HC Deb 15 April 1926 vol 194 cc583-601

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. RHYS DAVIES

Before we pass this Clause there are a few remarks I desire to make, and if the Parliamentary Secretary will give me his attention for a few moments I will try to explain to him the point upon which I desire information. If he will turn to Clause 6 he will find that Sub-section (3) reads as follows: Provision may be made by regulations for such variation of reserve values as appears necessary in consequence of the provisions of this part of this Act. The Parliamentary Secretary is familiar enough with national health insurance to know that the whole construction of this scheme depends on what are called reserve values. I am not sure whether my figures are correct in this connection, but I think when this scheme came into operation in 1912 there was a stipulated sum of money amounting to about £80,000,000 which was mere paper credit. The law provided that such credits should be wiped out from the income of the societies from year to year, and the time will, of course, ultimately arrive when these paper credits will be wiped out. To prove that I am right in the assumption that reserve values are the fundamental basis of this scheme, let me read to the Committee what the Actuarial Committee, through the Royal Commission, said on this important subject. As a matter of fact, it is upon the recommendations of the Actuarial Committee that the Royal Commission itself proceeded to make their recommendations. This is what they say: Before proceeding to this stage we think it necessary to refer to certain considerations which arise out of the peculiar conditions governing the finance of the system of National Health Insurance. The system is operated through a large number of financially independent or semi-independent units, either societies or branches of societies, and these units differ materially from one another in their experience in respect of the greater number of the factors enumerated above. And the next are the important words which I desire to emphasise: The contributions are not, however, equated to the varying risks undertaken by the separate units; they are uniform in amount for all insured persons of each sex, and the reserve values, representing the estimated loss arising from the acceptance of persons of higher ages than sixteen at the rate of contribution appropriate to that age, are likewise uniform in amount for all persons of the same age and sex. I agree with the Government. Committee of Actuaries, and would pay a greater tribute to the capacity of this Committee than to the body of Actuaries whose names are attached to the other document. I must refer to a further important point in connection with these reserve values and call the attention of the Committee to Clause 66 of the Consolidated Act, 1924. In order to get a proper view of this problem, we must get our perspective correctly set. As the preacher says, "we must have the historical setting in order so as to see all the points in this connection." Let us see what Section 66 of the Act of 1924 provides. It says: On a person of the age of seventeen or upwards joining an approved society for the purposes of this Act there shall he credited to the society a capital sum (in this Act referred to as a 'reserve value') calculated in accordance with tables prepared by the Minister, showing that capital sums respectively required in respect of members entering into insurance at ages over sixteen to meet the estimated loss, if any, arising through the acceptance by an approved society of those persons … We on this side of the House have objected, and in fact all persons connected with the administration of the health insurance scheme, have objected continuously, to government by regulations. Sub-section (3) makes provision whereby new regulations shall be issued in respect of reserve values. Will the Parliamentary Secretary be good enough to explain to the Committee what these regulations are likely to be? For instance, will they upset the ordinary, normal way of dealing with reserve values? There is a way of assessing reserve values. There was a point, in this connection, in Clause 5, with which we have just dealt. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to inform me whether the Sub-section to which I now refer will cover the case of Sub-section (3) of Clause 5 in respect of which I have not had any reply. The hon. Gentleman is always very courteous in giving replies. They are not always satisfactory or intelligent replies, but at any rate the hon. Gentleman does his best to give us some sort of reply. Although his replies have not always been interesting or intelligent, they have at any rate conveyed some kind of information to persons who are not well informed on these subjects.

Are we securing within this small subsection, and sub-section (3) of Clause 5, a new method of dealing with reserve values? I always thought that it was impossible to assess the reserve value of an assured person except in respect of the amount of contributions paid for him, or his age on entering into insurance. I gather that these Regulations are likely to create a. new basis of assessment. It is a very intricate matter. Only those who administer the funds of approved societies know what reserve values mean. They are the creation of pure paper credits. That is in harmony with Tory morality in finance—to create purely fictitious paper credit without anything to back it. Throughout this Bill, in every Clause, there is concealed something very ominous so far as the approved societies are concerned. I understand that it is proposed here to assess the value of a reserve upon the additional benefits that are to be paid to persons entering approved societies.

Take the case of a man who leaves the Army and Navy insurance fund and joins an approved society. I understand that regulations will be issued creating a reserve value in respect of that individual. How is the reserve value in that case to be assessed unless it be upon either the age of the person or the benefits that he is likely to receive? The Parliamentary Secretary is a master of all these intricate problems. He has explained some of them to us until they are as clear as daylight. I could, however, take him to task, though, as I would not be in order, I would be closured. The Tory mind is a wooden mind. It cannot feel. The Labour party is the party of to-morrow morning and as such is looking to the future. The Tory party is the party of yesterday. But I will go back to reserve values. The Tory party has no reserves; it plunders other people's reserves. Will the Parliamentary Secretary now explain this little item, included in a nice way in a pocket and concealed, as it were, but with some very big meaning in it for the approved societies?

Sir K. WOOD

I will do my best to answer the questions which the hon. Member has put with his usual ability and fairness. Clause 6, Sub-section (3), says: Provision may lie made by regulations for such variation of reserve values as appears necessary in consequence of the provisions of this part of this Act. The first question was whether this in any way affected Clause 5, Sub-section (3), which provides, Provision may be made by regulations for entitling men of the forces who before the commencement of this Act joined or thereafter join approved societies either during service or within the prescribed period after discharge to participate (subject to such conditions as may be prescribed), in additional benefits provided by those societies, and for prescribing special transfer values applicable to such men. The answer is that Clause 6, Sub-section (3), does not affect Clause 5, Sub-section (3). At present a man who transfers from the Army and Navy Fund to a society has to undergo a waiting period before he can qualify for additional benefit. There has been a considerable amount of complaint on account of that period of waiting. Because of the £400,000 which we propose to devote to the benefit of these men we shall now be able to make Regulations giving men on their transfer to societies immediate participation in additional benefits.

Mr. DAVIES

Will those Regulations be placed on the Table of the House for inspection?.

Sir K. WOOD

Yes, they will be laid, as are all other Regulations under the Act. I dare say the hon. Gentleman will recognise that what is proposed is a very valuable concession to the men concerned. It may be asked what is the reason for Sub-section (3) of Clause 6. If hon. Members look at paragraph 8 of the report of the Government Actuary they will find that owing to changes which are being made for the purposes of this Measure, such as the change of the State proportion from two-ninths to one-seventh, small variations of reserve values will be necessary. In the aggregate the change of basis will have little effect on the reserves, and the position of each society and branch will be dealt with separately in order to prevent inequalities as between one society and another. So far from being apprehensive regarding the approved societies, the hon. Member ought to realise that this Clause is inserted for their benefit, as hon. Members will see by reading the paragraph of the actuary's report to which I have referred. I agree with the hon. Member in the tribute which he has paid to the actuary, and he will see for himself that the actuary recommends that this Clause ought to be passed in order to protect the societies of the country. I conclude by reading the end of that paragraph because I think it is important. Alluding to the arrangements already made, the actuary says: In the aggregate, therefore, the existing benefit funds of the approved societies exclusive of surpluses … will be sufficient, with the contributions, to maintain the financial soundness of the system under the new conditions. The position in this respect will, however, be separately examined with reference to each approved society and branch … and provision is made by the Bill for any variations in the reserve value credits which may be found necessary on this examination. For the purpose of carrying out that recommendation of the actuary this Clause is being inserted, and this Regulation, like the other Regulations will be submitted to Parliament for approval. The hon. Member will then be able to satisfy himself that we have carried out the recommendations of the actuary.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

I am not sure that the explanation given by the hon. Gentleman—although fairly intelligent—is quite as clear as such an explanation might be. He says the Regulations under Clause 6, Sub-section (3) will not affect Clause 5, Sub-section (3), and he tells us that the Regulations will be laid on the Table—which he seems to regard as a concession for which we ought to be thankful. We have some experience of Regulations which were made under a recent Act of Parliament, and there is scarcely a single hon. Member who could, with any degree of confidence, give an interpretation as to how the Contributory Pensions Act will apply in any one of a dozen different cases. Unless we have some definite proof that the Regulations under this Clause are going to he more intelligible, then since they affect reserve values—whether those reserve values are fictitious paper credits or not—I shall not be satisfied to allow the Clause to pass unchallenged. The marginal note to this Clause is: Consequential Amendments of enactments relating to National Health Insurance and variation of reserve values. Those words create suspicion in my mind. In fact I am hostile to this Clause merely because it affects other Clauses which have already been passed, although they were bitterly contested by Members on these benches. If, by preventing this Clause from passing, we would destroy some parts of the Clauses already passed by the Government's huge majority I should feel I was doing my duty in holding up this Clause. There are other reasons, however, concerning the possible effect of Clause 6 on approved societies. The hon. Gentleman says the regulations will not affect regulations made under Clause 5, Sub-section (3). I do not see how regulations which are made as consequential amendments of previous enactments can fail to affect almost every Clause and Sub-section in the Bill. Recognising the intricate nature of the Bill, I am almost inclined to apologise to the hon. Gentleman for asking him to attempt to clarify this—almost the most complex Bill that ever came before the House of Commons, and one which has been designed specifically to mislead. Embedded in almost every Clause, paragraph and line of it, is some elusive phrase, and this Clause, innocent though it may appear, makes some of the other Clauses workable which fact in itself is sufficient to bring forth all the opposition to it that we can muster. There are no Amendments down to the Clause. It was recognised that if the bigger Clauses were carried there would be no possibility of changing this provision without the consent of the Government. We can, however, take this opportunity of expressing our resentment against the Bill, our hostility to it, and our suspicion, not only of this Clause, but of the whole Measure, and of those who prepared it. We are entitled to point out the consequential evils that are bound to arise from it, both to the approved societies and the individual members.

Mr. PALING

The Parliamentary Secretary in his usual suave manner assures us that this is quite a simple matter and that the regulations of which we are suspicious are designed to help rather than to hinder. Our experience of regulations under this Government has not been happy.

Mr. MACQUISTEN

Or most Governments.

Mr. PALING

Yes, or most Governments. I think the only exception would be the Labour Government, and it is because of that that we are suspicious. The same kind of argument that the hon. Gentleman has used in regard to this Clause has been used in regard to every previous Clause in this Bill. Every argument that has come from the Government Benches, with the exception of the speech of one hero, has been designed to prove to us that the whole trend of this Bill was in the direction of giving the 15,000,000 contributors something more than they had already got, and of trying to prove that the £2,800,000, the £1,900,000, the £200,000, I think, in Clause 4, and the £1,100,000 in Clause 5 were going to be taken away from the Funds, and that the people who contributed those Funds would be benefited because of the fact that someone had robbed them of something.

I would like to ask whether the approved societies and the people who will be affected by these regulations have been approached in any way whatever, whether they have any knowledge of what these regulations will be, of how they are likely to be interpreted, and of what they are put down in order to accomplish. Has even the Consultative Committee, about which we have had so much talk on this Bill, been approached on this question? Have they had any say in regard to these regulations? If the regulations are not already issued, will the Consultative Committee be approached before they are issued? The Parliamentary Secretary himself would be the last man in the world to expect us to take this without questioning it in view of what has already gone on, and I ask him if it is possible to give us some satisfaction in regard to these points. This Clause refers to regulations, and I think the Parliamentary Secretary said that the regulations under the last Clause were such as would permit men coming out of the Service Fund into the national insurance approved societies to take full advantage of the extra benefits that are paid. I would like to ask who is going to provide the extra funds that, I suppose, will be needed in order to provide the extra benefits immediately to the people coming out of the Services Fund when they join the approved societies.

On Clause 5 we have had no explanation of that, or I never heard it, and I sat in the House all the time. I was one of those unfortunate people who tried to get into the Debate, but was ruled out by the Closure which the Government are getting so adept, at using. One would imagine they were afraid of debate on this question, and I do not wonder, in view of the storm of protest that there is in the country against this business, that they seem to be using every hit of power they have got in order to stop this thing being discussed in full. I would like the hon. Gentleman to get up and tell us how much money it will need to give these extra benefits, how many people will be affected, who is finding the money, and whether the approved societies have had any say in the business. In regard to the Regulations that are suggested in Clause 6, I want to ask if the Parliamentary Secretary expects that we can be satisfied with an answer such as he has given, in view of the knowledge that we have, on these benches in particular, of the Regulations that have been issued in connection with the Unemployment Funds during the last 12 months. Hon. Members on this side have no reason to look with any sense of security on any Regulations that may emanate from the Government. Nearly every Regulation laid down by this Government has been designed to make the position of the people affected more difficult than it was before, and it is because of that that we are suspicious that the Regulations in this Clause, harmless and beneficial as they appear after the statement of the hon. Gentleman, will, when they are put into operation, place extra hardships and burdens on the insured contributors.

I should like, the hon. Gentleman, therefore, to tell us in the minutest detail all and everything that is being done, and, if it has not been done, to be man enough to admit that they have done nothing, and that they are going to lay down Regulations in just the manner that they choose to put them down, and also to admit that the Regulations will be on the same scale and designed to have the same effect as those that have been laid down previously by this Government. I want an answer to these things. Every Member on this side wants an answer. We have received shocking treatment in regard to the Closure, and in regard to Members who have been in charge of the Bill, such as we had on the last Clause, when the Minister lay in a somnolent condition most of the time, while arguments of the most important character were being advanced from these benches, and he did not deign to give any answer. The only answer that he deigned to give was to move the Closure. I suppose that that was much safer than giving an answer, and I think that under the circumstances he was probably wise, but the Under-Secretary, of course, is not quite that type of character. I am pretty sure he desires to give us all the information that could possibly be given, and it is because of that that I am asking him to get up and make the speech of his life.

Mr. STEPHEN

I want to take the opportunity of making a few comments in connection with this Clause. In the first place, I possibly might be allowed to congratulate the Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Health that we have come to a Clause on which there is not a great amount of controversy. [Interruption.] I do not know about a coalition with the Under-Secretary, as an hon. Friend of mine suggests. I would not contemplate such a thing, and I am quite sure that the Under-Secretary would not want anything like that either. Possibly he would prefer a coalition with the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), who made the interruption. With regard to Subsection (1), I do not think there is anything in that Sub-section which really calls for comment. The second Subsection is really consequential, although the words have been chosen, possibly, in the same elusive manner in which the previous Sub-section has been drawn, so that one is not sure that our simplicity has not been taken advantage of by the craft and cunning of this unprincipled Government which is in control at the present time. Looking at these two Subsections, there may not be anything con- cealed which would arouse great opposition, but this Government strikes me as being the sort of Government that would steal a worm from a blind hen, as previous discussions have shown in their treatment of soldiers, sailors, and airmen who have lost their health in the service of the country. But, coming to Sub-section (3), I believe that the Minister will be glad to give us a little more information with regard to that. It states that Provision may be made by regulations for such variation of reserve values as appears necessary in consequence of the provisions of this Part of this Act. We on these benches are very suspicious with regard to the Regulations. We have had a discussion here this week which shows there is a general suspicion on the part of Members of all parties in the House with regard to the Regulations. There was a Motion moved by the right hon. Gentleman, who represents me in one capacity in this House, in which he said that we in this country were tending towards Departmental control to far too great an extent, and that we did not want government by regulation for government by law. I believe that we are entitled to get a little more information with regard to these Regulations which are to be made in connection with the variation of reserve values as appears necessary in consequence of the provisions of this Part of this Act. I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary could tell us whether those Regulations will be laid on the Table. I would also like to know whether those Regulations are going to be drawn up by the Minister of Health, on the advice of the officials connected with the Department. Is the Minister of Health to be the individual who is to be responsible for drawing up those regulations? Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could indicate that to me right away.

Sir K. WOOD indicated assent.

Mr. STEPHEN

I am right in my supposition. I am very sorry we did not have the opportunity of getting that information a good deal before this, because I want to enter my protest, as I fail to see why the Minister of Health should issue those Regulations to the whole of the United Kingdom.

Sir K. WOOD

Not as far as Scotland is concerned.

9.0 P.M.

Mr. STEPHEN

I am sorry. I, possibly, took the Minister a little bit unawares by my question, and I do not want to press it unduly, seeing that he was courteous enough to respond to the invitation I made to him. I would like to suggest that we come here to a very grave constitutional question, because the Members in this House from my own country have taken occasion previously in the course of these Debates to complain about the way in which the Government have been treating Scotland in connection with these Clauses, and here we have in Sub-section (3) another illustration of the unfair manner in which we Scottish Members are being treated. There is not a representative of the Scottish Office on the Government Bench. When we raised the question on a previous occasion, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health in England was good enough to try to give us an answer. He answered a question I put to him relating to Sub-section (3, b) of Clause 2, which says: the maximum sums as respects the administration expenses of insurance committees and the expenses of the Board shall be such sums as may respectively he prescribed. I asked him who was to prescribe the sums, and he intimated to me that it was the Scottish Board of Health, and I myself afterwards was, unfortunately, not able to pursue it a little bit further, because the Minister, being in a hurry and somewhat nervous, closured a very important discussion. I notice that a junior member of the Government, the hon. and learned Member for South Aberdeen (Mr. F. C. Thomson) has now appeared on the Bench. I do not think his appearance on the Bench at the present time is any answer to the criticism I have made as to the way in which the Government have treated Scotland in regard to this matter, because we are entitled to have a responsible Scottish Minister on the Bench, and not simply a Junior Lord of the Treasury, however much we may appreciate his courtesy and willingness to be of assistance to his fellow Members of the House. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the Scottish Board of Health was to prescribe those sums. I read over that paragraph, and I came to the conclusion, that whoever else was to do it, it was not the Board of Health in Scotland. It does not seem to me to be possible, on the reading of the words themselves, that it should be the Board of Health in Scotland. The expenses of the Board shall be such sums as may be respectively prescribed by the Board. The very Board which is going to spend the money has the power to prescribe the amount. It is no use the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health shaking his head. On a previous occasion I am reminded that the same Minister got into trouble by shaking his head because he did not know at that time that it was a sort of habit he had, and he could not keep his head still. On that occasion we thought the hon. Gentleman was agreeing with our arguments, but it was very evident when the Minister of Health took part in the Debate that we had been quite mistaken and that what we had witnessed was a physical infirmity.

The Parliamentary Secretary does not know anything whatever about Scotland. Perhaps I am wrong in this because I have just been told that he once saw a Weir house, but I do not think that is any guarantee that he knows anything about Scotland. Here we have Subsection (3) of this fairly non-contentious Clause, and I think it is only right that we should have an assurance from some representative of the Government who has to deal with Scottish affairs. I believe my own colleagues would be quite willing to accept an answer on this matter from the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health who does know something about the conduct of affairs in the Board of Health. We should be even quite willing to listen to the Lord Advocate on this matter, though we should feel doubtful about the Solicitor-General. With all due respect to the hon. Member for Aberdeen—

Mr. F. C. THOMSON (Lord of the Treasury)

South Aberdeen.

Mr. STEPHEN

I am very pleased to hear what constituency the hon. and learned Gentleman represents, because I have often wondered. Having got that important information I am very thankful, but I submit that it is not of very great importance so far as this Clause is concerned. This is a matter of some importance to us in Scotland. Some Scottish societies have members in England, and some English societies have members in Scotland, and I want to know the position which is going to arise in regard to these members by the setting up of these Regulations. The Committee must remember that they are going to be very important Regulations, and there is going to be a lot of money at stake in connection with them. The variation of the reserve values is a matter of very great importance with regard to the future of many of these societies. I submit that, although this Clause seems to have a minor effect, and appears to be simply consequential upon the decisions that have been come to by the Committee, it is still a very important matter as far as the interests of many working people are concerned. It has been evident throughout all these discussions that Members of this house belonging to all parties have found great difficulty in elucidating what the various Clauses really mean. When an enthusiastic member of a society who is anxious to see his society grow from strength to strength and show a decent surplus, in spite of the mean wretched treatment which has been given to these societies by this robbing Government, comes to this sub-section, it is like Robinson Crusoe when he first stepped upon the desert island.

I want the Minister to tell us if these Regulations are going to be submitted to the House. I want him to inform us how we are to have the grave international questions which will arise dealt with under the Regulations to be drawn up by the Ministry of Health and applying to unfortunate people in Scotland, whose societies have an English connection. I submit that some of the people in societies in this country going to Scotland may come to regard this as placing them in an invidious position. In view of the fact that I have put those important considerations before the Committee, and in view of the fact that the Junior Lord of the Treasury representing a Scottish constituency has had time, to search

round to find a responsible Scottish Minister to answer my questions, I would suggest that we should now report Progress in order that we may get a really responsible Scottish Minister to reply to this Debate.

The CHAIRMAN

I cannot accept that Motion.

Mr. J. HUDSON

My hon. Friend who has just sat down has given his opinion that this is not a particularly contentious Clause. I am sorry to find myself in disagreement with my hon. Friend upon that point, because I think he might have discovered from the presence on the Treasury Bench during the greater part of the discussion of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health that there was something in this Clause which it was particularly important should be hidden. The responsible Ministers were out of the way while the discussion was going on, and the Parliamentary Secretary was left as an innocent victim to deal with the discussion. At any rate, I feel that be has been victimised by his colleagues. It is most unfortunate that he should have to stand the brunt of the discussion on this Clause. He does not even have the privilege of having his name on the Bill which we are discussing. The Bill is presented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was absent all last night when the discussion was going on, and who is absent now during the discussion on this Clause. I suppose he was safely tucked away in his bed during the small hours of the morning, and now I suppose he is having a good dinner, while his hon. Friend is left to face the music in the best way that he can. I complain that this Clause, which refers to certain Schedules—

Sir K. WOOD rose in his plate, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 226; Noes, 125.

Division No. 156.] AYES. [9.16 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Brittain, Sir Harry
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Barnett, Major Sir Richard Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Apsley, Lord Bethel, A. Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Betterton, Henry B. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Bullock, Captain M.
Astor, Viscountess Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan
Atkinson, C. Blades, Sir George Rowland Burman, J. B.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Blundell, F. N. Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.
Balniel, Lord Brassey, Sir Leonard Burton, Colonel H. W.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Preston, William
Campbell, E. T. Holt, Capt. H. P. Price, Major C. W. M.
Cassels, J. D, Hopkins, J. W. W. Radford, E. A.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Ramsden, E.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Rees, Sir Beddoe
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Held, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Chapman, Sir S. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N). Remer, J. R.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hume, Sir G. H. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hurst, Gerald B. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Clarry, Reginald George Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Ropner, Major L.
Cobb, Sir Cyril Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jackson, Sir H, (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Rye, F. G.
Cope, Major William Jacob, A. E. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Couper, J. B. Jephcott, A. R. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Sandeman, A. Stewart
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Sanderson, Sir Frank
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. King, Captain Henry Douglas Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Curzon, Captain Viscount Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Dalkeith, Earl of Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Shepperson, E. W.
Davies, Dr. Vernon Loder, J. de V. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Lord, Walter Greaves. Skelton, A. N.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Duckworth, John Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Edmonson, Major A. J. Lynn, Sir R. J. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Elliot, Captain Walter E. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Smithers, Waldron
Ellis, R. G. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness Sprot, Sir Alexander
Elveden, Viscount Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
England, Colonel A. MacIntyre, Ian Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, Sooth) McLean, Major A. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Fanshawe, Commander G. D. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Finburgh, S. Macquisten, F. A. Strickland, Sir Gerald
Forrest, W. MacRobert, Alexander M. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel. Templeton, W. P.
Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Makins, Brigadier-General E. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Galbraith, J. F. W. Malone, Major P. B. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Ganzoni, Sir John Margesson, Captain D. Tryon, Ht. Hon. George Clement
Gates, Percy Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn, K. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Glyn, Major R. G. C Meller, R. J. Wallhead, Richard C.
Goff, Sir Park Merriman, F. B. Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Grace, John Meyer, Sir Frank. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E.) Mitchell, w. Foot (Saffron Walden) Wells, S. R.
Gretton, Colonel John Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Grotrian, H. Brent Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Gunston, Captain D. W. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Winby, Colonel L. P.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Bad.) Nelson, Sir Frank Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Harland, A. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Wise, Sir Fredric
Harrison, G. J. C. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Withers, John James
Hartington, Marquess of Nuttall, Ellis Wolmer, Viscount
Haslam, Henry C. Oakley, T. Womersley, W. J.
Hawke, John Anthony Penny, Frederick George Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Henn, Sir Sydney H. Plicher, G. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pilditch, Sir Philip Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain
Hills, Major John Waller Power, sir John Cecil Bowyer.
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Cape, Thomas Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Charleton, H. C. Fenby, T. D.
Ammon, Charles George Clowes, S. Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Cluse, W. S. Gibbins, Joseph
Barnes, A. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Gillett, George M.
Barr, J. Connolly, M. Gosling, Harry
Batey, Joseph Cove, W. G. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Greenall, T.
Broad, F. A. Crawfurd, H. E. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Bromfield, William Davies, David (Montgomery) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Bromley, J. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Griffiths, T, (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Groves, T.
Buchanan, G. Dennison, R. Grundy, T. W.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Duncan, C. Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Stephen, Campbell
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) MacNeill-Weir, L. Sullivan, Joseph
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) March, S. Sutton, J. E.
Harris, Percy A. Montague, Frederick Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Hayday, Arthur Murnin, H. Thurtle, E.
Hayes, John Henry Naylor, T. E. Tinker, John Joseph
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Oliver, George Harold Townend, A. E.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Owen, Major G. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Hint, G. H. Palin, John Henry Varley, Frank B.
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Paling, W. Viant, S. P.
Hore-Belisha, Leslie Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wallhead, Richard C.
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Ponsonby, Arthur Walsh, Rt. Hon Stephen
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Potts, John S. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
John, William (Rhondda, West) Ritson, J. Westwood, J.
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Salter, Dr. Alfred Whiteley, W.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Scrymgeour, E. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sexton, James Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Kelly, W. T. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Williams, T. (York. Don Valley)
Kennedy, T. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Kirkwood, D. Sitch, Charles H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Lee, F. Slesser, Sir Henry H. Windsor, Walter
Lindley, F. W. Smillie, Robert Wright, W.
Livingstone, A. M. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Lowth, T. Snell, Harry
Lunn, William Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mackinder, W. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
MacLaren, Andrew Stamford, T. W. Warne.

Question put accordingly, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 225;Noes,132.

Division No. 157.] AYES. [9.25 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Holt, Captain H. P.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hopkins, J. W. W.
Apsley, Lord Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Curzon, Captain Viscount Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Dalkeith, Earl of Howard, Captain Hon. Donald
Astor, Viscountess Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Atkinson, C. Davies, Dr. Vernon Hudson, R.S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Hume, Sir G. H.
Balniel, Lord Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hurst, Gerald B.
Barclay, Harvey, C. M. Edmondson, Major A. J. Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Elliot, Captain Walter E. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Ellis, R. G. Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S.
Bethel, A. Elveden, Viscount Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Betterton, Henry B. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Jacob, A. E.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Falle, Sir Bertram G, Jephcott, A. R.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Blades, Sir George Rowland Finburgh, S. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Blundell, F. N. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Brassey, Sir Leonard Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony King, Captain Henry Douglas
Briscoe, Richard George Galbraith, J. F. W. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Brittain, Sir Harry Ganzoni, Sir John Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Gates, Percy. Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Goff, Sir Park Loder, J. de V.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Grace, John Lord, Walter Greaves
Bullock, Captain M. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N, Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Burman, J. B. Gretton, Colonel John Lynn, Sir Robert J.
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Grotrian, H. Brent MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Burton, Colonel H. W. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gunston, Captain D. W. MacIntyre, Ian
Campbell, E. T. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. McLean, Major A.
Cassels, J. D. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Harland, A. Macquisten, F. A.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Harrison, G. J. C. MacRobert, Alexander M.
Chapman. Sir S. Hartington, Marquess of Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Haslam, Henry C. Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Churchill, Rt. Hon, Winston Spencer Hawke, John Anthony Malone, Major P. B.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Margesson, Captain D.
Clarry, Reginald George Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.
Cobb, Sir Cyril Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Meller, R. J.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Merriman, F. B.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Honnessy, Major J. R G. Meyer, Sir Frank
Cope, Major William Hills, Major John Waller Milne, J. S. Wardlaw.
Couper, J. B. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Ropner, Major L. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Moore-Brabazon Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Templeton, W. P.
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Rye, F. G. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Nelson, Sir Frank Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L, (Exeter) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sandeman, A. Stewart Wallace, Captain D. E.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Nuttall, Ellis Sanderson, Sir Frank Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Oakley, T. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Penny, Frederick George Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Wells, S. R.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Perkins, Colonel E. K. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Shepperson, E. W. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Pilcher, G. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co, Down) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Pliditch, Sir Philip Skelton, A. N. Winby, Colonel L. P.
Power, Sir John Cecil Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Windsor-Clive, Colonel George
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Preston, William Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wise, Sir Fredric
Price, Major C. W. M. Smithers, Waldron Withers, John James
Radford, E. A. Sprot, Sir Alexander Wolmer, Viscount
Ramsden, E. Stanley, Colonel Hon. G. F. Womersley, W. J.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Remer, J. R. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Rice, Sir Frederick Steel, Major Samuel Strang Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Strickland, Sir Gerald TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Bowyer.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Hall, F. (York. W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Ritson, J.
Ammon, Charles George Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Harris, Percy A. Scrymgeour, E.
Barnes, A. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Sexton, James
Barr, J. Hayday, Arthur Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Batey, Joseph Hayes, John Henry Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Sitch, Charles H.
Broad, F. A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Bromfield, William Hirst, G. H. Smillie, Robert
Bromley, J. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Buchanan, G. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Snail, Harry
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Cape, Thomas Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Charleton, H. C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Stamford, T. W.
Clowes, S. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Stephen, Campbell
Cluse, W. S. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sullivan, Joseph
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sutton, J. E.
Connolly, M. Kelly, W. T. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Cove, W. G. Kennedy, T. Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kirkwood, D. Thurtle, E.
Crawfurd, H. E. Lee, F. Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, David (Montgomery) Lindley, F. W. Townend, A. E.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Livingstone, A. M. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lowth, T. Varley, Frank B.
Dennison, R. Lunn, William Viant, S. P.
Duckworth, John Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Wallhead, Richard C
Duncan, C. Mackinder, W. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) MacLaren, Andrew Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
England, Colonel A. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Fenby, T. D. MacNeill-Weir, L. Westwood, J.
Forrest, W. March, S. Whiteley, W.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Montague, Frederick Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Gibbins, Joseph Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Gillett, George M. Murnin, H. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Gosling, Harry Naylor, T. E. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Oliver, George Harold Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenall, T. Owen, Major G. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Palin, John Henry Windsor, Walter
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Paling, W. Wright, W.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Groves, T, Ponsonby, Arthur
Grundy, T. W. Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Rees, Sir Beddoe Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Warne.