HC Deb 20 April 1926 vol 194 cc1149-63
The CHAIRMAN

One series of Amendments on the Second Schedule is, I understand, to keep the rates of the contributions as they are at present, and another is to increase them which, of course, would be out of Order as it would increase the charge. As regards the first Amendment, if the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) agrees to move to insert 7d. instead of 7½d., he can do so. I think that as this is part of a series, the, whole series of Amendments could be discussed on the first Amendment.

Mr. KELLY

I beg to move, in page 16, line 29, to leave out "6d." and insert "7d"

I move this because it is difficult to understand the mind of the Government which, at this time of day, attempt to draw out of the bargain they made with the people who are insured in this country. When the Insurance Acts were before us there was an understanding that the State would subscribe a portion to the Fund for the purpose of paying unemployment benefit, and now, when unemployment is severe and many of the industries are struggling against the conditions around them, we find one of the parties, and that party the strongest, drawing away from its bargain, endeavouring to run away from the contribution it had to pay to the Fund. Seeing that the Government ask those who are unduly low-paid in many of the industries, to continue to pay their portion to the Insurance Fund, the Government should have the decency, at least, to stand to their share of the bargain. Instead of running away from their responsibility, one would expect them to pay a larger amount into this Fund. In the White Paper, the Government say that if they can assure themselves of this reduced payment they will save something between£3.000,000 and£5,000,000 a year.

I do not know whether they feel justified in using the word "saving" in connection with it. I look upon it as robbery of the unemployed, for the Government to attempt to keep this£3,000,000 at a time when the Fund is needed. Of course, we shall be told that provision is made for the deficiency period, but all this is holding up the time when this deficiency will be paid off, and it looks as though the Government have little or no regard for those people who are out of work, through no fault of their own, and that the Government are not prepared to spend their share to help the unemployed through this serious time. Only the other week the Chancellor was fighting for the handing over of a grant of£5,000,000 to Northern Ireland for the purpose of unemployment insurance; yet now he comes to us to-day and suggests that in this Economy Bill 6d. should be paid in instead of the 8d. which is allowed for under the Unemployment Insurance Act. These proposals are unjust and unfair to the unemployed. I ask the Committee to vote for this Amendment in fairness to the people of the country, and not to look upon the Unemployment Fund as one which can be raided without regard to the injustice which is done to these people.

Mr. HAYDAY

I cannot quite bring my mind to the alteration of the Amendment from 7½ to 7d., because the 1925 Act, providing as it does for the State contribution of 8d., would have brought the 7½d. well within the limits under that Act, and could in no way represent an increased charge. I take it, it might still have been in order.

The CHAIRMAN

I think not, because Part 2 of the Second Schedule of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1925, as I read it, continues the contribution at the rate of 7d during such time as the extended period continues after the 1st January, 1928.

Mr. HAYDAY

I accept the correction in that sense, but in my own mind I have some doubt, because I understood it was to be 8d. up to the termination of the deficiency period. But be that as it may, I now support the Amendment that 7d. should take the place of 6d. One ought to offer this final word of protest at the inability of the Government to make any concession, and particularly in relation to this Fund. Had the State continued to pay its fair proportion the deficiency period would very soon have elapsed, and then you could have taken in hand a general review of the contributions from the State and the insured persons. This matter is of such grave concern to many who are suffering to-day that a protest ought to be made before we pass this Bill. I want the country to realise that, in addition to the many millions in excess that employer and workman have contributed in proportion to the State's contribution, the trade union movement of this country has spent more than£9,000,000 of its funds in unemployment donation to its distressed members since. 1920. Yet the State comes along at the time of their distress and says, "We are going now to withhold a proportion of our grant to this Fund."

I urge hon. Members opposite in particular not to sacrifice the principle of rendering adequate assistance to the unemployed, but to vote with us for arriving at a stage when the State's contribution shall be something more than the proposals of this Bill. As a final and emphatic protest, I want, as strongly as I can, to say that this is an attack upon the most helpless of our citizens who have gone through five years of real hardship, whose physical and mental powers have been undermined, and yet the Government come along and say: "Notwithstanding your request for aid, we must satisfy the demands of our Chancellor of the Exchequer." I am sure that the Minister of Labour and the Parliamentary Secretary are not throwing themselves into this proposal with any light heart. I feel sure that the proposal is against the grain, inasmuch as they know the circumstances.

Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON

I wish to join in the protest against this raid on the Unemployment Fund. Of all the deplorable raids made by the Government, this is the most deplorable. When there are over a million unemployed, to make this reduction in the State contribution is really adding insult to injury. The Parliamentary Secretary may tell us that this does not reduce the amount of unemployment benefit paid under the Act. That may be true, but it is also true that it defers the ending of the deficiency period. When the deficiency period comes to an end there is to be a re-adjustment of the rates paid by employer and employed. Therefore, the Government are extending the period during which industry is burdened by these heavy charges. At a time like the present, when the recovery of trade gives some hope of ending unemployment, we want to do all that we can to reduce the charges which are crippling industry. The taking of this£5,000,000 is a very serious blow to the Unemployment Fund, and I hope that if the Minister cannot accept the Amendment now, he will see that it is inserted in another place.

Mr. BETTERTON

I do not want to take up the time of the Committee, because the arguments which have been addressed to us are the arguments which were used when we were discussing Clause 8, and they really go to the root of the proposals made it, the Bill. The Amendment would have been out of order, for the reasons Which the Chairman stated, had it been moved as it appeared on the Paper, to insert 7½d., because under the Act of 1925 the amount payable in respect of a man after January, 1928, is 7d., and not 7½d.

Mr. BATEY

Then how do you explain the White Paper which says that under the Act of 1925 it would during 1926 and 1927 have been£15,900,000, taking the interim rate?

Mr. BETTERTON

Really that has nothing to do with the point which I was trying to make. I was showing that, had the Amendment been moved as printed on the Paper, it would have been out of order because, during part of the extended period, it would have exceeded the amount laid down in the Act of 1925, that amount for the second part of the period being 7d.

Mr. BATEY

But during the first part of 1925 is it not to be at the rate of 8d.?

BETTERTON

Yes, 8d. up to January, 1928. The White Paper states that it is estimated that the income to the Fund, with the Exchequer contribution as proposed in the Bill, will be sufficient to meet expenditure with a live register of 1,030,000. The Amendment as originally drawn would have meant an

increase in the State contribution of£2,040,000. The Amendment as moved would represent a total of£1,136,000. At this stage, after the discussion that we have already had, I am sure that the Committee will not expect me to accept an Amendment which would have the result of reducing the£3,740,000 the amount which would be saved in the State contribution, by a sum of no less than£1,136,000.

Question put, "That '6d.' stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 266; Noes, 137.

Division No. 183.] AYES. [9.55 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Crookshank. Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Albery, Irving James Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Curzon, Captain Viscount Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Dalkeith, Earl of Hennessy, Major J. R G.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Herbert. S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)
Apsley, Lord Davies, Dr. Vernon Hills, Major John Waller
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Hilton. Cecil
Astor, Viscountess Davies. Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Atkinson, C. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Dawson, Sir Philip Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Dixey, A. C. Holland, Sir Arthur
Balniel, Lord Drewe, C. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Eden, Captain Anthony Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Edmondson, Major A. J. Hopkins, J. W. W.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Ellis, R. G. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Elveden, Viscount Howard, Captain Hon. Donald
Bennett, A. J. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Bethel, A. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)
Betterton, Henry B. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Hume, Sir G. H.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Everard, W. Lindsay Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Blades, Sir George Rowland Fairfax, Captain J. G. Hurd, Percy A.
Brass, Captain W. Faile, Sir Bertram G. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Fermoy, Lord Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S.
Briggs, J. Harold Fielden, E. B. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Briscoe, Richard George Finburgh, S. Jacob, A. E.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Ford, Sir P. J James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Foster, Sir Harry S Jephcott, A. R
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) Frece, Sir Walter de Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Buckingham, Sir H. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. King, Captain Henry Douglas
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Burman, J. B. Galbraith. J. F. W. Knox, Sir Alfred
Burton, Colonel H. W. Ganzoni, Sir John Lamb, J Q.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Gates, Percy Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Campbell, E. T. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) Grant, J. A. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Loder, J. de V.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Greene, W. P. Crawford Looker, Herbert William
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Grotrian, H. Brent Lord, Walter Greaves-
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Chapman, Sir S. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Luce. Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Christie, J. A. Gunston, Captain D. W. Lynn, Sir R. J.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Clarry, Reginald George Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Clayton, G. C. Hammersley, S. S. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Cobb, Sir Cyril Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Macintyre, Ian
Conway Sir W. Martin Harland, A. McLean, Major A.
Cope, Major William Harmsworth. Hon. E. C. (Kent) Macmillan, Captain H.
Couper, J. B. Harrison, G. J. C. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Courtauld, Major J. S. Hartington, Marquess of MacRobert, Alexander M.
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Harvey, G (Lambeth, Kennington) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Haslam, Henry C. Margesson, Captain D.
Crocke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hawke, John Anthony Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Tinne, J. A.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Rye, F. G. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Salmon, Major I. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Moore, Sir Newton J. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Waddington, R.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Morden, Colonel Walter Grant Sandeman, A. Stewart Warner, Brigadier-General W. W
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Murchison, C. K. Savery, S. S. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Neville, R. J. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Watts, Dr. T.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Wells, S. R.
Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Nuttall, Ellis Shepperson, E. W. White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Oman, Sir Charles William C. Skelton, A. N. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Perkins, Colonel E. K. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Perring, Sir William George Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Sprot, Sir Alexander Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.) Wise, Sir Fredric
Pielou, D. P. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Withers, John James
Plicher, G. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Wolmer. Viscount
Preston, William Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Womersley, W. J.
Price, Major C. W. M. Strickland, Sir Gerald Wood, E. (Chest', Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Radford, E. A. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Raine, W. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Wood, Sir S. Hill (High Peak)
Ramsden, E. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wragg, Herbert
Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Rice, Sir Frederick Templeton, W. P. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Mr. F C. Thomson and Captain Bowyer.
Ropner, Major L. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Harris, Percy A. Sexton, James
Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Ammon, Charles George Hayday, Arthur Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Attlee, Clement Richard Hayes, John Henry Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Barnes, A. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Sitch, Charles H.
Barr, J. Henderson. T. (Glasgow) Slesser. Sir Henry H.
Batey, Joseph Hirst, G. H. Smillie, Robert
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Briant, Frank Hore-Belisha, Leslie Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Broad, F. A. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Bromley, J. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Spoor, Rt. Hon Benjamin Charles
Buchanan, G. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Stamford, T. W.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Stephen, Campbell
Cape, Thomas Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Stewart. J. (St. Rollox)
Charleton, H. C. Kelly, W. T. Sullivan. Joseph
Clowes, S. Kennedy, T. Sutton, J. E.
Cluse, W. S. Kirkwood, D Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lee, F. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Lindley, F. W. Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)
Connolly, M. Livingstone, A. M. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Cove, W. G. Lowth, T. Thurtle, E.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lunn, William Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Townend. A. E.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Trevelyan. Rt. Hon. C. P.
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Mackinder, W. Varley, Frank B.
Dennison, R. MacNeill-Weir, L, Viant, S. P.
Duckworth, John March, S. Wallhead, Richard C.
Duncan, C. Montague, Frederick Watson. W. W. (Dunfermilne)
England, Colonel A. Morris, R. H. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Fenby, T. D. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham. N.) Webb. Rt. Hon. Sidney
Forrest, W. Murnin, H. Westwood. J
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Naylor, T. E. Whiteley. W.
Gillett, George M. Oliver, George Harold Wiggins. William Martin
Gosling, Harry Owen, Major G. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh. Wrexham)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Palin, John Henry Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Paling, W. Williams, Dr. H. (Llanelly)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Williams. T. (York, Don Valley)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Ponsonby, Arthur Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Groves, T. Potts, John S. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Grundy, T. W. Rees, Sir Beddoe Windsor. Walter
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wright, W.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Riley, Ben Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Ritson, J.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Rose, Frank H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Saklatvala, Shapurji Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Warne.
Harney, E. A. Scrymgeour, E.

Question proposed, "That this he the Second Schedule to the Bill."

Mr. SNOWDEN

When the Financial Resolution was under consideration I raised a point when Mr. Hope was in the Chair that this. Resolution, if incorporated in the Bill, would be outside the Title of the Bill, Mr. Hope was unable to give a ruling at that time, but he suggested that I might raise it when this Schedule came before the Committee, and I therefore do so now. May I call your attention, Captain FitzRoy, to the Title of the Bill. It is A Bill to make provision for reducing in respect of certain services the charges on public funds and for increasing by means of the payment into the Exchequer of certain sums and otherwise, the funds available for meeting such charges, etc. There is nothing at all in the Title of the Bill which permits any increase of Exchequer contributions. The Financial Resolution which was reported to the House to-day says, That…it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of a contribution under the Acts.… In submitting this Financial Resolution to the House, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour said: The point is a very short one but it is rather a technical one. It deals, as far as, the amount is concerned, with no more than£28,000 a year after January, 1928. He then goes on: The Resolution is necessary because the Bill, as it is drafted, may involve a charge on the Exchequer in respect of exempted persons should it prove to he the case that the extended period does not come to an end by the 1st January, 1928.'' Later on he said: It is necessary to get this Financial Resolution in order to provide for a possible further charge on the Exchequer after January, 1928, for the whole of the extended period to cover the difference between the higher and the lower rates."—[Official Report, 19th April, 1925; Vol. 194. cols. 869–70.] Therefore, I submit that under the Title of this Bill it is not competent to include in the Bill any proposal which involves an increased charge on the Exchequer, and that certainly would be the case if the Clause and the Second Schedule stand in the Bill.

Mr. BETTERTON

In answer to the very ingenious point of the right hon. Gentleman may I submit to you, Captain FitzRoy, that there are two or three reasons which are quite conclusive. The right hon. Gentleman said the other night., and he said to-day, that there is nothing whatever in the Title of the Bill which would permit a proposal to be included for Increasing the contribution from the Exchequer. The first answer to that is this, that, taken, as you are bound to take these contributions, in the aggregate, that is, in the bulk, there is not an increase, hut a very large reduction in the amount, and it has always been, not merely contemplated by this legislation, but it was laid down in the Act of 1925, that the Government contribution is a single amount arid not several separate amounts. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at Section 4 of the Act of 1925, which describes and prescribes the method by which this is to be arrived at, he will see that it is clear that the amount is an aggregate amount and not a succession or collection of successive small amounts. That is the first answer, which I think is conclusive. The second answer is this, that exactly the same thing occurred, and, indeed, it is entirely on all fours, in a former Clause of the Bill with which I was not personally concerned, namely, Clause 5. That involves an additional charge on the public funds, and could only be justified on the one ground I have just stated, if the contention of the right hon. Gentleman is right. The third reason is this, that if the right hon. Gentleman desired to raise the point that the part of this Schedule relating to exempt persons is outside the long title of the Bill he should have taken it up before and, according to the Rules of the House, on Second Reading of the Bill. If he will look at the Manual of Procedure he will find on page 144 the following statement: The contents of a Bill must not go beyond the description given of the Bill in its title at the time of its introduction, wit any objection on this ground should be Taken before the Bill is read a Second time. Now, for these reasons, each one of which, I submit, is conclusive by itself, which in the aggregate are quite overwhelming, I submit that the right hon. Gentleman's point is without substance. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]

Mr. J. H. THOMAS

I am quite sure there must be judging by the cheers from hon. Members opposite at the statement we have just heard, considerable satisfaction among them at the way in which the hon. Gentleman has answered this point, but for the benefit of those who were not here when this matter was raised yesterday I first desire to draw their attention to this fact, that the difficulty created is due to the decision of the Government not to have a Report stage. Hon. Members will know that there was on the Order Paper two days ago a number of Amendments in the name of the Government's own supporters including the Home Secretary. In order to get over a Report stage it was arranged by the Government that those Amendments should be inserted in another place. This Amendment which necessitates a financial resolution could not be inserted there because of its financial bearing. That is why my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) would have been met—and I am now dealing with the last point raised—if he had raised this matter on the Second Reading, by the argument right away that this was a matter that would have been corrected on the Report stage. That would have been the answer he would obviously have got and that is

why he could not possibly raise it. I do submit that the point he has raised is certainly a legitimate and strong one and, as indeed the Financial Resolution introduced by the right hon. Gentleman opposite all goes to show this difficulty was created absolutely and definitely by the Government itself because of its determination not to give the House an opportunity of a Report stage.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain FitzRoy)

With regard to this rather technical point which has been raised, I would point out that a similar occasion arose on Clause 5, and this question, if it was going to be raised, ought to have been raised at that particular time. With regard to this being outside the Title of the Bill, it appears to me quite conclusive that, although this is a Bill for reducing in respect of certain services the charges on public funds, this particular expense is entirely within the Title of the Bill, because it is incidental to those purposes.

Question put, "That this be the Second Schedule to the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 266; Noes, 138.

Division No. 184.] AYES. [10.15 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Fairfax, Captain J, G.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cecil. Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Faile, Sir Bertram G.
Albery, Irving James Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Fermoy, Lord
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N, (Ladywood) Fielden, E. B.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool.W. Derby) Chapman, Sir S. Finburgh, S.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Christie, J. A. Ford, Sir P. J.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Foster, Sir Hairy S.
Apsley, Lord Clarry, Reginald George Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Clayton, G. C. Fremantle, Lieut-Colonel Francis E.
Astor, Viscountess Cobb, Sir Cyril Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Atkinson, C. Conway, Sir W. Martin Galbraith, J. F. W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Cope, Major William Ganzoni, Sir John.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Couper, J. B. Gates, Percy
Balniel, Lord Courtauld, Major J. S. Gault, Lieut.-Cal. Andrew Hamilton
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Courthope, Lieut-Col. Sir George L. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Crott, Brigadier-General Sir H. Grant, J. A.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Bennett, A. J. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Greene, W. P. Crawford
Bethel, A. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Grotrian, H. Brent
Betterton, Henry B. Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Curzon, Captain Viscount Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Dalkeith, Earl of Gunston, Captain D. W.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Hacking. Captain Douglas H.
Brass, Captain W. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Davies, Dr. Vernon Hammersley, S. S.
Briggs, J. Harold Davies, Maj. Geo, F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Briscoe, Richard George Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Harland, A.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Dawson, Sir Philip Harrison, G. J. C.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Dixey, A. C. Hartington, Marquess of
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Drewe, C. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Buckingham, Sir H. Eden, Captain Anthony Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Edmondson, Major A. J. Haslam, Henry C.
Burman, J. B. Ellis, R. G. Hawke, John Anthony
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Elveden, Viscount Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Henderson. Cap R. R, (Oxf'd, Henley)
Campbell, E. T. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Everard, W. Lindsay Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Slaney, Major P, Kenyon
Herbert, S. (York, N. R, Scar. & Wh'by) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Hills, Major John Waller Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Hilton, Cecil Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Sprot, Sir Alexander
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon B. M. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Holland, Sir Arthur Moore, Sir Newton J. Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Morden, Col. w. Grant Strickland, Sir Gerald
Hopkins, J. W W Moreing, Captain A. H. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Murchison. C. K. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Neville, R. J. Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Hume, Sir G. H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Templeton, W. P.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Ayfmer Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Hurd, Percy A. Nuttall, Ellis Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Tinne, J. A.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Jacob, A. E. Perring, Sir William George Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon Cuthbert Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Waddington, R.
Jephcott, A. R. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Pielou, D. P, Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Kindersley, Major G. M. Preston, William Waterhouse, Captain Charles
King, Captain Henry Douglas Price, Major C. W. M. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Radford, E. A. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Knox, Sir Alfred Raine, W. Watts, Dr. T.
Lamb, J. Q. Ramsden, E. Wells, S. R.
Lane Fox, Col Rt. Hon, George R. Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Rice, Sir Frederick Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) Ropner, Major L. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Loder, J. de V. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Looker, Herbert William Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Lord, Walter Greaves- Rye, F. G. Wise, Sir Fredric
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Salmon, Major I. Withers, John James
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Wolmer, Viscount
Lynn, Sir R, J. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Womersley, W. J.
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Sandeman, A. Stewart Wood. E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)
MacIntyre, Ian Savery, S. S. Wragg, Herbert
McLean, Major A. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Macmillan, Captain H. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Sheffield, Sir Berkeley TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
MacRobert, Alexander M. Shepperson, E. W. Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Margesson.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Skelton, A. N.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Forrest, W. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Garre-Jones, Captain G. M. Kelly, W. T.
Amnion, Charles George Gillett, George M. Kennedy, T.
Attlee, Clement Richard Gosling, Harry Kirkwood, D.
Barnes, A. Graham, D, M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Lee, F.
Barr, J. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Lindley, F. W.
Batey, Joseph Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Livingstone, A. M.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lowth, T.
Briant, Frank Griffiths, T. (Monmouth. Pontypool) Lunn. William
Broad, F. A. Groves, T. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)
Bromley, J. Grundy, T. W. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Mackinder, w.
Buchanan, G. Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) MacNeill-Weir, L.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Hall, F. (York, W. R.. Normanton) March, S.
Cape, Thomas Hall. G. H. (Merihyr Tydvil) Montague, Frederick
Charleton, H. C. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Morris, R. H.
Clowes, S. Harney, E. A. Morrison, R, C. (Tottenham, N.)
Cluse, W. S. Karris, Percy A. Murnin, H.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Naylor, T. E.
Collins, sir Godfrey (Greenock) Hayday, Arthur Oliver, George Harold
Connolly, M. Hayes, John Henry Owen, Major G.
Cove, W. G. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Palin, John Henry
Cowan, D. M, (Scottish Universities) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Paling, W.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Hirst, G. H. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Ponsonby, Arthur
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Potts, John S.
Dennison, R, Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Rees, Sir Beddoe
Duckworth, John Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Duncan, C. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Riley, Ben
England, Colonel A. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Ritson, J.
Fenby, T, D. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Rose, Frank H.
Saklatvala, Shapurji Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Scrymgeour, E. Sutton, J. E. Westwood, J.
Sexton, James Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Whiteley, W.
Shiels Dr. Drummond Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Wiggins, William Martin
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Sitch, Charles H. Thurtle, E. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Slesser, Sir Henry H. Tinker, John Joseph Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Smillie, Robert Townend, A. E. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Wilson, R. J. (Jartow)
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Varley, Frank B. Windsor, Walter
Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Viant, S. P. Wright, W.
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Wallhead, Richard C. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Spoor, Rt. Hon, Benjamin Charles Walsh, Rt. Hon, Stephen
Stamford, T. W, Watson, W M (Dunfermline) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Stephen, Campbell Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Warne