HC Deb 15 April 1926 vol 194 cc601-11

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. R. DAVIES

We did not table any Amendments to Clause 7, because we understand that in the main the Clause is consequential on the other Clause of the Measure; but there are one or two questions I desire to put to the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Measure; and if he will be good enough to follow me I feel sure we shall get much enlightenment on these very important points which I am going to raise. Sub-section (1) gives the new Title of this Measure when it becomes an Act of Parliament. I do not know when that will be. The progress already made does not seem to suggest that it will be an Act of Parliament to-morrow morning at any rate.

Sub-section (2) says: This part of this Act shall not except as hereinafter provided apply to Northern Ireland. That is to say the Act will not apply to Northern Ireland although Northern Ireland is, I understand, within this country for all other purposes connected with the National Health Insurance Acts. It will be interesting to learn how it comes about that Northern Ireland is not to be included when, in fact, there are approved societies in this country with their head offices in London and elsewhere which have several branches in Northern Ireland.

The Sub-section goes on to say: Provided that if provision substantially corresponding to the provision contained in this Part of this Act for making good out of the Reserve Suspense Fund deficiencies due to the provisions of this Part of this Act is made by the Parliament of Northern Ireland, His Majesty may by Order in Council apply for the purpose of deficiencies in connection with approved societies or branches of approved societies in Northern Ireland so much of the said Section as relates to the crediting of amounts out of the Central Fund. I have been accustomed for some time now to reading English literature and, in fact, I have been accustomed, too, to reading speeches of hon. Members opposite, which are fairly good literature or occasions. I told the hon. Gentleman a few moments ago that some of his answers to my questions were very interesting and very informative, but not always intelligent. I feel sure the answers he will give to my questions on this occasion will be all three—informative, intelligent and interesting. The trouble is that we have never had the whole truth from this Government at any time. I put a question the other day to the Minister of Health and said that my complaint against the Government was not that they were telling some truth, but that they were only telling half the truth about this Bill; and a half the truth is worse than a deliberate falsehood. I do not understand the words I have read to the Committee, and I shall be very much surprised if the draftsman himself understands them; and if the draftsman and myself cannot understand them, how can the hon. Gentleman understand the Clause?

Mr. N. MACLEAN

On a point of Order, I understand, Mr. Hope, that earlier in the evening exception was taken and notice was given of your conduct in the Chair. I wish to ask whether it is the custom in this House, where the impartial judgment of the occupant of the Chair is called in question, more particularly when his impartiality has been challenged by the Leader of the Opposition, to come back into the Chair until the House has had an opportunity of discussing his conduct and thereby delivering a decision upon the matter.

The CHAIRMAN

My duty is to take the Chair, and nothing that has occurred relieves me from that duty.

Mr. MACLEAN

Where the official Opposition has given notice of a Resolution challenging the impartiality of the occupant of the Chair, at any rate until the House has had that opportunity, it is surely not becoming on the part of the Chairman to come back to take the Chair on the same day that the challenge was made and to conduct affairs relating to the same business as that upon which the impartiality was challenged.

The CHAIRMAN

I am rather grateful to the hon. Member for suggesting a way to me of spending a more normal night than the last, but I am afraid nothing he has set forth absolves me from my duty to take the Chair.

Mr. DAVIES

I feel sure the Committee was following me very well in this Chinese puzzle of finance before that interruption. This is not, as I said, good literature, and I am sure now it is not good law. It could not be good law coming from this Government. I was going to say that there are in this country several hundred approved societies, with a membership in Northern Ireland. without of course a branch organisation which is approved separately for Northern Ireland. Are we going to get from Northern Ireland a quid pro quo—I think I am using the correct words—in connection with the transfer of these reserve funds? The position is this: We shall be called upon under this Clause to transfer moneys from the Central Fund, under the control of the Treasury of tins country, to, some funds either existing or supposed to exist in Northern Ireland. I think it is only fair, therefore, to ask how much more money we are going to give to Northern Ireland. We have sent a great: deal of money to that part of the country already, and I feel sure the insured population will demand information on this point from the Government. I never disturb the House very much except when it comes to problems of social and industrial legislation, in which I am particularly interested. I have done my very best to improve this Measure. I have been partly instrumental in putting on the Order Paper a very large number indeed of Amendments which, if they were all accepted, would bring credit upon this Government, upon the Opposition and upon this House; but the Government has absolutely declined to accept even a comma from the Opposition. I remember now that last evening, or was it this morning, the Minister of Health himself did accept a slight Amendment from an hon. Member below the Gangway, but we do not know whether it was a gift to the insured population or to those persons paying to the Army and Navy insurance fund or not.

The second question I desire to put is this. How much money is there to be transferred per annum per insured person from the funds of the approved societies of this country to Northern Ireland, and vice versa? It would not, I think, be unfair to ask how many persons who are insured under the State insurance scheme ordinarily proceed from this country to Northern Ireland in a year. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary, with his usual courtesy, will be able to reply; and if it is necessary that, he should enlighten himself on the points raised, perhaps he will be able to quote from the Report of the actuaries and the Royal Commission, so that we may have a clear understanding of what the words in this Clause actually mean.

Sir K. WOOD

This Amendment does not raise the important issues which the hon. Member seems to suggest. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up !"] All that this Clause does as far as Subsection (2) is concerned, is to make certain provision in the event of the Government of Northern Ireland bringing in a Bill similar to this Bill so far as that country is concerned. May I remind the hon. Member and the Committee that the National Insurance Act, 1924, applies to Northern Ireland by Section 117. All the provisions of this Bill which we have been discussing so far affect Great Britain alone. If Northern Ireland desires to take steps similar to those which we are taking, they must of necessity do so by their own Bill. If the Government of Northern Ireland adopts a plan similar to the British plan for providing grants out of the Central Fund to assist societies—[HON. MEMBERS: "We cannot hear you!"]—we shall simply make an Order-in-Council to carry out that decision. This Clause does not raise the question of a transference from the Central Fund; it is a matter of administrative convenience.

Mr. THOMAS

This all sounds very innocent in the way the Parliamentary Secretary has explained it. His explanation would seem to convey the idea that this is another of those philanthropic efforts on the part of the Government to help the insured person, but it is significant to observe that this same Government, a few weeks ago, when they were dealing with unemployment insurance in Northern Ireland adopted an entirely different method from the one now dealt with in this Clause. Then, they came to the House and said, "Here is a deficit and unlike the English, Welsh or Scottish unemployed persons, who have to meet their own deficit, we will make a grant from the British Treasury for the aid of Northern Ireland." I suppose that this Clause is another illustration of the way in which the Economy Bill will work. I am interested to know how the matter will affect the members of my own union in Northern Ireland. If in Northern Ireland a Bill is to be introduced, I understand that the object of that Bill will be precisely the same as this Bill, to enable the Northern Ireland Government to do what the British Government has done.

Sir K. WOOD

If they so decide.

Mr. THOMAS

Why should they so decide? They have a much simpler method. They do not need to raid the funds of their approved societies. They can come to their friends on the Treasury Bench. That is what they did in regard to their unemployment insurance, when there was a deficit. When there is a deficit on the Unemployment Insurance Fund in this country, interest has to be paid on it. That is the English way of meeting a deficit. But in the case of Northern Ireland, they came to the Treasury for a grant. Now, the Parliamentary Secretary says that this simple Clause is such that if the Northern Ireland Government think fit, they can take the same course that has been adopted in the present Bill. There is no such possibility.

Sir K. WOOD

Yes.

Mr. THOMAS

There is a possibility? What is their quota?

Sir K. WOOD

The right hon. Gentleman asked me whether there was any possibility of the Northern Ireland Government taking action similar to that which we are taking. I say there is a possibility, but. I am not in a position to say what their final conclusions may be. In the event of their adopting the same principles as our Bill, they will do the same as we have done. If they come to some other conclusion, they will do differently.

Mr. THOMAS

The hon. Member has hinted that there is a possibility.

Sir K. WOOD

Yes.

Mr. THOMAS

There is a possibility of Northern Ireland doing the same as the British Government? The Northern Ireland Government, which has been in existence since 1920, may, in order to meet their difficulties, do as the British Government have done. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has now arrived. I presume that he has come in to hear what we have been saying about him in different parts of to-day.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

Nothing to his credit.

Mr. THOMAS

We have just had an explanation of this Clause, which presupposes that the Northern Ireland Government may follow the example of the British Government and raid the Insurance Fund, and this Clause, we are told, has been put in this Bill to encourage them to do it, so that there will be consistency. That is the explanation we have had from the Parliamentary Secretary. I have pointed out that, if that be their intentien, it is totally unnecessary, inasmuch as when they had a deficit on their Unemployment Insurance Fund they came to the British Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave them a grant, and he has introduced this Bill to help to make up the deficit. It is because this Clause is not as innocent as it looks that we shall oppose it.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 216; Noes, 128.

Division No. 158.] AYES. [9.56 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, Bt. Hon. Sir James T. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Alexander, Sir Win. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Bullock, Captain M. Curzon, Captain Viscount
Apsley, Lord Burgoyne, Lieut-Colonel Sir Alan Dalkeith, Earl of
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Burman, J. B. Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover) Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Davies, Dr, Vernon
Astor, Viscountess Burton, Colonel H. W. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)
Atkinson, C. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Campbell, E. T. Edmondson, Major A. J.
Balniel, Lord Cassels, J. D. Elliot, Captain Walter E.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Ellis, R. G.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.) Elveden, Viscount.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Bethel, A. Chapman, Sir S. Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Batterton, Henry B. Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Fanshawe, Commander G. D.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Finburgh, S.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Blundell, F, N. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W Colfox, Major Win. Phillips Galbraith, J. F. W.
Brassey, Sir Leonard Cope, Major William Ganzoni, Sir John
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Couper, J. B. Gates, Percy.
Briscoe, Richard George Courthope, Lieut.-Col. sir George L. Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Brittain, Sir Harry Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Goff, Sir Park
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Grace, John
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E) MacIntyre, Ian Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Gretton, Colonel John McLean, Major A. Sanderson, Sir Frank
Grotrian, H. Brent Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D
Guinness, Bt. Hon. Walter E. McNeill. Rt. Hon. Ronald John Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l. Exchange)
Gunston, Captain D. W. Macquisten, F. A. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H. MacRobert, Alexander M. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb' y)
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel. Shepperson, E. W.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Makins, Brigadier-General E. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Harland, A. Malone, Major P. B. Skelton, A. N.
Harrison, G. J. C. Margesson, Capt. D. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Hartington, Marquess of Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Hasten, Henry C. Meller, R. J. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Hawke, John Anthony Merriman, F. B. Smithers, Waldron
Hoadlam, Lieut.-Colonel C M. Meyer, Sir Frank Sprot, Sir Alexander
Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'il, Henley) Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Willsden. E.)
Henderson. Lieut. Col. V. L. (Bootle) Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Stanley, Hon. O. F, G.(Westm'eland)
Henn, Sir Sydney H. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Morrison, H, (Wilts, Salisbury) Strickland, Sir Gerald
Hills, Major John Waller Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Ht. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Nelson, Sir Frank Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Holt, Captain H. P. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Hopkins, J. W. W. Nuttall, Ellis Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Oakley, T. Waddington, R.
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Penny, Frederick George Wallace, Captain D. E.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Ward. Lt.-Col. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Hume, Sir G. H. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Hurst, Gerald B. Pilcher, G. Wells, S. R.
Hiffe, Sir Edward M. Pilditch, Sir Philip White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Power, Sir John Cecil Williams, A. M, (Cornwall, Northern)
Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Bt. Hon. F. S. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Preston. William Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Jacob, A. E. Price, Major C. W. M. Winby, Colonel L. P.
Jephcott, A. R. Radford, E. A. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Ramsden, E. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Wise, Sir Fredric
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Remer, J. R. Withers, John James
King, Captain Henry Douglas Rice, Sir Frederick Wolmer, Viscount
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Womersley, W. J.
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Ropner, Major L. Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich)
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Luce, Maj. Gen. Sir Richard Harman Rye, F. G. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Lynn, Sir R. J. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Lord Stanley and Mr. F. C. Thomson.
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Sandeman, A. Stewart
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File. West) Gillett, George M. Lindley, F. W.
Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Gosling, Harry Lowth, T.
Ammon, Charles George Greenall, T. Lunn, William
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Barnes, A. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mackinder, W.
Barr, J. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) MacLaren, Andrew
Satey, Joseph Groves, T. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Grundy, T. W. MacNeill-Weir, L.
Broad, F. A. Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) March, S.
Bromfield, William Hall, F. (York. W. R., Normanton) Montague, Frederick
Bromley, J. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Murnin, H.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Harris, Percy A. Naylor, T. E.
Cape, Thomas Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Oliver, George Harold
Charleton, H. C. Hayday, Arthur Owen, Major G.
Cluse, W. S. Hayes, John Henry Palin, John Henry
Clynes, Right Hon. John R. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Paling, W.
Connolly, M. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Cove, W. G. Hirst, G. H. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Ponsonby, Arthur
Crawturd, H. E. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Potts, John S.
Davies, David (Montgomery) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Rees, Sir Beddoe
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Davies, B. J. (West Houghton) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Ritson, J.
Dennison, R. John, William (Rhondda, West) Rose, Frank H.
Duckworth, John Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Duncan, C. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Scrymgeour, E.
England, Colonel A. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sexton, James
Fenby, T. D. Kelly, W. T. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Forrest, W. Kennedy, T. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Kirkwood, D. Sitch, Charles H.
Gibbins, Joseph Lee, F. Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Smillie, Robert Thurtle, E. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Tinker, John Joseph Williams, David (Swansea. East)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Townend, A. E. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Snell, Harry Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Varley, F. B. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Viant, S. P. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Stamford, T. W. Wallhead, Richard C. Windsor, Walter
Stephen, Campbell Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Sullivan, Joseph Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhono[...])
Sutton, J. E. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Westwood, J. Mr. C. Edwards and Mr. Warne.
Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) Whiteloy, W.