CLAUSE 2.—(Power of local authorities to snake grants or loans.)

HC Deb 06 December 1926 vol 200 cc1701-57

Mr. VIANT

I beg to move, in page 2, to leave out from the word "given" in line 19 to the word "by" in line 21.

The Amendment will make the Clause read: Assistance under this Act may be given by way of loan.

The Amendment has been put down for a definite purpose. Those of us who are associated with it feel that the money which is advanced under this Act should be advanced by way of loan and not as a gift. The subsidy has been reduced for general houses, and the same logic should be applied in relation to this Bill. The agricultural community, principally landowners and property owners in the rural areas, have already had sufficient gifts by way of abatements and such like under other Acts, and they ought to be prepared to put their property in repair and to pay back to the State any assistance which may be given to them under this Act. I hope that the Minister in charge of the Bill will not argue that in many instances, unless money be given for this purpose, the property will not be put into repair, because the power already exists, and should be exercised, to compel owners of such property to put it into repair. We feel that if the State is prepared to come to the aid of these property owners, they ought at least to be prepared to pay the money back to the State, and the Amendment has been put down with that object in view. I hope that the House will be prepared to support it.

Mr. RILEY

I beg to second the Amendment.

I do so for the same reason which has been mentioned by my hon. Friend. Although possibly some case may be made out for advancing loans to owners of property who, even although comparatively well-to-do, may not be in a position to find definite money to put their property in repair, but may be in a position later on to repay any loan which may be advanced.

Captain WALTER SHAW

On a point of Order. Constant reference has been made to "repair." I do not see that word in the Bill.

Mr. RILEY

Yes, I withdraw the word "repair" and substitute "reconditioning" or "alterations in construction." It undoubtedly is a misdescription to use the word "repair"; it is understood that the grants under this Bill may not be used for ordinary repair. They are intended for alterations in structure and for reconditioning. Probably, all will agree that there is something to be said for advancing loans, but there is no justification, I think, for making grants from public funds to improve the property of people who may be in a perfectly good position themselves to fulfil their obligations. In an earlier discussion on the Bill the right hon. Gentleman argued that the people who are going to have the benefit of these grants or loans are not going to gain any substantial return. I want to remind the House that the Clause as it stands refers not only to existing dwelling-houses but also to buildings which are not now being used as dwelling-houses. Therefore, the grants will apply to buildings which may not at present be in use and may not be bringing in the owner any return whatever. They may be lying entirely unused and practically of no economic value whatever.

The Clause as it stands provides for grants being made to owners of such buildings as well as of houses, and it may mean that quite well-to-do owners, substantial landowners and large farmers, with buildings which they more or less regard as being used up, for which at the moment they have no, or little, use, and which have no economic value may be eligible, if the local authority approve, for these public grants. You may have such a building at present bringing no return whatever to the owner. It is not let, and it is not used as a house. Under this Bill he may have a grant to put it into condition for use as a house, and then he may receive, not as the Parliamentary Secretary said 3 per cent. upon his portion of the expenditure on reconditioning, but something like 20 per cent. I ought to try and make that point clear. The owner of such a building transformed into a house under this Bill will be entitled to get the normal average rent paid by agricultural labourers in that district. That is the definition in the Act. I believe Clause 5 defines the rent.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood)

No, Clause 3, Subsection (1).

Mr. RILEY

Yes, the normal agricultural rent is defined as follows: (i) in the case of a dwelling which had not previously to the execution of the works been, or which was not within the period of five years immediately preceding the execution of the works separately let as such, the rent which the local authority determine to be the average rent for the time being paid by agricultural workers in the district; That is the definition. Now let us take actual cases. Supposing, to put it at a moderate figure, the average rent paid by agricultural labourers in the district is 2s. per week. The owner of such a building, for an expenditure of £50, his portion of the total expenditure of £150 to recondition that building, can draw 10 per cent. on his outlay. If the average rent is 3s. per week, he draws 15 per cent. on £50, and if, as in some cases, it is 4s., he is entitled to 20 per cent. on his expenditure of £50. I submit that such interest is entirely unjustified. There is something to be said for advancing loans which are going to be repaid to people who are quite well-to-do but who cannot find the immediate capital necessary, but there is no justification for advancing from the public purse grants which would work out in this way.

Sir K. WOOD

This Amendment, of course, would cut right across one of the principal features of the Bill and one which, I believe, will bring perhaps the greatest benefit to the agricultural workers of the country. If this Amendment were carried, the Bill would simply make provision for assistance by way of loan. I should like to say, in order that the matter may be perfectly clear and especially as the word "repair" has been used both in Committee and again to-day, that the work in respect of which the grant is to be given is in relation to reconditioning and reconstruction. If the House will look at page 2 of the Bill, they will see there specified the nature of the work contemplated. It may consist of structural alteration, repair, addition, provision of water supply, drainage, or sanitary conveniences, or other like works, but shall not in any case include works of ordinary repair or upkeep, except in so far as they are incidental to or connected with any such works as aforesaid. It is perfectly clear that the grant is to be given for that kind of work specified in that particular sub-section. It is to enable owners to make such additions to their property, including the provision of water supply, drainage or sanitary conveniences, as will make the dwelling habitable that it is proposed these grants or loans should be given. Clause 3, which really answers the statement which the hon. Member has made, lays down very strict conditions under which grants can be given. The dwelling shall not be occupied except by a person, whether as owner or tenant, whose income is, in the opinion of the local authority, such that he would not ordinarily pay a rent in excess of that paid by agricultural workers in the district, or by an agricultural worker or employé of substantially the same economic condition employed by the person who is rated in respect of the dwelling; The rent payable by the occupier in respect of the dwelling shall not exceed the amount of the normal agricultural rent, increased by a sum equal to three per cent. of the amount by which the estimated cost of the works in respect of which assistance has been given exceeds the amount of the assistance given by way of grant, and no fine, premium, or other like sum shall be taken in addition to the rent; How hon. Members can say that is a gift to the landlord I am Personally unable to follow. If an owner were unable to obtain a grant given by the State, he would probably either have to sell some security which brings him in more than 3 per cent. or borrow money and pay it back at a higher rate than 3 per cent. Hon. Members at every stage of this Bill seem to be seeking to make out that there is some benefit which they have not yet been able to discover so far as the landlord is concerned. It runs right through the Bill that the benefit which these grants will give, and the contribution of the landlord, will go mainly, indeed almost solely, to the agricultural workers of the country, and to suggest that this provision of a grant should be omitted from the Bill will destroy one of the most valuable features of the Measure.

Mr. BARR

May I point out that if we accept the Amendment we free ourselves from any risk that the landlord should benefit at all; and that seems to be the desire of the Minister, This would be a most effective way of ensuring that the landlord does not benefit. I was a member of the Royal Commission en Housing in Scotland. That Commission was composed largely of members who share the views of hon. Members opposite, and they issued a solemn warning against grants of this kind passing into the pockets of landowners. I will only trouble the House with one or two quotations. In their warning against a direct subsidy to employers, landowners and speculative builders, they said this about grants: The difficulties and risks attending such subsidies require careful consideration. Subsidies of this nature would mean that the builder would be using the State resources to enable him to make a profit on the small share of capital supplied by him. In this way we should be relieving owners of duties which have been recognised as theirs from time immemorial—namely, that they should keep their property in proper repair. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not repair!"] Let me take up that interruption. I think the Lord Advocate will agree with me that the legal position is that a landowner is responsible for providing the workman's cottage and all works of construction, and that the tenant is responsible for keeping the cottage in proper repair. So much is that so that the Scottish Board of Health in their last Report said that it had not been possible for local authorities to take up the work of providing new houses for farm servants at all, and they gave reasons why. The first reason was that the Housing Acts did not apply, because the burden lay on the owner of the property and not on the local authority. In the second place, they said that farm servants were moving about from place to place so much that it was not possible for local authorities to build houses and put in those whom they could regard as permanent tenants, because these farm servants were flitting about from place to place. Under the Act of 1924, which

gives special facilities for the erection of houses in rural areas, the grant is £12 10s. instead of £9. They said this Act was not applicable because it applied only to houses that are let; these houses are not let but are part of the ordinary payment given to farm servants.

Therefore, if we give a grant for this purpose, we are reheving the landowner of a duty which has been recognised as his from time immemorial. The Minister of Health tried to make out that there was no real benefit at all so far as the landowner is concerned, but, surely, it is a great benefit to have you house reconditioned by a Government and local grant which will cover two-thirds of the whole outlay. The Government themselves realise that there is a benefit going to the landowner, as they have put in certain precautions. He cannot take advantage of it for 20 years; he cannot charge snore than 3 per cent. on the estimated cost of the works, although it may mean much more than a 3 per cent. return to him on the portion of the sooner he has to find. For these reasons I support the Amendment. I think it should be confined to a loan. I do not think we should give a State grant for such purposes as this.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 208; Noes, 78.

Division No. 530.]	AYES.	[4.22 p.m.
Agg Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Albery, Irving James	Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Fanshawe, Commander G. D
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.	Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S)	Fenby, T. D.
Apsley, Lord	Cazalet, Captain victor A.	Fielden, E. B.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon Stanley	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Forrest, W.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Foster, Sir Henry S.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Clayton, G. C.	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Cobb, Sir Cyril	Fraser, Captain Ian
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.	Cochrane, Commander Hon, A. D.	Frece, Sir Walter de
Bennett, A. J.	Cope, Major William	Ganzoni, Sir John
Berry, Sir George	Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.
Betterton, Henry B.	Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Gates, Percy
Boothby, R. J. G.	Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Curzon, Captain Viscount	Goff, Sir Park
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart	Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)	Gower, Sir Robert
Bowyer. Capt. G. E. W.	Davies, Sir Thorn s (Cirencester)	Grant, Sir J. A.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.	Davies, Dr. Vernon	Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Brats, Captain W.	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Greene, W. P. Crawford
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Dawson, Sir Philip	Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Briant, Frank	Dixey, A. C.	Grotrian, H. Brent
Briggs, J. Harold	Drewe, C.	Gunston, Captain D. W.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Eden, Captain Anthony	Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'i'd., Hexham)	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Elliot, Major Walter E.	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Buckingham, Sir H.	Elveden, Viscount.	Hammersley, S. S.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Erskine Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Harrison, G. J. C.
Bullock, Captain M.	Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Haslam, Henry C.
Burman, J. B.	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Hawke, John Anthony
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Everard, W. Lindsay	Headlam, Lieut-Colonel C. M.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Meyer, Sir Frank	Smithers, Waldron
Hermessy Major J. R. G.	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden. E)
Hills, Major John Walter	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive	Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Nield Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Oakley, T.	Tinne, J. A.
Huntingfield, Lord	Orsmby-Gore, Hon. William	Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Hurd, Percy A.	Owen, Major G.	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Hurst, Gerald B.	Penny, Frederick George	Turton, sir Edmund Russborough
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bi's)	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Jacob, A, E.	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton	Warrender, Sir Victor
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Raine, W.	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
King, Captain Henry Douglas	Ramsden, E.	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)	Wells, S. R.
Knox, Sir Alfred	Remnant, Sir James	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Rentoul, G. S.	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Locker-Lampson. G. (Wood Green)	Rice, Sir Frederick	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'tn)	Richardson, sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Loder, J. de V.	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Wise, Sir Fredric
Looker, Herbert William	Ropner, Major L.	Wolmer, Viscount
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere	Rugglee-Brise, Major E. A.	Womersley, W. J.
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen	Rye, F. G.	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
McLean, Major A.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Macmillan, Captain H.	Sandeman, A. Stewart	Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Sanderson, Sir Frank	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Macquisten, F. A.	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Mac Robert, Alexander M.	Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)
Makins, Brigadier-General E.	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Malone, Major P. B.	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)	Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain
Margesson, Captain D.	Skelton, A. N.	Lord Stanley.
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Potts, John S.
Adamson, W. M. (Stall., Cannock)	Groves, T.	Riley, Ben
Ammon, Charles George	Grundy, T. W.	Rose, Frank H.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Baker, Walter	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Scurr, John
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Hardie, George D.	Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Barnes, A.	Hayes, John Henry	Smith, Ben (Bermondssy, Rotherhithe)
Barr, J.	Hirst, G. H.	Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Batey, Joseph	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Bondfield, Margaret	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Stamford, T. W.
Bromley, J.	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Stephen, Campbell
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Taylor, R. A.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel	Kelly, W. T.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Cape, Thomas	Kennedy, T.	Thurtle, Ernest
Charleton, H. C.	Lowth, T.	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cluse, W. S.	Lunn, William	Viant, S. P.
Cove, W. G.	MacDonald. Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Welsh, J. C.
Dalton, Hugh	MacNeill-Weir, L.	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	March, S.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Day, Colonel Harry	Maxton, James	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Duncan, C.	Montague, Frederick	Windsor, Walter
Dunnico, H.	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Wright, W
Gillett, George M.	Naylor, T. E.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Gosling, Harry	Oliver, George Harold
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Paling, W.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Ponsonby, Arthur	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
		Allen Parkinson,

Mr. RYE

I beg to move, in page 2, line 26, at the end, to insert the words () where a building divided up into two or more separate dwellings exceeds such sum of four hundred pounds multiplied by the number of separate dwellings as aforesaid. I move this Amendment because there is no definition in the Bill of the word "dwelling." I am afraid that without such a definition a certain type of house may not come within the provisions of the Bill. The house to which I refer is the old class of big building, frequently found in the country, that has fallen from its high estate and has been divided in the past into a series of separate tene- ments. Such a, building would obviously be, whether improved or not, in excess of the value of £400 imposed by the Bill. I have, therefore, moved the Amendment to make it clear beyond all shadow of doubt that that type of old house, altered as I have stated, would come within the provisions of the Bill. The matter was brought before the Standing Committee in the form in which it is now moved, but the Minister was unable to agree with my view, and he was fortified by the Lord Advocate, who took the point that by virtue of Clause 1 and the words "houses or buildings" therein, and by virtue of Clause 2, Sub-section (3), there can he no possible question on the subject. But with all possible respect to the Lord Advocate, I suggest that the matter is not free from doubt. I suggest that it would be advisable to put the position beyond doubt by including the words of the Amendment. If not, as has so often happened in the past, the matter may have to come before the Law Courts for decision.

I know that the Minister considers that the words of the Amendment are superfluous. His view is that the Amendment would overload the Bill. But I have no doubt that in the past the Minister has expressed the same view regarding other Bills, and I have not the least doubt that the Parliamentary Secretary has expressed the same view, and that they have both been supported by the Law Officers of the Crown. But that does not alter the fact that in many instances, and notably in connection with the Rent Restriction Acts, questions such as these have had to come before the Courts, with great expense to the litigants. I hope, therefore, that we shall make the point clear once and for all, beyond any possible shadow of doubt. Assuming that I am wrong in my view, there cannot be any harm in inserting these words, but if, on the other hand, I am right, we shall be avoiding litigation and unnecessary cost.

Sir HENRY CAUTLEY

I beg to second the Amendment.

I think it is extremely desirable that there should be no possibility of litigation to decide this point, and that it should be decided now.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I cannot help thinking that my hon. and learned Friend who seconded the Amendment was sanguine in thinking that it was possible so to draft a Bill that no litigation could be undertaken afterwards in respect of it. Although I have given further consideration to the Amendment since the Committee stage, I still remain of the same opinion, not only that the Amendment is unnecessary, but that it would make confusion worse confounded. The Amendment does not read properly. It says that no assistance under this Bill shall be given "where a building divided up into two or more separate dwellings exceeds such sum of four hundred pounds multiplied by the number of separate dwellings as aforesaid." I suggest that he means the value of the building, but what he says is the value of the dwelling. If the Amendment were accepted as it stands, it would bring about the opposite of what my hon. Friend intends. There cannot be any possible doubt about this matter. The Bill is a Bill for converting houses or buildings into dwellings, and I do not see that we effect anything by taking the particular case of a house or building which is already divided into dwellings, and dealing with that, because the test we have to apply is, how many dwellings will the house consist of when it is improved, and in respect of each of those dwellings this limit of £400 will apply. My hon. Friend says there is no definition of "dwellings" in the Bill. Dwelling is not a new term. It is an old term, and I suggest that to put in a new definition of an old term is to invite litigation and not to prevent it.

Mr. RYE

I still think that there is a doubt about the matter, but in view of what the Minister has said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. RYE

I beg to move, in page 2, line 26, after the word "pounds" to insert the words Provided that, in arriving at the value of any dwelling any carving or panelling shall not be taken into account. In some old cottages there is to be found carving or panelling or both. That might bring the total value over £400, and that is not the intention of the Bill.

Sir H. CAUTLEY

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I am prepared to accept the Amendment.

Mr. CHARLETON

I see a very great danger in this Amendment. It will have the effect of getting two valuations of property, one a value after the effective repairs, and the other the selling value. A dwelling might have some carving or panelling on which the owner might put a quite artificial value, but in space and accommodation the dwelling might give only the equal of surrounding buildings. When later on the owner wanted to sell the property he would say, "It is quite true that it has only a certain space and

accommodation, but in addition there are some frescoes which have been covered with whitewash, and we have discovered that there are some balusters up the staircase which were carved in the time of Queen Anne." These are of no value to the house as a dwelling, but they might give the owner an opportunity of violating the conditions under which the State helps to repair the building and to put it into habitable condition. I therefore oppose the Amendment.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The house divided: Ayes, 197; Noes, 84.

Division No. 531.]	AYES.	[4.40 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth	Looker, Herbert William
Albery, Irving James	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Everard, W. Lindsay	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen
Apsley, Lord	Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Fanshawe, Commander G. D.	McLean, Major A.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Fielden, E. B.	Macmillan, Captain H.
Barclay-Harvey C. M.	Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Forrest, W.	Macquisten, F. A.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Fester, Sir Harry S.	Mac Robert, Alexander M.
Beckett, sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Berry, Sir George	Fraser, Captain Ian	Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Bethel, A.	Frece, Sir Walter de	Malone, Major P. B.
Betterton, Henry B.	Ganzoni, Sir John	Margesson, Captain D.
Boothby, R. J. G.	Gates, Percy	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	Meyer, Sir Frank
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart	Goff, Sir Park	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Gower, sir Robert	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Brass, Captain W.	Grant, Sir J. A.	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Briggs, J. Harold	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut-Col. J. T. C.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'i'd., Hexham)	Grotrian, H. Brent	Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Gunston, Captain D. W.	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Buckingham, Sir H.	Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Oakley, T.
Bullock, Captain M.	Harrison, G. J. C.	Orsmby-Gore, Hon. William
Burman, J. B.	Haslam, Henry C.	Penny, Frederick George
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Hawke, John Anthony	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)	Raine, W.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Hills, Major John Waller	Ramsden, E.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.	Rawson, Sir Cooper
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Remnant, Sir James
Clayton, G. C.	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Rentoul, G. S.
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Hudson, Capt. A, U. M. (Hackney. N.)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Cochrane, Commander Hon, A. D.	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)	Rice, Sir Frederick
Cope, Major William	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Huntingfield, Lord	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Hurd, Percy A.	Ropner, Major L.
Curzon, Captain Viscount	Hurst, Gerald B.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)	Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Rye, F. G.
Davies, Dr. Vernon	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Davison. Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Jacob, A. E.	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Dawson, Sir Philip	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Dixey, A. C.	King, Captain Henry Douglas	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustava D.
Drewe, C.	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)
Eden, Captain Anthony	Knox, Sir Alfred	Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)
Edmondson, Major A. J.	Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Elliot, Major Walter E.	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Skelton, A. N.
Elveden, Viscount	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)	Smithers, Waldron
Sprot, Sir Alexander	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)	Wolmer, Viscount
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W	Womersley, W. J.
Stanley. Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)	Warrender, Sir Victor	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)	Waterhouse, Captain Charles	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.	Wells, S. R.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Thomston, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Tinne, J. A.	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Titchfield, Major the Marquess of	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Tryon, Rt Hon. George Clement	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl	Major Hennessy and Captain Lord
Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough	wise, Sir Fredric	Stanley.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Potts, John S.
Adamson, w. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Groves, T.	Riley, Ben
Ammon, Charles George	Grundy, T. W.	Rose, Frank H.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Button)	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Baker, Walter	Hall, G. H. (Morthyr Tydvil)	Scurr, John
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Sinclair, Major sir A. (Caithness)
Barnes, A.	Hardie, George D.	Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Barr, J.	Hayes, John Henry	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Batey, Joseph	Hirst, G. H.	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Bondfield, Margaret	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Briant, Frank	Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Stamford, T. W.
Bromley, J.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Stephen, Campbell
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Taylor, R. A.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Cape, Thomas	Kelly, W. T.	Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Charleton, H. C.	Kennedy, T.	Thurtle, Ernest
Cluse, W. S.	Lee, F.	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cove, W. G.	Lowth, T.	Viant, S. P.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities!	Lunn, William	Welsh, J. C.
Dalton, Hugh	Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	MacNeill-Weir, L.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Day, Colonel Harry	March, S.	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Duncan, C.	Maxton, James	Windsor, Walter
Dunnico, H.	Montague, Frederick	Wright, W
Fenby, T, D.	Naylor, T. E.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Gillett, George M.	Oliver, George Harold
Gosling, Harry	Paling, W.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Ponsonby, Arthur	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
		Allen Parkinson.

Sir K. WOOD

I beg to move, in page 3, line 6, to leave out the word "forty," and to insert instead thereof the word "thirty."

This Amendment proposes to change from forty years to thirty years the period of the unexpired leasehold interest required to be held by an applicant who is a leaseholder. As we are making another arrangement in so far as the charge is concerned, the length of this period is not now a matter of great importance, and I think the House will agree that in all the circumstances 30 years is a reasonable period.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

I oppose the Amendment. I thoroughly object to the principle of this Bill because by it the ratepayers and the national Exchequer are being compelled to provide money to put in a decent state for habitation certain property the owners of which have refused to put it into proper condition. Taking this Amendment and looking forward to the end of a period of 30 years we must remember that if £100 has been taken from the ratepayers and taxpayers to put a single house into a decent state of habitation, the full value of that grant will he handed over to the owner of the property at the termination of the lease. A period of 30 years may be regarded by the hon. Gentleman as reasonable, but I think the Clause as it stands at present, with the term of 40 years specified in it, is giving the property owner much more than he is entitled to in increased value resulting from sums of money taken from the rates and from the Exchequer. The whole Bill is a standing condemnation of the owners of this kind of property. They have refused to make their property reasonably fit for human habitation and have forced the Minister to provide money from national and local sources in order to do what they themselves ought to have been compelled to do, long since. To make it possible, at the termination of this period, for the property owner to secure the financial benefits accruing from this Bill is an utterly wrong and anti-social proposal to which we should not agree.

Mr. A. GREENWOOD

When this matter was under discussion at a previous stage the Parliamentary Secretary said the object of this particular provision was to secure that, where the applicant was a leaseholder, he should have a substantial interest in the building. The hon. Gentleman explained that this period had been fixed as a reasonable period. That was the hon. Gentleman's considered view then; but after two short speeches from two hon. Members who wished to reduce the period to 30 years and 25 years respectively, the hon. Gentleman's view became elastic. The term "reasonable" is an elastic term, and after those two speeches, the Parliamentary Secretary, who had previously arrived at the conclusion that 40 years would be a reasonable period,

said he was disposed to make it 30 years. The Amendment is a distinct weakening of the Bill. No doubt had hon. Members opposite known that the Government were prepared to give way on this matter they would have tried to convince the somewhat elastic mind of the Parliamentary Secretary that 20 years or 15 years or even five years would be a reasonable period. This Amendment which has been accepted by the Government weakens the Bill and makes it still further a landlords' Bill; and we have no alternative but to force the Amendment to a division.

Question put, "That the word 'forty' stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 77; Noes, 198.

Division No. 532.]	AYES.	[4.53 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Groves, T.	Potts, John S.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Grundy, T. W.	Riley, Ben
Ammon, Charles George	Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)	Rose, Frank H.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Baker, Walter	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Scurr, John
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Hardie, George D.	Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Barnes, A.	Hayes, John Henry	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Barr, J.	Hirst, G. H	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Batey, Joseph	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Bondfield, Margaret	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Stamford, T. W.
Bromley, J.	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Stephen, Campbell
Brown, James (Ayr and Butt)	Jones, T. I, Mardy (Pontypridd)	Taylor, R. A.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel	Kelly, W. T.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Cape, Thomas	Kennedy, T.	Thurtle, Ernest
Charleton, H. C.	Lee, F.	Viant, S. P.
Cluse, W. S.	Lowth, T.	Welsh, J. C.
Cove, W. G.	Lunn, William	Wheatley. Rt. Hon. J.
Dalton, Hugh	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	March, S.	Wilton, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Day, Colonel Harry	Maxton, James	Windsor, Walter
Duncan, C.	Montague, Frederick	Wright, W.
Dunnico, H.	Morrison. R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Gillett, George M.	Naylor, T. E.
Gosling, Harry	Oliver, George Harold	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Paling, W.	Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Ponsonby, Arthur	Charles Edwards.
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Dawson, Sir Philip
Albery, Irving James	Buckingham, Sir H.	Dixey, A. C.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Drewe, C.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Bullock, Captain M.	Eden, Captain Anthony
Apsley, Lord	Burman, J. B.	Edmondson, Major A. J.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Burton, Colonel H. W.	Elliot, Major Walter E.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Elveden, Viscount
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, woston-s-M.)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Bennett, A. J.	Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Everard, W. Lindsay
Berry, Sir George	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Bethel, A.	Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Betterton, Henry B.	Clayton, G. C.	Fanshawe, Commander G. D.
Boothby, R. J. G.	Cobb. Sir Cyril	Fenby, T. D.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Fielden, E. B.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart	Cope, Major William	Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Forrest, W.
Brass, Captain W.	Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Foster, Sir Harry S.
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Briant, Frank	Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)	Frece, Sir Walter de
Briggs, J. Harold	Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Ganzoni, Sir John
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Davies, Dr. Vernon	Gates, Percy
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'i'd., Hexham)	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Goff, Sir Park	Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Gower, Sir Robert	McLean, Major A.	Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)
Grant, Sir J. A.	Macmillan, Captain H.	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Greene, w. P. Crawford	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Grotrian, H. Brent	Macquisten, F. A.	Skelton, A. N.
Gunston, Captain D. W.	Mac Robert, Alexander M.	Smith, A. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Smithers, Waldron
Hall, Capt. w. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Makins, Brigadier-General E.	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Malone, Major P. B.	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Harrison, G. J. C.	Margesson, Captain D.	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Haslam, Henry C.	Meyer, Sir Frank	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Hawke, John Anthony	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Tinne, J. A.
Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)	Moore Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Hills, Major John Waller	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.	Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive	Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Ward. Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Oakley, T.	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William	Warrender, Sir Victor
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Owen, Major G.	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Hume-Williams, sir W. Ellis	Penny, Frederick George	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Huntingfield, Lord	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Wells, S. R.
Hurd, Percy A.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Hunt, Gerald A.	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Raine, W.	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Ramsden, E.	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Rawson, Sir Cooper	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Jacob, A. E.	Remnant, Sir James	Wise, Sir Fredric
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Rentoul, G. S.	Wolmer, Viscount
King, Captain Henry Douglas	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Womersley, W. J.
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Rice. Sir Frederick	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Knox, Sir Alfred	Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Ropner, Major L.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Looker, Herbert William	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere	Rye, F. G
Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen	Sanderson, Sir Frank	Captain Lord Stanley and Captain
		Viscount Curzon

Word "thirty" there inserted in the Bill.

Mr. CHARLES EDWARDS

I beg to move, in page 3, line 11, at the end, to insert the words (and without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision)—

1. (i) will contain a bathroom with a fixed bath;
2. (ii) will as respects the walls or other partitions of the rooms used or intended to he used as bedrooms comply with the requirements of decency."

5.0 P.M.

I think this is a reasonable Amendment, and one which the Minister should accept. We are only asking for the common conditions of decency to he applied to these houses in regard to which public funds are used. We might not have had so much to say had the owners been doing these repairs on their own, but when public money is to be used, then at least common conveniences and common decencies should be provided in these houses. We may be told that we should trust to the local authorities to see that this is done. If the local authorities were only these in time industrial parts, I would feel more comfortable about the matter, but often the very person who will receive grants under this Bill will be the very man who will dominate these Councils. In those cases, we want to make it quite clear that these ordinary conveniences of life shall be put into any house, and that no house shall be built without a bath, and that. there shall be no alterations where public money is used within enforcing the provisions of this Amendment. All sorts of difficulties are put in the way in regard to the water supply, but if people bathe at all they must use water, and it is quite as easy to put the water in a bath as it is in a bath in an outhouse. We are getting tired of this class war that is being forced upon us. If hon. Members will read this Clause, they will see what I mean. It says that the local authorities shall be satisfied that the dwelling will after the completion of the works be in all respects fit for habitation as a dwelling by persons of the working classes. I would like hon. Members to note the words "by persons of the working classes." Nobody else. But is not "a person of the working classes" entitled to the ordinary conveniences of life? We are not asking for anything extra-ordinary; we are not asking for luxuries. We are asking simply for the ordinary conveniences, and I think it is time that the people who framed these Clauses ought to find some other way without bringing in this class distinction every time, and talking about making a dwelling fit "for persons of the working classes." But is not a person "of the working classes" entitled to a house which is just as good as anybody else's?

Sir H. CAUTLEY

Some of these houses have no water supply laid on.

Mr. EDWARDS

If there is no water supply, the people cannot live there.

Sir H. CAUTLEY

Of course they can.

Mr. EDWARDS

There must be a water supply before they can live there. There may be water in a well, or the inhabitants may get their water from a brook. There are plenty of places where you may not have a hot water system, but you can have water at the top of the house, and if there is a well you can have water in the house. This Amendment, I repeat, is a simple request for the ordinary conveniences of to-day's requirements.

Mr. MARDY JONES

I beg to second the Amendment.

Like my hon. Friend, I hope the Government at this time of day will come forward handsomely and say that they will accept this Amendment, because they have been proclaiming in this House and in the country for some time past that they have provided a large number of houses under the Acts of 1923 and 1924. We are all very pleased at that, but I would point out that in both those Acts there is the definite provision that a bath-room with a fixed bath must be provided. Of course, in districts where there is not an adequate water supply, a certain amount of latitude will be allowed in that direction and that is the chief argument that will no doubt be raised this evening against this Amendment. But I think that it is not a substantial argument, because everyone will admit that if the water can be provided at all, it is desirable that there should be a bath-room and a fixed bath. I understand that we are all agreed that that is desirable, and where there is a will there is a way. There is no rural district in this country where sufficient water cannot be provided by local effort and ingenuity to justify the existence of a bath-room with a fixed bath in every rural cottage. I have a large rural district in my own Division, and I know the water supply there is as difficult as it is in most rural parts, but I have discovered, when I have visited some of the local squires houses and the houses ct the vicars and parsons that they have got bath-rooms with fixed baths, and a water supply. What is good enough for the squire and parson is good enough for the agricultural labourer or any other dweller in rural districts, and a way could be provided. This country has an excellent water supply, and the climate is such that there is no excuse for the lack of water, either from rain water from the roof or from a well. There is not a single rural area in the country where, if provision is made by the local authority, an adequate supply cannot be had for this first human need of cleanliness, which, we are told, is next to godliness, but that is very far from the Tory policy in this Bill. I hope they will not stress the difficulty too far. I have had occasion to report to the Minister of Health a number of instances where full advantage has not been taken of the local water supply for drainage and sanitary purposes, even apart from the question of fixed baths with the water supplied, and I hope no difficulties will be put in the way of this Amendment.

I want to draw the attention of the House to the Preamble of the Bill, which states that the object of the Bill is to promote the provision of housing accommodation for agricultural workers and for persons whose economic condition is substantially the same as that of such workers. Surely that would include miners, as well as many other workers who live in rural districts. I regret to say that, as a result of the wage agreements now foisted upon miners in this country, an increasing number of miners will now be placed in the same economic position as the agricultural workers on the rural edges of the coalfields. A large number of mine-workers necessarily live in those rural areas, and if anyone requires a daily bath surely it is the miner, and unless we extend the provisions of this Bill to make it compulsory to provide a bath fixed in a bathroom many of the workers in the same economic position as the agricultural workers and other rural workers will be deprived of that daily necessity.

Then I would like the House to consider the question of the walls or substantial partitions. That is very important. I observe that under this Bill public moneys may be utilised to assist property owners to improve their existing houses and dwellings up to a maximum of £400. Last week the Minister of Health and his Deputy made a great point of the fact that they wanted to reduce the subsidy, especially on the ground that by reducing the subsidy it would be possible to reduce the cost of building houses in the future. If there was any ground for that argument—and it certainly weighed with the majority of the House, because they obeyed the party Whip—surely if a house is to be worth £400 in a country district the cost is sufficient to permit of a bathroom with a fixed bath being provided for these people. I hope the Minister will not depart from the now admitted housing policy of all parties in this country, that a bathroom with a fixed bath is desirable and should be available for every dweller in the land, whether they be in town, city, urban or rural districts. It is a pretence that an adequate water supply is not available, and it is a pretence which does not redound to the credit of a Ministry which prides itself upon its care for public sanitation.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

This Amendment and the speeches by which it has been supported show some confusion of thought, because they dwelt upon the strange analogy between the provision of baths in new houses and the provision of baths and bathrooms in old houses which were to be put under alterations. The Act of 1923 provided that every house which received assistance under that Act should be fitted with a fixed bath. It did not say in a bath-room and the reason it did not say in a bath-room was because it was recognised then that there would be cases when the provision of a bathroom would mean such a reduction in the space of other rooms as really to be an undesirable condition to be imposed. It is true that by the Act of 1924 the words "in a bath-room" were made to apply to the 1923 houses as well as to houses built under the Act of 1924, but in both those cases a discretion was given to the Minister, and that discretion has been used and no doubt will be used again. In this Amendment hon. Members opposite are not giving to the Minister the discretion which was allowed in the 1923 and 1924 Acts in regard to new houses. It must be perfectly obvious that if there was difficulty with regard to new houses, there will be much more difficulty as regards old ones. I would remind the House that under the Bill we are now discussing the total amount of subsidy which can be given in respect of any house is £100. If, however, the total cost of any alterations exceeds £150, the whole of the extra will have to come out of the owner's pocket.

Mr. PALING

Shame!

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

It is not a question of whether it is a shame or not. I want to examine what is likely to be the effect of the Amendment proposed, and I would point out that there is no obligation on anybody to take advantage of this Bill if the conditions are such as to make it disadvantageous to them to do so. If you are going to say that no assistance shall be given to any alterations to houses or buildings unless those alterations include the provision of a fixed bath in a bathroom, then one of two things will happen. Either you will have a large number of proposals scrapped because the owners will not undertake the additional expense, or, in order to keep within the maximum sum of £150, the provision of a fixed bath in a bathroom will be made at the expense of some other alteration or improvement. There are also many cases in the country where the water supplies are not laid on to the houses, and where they are not available, and I have not the slightest doubt that in some of those cases it might be better to spend money in making other improvements, which would provide houses with some further decorations or, perhaps, larger rooms, rather than to put in a bathroom for a bath for which there is no water.

In these circumstances, I think I am justified in saying that there really is a confusion of thought on this question in considering the provision of bathrooms under this Bill as being analogous to the provision of bathrooms in entirely new houses. There is no obligation upon anybody to take advantage of this Bill. My own anxiety all through has been lest owners should feel that it was not worth their while to work under the Bill, and I should be very sorry to accept an Amendment which throws upon owners, who might otherwise be disposed to improve their cottages, an obligation which they would regard not merely as onerous, but in many cases as unreasonable, and which might, therefore, prevent them carrying out any improvements at all. I would remind the House once more that there is nothing to prevent an owner putting in a bath and a bathroom where it can be conveniently and advantageously done, and I hope that in many cases it will be done, but to think, as hon. Members opposite do think, that you can compel them to put in a bathroom by inserting this Amendment in the Bill, is a complete misapprehension of the scope of the Bill.

Mr. MARDY JONES

The Minister has expressed an objection more to a bathroom than to a fixed bath. We are prepared to meet him by deleting the requirement to provide a bathroom, but retaining the provision of a fixed bath. Surely the cost of a fixed bath, apart from a separate bathroom, would not be so serious, and, as Minister of Health, the right hon. Gentleman must agree that a fixed bath should be available in every house, whether in the country or in the town.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

No, I am not prepared to accept even that suggestion, for the reasons which I have already given. I think it is more likely that a fixed bath will be provided than a bath in a bathroom, and, of course, the provision of a fixed bath I should consider to rank among those things for which assistance could be given, but I am not prepared to insist that in every case a fixed bath should be put in, because there are cases where even the provision of a bath alone would not be worth the money which would have to be spent upon it.

Mr. JONES

The Minister might make a statement something upon those lines in the Memorandum which he will issue to the local authorities later on, as an expression of opinion on the part of the Ministry that it is desirable that that should be done.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I will certainly consider that suggestion, but it must be remembered that my Circular will not be to owners, but to local authorities. However, I am quite prepared to consider that suggestion.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

I wish to support the Amendment, and to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that there is not quite as much confusion of thought on these benches as he would imply. He suggests that the confusion exists as a result of the 1923 and 1924 Acts, under which the new concrete houses are being built, and that we seem to forget that in those cases we are dealing, not with an absolutely new house, but with an older house, for which there is a limit to the amount of money that can be expended to put it into a reasonable state of habitation. The right hon. Gentleman must know that if the owner of the property is not willing, of his own free will, to keep his property fit for human habitation without coming to Parliament and securing a grant of £100, there is not much likelihood of the owner in those circumstances, of his own free will, supplying any one of his tenants with a bath, either in a special bathroom or in any other portion of the house, so that I think the confusion is rather on the Front Bench opposite than on this side.

The Bill sets out to do a particular thing, namely, to put houses in rural areas into a reasonable state of repair and fit for habitation, and to do this the Government provide a sum of money, which the ratepayers supplement with a similar sum. That indicates that the property owner, for some reason or other, has not kept his property up to a proper standard, so that there is very little hope that an owner, of his own free will, is going to provide the rural worker with a bath for a very long time. The right hon. Gentleman says that if you insist upon the owner including a bath, with or without a bathroom, he is not likely to carry out any sort of repairs, even under this Bill. I suggest that since the ratepayers and the Government are to provide £100 and the owner of the property £50, that ought to be a real invitation and inspiration to the owner to make his houses what they ought to be and to last for a very long time, and it seems to me that neither the financial doubt of the Minister nor the fear that the owners will not take advantage of this Bill is very well-founded. I think the Government should accept the Amendment, if only to make a stand in improving, in a very real and definite way, the standard of housing accommodation in our rural areas. There is not an hon. Member opposite, whether he lives in a rural area or in a town, who does not enjoy the luxury of a bathroom, and how can they vote against the provision of a bath for a rural worker When they know that they are giving the owner of the property £100 to put the property in a decent state of habitation?

As to the argument that a water supply might not be available, there are many rural areas where the water supply could and would have been obtained had it not been for the fact that so many rural property owners are also members of the rural councils, not for the purpose of making provision for anything, but to see that no money is spent. They are rate savers or rate preservers, and, as a result, many rural areas have neither the water supply nor the sanitation that they ought to have, because of these owners of property. I suggest that the Minister might very well have accepted this Amendment and let it be understood by the property owners that he feels that, just as he can enjoy a bath himself, so the rural worker ought to be permitted that privilege in his own home, and if the Government and the ratepayers are giving £100, it ought to be an absolute instruction to every person who is going to have his property improved to that extent, at somebody else's expense, to insist upon a bath, either in a special bathroom or at least a fixed bath in some part of the house, so that every member of the family can enjoy that luxury. A water supply would follow the provision of a bath, and it is the Minister of Health who can either lead the way to an upward movement, so far as rural housing accommodation is concerned, or, as be has done in the past, stand as a barrier to any such progress. I hope he will change to-day and get rid of a good deal of that confusion from which he is suffering, instead of charging us here with confusion of thought.

Major DAVIES

It: is most unfortunate that the House should be plunged into this bath warfare, particularly when many of us have been through all this discussion in the Committee upstairs. It seems to me that the first paragraph in this Amendment is the Lido paragraph and the second the keyhole paragraph, and, as far as the second is concerned, it is already covered in the Bill by directions to local authorities that they cannot give approval to this work unless it conforms to the requirements of decency. With regard to the bath question, I think it came as a surprise to some hon. Members opposite in the Standing Committee to realise that occasioNally in the country we are up against a situation where cottages have been built where there is practically no water supply laid on at all, or where whatever water supply there is is barely more than enough for the requirements of cooking, drinking, and washing. It is all very well to say that nobody should live in such cottages but, after all, the hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) pointed out that the real intention of the Bill was to do for landlords what they had been so slack as not to do for themselves. That is not the intention of the Bill at all. The intention of the Measure is, as far as we can, to improve the conditions of the tenants of rural cottages which have no prospect of being improved under any other Measure at present on the Statute Book. If hon. Members opposite, instead of thinking in terms of baths, would bear that in mind, we should get a little further with regard to this Measure.

It seems to be suggested that if you have not got an adequate water supply, and have to carry your water a considerable distance, in limited amounts, and then to heat it under difficulties, it is a matter of convenience to put that hot water into a fixed bath. I would remind hon. Members opposite that hot water is something like thought, and that depth is after better than superficial area, and that applies very much to the question of the provision of baths. Hon. Members opposite think that those who are supporting this Bill have two objects, and that one is to subsidise the landlords and the other is to prevent rural tenants having baths. Such thoughts do not enter into our minds, but we try to approach this question with a little common sense, and it is not common sense to put in this Amendment and tie down the conditions under which these improvements can be made, because such an Amendment is not going to prevent a lot of dishonest landlords getting Government subsidies. The result will be to prevent a lot of rural tenants having much needed improvements made to their cottages, which, without this Amendment, they would get. I am very glad indeed the Minister has resisted the Amendment.

Mr. BARR

I think the Minister was far astray when he thought we did not really understand the difference between a new house and a reconditioned house, but our position is that the very arguments that apply to compelling the provision of a bath, to the extent done under the Acts of 1923 and 1924 to a new house, apply also in the changed conditions to a house that is reconditioned under this Bill. In each of those Acts there was given a discretion to the Minister, but, subject to that discretion, the local authorities had power to insist, under the 1923 Act, on a fixed bath, and, under the 1924 Act, on a fixed bath in a bathroom. I would also point out that all the Commissions that have investigated this subject, at least in Scotland, have insisted very strongly on the need for such baths being provided in all rural as in other areas. I may say that in the Royal Commission on the Housing of the Industrial Classes, of which I had the honour to be a member, it was carried that local authorities should have power in all cases to insist on such baths, and I would like to pay a tribute to one who was not at all a Labour man. I mean Sir William Younger, of Auchen Castle, himself living in a castle and having every comfort and convenience, who ever acted on the truly Christian principle that he desired that others should have, in whatever circumstances of life, the same comforts and convenience as he enjoyed himself, and who led the movement in that Commission to give power to all local authorities to insist on baths and bathrooms being provided.

Not only so, hut the Scottish Conference on Agricultural Policy which, I think, in many of its features, has the support of hon. and right hon. Members opposite, laid down that new houses, at least, should be of three apartments, and should have a bath-room unless that was dispensed with by the local authorities. What are some of the objections to our insistence on baths? I know one of the objections is that agricultural workers have no desire for them, and that they are not appreciated by them. I dare say it would not be difficult to give the reason. As a matter of fact one farm servant, Mr. James Rothiemay who, I think, afterwards became the general secretary of the Farm Labourers Union in Scotland, said: There are some who cannot appreciate it, because they do not know what it means. They have not had a bath so long as they can remember, and they look upon it as likely to be a source of trouble. At the same time the Convener of Dumfries-shire and the Sanitary Inspector of Kirkcudbright and many farm servants themselves came forward to state how much baths were appreciated. Another argument was that the miners and agricultural labourers would not know how to use a bath, and, particularly, we were told that they would put coals in the bath. Why does any woman put coals in her bath? Because she has not been provided with a coal cellar, and as long as you do not give her a coal cellar, I think it a fit and proper protest to go on putting coals in the bath.

I should like this scheme to be something of an education, and the more of these conveniences and comforts you give, the more you are educating the tastes of the people to desire and appreciate these things. There were some strong evidence of that. We had 45,000 new houses provided, to the extent of 36 per cent. out of State money, for agricultural labourers in Ireland, and the testimony was that the houses were on the whole well-kept, and every convenience was appreciated in a way it had not been before. Some of the objections are as to the difficulty of putting a bath in an old house, and as to the lack of water supply. In this very Measure, in the first Clause, Subsection (2, b), provision is taken for schemes to bring in water supplies, among other things. Therefore, you will, at a small expense probably, be able to lay down a water supply that may serve several of these agricultural labourers. Therefore, that difficulty does not apply very seriously. I lived in the country myself, and I may say that any water had to be got by hard pumping from a well that was sunk. We do not wish to be unreasonable. We would be quite satisfied to have it subject to discretion of the local authority, as it is in the 1923 and 1924 Acts, so that such an arrangement, if found impossible, would be dispensed with. We do not wish to insist, if the thing be absolutely unreasonable and impossible. The Minister said that only £100 could be provided, and the owner would be required to do it at his own expense. But the owner is getting a gift, really, subject to certain conditions, of £100, and he could well afford on his own account in such a case to put in a bath and bathroom.

I would like to echo what fell from my hon. Friend, that, after all, the agricultural labourer is as much entitled to his bath, and I would even say he needs it more than any hon. Member in this House. I do not want to quote too much, but I cannot help recalling the words of John Ball: By what right are they whom we call lords greater folk than we? On what grounds have they deserved it? They have leisure and fine houses; we have pain and labour, the rain and the wind in the fields. And yet it is of us and of our toil that these men hold their state. It is because they have to sweat in the fields that they need water supply and baths more than others. This should not be a mere slipshod Measure, and a mere apology for providing houses. We are really fixing in these rural houses the condition of housing which may prevail for a generation. I know in Scotland it has been impossible to get the authorities to move at all, to have anything done under any of the Acts. The last Report of the Scottish Board of Health is a continual chorus of inability to get the Act applied. The 1919 Act, they say, for some reason was not taken advantage of; and as to the 1923 Act, they say there is no information as to the extent these powers have been used for the purpose of providing houses for farm servants. There is the same chorus of regret and disappointment at the 1924 Act, that even the inducements specially held out have not led authorities to move. Therefore, I believe that they will rely on this, and make it an excuse that something has been done. We think that something more worthy and more substantial should be done, because it may fix the housing in many areas for a generation. I am sure the Secretary of State for Scotland will bear me out that in this matter of sanitary conveniences in the rural areas of Scotland, taken as a whole, the condition is a deplorable one, if not a scandalous one. George Ramage, a ploughman, was questioned before the Royal Commission: Do you know of any case where proper sanitary appliances are put into ploughmen's houses? The answer was: No—in no case in the countryside. I say here is an opportunity, in a small way, apart from anything that is imposible to be done, to press this forward and do something to remedy the scandalous condition of affairs, and to educate the taste of the workers in rural areas. I believe a good deal of this work that is proposed is no real economy at all. It will all have to be done over again. Mr. Middleton, factor on the Kilmarnock estates, said before the Commission that "to patch them up, it would not be worth while." And yet to the backward authorities in Scotland you are giving the excuse to say that a great deal has been done, and that they need not think of producing new houses.

I should like to say one word on the other part of the Amendment, as to the partition of the rooms and the requirements of decency. I think this is a very urgent matter in Scotland. I would not like to weary the House with too many figures, but I will give one or two that may perhaps astonish some hon. Gentlemen as to the condition of affairs in Scotland generally, and particularly in regard to apartments with only one room. In the census of 1921 there are figures showing the numbers of occupants living in the single-roomed house. I will not deal with rooms that have four or under, but will take those with five dwellers and over in a single-apartment house, undivided, and without any partition. The number of houses with five living in those conditions is 12,657. In the case of six dwelling in single-roomed house the number of houses is 7,712; seven in the single-roomed house, 4,005; eight in the single-roomed house, 1,865; and nine in the single-roomed house, 806 houses. [An HON. MEMBER: "Are those rural?"] I said for the whole of Scotland. There are 435 that have more than nine dwelling in the single-roomed house running up to 13 and 14. I say that is contrary to all decency, to all morality and to all Christianity, and I cannot understand how the Government should not take advantage of this Amendment, and at least provide some partition and some manner of decency in the houses which they are reconditioning.

Mr. RYE

I only intervene because of the reference to overcrowding made by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. If there is—and I have no doubt it is the case—so much overcrowding in Scotland, does he think that the cottager with limited accommodation to-day will thank him or his party for moving and pressing an Amendment which will result in taking away one of the rooms, and turning it into a bathroom?

Mr. CHARLETON

We are accused of not thinking out the question raised in this Bill, and I should like to answer one of the points made by the hon. and gallant Member for Yeovil (Major Davies). An argument he put up against having a bath in an agricultural cottage was that they could only heat water under difficulties. I should like to ask whether a house where they can only heat water under difficulties is a really habitable house? Of course, he, perhaps, is so far up in the social scale, that it never comes under his notice, but we of the working classes have to do our own washing at home, for instance, and we need water for that purpose once a week and sometimes more often, and I do suggest that if water cannot be heated in quantities sufficient for the weekly washing, that house is not habitable.

Sir W. LANE MITCHELL

They take it to wash-places.

Mr. CHARLETON

The hon. Member does not know anything about it. If he were put to wash his own shirt, or if he had to light a copper fire, he would not know how to do it.

Major DAVIES

Are all these graceful compliments being applied to me?

Mr. CHARLETON

I was replying to the hon. Member for Streatham (Sir W. Lane Mitchell), who never makes a speech. If he knew the conditions from actual experience, and not merely from passing in a motor-car, enjoying the beauties of the country from the outside, he would not have spoken as he did. It does seem to me that the first thing that is necessary in a modern house is the proper heating of water. Things have changed since the days of Erasmus. The Minister spoke about the cost of putting in a bath. The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. Mardy Jones) offered a compromise and again the Minister objected to that. Does he know that a bath with brass fittings can be bought for £3 15s., and that to fix a waste pipe to it would not cost more than £2 or £3? In country places where there is only a well or a pump a fixed bath with a waste pipe would be a Godsend to the woman.

There has been talk about coals being kept in the bath. I know how that story began. In the East End of Loudon, 25 years ago, some well-intentioned people built houses for the working classes and put in baths. The baths were put in the scullery, and had neither a water supply nor a waste pipe. The rents were very high, and the tenants found it necessary to let some of the rooms, and as in those circumstances the fixed bath was found to be more trouble than a portable bath, and as there was no adequate coal cellar, the bath was used as a coal store. That is the whole story. In a modern house we ought to have a bath; even if there was not a water supply, a bath with a waste pipe would be useful to prevent waste water having to be carried about. I suggest that most cottagers want enough water every now and again in order to scald a pig. I am not a countryman, but I have been a good deal in the country, going with trains into the country and having to stay the night, and I have lodged with country people, and have many a time helped to scald a pig, carrying it to the bath after it has had its throat cut. If there is enough water to wash clothes and to scald a pig, surely there will be enough water for a bath. It seems that we are getting back to the old conditions where, when a tenant complained about the drains, the landlord thought he ought to be satisfied with a twopenny packet of carbolic powder. This Amendment is being resisted entirely in the interests of landlords and against the interests of cottagers.

Mr. VIANT

I wish to reinforce the appeal made to the Minister by the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. Mardy Jones). We know there are difficulties in regard to water supply in the country, but the difficulties are not insuperable. They may be when dealing with a single cottage, but there will be numbers of instances where a row of cottages will be reconditioned, and in those circumstances the collective effort of the rural council, or even of the county council, could provide an adequate water supply. A good water supply is essential for the health of the community, and it is agreed also that a bath is essential for the health of a person; and I think we ought to give as much consideration to the health of the agricultural worker as we appear to give to the owner of property. When a house is erected in the country for a well-to-do person if the water supply is not adequate steps are taken to obtain a sufficient supply. It ought not to be left to the owner of the property to decide whether a request for a bath is a reasonable request, because he will always make the excuse that it is not. I heard of a case the other day where a country house was erected and nine bathrooms were put in, and even in that case the servants were denied the opportunity of using one of them—so little consideration is given to workers in the rural areas. Where it is reasonable or possible for a fixed bath to be placed in a house, the local authority ought to see that it is done.

The second part of the Amendment has not received the consideration it deserves —I refer to the need for adequate partitions. Far too often partitions are erected which are in no sense of the word adequate. Often they are so slight that one can hear the thoughts of the person in the next room. Partitions ought to be of reasonable thickness, and so constructed that there is not likely to be a shrinkage of the timber with the inevitable result of gaps showing and the impossibility of guaranteeing decency. Partitions constructed with rough-edged timber, where the joints do not fit closely together, ought not to be permitted.

Mr. PALING

The arguments that have been put from this side are so strong that I feel pretty sure the Minister cannot contend against them, and that it is only prejudice which will allow him to tell his well-disciplined followers they must go into the Lobby against the Amendment. In Committee the Minister stated that in his opinion paragraph (b) of Sub-section (2), with the words "sanitary conveniences" included baths, and that if any owner of property who was taking advantage of this Bill wanted to instal a bath he could do so. I believe, however, that members of the Tory party themselves were uncertain whether those words would actually convey that meaning, and I know that quite a few of them were definitely of the opinion that they would not. One of them is an expert with considerable knowledge in these matters. The Parliamentary Secretary raises his eyes and wants to know who it is. Does he think the hon. and gallant Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle) is not an expert in this matter? He is the advisory medical officer of health for the county of Hertfordshire, and I believe he stated in one of his speeches that baths would not come under this term "sanitary conveniences." The Minister has indicated this afternoon, under pressure from the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. Mardy Jones) that he will consider a suggestion to send out a Circular stating that baths may be included under the terms of this Bill, and I want to press him upon that point. If we cannot get this Amendment, I am anxious that anybody who takes advantage of the Bill and may be inclined to pat in a bath—either a fixed bath in a bathroom by itself, or even a bath without the bathroom—shall have every facility to do so; and as the terms of the Bill stand I am afraid he may be prevented with the ruling that the terms of the Bill do not permit it. I am sorry the Government will not accept the Amendment; but if the Minister will give us this crumb we shall have gained something.

Mr. GREENWOOD

I am sorry the Government have not seen their way to meet us on this point. Even if we were to admit that our Amendment asked for something really substantial, it does not appear that we should make it any more acceptable by reducing it to more modest terms. I fail to appreciate the Minister's arguments. His first argument was that a fixed bath in a bathroom was not compulsory under the Act of 1924: but it is now 1926, and we have a right to ask for more in 1926 than in 1924. In 1923 we had the fixed bath; in 1924 we added the words "in a bathroom"; and now we wish to go a step further and to ensure that when houses are improved under this Act the improvement shall include the provision of adequate bathing arrangements. The right hon. Gentleman said, "If you do that, and there are other improvements, the cost will have to come out of the owner's pocket." Why not? He may receive up to £100 of public money, and, therefore, it is not too much to ask that the improvements should include the provision of proper bathing facilities. Then it was said there was no analogy between this Bill and the Housing Acts because, under this Bill, there is no obligation to build. That was perfectly true also under the 1923 Act, and if only compulsory duties are to have conditions attached to them, then I fear the fabric of English law will fall to pieces. Our point is that, just as the 1923 and the 1924 Acts imposed definite conditions with regard to bathing facilities, similar obligations ought to apply to houses which under this Act, are to be improved at the expense largely of the public. I would like the House to know where we stand on this matter. We say that if houses in the country are to be improved the improvement should include bathing facilities, and we have already admitted that we would be pre-

pared to compromise on our original Amendment.

Where do hon. Members opposite stand on this question? No assistance must be given under this Bill unless the local authorities are satisfied that the dwelling will, after the completion of the work, be in all respects fit for habitation as a dwelling by persons of the working classes. The rebuff we have had to-night means evading that Clause, and that the Government does not regard the provision of a bath as being necessary to make a house satisfactory from the working-class point of view. The action of the Government on this Amendment bears no other interpretation, and it is a direct discouragement to the improvement we suggest. Consequently it must go forth from this House if this Amendment is defeated, that the Government standard of working-class houses is one which does not require the provision of a bath or of a fixed bath at all. I hope, on reflection, the Government will see the wisdom of providing some definite standard in this matter, and it ought to be possible to arrive at some form of words to secure that, if there is not to be a fixed bath in a bathroom, there should be a fixed bath, and it should not go forth that the Government's idea of a working-class house is something which approximates to a stable.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 95; Noes, 227.

Division No. 533.	AYES.	[6.4 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Duncan, C	Lowth, T.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Dunnico, H.	Lunn, William
Ammon, Charles George	Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)
Attlee, Clement Richard	Gillett, George M.	March, S.
Raker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)	Gosling, Harry	Maxton, James
Baker, Walter	Graham, Rt. Hon. Win, (Edin., Cent.)	Montague, Frederick
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Greenall, T.	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Barr, J.	Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Naylor, T. E.
Batey, Joseph	Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Oliver, George Harold
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Groves, T.	Paling, W.
Bondfield, Margaret	Gruody, T. W.	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Bromfield, William	Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)	Ponsonby, Arthur
Bromley, J.	Hall, F. (York, W.R. Normanton)	Potts, John S.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel	Hardie, George D.	Riley, Ben
Cape, Thomas	Harris, Percy A.	Rose, Frank H.
Charleton, H. C.	Hayes, John Henry	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Clowes, S.	Hirst, G. H.	Scurr, John
Cluse, W. S.	Hirst, W, (Bradford, South)	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Connolly, M.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Cove, W. G.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Dalton, Hugh	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Kelly, W. T.	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Day, Colonel Harry	Kennedy, T.	Stamford, T. W.
Dennison, R.	Lee, F.	Stephen, Campbell
Taylor, R. A.	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney	Windsor, Walter
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)	Welsh, J. C.	Wright, W.
Thurtle, Ernest	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Townend, A. E.	Whiteley, W.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Viant, S. P.	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)	Mr. B. Smith and Mr. A. Barnes.
Wallhead, Richard C.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. sir James T.	Eraser, Captain Ian	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Albery, Irving James	Frece, Sir Walter de	Moore, Sir Newton J.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Galbraith, J. F. w.	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Ganzoni, Sir John	Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph
Apsley, Lord	Gates, Percy	Neville, R. J.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Goff, Sir Park	Nuttall, Ellis
Atkinson, C.	Gower, Sir Robert	Oakley, T.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Grace, John	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Grant, Sir J. A.	Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Penny, Frederick George
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Grotrian, H. Brent	Perring, Sir William George
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.	Gunston, Captain D. W.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Bennett, A. J.	Hall, Capt. w. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-	Hammersley, S. S.	Raine, W.
Berry, Sir George	Harrison, G. J. C.	Ramsden, E.
Bethel, A.	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Rawson, Sir Cooper
Betterton, Henry B.	Haslam, Henry C.	Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Hawke, John Anthony	Remnant, Sir James
Boothby. R. J. G.	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Rentoul, G. S.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart	Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Rice, Sir Frederick
Brass, Captain w.	Hills, Major John Waller	Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon, sir S. J. G.	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Briggs, J. Harold	Hogg, Rt-Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Ropner, Major L.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.c. (Berks, Newb'y)	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)	Rye, F. G.
Buckingham, Sir H.	Hudson, R.S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Hume, Sir G. H.	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Bullock, Captain M.	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Burman, J. B.	Huntingfield, Lord	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Hurd, Percy A.	Savery, S. S.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Hurst, Gerald B.	Shaw, R. G (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Hutchison, G. A.CIark(MidI'n & P'bl's)	Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)
Cayzer, Sir C (Chester, City)	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.)	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Skelton, A. N.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Jacob, A. E.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)	Smithers, Waldron
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Christie, J. A.	King, Captain Henry Douglas	Stanley, COL. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Clayton, G. C.	Knox, Sir Alfred	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Wetlm'eland)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Storry, Deans, R.
Cope, Major William	Little, Dr. E. Graham	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Sueter, Rear-Admlral Murray Fraser
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)	Looker, Herbert William	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Lord, Walter Greaves-	Thorn, Lt. Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Curzon, Captain Viscount	Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere	Tinne, J. A.
Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset,Yeovil)	Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Davies, Dr. Vernon	MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)	Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	McLean, Major A.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Dawson, Sir Philip	Macmillan, Captain H.	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
		Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Dixey, A. C.	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Drewe, C.	Macquisten, F. A.	Warrencer, Sir Victor
Edmondson, Major A. J.	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Elveden, Viscount	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.)	Makins, Brigadier-General E.	Watts, Dr T.
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Malone, Major P. B.	Wells, S. R.
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Margesson, Capt. D	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Everard, W. Lindsay	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Fairtax, Captain J. G.	Meller, R. J.	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Meyer, Sir Frank	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)
Fielden, E. B.	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Windsor-CIive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Foster, Sir Harry S.	Moles, Thomas	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Wise, Sir Fredric

Womersley, W. J.	Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.	Major Hennessy and Mr. F, C.
Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)	Wragg, Herbert	Thomson.
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Mr. RYE

I beg to move, in page 3, line 25, at the end, to insert the words or on the ground that the nature of the proposed works would be prejudicial to the surrounding buildings or to the character of the locality. When I brought forward a somewhat similar amendment during the Committee stage, I used the words "amenities of the neighbourhood," and objection was taken to that form of words on the ground that it was too wide, and on the further ground that it would result in some snobbish individuals objecting to any alteration of a cottage because it would interfere with their amenities and convenience. Therefore, I amended the words for the purpose of to-day's Debate, and put them in the form I am now moving. I did so because I wanted to bring home to the local authorities the necessity of seeing that the surrounding buildings were not affected and not prejudiced. After all, as hon. Members will appreciate, there is a great deal of charm in our country cottages, and it would be a great mistake if the local authorities were to authorise anything that would take away and detract from that charm. For example, it would be open to a local authority to make a proposal for adding to a Cotswold cottage some tin shed or shanty, which would prejudice the surroundings, and for that reason I think that the House ought to accept this Amendment. It is put forward in the interests of all, and I hope for that reason the House will accept my Amendment.

Mr. HURD

I beg to second the Amendment.

I noticed in the "Times" to-day there is evidence of a new movement with regard to preserving the character of our villages, of which we are so proud. It is quite obvious that the character of a village would be seriously interfered with if, for example, you had a corrugated extension to a Wiltshire cottage. We are all very proud of our country villages, and, in view of this new movement, we should give local authorities the opportunity of taking steps to prevent things of a prejudicial character being done under this Bill.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

With the purpose of this Amendment as described by the Mover and Seconder I am in full sympathy, but I would like to point out to the House that that purpose is already achieved under the Bill as it stands. I listened carefully to find out what was the particular case which would be dealt with by this Amendment, and an instance was given of an inartistic extension to an artistic cottage. That is covered by the words immediately preceding, which are: The local authority …. shall refuse to give such assistance if it appears to them …. in the case of a house or building to which any historic, architectural or artistic interest attaches, that the proposed works would destroy or seriously diminish that interest. I think it is clear that assistance would not be given for the erection of any such thing as a corrugated iron extension, and I cannot see that any further words are required. I would also call the attention of my hon. Friends to the fact that The local authority may in any case refuse to give assistance under this Act on any grounds which seem to them sufficient. That being so, I think it would be superfluous to put in any further words; and, further, I am inclined to think that the words chosen by my hon. Friend—which, I may incidentally point out, do not read as they have been moved—might tend to cause a surveyor to take, perhaps, a stricter view of the powers of the local authority to refuse assistance than would be desirable. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment.

Mr. RYE

I do not think I should be tied down to the single instance that I gave. I agree that that instance is covered by the wording to which the Minister has referred, but there might be other cases. It might happen, say in a Cotswold village, that someone might wish to put up an addition which would not interfere with the architectural effect of any particular cottage, but would undoubtedly be prejudicial. I can call to mind a case in a village in Hampshire, where there is a very fine old half-timbered building, which probably was origiNally a yeoman's cottage, and, immediately opposite it, some years ago, an atrocious modern building was erected in the ugliest possible red brick, with stone facings and a tiled roof; and that building undoubtedly, by its mere presence, has detracted from the value of its surroundings. It is that class of building about which I am concerned. I fully admit that under this Bill there will be no question of the erection of a new building, but there must and will be many cases where something might be done by virtue of the Bill that would have an effect on the surroundings. The countryside, of which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Hurd) has correctly said, everyone is so proud, is one of the attractions to visitors who come to this country from abroad. It is desirable that they should be able to able to see these delightful cottages in their wonderful old surroundings, and, if we allow local authorities, who may be possessed of no taste whatever, to pass schemes which will detract from the beauty of the surroundings, we shall be making a very great mistake. Although I agree that the Minister has given a convincing reply as regards the instance I mentioned, I could, if I had sufficient time and if I had had sufficient experience of speaking in this House, place before it many others, and I have not the least doubt that those who have more skill in these matters would be able to multiply instances. However that may be, I suggest to the House that no possible harm could come from the insertion of these words, and that it is in our interest to see that rural surroundings are retained with their present charm. I hope, therefore, that the Minister, on reflection, even now may accept my Amendment, which I intend to press.

Mr. PALING

One might think, if we had not been through the Committee stage, during which this matter has already been discussed, that the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Rye), in putting down this Amendment, was trying to carry out in detail the elaborate description which the Minister gave in his Second Reading speech, when he referred to the aesthetic qualities of such places, to the preservation of the genius that existed there, and the rest of it. I am not quite sure, however, that that is the case. I think, rather, that this Amendment is designed to carry out the idea of an Amendment which the hon. Member put down in Committee, and which contained the word "amenities." In any event, whatever the hon. Member may mean, it seems to me curious to suggest that we should only improve the housing accommodation of workers where it does not interfere with any interest or with anything that is beautiful in the eyes of she hon. Member. It seems to be suggested that, if building an extra room—and I think the hon. Member quoted this in Committee— which might make all the difference between the house being fit for habitation and not fit for habitation, was going to spoil the amenities of the place, the room ought not to be built. Some of these old cottages, however, to which the hon. Member referred in such glowing terms, are only beautiful on the outside. Inside, they are equivalent to some of the worst slums in our cities. If I thought that the inclusion of an Amendment like this meant that, because of their outside beauty, these houses had to stop where they were, and the people had to live in them under conditions approaching slumdom, I should, on that ground alone, resist the Amendment with all the force of which I am capable.

There is another thing in regard to which I am a bit suspicious of this Amendment. I suspect that it is designed to prevent the conversion into working-class houses of such buildings as may be within the vicinity of the houses of certain wealthy gentlemen. Stables, barns, cottages, and I believe the right hon. Gentleman mentioned piggeries, might be turned into houses under this Bill; but, while wealthy people in country mansions do not object to horses, cows, and so on, they would object to workers, and if workers were going to live in those stables and other buildings that were to be turned into houses, then, rather than have them in the vicinity of their mansions, they would take advantage of this Amendment, because, while they do not object to horses or cattle, they would object to agricultural workers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, and this snobbish instinct still exists in a good many people up and down the country, and I am afraid that this Amendment is being proposed in order to prevent places of that description from being turned into cottages for the workers. For these reasons I shall have pleasure in resisting the Amendment.

Mr. SKELTON

I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman entirely covered, by the reference to the preceding words of the Clause, the point made by my hon. Friend, which, clearly, is the general appearance of a whole village or district. I do not think, if I may say so in the most uncontroversial way, that the hon. Gentleman who spoke last has any real grounds for saying that this is a party, still less a snobbish, matter. I seem to remember that that right hon. Gentleman the leader of the Labour party, not very long ago, pointed out, as a real menace to the artistic value of England, the type of house that was being erected—

Mr. PALING

These are not new houses.

Mr. SKELTON

Quite so, but exactly the same argument would prevail with even greater force. One can quite understand that, in the more or less expensive work of constructing new houses, artistic considerations might well have to take second place, whereas, in the less expensive work of converting houses, surely, the general conditions of the district are well worth taking into account and keeping in mind while the work of conversion is being done. That is the whole point that is brought forward by my hon. Friend, and, if I may, I would urge the Minister, even now, to consider whether the wording to which he referred does really cover my hon. Friend's point, and, if it does not, whether it is not worth while, all class and party considerations being properly and obviously set aside here, to take particular care that the artistic qualities of England and Scotland, which are unrivalled, should be kept in view when we are passing this Measure.

Mr. RHYS

During the Committee stage, my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Rye) moved an Amendment which contained the word "amenities," and I, among other, thought that perhaps that might be too wide an application; but the form in which the Amendment has now been proposed removes many of my fears, and I do not see that there could be any harm in putting in words of this kind. My original fear was rather lest, in the case, say, of a village with thatched roofs, owing to the great difficulty in getting thatchers nowadays, a leaky thatched roof might be replaced by, say, a red-tiled roof, which would not be on the same lines as the roofs of the other cottages. I think my hon. Friend put the case very well when he painted out the desirability that the countryside should look its best, not only for the sake of those who live there, but for the sake of the numbers who go out into the country on Saturdays and Sundays, and who are a great source of revenue to those who live there. I think that for this reason it would be well that there should be some guiding words, agreed to by the Minister, of this nature. We do not, of course, want to see anyone living in a cottage with a leaky roof, and that ought to be the first consideration, but, subject to that, I am not sure that words of a similar nature to those proposed by my hon. Friend might not very well be inserted in the Bill.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Perhaps I may say one word more, in reply to my two hon. Friends who have just spoken. I do not think that even now they quite appreciate the extent to which the point is covered by the words already in the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Perth (Mr. Skelton) said that the point of this Amendment was to protect, not the particular building which was being altered, but the general character of the locality; but he did not explain how an alteration which is going to be prejudicial to the character of the locality can fail to be prejudicial also to the character of the building to which it is made.

Mr. SKELTON

I am sorry to interrupt, but what I had in view was that you might so alter a building, which had none of the characteristics described by the words which the right hon. Gentleman quoted from the Bill, but which yet might have a most deleterious effect upon the whole of the buildings around it which had those characteristics.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Then you would have to suppose that in an artistic village there is a building which, without being artistic itself, nevertheless cannot be described as prejudicial to the general character of the locality. Really, I think the distinction has become so subtle as to be almost fantastic. I must point out to my hon. Friends that, even if this Amendment were agreed to, it would still be necessary to rely upon the final opinion of the local authority. Under the Amendment they are only to refuse to give assistance if it appears to them that the nature of the proposed works will be prejudicial, but already, as I have pointed out, the local authority have power to refuse to give assistance on any ground that seems to them sufficient. Why should it seem to them more sufficient because these words are put in, when the preceding words have already the same direct effect? I suggest most seriously to my hon. Friend that this Amendment is not necessary, and that it is undesirable to put unnecessary words in the Bill.

Amendment negatived.

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Rye) has also handed in a manuscript Amendment, to insert words, at the end of line 2, on page 4, with regard to the case of a building divided into two or more separate dwellings. I do not propose to select that Amendment, because it is so like the one with which we have already dealt.

Mr. BARR

I beg to move, in page 4, line 22, to leave out from the word "paid" to the end of paragraph (c).

This paragraph contains a provision by which a breach of the conditions, which has admittedly taken place, may be condoned by the local authority on the ground that it was not due to the act, default or connivance of the owner, and he may still continue in possession of the house and of the privileges that he has under this Bill. These conditions are detailed. They are that the value of the house on the completion of the work shall not exceed £400, that the cost of the works themselves shall not be less than £50, and also, and perhaps more apposite still to the Amendment, the condition of the streets as well as the narrowness, closeness or bad arrangement would be such as to be against the repairs having been executed if it had been known. And yet more important is the kind of party that may be in the house. You may have a case where an agricultural labourer has left the house altogether, and it is now occupied by one who is not really within the bounds of the Act at all, and instead of the owner repaying the money because he has not honoured the conditions, the local authority has power to condone what he has done, and to allow the breach to continue; even a continuing breach may be condoned, and the matter may be carried on. Although the house has really, owing to new conditions, passed out of the purpose for which these grants and loans were given, and particularly the grants, because the loans are exempt from conditions as the Bill stands, they are able to condone the offence and allow him to reap the benefit without fulfilling the conditions.

This is a most dangerous power to put into the Bill. In Scotland—and I do not suppose it differs materially in England— these county councils are composed very largely of landowners, factors, and their friends—tenant farmers. It is provided under Clause 7 that a member must not vote on a question in which he is interested, but that does not prevent a landowner wielding all the influence he has with his factor and his tenants. Perhaps there is not a single man in authority but is a tied man and is subject to that kind of influence. This is a most dangerous provision, and it might lead to a great deal of real corruption, although it might be safeguarded to some extent by Clause 7. There is no necessity for it. It would create differences in different parts of the country. There might be a local authority that acted strictly and enforced the repayment of the money when the conditions were proved not to have been fulfilled, but in other parts of the country you would have continual condoning of breaches of the Act, and you would have these public grants given in respect of houses which no longer fulfilled the conditions, which indeed had not from the very beginning fulfilled the conditions. There might have been a breach, for example, of the condition that the value of the property should not be more than £400, or it might turn out that there had not been the needful £50 expended on it, and all the conditions as to those for whom the houses were provided might have become inoperative. They might not be fulfilled in the slightest degree. You have given away these grants of money, and because the landowner has influence with those who constitute the local authorities, particularly the county councils, you have the whole purpose of your Act set at naught and you have the grant still continuing to the landowner. It is a most dangerous proposal altogether to put in the Bill, and I certainly think we should offer strong opposition to this part of the Clause.

Mr. PALING

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir K. WOOD

I think that the hon. Member has wholly misunderstood the effect of the paragraph, and he particularly omitted to look at the words If the local authority are satisfied in any such case that the breach was not duo to the act, default, or connivance of the owner. The local authority first has to be satisfied that no breach of that kind has occurred. Anyone who has given any thought to the conditions named in the Bill could, no doubt, envisage a case like this, where an owner has let a property to a tenant who has sub-let it and broken all the conditions imposed by the Bill. He might very well let it to someone who used it as a week-end cottage without the owner's knowledge. It would be most unfair in a case like that that the local authority should have to say, "You have broken the conditions, give us the money back." The owner would obviously say: "I did not know a thing about it. It is entirely the fault of my tenant." To say that in such a case the authority may, with the consent of the Minister and subject to such conditions, if any, as he may approve, waive the liability to make repayment under the foregoing provisions is obviously the proper course. In a case where the original tenant sub-lets a cottage for a week-end residence it would obviously take the owner some weeks to go to the County Court, get a decision,

and have the tenant turned out. It would be very unfair in such a case that the local authority should not have power to say: "We are satisfied that you have taken proceedings. Obviously, it will take you a few weeks to get a judgment, and until that happens we will suspend the enforcement of the provisions of the Bill." That follows a good many similar Clauses in thousands of documents which have been drawn up in this country—I do not know about Scotland—for hundreds of years giving a discretion in a case of breach of covenant where the person who would be mulcted has had nothing to do with it and is in no way responsible. It is to meet cases of that kind that the Clause has been inserted, and it is a very proper and reasonable Clause.

Mr. KELLY

The hon. Gentleman's speech shows how generous the Government are to these people in making particular provision that they may not be put to the cost that is mentioned in the first part of the paragraph, which says shall on being demanded by the local council. The local authority has itself to make up its mind that it is going to take action, but the hon. Gentleman is not satisfied with that. He makes provision to protect those people who break the law in the way he has suggested by letting cottages for week-end purposes. I hope my hon. Friend will press the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 109.

Division No. 534.]	AYES.	[6.41 p.m.
Albery, Irving James	Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.	Christie, J. A.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C, M. S.	Brass, Captain W.	Churchman, Sir Arthur C.
Apsley, Lord	Briggs, J. Harold	Clayton, G. C.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Cope, Major William
Atkinson, C.	Brown, Maj. D. c. (N'th'l'd.,Hexham)	Courtauld, Major J. S.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Buckingham, Sir H.	Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Bullock, Captain M.	Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Burman, J. B.	Curzon, Captain Viscount
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon w.	Burton, Colonel H. W.	Davies, Maj. Geo.F. (Somerset, Yeovil)
Bennett, A. J.	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish	Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Davies, Dr. Vernon
Berry, Sir George	Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Davison, Sir w. H. (Kensington, S)
Bethel, A.	Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth.S.)	Dawson, Sir Philip
Botterton, Henry B.	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Boothby, R. J. G.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Dixey, A. C.
Drewe, C.	James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Duckworth, John	Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)	Rye, F. G.
Eden, Captain Anthony	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Samuel. A M. (Surrey, Fernham)
Edmondson, Major A. J.	King, Captain Henry Douglas	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Elveden, Viscount	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.)	Knox, Sir Alfred	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff. South)	Loder, J. de V.	Savery, S. S,
Everard, W. Lindsay	Looker, Herbert William	Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Lord, Walter Greaves-	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.	Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vera	Skelton, A. N.
Fielden, E. B.	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen	Smithers, Waldron
Forrest, W.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Foster, Sir Harry S.	Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
FaxCroft, Captain C. T.	McLean, Major A.	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Fraser, Captain Ian	Macmillan, Captain H.	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)
Frece, Sir Walter de	Macnaghten. Hon. sir Malcolm	Storry-Deans, R.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Streatfield, Captain S. R.
Galbraith, J. F. W.	Macquisten, F. A.	Stuart. Crichton., Lord C.
Ganzoni, Sir John	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Gates, Percy	Maitland, Sir Arthur O. Steel.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	Makins, Brigadier-General E.	Tasker, Malor R. Inigo
Goff, Sir Park	Malone, Major P. B.	Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Gower, Sir Robert	Marriott. Sir J. A. R.	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Grace, John	Meller, R. J.	Tinne, J. A.
Grant, Sir J. A.	Meyer, Sir Frank	Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.	Mitchell, S. (Lanark. Lanark)	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Greene, W. P. Crawford	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Wilder)	Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Grotrian, H. Brent	Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr]	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Gunston, Captain D. W.	Moore, Sir Newton J.	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C	Warner, Brigadier-General W, W.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph	Warrender, Sir Victor
Hammersley, S. S.	Neville, R. J.	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Harrison, G. J. C.	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Nleid, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Watts, Dr. T.
Haslam, Henry C.	Nuttall, Ellis	Wells. S. R.
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Oakley, T.	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Henderson. Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Williams, A M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G	Penny, Frederick George	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St.Marylebone)	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)
Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy	Perring, Sir William George	Wlnby, Colonel L. P.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Windsor.Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hope, Sir Harry (Fortarl	Raine, W.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)	Ramsden, E.	Womersley, w. J.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Rawson, Sir Cooper	Wood, B. c. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland,Whiteh'n)	Reid, D. D. (County Down)	Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Hume, Sir G. H.	Remnant, Sir James	Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Rentoul, G. S.	Woodcock. Colonel H. C.
Huntingfield, Lord	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Hurd, Percy A.	Rice, Sir Frederick	Wragg, Herbert
Hurst, Gerald B.	Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Hutchison,G.A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Ropner, Major L.	Major Hcnnessy and Captain
Jacob, A. E.	Ruggles-Brice, Major E. A.	Margcsson.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)	Cove, W. G.	Grundy, T. w.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)
Ammon, Charles George	Dalton, Hugh	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton'
Attlee, Clement Richard	Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)	Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Hardie, George D.
Baker, Walter	Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Harris, Percy A.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Day, Colonel Harry	Hayes, John Henry
Barnes, A.	Dennison, R.	Hirst, G. H.
Barr, J.	Duncan, C.	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Batey, Joseph	Dunnico, H.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	John, William (Rhondda, West)
Bondfield, Margaret	Fenby, T. D.	Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Briant, Frank	Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Bromfield, William	Gardner, J. P.	Jones, T. t. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Bromley, J.	Gillett, George M.	Kelly, W. T.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Gosling, Harry	Kennedy, T.
Caps, Thomas	Greenall, T.	Lawrence, Susan
Charleton, H. C.	Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Lawson. John James
Clowes, S.	Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Lee, F.
Cluse. W. S.	Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Lowth, T.
Connolly, M.	Groves, T.	Lunn, William

Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
March, s.	Sinclair Major Sir A. (Caithness)	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Maxton, James	Slesser, Sir Henry H.	Welsh, J. C.
Montague, Frederick	Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Morrison, R. c. (Tottenham, N.J	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)	Whiteley, W.
Naylor, T. E	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles	Wiggins, William Martin
Oliver, George Harold	Stamford, T. W.	Williams, T. (York. Don Valley)
Owen, Major G.	Stephen, Campbell	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield. Attercliffe)
Paling, W.	Taylor, R. A.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Ponsonby, Arthur	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)	Windsor, Walter
Potts, John S.	Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)	Wright, W.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Riley, Ben	Thurtle, Ernest
Rose, Frank H.	Townend, A. E.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Salter, Dr. Alfred	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.	Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. B.
Scurr, John	Viant, S. P.	Smith.
Sexton, James	Wallhead, Richard C.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 4, line 36, to leave out paragraph (d).

This Amendment must be taken in conjunction with paragraph (c) and with the Amendment in Clause 3, page 8, line 14, at the end, to insert a new Sub-section (5) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in any enactment or rule of law relating to the jurisdiction of County Courts, the County Court of the district in which a dwelling is situate may, on the application of the local authority—

1. (a) whether or not any other relief is claimed, grant an injunction restraining the breach, or apprehended breach, of any condition applying to the dwelling by virtue of this Section other than the condition imposed by paragraph (c) of Sub-section (1) of this Section; or
2. (b) make an Order directing payment to the authority of any sum which has become payable to it by reason of the breach of any condition applying to the dwelling by virtue of this Section.

These two Amendments are put down in order to carry out a promise that was made by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary whilst the Bill was 1.o. Committee. For the benefit of those who were not on the Committee, I may explain that paragraph (c) deals with what is to be done in the event of a breach of the conditions under the Bill, in, which case any sums paid on account of a grant are to be repaid, together with compound interest upon them, Paragraph (d) provides that the liability of the owner shall be made a charge upon the house. What we are now proposing

to do by the two Amendments of which this is the first, is, that we adopt another procedure and give an opportunity to the local authority to go to the County Court and there obtain an injunction in respect of a breach of condition. We think that is a much better way of achieving our object, because our object is not to get back the money which has been paid, but to prevent the conditions which are imposed from being broken. By the later Amendment we preserve the possibility of getting the money from the individual who is liable in case the breach is not ended.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I must confess that I am not satisfied that the Minister by this Amendment is not weakening the claim which he has on the property. As I understand paragraph (d) he has the property as a mortgage for any sums that become payable or repayable. He proposes to drop that and to substitute for it a scheme whereby he will pursue the owner in the County Court for any liability incurred. We are opposed to this weakening of the security that the local authority and the State have upon their money, and we are opposed to these attempts to make it as easy as possible for the owner to get out of his liability.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 96; Noes, 239.

Division No. 535.]	AYES.	[6.54 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Barnes, A,	Cape, Thomas
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Barr, J	Charleton, H, C.
Ammon, Charles George	Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Clowes, S.
Attlee, Clement Richard	Bondfield, Margaret	Cluse, W. S.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Bromfield, William	Connolly, M.
Baker, Walter	Bromley, J.	Cove, W. G.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Dalton, Hugh
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Kelly, W. T.	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Kennedy, T.	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Day. Colonel Harry	Lawrence, Susan	Stamford, T. W.
Dennison, R.	Lawson, John James	Stephen, Campbell
Duncan, C.	Lee, F.	Taylor, R. A.
Dunnico, H.	Livingstone, A. M.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Darby)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Lowth, T.	Thome, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Gardner, J. P.	Lunn, William	Thurtle, Ernest
Gillett. George M.	MacDonald, Rt. Hon.J, R.(Aberavon)	) Townend, A. E.
Gosling, Harry	March, S.	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Greenall, T.	Montague, Frederick	Viant, S. P.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Wallhead, Richard C.
Greenall, D, R. (Glamorgan)	Naylor, T. E.	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Oliver, George Harold	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Groves, T.	Paling, W.	Welsh, J. C.
Grundy, T. W.	Ponsonby, Arthur	Wheatley, Ht. Hon. J.
Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)	Potts, John S.	Whiteley, W.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Purcell, A. A.	Williams, T. (York. Don Valley)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hardie, George D.	Riley, Ben	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Harris, Percy A,	Rose, Frank H.	Wright, W.
Hayes, John Henry	Scurr, John	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hirst, G. H.	Sexton, James
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Slesser, Sir Henry H.	Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
John, William (Rhondda. West)	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)	Charles Edwards.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
NOES.
Albery, Irving James	Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Dixey, A. C.	Huntingfield, Lord
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Drewe, C.	Hurd, Percy A.
Apsley, Lord	Duckworth, John	Hurst, Gerald B.
Ashley, U.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Eden, Captain Anthony	Hutchison,G.A.Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Atkinson, C.	Elveden, Viscount	Jackson, sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Jacob, A. E.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M	Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth	James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.	Everard, W. Lindsay	Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Falls, Sir Bertram G.	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.	Fanshawe, Commander G. D.	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Bennett, A. J.	Fenby, T. D.	King, Captain Henry Douglas
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-	Fielden, E. B.	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Berry, Sir George	Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Knox, Sir Alfred
Bethel, A.	Forrest, W.	Little, Dr. E. Graham
Betterton, Henry B.	Foster, Sir Harry S.	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Boothby, R. J. G.	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Loder. J. de V.
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.	Fraser, Captain Ian	Looker, Herbert William
Brass, Captain W.	Frece, Sir Walter de	Lord, Walter Greaves
Briant, Frank	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Briggs, J. Harold	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Ganzoni, Sir John	MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Gates, Percy	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Brown, Col. D.C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Gilmour, Lt-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Goff, Sir Park	McLean. Major A.
Buckingham, Sir H.	Gower, Sir Robert	Macmillan, Captain H.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Grant, Sir J. A.	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Bullock, Captain M.	Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Burman, J. B.	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Macquisten, F. A.
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John	Mac Robert, Alexander M.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Grotrian, H. Brent	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Cautley, Sir Henry s.	Gunston, Captain D. W.	Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Malone, Major P. B.
Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth.S.)	Hall, Capt. W. D'A, (Brecon & Rad.)	Margesson. Captain D.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Hammersley, S. S.	Meller, R. J.
Christie, J. A.	Harrison. G. J. C.	Meyer, Sir Frank
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Clayton, G. C.	Haslam, Henry C.	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Cope, Major William	Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)	Moore, Lieut-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr)
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.	Moore, Sir Newton J.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Hogg, Rt. Hon.Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.	Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy	Neville, Ft. J.
Crooke, J. Smedtey (Derltend)	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Curzon, Captain Viscount	Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)	Nuttall, Ellis
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh}	Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)	Oakley, T.
Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset,Yeovil)	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Davies, Dr. Vernon	Hume, Sir G. H.	Owen, Major G.

Penny, Frederick George	Savery, S. S.	Warrendcr, Sir Victor
Percy, Lard Eustace (Hastings)	Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Perring, Sir William George	Shepperson, E. W.	Watts, Dr. T.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)	Wells, S. R.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Asshcton	Skelton, A. N.	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Raine, W.	Slaney, Major P. Kenyon	Wiggins, William Martin
Ramsden, E.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine.c.)	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Rawson, Sir Cooper	Smithers, Waldron	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Rcid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)	Sprot, Sir Alexander	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Held. D. D. (County Down)	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden,E.)	Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)
Remnant, Sir James	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Rentoul, G. S.	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Streattelld, Captain S. R.	Wintorton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Rice, Sir Frederick	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)	Womersley, W. J.
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Tasker, Major R. Inigo	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Ropner, Major L.	Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)	Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A	Tinne, J. A.	Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Titchfield, Major the Marquees of	Worthing ton-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Rye, F. G.	Tryon. Rt. Hon. George Clement	Wragg, Herbert
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Sandeman, A. Stewart	Wallace, Captain D. E.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Sanderson, Sir Frank	Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)	Major Hennessy and Mr. F. C.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave O.	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.	Thomson.