HC Deb 14 April 1926 vol 194 cc423-55
Mr. THOMAS

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

We have reached a stage when we ought not to proceed any further. I desire to draw attention to the last situation created. There will be no one from the Front Bench, I presume, who will suggest that on the discussion of the last Clause any attempt was made to deal with the merits of the case fairly and honestly. Curiously enough, one of the most vital Amendments to this particular Clause was, by the action of the Minister, most deliberately excluded.

Mr. D. HERBERT

On a point of Order. May I ask what is the Motion?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is going to move directly.

Mr. THOMAS

The position is this, that, in addition to the other powers taken, a discretion is given to the Minister in the Clause to deal with particular approved societies, and not only to deal with them, but to give a certificate which is, as we believe, of importance to the benefit of the people. There was an Amendment on these grounds to be moved. We were denied absolutely the right to discuss it.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that he cannot find fault with the Minister for moving the Closure.

Mr. THOMAS

It rather indicates that we have reached a stage where it is impossible to give effective consideration to this Bill. It cannot be doubted that this is an important Bill. It affects 15,000,000 people.

Mr. HERBERT

On the point of Order. Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman has as yet moved his Motion. If not I wish to ask if he is entitled to make a long speech when there is no Question before the House and in anticipation of what is intended to be moved?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I think I shall be able to keep the right hon. Gentleman in order.

Mr. BUCHANAN

On a point of Order. I wish to ask your ruling, whether it is in order for a hon. Member of this House on a point of Order to cast a reflection on the Chairman. The point I wish to make is that the hon. Member who raised the point of Order cast a reflection on the Chair in so far as he sought to create the impression that you, Sir, could not conduct the business. May I ask hon. Members to refrain from making reflections on the Chair?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I did not take the hon. Member's remarks as casting any reflection at all.

Mr. THOMAS

In various ways, as indicated by different speeches yesterday and to-day, the anxiety has been expressed that such an important subject should be discussed when Members are fresh. We have been her since 2.45 yesterday afternoon, and we took Parliamentary business, but at 5.35 I think we are entitled to support for the Motion I now make to report Progress.

Mr. HERBERT

On a point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman has already done so once to-night, and I submit under the Standing Orders that he cannot do so again.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

Under the Standing Orders he is not able to move it on the same question.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

I think we are entitled, in accordance with the practice of this House, certainly at half-past five in the morning, to ask the Minister what his intentions are and whether they are honourable. The Bill has been carried successfully right up to this stage, and think the Minister might, now that he is going to inflict the same punishment on his supporters to-night, let the House go now. There are a good many questions which could be discussed upon Clause 4. or rather there are matters to be elucidated which are not very clear at all; and I know a little about the Act. It would surely be fair, under the circumstances, to assent to the proposal before the House.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The right hon. Gentleman is a master of seduction and I must be on my guard, but seeing that in the last hour or so the Committee has made considerable progress in the Bill I certainly think it would not be necessary to sit very much longer. Therefore I suggest that we should finish Clause 4 and then report progress. The right hon. Gentleman says there are a number of points in Clause 4 that require elucidation and we shall be happy to give any explanation required.

Mr. WHEATLEY

I am sure the Committee appreciates the change that has taken place in the attitude of the two right hon. Gentlemen in charge of the Bill. If he had displayed the same conciliatory spirit in the earlier part of the proceedings the discussions of this House would have been carried on in a more friendly tone and probably to the advantage of the Measure and the tempers of all concerned. I can only remark that the Government's own supporters are the most sickly looking lot it has been my experience to witness.

Might I press the Minister of Health to go a little further on the course which he has adopted. As the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has explained, this is a very important Clause. Indeed, the whole Bill is of first class importance and, I should say, particularly this Clause. I ask the Minister to consider whether it is fair to the fifteen millions of people who are involved that we should at this time of the morning, after the numerous and long journeys we have been subjected to through the Division lobbies and with loads of Scotch porridge in our stomachs, enter into a discussion of this im- portance. I would therefore appeal to the Minister of Health to accept the Motion that has been submitted to the House and allow us to have a few minutes rest so that we may return to our work refreshed and capable of devoting to this important section the consideration which it deserves. I am sure that it would facilitate the passage of the Bill if, even at this late hour, the right hon. Gentleman would accede to the reasonable request contained in the Motion.

Question put,"That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

Captain GARRO-JONES

(seated and covered): On a point of Order. While I have every sympathy with the hon. Members who desire to delay the passage of this Bill, I have an Amendment to propose to the next Clause, and I wish to ask you if there is any method by which you, Sir, can expedite the completion of this Division.

The CHAIRMAN

We will await the progress of events.

Mr. THURTLE

(seated and covered): On a point of Order. In view of the prolonged period of this Division, may I ask whether the Committee is now stymied or bunkered?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

(seated and covered): On a point of Order. Can you Sir, direct the Tellers to ascertain who is wilfully obstructing the business of the House, and then deal with them under Standing Order 18?

The CHAIRMAN

I must have some further information as to who, if any, is obstructing. The Tellers for the Noes handed in their numbers at the Table in the ordinary course quite 25 minutes, or more, ago. The Tellers for the Ayes have not made their report as to the numbers passing through the Aye Lobby. In these circumstances, I must ask the Serjeant-at-Arms, who is responsible for order in the Lobbies, to ascertain from the Tellers why they are not in a position to report the numbers in the Aye Lobby, and to report, if any, Members who are in the Aye Lobby decline to pass the Tellers. I ask the Serjeant-at-Arms to ascertain that, and to report accordingly.

The ASSISTANT SERJEANT-AT-ARMS

announced that 13 Members refused to pass the Tellers in the Aye Lobby.

The CHAIRMAN

I ask the Serjeant-at-Arms to ascertain from the Tellers the names of the said Members and to report accordingly.

The SERJEANT-AT-ARMS

announced that the following Members had so refused: Mr. Dunnico, Scurr, Mr. Mardy Jones, Mr. Lansbury, Mr. Lawson, Mr. Shepherd, Mr. Purcell, Mr. Taylor, Colonel Day, Mr. Wheatley, Mr. Compton, Mr. Dalton and Mr. Hardie.

The CHAIRMAN

Under Standing Order No. 18, I have to name Mr. Dunnico, Mr. Scurr, Mr. Mardy Jones, Mr. Lansbury, Mr. Lawson, Mr. Shepherd, Mr. Purcell, Mr. Taylor, Colonel Day, Mr. Wheatley, Mr. Compton, Mr. Dalton and Mr. Hardie for having abused the Rules of the House, by persistently and wilfully obstructing the Business of the House. I suspend the Proceedings of the Committee, and will make my Report to the House.

The CHAIRMAN

then left the Chair, to make his Report to the House.

Mr. SPEAKERresumed the Chair.

The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS (Mr. James Hope)

I have to report that the following Members of this House have abused the Rules of the House by persistently and wilfully obstructing the business of the House, namely, having gone into the Lobby to vote and refusing to come through and pass the Tellers—Mr. Dunnico, Mr. Scurr, Mr. Mardy Jones, Mr. Lansbury, Mr. Lawson, Mr. Shepherd, Mr. Purcell, Mr. Taylor, Colonel Day, Mr. Wheatley, Mr. Compton, Mr. Dalton, and Mr. Hardie. I make this Report under Standing Order No. 18.

Mr. SPEAKERrose—

Mr. THURTLE

On a point of Order—

Mr. SPEAKER

No point of order can arise.

Mr. THURTLE

Is it not competent for Members to ask whether this Standing Order applies in this case?

Mr. SPEAKER

I have a Report from the Chairman of Committees that certain Members of the Committee have been persistently obstructing the business of the House. [HON. MEMBERS:"No!"] Under Standing Order No. 18, it is quite clear that hon. Members have abused the Rules of the House by wilfully obstructing the business of the House or otherwise.

Mr. THURTLE

May we not ask whether there has been persistence in this case, and also whether we can be told what Rules of the House have been broken by these hon. Members?

Mr. MORRIS

May I ask whether in this case the offence having been committed in the Lobby, it comes within the words"within the House"in Standing Order No. 18?

Mr. SPEAKER

Certainly; the Lobby is part of the House for the purpose of this Standing Order.

Mr. STEPHEN

May I ask if we can discover how the Chairman has obtained the names of these, individuals in the Lobby?

Mr. MORRIS

May I draw attention to a ease reported in Erskine May, where an offence was committed in the Lobby, and complaint being made Mr. Speaker on that occasion ruled that as the offence was committed in the Lobby it was for the House itself to decide?

Mr. SPEAKER

That is not a matter of obstruction of the business of the House.

Mr. THURTLE

Will you rule whether or not there has been persistence in this case?

Mr. BARR

May I ask whether any warning, has been conveyed to these hon. Members, as in every case where there has been a suspension of any kind, and whether, in spite of that warning, they have persisted? Has any kind of intimation been made to them? I certainly heard none, and I was in the House all the time.

Mr. SPEAKER

I am informed that the Committee waited for hon. Members to return from the Division for a period of over half an hour.

Mr. BARR

Is it not in accordance with the tradition of this House that there, should he some warning given from the Chair?

Motion made, and Question proposed, That Mr. Dunnico, Mr. Scurr, Mr. Mardy Jones, Mr. Lansbury, Mr. Lawson, Mr. Shepherd, Mr. Purcell, Mr. Taylor, Colonel Day, Mr. Wheatley, Mr. Compton, Mr. Dalton and Mr. Hardie be suspended from the service of the House."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]

Several HON. MEMBERSrose—

Mr. SPEAKER

No discussion can arise. I am bound to put the Question.

The House proceeded to a Division; and the Tellers for the Ayes leaving returned to the House, Mr. Speaker, after an interval, directed the Serjeant-at-Arms to call the Tellers for the Noes to the Table.

The House divided: Ayes, 163; Noes 76.

Division No. 145.] AYES. [6.42. a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rice, Sir Frederick
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Harrison, G. J. C. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Hartington, Marquess of Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Atkinson, C. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Ropner, Major L.
Balniel, Lord Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Rugyles-Brise, Major E. A.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Haslam, Henry C. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Bethel, A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Rye, F. G.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Salmon, Major I.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Hills, Major John Waller Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Blundell, F. N. Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Sandon, Lord
Brass, Captain W. Holt, Capt. H. P. Savery, S. S.
Briscoe, Richard George Hops, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Brocklebank, C, E. R. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C, R. I. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Shepperson, E. W.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Huntingfield, Lord Skelton, A. N.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Burman, J. B. Jacob, A. E. Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Burton, Colonel H. W. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Kerbt, R. (Prtsmth, S.) Kindersley, Major Guy M. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Chadwick Sir Robert Burton Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J.A (Birm.,W.) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N, (Ladywood) Loder, J. de V. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Chapman, Sir S. Lougher, L. Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Cobb, Sir Cyril Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Cope, Major William Lumley, L. R. Strickland, Sir Gerald
Couper, J. B. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Courtauld, Major J. S. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Templeton, W. P.
Courthope, Lieut. Col. Sir George L. McLean, Major A. Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Macquisten, F. A. Thornton, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) MacRobert, Alexander M. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Curzon, Captain Viscount Malone, Major P. B. Tinne, J. A.
Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Wallace, Captain O. E.
Davies, Dr. Vernon Margesson, Capt. D. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Wells, S. N.
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Meller, R. J. Wheler, Major Granville C. H.
Dawson, Sir Philip Meyer, Sir Frank White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Dixey, A. C. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Drewe, C. Morrison, H. (Wills, Salisbury) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Eden, Captain Anthony Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Edmondson, Major A. J. Neville, R. J. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Everard, W. Lindsay Newman, Sir R. H. S. O. L. (Exeter) Winterton, Ht. Hon. Earl
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Nuttall, Ellis Wise, Sir Fredric
Fraser, Captain Ian Penny, Frederick George Womersley, W. J.
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Goff, Sir Park Perring, Sir William George Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Gower, Sir Robert Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Grant, J. A. Philipson, Mabel Wragg, Herbert
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N Power, Sir John Cecil Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Greene, W. P. Crawford Preston, William
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Badford, E. A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Gunston, Captain D. W. Raine, W. Commander B. Eyres-Monsell and Major Sir H. Barnston.
Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Broad, F. A. Cluse, W. S
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Bromley, J. Cove, W. G.
Ammon, Charles George Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Barr, J. Cape, Thomas Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Batey, Joseph Charleton, H. C. Dennison, R.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Clowes, S. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Fenby, T. D. Lunn, William Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Mackinder, W. Tinker, John Joseph
Gibbins, Joseph Morris, R. H. Townend, A. E.
Gillett, George M. Oliver, George Harold Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Paling, W. Varley, Frank B.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Viant, S. P.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Ponsonby, Arthur Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Grundy, T. W. Potts, John S. Warns, G, H.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Ritson, J. Whitelay, W.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Hayday, Arthur Shiels, Dr. Drummond Williams, Or. J. H. (Llanelly)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Snort, Alfred (Wednesbury) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Sitch, Charles H. Wilson, C H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hirst, G. H. Slesser, Sir Henry H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Windsor, Walter
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Snell, Harry
John, William (Rhondda, West) Stephen, Campbell TELLERS FOR THE NOES —
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. A. Barnes.
Kelly, W. T. Sullivan, Joseph
Kennedy, T.
Mr. SPEAKER

then directed Mr. Dunnico, Mr. Scurr, Mr. Mardy Jones, Mr. Lansbury, Mr. Lawson, Mr. Shepherd, Mr. Purcell, Mr. Taylor, Colonel Day, Mr. Wheatley, Mr. Compton, Mr. Dalton and Mr. Hardie. to withdraw, and they withdrew accordingly.

Mr. THOMAS

You, Sir, were not present in the House when the incident reported to you took place. I was prevented from taking part in the Debate because it had been put without. Question. But I do submit to you that those who have been named to you, and by your decision suspended, were following precedent set not only in one but in scores of Debates, and feeling they were justified in doing that, is there any precedent for the unwarrantable course taken in the suspension of them?

Mr. SPEAKER

The Standing Order is quite clear. The Question has to be put without Amendment or Debate. All I will say, in reply to the right hon. Gentleman, is that I have no concern with the proceedings in Committee. I deal only with the matter that is reported to me. My own action in summoning the Tellers to the Table was to deal with a new emergency. I shall always think it right to use my powers in this Chair to deal with events that may not be specifically provided for in thy Standing Orders.

But, in accordance a with precedent, I shall take the earliest opportunity of consulting with the Leader of the House as to whether some action should be taken to make provision for these circumstances. I think that is the dignified and orderly way of dealing with the occasion. The right hon. Gentleman will then have an opportunity of raising the question if an Amendment to Standing Orders be proposed.

Mr. THOMAS

I should certainly be the last to challenge your ruling on the matter. It is because you could not possibly know all the circumstances, and of necessity had to act, that I do respectfully put to you that an opportunity ought to be given for you, Sir, to know exactly the circumstances in connection with the case.

Mr. SPEAKER

With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's other question, the Committee will resume, and the Division that was not concluded will be taken over again. The Committee will resume.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

I understand that there is some suggestion that the whole of this difficult matter of procedure may be and ought to be discussed. As you, Sir, very well know, this is not the first time that this has happened in this House, and I should like to know whether the question can be put to you or to the Government, whether art opportunity will be given to the Members to discuss it, not only on what has happened to-night, but in reference to similar incidents in which hon. Gentlemen over there have taken part.

Mr. THOMAS

Do I understand that there will be an opportunity to discuss this question?

Mr. SPEAKER

All I can say is that. I shall consider it my duty to consult the Leader of the House as to the proper way of dealing with this matter. I think the House will be content to leave the matter there. [HON. MEMBERS:"No!"] I have dealt with this matter as I think right, and in accordance with the Rules of the House. I would beg the House to accept the situation.

Mr. MAXTON

No, no! We cannot allow this to pass! On a point of Order. [Interruption.]

Bill again considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee proceeded to a Division..

The Tellers for the Noes having returned to the House, the Chairman, after an interval, directed the Sergeant-at-Arms to call the Tellers for the Ayes to the Table.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 90; Noes, 162.

Division No. 146.] AYES. [7.8. a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Grundy, T. W. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Ammon, Charles George Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Sitch, Charles H.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Barnes, A. Hayday, Arthur Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Barr, J. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Snell, Harry
Batey, Joseph Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Stephen, Campbell
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hirst, G. H. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Broad, F, A. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Sullivan, Joseph
Bromley, J. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Thurtle, E.
Cape, Thomas John, William (Rhondda, West) Tinker, John Joseph
Charleton, H. C. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Townend, A. E.
Clowes, S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cluse, W. S. Kelly, W. T. Varley, Frank B.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kennedy, T. Viant, S. P.
Cove, W. G. Lunn, William Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Mackinder, W. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. O. (Rhondda)
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Maxton, James Whiteley, W.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Morris, R. H. Wiggins, William Martin
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Oliver, George Harold Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Dennison, R. Owen, Major G. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Paling, W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Fenby, T. D. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Pethick-Lawrence, F, W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Ponsonby, Arthur Windsor, Walter
Gibbins, Joseph Potts, John S. Wright, W.
Gillett, George M. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Ritson, J.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Mr. Warne and Mr. B. Smith.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Courtauld, Major J. S. Harrison, G. J. C.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Hartington, Marquess of
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Crott, Brigadier-General Sir H Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Atkinson, C. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Balniel, Lord Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Haslam, Henry C.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Davies, Dr. Vernon Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Bethel, A. Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Hills, Major John Waller
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy
Blades, Sir George Rowland Dawson, Sir Philip Holt, Captain H. P.
Blundell, F. N. Dixey, A. C. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Drewe, C, Howard, Captain Hon. Donald
Briscoe, Richard George Eden, Captain Anthony Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Edmondson, Major A. J. Huntingfield, Lord
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Everard, W. Lindsay Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Jacob, A. E.
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C (Berks, Newb'y) Fraser, Captain Ian James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Burman, J. B. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Kidd. J. (Linlithgow)
Burton, Colonel H. W. Goff, Sir Park Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gower, Sir Robert Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.) Grant, J. A. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Loder, J. O. V.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J.A.(Birm., W.) Greene, W. P. Crawford Lougher, L.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Chapman, Sir S. Gunston, Captain D. W. Lumley, L. R.
Cobb, Sir Cyril Hacking, Captain Douglas H. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Cope, Major William Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Couper, J. B. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry McLean, Major A.
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Richardson, sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Macquisten, F. A. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
MacRobert, Alexander M. Ropner, Major L. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Malone, Major P. B. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Tinne, J. A.
Margesson, Captain D. Rye, F. G. Wallace, Captain D. E.
Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Salmon, Major I. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Meller, R. J. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Wells, S. R.
Meyer, Sir Frank Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Sandon, Lord White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Han. B. M. Savory, S. S. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Neville, R. J. Shepperson, E. W. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Skelton, A. N. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Nuttall, Ellis Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Wise, Sir Fredric
Penny, Frederick George Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Womersley, W. J.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Perring, Sir William George Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Philipson, Mabel Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Wragg, Herbert
Power, Sir John Cecil Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Preston, William Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Radford, E. A. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Raine, W. Strickland, Sir Gerald Captain Viscount Curzon and Lord Stanley.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Rice, Sir Frederick Templeton, W. P.
Mr. THOMAS

I am going to make an appeal to the Government.

The CHAIRMAN

After the decision of the Committee, I cannot accept another Motion immediately.

Mr. THOMAS

You ought, Mr. Chairman, to be relieved of that responsibility. I am entitled to ask the Government whether, having regard to all the circumstances, they consider it is wise to go on with this Bill at this stage. We are at Clause. 4. It is admitted that it is an important Bill. It must be admitted that the incident which I am not allowed to discuss in itself renders it impossible for adequate justice to be done to the Debate. I submit to the right hon. Gentleman that he cannot possibly gain anything, and that it would be in the best interests of the House if he himself would move the Adjournment.

The CHAIRMAN

Captain Garro-Jones.

Captain GARRO-JONES

Before I move this Amendment, I submit to you that Clause 3 has not yet been passed by this Committee.

The CHAIRMAN

I am afraid the hon. and gallant Gentlemen is in error.

Captain GARRO-JONES

On a point of Order. May I ask whether Clause 3 has been passed by the Committee?

The CHAIRMAN

It has been passed, and due record has been taken of it.

Captain GARRO-JONES

I beg to move, in page 5, line 4, to leave out the word"twenty-seven", and to insert instead thereof the word"thirty."

I hope when the hon. Member gets up to reply to my remarks he will be good enough to tell the Committee exactly what sums are involved in Clause 4, Subsection (1), what exactly is the purpose of shifting the charge from the Government to the approved societies, and what justification he can bring for making them bear this charge. I also wish him to explain by what method he will compute what proportion of the cost of insurance stamps is attributable to the National Health Insurance, and what proportion to the old age pensions, and other charges. How far is this principle going to be extended? Have the Government any intention of charging the inspectorate fees which are at, present borne by the Government on the approved societies? It seems to me there is as much justification for shifting these administrative charges. The amount seems to be a small one. I find myself amazed at the mean devices to which the Government have been compelled to resort to save a few pounds at the cost always of these poor people. The Government seem to vote alternately Measures of gross extravagance and petty mean Measures like this. We had them making a gift of-Super-tax. Now they are shifting from the Central Fund sums that do not amount to more than a few thousands. I think there are other sources which could be taxed before they come down to these mean devices. Some of the Lords Chancellor, for instance, might be touched, and some of the pensions which are paid, with all respect, to obscure members of the Royal Family. Other sources should be taxed first. It is not long since the House voted a vast sum for expenditure in Mesopotamia, and I remember the cheers raised when it was said that the British Empire was not built up by running away. Neither was the British Empire built up by petty devices like this. I hope the House will resist the transfer of these charges on to shoulders less able to bear them.

Sir K. WOOD

The hon. and gallant Member no doubt appreciates that this is perhaps a difficult matter to understand and I know he will forgive me when I say he is wholly misleading on the intention of this Section. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd George) and the hon. Member opposite who is a Member of the Consultative Council, knows there are two funds rising out of the stamp savings. The first concerns insurance stamps purchased in advance of requirements. That sum, with a number of items such as stamps for which no claim has been made —it is not a large sum, the major part being stamps paid for in advance—amounts to £1,500,000 at the present time. On that, interest is being borne at the rate of 4½ per cent., which is about £67,000. That cannot be regarded as money which belongs to any national insurance fund or to any approved society. Obviously, the approved societies have nothing to do with it.

Captain GARRO-JONES

Who gets this £67,000 now?

Sir K. WOOD

At the present moment it is in this stamps sales account, and we are proposing to utilise it for this purpose.

Captain GARRO-JONES

What is this stamps sales account?

Sir K. WOOD

It comes, as a matter of fact, under Section 68 of the Act; certain proportion of it representing unclaimed stamps goes to the Central Fund.

Captain GARRO-JONES

Then it is robbing the Central Fund.

Sir K. WOOD

No. When employers have paid in advance for insurance stamps it cannot by any stretch of the imagination be said to belong to the insurance societies. And now perhaps I might indicate other provisions in the Clause. In addition to this particular fund, there is a sum of money which arises from lost cards, cards lost or destroyed and never claimed.

Mr. BUCHANAN

On a point of Order. Is it in order on this Amendment, which seeks to alter a date, to go into questions relating to the whole Clause? I understand the hon. Member is now discussing all the Amendments dealing with this Clause.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

Strictly speaking, it would probably be considered out of order to go further than the actual Amendment. But during the course of this Debate it has been the practice to show the objections to the particular Measure in order to give reasons for putting it off. I think it is also for the convenience of the Committee to discuss the substance of this Sub-section on this first Amendment.

Mr. BUCHANAN

I recognise the justice of the case, but that has usually been done before the Mover has moved his Amendment in order to give him the same latitude in moving as was given to those who reply. In this case the Mover simply contented himself with moving the Amendment in a very brief speech. Should not those who are replying on behalf of the Government be restricted in the same way?

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

On that point of Order. I should have thought it would have been in order for the Parliamentary Secretary to give us the particulars and let us know what are the amounts which are to be operated under this Clause. The proposal is the postponement, and my hon. and gallant friend the Member for South Hackney (Captain Garro-Jones) very properly asked what were the amounts. I should have thought that was very germane to the Amendment. We should know exactly what the sums are.

Sir K. WOOD

I was saying that there is a fund which has for some time been available from lost and destroyed cards and stamps, and in the past that fund was used, at any rate for the last two years, for the purposes of paying the extra amount to the medical men on the panel. That fund, at any rate so far as the great bulk of it is concerned—and at one time it was of considerable proportions—will be practically exhausted by the end of the year. But, men being what they are, it is anticipated that stamps will be lost and cards destroyed again, so that it is calculated by the actuaries that there will be a sufficient fund available to meet the purposes set out in the remaining part of the Clause. The first one is to prevent members of societies getting in arrear or being or continuing to be suspended from benefit. Approved societies pay under present conditions some £250,000 a year to enable insured persons suffering from prolonged unemployment to avoid suspension from benefit, and we are proposing under this Clause that the money should be made available out of this Fund to members of approved societies in order that they may avoid losing their benefits through prolonged unemployment. Then the second Sub-clause (b) arises from the fact that, unfortunately, there has been special difficulty, as many hon. Members know, owing to the serious increase in the cost of drugs. That is referred to many times in the investigations made by the Royal Commission, and it is estimated that the deficiency on the Drug Fund will be increased to £600,000 by 1st December, 1926. In order to meet that situation we make the provision in (b). Under (c), if there is any money left at that time, the balance is to be devoted to the matters set out in Clause 1, namely, matters of providing insurance stamps and cards.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

What is the saving to the Treasury by the operation of this?

Sir K. WOOD

So far as stamps are concerned, as I have already said, £200,000.

Mr. THOMAS

Supposing this Clause is not operative, that is to say, not included in the Bill, where would that sum of £200,000 go, and what would it be used for?

Sir K. WOOD

I think the answer is, of course, that it would remain in the stamps fund. A portion of it goes into the Central Fund.

Mr. PALING

How much money has been paid in by the Government up to the present?

Sir K. WOOD

I do not quite follow.

Mr. PALING

What is the diversion of this money for the purpose as it stands in the Bill going to save the Government?

Sir K. WOOD

We are asking for £200,000.

Mr. DAVIES

I thought I understood the National Health Insurance scheme rather well, but this Clause actually baffles me, and I shall want much more enlightenment from the hon. Gentleman than he has yet been able to give. Up to this moment the moneys secured from unclaimed stamps have gone to a fund held by the Ministry of Health and the Treasury. Out of that fund there has been paid at the rate of 3s. per insured member per annum towards medical benefit. What this Clause does is to throw the 3s. on the funds of the approved societies. I will put it another way. If the unclaimed stamp account was still allowed to accumulate, that money as in the case of 1924–25, would go towards the 13s. medical benefit for 1926 and onwards.

Mr. THOMAS

Can the hon. Gentleman say if the original amount was paid over to meet the situation, for it did not belong to the approved societies.

Sir K. WOOD

A portion belongs to the Central Fund.

Mr. DAVIES

As far as I understand the National Health insurance scheme, the Government is not entitled to make any profit out of the transactions even of the sale of stamps. This is a business with several other Departments connected with it, and I understand the Government is making a profit of £1,500,000 in the stamps sales account.

Sir K. WOOD

No. This £1,500,000 is money paid by employers in advance for stamps, but no one is attempting to take the money that belongs to the State on the stamps that have been purchased. It is the interest which we are keeping.

Mr. DAVIES

I did not follow the right hon. Gentleman before; he has now cleared a point which was rather intricate. But the sum total of the transaction is this, that because employers pay for their stamps in advance there accrues to the State a certain sum by way of interest, and then the Government, in order to relieve the Treasury of the cost of stamps and insurance cards utilise this interest. I do not know what the employers will do after a statement of that kind. I imagine that some employers on the Tory side at any rate will take note of the fact that the State is making interest on payments in advance for stamps. As far as I understand this intricate problem, the Government up to are paying for the stamps and for the insurance cards. Consequently what we are about to do at the moment is to utilise this interest and relieve the State. That is the only deduction that one can draw from the statement, of the hon. Gentleman, who said that the cost of stamps and cards is £200,000 per annum. That is one-half the cost, dividing it into two parts between the widows pensions scheme and this scheme. I do not understand these sums of money on the fringe of the national health insurance scheme which do not belong to the approved societies.

I understood the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to argue that the value of the unclaimed stamps should not belong to approved societies. I challenge that doctrine. Let us see exactly what happens. An employer employs 10 workpeople, he proceeds to the post office to buy stamps to fix on their cards and pays over to the post office the money in respect of those stamps Surely when the employer buys those stamps over the counter of the post office he is entering into a transaction under the national health insurance scheme. When the 10 men hand their cards or post them to the society and one gets lost, the Treasury takes the value of the card, about 35s., and the Parliamentary Secretary stands up and declares that the money does not belong to the approved society. To whom does it belong if not to the approved society? Does it really belong to the Treasury? This is a new code of morality in finance. If a man entering the Bank of England, saw there the sum of £1,100,000, and took the money from the coffers of the bank that would be regarded as stealing. But if the same man went to the bank and said that he was transferring that sum of money, which does not belong to him, by process of a cheque on a bank account, that would be honest, I suppose.

We are dragging information out gradually, and before we conclude I expect the whole Clause will be explained. I see that paragraph (b) of this Clause is to the effect that sums of money are to be paid in respect of medicine and appliances supplied as part of the medical benefit, What I cannot understand is that we were presumed in Clause 2 to have covered the whole cost of medical benefit, yet the hon. Gentleman comes along and says there is still a sum of £600,000 to go towards the cost of medical benefit. He ought to explain exactly what he means by that. I regard this Clause not only difficult to understand but deliberately and purposely made so. Hon. Members who have had experience of Bills for 10, 15 or 20 years, tell me that even they do not understand the Clause. The hon. Gentleman (Sir K. Wood), who is so well versed in National Health insurance, was quite capable of supplying that remarkable article on National Health Insurance to the Press of the country, and the Committee ought therefore to demand a fuller explanation than he has given.

8.0 A.M.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

The hon. Gentleman told us during the Debate that the excess for medical benefit was drawn from a certain source, and at this moment the source was being drained and, unless sonic Clause of the Bill made out a provision for the extra medical fees, the donation would be 3s. per patient short as a result of diverting that Clause for a period of 12 months. At the same time, as my hon. Friend has just stated in a fairly comprehensive survey of the whole financial aspect, whatever arguments may be advanced by the Parliamentary Secretary or try the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, the plain elementary fact is that every source from which money can be drawn which ought really to belong to the approved society, has been drawn upon. Now the hon. Gentleman tells us, for instance, that this stamp money and the money for cards really ought to go to the State, and ought not to be the possession of the approved society. I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman this question: Does he believe it would be legitimate for the nation to demand all moneys paid to the Prudential or any other insurance company when policies have lapsed? It seems to me to be a fair simile, and if it is legitimate for the State on this occasion to take any money desired from books of stamps, it would be well for the State to demand all money for policies that have lapsed. Secondly, I seem to feel that this Bill, notwithstanding the portion that will be utilised for them who have to work for long periods to prevent them losing their normal benefits, holds the plain financial fact that the Government is going to secure annually £200,000 that ought to be left for national distribution among the 15 million people who need it most in the form of additional benefits. As the medical benefits are no longer derived from this particular course, it seems to me there is no justification for the State to take advantage of these sums of money. I urge the Committee at least to support this Amendment, which extends the Clause until 1930 instead of 1927. The comparatively small sums to be derived should be available for emergencies during the next two or three years. I see no reason why the State should take this money which does not belong to it. They are not entitled to any money that accrues as the result of lost stamps or cards. I urge the Committee to support this Amendment so at least to delay the application of this particular Clause until 1930.

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE

When I hear the Parliamentary Secretary defending this Bill and this Clause, he reminds me of a story of two old ladies who went for a ride in a four-wheeled cab before motors came into being. They tendered the cabman a 4d. piece, a 3d. piece, three pennies, three halfpennies and two farthings. The cabman looked at them and said: "How long have you been saving up for this little treat?" We have had the 4d. piece; in Clause 8 we may expect the 3d. piece on the Unemployment Fund. The others will allow the pennies, but this particular item is one of the farthings. I think it is perfectly clear that when we penetrate below the surface of the subterfuges which the Parliamentary Secretary has been put to to explain that this fund is not taken from the approved societies, we shall find that it really does consist of money which ought to be given for purposes of health and relief of sickness, and sickness benefit. It is no use pretending that all these sums of money are found like coins beneath the table. These are sums which do belong to the Central Fund of the insured or health insurance societies, and, therefore, we are really depriving the sick persons of the money to which they would ultimately become entitled.

Mr. PALING

The words "scientific robbery" have been used in a recent speech. I have heard them used in this Debate. I think the Government on one or two occasions objected to the term, but as we go through each Clause of this Bill I conclude that the term is rather too mild. The Government's predatory instincts are found in every Clause we get to. At first it was £2,800,000; then another £1,900,000 was added. Everyone thought that was the extent to which they had got. Now, apparently, there is another £200,000 which is going to be saved. I suppose the Government will probably find another nest-egg or two. I think the principle in this Clause is exactly the same as in the two previous Clauses. This money belongs to the insured contributors, and should be expended on them. The Under-Secretary argues that this has been contributed in various ways and belongs to the Central Fund. But only two of the three parties are going to be advantaged by taking this money from the Central Fund. If the three parties had an equal say, or if the excess of surplus were going to be divided equally, there might be some justification in the arrangement, but for the Government to say that this fund has accumulated in a way that could not be foreseen in 1911, and to say, "The funds belong to the dominant partner," is not to my mind a fair argument. Everyone will agree that the Government are taking advantage of their position. Another question I would like to ask is in regard to the people who may have filled a card of stamps and then lost it. If I understand it aright, this money comes into this fund. I had a case brought to my notice only a few months ago of a man living in my own constituency who asked for his card from his employer after six months. It was full up, and when he went to his work with it in his pocket, it was taken out of his pocket. He wrote to his approved society and to the Minister of Health to ask if he could receive any help. The latest information that I have is that he could receive no help. He lost the money and had to find it. I think a man would be more assured that he was being treated justly if he was sure, at least, that the three parties to the arrangement were going to have the amount equally distributed between them. Is not there any means whereby an unfortunate contributor who loses his card may be given some help in this respect?

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

I wish to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for the very clear exposition he gave of a most complicated, obscure and iniquitous Clause. I confess until I heard his explanation I had no clear idea what the nature of the transaction was, and I am not complaining of draftsmanship. The task was probably impossible. The whole of the Bill seems to he drafted in a way as if instructions were given that it should be as little clear as possible for the people whose money is taken away. I think that is a view taken by approved societies and distinguished lawyers with whom I have consulted. For my part, I tried to get hold of somebody to draft instructions which somebody could understand. I consulted the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) and asked him to find a man who had not too much experience of the Bar, and it is generally accepted that the National Health Insurance Bill was a very clear Bill. That counsel, I am afraid, has not been employed this time, or, if he has, the instructions were different to those that were given before. So far as I understand the transaction, I have not quite been able to find out what the Chancellor of the Exchequer gets out of this. I know he gets something out of it. He picks up a sum of money from stamps; he picks up another little fund; and there is a third. He is like a cat burglar who has been rummaging every drawer and picking up a little here and a little there, but what the transaction amounts to in the aggregate I did not quite understand. Did I understand it was £200,000 in the aggregate?

Sir K. WOOD

The net gain to the Exchequer is, of a certainty, £67,500, and that is the interest on the Fund I have mentioned to the Committee. He is sure to get that, and if there is a balance left over after dealing with (a) and (b)— namely, the amount after it has been paid to members to enable them to keep their benefits and after meeting the deficiency on the drug fund—if there is a balance, then up to the extent of £200,000 the Chancellor of the Exchequer will receive it in return for the services which he is rendering in providing stamps and cards for the purposes of National Insurance.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

That does not show us what the net transaction is. Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer undertaking any liability which he did not undertake before? He walks off with the whole of the £67,500, but the hon. Member does not tell us very clearly what the Chancellor is going to get out of the £200,000. He says he has got a liability of some sort or another. Is that a new liability? If it is not, why should he put that on the other side of the account?

Sir K. WOOD

Insurance stamps and cards have hitherto been provided by the State free to the insured persons of the country. Under this new arrangement the Treasury will receive as payment towards the £200,000 which it has cost so far as national insurance is concerned— the other £200,000 is in respect of the widows' pensions fund—the Treasury will of a certainty receive £67,000 odd from the interest which is on the £1,500,000 fund which is mainly provided by employers by payment for their stamps in advance. He is sure to get that £67,000. Then out of the, other fund—the destroyed stamps and cards—if there is any balance left over from that fund after making payment to insured persons to enable them to keep in benefit when subject to long unemployment and after the payment of the £600,000 deficiency on the drug fund, then the Chancellor will receive any money that is left up to the extent of £200,000. It comes to this, that out of those two funds—neither of which can in fairness be said to belong, at any rate directly, to the approved societies of the country—payment is going to be made for the insurance cards and stamps, and in addition these provisions are going to be made for the insured persons of the country. The worst that could be said against this transaction would be that in the past the cards and stamps were not paid for, but it was a gratuitous service to the Fund, whereas now they are being paid for in the way that I have indicated. In regard to lost cards and the question whether a person losing a card would suffer in consequence, if a contributor can prove the card was destroyed or lost through no fault of his own, a refund to the value of the stamps on the card is made. The greater part of the fund with which we are dealing is really provided by people who do not trouble about these stamps.

The CHAIRMAN

I imagine in this respect that this Clause makes no change in the existing law one way or the other.

Sir J. SIMON

While I am most grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for the courtesy and the fulness with which he is able to deal with these matters at breakfast time, he really has not answered either of the two questions which he was asked. It is possible, of course, that he is not in a position to answer them, but, if he is, each can be answered by a single word. The first question is this: Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if this Clause be passed, undertake to render any consideration in return that he does not render now? It must be possible to answer yes or no, but the hon. Gentleman did not answer. The second question is this: When you have finished your explanation of why, where and how it happens, what is the estimate of the amount that will be netted by this Clause?

Sir K. WOOD

I will make another endeavour. I am familiar with this question where you answer yes or no; it is the question of whether you have left off beating your wife, and you are supposed to answer yes or no to it. A judge, I believe, when counsel persists in putting questions of that kind, says, "You must answer yes or no, but you will be at full liberty to give a proper explanation after you have answered the question." I think it is generally recognised that it would be an unfair course to take, even at the Old Bailey, to expect a witness to answer yes or no without giving a proper explanation. The answer is that hitherto there was no charge for these stamps or cards. Now they are to be paid for by the Fund which I have already indicated, and to that extent the Treasury, will, I hope, benefit to the extent of £200,000.

Mr. THOMAS

I think the net result of our discussion is that as far as the particular fund is concerned the hon. Gentleman claims that it does not belong to the approved societies. If it does not belong to the approved societies it is equally admitted that it does not belong to the Government, and whilst it belongs to neither of these parties it is also admitted that quite a good claim I will not put it higher, could be made that the approved societies should use it; and we submit that having regard to these circumstances the claim ought to be admitted on behalf of the approved society. The second point that arises is this. The Chancellor of the Exchequer hopes to get £200,000 out of this trans action for precisely the same reason for which we passed the other Clauses. We think the £200,000 would be better spent on benefits.

Mr. MELLER

On the Amendment which has been ruled out of Order I wanted to make an appeal. It is very clearly set out in the explanatory memorandum of the Bill that the cost of the provision of stamps and cards and the sale of stamps has been in the past borne between the Ministry of Health, the Scottish Board of Health, the Post Office and the Stationery Office. It is hoped by certain arrangements to relieve the Exchequer of the cost —£200,000. It is not so much a question of £200,000. I want to raise my voice against the principle involved. From the very commencement of the Insurance Act the cost of provision for stamps and cards has been a cost which has been thrown upon the central authority. It should not be passed on to the societies. Some time ago when the Geddes Committee made their report they did suggest by way of economy that the cost should be placed upon the societies. That was turned down. If this proposal is to go through it is going to open the door very widely to the principle of other expenses and charges being improperly placed upon approved societies. I want to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, having regard to the small amount of saving here and also having regard to the fact that it is a, dangerous precedent and one which may be used in, the future to the disadvantage of the Government or other Government Departments, to consider between now and the Report stage as to the advisability of taking back this Clause.

Mr. J. HUDSON

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman for his courage in breaking the silence of the party opposite. It is most unfortunate that so much attention is given to a matter to which thousands are concerned when millions are being taken away from approved so ieties. An hon. Member just now referred to the fact, that a little while ago at a public dinner the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health was described as a scientific robber. In this matter however he is but a petty pilferer in little amounts on stamps and cards. If it is right to take for the benefit of the Treasury the cost of these stamps and cards, it is equally just that you should look in all sorts of other petty directions in which the Treasury might add to its account. Why not, for example, put the special cost of printing circulars and other printing that is connected with the insurance legislation and administration upon the insurance societies. A large number of small expenses of this sort that

are quite rightly borne by the central authority could be equally well transferred. It is most objectionable in a matter of this sort where the practice has become so well established after several years that the Treasury should be endeavouring to collect these funds from these petty quarters. I would remind the Minister that if it is justifiable to do this thing with regard to stamps and cards there are inumerable cases for applying this principle. There are the unclaimed balances not only of insurance societies, but of banks. There are many other quarters in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he is to be encouraged by this sort of legislation, might establish a precedent in order to help him out of the difficulties that confront him. This is a very petty matter as it stands, but it can become extremely important when considered as a precedent in other directions, and I think the Minister of Health would have been very well advised in view of the dangerous precedent by withdrawing it, and I hope we shall support the Amendment.

Question put, "That the word 'twenty-seven' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 155; Noes, 85.

Division No. 147.] AYES. [8.30. a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Davies. Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Dawson, Sir Philip Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Atkinson, C. Dixey, A. C. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Balniel, Lord Drewe, C. Loder, J. de V.
Barclay-Harvey C. M. Eden, Captain Anthony Lougher, L.
Bethel, A. Edmondson, Major A. J. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Everard, W. Lindsay Lumley, L. R.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Fairfax, Captain J. G. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Blundell, F. N Fraser, Captain Ian MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony McLean, Major A.
Brass, Captain W. Goff, Sir Park McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Briscoe, Richard George Gower, Sir Robert Macquisten, f. A.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Grant, J. A. MacRobert, Alexander M.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Greene, W. P. Crawford Malone, Major P. B.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Guinness, Ht. Hon. Walter E. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Barks, Newb'y) Gunston, Captain D. W. Margesson, Captain D.
Burman, J. B. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Meyer, Sir Frank
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Harrison, G. J. C. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hartington, Marquess of Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon. Totnes) Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Haslam, Henry C. Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Chapman, Sir S. Hennessy. Major J. R. G. Neville, R. J.
Cobb, Sir Cyril Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Newman, sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Cope, Major William Hills, Major John Waller Nuttall, Ellis
Couper, J. B. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Penny, Frederick George
Courtauld, Major J. S. Holt, Captain H. P. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Perring, Sir William George
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Howard. Captain Hon. Donald Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney,N). Philipson, Mabel
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gansbro) Huntingfield, Lord Power, Sir John Cecil
Curzon, Captain Viscount Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Preston, William
Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Jacob, A. E. Radford, E. A.
Davies, Dr. Vernon James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Raine, W.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Ropner, Major L. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Ruggles-Brice, Major E. A. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Strickland, Sir Gerald Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Rye, F. G. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Wise, Sir Fredric
Salmon, Major I. Templeton, W. P. Womersley, W. J.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Sandon, Lord Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Savery, S. S. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Shaw, R. G. (York), W.R., Sowerby) Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell Wragg, Herbert
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts. Westb'y) Tinne, J. A. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Skelton, A. N. Wallace, Captain D. E.
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Waterhouse, Captain Charles TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Wells, S. R. Major Sir Harry Barnston and Lord Stanley.
Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro) Hayday, Arthur Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Ammon, Charles George Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Snell, Harry
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Stephen, Campbell
Barnes, A. Hirst, G. H. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Barr, J. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Sullivan, Joseph
Batey, Joseph Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Broad, F. A. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Thurtle, E.
Bromley, J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Tinker, John Joseph
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Townend, A. E.
Buchanan, G. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cape, Thomas Kelly, W. T. Varley, Frank B.
Charleton, H. C. Kennedy, T. Viant, S. P.
Clowes, S. Lunn, William Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Cluse, W. S. Mackinder, W. Warne, G. H.
Cove, W. G. Maxton, James Westwood, J.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Morris, R. H. Whiteley, W.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Oliver, George Harold Wiggins, William Martin
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Paling, W. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Pethick-Lawrence, P. W. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Dennison, R. Ponsonby, Arthur Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Potts, John S. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Fenby, T. D. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Ritson, J. Windsor, Walter
Gibbins, Joseph Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Wright, W.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Grundy, T. W. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Sitch, Charles H. Sir Godfrey Collins and Mr. Garro-Jones.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Mr. MORRIS

I beg to move, in page 5, line 6, after the word "shall," to insert the words after being applied to the purposes set forth in the next Sub-section The right hon. Gentleman having decided to make this raid, the object of the Amendment is to ensure the more equitable distribution of the money. We are not quite clear what amount the Treasury is to take from this raid. As far as we gather, it is admitted to be somewhere about £100,000. Perhaps we could have some estimate.

Captain GARRO-JONES

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will offer some reply. I have been under the impression myself that Sub-section (2), paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) are largely window dressing. There is no guarantee that there will be any money left over for stamps. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman on what grounds, they must be very flimsy ones, but we might as well hear what they are, does he base the hope that there will be any money left over at all for (a), (b) and (c)?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The hon. and gallant Member has not understood.

Captain GARRO-JONES

I have just explained that.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Sub-section (1) deals only with interest, but Sub-section (2) deals with the balances, first, what it is necessary to pay under paragraph (a)—£250,000; second, the sums that come under paragraph (b)— £480,000; third, whatever is over will go to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The effect of this Amendment, as I understand it, is to deprive the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that prior claim he gets under the Clause upon the interest. In that case, interest will go in with the balances, and be available, first for paragraph (a), second, for paragraph (b), and only third for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. At this early hour of the morning, if the hon. Member who moved the Amendment attaches any special importance to it, I am not indisposed to meet him in the matter. I do not think really this is a very important matter, but if he thinks it is important, I should be very happy indeed to meet him, and I will give him an undertaking that in another place I will bring in words to do exactly what he proposes to do.

Mr. THOMAS

I think there was a general conclusion on this side of the House that after all the hours of Debate, it was becoming, useless to plead with the right hon. Gentleman. This is the first magnificent concession. At a quarter to nine, after four days, this is the first. I can only say that the hon. Member should not look a gift horse in the mouth. I think we ought even to accept the suggestion, and place it on record that some attempt was made to satisfy our pleadings, yet I would advise the hon. Member not to believe it until he sees the Report, but to take a tramp round the Lobbies.

Mr. MORRIS

I will take the right hon. Gentleman's advice and leave it to the Report stage, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Captain GARRO-JONES

I beg to move, in page 5, line 9, after the word "part," to insert the words "to an amount not exceeding seven-ninths."

I should like to inquire whether the right hon. Gentleman is disposed to extend his generosity to this Amendment. I believe it limits the amount of money which the Government take and really makes some financial concession. It will be more evidence of generosity if he will accept this Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The hon. and gallant Member is quite mistaken in supposing that the Amendment he has made would deprive the Chancellor of the Exchequer of anything at all. I do not think he has read his Amendment. Its effect would be to say that that part of the costs of providing insurance stamps and cards for widows' pensions and for National Health Insurance which is attributable to National Health Insurance, shall not exceed seven-ninths. Now, that really is nonsense.

Captain GARRO-JONES

Out of appreciation for this display of a generous attitude, I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 155; Noes, 83.

Division No. 148.] AYES. [8.50. a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George. Hartington, Marquess of
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Croft. Brigadier-General Sir H Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Haslam, Henry C.
Atkinson, C. Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsay, Gainsbro) Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Balniel, Lord Curzon, Captain Viscount Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Hills, Major John Waller
Bethel, A. Davies, Dr. Vernon Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Holt, Captain H. P.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Blundell, F. N. Dawson, Sir Philip Howard, Captain Hon. Donald
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Dixey, A. C. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N).
Brass, Captain W. Drewe, C. Huntingfield, Lord
Briscoe, Richard George Eden, Captain Anthony Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Edmondson, Major A. J. Jacob, A. E.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Everard, W. Lindsay James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Burman, J. B. Galbraith, J. F. W. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Burton, Colonel H. W. Goff, Sir Park Locker-Lampson, Com. D. (Handsw'th)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gower, Sir Robert Loder, J. de V.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Grant, J. A. Lougher, L,
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Greene, W. P. Crawford Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vers
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J.A.(Birm., W.) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Lumley, L. R.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Gunston, Captain D. W. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Chapman, Sir S. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Cobb, Sir Cyril Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) McLean, Major A.
Cope, Major William Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Couper, J. B. Harland, A. Macquisten, F. A.
Courtauld, Major J. S. Harrison, G. J. C. Mac Robert, Alexander M.
Malone, Major P. B. Roberts. Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Ropner, Major L. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Margesson, Capt. D. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Russell, Alexander Wist (Tynemouth) Waddington, R.
Meyer, Sir Frank Rye, F. G. Wallace, Captain D. E.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Salmon, Major I. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Samuel, A. M, (Surrey, Farnham) Wells, S. R.
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Sandon, Lord Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Savery, S. S. White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Shaw, R, G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Neville, R. J. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Skelton, A. N. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Nuttall, Ellis Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Penny, Frederick George Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine.C.) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wise, Sir Fredric
Perring, Sir William George Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Wemersley, W. J.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Woodcock, colonel H. C.
Philipson, Mabel Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Wragg, Herbert
Power, Sir John Cecil Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Yerburgh, Major Robert O. T.
Preston, William Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Radford, E. A. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Raine, W. Strickland, Sir Gerald Mr. F. C. Thomson and Major Sir H. Barnston.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Templeton, W. P.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Alexander, A. V. (Sneffield, Hillsbro') Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Ammon, Charles George Mayday, Arthur Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Snell, Harry
Barnes, A Hirst, G. H. Stephen, Campbell
Barr, J. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Batey, Joseph Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Sullivan, Joseph
Bromley, J. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) John, William (Rhondda, West) Thurtle, E.
Buchanan, G. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Tinker, John Joseph
Cape, Thomas Kelly, W. T. Townend, A. E.
Charleton, H. C. Kennedy, T. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Clowes, S, Lunn, William Varley, Frank B.
Cluse, W. S. Mackinder, W. Viant, S. P.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Maxton, James Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Cove, W. G. Morris, R. H. West wood, J.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Oliver, George Harold Whiteley, W.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Paling, W. Wiggins, William Martin
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Dennison, R. Ponsonby, Arthur Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Fenby, T. D. Potts, John S. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Ritson, J. Windsor, Walter
Gibbins, Joseph Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Wright, W.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Grundy, T. W. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall, F. (York, W. B., Normanton) Sitch, Charles H. Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Warne.