§ Mr. R. RICHARDSONI beg to move, in page 10, line 3, after the word "any" to insert the word "new."
4.0 P.M.
This Clause, as the Minister has put it before the Committee, is based on the assumption that there are doubts to be removed. The object of this Amendment is to render as small as possible any doubt that may exist in the minds of those who will have to put this Clause into operation. There can be no doubt as to who are the people who are entrusted with the duty of looking after education. There is no doubt as to whose job it is to provide proper accommodation. It is the work of the local education authorities, and, apparently, by this Bill the Minister proposes to put restrictions in their way in doing their work. You cannot interfere with teachers' salaries and you cannot interfere with the number of pupils that a teacher may teach, and really it comes to what I call education proper that these restrictions are to apply. In other words, it is the child who is going to suffer under the restrictions which the Minister proposes. Yesterday, the Minister spoke of the large number of new schools which it was proposed to build, but, if new schools are not to be built, then the existing schools must of necessity be put into a state of repair fit for the children to attend them. According to the report of the Minister's own inspectors, there are schools in the county of Durham which the local education authority have asked should be put right long ago, and which in many cases should be replaced by new schools. May I urge that nothing should be done to prevent them going on with the work? 1049 [interruption.] Of course, hon. Gentlemen can afford to sneer at the children. They cannot speak here for themselves. As I have said before, it is only cowards who sneer at people who cannot help themselves; a man of soul would not do it.
I would urge that no further restrictions should be imposed upon local authorities. There is no necessity for them. I would ask the Minister if he knows of any case in his own constituency where work has been done which he himself would veto. I venture to say that he would never say that any work has been done of a character that was not desirable. If that be so, is there any necessity for any further restriction I But this Clause would never have been placed in this Economy Bill if some restrictions were not intended. There would have been no necessity for it. If the right hon.. Gentleman merely wants to remove any doubt as to what the Act means, why does he not bring in an amending Bill to settle those doubt? Not only has he at present power to veto anything that is outside the Act, but he has power to veto anything that is inside the Act, and, if a dispute arises under the Act, not only is he one of the parties to the dispute, but he has the power to settle it in his own way. I do mot know what further power he requires in the matter, and I do urge the Committee to support the Amendment, because, after all, the work of the local education authorities to-day is very much in arrear owing to the Geddes axe and other things, and the men who have given their time to the work and who have received more kicks than praise are asking the House of Commons to sanction what they can do in the interests of the children of this country.
§ Mr. COVEI feel obliged to say one or two things. First, I want to say, quite clearly and definitely, that our Amendment to insert this word "new" does not mean that we, as the Labour party, are committed to the principles and policy embodied in Clause 14. We only seek now to insert this word "new," because we have learned during the discussions upon this Bill that the Government are using their docile majority to force the Measure through without any Amendment at all. We want to make it perfectly clear that this is a sort of forlorn 1050 Amendment so far as the principles embodied in the Clause are concerned, and that we desire to limit the application of these principles to future expenditure. The President of the Board of Education has indicated in his Circular to local authorities, following Memorandum 44, that he is not yet satisfied with the reductions that have been made. He says that the authorities have sincerely reviewed their estimates and that expenditure has been cut down, but that there are still items of expenditure which might be cut down and there are still authorities who have not obeyed the instructions or the implications involved in Circular 1371 and Memorandum 44. We want to be perfectly certain that Memorandum 44 and the statement of policy following that Memorandum completely wipes out any cutting down of the estimates which have been drawn up under the inspiration and guidance of Memorandum 44. In short, we want to be perfectly clear that there is to be no retrospective action so far as this Clause is concerned.
The authorities are already in great uncertainty as to what they are going to receive. This authority is afraid to embark on new ventures in education and that authority is afraid to increase its staffing, and we would like a clear statement from the Noble Lord as to what are his intentions with regard to the estimates he has already received. My right hon. Friend the Member for Central Newcastle (Mr. Trevelyan) pressed him last night to tell us the estimates of the authorities with which he is not yet satisfied. Will he give us a list of those authorities? Will he tell us what he is going to do with them? Will ho tell this Committee and the authorities that the estimates which he has received at the Board of Education will be accepted by him and that the policy and the principles involved in Clause 14 will not be applied to those estimates which have already been drawn up, but that, if they are to be applied at all, they will be applied to some future estimates that will be drawn up after he has had consultation with the authorities? It is a very grave charge to level at the Noble Lord that he is taking this action in spite of the fact that he has asked the local authorities to come into consultation with him. What purpose is there in the local authorities conferring with him if he is to take this high- 1051 handed attitude not only towards future expenditure, because, so far as I understand the power this Clause will confer upon him, that high-handed attitude might quite easily be applied to expenditure and estimates to which the authorities have already committed themselves. I ask the Noble Lord in fairness to this Committee and in fairness to the local authorities to let us have a, clear, simple straightforward statement in order that this Committee may know where it stands and where the local authorities stand so far as the Grant-in-Aid is concerned.
§ Mr. ERNEST EVANSWhen I first saw this Amendment, I did not feel in any degree enamoured of it, and my first inclination certainly was to oppose it, but the explanation which has been just given by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Cove) is, I think, an expression of a legitimate action on the part of an Opposition which, so far from agreeing with this Clause in any degree whatever, is anxious to avail itself of every opportunity of pointing out its defects. There is, however, one point which may be urged with considerable force even in support of the Amendment as it stands. The Noble Lord, in the course of some very excellent speeches, made a very eloquent appeal to local education authorities to prepare their programmes of a progressive character extending over a large number of years. It is only fair to the local education authorities to say that many of them, acting under considerable difficulties, responded to his appeal. I would like to ask the Noble Lord how many local education authorities responded to his appeal, and how many of those authorities who responded are going to be disappointed by any subsequent action? There is no doubt that in many districts in this country the education authorities, partly out of their own desire to promote the cause of education and partly in response to the right hon. Gentleman's eloquence, did prepare programmes of a progressive character. How many of those authorities are going to be stultified by reason of the new action of the Board of Education, by reason of the Circular to which reference has been made, and by reason of this Clause which really is the culmination of the policy incorporated in that Circular?
1052 This Clause, it seems to me, does provide a way out by which the Noble Lord can fulfil the expectations which he himself has created. Whatever may be the case in the future—and I object to this discretion for which the Minister is asking —let the Noble Lord say, in regard to programmes that were put forward in response to his appeal, he will undertake that not one of them shall be curtailed by reason of the new policy which the Board has now undertaken. I think it is only fair to ask that, because the Prime Minister has made speeches—even the Chancellor of the Exchequer did—and a manifesto was issued on behalf of the Conservative party before the election declaring that education was one of the matters in which we really could not afford to economise in so far as economy would injure the cause of education in this country.
Therefore, when the authorities act upon all those pledges and promises, it is only fair that their disappointment shall not be accentuated by the introduction of a Clause of this character. I know very well that the Noble Lord has claimed credit—and I hope he will believe me when I say I do not wish at all to minimise the credit which he takes to himself—that the Estimates for this year are larger than they were last year; but the whole point is that the Estimates for which he now claims credit are not sufficiently large to enable local education authorities to carry out programmes which they prepared under the inspiration of his own eloquence. Therefore, it seems to me the Noble Lord, in fairness to those local authorities which have responded to his appeal, ought to undertake—whatever may be the power for which he is asking in respect of new expenditure—to fulfil in the letter and in the spirit the promises and the expectations which he held out to local education authorities, and upon which they have acted.
§ The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Lord Eustace Percy)The hon. Member who spoke last said that he wanted an assurance from me that I would not cut down any programme which I had asked local authorities to submit, and he said that these estimates for the current year were not sufficient to cover those programmes which I have asked local authorities to submit. He 1053 has forgotten that those programmes are programmes expenditure on which will fall due as from 1st April, 1927, onwards, and, therefore, this Amendment will not apply to anything in those programmes. If this Amendment were passed, I should still be free to stop any programme, to stop any expenditure, I may point out to the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Cove), even in this current year which has not yet been incurred. I should be at liberty to stop all this, and all the rebuilding of unsatisfactory schools in Durham, but I should not be at liberty to question the expenditure of any authority on its general level of expenditure in the past.
§ Lord E. PERCYThat is the position as it will he left with this Amendment. There is no doubt whatever that the Board has always in the past exercised the power of disallowing existing expenditure. Let me remind the Committee again, that when the original Burnham scales were brought into operation, the Board disallowed the expenditure of the authorities in excess of those scales, not because those authorities had not been paying salaries in excess of those scales before, not because that was not existing expenditure, but because it was in excess of a general standard agreed and laid down. Therefore, the Board has always had power to disallow existing expenditure, and I clearly cannot accept an Amendment which would take away from the Board powers which every President of the Board has exercised in the past.
§ Mr. R. RICHARDSONDoes the right hon. Gentleman mean that we have to base the expenditure in Durham upon the rate in Northumberland? As the right hon. Gentleman knows, in Northumberland they get twice as much for a shilling compared with the number to educate, as in Durham. Does he mean to cut all down to a standard?
§ Lord E. PERCYThat really arises on a subsequent Amendment. I will answer the question when we come to that Amendment. Then, I cannot accept this Amendment for the reason I indicated to the Committee in my concluding words last night. The real character of the present position is the vast commit- 1054 meats of capital expenditure which face local authorities in the future, and to propose that I should have full powers as I have at the present moment to stop local authorities making improvements involving new expenditure, but that I should have no power to question the level of expenditure of an authority which has been spending high in the past, that I should have no power to question and discuss with it whether it was necessary expenditure or not, whether it was not attracting grant from me which ought to go to authorities which have large commitments in the matter of education —to suggest that is to misconceive the whole position, and the whole problem of educational reform. Therefore, I cannot accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. J. JONESListening to the Noble Lord in defence of a policy in which he does not believe is almost like listening to "Alice in Wonderland." Those of us who have been members of education committees for a considerable number of years recognise quite frankly what the difficulties are. The right hon. Gentleman is "holding the baby" in this connection. I represent a district which has done its best to try to educate the children to the best of their advantage. The Noble Lord realises that, I think, as far as the West Ham Education Authority is concerned. We started a new line in educational development—the feeding of children. We are limited to a halfpenny rate; but, we have gone beyond it, and we are prepared to face the risks. In addition, we have started what might be called an open-air recovery school. The Noble Lord's predecessor in the office he now occupies gave us permission to spend a considerable amount of money in developing the open-air recovery school.
We have taken the most delicate children in our schools into the country on an estate bought by the Education Committee for the purpose of trying to make them physically and mentally capable. The Board have not asked for powers under this Bill, but they have already told us we cannot go on. Is this a forerunner of the possible future? Are we to be told in the next two years that we cannot go any further in the matter of education? Then, what does the right hon. Gentleman mean by an average level of education? Does he mean that Slocum-on-the-Mud is going 1055 to be the level of education in London and outer London? Because we may have progressive ideas of education, we are going to be told, "Thus far shalt thou go, and no further." The average number of children in our classes is about 40; the average number of children in the classes at Eton and Harrow is 15. Supposing we decide as an education authority that the number of children in our classes shall be 15, will we be allowed to incur the necessary expenditure?
§ The CHAIRMANI think this would be more relevant on one of the later Amendments where we come to the
circumstances of the area of the authority or the general standard of expenditure in other areas.The only point now is whether the powers of the Board of Education shall not be extended to new expenditure.
§ Mr. JONESYes, but the power of the Noble Lord in the matter of administering education will be to cripple all expenditure beyond the present level of the lowest education authorities in the country. What is going to be the level? We have not yet been told what the basis shall be. Which authority is he going to take? We want to know if the progressive education authorities are going to be handicapped by the administration of this Clause. It is called an Economy Bill, and properly so. It is economy in education. I would like to know exactly where we stand. Already the Board have started to cut down. They are crippling certain local authorities who are wanting to advance. If we are paying half the expenditure, surely we are entitled to half the consideration. It is only 50–50 now.
§ Lord E. PERCYNot in West Ham.
§ The CHAIRMANI cannot help thinking these arguments could come later on. At the moment it is only a question whether new expenditure should be disallowed or not.
§ Mr. JONESOf course, I quite appreciate the fact that you know more about the Rules than I do. But new expenditure, after all, means expenditure on the education of the children. We are not going to stand still in educational 1056 development, and we object to any Minister having power to restrict that development. If we are paying half the expenditure, we are entitled at least to half the consideration, which we are not getting now. This Bill is going to allow the Minister to become a dictator in the matter of education, and we object to dictators either on that side or on this.
§ Mr. TREVELYANI should like to make quite clear what the attitude of the Opposition is in supporting this Amendment. We do not want to give the right hon. Gentleman any extra power at all, but if he is going to have new powers, we wish to limit those powers as far as we possibly can. We shall vote gainst the whole Clause, but it being understood that the Government are going to accept no Amendment, and are not going to renounce the Clause, we propose in this Amendment a limitation, which would deprive the right hon. Gentleman of a good deal of the harm we expect he might otherwise do.
§ Dr. DRUMMOND SHIELSI think the Committee will agree that the autocratic powers which the Minister himself has described are too much responsibility for any one man. The object of this Amendment, while it is not very clear, is, I understand, to limit that power to some extent. I am very anxious that new expenditure in one special direction should not be prevented from going on by the action of the Minister. I refer to an aspect of education which is not so much emphasised—I mean the physical side. I Have not heard in any of the right hon. Gentleman's speeches what his views are as regards the development of the medical service in connection with education. While all the speeches to which wt have listened on the technical subject of education have been very interesting and very important, I consider that the thing of first importance is the health of the child, and after that the education of the child. The medical services of the educational system, both in England and Scotland, are still very unsatisfactory. I wish to know what are the Minister's views in regard to additional expenditure, for instance, in regard to the feeding of necessitous children. It is very difficult from the Board's report on the school medical services to get details about 1057 the medical services. I would commend to the attention of the Noble Lord the Report of the Scottish Board of Health, which gives a very much more detailed and better description of the results of the examinations of school children.
What are the Minister's views in regard to new expenditure for the development, say, of the dental service We know that some authorities have given a good deal of attention to this subject, and have had very successful results—London, for instance, and some other large towns. Dental disease is being reduced to a very large extent owing to the activities at these centres. It is commonplace to say that many of the diseases from which children suffer arise from bad teeth. That is, more or less, widely recognised but while in the upper classes of society these things are attended to, it is equally desirable that the children of our poorer classes, whose parents are either ignorant or too ill off to afford dental treatment, should be taken in hand by the education authorities. The charges can be recovered where the parents are able to pay. I would draw attention also to the numerous cases of enlarged tonsils and adenoids in school children. It is not merely a physical matter, for the mental development of these children is kept back considerably when they are in this condition. Even from they educational point of view it is a very foolish policy to be spending money on expert teaching of children who are not in a. position to profit by it. One or two places have made a beginning with treatment centres, or made arrangements with hospitals, to attend to these physical defects, but there are many reactionary authorities by whom nothing has been done. I wish to know whether such authorities are stimulated to action in this connection, and urged to put forward a programme which may involve entirely new expenditure, and what the Minister's attitude is to them.
Enlarged tonsils and adenoids are very often a cause of rheumatic fever, and rheumatic fever is one of the most disabling of children's diseases. It involves a tremendous loss of school time, and the child arrives at the end of its school days badly educated, apart from the permanent physical damage 1058 which it has sustained otherwise. The Board's Report on the Medical Services in Education, with which I have no doubt the Noble Lord is familiar, definitely calls attention to the importance of these things. It acknowledges that the advance in the connection on previous years towards adequate services is very small indeed. It says, in regard to public elementary schools:
Three hundred and eight local education authorities made provision for treatment of minor ailments; 250 for dental defects.That is out of 318 authorities. We have actually 68 education authorities in England and Wales who are making no provision for dental treatment. In Scotland we have only five defaulters. Taken together, the figures represent a very large amount of neglect of this condition. There are 303 authorities giving treatment for visual defects, 234 for enlarged tonsils and adenoids, and 163 for ringworm, which is also a very time-wasting disease.
§ The CHAIRMANThat is a very interesting argument, but I ought to point out that by this Amendment the Minister would still have power to disallow authorities to incur any new expenditure. Therefore, it does not seem to me that the hon. Member is arguing in the sense of the Amendment.
§ Dr. SHIELSI understand that the Amendment is to restrict the Minister's power to disallow expenditure.
§ The CHAIRMANNo, it will allow power to disallow expenditure.
§ Dr. SHIELSMight I, at any rate, ask, Sir, if it permits him to allow or disallow new expenditure, what is his view in regard to the importance of the subject I am discussing? It is the only opportunity I have had to raise the question. However, if you rule that it is not in Order on this amendment I shall not pursue the matter further, in the meantime, but bring it up again on a more appropriate occasion.
§ The CHAIRMANIt would be more appropriate on the Education Estimates. The hon. Member's argument does not seem to be quite in consonance with the Amendment.
§ Mr. MORRISI do not understand the reason for the Amendment at all. I do 1059 not understand why the Minister should not have accepted it. I understand it less in that it has been put forward from the Labour benches. The effect of the Amendment would be the direct opposite of what is intended by the Mover, for it would increase the power of the Minister with regard to expenditure. If the Amendment were carried, the Minister would have complete powers with regard to any new expenditure proposed by local education committees. The Minister curtail such expenditure. The Amendment would give him statutory authority to do so. I suggest that the Amendment should be withdrawn. We desire to curtail the power conferred on the Minister by Clause 14.
§ Mr. WESTWOODI trust that nothing will be done by the Committee that will give the Minister power to discourage new schemes in connection with education, because in Scotland—I shall not apologise for intervening as a Scottish Member—we have to depend on the expenditure in England, and the more you curtail the expenditure on education in England the less we shall get for education purposes in Scotland. Quite recently we had a conference of the Scottish education authorities, and we dealt especially with the subject that has been raised by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Dr. Shiels). That conference was unanimously in favour of dealing with the physically defective in our schools in Scotland, and even more with the mentally defective, those who were unfortunate and required special treatment in education. I especially appeal that all those services in England should get all the encouragement possible. I may do so from a selfish point of view, but it is because we are desperately anxious in Scotland as education authorities—I am a member of the Executive of Scottish Education Authorities—to make a real move forward for dealing with physically and mentally defective children. But if you are going to stop experiments in England, if you are going to reduce the money available for education in England, you are going to make it trebly difficult for us to deal with this problem in Scotland.
To my own county of Fife only last Tuesday night, I went from this House to 1060 take part in a meeting of the education authority of the county. There we practically unanimously agreed to carry through an experiment for dealing with physically, and particularly mentally, disabled children. It will mean an enormous expenditure for that county. But we had hopes that with the increasing expenditure on education in England we at least should get our share of that increase. Therefore I trust that we shall do nothing in this House that will give to the Minister power to limit new experiments in connection with education. I have the courage of my convictions, and I am going to ask that the Amendment. be withdrawn, and that we shall have a general discussion on the power which has been asked for by the Minister to deal with the question of educational expenditure. Speaking with a good many years' experience from the administrative point of view, I trust that we shall not pass the Amendment.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ The CHAIRMANWith regard to the Amendments which immediately follow on the Paper, I suggest. doing what I have done on former occasions for the convenience of the Committee, and that is that where the arguments naturally dovetail one into the other, the discussions should take place on one or more together, without prejudice, of course, to separate divisions if so desired. The Amendments in the name of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris), the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones), and the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Cove), are all in order as separate propositions, but I imagine that there will be considerable difficulty in keeping the discussions of them apart. Therefore I propose to allow a Debate covering all the words
expenditure which in the opinion of the Board is excessive, having regard to the circumstances of the area of the authority or the general standard of expenditure in other areas,and so on, to be taken together. I do not know whether that would he for the convenience of the Committee? If so, I will call Mr. Harris.
§ Mr. HARRISI beg to move, in page 10, line 3, to leave out from the word "expenditure" to the word "which" in line 6.
1061 Perhaps the President of the Board of Education will accept this Amendment. I am not going to be unreasonable. I understand that he has a very difficult position. I can imagine cases where he finds himself committed to approve expenditure that might be excessive. So I am leaving in the words at the end of Sub-section (1)
which in the opinion of the Board unreasonably exceeds any estimate of expenditure made by the authority.If, for instance, a proposal for an elementary school were put before the Board, and it was then found that oak panelling had been used instead of deal panelling, or that marble had been used where concrete was ample, I would, certainly, permit the Minister to veto that expenditure. I am all against extravagance and any unnecessary expenditure, and I want to eliminate unreasonable proposals. The Minister is to have a roving commission to restrict the expenditure of some authorities because certain other authorities have not been able to keep their figures lower, and the authority which will be the first to suffer, undoubtedly, is London. When the figures are taken per child, London easily heads the list. London pays more per child than any other authority, I suppose, within the United Kingdom.
§ Mr. J. JONESDo not talk nonsense!
§ Mr. HARRISLondon has been under the control for the last 18 years of an authority which is entirely in sympathy with the President of the Board. It has had a majority that has been most careful in its administration. The right hon. Gentleman was a member of the Council for a good many years himself, and I think he could bear witness that there was not a suspicion of extravagance. On the contrary. in my experience they have erred, if anything, in the direction of economy. Every penny has been scrutinised and every pound possible has been cut down. I maintain that the London educational institutions as a whole, whether elementary, secondary or technical, are carried on with the most careful economy. There is not a single instance of extravagance that can be brought home to the London authorities. They have been, and are, most willing co-operators with the President of the Board of Education in the campaign of economy. During the last two months they have been cutting down in every direction in 1062 order to meet the demands of the President of the Board. They are making a considerable reduction in the total expenditure based on their estimates. But even a worm will turn; even the London County Council, the Moderate London County Council, the Conservative London County Council, the most economical London County Council, finds the proposals embodied in this Clause too much for them to swallow, and they have sent to all London Members—I am sorry to see so few London Members present—a request to get these words amended. Lower on the page there is an Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Fulham (Sir Cyril Cobb), who is a very distinguished follower of the right hon. Gentleman. I am not sure that he is not the Chairman of the Primrose League, and is moving on behalf of the London County Council a proposal to modify these words.
The proposals we are considering actually suggest that London, with its heavy costs, with its concentrated population, with its overcrowded areas, with its high price of land, may be compared with some rural authorities, say in Cornwall or in some district where the cost of both administration and of construction is small. That is not a power one ought to put into the hands of any Minister. It would mean that the London Education Authority is to be hampered and hindered because of the constant shadow hanging over them, that the President of the Board is to say that the cost of education here is so much higher than in Cornwall, and to claim the right to refuse to give it the 50 per cent. grant. It is not fair to compare the cost of a Ford car with a Rolls-Boyce; the two articles are quite different. In London, where the cost of land is high and the cost of building is high, where they have to build several storeys high, and it would not be fair to compare the cost in this case with the cost in a rural area where they can use timber and where land is cheap. That is obviously unreasonable. But there is another and a more serious thing. There is a Committee sitting to consider standard costs—it is a kind of conference of all education authorities—and they have been trying to provide some standard of reasonable comparison. It does not seem fair, while this conference is going on, to prejudice its findings and 1063 put this power into the hands of the President of the Board of Education.
Elementary education in one place is very often an entirely different thing from what it is in another. In London elementary education includes central schools which cost very much more for each child than education in the ordinary elementary schools, because in the central schools something nearly equivalent to secondary education is provided, while in the provinces the work that is done in the London central schools is done in the secondary schools and comes under the classification of secondary schools. In the last Memorandum on education published by the Board, attention was called to the fact that over 200 education authorities made no provision for the education of defective children, for the blind, for the mentally defective, the deaf and so on, whereas in London a large provision is made for defective children in special schools. They cost far more per head than the education in the ordinary elementary schools. The building has to be on more ample lines; there have to be more teachers compared with the number of children and more technical and handicraft work. In London the whole of that work may be lumped into the elementary school; but in the provinces where there is no provision of this kind, where they have neglected their duties and the Board has allowed them to neglect their duties, they are able to show a very much less cost because of their neglect of their responsibilities to those unfortunate children. It is not fair, or reasonable, or just, or right to give this power to the Board of taking an apparently low figure in one area to compare it with what seems to be a very high figure in another area.
Speaking for London, speaking, I believe, for a great number of provincial education authorities who are resenting the inclusion of these words in this particular Clause, I say there is perhaps a more serious aspect of these proposals. The Minister, for some reason or another which I have not been able to discover, has a special antipathy to the work of evening education. He has singled it out for special attack. In his Memorandum he has laid emphasis on the heavy cost of the work done in the evening classes, and in a statement of policy on
"Education Grants, 1926–27," he says: 1064
In the third place, technical education shows an increase of rather more than 500,000 over 1923–24. No one will wish to minimise the importance of further education of children in evening classes for the children leaving elementary schools, but the provision which is being made for this service in some areas can perhaps hardly be recognised as a substantial contribution to the problem of technical education.Then it goes on to say:In many cases local authorities have little control over the automatic expansion in the number and cost of these classes, and without wishing to lay down any general rule, this tendency seems to be one which should be carefully watched.In other words, everybody knows that, owing to the fact that attendances in evening institutes are not compulsory, there are many classes on this comparative basis that can be proved to be costly. It is very difficult to get tired children, after a hard day's work, to attend any place of education at all. They are already exhausted, and in order to induce them to attend, classes have to be made attractive and amusing. Physical exercises, gymnasium and dancing are always appreciated, and where these are provided the standard set by the Board can be adhered to. If the education is to be of real value, no one knows better than the President that there must be some work done in the schools of more educational value—something like a literary class, a Shakespeare class, history or literature, or something else that is likely to stimulate the minds of the children.5.0. P.M.
It is always difficult to get children to attend these classes, and the President knows only too well that the reason why so many of these classes are below the standard set by the Board is because they cannot be made attractive enough to the children. To come down under these powers and shut these schools will be a serious blow to all educational advance; it would he an attack on the work which many social reformers have been carrying on for years to stimulate the attendance of children at these evening institutes, which tends so much to the moral and mental advance of young people in towns. That, at any rate, is the impression that people have got outside. Less than 30 per cent. of the children leaving elementary schools go to these evening institutes, and now the Minister is taking power to shut down dozens of these classes because they are 1065 expensive. He is doing a bad day's work for the great child population who leave school at 14 years of age in our great towns. I hope these words will not remain in the Bill. They are too large powers to give to any Minister, and they are the wrong kind of powers. We do not want him to set one authority against another. We do not want a constant competition in the wrong kind of economy. What these authorities want who administer carefully and are doing good work to carry out the powers entrusted to them, is not to find the Minister a constant enemy and a constant handicap, but a colleague and a friend. Clothed with these powers, the Board will be put in the position of the fifth wheel of the coach. It will be clothed with special powers which will constantly irritate, handicap and worry the education authorities in doing their onerous duties. These proposals are reactionary, and I am strengthened in that view by the knowledge that the London Education Authority, a Conservative authority composed largely of members of the Noble Lord's own party, are opposed to it. I am satisfied that if this Amendment of mine were left to the free will of the House it would be carried.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESI gather from your ruling earlier in the proceedings, Mr. Chairman, that it will be convenient to you and to the Committee if we take the general discussion now on the three Amendments you have enumerated rather than confine ourselves to the discussion on the first standing in the name of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris). The Amendments we are now in course of discussing raise the main principle around which controversy ranges on the part of those who object to this Bill. In the course of the discussion yesterday several speakers on this side of the Committee invited the Noble Lord to be precise in his reply as to why it was he sought these powers. He was invited to say what particular standard of judgment he would set up in order to decide what in his view would be excessive expenditure or what would be expenditure which he could approve. As far as I was able to hear the Noble Lord, although I did not hear his remarks fully, I was not able to gather from him that he gave to the Committee an adequate reply 1066 to those questions which were addressed to him.
The first point which I want to discuss is the point in regard to the proviso concerning the circumstances of the area of the authority. I happen to represent in this House a Division which I admit is not educationally autonomous, but which might be quite hard hit under the provisions of this Bill were my Division an autonomous area from the standpoint of education. I mean this. From what the Noble Lord said yesterday when the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) said to him, "You are speaking of necessitous areas," and he replied, "Yes, this is a reference to necessitous areas," I presume that necessitous areas would have special significance to him under the provisions of this portion of the Clause. My area is an area which at this moment has a local rate of about 28s. in the£. I presume, therefore, that, if that local authority were an autonomous area, the Noble Lord, considering any educational proposals from an area such as that, would say to them immediately, "Your proposals may be good or they may be bad educationally, I may personally approve of them or I may not, but your position, having regard to your rates of 28s. 1d. in the pound, is so precarious that on other grounds than educational grounds I must reject your proposals." I want to ask the Noble Lord if that is what he has in mind when he seeks these exceptional powers under this Clause. Is he going to abrogate his powers as President of the Board of Education and assume powers which belong to some other Department of the Government? Is he going to sit in judgment upon the local authority from the standpoint of expenditure on general services, rather than upon this expenditure upon a particular service with which he has some special connection? It is important that we should know what this means because, if we examine this question, we shall find this. What in the main are these necessitous areas that would come under the ban of the Noble Lord as President of the Board of Education?
§ Lord E. PERCYThe hon. Member will remember, what I pointed out yesterday, that, as far as necessitous 1067 areas are concerned, there is no doubt that I have these powers already, because they are actually in the Board of Education Regulations applying to these areas.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESYes, I quite understand that, but the Noble Lord says at the beginning of the Clause in effect, "To remove any possible doubt in this matter, I warn you now that, when you come to me, I am going to use the big stick in future and if in my judgment your rates are exceptionally heavy, you may talk as long as you like and as eloquently as you like because to my mind they seem to involve you in too great a local expenditure from that point of view." May I ask the Noble Lord, if he already feels he has the powers which he is now asking for in this Clause, to tell us why he is wasting the time of the House in asking for the re-statement of those powers in this Clause? If he has them already, why not be content with them? The real reason, I presume, is that the Noble Lord wants to be able to avoid any question at all on the part of the local authorities as to his exercise of his powers. He wants to be able to say, "There it is, re-asserted in the Bill in express terms. I am the monarch of all I survey, there is no one who can dispute with me, I am the arbiter. Since I have decided this, take it or leave it." He is simply asking for himself absolute dictatorial powers which will enable him to refuse even to receive deputations to discuss the matter if he chooses. He can absolutely rely on the power in this Clause to say that he is not called upon to discuss it with them, that he has decided what is good for them, and not their local authority at all.
There are 318 local education authorities in this country. Why has the country got 318 local education authorities? Is it not because the country has decided and Parliament has decided that it is in the best interests of these local areas that people who are cognisant of the need of the local authorities shall be in charge of the educational machinery? They are the people who know. They have to have regard to the rates, but they have the duty imposed upon them to provide for the education in their respective localities. But under 1068 this Clause the noble Lord proposes to he local education authority for everybody. For these 318 areas, up and down the country, he is to be the person who shall finally decide this, that, or the other thing. It may very well be that the Noble Lord's assurance to us may be well-founded. He may say, "I shall not be arbitrary, I shall not be unfair, I shall use my powers rightly, I shall use my powers discreetly." What assurance have we got that he is going to remain where he is? He may be promoted to some other office under the Government. We may have a more reactionary President than the Noble Lord, and the consequence may be that the assurance that the Noble Lord is able to give us on his own account may have no relation whatever to any possible successor of his in this office. But once we have handed over these powers to the President of the Board of Education it belongs to his successor as completely as to him, and may not be used with the same wisdom as that with which we hope he will use them in his time.
The next question I want to raise is that of making this somewhat unsual and dangerous precedent of judging the expenditure of a local authority, not on its own intrinsic merits, but judging it in comparison with the expenditure of some other authority. I asked the Noble Lord yesterday, by way of interjection, what precisely he meant when he used the phrase "comparable areas." He said that he was going to judge this expenditure as between one area and an area which is comparable with it. Very good. If I did not misunderstand his argument, he said, "I have had powers already given to me of that. nature in another regard," and he argued that the parallel presented by the scale of salaries for teachers is a good parallel to adopt in this regard. I suggest to him that it is not quite the same. In the case of salaries of teachers you have some four scales of salaries. You have a scale that is applicable to purely agricultural areas; you have a scale that is applicable to half agricultural and half industrial areas; you have a scale which is applicable to industrial areas or city areas, and then there is the fourth or London Scale. You are able to arrive at a general standard in regard to salaries for teachers because you have certain well-ascertainable data on which to pro- 1069 ceed in fixing your scales of salaries. Moreover, your scale of salaries was only arrived at by agreement between the parties concerned. The teachers were there represented, the local authorities were there represented—the Board was not, of course, except in a watching capacity—and the two sides, the employés and the employers were represented on that committee which determined the scale of salaries for the country. But in the case of this particular Clause you provide no such machinery. There is no attempt to introduce any kind of discussion. The only person who is allowed to determine finally is the Noble Lord himself.
You cannot fairly compare every agricultural area with other agricultural areas. For instance, there are rural areas which are contiguous to areas of a more progressive type. I am thinking of two in particular, and in taking these two I want it clearly understood that I am making no reflection upon either of them. I am thinking, let us say, of authorities like the Herefordshire county authority and the Monmouthshire county authority, or, let us say, the Breconshire county authority and the Glamorganshire county authority. There you have the Glamorganshire authority, extremely progressive and very rich, and contiguous to it is the Breconshire authority, a rural authority. The same applies to Monmouthshire and to Herefordshire. I want to know from the Noble Lord, Is he, under this proposal, going to say to a progressive authority like Glamorganshire: "You are spending money far in excess of the standard of expenditure applied and practised in Breconshire, and I must, therefore, invite you to reconsider your position in the light of the expenditure of an authority which is adjacent to your own''? I want to drive that point right home, if I may, because it is rather important, à propos of this Clause.
If the Committee cares to look at the return given of the cost per child of elementary education for the year 1923–1924, it will find that the average expenditure per elementary school child for that year was£11 Ss. 9d., but if you take the expenditure of the highest authority, the heaviest expenditure, it is£17 8s. 10d., and if you take the expenditure of the lowest, it is only£7 7s. 5d. Between those extremes is an infinite variety of programmes and of policies. 1070 The progressive authority may have provided for the sort of expenditure of which an hon. Friend of mine was speaking last night, expenditure upon physical training for children, medical benefits for children, and so on. There may even be an authority which has provided very lavishly for some form of adult education, whereas another authority may never have dreamed of such a thing. The question we have the right to ask the Noble Lord is this: Is an authority which embarks upon this newer form of educational policy to be told that it must either stagnate and mark time, or retrogress to the standard of a less progressive authority, or is the policy to be to tell the less progressive authority to come up to the standard of the more progressive body? If it is that the Noble Lord will tell the less progressive authority to come up to the standard of the more progressive, then obviously he is not embarking upon a campaign of economy at all. What he should provide for in that case is more expenditure and a far greater measure of increased expenditure than the Noble Lord adumbrated yesterday.
Obviously, that is not the policy. The only policy, therefore, which the Noble Lord can have in mind is the policy of calling upon the more progressive authority to scale down its standards to the standards of the less progressive authority. I ask the Noble Lord whether we cannot have from him a full, complete and precise answer on those specific points? What is to be the standard judgment? Is it to take the average expenditure throughout the country and call upon every one of the less progressive authorities to come up to it and on the more progressive to come clown to it, or is it to call upon the least progressive to come up to the standard of the most progressive, or is it to call the most progressive to come down to the standard of the least progressive? There are three alternatives before the Noble Lord, and I think we should have a precise reply from him. He cannot have it both ways. The Noble Lord has been complaining for some time that he has been misrepresented in the country. He told some fellow-countrymen of mine last week-end in North Wales, if I did not misunderstand the report of his speech, that while he has been actually practising and encouraging progress, he has been accused—I am 1071 using my own words, not his—of stinting educational expenditure.
We ask the Noble Lord: Are we to understand that it is his policy, in spite of these Clauses, that local authorities who want to embark upon a progressive policy will be allowed, and not merely allowed but encouraged, to do so? If not, then how can the Noble Lord complain of misrepresentation? All that we accuse him of is of going back on an announced policy, a policy announced by himself and his leaders at the last Election, and propounded by him from a score of platforms in the country since the last Election took place. If the Noble Lord tells us that he wants to carry that policy into actual effect, well and good—he will get no one more sympathetic and more helpful than ourselves—but he cannot have it both ways. That is the point that I am making. He cannot ask for a reduction of educational expenditure on the one side, and then claim that he is advancing the interests of education on the other. I think I have indicated to the Noble Lord generally what sort of answer we would like from him on this particular issue. I merely want, in conclusion, to put this last point to him.
From my experience of a local education authority for some short time, and indeed from experience elsewhere, I think I can say that those people up and down the country who have charge of the administrative machine of education have been somewhat disheartened of recent years by the constant vacillations in policy for which the Board of Education has been responsible. Sometimes it has been progress, then it became reaction, then it became progress again, and then it became reaction again. It breaks the hearts of those administrators to find that their work is being hampered in this most unfortunate way, and I ask the Noble Lord, for the sake of the encouragement of those responsible for the administrative machine educationally, to let us know precisely what they are to expect. Is the policy of the manifesto of the Conservative party the policy still, or are Circular 1371 and Memorandum 44 the policy? What is the policy? People have a right to know for when they know they will be able, to use a common phrase, to cut their coat according to the cloth available. I hope the Noble Lord, before 1072 this Debate closes, will find it possible to give us precise answers to these questions as to what is in his mind. What is he going to cut down? Is it the education of children under five'? Is it scholarships? Is it secondary school provision? Is it adult education? What is going to suffer? Which branch of the educational tree is to be lopped off? Perhaps the Noble Lord will be good enough to tell us, and, if he does, we shall know, in the light of that reply, what reliance is to be placed upon the pretension of the Government that it is in favour of educational advance for the country.
§ Lord E. PERCYI do not know that my hon. Friend the Member for Southwest Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) expects the actual Amendment which he has moved to be taken seriously as a proposal, or whether he puts it forward merely as an indication of his general dissatisfaction.
§ Mr. HARRISIt is a serious Amendment.
§ Lord E. PERCYThen let me tell the Committee what the effect of it would be. The effect of it would be that the Board of Education would have no power to refuse to recognise any expenditure of a local authority, provided it did not unreasonably exceed any estimate of expenditure made by the authority. However high the estimate of the authority might be, the Board of Education would be obliged to recognise it for grant. If the authority, in the instance given by the hon. Member, sent in an estimate providing for the marble halls of which he talked, then the Board of Education would be obliged to recognise it for grant, but the only case in which they would be able to refuse recognition would be if afterwards the authority found that it had not, after all, provided quite enough, and it therefore exceeded its estimate.
§ Mr. J. JONESHas not the Noble Lord got those powers now?
§ Lord E. PERCYYes, I have got those powers now. Nobody thinks that under a percentage grant system under which the taxpayer can be taxed automatically by the expenditure of a local authority the expenditure of a local authority can be uncontrolled by Parliament through the Minister responsible, yet the 1073 Amendment of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green would make the authority wholly uncontrollable by Parliament, and it might spend any amount of money it pleased, as long as it estimated liberally enough beforehand. Therefore, that Amendment is clearly impossible, and yet it is the only Amendment before the Committee. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) has quite clearly pointed out that he wants the Amendment which stands in his name and the Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Cove), that they are not satisfied with cutting out either the circumstances of the area or the general standard of expenditure, and, therefore, we are left in this position by all three Amendments, that the only power of the Board is to disallow expenditure if an estimate is exceeded, that it will have no power whatever to refuse to recognise expenditure as long as the authority estimates liberally enough what it is going to spend. In these circumstances, I do not think I need waste very much time—
§ Mr. COVEIs it not true to say that the expenditure of local authorities upon which the Noble Lord may base grant is approved expenditure, that is, approved by the Board of Education, expenditure which he has accepted as legal expenditure, as necessary expenditure, and as expenditure upon which he and his Department are prepared to pay grants? Therefore, is it not further true to say that that approved expenditure gives the Board the power which the Noble Lord says we are now cuffing out?
§ Lord E. PERCYThe hon. Member is wrong, and if he will refer to the Act, he will find that I am right. I do not want to deal with the nature of a percentage grant, but the Act of 1918 provides a system by which grant is payable not on expenditure approved by the Board in advance, but on expenditure recognised by the Board retrospectively, after it is incurred. Grant is paid on expenditure which has been incurred and there is no approval in advance. I need not take up much time in arguing against this Amendment, but I will answer one or two questions which have been put to me. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) referred to, necessitous areas, and he asks, is it 1074 to deal with necessitous areas that the Government propose to take these powers? My answer is that as far as necessitous areas are concerned, our Regulations already provide for them. Necessitousness is not one of the things I had in mind at all in this connection. The same hon. Member asks me whether I propose to disallow expenditure on other than educational grounds., The answer to that question is, "No."
In these matters there has always been co-operation between the Minister of Health and the Board of Education, and if the Ministry of Health decide that a bankrupt area cannot be allowed to raise new loans, the Board of Education must co-operate. Subject to those reservations, the object of this proposal is that the Board should act in recognising or not recognising expenditure entirely on educational grounds. On that point there is an essential difference between these proposals and the provisions of the Economy Bill of 1922, which was introduced by the Coalition Government. That Bill proposed that the President of the Board of Education should have power to refuse to recognise expenditure merely on the ground that the Board of Education had not asked Parliament for a sufficient amount of money to cover that expenditure. I am confining my proposals to the power to disapprove expenditure on educational grounds and on the actual merits of the proposed expenditure. I do not think anyone can really suggest that in deciding whether or not to recognise expenditure we can altogether ignore the circumstances of the area. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) has pointed out the peculiar position of London, but his Amendment would rob me of any chance of considering the special circumstances of London areas.
As regards the general standard, I am asked what are my intentions. In this respect my intentions are not different from those of the right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Graham) and Mr. Fisher, who have urged that the Government should establish a general standard of expenditure in order to control the expenditure of local education authorities. The hon. Member for Caerphilly asks, am I to bring down the highest authority to the lowest or 1075 vice versâ, or am I to take some medium line? The only way in which a maximum standard can be arrived at is to take something in the neighbourhood of the maximum of expenditure in progressive and efficient areas which are comparable and to lay down that that expenditure shall not be exceeded but shall be the maximum standard. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle came to the conclusion that 6s. per head was too small for the maintenance allowance and he put it up to 9s., but he never proposed to bring everybody up to the level of Bradford. Therefore I think the attempt to prove that there is something sinister about this Clause really breaks down from every point of view and partakes of an attempt really to create prejudice. Anybody who has had anything to do with our educational administration knows that all these considerations are common form.
§ Mr. TREVELYANI asked the right hon. Gentleman if he would give us only one instance of the thing which he actually wants to do, and for which he has brought in this Clause.
§ Lord E. PERCYI am in communication with various authorities about this expenditure, I am questioning the expenditure in certain cases, hut I am not going to discuss the affairs of any particular authority.
§ Mr. TREVELYANYou cannot give one case.
§ Lord E. PERCYI am not going to give one case. The Debate on this Amendment might very well extend to a repetition of what happened yesterday, and I am sure the Committee does not wish the Debate to he extended. I think there has been an arrangement made by which a large part of our proceedings on this subject as a whole should terminate by 7 o'clock, and I suggest that we should now come to a decision.
§ Sir JOHN SIMONI do not think the speech which the Noble Lord has just made will really tend to the shortening of the Debate. This subject I know is very complicated and very technical, and only those who have had special knowledge of the subject can speak with authority upon it. I listened to the Noble Lord's speech with a sincere desire 1076 to be instructed about the administration of the Board of Education, but, in my opinion, the Noble Lord's proposition can be decided without any special knowledge. He stated that if the Amendment of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green was inserted, the effect would be to impose upon him as Minister of Education a complete disability to disallow any item of expenditure which was not in terms defined by the positive language of the Clause as it would then be altered.
If the Amendment is incorporated it will declare that, for the purpose of removing doubt, it is hereby declared that the Board of Education shall not be bound to recognise any expenditure described in a particular way. That would not put any prohibition or restriction upon the action of the Noble Lord. This is not a matter for educational experts but it is one for plain thinking and ordinary commonsense, and the Amendment does not do what the Noble Lord says it does. The real question is whether or not the Committee would be well advised in defining in these positive terms the discretion of the President. of the Board of Education.
§ Lord E. PERCYAs the right hon. Gentleman challenges my interpretation on this point, may I say that the Amendment will make the Clause read that the Board of Education shall not be bound to recognise
any expenditure which, in the opinion of the Board, unreasonably exceeds any estimate of expenditure made by the authority.Is not the implication that by leaving out the intervening Clauses I am bound to recognise any other expenditure?
§ Sir J. SIMONI have never before heard that in a case where by the present law the Minister has a discretion to say "yes" or "no," the fact that you limit the particular occasion on which he shall be bound to say "yes" is the same thing as limiting the occasions when he is bound to say "no." Of course, that is not so. If you choose to define some particular case where he shall not be bound he is still free to say "yes" or "no" in every other case. However, I do not care anything about that argument, except that, while it is all very well for the Noble Lord to ask that these Debates should be abbre- 1077 viated, I must point out that he began his own speech by a statement as to the meaning of some very simple English words which was the exact contrary to what anyone can conceive to be their meaning.
Now comes the matter of substance, which is whether or not it is desirable to include the words which my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) suggests should he left out. It is certainly a most remarkable fact that the Noble Lord, up to the present, has not thought it right, whether it be within his power or not, to give any single instance, or even any single illustration in any detail, of what he means by referring to the circumstances of the area of the authority. He has really left the Committee entirely in the dark about that. I am not in the least speaking because I claim to be an educational expert; I am not an educational expert; but I do speak as one who is most sincerely devoted to the cause of the education of the people, and I should have thought that the true way in which our present educational system works was this.
There are two checks, really, upon expenditure. The one check is the check provided by the fact that locally raised expenditure involves the raising of rates; and the other check is the check to which the Noble Lord refers, and which, no doubt, does exist within limits, namely, the check which the central authority exercises in one way or another—a supervising check. I do not doubt that. The real question is, which of these two checks, in a well-appointed system of national education, ought to come into operation first? That is the real question —which of the two checks, the rate check or the central departmental check, comes into operation to slow up the machine first; which ought to be the handle which really, when it is turned, stops the raising of more steam in the educational boiler?
I should have thought that the true view was this: If you have a responsibly elected local education authority, like, for instance, the great authority of London, for which the hon. Member for West Fulham (Sir C. Cobb) speaks with such authority, I should have thought that, if that locally elected authority, 1078 responsible to the ratepayers, in the closest touch with its constituents, exposed to a very great deal of reproach if it raises the rates, comes to the conclusion that, either for the sake of the essential service of education in its area or because it is the real wish of the ratepayers, it is prepared to expose its citizens to a rate of so much, that, on the whole, is the best possible indication that the amount of steam which is being raised in the educational boiler is not excessive; and, except in the rarest cases, I should have said that the other handle in the hands of the Minister really does not come into operation, because the rate check is the substantial and effective check which prevents absurd extravagances in expenditure. The other is the emergency handle.
There may be a case, I quite agree, where, in a special emergency, or for some special reason, the Minister finds, or his expert advisers find, that there is some local authority so foolish, so utterly reckless, that it is doing something for which he has to pull them up; but I should have thought that, as a matter of practical working, the real check in this business is the check of the rates. I do not believe you will find a responsible authority cheerfully sailing into educational extravagance when it has this very serious practical check pressing upon it day by day and week by week. That seems to me to be the real point that is raised. When the Noble Lord says, "My Department is anxious to have in express terms the power to consider the circumstances of the area of the authority," does not the local education authority know the circumstances of the area of the authority, and has it not this thing night and day at its side as the principal thing that it has to consider? I do not find it possible to believe that it is wise to put in these words
There is another observation of the Noble Lord's that I would like respectfully to criticise. I really do not understand what he meant when he said, in answer to something that was said on this side, that the work of the Board of Education, as far as local expenditure is concerned, is all after the event. Is it? Does the Noble Lord seriously represent to this Committee and to the country that that is how the thing 1079 works? He has been inviting local education authorities to submit schemes to him in advance, in order that he may discuss those schemes with these people, and indicate the view which he is disposed to form. Surely, technicalities apart, that does in substance mean that the Board of Education, in proper circumstances, is informed of, and indicates at any rate a provisional view about, expenditure in this locality or in that— not after it has been incurred, but before it has been incurred.
§ Mr. J. JONESIt takes us months to build a new school.
§ Sir J. SIMONThe hon. Member, in that remark, is referring to capital expenditure, and I must do the Noble Lord justice; he made an exception in regard to capital expenditure. Surely, before the Board of Education called upon the local education authorities to recognise the Burnham scale, they had lots of discussions with local education authorities—with, for instance, the London County Council—as to whether or not the Burnham scale was a scale which the Board on their side would be prepared to accept if the London County Council accepted it. I do not want to claim to be an expert about these matters I am not; but I have followed them as well as I could for many years, and I cannot believe that the Board of Education does not, under the Noble Lord's control, do what previous Boards have done, and that it has not constantly had before it, as a matter on which the Board expresses its opinion, not expenditure which has been incurred, but a scheme of expenditure which it is proposed to incur. The whole point here is, are you not doing a very dangerous thing to the cause of national education if you here advertise in this Clause of this Economy Bill, if you inform every public authority in the country concerned with education and warn them, that for the future there is no knowing what the Minister of Education is going to do in respect of expenditure which they have incurred, although the expenditure is in pursuance of a scheme of which the Board of Education has approved?
§ Mr. HADEN GUESTI was sorry just now to hear the Minister say that he thought a good deal of this discussion 1080 was for the purpose of raising prejudice. He used an expression of the same character yesterday when he described the Debate as a sham fight. I can assure the Minister and the Committee that the Debate, so far as we are concerned, is certainly not for the purpose of raising prejudice, and is certainly not a sham fight. We are engaged in a very difficult real fight, the real fight being to get from the Minister some specific information which he has consistently refused up to the present moment. Also, may I say that the Minister is quite wrong in thinking that local authorities feel no perturbation or distress with regard to this proposal. They feel the very greatest perturbation and distress. The whole of the London Members of Parliament have received a most elaborate document from the London County Council, an authority which is controlled by people of the right hon. Gentleman's own political colour. The London County Council are most disturbed as to the effects of this particular proviso, for the reasons which have just been set forth with very great eloquence by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). At the present time, putting aside for the moment the actual technicalities as to the time of approval, a local education authority does know what its educational budget is going to be, and it can make its rate but the education authorities are very much disturbed indeed to know how they are going to be able to budget in the future with regard to their educational expenditure, with this emergency hand of the Minister held over their heads.
This is really not quite so much of a sham fight as the right hon. Gentleman would lead us to think. Let me put to him one specific point. If the right hon. Gentleman is not willing to give us even one little instance of how he proposes to use this power—an actual instance of an actual local authority—he might at any rate, with regard to one particular service, let us say the special services, give ail example of how he proposes to compare, with regard to any particular two authorities, their expenditure on one particular department of education. How is he going to do it? I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that the reason why he does not give us a specific reply is, because he does not know—that he does not give us a specific reply because, I venture to 1081 say, he does not understand the precise wording of this Clause, and how he is going to apply these comparisons.
Let me ask him this precise question. Suppose that a new service is to be started. There was a time when in London there were no dental clinics at all. I am speaking of something which is within my own immediate knowledge, and in regard to which my mind is sufficiently full without referring to any notes. There was a, time in London when there were no dental clinics at all. There are now dental clinics over the whole of London. They began at an institution which I know very well, by a certain little experiment, which experiment, having proved successful, was extended by the. London County Council to one school after another, until finally it has extended over the whole London area. Suppose that in the future there is a new service which is thought by educational or medical experts likely to prove of great value to the children in the schools. How is the Minister going to rank a proposal for expenditure on that head, and how is he going to compare expenditure on a quite new proposed service with something in the past?
I think that in practice it will be found to be impossible to compare standards of expenditure. Supposing, let us say, it is suggested that the London County Council should instal artificial sunlight lamps in a number of schools, and should follow the extensive use of artificial sunlight for improving the life of children, as is being done at the present time in Germany. How is the Minister going to view a proposal of that kind? How is he going to compare the expenditure on that, which is a new service, with the expenditure of other years, when, of course, nothing of that kind existed? I suggest that the only real way of comparing one area with another is to compare the needs of the area from the point of view of the children as individuals, as human beings, and not from the point of view of the money expenditure. The comparison which the Minister tried to draw with regard to the proposal made by my hon. Friend the Member for one of the Divisions of Edinburgh, as to setting up standards of expenditure, is, when applied to education, a particularly difficult comparison to snake, because the Minister knows quite 1082 well that there are many heads of expenditure in education in the case of which it is impossible to make accurate comparisons. There are some in which yon can make accurate comparisons, but there are others in which you cannot make any comparisons at all.
If the Minister had given us any information at all as to what he proposes to do, we might be very much less doubtful as to the future than we are at the present time; but, as he has withheld all information, and has assumed at the last moment, in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Central Newcastle (Mr. Trevelyan), an air of mystery, and said that he will not reply, that he will not give us one single instance, I can assure him that we feel a very great disquiet indeed on this matter, and the educational authorities in the country will also feel a very great disquiet. I earnestly suggest to him that, for the sake of educational administration in this country, he should attempt to-night to lay down at least some general principle on which he is going to act with regard to standards of comparison as between the services which he is going to cut clown or push up, or do something which he has not described to this Committee. What we really want to know, and what I think the Committee has a right to know, when the Minister is asking us to give him very great powers, is what he proposes to do with those powers, and he can hardly ride off and say, "I will not tell you even one single thing."
§ 6.0 P.M.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSI listened with interest to the Noble Lord, who rather suggested that we ought not to revert to a general Debate on the Amendment. I think he said the Amendment really overlooked the whole question unless we were prepared to honour any agreement that had been made and bring our Debate to a very early conclusion. If some arrangements are made the whole party ought to abide by them but this is a matter that affects so many people in such a, wide area that we should do less than justice to our various constituents unless we did offer some observations where educational difficulties are arising at the moment. It might be righteous indignation of the Noble Lord when he suggests that the effect of the Clause is going to be little or nothing so far as any educational 1083 authority is concerned, and that may very well be felt in his own heart of hearts, but I think he would agree, since I have the good fortune to know that he himself has inspected the Division I endeavour to represent and knows the conditions prevailing there, when I say that whatever he may say in this or any other education Debate, whatever his hopes and desires and aspirations are with regard to providing educational facilities, without imposing further limitations on the possibilities of further expenditure there are hundreds of children in my Division for whom there has been no accommodation provided at all. I do not, of course, attribute this to the Noble Lord, whose period of office is much too short for that, but he will he the first to admit that we are suffering to-day from a legacy that has been handed down by some of his predecessors. I would suggest perhaps the Geddes Committee, which placed its hand over a wide area more or less responsible for many districts having fewer schools than they require merely to give the ordinary lowest and most common form of elementary education.
He knows that the West Riding Education Committee regard the new mining area in South Yorkshire as nothing more nor less than a nightmare because of the Ministers who preceded him, except, of course, the Minister in the Labour Government, who restricted the opportunities for building new schools where they were required in new mining districts, and because of these penalisations and restrictions in the years that, have gone by we find ourselves in this position, that in my division there are six new mining districts, and in not a single one of them are the facilities for the accommodation as large as is the demand from the children. I could bring, and I think I have in private conversation and in other ways brought individual cases which could be multiplied many times of people who have migrated from some other district to one of these new mining districts. They had children who had been struggling to secure a secondary education. They had won scholarships in the district they had left, but because of the lack of elementary educational facilities in the new district they have had to be left in a district probably 100 miles away, while the children who are 1084 brought along, who are anywhere from 10, 11, 12 to even 13 years of age, have been walking about the streets for months on end since there is no school, either temporary or permanent, for them to attend. It seems to me this is creating two problems. First of all, it prevents the child who is capable of winning a scholarship and securing extended education having the opportunity of doing its best during the years from eight up to 11 when they want to be preparing for the scholarship. Secondly—and this is the part that affects the Clause—the schools that exist are so overcrowded that it is a problem for the teachers, not to teach them, but merely to keep the children in hand. The size of the classes is extraordinarily big. The schools, which are temporary, where they exist at all, are in no way convenient for the best form of education, and to that extent the teachers are securing no comfort at all. The children who are going to school are not getting the quality and quantity of education they are entitled to. There are children strolling about the streets for whom no accommodation has been provided at all.
What does the Noble Lord intend to do in extraordinary districts similar to the new mining area of South Yorkshire? I know he has said more than once that in new mining areas the restrictions shall be as few as possible, but in speaking last evening his last few words were a reference to Durham. He said:
Durham has sent in a programme of building for this year, strictly within the limits of Memorandum 44, and it involves the building of no fewer than 25 new elementary schools. And that is not untypical of other counties. When you have got demands of that kind, it is absolutely essential, from the point of view of local authorities, of the central government, and of everyone concerned; to husband your resources in current expenditure as far as you can without hurting educational efficiency, in order to he able to provide for those demands which face local authorities." —[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 19th April, 1926; col. 993, Vol. 194.]But, surely, he must know that, be he ever so generous to the education authorities, the normal difficulties in the way of building new schools, put on their own restrictions, and make the expenditure of public money on elementary or secondary schools a very small proportion of the actual needs of any one district. 1085 Thousands of men and women in my division, who have attended meetings expressly to deal with this educational problem, have recently sent a message here demanding that their children should have the same rights as other children in any part of the country. They merely want their children to be educated.Is the Noble Lord facilitating the West Riding Education Committee in building all the new schools that are needed in South Yorkshire or is he going, under this economy Clause, to cause them to hesitate in the building of new schools so that they may expend money in other directions that they know to be necessary? With all the goodwill in the world, the very' fear of this economy is going to have an adverse effect upon districts similar to that I have named. The shortage of schools in new districts is due largely to economy which has been practised in the past, and the Noble Lord is now suffering from that legacy, but not to the extent of the child who only gets the maximum privilege of going to school till he is 14. There will be one or two years taken away from that and he is starting his race in life at a very great disadvantage. The Noble Lord cannot complain very bitterly if some of us attempt to express what we think our constituents believe. Their desire is merely for that education that their parents have to pay for, and if they are going to be restricted at all, even if the fear of restriction for their children enters their hearts, we are justified in putting no more power into the Noble Lord's hands to restrict the expenditure on new buildings or the ordinary current expenditure because of the large classes, fewer schools and indifferent equipment from which teachers and children have been suffering from in the past. The power already vested in the Minister is ample to meet the needs for every economy or anything else. I think instead of retarding the development of education he ought to be devoting his time to giving it a real impetus and assisting lively authorities to do for their people what they know their people require and are prepared to pay for.
§ Mr. E. EVANSThe Noble Lord has resorted to a practice which is common 1086 in the case of a Member of any Government who are resisting Amendments to a particular Bill in which they are interested. The practice is that of arguing that an Amendment has an effect quite contrary to that which its sponsors intend. That, I think, has been effectively disposed of by my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), who has pointed out that this Clause does not do that. It does not say the Board of Education shall recognise or shall refuse to recognise any particular expenditure. All it says is that the Board shall not be bound to recognise expenditure of a particular description and class. It seems to me the attitude of the Noble Lord towards this Amendment affords a reliable test of the true significance of the Clause. The attitude he has taken up all through these discussions is this. "I have ample powers already. This Clause is not going to give me anything I do not already possess." It is a very remarkable fact that the greater part of yesterday and a great part of to-day are being devoted to a discussion that arises out of a Clause which, according to that argument, is of no avail and of no purpose at all. I think by this time it has become apparent to all who have followed the discussion that unless this or a similar Amendment is accepted the Noble Lord, in fact, is having a very considerable addition to the powers the Board of Education now possesses. It certainly now assumes it has the authority even, whether it strictly has it or not, to refuse to sanction expenditure in the case of a local education authority here and there. That discretion hitherto has been exercised in regard to the programme of each local education authority under consideration at the moment. In this Clause the right hon. Gentleman is going to do more than that. He is introducing two additional tests or considerations. In the first place, there is
the circumstances of the area of the authority.I would ask any hon. Member who has had experience of the interpretation of Acts of Parliament by the Courts, what more mischievous phrase could be introduced into any Act of Parliament than a vague phrase such as,having regard to the circumstances of the area of the authority.1087 It is inviting trouble and difficulty all over the country. The other consideration is:or the general standard of expenditure in other areas.What possible meaning can be attached to that? The Noble Lord has used once or twice the phrase "comparable authorities." I do not know whether that helps the matter very much. As another test of the sincerity of the defence which the Noble Lord has put up, I would ask him what has he in mind when he talks about comparable authorities? There is an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Fulham (Sir C. Cobb) to introduce the word "similar."That is not the word which the Noble Lord has used, but in effect it is not very far removed from it. If he is sincere in saying that he is prepared to limit the discretion for which he is asking in this Clause in regard to his power to curtail the expenditure of any particular local education authority by reference to the expenditure of other education authorities, is he prepared to accept the Amendment standing in the name of one of his own supporters, the hon. Member for Fulham?
§ Mr. PALINGI understand that there is some arrangement that this debate shall finish before long. What I have to say will apply to my own particular area. What effect is this Clause likely to have on the developments which have been talked about for some years in my neighbourhood? Like the hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), mine, is a mining neighbourhood largely, which is expanding very rapidly, and for years we have had the utmost difficulty in building schools sufficiently fast to keep pace with the incoming population. Only a few months ago, in a district that is fairly well supplied, not a new area in the sense that there has been a pit sunk within the last few years, but an area where there has been a pit for 10 or 12 years, we had a meeting of protest by the people over the question of school premises which had been promised for two years, but had been held up for one reason or another. The accommodation in the existing schools was so bad that the people in the neighbourhood called the protest meeting, and they felt so keenly about the matter that they decided that if the school was not started to be 1088 built within two months, they would withdraw every child from every school in the neighbourhood.
That is the kind of problem that affects nay neighbourhood. Where elementary schools have to be built by such authorities, the Noble Lord probably will not apply restrictions: I hope not. There are other questions connected with the locality. A few weeks ago I was approached by a number of persons as to the possibility of getting a school built or some accommodation provided for mental defectives. I believe the accommodation in the West Riding is none too good in this respect. There are a great number of children for whom there is little or no provision made with regard to their education. I was asked what was going to be done. I approached the responsible authorities through the usual channels and was informed that it was intended to make provision within the next 12 months in the neighbourhood for these children. I would ask the Noble Lord whether under this Clause there is a possibility of that provision being ruled out. There is another question. For the past six years we have been agitating to get some kind of central school in this rapidly growing district. It has been promised for five or six years. Nothing has been done in so far as making a start is concerned, but I believe that a central school is anticipated at Bentley. Now that there seems some possibility of getting the place built, I would like to know whether this Clause will mean that in this neighbourhood we are to be penalised and that this will be considered excessive expenditure.
All who have had experience in the West Riding, and who have knowledge of the educational affairs there, will agree that there is great need for schools of the description I have mentioned, and I hope that the Noble Lord will do nothing to hinder the development of the building of such schools. There is also a tremendous need for more secondary school accommodation. The Don-caster Grammar School during the last four or five years has had huts of every description added to it. There has been no permanent building put up. War-time huts have been used until nearly the whole of the land around the school is occupied with these temporary buildings. Even now the accommodation is not sufficient. 1089 Is this Clause likely to be used to the detriment of the provision of further secondary school accommodation in this rapidly expanding neighbourhood? If the Noble Lord can promise us that there is no intention that it shall be used to stop developments on the lines I have mentioned, perhaps some of the fears that we have about the powers for which he is asking may be dissipated to a slight extent.
§ Mr. COVEI protest against the Minister's oft-repeated statement that the fight from our side is a sham fight. It is a real fight on behalf of the children against the reactionary policy of the President of the Board of Education. It is not only we on this side who regard this business with great misgiving. The London County Council also regard this Clause with very serious misgiving. They have issued a circular, and I want to put on record what they have said, so that the Noble Lord may ponder over the words:
The principle of comparing an education authority's expenditure with that of another or with the average for the whole country or for some particular area, is a dangerous principle.That principle has been embodied in this Clause, and it is the considered opinion of the London County Council that it is a dangerous principle, a principle which cannot be put into operation, and a principle which will reflect itself in grave injustice to many authorities. The Noble Lord has said that expenditure on education is quite uncontrollable. He knows that that statement is not correct. He knows that he has control of the expenditure upon teachers' salaries. He has controlled it to the extent that he has accepted scales of salaries for a period of five or six years. He has controlled expenditure on the feeding of school children by fixing the limit. He has controlled expenditure on school buildings and on the development of secondary schools by compelling the local education authorities to submit plans and programmes to him, which he can veto or accept at his discretion.What expenditure is left? Here I think I have come to what the Noble Lord is after, namely, the expenditure on copy books for children, expenditure on school stationery, expenditure on the heating of the schools, and expenditure 1090 on the wages of cleaners. Those are the things I believe the Noble Lord is after, with a view to curtailing expenditure. But he will find it a, very difficult task, because there have been different standards as far as equipment, stationery and books are concerned. He will have to take into consideration the response of the individual authorities to the cry of the Geddes Committee. I plead with him not to ask the Committee to accept this Clause. He is negotiating with the authorities. He has been in conference with them, and he is now in conference with them, I understand, on the whole system of the grants that are to obtain in the future. If he passes this Clause he prejudges the whole position. He gets standards and powers which, if they are to come at all, ought to come out of a conference with the local education authorities. If only to keep good faith with the local educational authorities, and to obtain their continued good will, I ask him as a last appeal to withdraw this Clause. He says he has the powers already. If so, he will suffer nothing by withdrawing the Clause, but he will gain everything by getting the hearty co-operation that is desirable in educational administration.
Mr. HORE-BELSHAThe Noble Lord has plunged me and the Committee into the utmost confusion, which is a curious way of making a speech explanatory of a Clause which professes to remove doubts. I do not profess to be an educational expert, but the people in my constituency who are interested in educational matters have not had their doubts removed, and I desire to ask the Noble Lord one or two specific questions. In the first place, how is it that what he says this afternoon does not tally with what he said last year? The Amendment proposes to leave out the words:
which in the opinion of the Board is excessive, having regard to the circumstances of the area of the authority or the general standard of expenditure in other areas.He was asked yesterday, but he did not answer, why it was that he said last year:I do not want any education authority to think that it cannot put forward a programme representing all that it really does want to do, for fear that the Board will try to cut it down in order to equal it to some less progressive authority.1091 Those words are entirely contrary to what the Noble Lord said this afternoon. In the speech from which I am quoting, he went on to say:There is no such suggestion or intention in our minds at all.There is a very definite suggestion of it in this Clause. The local education authority of Plymouth happens to be one of the most progressive authorities in the country. I say that, fully recognising that it happens to be under Conservative administration. The education committee there is under wise and prudent direction. It is under the direction of a man of great imagination. Plymouth has put forward certain proposals which will enable secondary education to be received free, and to make certain other ameliorations in the system prevailing. That scheme is now before the Noble Lord. Quite apart from whether or not he is going to give approval to that scheme, I would ask him to observe that the Borough of Plymouth spends very much more money on education than the comparable City of Portsmouth.There you have two identical areas— as far as you can compare one area with another. Plymouth spends 250s. per child on education as compared with 200s. in Portsmouth. It spends much more on its teachers. In every way it is superior to the Borough of Portsmouth, as far as you can compare one figure with another, and I want to know—and I hope the Noble Lord will answer me because he wishes to remove doubts—whether, having regard to this great superiority of Plymouth over Portsmouth in the matter of education, the greater wisdom of its direction and its greater expenditure per child, he is now going to turn round on Plymouth and say that he is going to reduce their standard in accordance with the powers given in this Clause. This Clause means that he is going to take the average of the lower authorities and cut all the higher expenditure of the more progressive authorities down to that average. Every time he does that, that standard ipso facto becomes law. In order to remove doubts, I ask him whether it is his intention, in a practical instance such as this, to penalise the progressive authority. He has refused to give any specific instances, he says it would be invidious, but I have had the 1092 temerity to give him a specific case, and, representing as I do an important constituency, I ask for a definite ruling from the Noble Lard. Will he be good enough to tell me whether in the case of Plymouth, which has a better standard of education than Portsmouth, which spends more on its teachers, which is going to give secondary education free and which spends much more per child than Portsmouth, he is going to penalise Plymouth, which is so progressive, and refuse to countenance any further expenditure.
§ Lord E. PERCYLet me answer one or two of the questions that have been addressed to me. In reply to what has been said by two hon. Members representing divisions in the West Riding, I would point out that the case of an area like the West Riding, where the whole of the progress in education depends on capital expenditure, falls entirely outside the scope of this Bill, it is entirely irrelevant. The actual position in the West Riding is that I am approving capital expenditure on elementary and other schools quite as fast and rather faster than the authority can get on with the actual work. I assure the hon. Member that there is no hold-up in that area where the position is very serious.
§ Mr. PALINGWill the Noble Lord tell me what the position is with regard to the provision of schools for the mentally deficient?
§ Lord E. PERCYThat is a new point to me, and perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to look into the matter. I am rather surprised that the hon. Member for Devon-port (Mr. Hore-Belisha) should have put his question. To the best of my recollection, I have told the Plymouth authority what I propose to do. They have put a programme before me which, over a period of eight or nine years, reduces in the ultimate result their expenditure on elementary education, at the same time greatly increasing its efficiency. It is a sign that expenditure and efficiency do not necessarily go together. I have discussed that programme with them, and informed them fully of my views on their revised forecast. I will discuss with the hon. Member the matter more in detail if he will give me time to refer to the actual correspondence.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'cir- 1093 cumstances' in line 4, stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 275; Noes, 142.
1095| Division No. 175] | AYES. | [6.27 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Elliot, Captain Walter E. | Locker-Lampton, Com. O. (Handsw'th) |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Elveden, Viscount | Loder, J. de V. |
| Albery, Irving James | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston.-s-M.) | Looker, Herbert William |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Lord, Walter Greaves- |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Everard, W. Lindsay | Lougher, L. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Fairfax, Captain J, G. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vers |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Apsley, Lord | Fermoy, Lord | Lumley, L. R. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Fielden, E. B. | Lynn, Sir Robert J. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Ford, Sir P. J. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I, of W.) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Balniel, Lord | Frece, Sir Walter de | Macintyre, Ian |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | McLean, Major A. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm |
| Beamish, Captain T. P. H. | Ganzoni, Sir John | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John |
| Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Gates, Percy | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Gee, Captain R. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R. Skipton) | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Blundell, F. N | Goff, Sir Park | Marriott, Sir J. A, R. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Grace, John | Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Gretton, Colonel John | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Grotrian, H. Brent. | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hall, Capt. W. D. A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Moreing, Captain A. H. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Hammersley, S. S. | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Burman, J. B. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Murchison, C. K. |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Harmsworth, Hon, E. C. (Kent) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hartington, Marquess of | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Haslam, Henry C. | Oakley, T. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, city) | Hawke, John Anthony | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Cazalet, Captain victor A. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Purring, Sir William George |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Hills, Major John Waller | Pielou, D. P. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Plicher, G. |
| Christie, J. A. | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Preston, William |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Holland, Sir Arthur | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Radford, E. A. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Raine, W. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Ramsden, E. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper |
| Cope, Major William | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) |
| Couper, J. B. | Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Remer, J. R. |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington,N.) | Howard, Captain Hon. Donald | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Ropner, Major L. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Hurd, Percy A. | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S. | Rye, F. G. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Jacob, A. E. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Jephcott, A. R. | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Savery, S. S. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) |
| Davison, Sir Philip | Kinloch-Cooke, sir Clement | Skelton, A. N. |
| Dixey, A. C. | Knox, Sir Alfred | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Drewe, C. | Lamb, J. Q. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.) | Tinne, J. A. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Steel, Major Samuel Strang | Waddington, R. | Withers, John James |
| Stott, Lieut-Colonel W. H. | Wallace, Captain D. E. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Strickland, Sir Gerald | Ward, Lt.-Col.-A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) | Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles | Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) |
| Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Watts, Dr. T. | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Templeton, W. P. | Wells, S. R. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. | |
| Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) | Major Hennessy and Captain Bowyer. |
| Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hayes, John Henry | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Simon, Ht. Hon. Sir John |
| Ammon, Charles George | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hirst, G. H. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Barnes, A. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Barr, J. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Batey, Joseph | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Briant, Frank | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Broad, F. A. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Kelly, W. T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Buchanan, G. | Kennedy, T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Cape, Thomas | Kenyon, Barnet | Sutton, J. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kirkwood, D. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Clowes, S. | Lee, F. | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lindley, F. W. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Livingstone, A. M. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Connolly, M. | Lowth, T. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Cove, W. G. | Lunn, William | Thurtle, E. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Mackinder, W. | Townend. A. E. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | March, S. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Dennison, R. | Maxton, James | Varley, Frank B. |
| Duckworth, John | Montague, Frederick | Viant, S. P. |
| Duncan, C. | Morris, R. H. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Edwards, John H. (Accrington) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| England, Colonel A. | Murnin, H. | Warne, G. H. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Naylor, T. E. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Oliver, George Harold | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Forrest, W. | Owen, Major G. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Palin, John Henry | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Gillett, George M. | Paling, W. | Westwood, J. |
| Gosling, Harry | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Whiteley, W. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Potts, John S. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Ribs, sir Beddoe | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Grovel, T. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliff) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Riley, Ben | Wilson, R. J. Narrow) |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Ritson, J. | Windsor, Walter |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) | Wright, W. |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Rose, Frank H. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Sakiatvala, Shapurji | |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Salter, Dr. Alfred | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Harney, E. A. | Scrymgeour, E. | Mr. Percy Harris and Sir Godfrey Collins. |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Sexton, James | |
| Hayday, Arthur | Shiels, Dr, Drummond |
§ Amendment proposed: In page 10, line 4, to leave out from the first "the" to the word "general" in line 5.— [Mr. Morgan Jones.]
1096§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'or,' in line 5, stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 270; Noes, 140.
1099| Division No. 176.] | AYES. | [6.48 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Apsley, Lord | Barnston, Major Sir Harry |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Beamish. Captain T. P. H. |
| Albery, Irving James | Astor, Viscountess | Benn, sir A. s. (Plymouth, Drake) |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Bennett, A. J. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Balniel, Lord | Betterton, Henry B. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Blades, Sir George Rowland |
| Blundell, F. N. | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Oakley, T. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | O'Connor, T. J, (Bedford, Luton) |
| Brass, Captain W. | Hammersley, S. S. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Briggs, J Harold | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Harrison, G. J. C. | Perring, Sir William George |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hartington, Marquess of | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Pielou, D. P. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Haslam, Henry C. | Pilcher, G. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hawke, John Anthony | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Preston, William |
| Burman, J. B. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Radford, E. A. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Raine, W. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Ramsden, E. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Rawson, Alfred Cooper |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hills, Major John Waller | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Remer, J. R. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.) | Hogg, Rt.Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Holland, Sir Arthur | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Ropner, Major L. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J.A. (Birm.,W.) | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Rye, F. G. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Christie, J. A. | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Howard, Captain Hon. Donald | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Savery, S. S. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'I, Exchange) |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hurd, Percy A. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Cope, Major William | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) |
| Couper, J. B. | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington,N.) | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Skelton, A. H. |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Jacob, A. E. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon, Cuthbert | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Jephcott, A. R. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Knox, Sir Alfred | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Lamb, J. Q. | Strickland, Sir Gerald |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Loder, J. de V. | Sugden, Sir Wilfred |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Looker, Herbert William | Templeton, W. P. |
| Dixey, A. C. | Lord, Walter Greaves- | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Drewe, C. | Lougher, L. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Elliot, Captain Walter E. | Lumley, L. R. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Elveden, Viscount | Lynn, Sir R. J | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Waddington, R. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Macintyre, Ian | Ward, Lt.-Col.A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | McLean, Major A. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Fermoy, Lord | Macmillan, Captain H. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Fielden, E. B. | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Macquisten, F. A. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Wells, S. R. |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Margesson, Captain D. | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Gates, Percy | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Withers, John James |
| Gee, Captain R. | Moore Sir Newton J. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Goff, Sir Park | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) |
| Grace, John | Morrison-Belt, Sir Arthur Clive | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Murchison, C. K. | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Gretton, Colonel John | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Nuttall, Ellis | Major Hennessy and Lord Stanley. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hayes, John Henry | Sexton, James |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Ammon, Charles George | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hirst, G. H. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Barr, J. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Broad, F. A. | Jenkins, W, (Glamorgan, Neath) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Bromley, J. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Slivertown) | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cape, Thomas | Kelly, W. T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Stewart. J. (St. Rollox) |
| Clowes, S. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kenyon, Barnet | Sutton, J. E. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Kirkwood, D. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Lee, F. | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Connolly, M. | Lindley, F. W. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.) |
| Cove, W. G. | Livingstone, A. M. | Thorne. G. R. (Wolverhampten, E.) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lowth, T. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lunn, William | Thurtle, E. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Dennison, R. | Mackinder, W. | Townend, A. E. |
| Duckworth, John | March, S. | Trevelyan, Bt. Hon. C. P. |
| Duncan, C. | Maxton, James | Varley, Frank B. |
| Edwards, John H. (Accrington) | Montague, Frederick | Viant, S. P. |
| England, Colonel A. | Morris, R. H. | Wallhead. Richard C. |
| Fenby, T. D. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Forrest, W. | Murnin, H. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Naylor, T. E. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Gillett, George M. | Oliver, George Harold | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Gosling, Harry | Owen, Major G. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon Josiah |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Palin, John Henry | Whiteley, W. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cant.) | Paling, W. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Groves, T. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Potts, John S. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Riley, Ben | Windsor, Walter |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Ritson, J. | Wright, W. |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Harney, E. A. | Rose, Frank H. | |
| Harris, Percy A. | Sakiatvala, Shapurji | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Warne. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Scrymgeour, E. |
§ Amendment proposed: In page 10, line 5, to leave out from the word "authority" to the word "or" in line 6.—[Mr. Cove.]
1100§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'areas,' in line 6, stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 274; Noes, 140.
1103| Division No. 177.] | AYES. | [6.58 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Briggs, J. Harold | Christie, J. A. |
| Albery, Irving James | Briscoe, Richard George | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Clarry, Reginald George |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Clayton, G. C. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C (Berks,Newb'y) | Conway, Sir W. Martin |
| Apsley, Lord | Buckingham, Sir H. | Cope, Major William |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Couper, J. B. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Burman, J. B. | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. |
| Balniel, Lord | Burton, Colonel H. W. | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Barnett, Major Sir R. | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Campbell, E. T. | Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry |
| Beamish, Captain T. P. H. | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Curzon, Captain Viscount |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Bennett, A. J. | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Davies, Dr. Vernon |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm.,W.) | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) |
| Brass, Captain W. | Chapman, Sir S. | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Remer, J. R. |
| Dixey, A. C. | Hurd, Percy A. | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Drewe, C. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'I) | Ropner, Major L. |
| Elliot, Captain Walter E. | Jacob, A. E. | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Elveden, Viscount | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Jephcott, A. R. | Rye, F. G. |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Falie, Sir Bertram G. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Fermoy, Lord | Knox, Sir Alfred | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavs D. |
| Fielden, E. B. | Lamb, J. Q. | Savery, S. S. |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Loder, J. de V. | Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Looker, Herbert William | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Lord, Walter Greaves- | Skelton, A. N. |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Lougher, L. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Gates, Percy | Lumley, L. R. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Gee, Captain R. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Goff, Sir Park | Macintyre, Ian | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Grace, John | McLean, Major A. | Strickland, Sir Gerald |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Gretton, Colonel John | Macquisten, F. A. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Templeton, W. P. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Margesson, Captain D. | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen. South) |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Merriman, F. B. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Harland, A. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Harmtworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Waddington, R. |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Murchison, C. K. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Wells, S. R. |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Nuttall, Ellis | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Oakley, T. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Hills, Major John Waller | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Hilton, Cecil | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Withers, John James |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Perring, Sir William George | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Holland, Sir Arthur | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich. W.) |
| Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) |
| Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Pielou, D. P. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Hopkins, J. W, W. | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Preston, William | Wragg, Herbert |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Price, Major C. W. M. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Radford, E. A. | |
| Howard, Captain Hon. Donald | Raine, W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Ramsden, E. | Major Hennessy and Captain Bowyer. |
| Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper | |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Cape, Thomas | Dennison, R. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Charleton, H. C. | Duckworth, John |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Clowes, S. | Duncan, C. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Cluse, W. S. | Edwards, John H. (Accrington) |
| Barr, J. | Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | England, Colonel A. |
| Batey, Joseph | Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Fenby, T. D. |
| Broad, F. A. | Connolly, M. | Forrest, W. |
| Bromley, J. | Cove, W. G, | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Gillett, George M. |
| Buchanan, G. | Crawfurd, H. E. | Gosling, Harry |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Mackinder, W. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | March, S. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Maxton, James | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Groves, T. | Montague, Frederick | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Grundy, T. W. | Morris, R. H. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Murnin, H. | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Naylor, T. E. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Oliver, George Harold | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Owen, Major G. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Harney, E. A. | Palin, John Henry | Thurtle, E. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Paling, W. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Townend, A. E. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Hayes, John Henry | Ponsonby, Arthur | Varley, Frank B. |
| Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Potts, John S. | Viant, S. P. |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Bees, Sir Beddoe | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Hirst, G. H. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Riley, Ben | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Ritson, J. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) | Westwood, J. |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Rose, Frank H. | Whiteley, W. |
| Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sakiatvala, Shapurji | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Scrymgeour, E. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Sexton, James | Williams. Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Kelly, W. T. | Shiels, Dr. Drummond | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Kennedy, T. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Kenyon, Barnet | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Windsor, Walter |
| Kirkwood, D. | Sitch, Charles H. | Wright, W. |
| Lee, F. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Lindley, F. W. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) | |
| Livingstone, A. M. | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Lowth, T. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Warne. |
| Lunn, William | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
§ Mr. AMMONI beg to move, in page 10, line 6, after the word "other," to insert the word "similar."
This Amendment is far too important to allow it to lapse by the failure of the hon. Member for West Fulham (Sir C. Cobb), who is entrusted by the London County Council to raise this point. Therefore, I have been asked, as an ex-member of the education committee of the London County Council, to move this Amendment. Evidently, the council must have been suspicious whether the hon. Member would go forward with the Amendment in view of the whip of his own party. I hope the Noble Lord will see his way clear to accept the Amendment. It is for the purpose of carrying out and making quite definite that which he professes in the Clause now before us. It seeks to make quite sure that comparisons are made between areas which are quite comparable so far as economic and educational issues are concerned. If the Clause be amended with this and the following word, it would read—
or the general standard of expenditure in other similar areas whore conditions are comparable.Under existing arrangements, in addition to the 50 per cent. grant a grant to each authority—
§ Lord E. PERCYThe hon. Member is on the wrong Amendment.
§ Mr. AMMONIn this connection we are asking that words shall be inserted which will give exactly what the Noble Lord says it is his intention to give, namely, that there shall be grants made that shall be in connection with authorities which are clearly comparable. If this be so, then we ask him to accept the Amendment which will show he is sincerely meaning that which he proposes to do.
§ Mr. HARRISI think I ought to explain, as a Member of the County Council, that I have been requested to move this Amendment and all London Members have been asked to support it. I can say that it is the result of very careful consideration and thought by the Education Committee supported by the Finance Committee of the London County Council. They consider it essential, in order to feel sure, that this word should be added. The hon. Member for Fulham West (Sir C. Cobb) would have moved it, but pressure has been brought to bear on him not to press the Amendment because of the fear that a Report stage of this Bill may become necessary. Instead of this Amendment 1105 being moved in the House of Commons in the proper place for dealing with a financial matter, it is going to be put in another form in another place. I think this is most improper. I protest, first as a London Member, and secondly as a member of the London County Council.
§ Lord E. PERCYI cannot accept the Amendment. I remember Mr. Asquith on a famous occasion criticising the word "similar" in a Bill and asking what degree of remoteness from identity it signified. It is an expression which means practically nothing. As I pointed out, you cannot get any two areas which are precisely similar, and therefore this Amendment is really an Amendment to secure precisely the same object as the previous Amendment. We have discussed the whole question of this comparison very fully, and I do not think the Committee wish to consider it further.
§ Sir J. SIMONReally the Noble Lord, I suppose, has some information to give to the very important body that has specially asked that this Amendment should be put forward. The Noble Lord is informed that the London County Council is concerned lest the Clause, as it stands, might have, a serious effect upon them. It may be quite true that there is a difficulty in determining precisely what you mean by "similar," but there is an equal difficulty in determining what the Noble Lord means by
the general standard of expenditure in other areas.I ask the Noble Lord, before this Bill passes from the House, whether the Government do not intend to give any information, publicly or privately, to a great authority like this as to whether the conditions in question are conditions that are comparable or similar to the conditions of the particular authority?
§ Mr. J. JONESUnfortunately, some of us represent constituencies which are not part of London, although in the London area, and our difficulty is exactly the same as that of the London County Council in this particular connection. We have gone in for advanced education as far as we are able. Are we going to discover that our future position will be judged, not by our own activities with regard to education, but 1106 by what may happen in some Outlandish part of the country where they are not so keen about education as we are? Some people have been given the gift of language to hide their thoughts, but evidently the President of the Board of Education has decided, as far as he is concerned, to use as many words as possible to say the least he can to explain exactly what he means. We want to know exactly where we stand so that local education authorities should know in the future to what kind of comparison they are to be subjected. What will be justifiable expenditure? Those of us who are members of education committees have to present our budgets annually to our own authorities. Some hon. Members seem to be under the impression that we are a lot of people who are looking for means to spend money. As a matter of fact, we cannot spend more than our people will allow us to spend, and we have to submit our budget every year, the same as the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has to undergo severe criticism if he touches people where they do not want to be touched. After all, the Government are not paying all the costs of education. The local authorities have to bear their share, and the members on local authorities are just as keen in their criticisms as Members in this House.
In spite of all the talk about extravagant expenditure and squandermania, you will find in the poorer parts of the country we, who are suffering severely from industrial depression, are looking at every shilling before we spend it, and, therefore, we ought to know how far we can go. In our own district we have had turned down an open-air recovery school. The doctors went through the schools and picked out a certain number of children who would be benefited by being in an open-air recovery school which we have in Essex in a beautiful spot, and where those children have benefited as a result of that experiment. There their health as been improved, and their possibility of education has been made greater. And now we are told this will he cut down. Even before this Clause was introduced, we were told we could not go on, and these children have got to remain in the slum districts. Because any education authority looks upon education as being more a matter, not of putting something into children's heads, 1107 but of bringing out of them all they are capable of giving, mentally and physically —and is that not as much education as telling them that two and two make four?—are the more advanced authorities which come forward with new ideas of education to be told in future, "Oh, no, you cannot have these ideas carried out in practice, because there is a little place 50 miles beyond nowhere whose education authority believes that children were born, not to go to school, but to go to work, and were born with spades in their hands instead of golden or silver spoons in their mouths "?
We ought to know with what the comparison is to be. We want the son of the docker in my constituency to have the same chance as the son of the duke has got on the opposite side. The son of the docker deserves it more, because he has a harder struggle to live, whereas the other is already provided for. Are our people to have the worst kind of education, and yours the best every time? You can fool all the people some of the time; you can fool some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. We want to know where we stand. Who is going to make the comparison? It is not the President of the Board of Education who is going to make this comparison. The real makers of this comparison are conveniently absent whenever it suits. It is not what the right hon. Gentleman thinks ought to be done, but what someone else thinks must be done, and to save the pockets of the people who are better able to afford these sacrifices than the people called upon to make them. We ask for fair treatment, and we do not get it. All that we get from the Noble Lord is his sympathy. Sympathy does not butter any parsnips. We want some practical illustration of what he means by these Clauses. There is not a word of explanation from those opposite who go down to constituencies such as West Ham, and with tears in their voices tell them what interest they take in them, but say nothing about the interest they are taking out of them Those gentlemen all sit like dumb cattle without discussing these propositions. Not a word has been said in defence of the policy of the Government. Why cannot we get an explanation of the meaning of this? They know, but they shun the 1108 light because their deeds are evil. They can beat us by votes, we know, but they cannot beat us with brains. If they could, they would have tried it on. Evidently they are depending upon the big battalions.
We say that the most advanced education authorities in this country are all against the Government. Even the London County Council, with the majority of supporters of the Government, are suspicious, and ask for an explanation, but you refuse even them an answer. Here you are handing over to people, over whom we have no control, who have no authority in matters of finance, to decide what the financial result will be to the local authorities responsible for the education of this country. All the progressive education authorities will want to know what this means, and, after all, gentlemen who have been to the Universities ought to be able to explain the meaning of their own language, and not speak to us in dog Latin. I have heard the right hon. Gentleman talking two days, and I do not know yet what he is talking about.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALLAs an old Member of the London County Council and a London Member, I should like to ask my Noble Friend a question. My hon. Friend the Member for West Fulham (Sir C. Cobb) put down this Amendment. Is it a question of difficulty with regard to the present stage, or is my Noble Friend prepared to say he will, in another place, introduce words in order that this difficulty may be overcome? Because there is a question as to what is meant by the present phraseology, and if my Noble Friend can give some promise that he will consider the matter further, with a view, if possible, of making the necessary alteration in another place, as far as I am concerned, that will meet the case; but, if not, I am afraid, much as I regret it, I shall he compelled in this matter to vote against the Government I should be glad if my Noble Friend would give an explanation.
§ Mr. HARNEYI really am quite at a loss to know why the Noble Lord will not accept this Amendment, unless he fears that by doing so it will be necessary to have a Debate on the Report stage. The Clause itself says that its purpose is to remove doubts as to what people are to do. The Clause says that 1109 the Board may not recognise expenditure which is greater than the general standard of expenditure in other areas. What is "the general standard of expenditure in other areas?" I should have thought that, vague as those words are, they are made more precise by saying "similar," which narrows the ground somewhat, and "where conditions are comparable," narrows it more. Therefore, if the purpose of the Clause be to remove doubts as to what is the standard, undoubtedly, the Amendment leaves less room for doubt than does the original Clause.
§ Mr. WALLHEADI should not like this Clause to go through without expressing what I know is the educational point of view of the authority in the constituency I represent. I would not like it to be thought it was merely a view so far as London is concerned. There are other educational authorities besides London which have borne the banner of advanced education. The education authorities or Merthyr Tydvil claim the honour of having advanced secondary education further than any other authority in the country. Here are boroughs pressed with rating difficulties and compelled to economise, but which are to be punished still further because they do not come into line with educational authorities very much behind themselves.
I agree with what has been said with regard to the necessity of advancing, and not retarding education. We are going to hear a great deal before very long about the necessity of this country doing something to maintain its standard and place in the competitive markets of the world. The States on the Continent, even those which are passing through bankruptcy—States like Austria and Germany—face to face with tremendous difficulties, instead of decreasing their educational facilities, increase them by all means in their power. They are adding to their facilities for technical education, secondary
§ education and university education. We are all the time having demands put forward that efforts shall be made to meet the increasing keenness of international competition, and yet here we are cutting down the one thing which would put our workmen on a level with the workmen of other countries, It is a retrograde step, and it is not economy. I protest, not only in the name of the people whom I represent, but in the name of working men and children in the whole of the country. We are demanding more education and not less. We are demanding that, if economy be necessary, it shall be made on what are more obviously objects for economy, and not on education. We object to advanced authorities, which have spent money for years past, having the whole of their work retarded, because they are to be compared, to their disadvantage, with education authorities of less attainments.
§ Lord E. PERCYI have been asked a specific question, and I will answer it. I oppose this Amendment on the ground that I cannot agree that London has any right to be placed in a position where it would say,"Our circumstances are so peculiar in all respects that no comparison can be made between us and any other area in the country."That I want to avoid, and, therefore, I cannot accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. WALLHEADThis does not apply to London only.
§ Lord E. PERCYIf, on the other hand, it is urged that in no case should an area be compared with other areas without at the same time a consideration of the circumstances of the particular area itself, I shall be very glad to consider whether I cannot put something in the Clause in another place to meet that point.
§ Question put, "That the word 'similar' be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 145; Noes, 262.
1113| Division No. 178.] | AYES. | [7.34 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Bromley, J. | Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Cobb, Sir Cyril |
| Ammon, Charles George | Buchanan, G. | Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Connolly, M. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Cape, Thomas | Cove, W. G. |
| Barr, J. | Charleton, H. C. | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) |
| Batey, Joseph | Clowes, S. | Crawfurd, H. E. |
| Broad, F. A.. | Cluse, W. S. | Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) |
| Dennison, R. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Smillie, Robert |
| Duckworth, John | Kenyon, Barnet | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Duncan, C. | Kirkwood, D. | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| England, Colonel A. | Lee, F. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Fenby, T. D. | Lindley, F. W. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Forrest, W. | Livingstone, A. M. | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Lowth, T, | Stamford, T. W. |
| Gee, Captain R. | Lunn, William | Stephen, Campbell |
| Gillett, George M. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Gosling, Harry | Mackinder, W. | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Graham, D, M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | March, S. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins) | Montague, Frederick | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Morris, R. H. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Groves, T. | Murnin, H. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Naylor, T. E. | Thurtle, E. |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Oliver, George Harold | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Owen, Major G. | Townend, A. E. |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Palin, John Henry | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Paling, W. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Viant, S. P. |
| Harney, E. A. | Pethick-Lawrence, F W. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Potts, John S. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Hayday, Arthur | Bees, Sir Beddoe | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Hayes, John Henry | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Westwood, J. |
| Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Riley, Ben | Whiteley, W. |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Ritson, J. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Hirst, G. H. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Rose, Frank H. | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Sakiatvala, Shapurji | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Scrymgeour, E. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Sexton, James | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond | Windsor, Walter |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Wright, W. |
| Jones, J. J. (West Ham. Silvertown) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | |
| Kelly, W. T. | Sitch, Charles H. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Kennedy, T. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Warne. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Fielden, E. B. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Ford, Sir P. J. |
| Albery, Irving James | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Foster, Sir Harry S. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Chapman, Sir S. | Frece, Sir Walter de |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Christie, J. A. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Galbraith, J. F. W. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Clarry, Reginald George | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Clayton, G. C. | Gates, Percy |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton |
| Balniel, Lord | Couper, J. B. | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Goff, Sir Park |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Beamish, Captain T. P. H. | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Greene, W. p. Crawford |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Gretton, Colonel John |
| Bethel, A. | Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Grotrian, H. Brent |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) |
| Brass, Captain W. | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Harland, A. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Dawson, Sir Philip | Hartington, Marquess of |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Dixey, A. C. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Drewe, C. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Eden, Captain Anthony | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hawke, John Anthony |
| Burman, J. B. | Elliot, Captain Walter E. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Elveden, Viscount | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd. Henley) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Henn, Sir Sydney H. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Everard, W. Lindsay | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.) | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Fermoy, Lord | Hills, Major John Waller |
| Hilton, Cecil | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Skelton, A. N. |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Holland, Sir Arthur | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Howard, Captain Hon. Donald | Murchison, C. K. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Strickland, Sir Gerald |
| Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Hurd, Percy A. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Oakley, T. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Tasker, Major R. Inigo |
| Jacob, A. E. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Templeton, W. P. |
| James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Perring, Sir William George | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Pielou, D. P. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Preston, William | Tinne, J. A. |
| King, Captain Henry Douglas | Price, Major C W. M. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Kinloch-Cooke, sir Clement | Radford, E. A. | Waddington, R. |
| Knox, Sir Alfred | Raine, W. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Ramsden, E. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Remer, J. R. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Loder, J. de V. | Remnant, Sir James | Wells, S. R. |
| Looker, Herbert William | Rentoul, G. S. | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Lord, Walter Greaves- | Rice, Sir Frederick | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Lynn, Sir Robert J. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Rye, F. G. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Salmon, Major I. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Withers, John James |
| Macintyre, Ian | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Womersley, W. J. |
| McLean, Major A. | Sandeman, A. Stewart | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Macmillan, Captain H. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) |
| McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Macquisten, F A | Savery, S. S. | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| MacRobert, Alexander M. | Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverpl, Exchange) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) | |
| Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mason, Lieut. Col. Glyn K. | Shepperson, E. W. | Major Cope and Captain Margesson. |
§ Mr. HARRISI beg to move, in page 10, line 6, after the word "areas," to insert the words "where conditions are comparable."
I move this Amendment on behalf of the London County Council. I appreciate the diffidence of the Minister in regard to the acceptance of the word "similar." In this Amendment the words are quite clear, so clear that "he who runs may read." Any intelligent person, including the President of the Board of Education, must clearly understand what is meant by "comparable" authorities. They should be limited to those places where the conditions are comparable. Speaking on behalf of the London County Council, I would very much like the Minister to take this opportunity of satisfying that great
§ authority, which has loyally tried to cooperate with him in his work for economy. It is the greatest education authority in the country. It is not enough for them, and it does not satisfy me, for the Noble Lord to talk gaily of moving Amendments in another place. In another place there are very few people who understand education. The members of this Committee do understand it. We are entitled to claim that these words should be accepted as the minimum concession to the right and proper demand of the London County Council.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 138; Noes, 261.
1117| Division No. 179.] | AYES. | [7.45 p.m. |
| Adamson, Ht. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Briant, Frank |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Barnes, A. | Broad, F. A. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Barr, J. | Bromley, J. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Batey, Joseph | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) |
| Buchanan, G. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Buxton, Fit. Hon. Noel | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Cape, Thomas | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Smillie, Robert |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Smith Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Clowes, S. | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kennedy, T. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Clynes, Ht. Hon. John R. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Kenyon, Barnet | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Connolly, M. | Kirkwood, D. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cove, W. G. | Lee, F. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lindley, F. W. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Livingstone, A. M. | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Dennison, R. | Lowth, T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Duckworth, John | Lunn, William | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Duncan, C. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| England, Colonel A. | Mackinder, W. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Fenby, T. D. | March, S. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Forrest, W. | Montague, Frederick | Thurtle, E. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Morris, R. H. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Gillett, George M. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, North) | Townend, A. E. |
| Gosling, Harry | Murnin, H. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Naylor, T. E. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Graham, RI. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Oliver, George Harold | Viant, S. P. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Owen, Major G. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Palin, John Henry | Warne, G. H. |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Paling, W. | Watson, W. M. (Duntermilne) |
| Groves, T. | Parkinson. John Allen (Wigan) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Westwood, J. |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark. N.) | Potts, John S. | Whiteley, W. |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Riley, Ben | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Harney, E. A. | Ritson, J. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Robinson. Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hayday, Arthur | Rose, Frank H. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Hayes, John Henry | Sakiatvala, Shapurji | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Scrymgeour, E. | Windsor, Walter |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sexton, James | Wright, W. |
| Hirst, G. H. | Shiels, Dr. Drummond | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Mr. Percy Harris and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.) |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) | Everard, W. Lindsay |
| Albery, Irving James | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Faile, Sir Bertram G. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby) | Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J.A. (Birm.,W.) | Fermoy, Lord |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Fielden, E. B. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Chapman, Sir S. | Ford, Sir P. J. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Christie, J. A. | Foster, Sir Harry S. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Frece, Sir Walter de |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Clarry, Reginald George | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. |
| Balniel, Lord | Clayton, G. C. | Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Conway. Sir W. Martin | Galbraith, J. F. W. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Cope, Major William | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Beamish, Captain T. P. H. | Couper, J. B. | Gates, Percy |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton |
| Bennett, A. J. | Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. | Gee, Captain R. |
| Bethel, A. | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Goff, Sir Park |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Greene, W. P. Crawford |
| Brass, Captain W. | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Grotrian, H. Brent |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Dalkeith, Earl of | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Davidson,J, (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Davies, Maj. Geo.F. (Somerset,Yeovil) | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Dawson, Sir Philip | Harland, A. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Dixey, A. C. | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) |
| Burman, J. B. | Drewe, C. | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hartington, Marquess of |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Elliot, Captain Walter E. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Elveden, viscount | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Hawke, John Anthony | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Makins, Brigadier-General E | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Hann, Sir Sydney H. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Herbert, S. (York, N. R-.Scar. & Wh'by) | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Hilton, Cecil | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Holland, Sir Arthur | Morrison, H. (Witts, Salisbury) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Strickland, Sir Gerald |
| Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Murchison, C. K. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Neville, R. J. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Howard, Captain Hon. Donald | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M (Hackney, N). | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Tasker, Major R. Inigo |
| Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Oakley, T. | Templeton, W. P. |
| Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Hurd, Percy A. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Thompson, Luke (Sutherland) |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S. | Perring, Sir William George | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Jacob, A. E. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Pielou, D. P. | Waddington, R. |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Preston, William | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston on-Hull) |
| Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Price, Major C. W. M. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Radford, E. A. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Raine, W. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| King, Captain Henry Douglas | Ramsden, E. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper | Wells, S. R. |
| Knox, Sir Alfred | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Lane, J. Q. | Remer, J. R. | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple |
| Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Remnant, Sir James | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Rentoul, G. S. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Loder, J. de V. | Rice, Sir Frederick | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Looker. Herbert William | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Lord, Walter Greaves- | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Lucas-Tooth. Sir Hugh Vere | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Withers, John James |
| Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Rye, F. G. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Lynn, Sir R. J. | Salmon, Major I. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Sandeman, A. Stewart | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| MacIntyre, Ian | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Wragg, Herbert |
| McLean, Major A. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Macmillan. Captain H. | Savery, S. S. | |
| McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Macquisten, F. A. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) | Sir Harry Barnston and Captain Margesson. |
§ Mr. JAMES HUDSONI beg to move, in page 10. line 8, at the end, to insert the words
Provided that the Board shall cause to be laid before Parliament a report indicating in each case the expenditure of any authority, proposed or incurred, which the Board have refused to recognise for the purpose of Parliamentary grants under this sub-section.I move this Amendment formally.
§ Sir J. SIMONI have no desire to prolong the business more than we can help, but I must say I think this Amendment is one of importance, and, though it is quite natural that my hon. Friend should have moved it formally, it really is an Amendment which requires a brief explanation. As I understand it, even though the President of the Board of Education exercises the power referred to in the Clause, and to that extent refuses 1118 to make payments to local education authorities, there is no provision by which there will be any public statement of what has been done, and there will be no means, therefore, given to other local education authorities to know what are the sort of cases in which the authorities are likely to incur the veto of the right hon. Gentleman. If the President of the Board of Education is going to exercise the powers given in this Clause and is going to say to a given education authority, "I know you may have expected that I would pay up to 50 per cent. of your expenditure, but I have cut down the payments and altered them, and those are my reasons," surely we ought to have in the Bill some provision which makes sure that what he is doing is, at any rate, available for the information of other local authorities.
1119 There is a second reason why that should be so. I apologise to the Committee for referring them to other Acts of Parliament, but this is a, very complicated Measure, and I can summarise it quite clearly. Section 118 of the Education Act, 1921, which is referred to here, does itself make a corresponding provision where the Board of Education makes a grant from public funds to local education authorities. In the first instance, it makes a payment that is called a "substantive grant," and that is the result of a rather elaborate calculation. It is 36s. per child; it is 60 per cent. of the amount paid in salaries to teachers, and so forth. The President of the Board of Education is able in that way to arrive at a composite grant as distinguished from a "block grant," if you use the words in their proper sense. It is a complete mis-use of words to talk about a block grant as though it was something which is contrasted with a percentage grant. Properly speaking, a block grant is not to be contrasted with a percentage grant. This new-fangled use of the word, as though a block grant was the opposite of a percentage grant, is very confusing and unfortunate. When you have built up the substantive grant, it remains to be seen whether there remains something more to pay, because you have not yet paid 50 per cent. of the net authorised expenditure, and that addition is usually called the "deficiency grant."
But under the present law, if there is a local authority which has for some reason or other rendered itself liable to the loss of some portion of this substantive grant—supposing it has failed to obey the regulations of the central authority, supposing it happens, as happened some years ago, that a particular authority is fined£10,000 because it did not reduce the size of its classes—then Section 118 provides that you must put upon the Table of the House a Report which shows any case in which there has been a loss of grants by so much as£500. On those two grounds, think this Amendment really ought to be made. It ought to be made, first of all, because otherwise, if the President of the Board of Education is going to exercise this power in the case of one particular authority, the other authorities will not know what it is that the 1120 Minister approves of and what it is that he disapproves of, and will not be able to avoid falling into a similar difficulty. Secondly, the Amendment ought to be made, because it is exactly in line with what the law at present provides, and that is that the President of the Board of Education has to lay on the Table of the House a Report which shows every authority which has lost its grant by so much as£500. If a proposal of this sort— not a party proposal, but a proposal which is directed to efficient educational administration—is simply to be given the go-by and is simply to be rolled over by a majority, then we shall have reduced the proceedings of this Committee to a farce.
§ Lord E. PERCYI must ask the Committee to reject this Amendment. At present, when a local authority is fined for failure to comply with the Regulations, a report has to be laid before Parliament. Under this proposal, the Board of Education would have to lay a report before Parliament — whenever a local authority came up and said, "We want to provide for doubling the size of our playgrounds," and the Board said, "No, we do not think we can sanction that."
§ 8. 0 P.M.
§ Sir J. SIMONI hope the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but with great respect, if I understand this rightly, it has nothing in the world to do with asking the Board whether it will or will not authorise a particular expenditure. It has to do with a perfectly different case, where the local authority asks for its 50 per cent. in respect of expenditure which is recognised, and is told that it cannot have it.
§ Lord E. PERCYI think the right hon. Gentleman is wrong. In the matter of educational administration there is no distinction between the two things. The procedure in the two cases is the same, and the effect of this Amendment would really be that any Board of Education or any President of the Board would have to be constantly laying before Parliament week by week a large series of disallowances to local authorities. Local authorities know that this is not really a practicable proposition.
§ Mr. HARRISWith great respect, it only applies to the new powers which 1121 the right hon. Gentleman is seeking under the Clause. The old powers go on just as before just as before, uninterfered with. We want to have these cases laid before the House so that the authorities can have a chance of having their grievances ven-
§ tilated in the proper place that is, before the House of Commons.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 134; Noes, 256.
1123| Division No. 180.] | AYES. | [8.4 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Ammon, Charles George | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hirst, G. H. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Barr, J. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Smillie, Robert |
| Batey, Joseph | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Briant, Frank | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Broad, F. A. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Buchanan, G. | Kelly, W. T. | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Kennedy, T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Cape, Thomas | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kenyon, Barnet | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Clowes, S. | Kirkwood, D. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lee, F. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lindley, F. W. | Thorne, w. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Livingstone, A. M. | Thurtle, E. |
| Connolly, M. | Lowth, T. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Cove, W. G. | Lunn, William | Townend, A. E. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Ab'ravon) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C, P. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Mackinder, W. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Dennison, R. | March, S. | Viant, S. P. |
| Duckworth, John | Montague, Frederick | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Duncan, C. | Morris, R. H. | Warne, G. H. |
| Fenby, T. D. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Forrest, W. | Murnin, H. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Oliver, George Harold | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Gillett, George M. | Owen, Major G. | Westwood, J. |
| Gosling, Harry | Palin, John Henry | Whiteley, W. |
| Graham. D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Paling, W. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Groves. T. | Potts, John S. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Riley, Ben | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Ritson, J. | Windsor, Walter |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) | Wright, W. |
| Hail, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Rose, Frank H. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Saklatvala, Shapurji | |
| Harris, Percy A. | Scrymgeour, E. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Sexton, James | Mr. Hayes and Mr. Barnes. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Shiels, Dr. Drummond | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Blades, Sir George Rowland | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Chapman, Sir S. |
| Albery, Irving James | Brass, Captain W. | Christie, J. A. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, w. Derby) | Briggs, J. Harold | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Briscoe, Richard George | Clarry, Reginald George |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Clayton, G. C. |
| Apsley, Lord | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Cobb, Sir Cyril |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Couper, J. B. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.I Berks, Newb'y) | Courtauld, Major J. S. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Buckingham, Sir H. | Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. |
| Balniel, Lord | Bull, Rt. Hot Sir William James | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M, | Burman, J. B. | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Burton, Colonel H. W. | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Crookshank, Col. C. de w. (Berwick) |
| Beamish. Captain T. P. H. | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey. Ga'nsbro) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Campbell, E, T. | Curzon, Captain Viscount |
| Bennett, A. I. | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Bethel, A. | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt, R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Davies, Dr. Vernon |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Chadwick, sir Robert Burton | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Hume, Sir G. H. | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Davison, Sir W H. (Kensington, S.) | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y. Ch'ts'y) |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Hurd, Percy A. | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Dixey, A. C. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Drewe, C. | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S. | Rye, F. G. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Jacob, A. E. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Elliot, Captain Walter E. | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Ellis, Ft. G. | Jephcott, A. R. | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Elveden, viscount | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| England, Colonel A. | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Savery, S. S. |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Lamb, J. Q. | Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) |
| Faile, Sir Bertram G. | Loder, J. de V. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Fermoy, Lord | Looker, Herbert William | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Fielden, E. B. | Lord, Walter Greaves- | Skelton, A. N. |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Lynn, Sir R. J. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.) |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | MacIntyre, Ian | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Gates, Percy | McLean, Major A. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Macmillan, Captain H. | Strickland, Sir Gerald |
| Gee, Captain R. | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Macquisten, F. A, | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Mac Robert, Alexander M. | Sueter. Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Goff, Sir Park | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel- | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Tasker, Major R. Inigo |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Templeton, W. P. |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Waddington, R. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Murchison, C. K. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Neville, R. J. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Wells, S. R. |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W.G. (Ptrsfld.) | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Henderson, Capt. R.R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Perring, sir William George | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Withers, John James |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Pielou, D. P. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Hilton, Cecil | Preston, William | Womersley, W. J. |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Price, Major C. W. M. | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Radford. E. A. | Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) |
| Holland, Sir Arthur | Raine, W. | Wragg Herbert |
| Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nut.) | Ramsden, E. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper | |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Rees, Sir Beddoe, | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) | Major Cope and Captain Margesson. |
| Howard, Captain Hon. Donald | Renter, J. R. | |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N). | Remnant, Sir James |
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
§ The CHAIRMANThe next Amendment in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) is covered, and I understand he does not wish to move his second Amendment. Does he wish to move his third Amendment?
§ Sir J. SIMONI beg to move, in page 10, line 9, to leave out Sub-section (2).
I have made inquiry about this Amendment to leave out Sub-section (2). I do not propose to put the House to the 1124 trouble of a Division, but. I wish to move it because it must not be supposed that there is not a great deal of feeling against Sub-section (2) in some quarters of the country. At any rate some of my friends feel that there are arguments against it, and though I do not propose to put the House to the trouble of a Division I wish to move it.
§ Mr. WALLHEADI wish to put a point of order with regard to the last Division. At first, you, Sir, declared 1125 that the "Ayes" had it, and then you reversed your decision, and said that the "Noes" had it. I should like to ask, on a point of Order, whether it is competent for the Chair to reverse its decision, and whether, having declarer? that the "Ayes" had it, it is competent to say that the "Noes" had it?
§ The CHAIRMANThat has frequently happened, and it has always been the practice of the House to allow a lapsus linguæ
§ Sir J. SIMONI beg to move, in page 10, line 28, at the end, to insert the words
This Part of this Act may be cited as The Education Act, 1926, and shall be considered as one with the Education Acts, 1870 to 1918, and the Education Acts, 1921 and 1923, and those Acts and this Part of this Act may be cited together as the Education Acts, 1870 to 1926.I am sure the Committee will be glad to know that this is the last Amendment I have to move. I sympathise with them very much, and 1 am just as pleased about it as they are. At the same time, it is a matter which, I submit, should be considered hi the Committee. If hon. Members will be good enough to look at Part 1 of the Bill, headed "National Health Insurance," they will see that Part 1 contains, as it ought to contain, a provision, in Clause 7, to the effect that that Part of the Act may be cited as the National Health Insurance Act, 1926. Whether by accident or by design, the Education Part of this Bill contains no similar label. That is, in fact, inconvenient, because, if you are going to make a collection of the education law of the country, it is the proper way to draft this or any other Act of Parliament to say that the Education Part, of the Act goes into Education Statutory Code, and it should be described as such.That would be a good reason for putting in this Clause if it has been omitted by accident, but if, on the other hand, this label has been omitted by design, I desire to point out what the reason for that is. The reason is that this Part of this Economy Bill is the Conservative contribution to the cause of education. There is an Education Act of 1870, which will always go down in history as the work of Mr. Forster, and there is 1126 an Education Act of 1918, which will go down as the work of Mr. Fisher, but I venture to think that, if it is not an accident that this label has been left out, and if it has been left out by design and on purpose, it is because the Noble Lord in his heart is utterly ashamed that this is the contribution which he, as the head of the Board of Education in the Conservative Government, is able to make to the statute law of this country.
§ Lord E. PERCYThe right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) did not give quite a full account of the treatment of this subject in this Bill. It is true that in Part I there is a Clause to this effect, as he said. It is also true that Part II, which deals with Unemployment Insurance, has no such Clause. Part III again has got such a Clause, but the rest of the Bill has not. I think that is a sufficient answer to the insinuations in regard to a deep and dark design to omit such a Clause in Part IV. I refrain from asking whether there was a deep and dark design in the drafting of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment. He has referred proudly to the Acts of 1870 and 1918, but I am informed by my legal advisers that those Acts are entirely superseded and have no relation whatever to this Bill. I think a. citation Clause is put in a Bill which makes a solid and substantial change in the existing law, and the reason why it is not inserted here is that this is intended to be honestly declaratory and is not a change in the law. I cannot accept the Amendment, and I hope we may now come to a decision on the subject.
§ Sir J. SIMONI cannot profess to be satisfied, though I accept the correction about the Act of 1870. It is true that, like the Act of 1902, it has all been scrapped and is represented now by, I think, the Act of 1921. I do not propose to put the Committee to a Division, although I must be allowed respectfully to say that, while I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his invariable good temper, I wish the excellence of his explanations was as good.
§ Mr. STEPHENI am sorry the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) is not going to press his, Amendment to a Division, and I am also sorry that the Noble Lord the. Minister of Education has not been prepared to 1127 accept this Amendment. I only want to point out what a great opportunity the Noble Lord is missing. Here is this tremendously beneficial change in the educational system of the country owing to the efforts of the Noble Lord in this Economy Bill, and there is here an opportunity for himself to be associated with those changes, but he is letting this opportunity slip. I would suggest to him that he might still consider that in another place this Amendment should be accepted. I do not think there is any suggestion that we are anxious to put it in now in order that we might have an
§ opportunity of discussing the Bill on Report. It is only our desire that the fair fame of the Noble Lord should be connected with this Bill that is responsible for our disappointment that he has not eagerly seized upon the great opportunity that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Specs Valley presented to him.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 241; Noes, 132.
1129| Division No. 181.] | AYES. | [8.25 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) |
| Albery, Irving James | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Howard, Captain Hon, Donald |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S. | Dawson, Sir Philip | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M, (H[...]ckney, N). |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K, | Dixey, A. C. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) |
| Apsley, Lord | Drewe. C. | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer |
| Astor, Viscountess | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hurd, Percy A. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Ellis, R. G. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Balniel, Lord | Elveden, Viscount | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M) | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Jacob, A. E. |
| Beamish, Captain T. P. H. | Everard, W. Lindsay | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Fermoy, Lord | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) |
| Bethel, A. | Finburgh, S. | Kindersley, Major Guy M. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Ford, Sir P. J. | King, Captain Henry Douglas |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Frece, Sir Walter de | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Brass, Captain W. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Loder, J. de V. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Gadie, Lieut,-Col. Anthony | Looker. Herbert William |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Ganzoni, Sir John. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Brocklebank. C. E. R. | Gates, Percy | Lynn, Sir B. J. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Macdonald, Capt. p. D. (I of W.) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Goff, Sir Park | MacIntyre, Ian |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | McLean, Major A. |
| Burman, J. B. | Greene, W. p. Crawford | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Grotrian, H. Brent | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester. City) | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Hammersley, S. S. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) | Harmsworth. Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Christie, J. A. | Hartington, Marquess of | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T, C. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Morden, Colonel Walter Grant |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Clayton. G. C. | Haslam, Henry C. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hawke, John Anthony | Murchison, C. K. |
| Cope, Major William | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Neville, R. J. |
| Couper, J. B. | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Heneage. Lieut. -Col. Arthur P. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Herbert, S. (York, N. [...] Scar. & Wh'by) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Hills, Major John Waller | Perring, Sir William George |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Hilton, Cecil | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Pielou, D. P. |
| Preston, William | Skelton, A. N. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Price, Major C. W. M. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Radford, E. A. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Raine, W. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Ramsden, E. | Sprot, Sir Alexander | Wells, S. R. |
| Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | White Lieut. Colonel G. Dairymple |
| Remnant, Sir James | Stanley, Hon. U. F. G. (Westm'eland) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Rice, Sir Frederick | Steel, Major Samuel Strang | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Stott, Lieut-Colonel W. H. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford. Lichfield) |
| Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. | Strickland, Sir Gerald | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Stuart, Crichten-, Lord C. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Rye, F. G. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Withers, John James |
| Salmon, Major I. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Womersley, W. J. |
| Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Tasker, Major R. Inigo | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) |
| Sandeman, A. Stewart | Templeton, W. P. | Wood, Sir S. Hill (High Peak) |
| Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Savory, S. S. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell. | |
| Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) | Tinne, J. A. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Major Sir Harry Barnston and Captain Viscount Curzon. |
| Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Waddington, R. | |
| Shepperson, E. W. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbor') | Hayday, Arthur | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hayes, John Henry | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Smillie, Robert |
| Barr, J. | Hirst, G. H. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hore-Belisha, Lesile | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Briant, Frank | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Broad, F. A. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Kelly, W. T. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Cape, Thomas | Kennedy, T. | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Thomson, Trevelvan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Clowes, S. | Lee, F. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lindley, F. W. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Livingstone, A. M. | Thurtle, E. |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Lowth, T. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Connolly, M. | Lunn, William | Townend, A. E. |
| Cove, W. G | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Varley, Frank B. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Mackinder, W. | Viant, S. P. |
| Dennison, R. | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Duckworth, John | March, S. | Warne, G. H. |
| Duncan, C. | Montague, Frederick | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| England, Colonel A. | Morris, R. H. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Fenny, T. D. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Forrest, W. | Murnin, H, | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Oliver, George Harold | Westwood, J. |
| Gillett, George M. | Owen, Major G. | Whiteley, W. |
| Gosling, Harry | Palin, John Henry | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Paling, W. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Grenfell. D. R. (Glamorgan) | Potts, John S. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Groves, T. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Riley, Ben | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Ritson, J. | Windsor, Walter |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Rose, Frank H. | Wright, W. |
| Hall, F, (York, W. R., Normanton) | Saklatvala, Shapurji | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Scrymgeour, E. | |
| Hamilton, sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Sexton, James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Harris, Percy A. | Shiels, Dr. Drummond | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. A. Barnes. |
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.