The deductions which are the subject of our inquiry are (a) the deductions from rent allowances (with corresponding charges for quarters).What does "quarters" mean?[Laughter!] Hon. Members are amused. You can have quarters on your coat-of-arms. I do not understand what "quarters" means in this connection. [HON. MEMBERS: "Barracks!"]
§ Mr. ALBERYOn a point of Order. I cannot understand what the hon. Member is talking about.
§ The CHAIRMANThat is hardly a point of Order. It depends upon him who speaks and him who hears. Either or both may be at fault.
§ Mr. LANSBURYI have just came from a very big meeting, where I have been trying to do the Government a bit of good. My voice may not be as good as it ought to be. Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to remind him that I was calling attention to the Report upon which this Estimate is based. I am calling attention to it, because no one on the Government 1396 Bench has told us anything about the Estimate. Either the Secretary of State for Scotland tried to tell us but did not know sufficient about the subject, or he would have told us something that we could understand. I want to find out what this £47,000 is all about. The Committee, as I have said, met on three occasions for three whole days. They tell us:
The deductions which are the subject of our inquiry are (a) the deductions from rent allowances (with corresponding charges for quarters) at the rate of 3s. 6d. weekly for constables in England, and 2s. 3d. weekly for constables in Scotland, with higher rates for the higher ranks in each case.I do not think that: that ought to be possible. There is great inequality as between Scotland and England, and this is another injustice for my hon. Friends from Scotland to complain about. The Report goes on:(b) Supplementary deductions from pay at the rate of 2½ per cent. applicable to all ranks, which were introduced in 1922 as part of the measures taken by the Government to secure certain reductions in police expenditure recommended by the Geddes Committee.Mark that what they are doing now is exactly what I charge them with doing in other respects. One year they apply the Geddes axe, and in a year or two they repeat the whole offence. What is the good of having a great expert like Sir Eric Geddes, a grant wielding an axe, and then in a couple of years time putting the tree up again? As a matter of fact, the Geddes Committee did get this thing put on a certain footing, and the Government of the day took great credit to itself for reducing expenditure. Now, apparently, the Government intend to do exactly what Sir Eric Geddes said ought not to be done. I expect that that is how all the economy stunts will run; you will cut down one year, and put the expenditure up in another, whenever you are dealing with this kind of person. We are now told that we must cut down unemployment relief and education. But when it comes to the police we can go back, as it were, and undo the good work of the Geddes axe. That in itself is sufficient to warrant the passing of my Amendment.These economies, we are told, were imposed with the assent of the respective Police Councils for England and Scotland. 1397 I do not know what Police Councils they mean, whether they mean the Watch Committees or the Police Commissioners of London. I did not know that we had Police Councils for England and Wales and Scotland. Perhaps the Secretary for Scotland will tell us what this means. My point is that these Councils were consulted in 1922–23,
and it was accordingly provided in the respective Regulations that they should cease to apply as from the 31st March, 1923, to the English forces, and as from the 30th April, 1923, to the Scottish forces, unless renewed by further Regulations.That is only three years ago. Only two years ago you altered this business, and what I want to know from the Secretary of State for Scotland or the Lord Advocate—and if the Home Secretary were here I would like to ask him—is: Is this payment to the police the price you are going to pay for what you hope the police will do for you in May next? Is this part of the preparations for what you think will be a very difficult time? If not, will somebody tell me why you have changed your mind in two years? When we want more money in this House for certain services, we are told we cannot afford it. Last night when an hon. Member for Lancashire was speaking about the sheltered workmen and what the unsheltered workmen had to pay, you were almost lyrical in your cheers when he was telling you of the burdens that the producing workers had to bear. Yet here you are going within two years of an alteration to replace the burden on the very people that the hon. Member was asking you to safeguard last night. Nobody has given us a word of explanation. I have gained nothing from this document which warrants the money being paid.
§ Mr. DENNIS HERBERTYou have gained a quarter of an hour.
§ Mr. LANSBURYWhether I have gained a quarter of an hour or not, the hon. Member for Watford, where the brewery is, and the hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott) have often made speeches on economy, and I would like one or other to explain why this money should be voted. There is nothing in this Report that gives any reason whatsoever, unless it is the very sinister reason I suggested a moment ago. This was only in 1923. The Committee go on to say they 1398 have been continued by further Regulations for the years 1923–24 and 1925. That shows that the matter has been considered in the past right up to the present moment.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell me what these police councils consist of. I am speaking in the hearing of lots of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who have had to do with burgh and town councils and works' committees, and I venture to say none of them had heard of this police council till now. I would like to know who they are, what they are, and how they are constituted. These councils have been discussing this matter and have revealed an increasingly strong cleavage of opinion as between representatives of the police authorities, on the one hand and the police forces on the other. I suppose the representatives of the police forces are men who represent the policemen, and somebody represents the officials and the authorities. Are the police authorities the Police Council? [HON. MEMBERS: "Ask a policeman!"] No, I propose to ask the the Secretary of State for Scotland. Further in this Report I find:
When the matter came before the Police Councils for England and Scotland which met this year, the representatives of all ranks of the police"—that includes inspectors, sub-inspectors, superintendents, sergeants and constables—pressed for the immediate discontinuance of all deductions, while the representatives of police authorities"—
§ Sir J. GILMOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee proceeded to a Division.
§ Mr. BUCHANAN(seated and covered): On a point point of Order. Did you consider, Sir, in accepting the Motion for the Closure that no Scottish Member except myself has had any opportunity of speaking on this matter? I myself put two questions to the Secretary of State for Scotland, and I have had no reply. Is it in order to take the Closure without allowing Scottish Members to speak on an important Scottish Estimate?
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) was at fault in allowing a Southron to be the only Member to rise. [HON. MEMBRES: "You called him!"]
§ Mr. BUCHANANI asked for certain information arising out of this Estimate, and I had no idea that any Southron was
§ going to take part in the Debate I ask you if you will reconsider your acceptance of the Motion for the Closure in order to allow a reply to be made on the points raised.
§ The Committee, divided: Ayes, 203; Noes, 68.
1401| Division No.14.] | AYES. | [10.57 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Albery, Irving James | Golf, Sir Park | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Gower, Sir Robert | Oakley, T. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Gretton, Colonel John | Penny, Frederick George |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Grotrian, H. Brent | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Balniel, Lord | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Philipson, Mabel |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Hanbury, C. | Pleiou, D. P. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Harland, A. | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Blundell, F. N. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. | Hartington, Marquess of | Radford, E. A. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Raine, W. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Henderson, Lieut-Col. V. L. (Bootle) | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Hills, Major John Walter | Ropner, Major L. |
| Burman, J. B. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Rye, F. G. |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Holland, Sir Arthur | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Sandon, Lord |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Huntingfield, Lord | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Christie, J. A. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Skelton, A. N. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Jephcott, A. R. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Cookerill, Brigadier-General G. K. | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Smithers, Waldron |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Lamb, J. Q. | Stanley, Col. Hon, G. F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Cope, Major William | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Loder, J. de V. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Lucas Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Strealfeild Captain S. R. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lumley, L. R. | Thom, Lt-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Cunliffe, Sir Joseph Herbert | MacAndrew, Charles Glen | Thompson Luke (Sunderland) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Dalziel, Sir Davison | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | MacIntyre, Ian | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | McLean, Major A. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Wells, S. R. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Macquisten, F. A. | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel. | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple |
| Elliot, Captain Walter E. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| England, Colonel A. | Malone, Major P. B. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-.M.) | Margesson, Captain D. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Fanshawe, Commander G. D. | Merriman, F. B. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Fermoy, Lord | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Fielden, E. B. | Molos, Thomas | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Finburgh, S. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Forrest, W. | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | |
| Fremantle, Lieut. - Colonel Francis E. | Moreing, Captain A. H. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Gee, Captain R. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon, George Abraham | Murchison, C. K. | Viscount Curzon. |
| NOES. | ||
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hardie, George D. | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
| Baker, Walter | Hayday, Arthur | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Barnes, A. | Hayes, John Henry | Scurr, John |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sexton, James |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Bromfield, William | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Taylor, R. A. |
| Cape, Thomas | Kelly, W. T. | Thurtle, E. |
| Clowes, S. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Compton, Joseph | Kirkwood, D. | Townend, A. E. |
| Crawford, H. E. | Lansbury, George | Varley, Frank B. |
| Duncan, C. | Lawson, John James | Viant, S. P. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lunn, William | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Gillett, George M. | Maxton, James | Windsor, Walter |
| Gosling, Harry | Potts, John S. | Wright, W. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Ritson, J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES:— |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Mr. Warne and Mr. Allen. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Rose, Frank H. | Parkinson. |
Question put accordingly, and agreed to.
§ It being after Eleven of the Clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
§ Committee to sit again To-morrow.