Commons Sitting of 1 April 1926

Preamble
The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (No Standing Orders applicable),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:
Marriages Provisional Order Bill.
Bill to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 13th April.
Chosen Syndicate Bill [Lords],
Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
London, Midland, and Scottish Railway Bill,
Mid-Nottinghamshire Joint Railways Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Bermondsey Borough Council (Street Trading) Bill (by Order)
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday, 13th April.
Pontefract Corporation Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday, 13th April.
Dunfermline and District Tramways (Extensions) Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; to be read the third time upon Tuesday, 13th April.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS,

  PENSIONS ADMINISTRATION (SCOTLAND).
  Mr. T. KENNEDYasked the Minister of Pensions if he has reached a decision regarding the proposed transfer of Scottish
  2350
  pensions administration from Edinburgh to London; and if he can now communicate that decision to the House?
  The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): Yes, Sir. After full review of all the circumstances, I have decided to bring back to London at a conveniently early date the remainder of the work of awarding and issuing war pensions now carried out in the Ministry's regional office in Edinburgh. I need hardly add that, as. in the case of Ireland, Wales and other parts of the Kingdom where a similar change has already been made, the work of the local offices of the Ministry throughout Scotland, by which the personal touch with the pensioner is maintained, is in no way affected by this change.
  Mr. KENNEDY: Does the Minister of Pensions, in coming to this decision, realise the very keen disapproval with which this decision will be received in, Scotland—a disapproval which is shared by every body representative of ex-service men in Scotland.
  Major TRYON: The opinion is not unanimous, as I think the hon. Member's question suggests, but I have no doubt that this policy, so successfully pushed on by the Labour Government in other parts of the country, will be as successful in Scotland as it has been in England and Wales.
  Mr. KENNEDY: Will the right hon. Gentleman, in answer to the deputation-which waited on him recently, representative of the Scottish Members of this House, convey to them the details of the alleged economy that will be realised from this?
  Major TRYON: I have addressed a letter to those Members, in which the total, which is £19,000, is given, and have explained some of the circumstances that have brought about this change.
  Commander COCHRANE: Can the Minister give any assurance regarding the future employment of the men who will be displaced?
  Major TRYON: I am very glad to be able to assure my hon. and gallant Friend that these men, who have done such excellent work, have been very successful in the recent examination for permanent posts, so that the position of the majority of these very good men is secured, and I am very glad of it.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: May I ask what arrangements the right hon. Gentleman is making about employment for the minority, who are now to be discharged from employment?
  Major TRYON: Is it not possible for the Ministry, which has already decreased its staff by over 20,000, to confine reductions to England, but the reduction has been less in Scotland than in other 'parts of the country.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: Is it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to discharge Scots clerks, and take on English clerks to do their work?
  Major TRYON: No, Sir; the staff of the Ministry throughout the country is not distributed on a national basis.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: Did the right hon. Gentleman consult, the Secretary of State for Scotland before he took this drastic action?
  Major TRYON: The decision is obviously the decision of the Government.

  POLICE STATIONS (MATRONS).
  Colonel DAYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is yet in a position to state whether the suggestion of the National Council of Women as to the employment of women at all police stations to supervise women prisoners is likely to be carried into effect?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): My inquiries will necessarily take some time, and I am not yet in a position to say how far the present arrangements will require to be modified. I may say that I received the deputation Only a few days ago.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman, before taking steps to force local authorities to employ women police, take into consideration the fact that a large body of women themselves are against the employment of women police?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: If I may say so, that does not arise out of this question. The question relates to the employment of women at police stations, as to which I have already made a definite
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  announcement. It is a different question from that of women police.
  Miss WILKINSON: Referring to the original question, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will bear in mind the statement of a very large number of representative bodies of women, the National Council of Women alone dissenting, asking that fully qualified women police under constabulary regulations should be employed, and not women merely employed on police duties but without the status of police officers?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: May I say that I received a very important deputation from numerous women's societies last week, and I think there is a little misapprehension as to the difference between women police and matrons at police stations. Matrons at police stations are not in the same category as women police.
  Miss WILKINSON: All that I wanted to ask the right hon. Gentleman was whether he would bear in mind that the large mass of the women of this country would not be satisfied merely with the employment at police stations of women not on a police basis?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I should not like to be so ungallant as to say that they would never be satisfied; I would prefer to say that I will do my utmost to satisfy them.

  CLUBS (EXTENSIONS OF HOURS).
  Sir HARRY BRITTAINasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that an application made by the Priory Constitutional Club, of Acton, to the local inspector of police for the extension of one hour, 10 p.m. to 11 p.m., on the 13th January last, was refused; whether the refusal of the extension in question was due to any Regulations made by the Home Office, or by the Commissioner of Police, which limited the number of occasions on which extensions might be granted; and, if so, whether these Regulations will be published, se that clubs become fully acquainted with them?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As has already been explained to my hon. Friend in recent correspondence with the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the

  2353
  grant or refusal of such an application is a matter in which the Commissioner of Police must exercise his discretion, having regard to all the circumstances of each individual case. It cannot be dealt with by hard and fast rules, and no question of the publication of such rules, therefore, arises.

  TWO-SEATER TAXI-CABS.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYasked the Home Secretary how many two-seater taximeter cabs it is proposed to license to ply for hire in London; if he can state what is the average first cost of these vehicles; and what is to be the official name for them?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Any cabs presented for licensing which comply with the Commissioner's requirements will be licensed, and I have no power to impose any limitation of numbers. With regard to the second part of the question, I can only refer the hon. arid gallant Member to the figures as to costs which appear in the Report of the Two-Seater Committee. With regard to the last part of the question, no official name will be prescribed.
  Commander BELLAIRS: When will the first of these taxis be plying for hire?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As already announced, on Tuesday of next week new Regulations will be issued. It is not for me to say when the taxis will come on. All I can do is to frame Regulations which will admit two-seaters, and let other people put them on.
  Sir H. BRITTAIN: Has not the London Press already given a name to these. cabs?
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: Has the Government considered the advisability of the Home Office putting on these two-seater cars themselves?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I doubt whether the hon. Member would agree to an Estimate for the purpose.

  TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION).
  Captain GARRO-JONESasked the President of the Board of Education how many compulsorily retired teachers have failed to qualify for pension under the Teachers Superannuation Act?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Lord Eustace Percy): I am not clear to what the hon. and gallant Member refers by the expression "compulsorily retired." I have no record of the number of teachers who had not, by the age of 65, completed a sufficient number of years' service to be eligible for pension benefits under the School Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1918–1924.

  RACING NEWS (TAXATION).
  Mr. MACQUISTENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether is aware of the taxation of sporting newspapers in France; and whether, seeing that the practice of betting in Great Britain is fostered by the publication in the Press of the odds and other racing news, he will consider, with a view to the discouragement of the practice of betting as well as the increment of the revenue, the advisability of imposing a tax or one halfpenny a copy on every newspaper which publishes any betting news or other data calculated to assist or foster the practice of betting?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Ronald McNeill): I have no information as to the first part of the question. The suggestion in the second part has been noted.

  POULTRY FARM LANDS (TAXATION).
  Colonel Sir ARTHUR HOLBROOKasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the desirability, in order to encourage egg production in this country, of placing poultry farm lands on the same basis as ordinary agricultural lands for the purposes of assessment for taxation; and whether he Is aware that the poultry farm industry has been materially retarded and in many cases closed down owing to those in the industry having been assessed for Income Tax under Schedule D?
  Mr. McNEILL: As a result of recent cases in the Courts, it has been decided that, normally, the profits of poultry-farm lands must be regarded as covered by the Income Tax assessment under Schedule B on the annual value of the

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  lands occupied. The position sought by my hon. and gallant Friend has. therefore, in general, been reached.
  Sir A. HOLBROOK: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some lands in the neighbourhood of Basingstoke are assessed to Schedule B?
  Mr, McNEILL: That is what I said.

  TREASURY NOTES (CANCELLATION).
  Colonel DAYasked the Secretary to the Treasury the number of Treasury notes that were cancelled for the 12 months ended the last most convenient date?
  Mr. McNEILL: Between the 25th March, 1925, and the 25th March, 1926, there were cancelled 406,024,673 one pound notes. 201,474,207 ten shilling notes and currency notes certificates to the value of £16,370,000.
  Colonel DAY: Was a like number of notes re-issued to the amount cancelled?
  Mr. McNEILL: Of course.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Was this clear deflation or were bank notes issued in lieu of any of these Treasury notes cancelled?
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: Where has all this money gone? Who has got all these notes?
  Mr. STEPHEN: Have there been any notes issued in place of those cancelled?
  Mr. McNEILL: Yes, of course.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Then this amount does not represent a diminution of the currency at all if bank notes have been issued instead.

  POOR RELIEF.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Minister of Health whether he has any figures showing the approximate number of persons at present drawing outdoor relief or other benefits under the Poor Law; and whether he can give an approximate estimate of the amount of money that is being paid out in this form per week at the present time?
  The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): The average number of persons in receipt of out-relief under the Poor Law in England and Wales in January, 1926, was 1,067,887; and the average weekly cost of such relief in money and kind was £324,554. The average number of persons (excluding lunatics in county and borough asylums) in receipt of institutional relief during the same period was 233,537. Information as to the average cost of institutional relief is not available.
  Mr. BECKETT: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how that compares with last year?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Not without notice.

  ROAD WIDENING SCHEME, MIDDLESBROUGH.
  Miss WILKINSONasked the Minister of Health if he will state the reasons for his refusal of an inquiry into the Linthorpe Road widening scheme at Middlesbrough; whether the corporation applied for a loan in connection with the scheme; and whether he will be prepared, in view of the feeling aroused among the citizens, to consider again whether an inquiry might be in the best interests of all concerned?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I limited the loan sanction in this case to a sum which I considered reasonable. I did not agree to hold a local inquiry, because the questions raised seemed to me to be matters for the town council and the local electors, and that is still my view.
  Miss WILKINSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the largest meetings that has ever been held at Middlesbrough has been held on this matter and a strong protest was raised against the action of the Minister in refusing an inquiry, and in view of the great feeling that has been engendered, does he not think it is in the interest both of the corporation and the citizens to have an independent inquiry?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I should think it is for the electors to show their feeling the next opportunity they have.

  RECREATION GROUND, PURLEY.
  Mr. HUGH EDWARDSasked the Minister of Health in view of the fact that, as the result of a public inquiry by an inspector of his Department into the matter of the purchase of the Higher Drive Recreation Ground at Purley, the Ministry agreed to the purchase by the urban council of Purley on the stipulated condition that certain portions of the grounds should be re-sold by the council, and that his Department has now con-seated to waive this stipulation, whether he will say what the reasons are for its change of attitude in the matter?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Since the purchase was approved, representations have been made by the council that if the stipulations were fully carried out the facilities for playing pitches would be seriously reduced, and on further consideration I have agreed to waive the stipulations as regards part only of the land in order to meet their views.
  Mr. EDWARDS: In view of the fact that all the available facts were placed before the Department at the time of the inquiry, and the inspector himself made the report on which the Department acted, what new facts have been brought to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman?
  Mr, CHAMBERLAIN: The new fact is precisely the one mentioned in my answer.
  Mr. EDWARDS: If I bring new facts on the other side, is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to reconsider the matter?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member produces any new facts, I will certainly consider them.

  DEPRECIATED CURRENCIES (IMPORT TAXATION).
  Sir A. HOLBROOKasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the advisability of imposing on goods imported from countries with depreciated currency some tax based on the rate of exchange so as to place British goods on a level with foreign imported goods when placed on the market?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): I have been asked to reply. The course proposed by my hon. and gallant Friend is precluded by the provisions of most of our Commercial Treaties. Countries with which such Treaties are in force can claim that no higher duties shall be imposed on their produce and manufactures than on similar goods, the produce or manufacture of any other foreign country.
  Mr. BECKETT: Has the right hon. Gentleman had a similar claim from any other country?
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I did not know the hon. and gallant Gentleman represented a foreign country. I thought he was speaking as a Member of the House.
  Sir A. HOLBROOK: Is there not some arrangement of a similar character now working in Spain with great success?
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No. The provision that has worked with great success in all our commercial treaties is the most-favoured-nation Clause, under which we are precluded from imposing differential duties against countries within its ambit.

  POOR LAW RELIEF (SCOTLAND)
  Mr. T. KENNEDYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of persons in receipt of Poor Law relief in Scotland at the end of February in the years 1924, 1925 and 1926, respectively; and the main causes of any variation in the figures for the three years in question.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): As the answer involves a table of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the answer:
  Complete particulars for the month of February are not available and could not be obtained without calling for a special return from all Scottish parishes. The number of poor of all classes, including dependants in receipt of Poor Law relief

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  in Scotland at 15th January for each of the years referred to was as follows:

  1924

  …

  …

  …

  256,006

  1925

  …

  …

  …

  211,024

  1926

  …

  …

  …

  247,171

  Destitute able-bodied unemployed and their dependants included in these figures were as follows:

  1924

  …

  …

  …

  128,119

  1925

  …

  …

  …

  80,691

  1926

  …

  …

  …

  113,899

  With regard to the last part of the question, I am not in a position at present to make a statement, but I am having inquiries made.

  STEAMSHIP "BLAIRHOLM" (WIRELESS OPERATOR).
  Mr. T. KENNEDYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the steamship "Blairholm" left Ardrossan for Iceland on 25th February, 1926, without complying with the Merchant Shipping (Wireless Telegraphy) Act, 1919; and what were the circumstances under which his Department permitted this ship to sail contrary to law?
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The steamship "Blairholm" arrived at Ardrossan at midnight on 25th February and sailed for Iceland in the afternoon of the following day, without engaging a wireless operator. The engagement of an operator should have been insisted on, and I am taking steps to see that similar cases do not occur in future.
  Mr. KENNEDY: Will any administrative action be taken in regard to this case?
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: We are making sure that this does not occur again. It was rather an exceptional case. She did not start from there. She was on a voyage from Italy to Iceland and put in for a few hours at this particular port. I am told that there was an attempt made to get an operator, but none was available.

  AUSTRALIA (STATE GOVERNORS' SALARIES AND ALLOWANCES).
  Sir GERALD STRICKLANDasked the Secretary of State for Dominion
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  Affairs whether, seeing that deferred pay, i.e., pensions, as well as travelling allowances, are paid to Australian State Governors from Imperial funds, he will take steps to increase either to a point at which these offices could be held without loss; and whether, before appointment to such offices, candidates are warned of the difference in necessary expenditure since the salaries were fixed?
  The SECRETARY OF STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. Amery): I am afraid I do not see any way to take action in the sense suggested in the first part of my hon. Friend's question. As regards the second part, the fullest available information is given to those concerned.

  CASH-ON-DELIVERY SERVICE.
  Mr. H. EDWARDSasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the dissatisfaction among a large section of the tradesmen throughout the country in consequence of the operation of the cash-on-delivery system in connection with the delivery of parcels by his Department, he can see his way to ascertain the views of the various chambers of trade on the matter?
  The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER -GENERAL (Viscount Wolmer): The views of the various chambers of trade have been fully represented to the Postmaster-General and were carefully considered, together with the representations from all other sources, before the decision was taken to introduce an inland cash-on-delivery service.
  Mr. EDWARDS: May I ask whether the Department is prepared to give any consideration to the resolutions which have been passed by chambers of trade throughout the country against the cash-on-delivery service?
  Viscount WOLMER: Yes.
  Mr. EVERARD: Will the Postmaster-General take into account the resolutions which he has received from chambers of agriculture in regard to this matter?
  Viscount WOLMER: The Postmaster-General has received a very great number of resolutions on this subject in various senses, and it was only after giving the most careful consideration to all the

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  representations made from all quarters that the Government adopted the cash-on-delivery service.

  STRAY DOGS, ALDERSHOT.
  Colonel DAYasked the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been drawn to the methods adopted by the military police at Aldershot for the destruction of stray dogs; and will he state what steps have been taken by the authorities concerned to prevent a repetition of the methods recently adopted?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington- Evans): The military police at Aldershot are under orders to take all stray dogs, and retain them for three days. If at the end of that time, they have not been claimed by their owners, the dogs are handed over to the civil police. So far as I am aware, no stray dog has been destroyed by the military police in the Aldershot Command.

  DISARMAMENT.
  Mr. MORRISasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is prepared to recommend the setting up of a Committee of the House of Commons, consisting of Members of all parties, to consider the replies of the British experts to the questions from the Council of the League of Nations relating to disarmament and to make such recommendations as the Committee think desirable before the answers are sent to Geneva?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Austen Chamberlain): The questionnaire issued by the League is of a highly technical nature and is already under consideration by a sub-committee of the C.I.D. I am not prepared to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion.
  Mr. MORRISasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the promise made at Locarno to give Germany equality of treatment, if he will say whether the Government is prepared to recommend to the Disarmament Conference the acceptance by all nations of a progressive reduction in armaments, in accordance with the basis of reduction as determined by the Allies for Germany, and as set forth in the Versailles Treaty?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I do, not understand the reference to Locarno, and I am not in a position to make any statement as to the line which the British representative may eventually take.

  TUNIS (ARREST OF MR. MACNAMARA).
  Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now make a statement to the House on the ease of Mr. Macnamara, a British subject, who suffered arrest in humiliating circumstances at the hands of the French authorities in Tunisia; whether he will say what protection was afforded to this British subject by our consular representatives; and what action the Government is taking in the matter?
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has anything further to report regarding the arrest and incarceration of Lieutenant. Macnamara in Tunisia; and whether he can state when the British Consul was made aware of this gentleman's arrest?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I have now received a report of the triad and I am in agreement with the opinion expressed by His Majesty's Consul-General at Tunis that the hearing was full and impartial and that the accused was ably defended by his counsel. No information regarding the case reached any British consular officer until two days after Mr. Macnamara's release on parole, when the facts were telephoned to His Majesty's Consul-General at Tunis by a British visitor in Gabes to whom they had been related by Mr. Macnamara. Mr. MacLeod at once made representations to the local authorities in regard to the conditions of Mr. Macnamara's imprisonment, and subsequently engaged counsel for the defence, with whom and with Mr. Macnamara he held consultations in Tunis. He later proceeded to Sousse, where he held further conference with counsel and attended the trial. I am satisfied that Mr. MacLeod did everything he properly could in Mr. Macnamara's interest.
  As the term of imprisonment inflicted was the minimum prescribed by the

  2363
  decree for the offence of which the accused was convicted, the action taken by His Majesty's Government was limited to representations to the French Government that in view of the hardships suffered by Mr. Macnamara, during his fifteen days' incarceration the remainder of the sentence should be remitted if there were power to do so. As Mr. Macnamara has now returned to this country, I do not think that I can usefully take any further action.
  Mr. H ORE-BELISHA: Is the right hon. Gentleman absolutely satisfied that this gentleman was properly charged and properly convicted?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I have already stated that I share the opinion of our Consular Agent, that Mr. Macnamara was very ably defended and had a perfectly fair trial.
  Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is a fact that there was a, British Consul or Vice-Consul at Gabis during the time that Mr. Macnamara was incarcerated, and was it not the duty of this official to be in touch with these proceedings, or was it not the duty of the French officials to report the proceedings to him? In what way did this arrangement break down?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I think—I am speaking subject to correction—that there was a Consular Agent at Gabis. I must say that Mr. Macnamara was not wholly free from blame in the matter himself in not taking advantage of such opportunities as he had to communicate at once with the representatives of his country. I think the French local authorities ought to have made communication to the British Consular Agent.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the reports of this episode, and especially those to the effect that this gentleman did send letters out which never reached our Consular Agent? Is it not usual in foreign countries for our consuls to be informed whenever a British subject is arrested?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think that can be the practice. I do not think that in this country it is the practice of
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  the police to notify foreign consuls on the arrest of any of their nationals.
  Mr. HORE-BELISHA: In giving his official reply, did the right hon. Gentleman base it entirely on the statement of our consular authorities, or has the Foreign Office seen this man, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Macnamara substantially repudiates that he was given adequate assistance by our consul? Has the right hon. Gentleman investigated that?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I was not aware that Mr. Macnamara had repudiated having received proper assistance from the consul, and I should be very much surprised to hear that he made any such charge. He was seen by an officer of my Department, and he has derived some satisfaction for himself by publishing his story at length in one of the leading journals, where I had the pleasure of reading it.
  Mr. BECKETT: Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether any Government Department had any extra knowledge, beyond the passport, of this gentleman's presence in the country until he was arrested? Was he there on any kind of Government business?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: No. Certainly he was not. He went with a friend as a tourist. I think the friend returned, and he pursued his journey further into the interior. I do not think that it is really of any advantage to him or to anyone else that I should say more on this subject. When you are travelling in foreign countries, respect for the lawful authorities of those countries and a certain reticence in the expression of your sentiments is to he commended to all travellers.
  Lieut.-Colonel POWNALL: Are we to understand that in future British visitors to Tunis cannot, even if they are indiscreet, be kept in jail under the conditions under which Mr. Macnamara was kept for 15 days?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: The conditions of Mr. Macnamara's imprisonment were certainly very unfortunate, but it must be remembered that it was a remote part of the country, and this was the only jail available. I think that, with greater wisdom on the part of some local officials,

  2365
  he need not have been subjected to the hardship to which he was subjected at the earlier stage.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: May I ask the nationality of this gentleman? Is he a Scotsman?

  ROYAL NAVY.

    CASUALTIES (DEPENDANTS' PENSIONS).
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether instructions have been given that dependants of men killed on service shall not in future have their allotments reduced or forfeited before a reasonable time has elapsed to enable them to adjust themselves to their new positions; and whether he will give instructions that the pension, if any, can be made payable as soon as possible?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Davidson): No modification of the treatment of allotments of men killed on service—details of which were notified to the hon. Member in reply to his question of the 25th November last—has been authorised. In regard to the latter part of his inquiry, every effort is made in such cases to issue the pension, if any, without delay, but the hon. Member will doubtless realise that in certain instances inquiries are necessary which inevitably take time.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Is the Department doing everything possible to see that in future allotments are not stopped on the loss of the breadwinner of the family?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: Yes, certainly.

    IRISH RECRUITS.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can state what are the reasons which have induced the Admiralty to refrain from granting facilities whereby youths resident in the South of Ireland and desirous of joining His Majesty's Navy may be assisted to make the journey to Belfast, which is now the nearest recruiting station available to them, and to maintain themselves for the necessary period; and whether, in view of the importance of keeping the connection between Ireland and His Majesty's
    2366
    Navy, the Admiralty can review their decision so that some assistance may to given to those who are now unable to submit themselves through no fault of their own?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: The grant of travelling expenses from the South of Ireland to Belfast would not be justifiable, seeing that sufficient numbers of suitable men are available in other districts. In this connection it should be remembered that only a small proportion of candidates for the Royal Navy are finally accepted.

  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES (WORSTED TRADE).
  Mr. DIXEYasked the Prime Minister whether the decision of the Cabinet with regard to the safeguarding of the worsted trade has yet been reached; and, if so, what is the decision?
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have been asked to reply. In accordance with the general practice, which I explained to the House in an answer given on the 16th November last, of which I am sending a copy to my hon. Friend, I am unable to make any statement on this matter at present.

  ARMY, NAVY AND AIR FORCE (COMMON SERVICES).
  Mr. ROBERT HUDSONasked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to publish the Report of the Committee set up, under the chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Carmarthen, to consider and report on the amalgamation of services common to the Army, Navy and Air Force?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): If my hon. Friend will be good enough to postpone his question until after the Recess, I hope then to be in a position to give him an answer.

  COAL MINING INDUSTRY.

    GOVERNMENT COMMITTEES.
    Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have set up, or

    2367
    propose to set up, special machinery for consideration of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on the coal industry?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes, Sir. Committees have been appointed by His Majesty's Government to examine in detail certain of the major recommendations contained in the Royal Commission's Report. I may add that it has been decided, for the time being, to entrust the Minister of Labour with the general oversight of such matters affecting the coal industry as may require, in one form or another, the intervention of His Majesty's Government. The primary responsibility will, of course, remain with the Secretary for Mines.
    Mr. MacDONALD: Arising out of the wording of that answer, may I ask whether the recommendations referred to are those affecting the Government, or those affecting the employers and workmen?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I think, speaking from memory, that they are the recommendations which have been embodied in the reply which we gave after the meeting of the Miners' Federation.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I was not quite clear whether the right hon. Gentleman said a Committee or Committees have been set up. Will they start at once, and continue sitting, or will they wait until after the Easter holiday?
    The PRIME MINISTER: They have already begun sitting, and are sitting.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. MacDONALD: For the convenience and guidance of the House, may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, how you propose to take business to-day?
Mr. SPEAKER: Perhaps it may be for the convenience of the House that I should indicate the subjects of which hon. Members have given me notice, and the order in which I propose to take them, which is the order in which the notices reached me. The first subject is the question of disarmament, on which I hope
2368
we may enter immediately. I suggest that about 1.15 we may take the second subject, to be raised by the hon. Member for Rotherbithe (Mr. B. Smith), relating to the two-seater taxicabs, to which he takes some objection. The third question is to be raised by the hon. Member for Penrith and Cockermouth (Mr. A Dixey), relating to the Safeguarding of Industries. That might come on at about 2.15. The fourth question, to he raised by the bon. and gallant Member for North St. Pancras (Captain Fraser), relates to the restrictions on the running of omnibuses in London, a matter which comes under the Ministry of Transport. Those are the subjects which have reached me.

ADJOURNMENT (EASTER).
Resolved,
"That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday, 13th April."—[The Prime Minister.]

ADJOURNMENT (EASTER).
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the House do now adjourn."— [Commander Eyres Monsell.]
ADJOURNMENT (EASTER).

  DISARMAMENT.
  Mr. PONSONBY: I take advantage of this opportunity to raise the question of disarmament, which it is impossible to raise on any other occasion. When the Service Estimates come before the House, although expenditure on armaments can be discussed, the general and broad question of disarmament cannot properly be debated. It is a question of very great importance just now, and it is likely to be discussed in the period before us on many occasions. There are two methods of approaching this question, the method of examining what view the people in the various countries, more especially in our own country, take with regard to armaments and war, and the other method, which I propose to adopt to-day, is that of ascertaining from the Government precisely how matters stand, more especially with regard to the forthcoming conference. Before I address certain questions to the Government, I would like to remind the House of one or two general considerations showing the specific obligations which exist and which bind us to consider the question of disarmament. The House will remember that in the Covenant of the League of Nations, Article 8:
  "Members of the League recognise that the maintenance of peace requires the reduction of national armaments to the lowest possible point consistent with national safety, and the enforcement by common action of international obligations."
  That was the first recognition of the pressing nature of the question. Later on, or at the time when the Treaty of Versailles was submitted to Germany, the German Government in their Note said:
  "Germany is prepared to agree with the basic idea of the army, navy and air regulations, provided this is a beginning of a general reduction of armaments."
  The Allies, in reply to that, said:
  "The Allied and Associated Powers wish to make it dear that their requirements in regard to German armaments were not made solely with the object of rendering it impossible for Germany to resume her policy of military aggression; they are also the first step towards that general reduction and limitation of armaments which they seek to bring about, as well as the most
  2388
  fruitful preventatives of war, and which it will be one of the first duties of the League of Nations to promote."
  That makes it clear that there is a very strong obligation upon us. I do not want to continue with other quotations, but from time to time it has been re-asserted that the necessity of disarmament is a pressing need. The Geneva Protocol insisted on disarmament as a condition. That was a very important consideration. In the explanatory memorandum of the Third Committee the phrase occurs:
  "A conference for a reduction of armaments is indissolubly bound up with the whole system."
  That is to say, the Protocol could only come into force provided a Conference on Disarmament were called. That was not the case with the Locarno Treaty. The Locarno Treaty spoke of disarmament, and the Foreign Secretary, in various speeches, referred to disarmament and said disarmament ought to follow, but the Conference which is about to be held is not "indissolubly bound up" with the Locarno Treaty, and therefore we are faced with the very serious situation, that if the forthcoming Conference in May breaks down or proves abortive, we shall still have the obligation—should Germany enter the League of Nations and the Locarno Treaty be ratified—not only to defend a fully-armed France against a disarmed Germany, but also to defend a disarmed Germany against a fully-armed France. That is a very serious consideration and shows how the Locarno Treaty differs from the Protocol, in not having regarded disamament as an absolute essential to security. I need not quote any more passages to show the various obligations which rest on us and other nations to secure disarmament, but the time for action has now come because, whereas under the Protocol Disarmament Conference would have been called in June, 1925, we have already delayed it for a year, and people in Germany are becoming rather impatient as to whether these promises and words are eventually to result in action.
  The second general consideration which I should' like to bring to the notice of the Government is that we have arrived at a moment now, if Germany joins the League of Nations, as we all hope will be the case in September next, when Germany within the League of Nations has to secure a position of equality with the other

  2389
  nations who are members of the League—an equality of status, an equality of position and the abolition of any distinction between the former Allies and the former enemy. In order to secure that end only two ways are possible. Either Germany must be allowed to arm again to the same standard as other Powers—and that proposal I think we must dismiss as impossible—or the Powers who are now nit tubers of the League should forthwith disarm to the same standard as that which was imposed upon Germany. One or other of these two alternatives is absolutely imperative, and we shall be faced with that question towards the end of the year.
  The third consideration which I bring to the notice of the Government is the present position, amid all this talk about disarmament, with regard to expense. We found ourselves in this country in 1914 spending £72,000,000 on the Fighting Services. In 1926–27 the Government propose to spend from £117,000,000 to £120,000,000 on the Army, Navy and Air Force combined, and in addition they are beginning a programme of naval construction to cost £50,000,000 over four years. They are going to spend for the next six or 10 years upon Singapore—a purely provocative measure—a further £12,000,000, and it is quite obvious there is likely to be a further large increase in the cost of the Air Force. These figures may be declared to be misleading, but the League of Nations "Armaments Year Book" for 1925 gives the cost reduced to pre-War prices and the cost comes to £82,000,000 in that year, that is to say, 10 per cent. over the level of 1914. Competition is going on, perhaps not publicly but surreptitiously, and we know that, in spite of Germany being disarmed, in spite of the German Fleet being at the bottom of the sea, there are more armed forces in Europe to-day than there were in 1913. When people look at that situation and realise that they were told that the last War was "a war to end war" it is little wonder if they regard statesmen and Governments as pure and unadulterated hypocrites.
  This Conference is to be held on 15th May, and I do not think its importance can be over-emphasised. It is a first step, and the first step is always important. Germany, the United States, and Russia are to be in this Conference—
  2390
  that is to say, we are to have a real, all. inclusive Conference which in composition will be better than the League itself. I sincerely hope that the words of Mr. Houghton, United States Ambassador to this country, when he declared that the Conference had been poisoned beforehand and was doomed to failure, may prove inaccurate, but we must necessarily feel somewhat apprehensive as to how this Conference is going to be conducted, and we sincerely hope that Geneva in May will not represent the same spectacle for the derision of the nations as it presented in March last.
  I want to address certain specific questions to the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who is representing the Government in this Debate. My first question is: Has the hitch which, so far, prevented the Soviet Government from consenting to attend the meeting at Geneva, been overcome? I do not want to enter into details with regard to this matter, but I was glad to see the other day in the newspapers that Dr. Nansen was giving his good offices to act as intermediary between the Soviet Government and the Swiss Government. I hope his efforts will be successful. I trust His Majesty's Government are also exercising influence in order to make sure that whatever difference there may be between the two Governments will be tided over. I think if Russia is to be excluded from this conference, it will make a very serious difference. Certain eastern nations will not commit themselves to any sort of disarmament settlement or solution if Russia stands outside. It is of the utmost importance that Russia should be included, and those who declare that the Russian objections are founded on the fact that Russia is reluctant to come into this conference are not cognisant of the view of the Soviet Government on the subject. I would only remind the House of the very clear statement of M. Rykoff on this question, when he said:
  " It should be clear to every worker in the Union of Soviet Republics and every worker abroad that the Soviet Government would be the first, to agree to disband all the armed forces of our country and dismantle the armament industry, provided only that other countries do likewise."
  I can say that in many conversations which I had two years ago with M. Rakovsky, time and time again he

  2391
  referred to this question of disarmament and expressed the desire which his Government had of getting on with it, of making some advance, and testing the sincerity of the European Governments as to making an end of this hideous form of competition. Therefore, as I say, the presence of the Soviet Government at this Conference is of the utmost importance, and I hope the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will be able to give us some assurance that there is a prospect that they will be represented.
  The second question I want to ask is this: This is called a preparatory Conference, and I want to ask in what sense it is preparatory? Preparatory for what? Is it preparatory for a further Conference, in which more nations will be included, and which will come to certain distinct resolutions and decisions, or is it only preparatory as advisory to the League of Nations, which does not include the United States, or Russia, or even Germany yet? That is to say, I want to know exactly what is the procedure, and, if some progress is made at this Conference, what are the future steps that are going to be taken? I understand that Lord Cecil of Chelwood is to be our representative at this Conference. I think the Government are fortunate in having among the Members of the Cabinet a man whose devotion to the League is well known and who, I think, fully realises that the subordination of Nationalist ambitions is essential to the promotion of international cooperation. I think that in him we have a representative who can be trusted, and I do not think any party in this House would doubt his sincerity in the work which he is going to undertake. But what is Lord Cecil going to do, and what is he doing now?
  That is the point. He is a representative of His Majesty's Government. What instructions has he got? Is he going to be told that we have got to go out there with an open mind? That is a most objectionable idea. An open mind means an empty mind, and anybody who goes to a conference with an open mind is constantly swayed backwards and forwards, and no sort of decision is come to. Everybody knows, who has any idea of dealing with business in which he is specially interested, that if he goes with
  2392
  a clear cut proposal and with his mind made up in a particular direction, he can fill other people's empty minds and do a great deal to carry his own way. I want to know from the Government: Is any special plan being worked out? This is rather an important point, and I should like an answer to it. By whom is it being worked out? Have the Foreign Office been studying this question in all of bearings, and have they made up their minds that this country can go to the Conference with certain specific proposals? Or is the matter being simply left to the Committee of Imperial Defence, dominated, as it is, by the Services? Are we simply going to consult generals, admirals, and air marshals as to what they think? This is a matter of policy, of high policy, of foreign policy, and it is not a matter in which the Services should have the major voice. They must carry out whatever plan His Majesty's Government decide upon, and I venture to say that if our representative is simply to be a shuttlecock between the Services of this country, and go out with an open mind, and without clear instructions, then necessarily this Conference is bound to fail.
  I want to ask if there has been any preliminary interchange of communications between this Government and other Governments on the subject, discussing certain methods, ideas, projects, and procedure before the Conference meets, It is a vast subject, and it requires careful research. The League of Nations has done a good deal of preparatory work, but it requires also some firm resolution on the part of His Majesty's Government. Then, I want to ask whether the. proceedings and discussions will be public, because we are a little in the dark. We have not got papers, and we have been kept in ignorance to a large extent as to what this Conference implies and what is going to be done. I sincerely hope that the hon. Gentleman will give us some enlightenment to-day.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson): I am not quite sure whether I understand the hon. Gentleman. Does he mean whether the proceedings at the forthcoming Conference will be made public?
  Mr. PONSONBY: Yes. I want to know whether the Conference will be held in public or whether it will be a private Conference, whether it will be held in public, whether the discussions will be public, whether reports will be issued to the public giving an account of what has taken place in the Conference, or whether we shall hear nothing at all about it till it is all over? One of the most important questions that will be discussed will certainly be the manufacture of, and traffic in, armaments. A certain amount of preparatory work has been done. The hon. Gentleman will know the Report of the League of Nations on Arms, Ammunition, and Material of War, which gives very full information. We are bound on this point as specifically as on the general point, because in the Covenant of the League of Nations we find:
  "The members of the League agree that the manufacture by private enterprise of munitions and implements of war is open to grave objections."
  I do not think the House and the country have noticed what the Temporary Mixed Commission that sat at Geneva have published with regard to the manufacture of armaments, and I would ask the indulgence of the House if I just read to them their conclusions, which I am very anxious should be made as public as possible. On this subject of the un-trammelled private manufacture of armaments, this Commission reported:

  "1. That armament firms have been active in fomenting war scares and in persuading their own countries to adopt warlike policies and to increase their armaments.

  2. That armament firms have attempted to bribe Government officials, both at home and abroad.

  3. That armament firms have disseminated false reports concerning the military and naval programmes of various countries, in order to stimulate armament expenditure.

  4. That armament firms have sought to influence public opinion through the control of newspapers in their own and foreign countries.

  5. That armament firms have organised international armament rings, through which the armament race has been accentuated by playing off one country against another.

  6. That armament firms have organised international armament trusts, which have increased the price of armaments sold to Governments."

  I do not think I could have found words for a more terrible indictment of the system of private armament manufacture
  2394
  than has been given in this official document. I could, only I do not want to occupy the time of the House much longer, give illustrations on very nearly all those counts, and I daresay many other hon. Members could too. There is something rather hideous about this business of the manufacture of armaments that goes on, and the cynical indifference as to whether these armaments are used by our own forces or by the forces that are drawn up against us. My hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton) the other day gave an illustration of the guns at the Dardanelles and Gallipoli being of British manufacture, and I can bear that out, because when I was in Constantinople, at the end of last century, there was a man who, one might almost think, was attached to the Embassy, who was one of the representatives of one of our big armament firms, and he was so successful that he received an order from the Turkish Government by which the Dardanelles was so magnificently equipped with modern armaments.
  12 N.
  There is in Bedford Park to-day a gun, captured by the Bedford Regiment, on which there is an inscription describing the gallant way in which the gun was captured, and, on the other side of the gun, is the inscription of Armstrong, Whitworth and Co. The Conference on armaments which reported a. short time ago really exposes the most hideous state of affairs as to the export of arms going on. We ourselves in three years exported £14,000,000 worth of armaments to various countries, and the astonishing thing is that in 1920, when we had hardly ceased fighting the Russians, we immediately sent out £45,000 worth of heavy artillery and £1,68,000 worth of military stores. The dictates that actuate the armament firms, that is to say, the desire for profits, are so strong, that they are completely indifferent as to whether they are equipping our potential enemies or our actual enemies. We see the state of affairs in China now. The Chinese, the most peaceful people in the world, have been fighting for the last two years. Why? Because it was a pity that the surplus stock of munitions, manufactured by the Christian Western Powers, should be wasted, and so it was sent to China.
  Commander BELLAIRS: Did any of the arms come from the Soviet Government?
  Mr. PONSONBY: Yes, but they got their arms from Koltchak and Denikin, who were supplied by us. An official of the League of Nations has lately been to China. He travelled in an international train which went right through the war area. He there found French and Italian officers in command of Chinese regiments on both sides. He found 200 brand new French aeroplanes, and a great quantity of munitions lately supplied to China by the Western Powers. I do not want to delay the House, but one could give in stance after instance of how this traffic is going on. We in this country are going on with it. My constituents are turning out shells, tanks and armoured cars to-day. I believe they have designed a magnificent new tank. I believe it is a tank with three guns, and can go over everything, and has got impenetrable armour. I believe another department of the same firm is devising a shell which will penetrate that armour. My constituents support me, but they are, by economic pressure, by the screw of our present social system, kept at work on manufacturing these armaments, and they find all that the Government say to them is, "Starve, or forge instruments for your own destruction." That is the position in which they find themselves. This hideous world scandal goes on, and I ask the Government to-day to say whether we are going in a hole-and-corner way to Geneva to talk the thins; over, or whether we are going to make, courageous proposals, and ask that al, end shall be put to this terrible world scandal?
  I believe we can take the lead. We are in a position to take the lead. Are we going to take the lead, or are we going to behave, as we did in Geneva in March, as a third-class Power? Courage in international affairs is everything. When a small nation takes a courageous attitude, it gives a lead to the rest of the world, like Sweden did recently. A great Power like ours, if it takes the lead, if it makes a big offer, if it goes further than the Washington Conference with regard to naval armaments, and sees that a comprehensive scheme, including not only naval armaments, but air and land armaments is come to, then I believe we may make a move of which this country can be proud. It is necessary that there should be a comprehensive scheme. It is neces-
  2396
  sary that all the Departments which minister to this business of war should be included. It is no good detaching the Navy, although that concerns us very closely. The Air Force is most destructive, and that must he dealt with. So long as armaments exist, there can he no question that these pacts and these treaties are of absolutely no use. Security can only conic when armaments have been destroyed, and until you get that, you cannot really make any progress at all. As Lord Grey said in his book, "Great armaments lead inevitably to war." Some of us saw that before 1914, and we were told that we were fools to call attention to it.
  Competition has begun again. We do not see it openly, like we did before 1914, but it is going on behind the scenes among the experts, who are fighting one with another to see who can make the most destructive gas, and science is being enlisted in order to perfect these diabolical engines of destruction. The people are watching. They have been watching for eight years to see whether this "war to end war" is going to mean anything at all. They see that the statesmen lack courage, and are obsessed by the fear of the unprovoked attack of some aggressive Power. There is no such thing. No war was ever caused by the unprovoked attack of any aggressive power. The enemy is always presented in that light by each country. It has never been the fact. This fear is groundless. This lack of courage is deplorable, and until we get some fearless statesman who will go out and speak on behalf of this country, and take a lead in the right direction, we must be content to drift on in the old way, as we are doing at present.
  I do ask the House, even though we are raising this at the fag-end of this part of the Session, on an Adjournment Motion, to realise that this question is going to be the overshadowing question of the future. All that I ask for now is that we should have full information from the Government—not the sort of information given just now by the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary, who dismissed the question by saying he could say nothing. We must be told what is going to take place. We must have the full data, and know if plans are being prepared, and I hope we shall hear that the Government are making full and adequate preparations

  2397
  for dealing with this question seriously, comprehensively, and courageously.
  Lieut.-Colonel HEAD LAM: No one on this or any side of the House, can but share the hon. Gentleman's wish that we should have at the forthcoming Conference on Disarmament a full and ample discussion upon all the ways and means by which disarmament can be brought about. But I think the hon. Gentleman is, perhaps, rather inclined to over-estimate the importance of a conference upon disarmament as a means of preventing war. I quite agree with him that competition in armaments is a wholly bad thing, and may ultimately bring about a state of things which will lead to war. We had an example of it not so very long ago, and many of us suffered from it. At the same time, disarmament in itself could not possibly prevent war, because it is perfectly clear that every State must be armed to a certain extent. Every State must be armed to ensure peace at home, and peace on its marches, and you must remember that all Governments ultimately rest upon force. But far more important than discussion about disarmament is the spirit which is behind it. So long as you have the spirit which exists in the world to-day, war is always a possibility, and no sane statesman, who is responsible for the government and the safety of his country, can possibly neglect to see that his arms are efficient.
  This may sound a very unsatisfactory state of things, but I submit that it is common sense, and, therefore, when the hon. Gentleman talks as he has just talked, and suggests that soldiers, sailors and airmen must not be allowed too free a hand at any Disarmament Conference, it seems to me he puts those people in a very unfortunate position. It is perfectly clear that if you grant the premise I have laid down—and if you do not grant it, I am afraid we must agree to differ, because it seems to me, in the present state of the world, as I have already said, you must face the possibility of war—soldiers, sailors and airmen, who are finally responsible for providing our defence organisation, must he allowed to give their advice absolutely untrammelled with any idea except that of the defence of the country.
  2398
  The hon. Gentleman seemed to imagine that the object of soldiers, sailors, and airmen was to make war. Allow me to say—and I do not speak for soldiers, sailors and airmen any more than anyone else who has served in the forces speaks for them—that to suggest such a thing is absolutely wrong. The very last people in the world who want war are soldiers, sailors, and airmen, because they know exactly what war is, and, therefore, their whole object is to prevent war. It is a sign, no doubt, of optimism; indeed, it is the very essence of Christianity, that we should all try our utmost to do everything in our power to eliminate the possibility of another war so far as it is humanly possible. But it is equally the sign of an optimist to run away with the idea, that because we want a thing very much, other people want it, too. I think in this country we have shown since the War, more than any other country in the world, our desire to reduce armaments, and to try to maintain the peace of the world. That being the case, I think we can do very little more than we have done ever since the War ended to emphasise that fact and to try and show the nations of Europe that we are really in earnest in this matter and that, if it be within our power, we will bring about disarmament, which must, however, be general. Disarmament by us alone would be useless, and I believe the hon. Gentleman himself will admit that it would be useless. It would do more harm than good. You must get a general acceptance of the principle of disarmament before you can take any real step forward in that direction. There is that form of optimism to which I have just alluded which evokes caustic comments, the sort of optimism which makes a person believe, that if with head hidden in the sand, he cannot see his enemy, he will also remain unseen by them. This is alleged to be the characteristic of the ostrich which even moved the patient Job to irritation;
  "the ostrich … is without fear because God bath deprived her of wisdom, neither bath he imparted to her understanding."
  Optimism is a fine quality and ignorance may be bliss—it is also very English—but of all the dangerous combinations that which is the most

  2399
  dangerous is a combination of ignorance and optimism.
  Mr. RENNIN SMITH: The speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman for Barnard Castle (Lieut.-Colonel Head-lam) to which we have just listened is the kind of speech which we have had in this country and throughout Europe in the last 100 years. It indicates an attitude of mind which so long as it persists will inevitably lead to new wars in the future. I regret that the hon. and gallant Gentleman did not relate his attitude of mind to the concrete situation with which we have to deal. Anyone who looks over Europe sees one outstanding fact, namely, a condition of one-sided disarmament among the several political societies of Europe. The figures are really very impressive, when we compare the state of society in 1914 and at the present time. I find that Germany, Austria and Hungary, in 1914, had 1,176,000 soldiers, whereas the British Empire, France and Italy, neglecting the other of our Allies, in 1914, had 1,830,000 soldiers. That means that the preponderance of Allied soldiers was half as much again as that of our enemies in 1914. I find in 1924, 10 years later, that the three armies of Germany, Austria and Hungary amounted together to 165,000 troops, whereas the armies of the Allies amounted to no fewer than 2,073,000, whereas the Allies, in 1914, had half as many mobilised troops as our enemies, to-day they have between 12 and 13 times as many. If we take the matter from the point of view of expenditure, then, comparing Great Britain and Germany, we find that in 1913, just before the War, we were spending £72,000,000, whereas Germany was spending £81,000,000, and that, according to the latest figures available, those for last year, we were spending £115,000,000 on the three Services, whereas the total expenditure of Germany had shrunk to £22,000,000.
  This unilateral disarmament is the outstanding fact of this problem with which we have to deal. My hon. Friend the Member for the Brightside Division of Sheffield (Mr. Ponsonlay) has put forward in a most cogent and impressive speech the foundations of that policy, and he has asked very pointed questions of the Government, which I hope will receive
  2400
  very full and detailed answers. I would emphasise, from this point of view, that the continuance of a one-sided disarmament can only be a menace to the future peace of the world. We cannot go on enforcing unilateral disarmament and hope to have a peaceful development of European society. We must face that fact. Germany will never consent, inside or outside the League, to go on in perpetuity as a disarmed nation in a world so largely armed. Moreover, we cannot expect to face all the implications of the Locarno Pact when we are giving guarantees to the most highly-armed Power, on the one hand, and, on the other, are giving similar guarantees to a nation which has no armaments at all.
  We shall be driven to abandon this position of unilateral disarmament. So long as it continues we are inevitably faced with a steady tendency to increasing competition in armaments among those Powers committed to armaments. We can see this perfectly clearly in Great Britain. While Germany is disarming we are pitting ourselves against France in respect of air service, and partly against Italy and to a less extent against Japan, and, in respect of naval service, we are pitting ourselves partly against France, and much more against the United States and Japan. We are only just at the beginning of this competition, and, if we work out the logic of this policy over another 10 years, we shall see exactly the same thing taking place as took place between the Boer War and the Great War in the matter of progressive armaments. Therefore, I shall be stating the view of every Member if I say that the only alternative to rapidly increasing armaments which culminate in war is that of facing frankly this problem of hew to proceed as rapidly as possible from a condition of unilateral disarmament to one of general and universal disarmament. If that be a fair statement of the case, then we are driven to the position that, if we are to make any headway at all with this supreme problem, we can only hope to do it if Great Britain is prepared to give a lead in action. We cannot expect Germany or the defeated Powers to do any more. The only possible lead and the only possible movement in politics from unilateral disarmament to general dis-

  2401
  armament must come from one of the major victorious Powers in the late War.
  I want to press upon the Minister, first, the question that was put by my hon. Friend: What do the British Government really intend to do in the course of this year to face that problem of getting away as rapidly as possible from unilateral disarmament? Are they prepared to accept the German model as defined in the Peace Treaty as the model for Great Britain, at d are they prepared to recommend it as the model for all the Powers that will be meeting round the conference table at Geneva? Are they prepared to set out definite, detailed recommendations for handling the problem with regard to the British Army, the British Navy, and the British Air Service? I would specially stress that it is no use trying to separate these three Services. It is no use isolating the Navy and making recommendations regarding the Navy alone. There call be no effective treatment of this problem, as recent experience in America has shown and as loud and increasing complaints on the side of France have shown, which does not accept a frank treatment of Ill three. Services, and which does not handle the problem along this unified line.
  I would like to suggest that easily the most practical step we can take is not to be over much concerned about the Army problem, and not to be so much concerned about the Air problem. We hold a supreme position as the great naval Power in the world. It has been our distinction in military history to be the outstanding naval Power in the last 200 years, and therefore, if there be any practical contribution that Great Britain can make in this year, it is definitely to offer a practical programme for naval disarmament to this forthcoming Conference. I want to ask the Minister whether he is prepared to say to the House this afternoon that the British Government will recommend a definite naval programme for disarmament provided that other rival Powers will agree to that programme? Are they prepared to submit that kind of programme?
  We on this side of the House are often accused of not being prepared to submit details. I would like, if I may, to put one or two definite suggestions forward. Will the Minister say to us to-day that he is prepared to recommend to the forth-
  2402
  coming Disarmament Conference that Great Britain will take a naval holiday, say, for 15 years, if the other rival Powers will agree to it? Will the Minister say to us this afternoon that he will be prepared to recommend to this Conference that Great Britain will apply this idea of a naval holiday not to one particular category of ships, but to all classes of ships which comprise the British Navy? Will he, for example, suggest that there should be an immediate general reduction, say of 25 per cent. or 30 per cent., of all categories of ships now in existence if other Powers are prepared to accept the same kind of policy? Will he take the view that in future we will not build any of the larger kind of cruisers, that we will make the kind of limitation on the size of ships that was laid down for Germany in the Peace Treaty itself, that capital ships shall have a maximum size of 10,000 tons, that light cruisers shall never go beyond 6,000 tons, or destroyers never exceed 8,000 tons, or torpedo boats never go beyond 200 tons? Will he make that proposition, not in isolation, but with a condition precedent that other rival naval Powers will accept this standard.
  The Minister might go forward with a, practical programme of this kind, which, I submit, would not in its working out undermine in the very least the security of Great Britain, because, even from a military point of view, the whole working out of this policy would be entirely relative. If we agreed to it the others would agree to it, and our relative naval strength would remain the same, and therefore, as far as a Navy can secure any population, we should be just as secure under these proposed conditions as we are at the present time. I venture, therefore, to press these very practical questions upon the Minister this afternoon. It is no use, if I may say so with all respect to the previous speaker, merely to use the language of words at this time. The only thing we can do, if we are to escape a further period of competition in armaments, and if we are to save the possible effective breakdown of the Locarno Pact and the League, the only thing, to avoid these things is to strike out along this other line. There is a cumulative weight of evidence to make it perfectly clear to all thoughtful persons that the time has now come when, if we are to profit by the experience of the last

  2403
  15 years, we must do so, not as a matter of idealism, but as a matter of practical common-sense in the midst of this civilisation in which we now live.
  I do, therefore, press very strongly upon the Minister that he should get away from the language of promises, the language of fears, and the language of high sentiment which so often characterises discussion on disarmament in this House, and come down, like a practical business man, prepared to realise that nothing will be done in the matter of disarmament from any point of view unless we take the initiative. We have the moral right to take the initiative, because we are the biggest firm, the biggest partners, and it is up to us to do something. I should like the Minister to devote himself frankly and honestly, and in some practical and definite way, to giving us some assurance that we are going, in the next seven or eight years, to get away from the language of talk, and get really to the language of first-class statesmanship, and some kind of action in regard to disarmament. If the hon. Gentleman will only come to us in this spirit and face the problem in this way, he will soon find that he is the centre of a new kind of Conservative party in this House and in this country. He will soon have the Chancellor of the Exchequer falling upon his neck, and we shall not have the Conservative party coming here with this pitiful display of the Economy Bill. We will not have the Minister of Education running round all kinds of corners in order to avoid his obligations. If, in the ideal spirit of the Prime Minister, we can have a different policy applied in connection with this matter there will be millions of pounds available for a real policy of education and in other problems which require solution.
  I would, therefore, press very strongly and very urgently upon the Minister that to-day, at the end of the Session, whilst we are surrounded by memories of ancient ceremonies, of ancient things in regard to the nature and way of human life, when we are passing away from old pagan ceremonies, from the dead past to the living present and to a still more living future, when in the name of universal religion we are breaking down old customs, old powers, old tyrannies, and looking forward to new hopes and new
  2404
  beliefs, he should, in the spirit of all this, jump off his pedestal and give to the nation, and not only to this House, a real message that in 1926 we shall have done with talk, and that we are coming out as great leaders in a common-sense practical policy for the disarmament of the nations of the world.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: My hon. Friend who has just sat down was quite right when he said that the gratitude of very many people, not only in this House, but further afield, would be given if the Government could make some such pronouncement as that which has been asked for. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will not, I am sure, think that I am not very appreciative of his courtesy to this House, and the great ability that he displays when I say that I regret that his Departmental Chief, the Foreign Secretary, has not found it possible to be present, for it would have been better if the reply could have come from the Foreign Secretary. However, doubtless the hon. Gentleman will make up for that by accepting the invitation of the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Rennie Smith). It seems to me that the solution of our difficulty here in regard to disarmament, at all events a, possible solution, lies in the direction of complete openness and frankness. We cannot possibly tolerate another Geneva Conference like the last, where you have wirepulling and logrolling going on behind closed doors.
  Disarmament has only a chance of being brought about if the appeal is taken away from admirals, generals, and air marshals, from politicians, newspaper proprietors, armament-makers, and the rest of them to the common people themselves. They are the people who are bearing the burden. In every country—in the United States, France and Spain—the difficulty is in getting the rank and file to march with willingness as before, towards militarism. I believe that the ordinary working people of this country, and of all other countries, look with horror on a continuance of this expenditure on armaments with the inevitable result that if it goes on this competition will lead to another great war. The hon. and gallant Gentleman, the Member for Barnard Castle (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam) spoke about having to face the possibility of another war. Yes, of course, we must

  2405
  face the possibility of war, but what causes war but the continuance of a policy which makes war inevitable.
  It is perfectly useless to leave this question to the professional fighting men. You might just as well leave the problem of the abolition of horse racing to the bookmakers and jockeys as to call together generals, admirals and air marshals to discuss the policy of a reduction of armaments. They are perfectly honourable, are these people—their whole life has been spent in the making of their respective services efficient, and their whole soul is in their work—I know from my own experience. This matter is quite outside the run of their work, and they are constitutionally incapable of working for the limitation of armaments. Anyone doing it would be looked upon by their comrades as traitors. Here and there you get an exceptional man endeavouring to do something of the sort, and he is usually opposed by his own professional chiefs.
  There are countries very much concerned in this matter. Take, for instance, our good friend France, which is passing through a financial crisis at present and yet is keeping a greater army in arms than before the War, and also an enormous air force, three times the size of our own. She has a great conscript army. More submarines than ever are being built by her. She has built more submarines than Germany did in her heyday before the War. I am sure the French people will be with us in trying to get rid of this intolerable burden. At the same time, I think that we must on our side be prepared to yield up a good deal too. I would throw into the scale our right to blockade by sea, if you can get general agreement. We should be willing to carry matters still further under the Washington Convention and limit the number of cruisers, so as to show that we on our side are prepared to make sacrifices; otherwise, you cannot have the Powers agreeing. They would say: "While you have certain vessels we must have a similar number of others; while you have a fleet of cruisers, we mast build submarines." We must be prepared to show that we are willing to make great sacrifices. But these sacrifices will save us money spent on war and for other destructive purposes.
  Consistent with national safety we have expressed our willingness to reduce armaments,
  2406
  but has that been done? Then, again, in finance we possess a weapon. England, America, Holland and Switzerland have financial powers in their hands in relation to the other Powers, and they should refuse to allow their nationals to lend money or to give credit, and export credits and trade facilities should not be granted in relation to any Power that stands in the way. We do not want another Brazil coming along in the way that Brazil lately did. Therefore, it is necessary for our purpose to go into such a Conference as that which has been indicated with a settled plan. I do not know what plans the Conference may have. So far no definite and thought-out plan has been put before us, and the absence of such a plan, I am afraid, suggests that it does not exist. If the Conference fails it means that Germany will be permitted to increase her armaments, and it may be to start building submarines again. That would be a tragedy, and that tragedy will lie on the British Government as much as on anyone else for not making the proper preparations.
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: This matter is one of very great importance, and I am very sorry that it should have been raised, as the hon. Member for Bright-side (Mr. Ponsonby) says, and quite rightly, in an almost empty and weary House after an all-night sitting. This question of disarmament is of the utmost magnitude for the whole world, apart from considerations of humanity and apart from considerations as to the progress of civilisation. An enormous expenditure would be saved if we were able generally to disarm all over the world. In fact, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) pointed out quite clearly that we were spending £120,000,000 sterling in the ensuing year on our fighting services. Of course, if we could get general and complete disarmament the whole world over this huge sum, so far as this country was concerned, could be used to feed the roots of national life.
  Commander BELLAIRS: What about pensions and everything else? Not £117,000,000?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Well, I took the figure of the hon. Gentleman opposite, and anyhow they are vast sums; but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Barnard

  2407
  Castle (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam) pointed out, we cannot really do this until we can dispel once and for all the international suspicion which now exists, and that I do not think can ever be done until the leading nations of the world show that they are in earnest and set a good example. I would like to say that His Majesty's Government are in earnest about this question. Hon. Members know what was the origin of this Preparatory Conference. At the last Assembly of the League, all the Governments represented concurred in reaffirming the principle that disarmament ought to be preceded by security, but, in spite of that reaffirmation, there was a very strong movement indeed in the League for proceeding without delay with the preparation of a general programme with a view to convening later an International Conference. The result of that strong movement was that a resolution was passed inviting the Council to set up a Commission with this purpose, and, in accordance with that resolution, the Preparatory Commission was set up in December last. As hon. Members are probably aware, it consists of representatives of all the State members of the Council. Six other States who are members of the League were also invited, for the reason that they had a certain geographical situation which enabled them to discuss this disarmament problem from various points of view. Three non-members of the League were also invited—Germany, the United States and the Soviet Government—and I may say that all these invitations were accepted, except that sent to Russia. More recently, invitations have also been sent to the Argentine Republic and Chile.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: When the hon. Gentleman says the invitation was not accepted by Russia, ought he not to say that if the Conference took place in Switzerland it could not be accepted, but that othewise it would have been accepted.
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I am coming to that in answer to a question by another hon. Member. Further, provision was also made that any State not represented on this Commission should be able to submit memoranda to the Commission, and that it should be able to be called in support of any particular memoranda that
  2408
  any State wished to submit. Now I wish to deal with the Russian question, on which I was asked a question by the late Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in the Labour Government. I very much regret that Russia is not going to be represented. When the invitation was issued to Russia, the Soviet Government replied to the Council that they were genuinely anxious to participate in this business of disarmament, and to be represented, but that, pending the settlement of the dispute with Switzerland, they could not send delegates to the meeting if it took place on Swiss territory. At the same time, or shortly afterwards, the Council received a letter from the Swiss Government, and it may be worth while to quote a few words from this letter. The Swiss Government stated:
  "The Federal Council was willing to renew its assurances that any delegates whom the Soviet Government might send to the Preparatory Commission for the Disarmament Conference would receive at Geneva the same treatment as the delegates of any other Government, and in particular would enjoy the same facilities for entering Switzerland, and the same privileges and immunities in the conduct of their business with the Commission, with all such measures of protection as the Swiss authorities might think it necessary to take in order to ensure their safety."
  On receipt of that letter the Council of the League wrote immediately to the Soviet Government quoting the Swiss assurances, and saying they could not believe that in this matter the Soviet Government wished to insist on any exceptional treatment, and, therefore, hoped they would accept the invitation to be present. But I am sorry that, in spite of this, the Soviet Government have up to the moment declined to come in. As the late Under-Secretary pointed out in his speech, it is especially unfortunate, because the attitude of those countries bordering upon Russia must necessarily be affected by the fact that Russia does not come in.
  Mr. PONSONBY: May I ask whether we may know something about Dr. Nansen acting as intermediary, about which I put a question?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I believe that Dr. Nansen did act as intermediary at one stage, but, after all, it is really a domestic concern between Switzerland and the Soviet Government. It is really and entirely a domestic concern, so far as the dispute is concerned.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: Is it not the case that the publicly-stated reason why the Soviet Government have refused to send delegates to the proposed conference is that the Swiss Government have not apologised for the murder on Swiss territory of an Ambassador of the Soviet Government?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I really do not very much want to go into the question of what is a domestic dispute. There was a long discussion between the Soviet Government and the Swiss Government, and I understood that at one time an amicable understanding had almost been reached; but for the moment., I am sorry to say, that dispute has not been quite settled. But the door of the Preparatory Commission is still wide open if the Soviet Government want to come in, and if they decline to come in, well, really, it is their own doing, and it is nobody else's fault.
  This Preparatory Commission, as I want to make quite clear, is to have the help and co-operation of all the organisation of the League. There will be a permanent Advisory Commission, which will be able to advise in regard to military, naval, and air plans, and there is going to be a. Joint Commission representative of the economic, the financial, and the transport, organisation of the League, and also of the workers' group of the governing body of the International Labour Office; and any other experts whom it is thought necessary to bring in will be invited to attend. What are the powers of this Preparatory Commission? It is very important to realise this, that the Preparatory Commission is only an advisory body and cannot come to any effective decision. All it can do is to advise and to make its report to the Council. Moreover, no International Conference on Disarmament will be convened by the League until the basis of such a Conference can be agreed upon.
  The hon. Gentleman the late Under-Secretary asked me what exactly was meant by the word "preparatory," and what would be the next stage in the proceedings. When the report of this Preparatory Commission is ready, it will go to the Council, and, after the Council have deliberated upon it, it will go to the Assembly of the League, but probably it will not go to the Assembly of the League before next year—in September—
  2410
  probably not, because the question is enormously complicated, and a. great deal of ground has to be cleared in the first instance. I think the hon. Gentleman the late Under-Secretary will agree with me that any eventual success depends enormously upon the care with which the preliminary work is carried out. If an agreement be reached, as I hope it will be, there will then be a Disarmament Conference, and when we get to that stage we shall then not only be discussing the principles, but the manner in which those principles can be carried out.
  With regard to the actual agenda before this Preparatory Conference, it will consider, as hon. 'Members are aware, certain questions that have been brought up to it. That list of questions was settled in December of last year by the Committee of the Council, after very difficult and very careful discussion. These questions are framed in general terms; for instance, I can give one or two of them.
  Mr. DALTON: Might we not have them all, if they are not too long?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I afraid they are too long.
  Mr. DALTON: Can we have the substance of each of them?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I understand they have all been made public already, and are in the published documents of the League; but I think I had better give one or two of them in general form. This is one of the questions:
  "What is to be understood by the expression armaments'?"
  Again:
  "What is to be understood by the expression limitation and reduction of armaments'"
  "By what standards is it possible to measure the armaments of one country against the armaments of another?"
  "Can there be said to be offensive as welt as defensive armaments?"
  "Can civil and military aircraft be distinguished for the purposes of disarmament?"—
  and so forth. Those questions, as I say, are framed in general terms, and that is the kind of business which will be discussed in that forthcoming Conference.
  Mr. PONSONBY: This is very important indeed. Am I to understand that the Conference is going to be just simply a convening of representatives of the

  2411
  great nations to make definitions, and that no sort of proposal is going to be brought forward—simply an academic discussion of these definitions?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: No; that is the worst of my merely having picked out certain parts of questions. The whole of these questions are published, so that I thought that in all probability hon. Members knew of them. I simply happened to pick out a few short sentences—to pick out a part of some of the questions that are going to be asked. One question, as a matter of fact, was omitted from this list, because the Committee of the Council could not arrive at an agreement about it, namely, that of international supervision so as to make sure the countries would keep within the limits of armaments; but I understand that matter is very largely safeguarded by Article 11 of the Covenant. I have got it here, but I will not read it. The task of this Commission will be to engage in a preliminary exchange of views as regards this list of questions, and it will refer, if necessary, as I pointed out just now, to the technical committees attached to it the examination of purely military and economic aspects of the problem.
  1.0 P.M.
  The late Under-Secretary put two specific questions. He raised the question of the manufacture of arms and the question of the traffic in arms. In regard to the manufacture of arms, this presents, as he knows, great difficulties. For instance, in some countries there is no State manufacture of arms at all and the Governments of those countries have to buy from private firms. That is merely one of the difficulties; but my general answer to the question he put to me is that nothing can be done until the reply has been received by the. League to the questions they have sent out to the different Governments. The League has drawn up a questionnaire and sent it to the various Governments concerned, and until the replies have been received nothing can be done in the matter. Up to the moment, practically no replies have yet come in. In regard to the question of traffic in arms that question was really dealt with last summer. A convention was drawn up by the Temporary Mixed Commission of
  2412
  the League. Our representatives were Lord Cecil and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Major Hills), and as a result a convention was actually signed. It was largely due to the efforts of Lord Onslow in regard to the negotiations that the convention was eventually signed. Consequently, that question has really been dealt with.
  Some definite questions were put to me by the hon. Member for Brightside. He asked me two things. Firstly, what the policy of His Majesty's Government was: and secondly, what were the instructions which had been given to our representative? With regard to the instructions to Lord Cecil, they have not yet been framed, hut there is a Committee now sitting dealing with this question under the chairmanship of Lord Cecil. That Committee is looking into the whole matter. In reply to the questions put to me about the Fighting Services I may say that this Committee is having the assistance of many organisations outside the Fighting Services. The Report is nearly complete, and when it, has been presented the instructions to Lord Cecil will be determined. Until those instructions have been framed no possible decision can be taken as to when they will be announced to the House. Although Lord Cecil will know when he goes to Geneva the general lines upon which the Government have decided to go, I do not think that any hard and fast rule can be imposed upon him. I am quite sure that if such a rule were imposed with regard to particular details it would be quite impossible for him to negotiate when he got there.
  With regard to the policy of the Government, I want to make it quite clear that they are ready to assist whole-heartedly in any international steps leading to a general measure of disarmament. In answer to the question put to me by the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Rennie Smith), I may say that Lord Cecil will certainly go out to Geneva prepared to urge some definite scheme of disarmament. Naturally, we took the initiative at Washington with the United States of America in regard to naval disarmament, as we were a great naval power, but in all probability it will be more appropriate for some great military Power at Geneva to take the initiative in regard to military disarma-

  2413
  ment. This point was mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for Barnard Castle, but it was rather overlooked by the hon. Member for Penistone. The first definite step has already been taken, because at Washington an important Treaty was signed between five Powers imposing very definite limits on the Navies of those Powers. I think it was unfortunate that similar restrictions were not applied to submarines, but I am sure that very careful consideration will be given to the question of how much further these principles can be carried, and no doubt they can be carried a good deal further. The Government hope they will be carried further, and they are going to d their best in this direction.
  I would like to say a word or two in regard to the three different arms of the fighting Services. In regard to the Navy, you have to remember that we did considerably reduce our naval force under the Washington Treaty and after the War. We have also to remember that we are in a very exceptional position, because we have very long and vulnerable trade routes, and we must do nothing to endanger our power of being able to protect them. I hope that submarines may be included in the general principle of the limitation in future. The naval question is much easier to deal with, in a sense, than the military question, because with the Navy you have chiefly to do with ships and guns. With the Army it is much more difficult, because there is no definite unit like a ship. So far as the British Empire is concerned I think the hon. Member for Penistone rather agrees with this—our Army is very small having regard to its world-wide commitments and enormously long land frontiers. The size of our Army is not regulated by the size of the Army of any country in the world, and it is only large enough to suffice for the duties it has to carry out, but even here the Government are very anxious to co-operate in any general scheme of limitation.
  I will now deal with the Air Force. Of course, the limitation of the Air Force is a very difficult question, and it is airiest impossible to divest civil aircraft of all military character. Our Air Force was reduced almost to vanishing point after the War. Since then development programmes have been carried out, but
  2414
  here again the Government would welcome any scheme of reduction and limitation which would result in a measure, of equality being established between the Air Force maintained by ourselves and any other country. I can assure the House, speaking as a representative of the Government, that His Majesty's Government will not be behindhand in the international efforts now taking place to secure the peace of the world. Lord Cecil is going to be our representative, and I think that is a sufficient guarantee that our case will be conducted, not only with experience and power, but also with sympathy. We must-not place our hopes too high, but I do anticipate that something substantial will emerge from the Preparatory Commission, and that it will be one more, milestone on the long and difficult road to universal peace.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: I am sure the House has listened with very great interest and marked attention to the statement made by the Under-Secretary to the effect that His Majesty's Government are going to make at the forthcoming Conference definite proposals for naval disarmament.
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I did not specify any particular branch of the fighting Services, but I said that our representative would go to Geneva to make definite proposals.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: I am sure the statement just made by the Under-Secretary will meet with general agreement, and I think it is even more hopeful than the interpretation which I placed upon his statement. I understood the hon. Gentleman to say that he preferred that proposals for military disarmament should come from the great military Powers, and I took it that our representative would make proposals more on naval grounds. I should like to ask the attention of the House to what I regard as a very essential feature of this problem. It is no good talking about our trade routes or international suspicion of one another. It seems to me that we have got to face the fact that in every country in the world and in our own country there are men who make preparations for mass murder, and the use of mass murder machines, and who make out of this business a handsome annual dividend. If that be so, and if there be an economic advantage to be gained out of the preparation of armaments, it seems to me that it is along the

  2415
  line of attacking the people who make profits out of munitions that we must go.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Barnard Castle (Lieut.-Colonel Headlana) rather made out to-day that the nations which were prepared were the safest. I would like to ask: Is France in a safer position to-day than disarmed Denmark which possesses an army which you could scatter with a decent fire brigade? Is France safer than Switzerland which during the War was encompassed by armies on the march on all sides, some sympathising with Germany and others sympathising with France? They were united in one federation and came through free from the horrors of the Great War. We cannot get away from the fact that in this country it is our duty to deal with our Government, and leave other Parliaments and other Labour authorities to deal with their Governments. We cannot get away from the fact that there is a murder-profiteering trust in this country. I possess a copy of the prospectus issued by Messrs. Vickers on behalf of the Chinese Government, and they have contracted to sell them aeroplanes. There is no dispute that this firm is making large profits by supplying munitions of war to the Chinese. We have also been told that French armament firms are supplying China with munitions of war.
  1.0 P.M.
  We know that in the past arms were supplied by other countries to the Riffs, the Chinese, and the forces in Ireland, and these armament firms axe making large profits by supplying arms all over the world. Until we take some effective steps to stop profiteering in munitions it does not seem to me that we shall get very much further in the direction we desire to travel. We have seen the Report of a celebrated court martial in Japan in which a Japanese admiral is adjudged guilty of accepting bribes in the execution of his duty from one of the important engineering firms in this country supplying the Japanese Government with munitions of war. We have got to stop that, and, when war does come, we must have some machinery by which we can concentrate on stopping anybody making profit out of this business. That must be done. We have the amazing spectacle of people lending
  2416
  money at 5 per cent. and 6 per cent. and so on for the continuance of war in every country and mankind seems helpless in face of it. When the nations go to war and investors of that nation make money out of it, something has got to be done to stop it, and I suggest that here is a way out.
  Let it be henceforth known in every civilised country in the world that the democracy will not honour loans borrowed for the purposes of war. Fay as you go. If we can make shells, let us pay for them. If we buy explosives and cotton and all the. rest of it, let us pay for them, but let there be no loans and no profits. What would happen then? If the world goes round from mass meeting after mass meeting that we will not honour any loan borrowed for the purpose of running mass murder, then the Government of the day in every country has two alternatives. One alternative is that they may still get loans from the financiers and the other is that they may make a weekly or monthly capital levy. Those are the only two alternatives. The financiers will not lend money when the working classes all over the country are proclaiming that they will not honour those bonds, and that when the day comes when they take office those bonds will he cancelled; there will be no lending of money. Then there must be a capital levy; just as in human life and in men's legs and arms and of small men's businesses, so too must there be a capital levy of the rich men's wealth and credit for running a war. If there is a capital' levy every month for running the war, I venture to say that in every country in the world within two months there will be a peace party that will stagger the warmongers.
  What other way is there? What is the alternative? I hear people say, "Let us have a general strike." You cannot have a general strike when war breaks out, because the nation is in danger. But here is a method. Go to the alleged patriots, the fellows with their money bags who have hitherto made profits out of war. We have not paid off all the Napoleonic War finances yet and they are still with us, and we shall not be able to pay off the people who lent us the £7,000,000,000 or £8,000,000,000 of credit for the last War. We never can pay them off. But let the word go round

  2417
  that when war comes we shall say, "You declare war is necessary and the only way out of the dispute is mass murder. You cannot negotiate or arbitrate or stop it. Very well, put down the money for the war week by week even as other men put down their lives and limbs." Let us get some sort of propaganda, like that going on internationally to attack the people who make the money, and go for the people who manufacture the munitions and lend the money. Let the British Government go forward boldly with some sort of proposals like that. It is fresh and it has not been tried before, but it is on a bigger scale. Let us put that to the people of the world and see if there is a big answer from the peoples of the world. If we get a big answer, we shall be in a fair way of saving this country from the financial ruin which threatens us, from the enormous debts which lay on our shoulders for past wars and the enormous taxation which would come from future wars. If we go forward with some such proposal, we shall, to use the right hon. Gentleman's phrase, begin to exorcise the demons who cause war in a way we have not been able to exorcise them in the past. It is profit and greed which is at the bottom of war, and until we face up to the n war will abide.
  Commander BELLAIRS: I am afraid that the disarmament crusade throughout Europe advocated by the hon. Gentleman opposite will take a long time, and we desire to achieve results much earlier in the day. In connection with that, a very interesting difference of opinion developed between the hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) and the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Rennie Smith). The hon. Member for Brightside wanted an international agreement on all the questions of Army, Navy, and Air armaments as a whole, whereas the hon. Member for Penistone was willing to get practical results from the Navy. In the very interesting and very full complete statement, considering the time at his disposal, which the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has made, he said he was willing to get anything from any international agreement, and that is the practical statesmanship of the situation. It has been suggested that we should have a fresh Washington Conference, and the
  2418
  Government would have agreed to it. Who was the obstacle I do not know, but, however that may be, that seems to me the practical way of approaching the problem. For us, it is mainly a naval question, and I agree with the hon. Member for Penistone that we ought to be ready with our proposals for bringing about disarmament. Already we have done a great deal. We were the authors of the proposition to scrap the finest submarine fleet in the world, and, if there was international agreement, to do away with the submarine altogether.
  I always deplore the fact that when speeches are made from the Opposition Benches it is implied that in some way His Majesty's Government are standing in the way of disarmament. The hon. Member for Brightside, when he dealt with the figures, gave only the figures for this country. For instance, he said that we were spending more money on war preparations than before the War. As I said just now, it is mainly a naval question with us, and the hon. Member for Brightside ought by now to be familiar with the statistics in regard to naval disarmament. The First Lord gave them the other day in the House. The hon. Member will acknowledge that the noneffective services, such as pensions and so on, cannot be touched. If you take out the non-effective services of the Navy and compare the Navy Estimates for 1914 with those of 1925, on the prices of 1914, the First Lord showed that there had been a reduction of 38·36 per cent. in naval expenditure. Surely, it is more patriotic and right that we should call the attention of the nations of the world to that fact rather than pretend it is we who are keeping up armaments in the face of Europe.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Brightside went on to the question of armament purchases, and, as was pointed out, some nations have to go to private firms for them. But there is another aspect of it. There is the fact that if we did not supply these armaments to nations which require them, another foreign nation would do so. It can only be dealt with by international agreement. Take the question of the guns at the Dardanelles, referred to as having come from British armament firms. It was a direct advantage to us, because, otherwise, they would have come from German firms, and the fact that they came from

  2419
  British firms made the Turks dependent on British munitions to fit those guns. We made a great mistake when the Turks wanted to buy old battleships from us. We refused. The Turks went to the Germans, and the consequence was that the Turks had to get their munitions from Germany, and they got them easier from the Germans than they would have got them from us when at war.
  Two or three Members on the other side have contended that we should not depend too much on the experts' advice. I agree up to a point, but you have got to have expert advice, and one of the great mistakes which the late Government made, when they were negotiating the Geneva Protocol, was that they failed to have with them a representative of the Naval War Staff. It was only when the Admiralty heard what was going on and they were largely committed that a representative of the Naval War Staff was rushed to Geneva, and they were able to get rid of some of the mischief, but not all. The record of the League is not a very successful one on the question of disarmament. As was pointed out by the hon. Gentleman who introduced this question, it was an express covenant of the League that disarmament should come about. It was also an express understanding that there should be disarmament as a result of the Versailles Treaty. Therefore, Geneva compares very unfavourably with Washington where only five Powers negotiated and actual disarmament did come about. I agree with the hon. Member that it is very desirable in this question of disarmament to secure widespread agreement.
  I think there has been no publicity as to the part of France in this question of disarmament. There has been no publicity of the fact that the Prime Minister of France's Government was Prime Minister when the Washington Treaty was negotiated and that he signed his name to the Root Resolutions to do away with the horrors of the submarine and air warfare against helpless commercial vessels. There has been no publicity of the fact that the militarists of France have successfully committed the French Government to adopting "sink at sight," which was really invented in France in the eighties and nineties of the last century. I am perfectly certain that if there were
  2420
  publicity public opinion in France—the more chivalrous—would function to bring about a change of sentiment in France on these matters. I rejoice that Mr. Houghton should have given that interview in Washington, stating what were the real causes at work to prevent disarmament. Hon. Members should notice that he gave great credit to England as acting as a good European in trying to bring about disarmament by every means in her power.
  Sir GERALD STRICKLAND: There has been a very dangerous overlapping in this Debate of talk about disarmament with the necessity of making a careful analysis of the possibility of limiting armaments. The limitation of armaments proportionately should be the aim of everyone who has at heart the social uplifting of their own and every other country; but to talk about disarmament is self-delusion about the unachievable. It is pernicious when it tends to induce the electors of this country to shut their eyes to an ever-present danger of being some day caught unprepared, and against this danger the British nations should be warned every day, and from day to day. While the limitation of armaments is possible, as at. Washington, and while I hope it will be achieved, disarmament should be shown up as impossible, for reasons which are patent to every student of history. Nothing has in the past or will in future prevent a nation which is rapidly over-growing in population, in wealth, in power, and in organisation, from wanting armaments and having armaments. We see, in the present condition of the world, two nations answering that description, Japan and Italy. Their population is constantly growing, their Imperial sentiment is constantly being fostered as a religion, and it is growing; and what will happen to us if we do not preserve the safeguards of our own Imperial sentiment? That which has happened to Germany without an army or an air force—the small consideration received recently at Geneva.
  Why was the opinion of some other Powers throughout the world unfavourable to permanently admitting Germany at once? It was because there was doubt whether Germany was as great a Power as other aspirants, because Germany to-day has not the armaments which are

  2421
  still a measure of greatness. Unless the people of England continue to be willing to keep up and, pay for them as an insurance for the safety of their trade and their food, and to preserve the means to create them rapidly when wanted, unless we persuade the people to be willing to spend for the purpose of armaments, we may any day be treated by other Powers in the same way in which Germany has been treated by a jealous combination at Geneva. believe it is the duty of every patriotic Englishman who understands the. Empire, who has travelled, who knows what the sentiment is in other countries, to go to the electors of England now and preach against any diminution of the. Army and Navy until other countries have diminished proportionately their preparations in regard to their armies, navies and an forces to a point where all neighbours are safe. I am well aware that in these days it is not thought popular to go before the electors and preach the maintenance of expenditure for the Army and Navy; but that is a mistake; educated electors understand these dangers. At the last election in the Lancaster Division, I spoke strongly and repeatedly about the necessity and the duty of every patriotic Englishman voting for a strong Army and Navy, and those speeches were always cheered. Even last week, at a general meeting of my constituents, I repeated the same warning as to the necessity for the safety of England as a thing beyond price a, and this was cheered to the echo.
  There is no section of this British community for which the upholding of armaments, and especially of the Navy, is more necessary than those represented by the Labour party, because everyone knows that we can only produce in this country enough food for three months of the year, and that for the other nine months we must obtain food by exchange from overseas, that is to say, by working. Exports must be carried by our fleets through the trade routes, flanked on every side with rivals, some of whom have already declared their determination to build up their Empire on the ruins of ours. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who is that?"] It is sufficiently well known to need no digression.
  There is one point that we should remember in discussions about the limitation of armaments, namely, that the promises made by statesmen depend upon
  2422
  the probability of ever-changing public opinion in their countries, honouring those promises in a crisis under conditions that are the secret of the future, and, although my hon. Friend on my right (Mr. Johnston) may have spoken with authority and knowledge as to the future public opinion and mentality of British working-men as regards their indefinite aversion to war, my hon. Friend is not in a position to inform, this House, nor can anybody attempt to prophesy who has not travelled in those countries what has happened as regards the public opinion of countries like Japan and Italy, with an overflowing population and with a public opinion which is likely to depend on individual dictation and to be lasting in those countries, where the same incentives will obtain long after we are dead and buried.
  Any pact made regarding the limitation of armaments will be liable to alteration with uncontrollable changes of opinion when causes of war arise. Probably, for the next 15 years, say, during the life of a generation that has seen the horrors of war and does not want them repeated, there is no real danger of any great war. [Interruption.] The time will come, however, when those who have seen war at its worst will be under the ground. It might be 20 years hence, but, when that time comes, we must realise that covenants and pacts may not be kept by nations of another mentality. Statesmen will do, in future, as in the past, that which the public opinion of the nation calls for at the moment, and, when that time comes, it will be possible to manufacture aircraft and poison gas and submarines in a few weeks, if not in a few days. It is no longer a question of ruling the world with battleships, which require years to build. It will be possible to collect armies and armaments and organise them in secret better than is being done to-day, notwithstanding pacts; submarines will be held in preparation, and no pact will stop their being built by a great Power. There is only one reliable defence that any country can have, namely, that which is taught us by Holy Writ:
  "When a strong man armed keepeth palace, his goods are in peace."
  The strength by which this Empire has been raised, and by which it can alone

  2423
  be kept safe, is by persuading the electors of this country of the necessity of continuing to provide money for armaments in proportion to our trade, in proportion to our population, in proportin to the great interests in the scattered British Empire which we have to insure against the vicissitudes of human needs and passions. Human nature will never change, and nothing will ever stop the human race, when population overflows, from fighting for living space upon the face of the earth rather than lowering its standard of living. Some country, perhaps France, may not continue to overflow with population, but other nations will, and, therefore, there will be war in the future, as in the past. Nations will combine for at-tack and defence, and we shall he in a dangerous position and we shall be treated as inferiors by other nations in this grouping if we do not continue to bring up our children in the old principles of Empire, and safety, making for peace by being always prepared for emergencies.
  Mr. DALTON: I shall be very brief, and the requirements of brevity will prevent me from following the hon. Gentlemen who has just spoken, because I think he lives in a world quite apart from that of the rest of this House, and of others who have addressed the House on this subject, even from the other side. I think it will be admitted that this Debate has been useful, and I should like at once to say that the statement we had from the Under-Secretary seemed to me to be, to put it no higher, moderately satisfactory. I am hopeful that the present opportunity and the possibilities of achieving something big in the way of disarmament are present to the mind of the Foreign Secretary, though we can quite understand that he is prevented by other duties from being here this afternoon. All that I wish, in summary, to do, is to comment briefly upon some of the things the Under-Secretary told us, and, perhaps, to raise one or two further questions on what he said.
  On the question of Russia, I wonder whether it would not be possible—I am not. asking for a direct answer, but only making a suggestion—for the good offices of this country to he used, now before it is too late, to try to get over what, if
  2424
  my private information is correct, are very trivial differences between the Russians and the Swiss, differences that can be narrowed down to quite small points—according to one account, to whether a certain adverb shall or shall not be inserted in a letter of regret. They are differences of a babyish character which are discreditable to great nations in the face of intricate problems, and, in view of the immense advantages that would accrue from the presence of Russia, and the disadvantages of her absence, particularly in regard to the Baltic States and Poland and Roumania, could we not make some efforts to induce Russia or Switzerland, or both, to try to get over this really rather ridiculous and discreditable obstacle which still remains in the way of Russian participation?
  I am not myself a, believer in the possibility of unilateral disarmament by this country, but that makes me ail the keener in hoping that we shall be prepared, when the time comes, to put forward a really bold conditional offer of disarmament, conditional upon what other important countries may do. A conditional offer would cost us nothing, and, on the other hand, it may set the pace for other peoples to mobilise their public opinion in its favour, and, generally speaking, to loosen the earth around this problem. Suggestions have been made on these benches as to what points might be embodied in a conditional offer, and the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) was quite willing, for his part, that that should be done and be pressed. That being so, I hope we may imitate, mutatis mutandis, the attitude of Mr. Secretary Hughes at Washington, when he made a bold practical suggestion at the very first sitting of the Conference, and brought it to great success within prescribed limits.
  I understand from the Under-Secretary that Lord Cecil's instructions are not yet framed, and I will only commit myself to saying that I think they have been a little slow in getting framed, having regard to the fact that this matter has been before us, in one form or another, for so long. I only hope that it may yet be possible for us to hear what is the general tenor of Lord Cecil's instructions before the date arrives for his departure for Geneva, so that we may, perhaps, have

  2425
  an opportunity of further discussion here. I need not add, in repetition of what I have said before, that I hope his instructions will encourage him to be conditionally audacious. I am not quite clear a.-gout the question of traffic in arms. I understand—the hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong—that both the traffic in arms and the manufacture of arms will come, in one shape or another, before the Disarmament Preparatory Commission.
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: In regard to the manufacture of arms, it rather depends upon when the replies from the countries of the League are received.
  Mr. DALTON: We have sent in our reply already, I understand.
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I am not absolutely certain whether it has actually been sent.
  Mr. DALTON: But will it be sent in time, so that we shall not be told that this Commission cannot do anything at al., because, among other countries, this country has not sent its reply? We can guarantee that, I hope.
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I cannot definitely say exactly when it will be sent, but I presume it will be sent in time.
  Mr. DALTON: I am sure we all hope that that will be so. That is in regard to manufacture. With regard to traffic, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, there is a partial Convention which has been signed. Can the hon. Gentleman say whether that has also been ratified by this country?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I am afraid I cannot say.
  Mr. DALTON: That is obviously an important matter, because, as we know in the sphere of the International Labour Conventions, many things are signed but few are ratified or operated. There is just one further point, which I take from the hon. Gentleman's statement. He was telling us that at the meeting of this Preliminary Commission there will be—
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I am informed that the Traffic in Arms Convention has not been ratified yet, as we are waiting in order, if possible, to get simul-
  2426
  taneous ratification by all the countries. With regard to the manufacture of armaments, there is no doubt that our reply will be received in time.
  Mr. DALTON: I am very much obliged. I hope again we shall make a conditional offer that we will ratify if they will do the same. That seems to be the minimum of audacity, which costs nothing. It looks more audacious than it really is. Finally, at the preliminary exchange of views that is to take 'place at the Conference there seemed a slight danger, when the hon. Gentleman read out the questionnaire, that it might be simply logic chopping and definition splitting. I am glad to gather from him that in addition to what I might call those academic examination questions, what are armaments, what is a gun and so on, we really have concrete questions on the paper which may lead to positive action without undue academics. I was glad to hear that, and I should like to press him to convey the suggestions made to him by myself and the whole of the hon. Gentlemen behind me that we should not try to split our responsibility towards initiative and say, "We did very well at Washington. That proves that we are sound on the Navy and we need not do anything more. With regards to the Army we need not do much. We are not a great military Power. We will leave that to the French. The French have three to one in the Air Force, and they ought to take the initiative there." I hope we are not going to say that.
  What I would suggest is that we should be able to make a, conditional offer in which what we are offering to do with regard to the Navy shall be in part conditional on what other people will do in regard to their Air Force and Army. The whole disarmament problem—Army, Navy and Air Force—has to be discussed together at this Conference, and it scorns to me there is no reason why we should he backward in coming forward with our initiative, and why our initiative should not cover the whole ground, even though in some eases other nations are more directly concerned than we are. As one who spent a little while at Geneva as an observer last slimmer, and talked with people of all nationalities and political complexions, the general impression I gathered, which

  2427
  is borne out by the impression of others who had the same experience, is that if only this country would stand up and give a lead, there would be a tremendous following from all sorts of perhaps unexpected quarters. People still believe abroad that the British Empire stands for something and is the most powerful organised force in the world for good, for evil or for inertia as the case may be. And if only we came in with both feet we can swing into line behind us a whole mass of small States whose total influence is very considerable, though individually they are small, and I believe we could simply over-ride—I do not mean violently, but in our influence on opinion over-ride practically any obstacle, provided we play our part boldly and skilfully in regard to this disarmament problem. I hope Lord Cecil will be encouraged in every way possible to go, representing what I believe is not only British, but world opinion—a very passionate desire for a big forward movement to be made. We have allowed many years to go over our heads since the War without taking much advantage of them, and I hope that at last there will be a little more vigour, a little more imagination and a little more positive putting up of propositions, which I believe will be accepted if they are put up with sufficient vigour and persuasiveness.

  TWO-SEATER TAXI-CABS.
  Mr. B. SMITH: I hope I shall not be charged with presumption in raising a matter which is of minor importance compared with the previous discussion. The difference is that one is large national policy, whereas the point I wish to raise is more of a domestic nature. May I give a short history of the cab trade in London, dating back to 1907, when cabs were first licensed at 8d. per mile, 2d. per quarter of a mile thereafter, 4s. an hour, and 2d. per package? Several companies came into existence, the total number of cabs they had between them approximating to 5,000. By 1913, at that fare, not a single one of those companies was in existence, neither are any of them now in existence, and they had in the industry at that time approximately £3,000,000 of capital. The reason the companies went out of existence was that at that time, in competition with the horse cab against a is first hiring, the 8d. fare was brought
  2428
  in to popularise the mechanical vehicle as against the horse vehicle. That fare remained, and the cabs were sold chiefly to individual owners, until 1917 when prices were higher, petrol was limited in quantity to the men, and they were given an initial first hiring of 1s. 2d. In 1919 that order was again amended, and the initial hiring was fixed at 1s., with 3d. a quarter of a mile thereafter, 6s. an hour waiting, and 3d. per package carried. That fare has stood until now.
  2.0 P.M.
  In October, 1924, the right hon. Gentleman called a conference of the trade, which I introduced to him, with regard to the advent of the two-seater cab. It was pointed out to him that a two-seater cab in London at a differing fare would be bad for the public, bad for the proprietors, and worse for the men. He agreed to postpone any action for a period of about 12 months, when he again raised the matter, and instituted a Committee known as the Two-seater Cab Committee, on which seven Members of the House had seats. They went into the question of the advisability of the two-seater cab. The reference was to consider
  "whether it is desirable in the public interest to ply for hire as cabs as defined by the London Cab and Stage Carriage Act, 1907, any type of four-wheeled motor vehicle constructed or intended to carry less than four passengers, and, if so to make recommendation on the rates of fare which should he fixed and/or any other matters arising out of the licencing of such vehicles."
  The Committee took evidence, and I believe there was practical unanimity on the part of the witnesses that the introduction of a two-seater cab in London would be inimical to the best interests of the cab trade, would conduce to further congestion from the traffic point of view, and would have the effect of disturbing the public by promiscuous hiring first of one vehicle and then of another at a differing fare. The Committee reported in the following terms:
  "(1) It is not desirable that the Secretary of State should make an order which would prohibit the licensing of a vehicle which complies with Scotland Yard requirements, on the sole ground that it is constructed to carry less than four passengers."
  The first mechanical cab in London was in fact a two-seater cab. After about a year of operation the whole of the companies were pressed by the Commissioner of Police to convert those two-seater cabs into four-seaters. Those cabs, which cost

  2429
  £350 in 1910, and £500 in 1914, cost in 1920 £1,000 and in some cases more. To-day the same cab is £700 to £750. The owner drivers and small proprietors, of whom there are many, put the whole of their capital into the cab business in the belief that there would be no change in the method of construction or seating or ea prying capacity of the vehicle, and there is now approximately £4,500,000 of capital sunk by these men. The licensing of the two-seater cab will have the effect of ruining practically every driver now in London. There are 10,000 men now in London, and if the right hon. Gentleman lie roses them at a fare that is 9d. a mile and 3d. a third thereafter, and 4s. an hour waiting, it will have the effect in the long run—and no one knows it better than he himself—of bringing fares down for the whole of London. That will mean a 27 per cent. reduction in the revenue of the proprietors and a like reduction in the wages of the men. They are paid on a commission basis, and when any change is made in the fare it takes 27 per cent. of the gross income in wages from 10,000 men. I think that should give one pause before licensing a vehicle that is likely to have a serious effect upon the income of 10,000 genuine people and will ruin in the long run most of the owner drivers, will add to congestion in traffic, and last but not least, will create two fares, which the Committee are dead against, for a period and will operate to the disadvantage of the public as a whole. In Clause 2 of their recommendations, the Committee say:
  "The public convenience is hest served by one standard rates of fares."
  That is what we are asking.
  "(3) It is therefore suggested that the Secretary of State should call a conference of the cab trade with a view to secure an agreed reduction in existing fares which would be applicable to all types of taxis."
  I introduced a deputation of both the proprietors' and the journeymen's interests, and they told the right hon. Gentleman that, having regard to the present cost of running a vehicle, they thought it was impossible to reduce the fares. The conference was adjourned for a month, and a further one held, and again the interests reflected the view that it would be impossible to reduce the fares. This arose out of a letter received from the Home Secretary asking the men to consider three points. The first was whether
  2430
  they could agree to a reduction of 9d. per mile and 3d. a third thereafter, and 4s. an hour waiting; (2) whether they could agree or would discuss 6d. a half mile and 3d. a quarter mile thereafter, and 4s. an hour waiting as against 6s., or (3) first hiring and 2d. a quarter mile thereafter, and the same amount, 4s., for waiting. After a very long discussion the representatives were committed by their association, and I was instructed to make a tentative offer to the Home Secretary on No. 2 of his letter, which was 6d. a half mile—and to use the figures which have been presented to us, 60 per cent. of the rides are a mile or less—and 4s. an hour waiting. I regret to say that although that offer was made, subject to endorsement. by the representative associations, the Home Secretary could not see his way clear to accept it. He then issued a statement, after correspondence with myself—a very courteous correspondence, I am glad to say—to the effect that in a fortnight from that date he intended to license two-seater cars. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] One hon. Member says" Hear, hear." If anyone can say that Is. for the first hiring for the use of a man's servie and a £1,000 vehicle, to travel one mile, is excessive, I cannot agree with him. That is exactly what happens. The Committee go further and say that:
  "In the absence of any agreement for a uniform fare for two passengers, we recommend," etc.
  They then make certain recommendations as to the fares for the use of two-seater cabs to be licensed, and proceed to say:
  "We recognise that a result of licensing two-seater cabs may be an undue decrease in the number of four-seater vehicles capable of dealing with the station work of the Metropolis, or, alternatively, a total number of taxi-cabs in excess of public demands, adding to the congestion of the traffic.
  We are strongly of opinion that any further addition to the congestion of traffic is contrary to the interests of the public and of the cab trade. The situation would, therefore, have to be carefully watched and considered in conjunction' with the steps taken by the Ministry of Transport to diminish congestion, and it may be necessary for the Secretary of State to obtain powers to limit the numbers of either or both types licensed to ply for hire."
  I have the honour of being a member of the Traffic Advisory Committee. The

  2431
  Two-Seater Cab Committee, when in session, wrote to the Traffic Advisory Committee asking their views with regard to two-seater cabs, and the Traffic Advisory Committee unanimously sent a letter to the effect that the introduction of such cabs would seriously increase the existing congestion in London. Therefore they were against the introduction of two-seater cabs. After the report of the Two-Seater Cab Committee, having regard to the Clause which I have just read, the Advisory Committee again went into the matter, and advised the Minister of Transport, who I understand in terms advised the Home Secretary, that the introduction of a two-seater cab would be a serious factor in congesting the traffic. I do not want to say anything unnecessarily contentious. I want to placate the Home Secretary, if I can, and I am hoping that he is in a better frame of mind to-day than he has been all along.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): Oh!
  Mr. SMITH: I say that advisedly. I want to ask the Home Secretary whether he will consider either meeting a deputation again or, alternatively, having regard to the fact that the men have not had an opportunity of submitting what I will call the finance of their business, he will agree to set up a Committee to arbitrate on the question. I think the Government should set an example on the question of arbitration. It is not our fault that London business is in the hands of the Secretary of State for the Home Department. If these matters were, in the hands of the London County Council for licensing purposes, or in the hands of any of the larger London bodies, one could understand it. If is not our fault that the Home Secretary has to be brought in in connection with what he may regard as a minor question. Although it may be a. minor question to him, having regard to his onerous duties, it is a, very serious matter for the men who are to he called upon to face a 27 per cent. reduction in wages.
  I would ask the Home Secretary (1) whether he would again meet a deputation with a view to arriving at an agreed settlement as recommended by the Two-
  2432
  Seater Cab Committee, or, failing that, (2) whether he would agree to submitting the whole case to arbitration. I suggest that there should be one representative from labour, one from capital, with a neutral Chairman, and that before them the matter should be argued, and we would stand or fall by the decision of that Committee. I suggest to the Home Secretary that that is a way out and that it would save what undoubtedly will happen in London if the two-seater cab comes, namely, that there will be chaos in the trade and that it will be bad for the public and bad, in the long run, for the Home Secretary.
  Colonel VAUGHAN-MORGAN: The hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. B. Smith) has given a very clear and comprehensive view of the situation. As a London Member I am interested in this question from the point of view of the Metropolis, although I am not in any sense connected with the trade in one capacity or another. I am also interested in the question because I have many friends of years' standing among the men who drive taxi-cabs in London. Not only Members of Parliament for London, but any citizen of our great city should take a keen interest in this subject, because the taxi-cab is a very important means of communication, and we should be seriously inconvenienced were the numbers to be reduced. We depend upon the taxicab for part of our means of communication. This is essentially a domestic question. It is not one that lends itself to division on party lines or to any cleavage of that kind. It is a matter essentially for London to consider and, in the last resort, it is a matter essentially for London to determine. The owners and drivers of taxi-cabs are London citizens, but not all the patrons are Londoners.
  I disagree with what. I understand to be the policy of the Home Secretary on this question. A case has been made out by the hon. Member for Rotherhithe against the demand that the cab trade shall, at this juncture, accept a greater reduction in fares than those already offered. I think it can be clearly demonstrated that if the figure of 8d. a mile was reasonable pre-War, 9d. a mile is not reasonable to-day. Everybody will recognise that the costs of running and obtaining a vehicle have enormously increased. Some of my

  2433
  friends in the trade estimate the increase at 70 per cent., while others put it at a higher figure. Certainly the relation between 9d. and 8d. cannot represent an effective comparison. If therefore a reduction in fares cannot be justified on the ground of reduction in working costs, what argument can be put forward in support of it? There are, I think, two arguments which have been put forward. It is said that, in spite of the difficulties, the public as a whole demand the concession. If that view be held, all I can sail from my experience is that I demur from it. I am not aware of any extensive informed opinion which demands a concession of that kind. On the other hand, there is a certain amount of dissatisfaction on the part of the public because they are afraid that the payment of the strictly legal fare will not be invariably welcomed with that kind of courtesy which one expects from servants of the public. My experience in that direction not been unfavourable. I find that the taxi-driver is courteous and reasonable.
  A further argument used in favour of the reduction is that if the fare be reduced the business of the trade will largely extend. That view, as far as my information goes, is held by a section of the trade, but one large cab proprietor with whom I am acquainted who is understood to have held that view at one time does not hold it at the present time. I think the best policy for the cab trade would be to persist in the offer they have mace, so as to limit the first short hiring to not less than 1s. and to adhere to the 'seductions for waiting time and in regard to extra passengers which they have offered. If that condition was accepted it could hardly be contended that for the use of a vehicle of the character, type, and quality which is insisted upon in the case of London taxicabs. it is excessive to charge for conveying two persons half-a-mile or three-quarters of a mile a sum varying from 3d. to 4d. per head. I do not think it could be contended that that is an exorbitant demand. 'When we come to consider the reluctance of the trade to accept a reduction or to admit the possibility of a reduction, it is only fair to look at their side of the question. The figures which appear in the report of the Two-seater Cab Committee show the cost of a vehicle. I have heard varying figures
  2434
  mentioned. The hon. Member for Rotherhithe mentioned £1,000. I have heard £000 mentioned and £800. The figure most commonly given is £750.
  Mr. SMITH: That is so.
  Colonel VAUGHAN-MORGAN: Mere is a cash payment down of £100, or in some cases £75, and a weekly payment varying from £3 3s. to £5. In addition, the taxi-driver has to insure against third party risks. He has to pay rental for his clock, and he has to pay his licence and the police fee.
  Mr. SMITH: That is so.
  Colonel VAUGHAN-MORGAN: And his road tax. At a rough estimate, it seems to cost him, before any profit is earned., in the neighbourhood of £4 4s. a week the year round. I do not know whether the impression prevails among any large section of the public that every taxi driver or taxi proprietor is rapidly making a fortune. My information does not support that view. I therefore find myself in disagreement with the policy which I understand the Home Secretary has hitherto resolved upon, and I support the plea that is being made that he should reconsider the attitude which he 'holds at the present time. The question of congestion in the London streets is serious. There is difficulty to-day in finding adequate rank accommodation for taxicabs. There is a tendency on the part of the Advisory Committee in the direction of reducing the numbers rather than increasing them, which is going to make the situation of the proprietors not more easy. The proprietors' earning power will be further restricted. I ask the Home Secretary to consider that aspect of the question again.
  Now I come to the third point. Is it necessary, is it reasonable that the taxicab to-day should cost the figure which is asked for it? I believe that that figure is due, at least in part, to the Regulations of Scotland Yard. I have heard of those Regulations and I am familiar with some of the details, though I have not in my possession the substantial volume which contains the whole of them. I ask the Home Secretary to consider a review of the Regulations and restrictions which at present obtain. In view of the development of the motor trade and the improvement in motor vehicles, is it any longer

  2435
  necessary to insist upon the turning circle, the lock, which has now to be specially provided? Is it any longer necessary to insist upon a certain clearance under the cab? Is it any longer necessary to insist upon certain detailed specifications as to length of body, length of seat and distance between, and so on? In fact are a great many of the pernickety Regulations really necessary? Will the Home Secretary consider a review of these Regulations, and possibly the appointment of some qualified Committee to go into the matter and to ascertain, first of all, in how far they are really responsible for the high cost of the vehicles and the restricted sources of supply of the vehicles?
  In the course of his reply perhaps he will also be good enough to inform the House how the fares in London compare with the fares authorised in other important towns in the country. So far as my information goes, the fares in London are infinitely less than those which obtain in any other town in Great Britain. They are certainly less than the fares in certain places abroad. You can travel in a taxi more economically in London than in New York. That does not surprise anyone. But if you compare the relative purchasing powers of money in the two places, according to what is a rough and ready estimate, the London taxi-cab cods to day no more than the taxi-cab in New York, making allowance for the reduction and taking the dollar at 2s. Those being a few arguments in support of the appeal which has been made by the hon. Member opposite, I conclude by asking the Home Secretary to give attention to these considerations. Will he be good enough to give his attention to the appeal, and will he also take into consideration the question of the Regulations and restrictions which are partly 'responsible for the trouble? I have had considerable correspondence on behalf of a constituent of mine with the Home Office on points arising out, of these restrictions. Are they really all necessary? By a relaxation of them could not the difficult task of the cab driver and proprietor be made substantially easier, and the way be made more readily accessible for a reduction in the cost to the public?
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: I am speaking on behalf of the travelling public. I am not
  2436
  speaking on behalf of proprietors of fleets of taxi-cabs or on behalf of owner-drivers. Nor am I speaking on behalf of unions or the Traffic Committee. I speak for the ordinary person who regards a taxicab as a thing to be taken now and again when he has missed his last tube train. He takes a cab, therefore, as a certain form of extravagance. I think that the fares are too dear, and that the taxis stand idle for great parts of the day because the fares are too dear. I am perfectly satisfied as to that. If there were a reduction of fares on the lines suggested, I am satisfied that every driver would have two customers where he now gets only one. Out coinage is very awkward for dealing with fares of this kind. I wish we had something a little more elastic. You put your hand in your pocket for a 1s. or 1s. 3d. fare and you find you have only a two-shilling piece. You are not going to ask for change. The taxi-man, after all, does not really make his earnings out of the rigid, legal fare. The last speaker said something about a taxi-man being courteous when given a strictly legal fare. I gathered that my hon. Friend had had the audacity to pay only the legal fare. It is a thing of which I never would have dreamt. I could not do it. I would rather walk all the way. [HON. MEMBERS: "To Scotland?"] Yes, walk to Scotland.
  It is utterly uneconomic, when you are travelling alone, to get into a cab designed to carry four people. What is wanted is a two-seated vehicle to take one person or two. The Traffic Committee is cutting down the number of omnibuses and teeny people will not go underground, notwithstanding all the appeals that the combine issues to make human rabbits of us. Those people want something in which to travel about. There might be some relaxation in Scotland Yard's regulations. If the result of those regulations is that a man has to pay £725 for a cab, Instead of £325 or £400 at the outset, there is someone who is having a great pull. It is ridiculous that that heavy burden should be hung round the neck of the taximan at the start. I have no use for proprietors of fleets of taxicabs. I am a believer in the man who owns his own taxi and drives it. Hon. Members opposite may not agree. Such proprietors are not often members of trade unions; they like to be independent. The two-seater cab is bound

  2437
  to be cheaper and the vehicle will be more within the reach of the democracy and of people of small means. If I believed that the reduction of fares would reduce the taximan's wages to the extent that has been stated I would not support it. But I do not believe it for a moment. The drivers are crying out before they are hurt. I believe that the taximan today is getting a good average standard wage.
  This scheme of the Home Secretary will not be an iron-bound scheme. It will not be like the laws of the Medes. It ought to be tried. The Home Secretary has to consider first the interests of the travelling public. Taxi-cabs are not on the streets for the benefit of their owners but for the benefit of the public. All industries and occupations and professions should be carried on for the benefit of the customers. The Home Secretary is fortunate that he is in a neutral position, unconnected with the Traffic Committee, the trade unions or anything else. He can, therefore, consider the question with the utmost impartiality. I hope that he will stick to his guns. The public are absolutely behind him in his endeavour to get these smaller vehicles and lower fares. The smaller cabs could go round the smaller streets and avoid the congestion. They would, in fact, minimise the congestion. I doubt whether the gloomy prognostications which have been indulged in will be realised. Experience shows that when the cost is diminished to the customer and the consumer, there is an amazing result in turnover, with increasing profits to those who have a commodity for sale. Some hon. Members opposite have the narrow-minded, trade union point of view that the higher the price the more money is made. I recall the last Coalition Government, when the Post master-General raised the price of post cards to 1½d. I asked him, "Why not raise the price to 1s. 6d. and pay the National Debt?" He strangled the industry. The present charge for taxicabs is absolutely injurious to the taxi-men, and in the best interest of all concerned they should accept the Home Secretary's suggestion.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am much obliged to the hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. B. Smith) for the very cour-
  2438
  teous way in which he introduced this very important question, which has excited so much interest in the House this afternoon. I would like to assure such of the House as is here that this matter is no sudden decision on the part of the dogmatic Home Secretary. The hon. Member for Rotherhithe was quite fair in telling the history of the case. It was as long ago as November, 1924, when I first came into office, that I was faced with an application which had been made by one or two firms to put two-seaters on the streets. I knew all the difficulties that would arise. They have been mentioned to-day. Therefore I called a conference of the cab trade. The proprietors came to see me and discussed the matter. They explained all their difficulties to me. I said: "Let the thing stand over for 12 months. I will not license any two-seaters for 12 months, and by then you will have had time to consider what the effect will be and you can come and see me again to talk it over." At the end of 12 months there was no greater accord between the trade and myself, and I was being pressed as to why I would not give licences to two-seaters. I appointed a Departmental Committee, consisting of five Members of this House, one of the Police Commissioners, and one representative of the Ministry of Transport. That Committee met a great many times and took a great deal of evidence, and it arrived at certain conclusions.
  I want the House to realise my position. I appointed a committee which was in effect a committee of this House, though it had on it one representative of the police and one representative of the Ministry of Transport, to assist in technical matters. That committee came to certain conclusions which have been quite fairly stated by the hon. Gentleman opposite. They advised me that there would be difficulties in this matter. I must confess their report was not a very dogmatic one, and did not give that amount of guidance and help for which a Minister hopes when he shifts the burden of decision and of blame on to a Parliamentary Committee. However, they gave me some help. They came to the conclusion that it would not be right to refuse to license two-seater taxi-cabs, simply because they were two-seater taxicabs. That was the first clause of their report. Then they told me there would

  2439
  be a good deal of objection to it, and they advised me that, in the first instance, I should try to negotiate with the cab trade to arrive at a reduction of fares which would enable me not to license the two-seater cabs. I held the series of negotiations which the hon. Member opposite has fairly and frankly described. I listened to all that there was to be said by proprietors, drivers and others, and the result of the conference was that there was no agreement at all for any reduction of fares. They said, "We cannot and we shall not reduce. It cannot be done, and therefore it is no good talking to us any longer about it." That was their attitude. Then I said, "I am sometimes obstinate as well as you. Take another month to think this matter over, and see if you cannot come to some arrangement in the interests of the public. I have no interest either for or against the taxicab trade, but take another month and come and see me again at the end of that period." At the end of the month they came again, and they said, "We cannot and will not reduce the fares."
  The hon. Member opposite came to me after that demonstration, and discussed with me the possibility of a reduction of fares on a smaller scale than that which I had suggested. A right hon. Gentleman who sits opposite also suggested a minor alteration in the scale of fares. In the first place, I should say that suggestions were sent out some months ago from my office as a basis for discussion. When the discussion took place, the cab trade would not consider these suggestions at all. They said, "We will not have anything to do with any of them." Therefore, I withdrew all those alternatives, and said the matter was now being started afresh. The suggestion made by the hon. Member was a fare of 6d. for the first half-mile, 9d. for three-quarters of a mile, and 1s. for a mile. That would have very little effect on the travelling public except in the case of the very rare passenger who rode just less than three-quarters of a mile, and who would get off with a ninepenny fare instead of a, shilling. The suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman who is one of the leaders of the Opposition was that we should continue the fare of Is. for the first mile, and charge 2d. for each one-fifth of a mile afterwards.
  2440
  Thus the man who now rides two miles and has to pay 2s. would get off for 1s. 10d., while the man who now rides three miles and pays three shillings would get off for 2s. 8d. That did not seem to me to be worth all the bother, and I said if I could not., on behalf of the travelling public, get any more substantial reduction, it seemed to me the fares had better remain as at present. Finally I wrote to the hon. Member opposite, and told him quite frankly that I had heard all the cab trade had to say, in support of the view that they could not possibly live at lower fares than the present fares. "Very well then," I said, "let us assume that to be the case. What am I to do?" As the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) has just said I have something else to represent, besides the taxicab trade. I have to think of the public. I am given the responsibility by Parliament of looking after this question of taxicab fares and conditions and so forth.
  Mr. SMITH: Subject to a limit.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am responsible to Parliament, I quite agree, for the way in which I carry out my office. I would much prefer if I had not these difficult questions to decide, but I would point out to the hon. Member that I am in the position of an arbitrator. He suggested that we should have an arbitration by a representative of the taxicab trade on one side, a representative of the travelling public on the other, and a third member of independent character. Obviously, as everyone knows, number one and number two would cancel out each other, and the third person, appointed as the independent chairman, would have to decide. I have tried during the last 15 months to take the part of the independent chairman. I have heard a great deal more on the side of the taxicab proprietors than on the side of the general public, but, at all events, I have tried to find out what was my duty in the matter, and I must confess I have not been able to feel that I should be justified in declining to allow this new type of taxicab to be brought into operation in London. Really, the view taken by the hon. Member for Rotherhithe is the very acme of Toryism. In effect, he says, "Because the four-seater cabs are already here, because the

  2441
  present men cannot get a living if new cabs are introduced, no improvement must be permitted to the travelling public of London." On the other hand, I am met by people who say, "We are prepared to supply a public want. We are prepared to put two-seater cabs on the streets at certain fares." Am I to say to those people, "I will not permit it, and London is not to have the privilege of cheaper taxicabs because it will be injurious to the existing cab trade." That is a very strong statement.
  Mr. SMITH: It is safeguarding an industry.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: No, it is a very different proposition, because in the case of other industries we have foreign competition in Germany and elsewhere, working on very different lines to our home industries. The hon. Member went back to 1907, and to the advent of taxicabs and motor omnibuses. Now it is quite true that motor omnibuses carry people about satisfactorily, quickly and cheaply, and that taxicabs can get round London much more quickly than the old "growlers" did. But think of the vested interests of the old cab drivers and the old omnibus drivers, who were displaced by those vehicles. Was it to be said then that we should not have these new vehicles on the streets, because it would do away with the old cab driver, and the old horse omnibus driver with his many coals, who had driven omnibuses through the City for 40 years previously? We must think of these poor old gentlemen, but progress, I am afraid, cannot be stopped, and the hon. Member knows that the pressure of progress and the pressure of new inventions, introduced the motor omnibus and the taxicab very greatly to the detriment of many of the old drivers. Even to-day one has applications in regard to concerts and entertainments for the benefit of the old omnibus drivers to help them over bad times. They, have been ruined by modern vehicles. I know it is a very sad thing and I am very sorry for it, but you cannot keep back the clock—not even on the Conservative side—and the hon. Member opposite ought not to desire to keep back the clock in this way.
  There are just two other points which I would mention. An argument has been used as to the congestion of the London
  2442
  streets, and the suggestion is made that if 500 new two-seater taxicabs come on the streets in the course of six months it will seriously add to the congestion. These cabs are not made yet—but I believe there are one or two specimens to be submitted to Scotland Yard—but the whole 500 would come on in the course of six months. In the last three weeks of this month, 8,000 new motor vehicles have been licensed in London. They are being licensed to-day at the rate of 2,300, or 2,500 per week, so that in the six months within which it is possible that the 500 new two-seater cabs may come on the streets, there will be 26 times 2,500 new motor vehicles. The additional congestion of 500 taxicabs is a drop in the bucket, compared with the enormous number of additional vehicles with which the Minister of Transport will have to deal somehow or other. Whether my right hon. Friend is going to widen streets, or what he is going to do, it is not for me to discuss, and I should probably get into trouble if I did so, but I assure the House that the congestion argument is not one which should be considered even by the Traffic Advisory Committee. Then I am told that I should be involved in ruining old men as well as young men who have bought their taxicabs on the hire-purchase system. I think I have already answered that point. I cannot stop modern progress, and I have no right to stop it.
  All I can say is that I am not altering the fares for existing cabs. I am not saying, as I have the power to say to the taxicab trade, "I am going to issue an Order altering your fares." I am leaving the fares just as they are, but I am saying, that as somebody else has applied for permission to put a new type of vehicle on the street at a lower fare, in the interests of the travelling public I conceive it my duty to allow this to be done. It may be that the effect of that will be, as the hon. Member suggested, to reduce the fares of the existing four-seater cabs, Personally, I agree with the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire. We have found all along the line that the cheapening of transport does not ruin the transport industry but improves it. If I may introduce a personal note, many years ago I had a great deal to do with the traffic of London from a commercial point of view. I was interested as a lawyer

  2443
  and very largely helped in the management of the great omnibus company, and I remember the transformation from the horse omnibuses to the motor omnibuses. I had a great deal to do with that, and it was found in those days that the cheapening of fares, which many older people looked on as ruin to the omnibus trade, resulted in the prosperity of the omnibus trade. I believe the same principle applies in this case. If the cab trade were to reduce the fares to the extent I have suggested, I believe there would be a great increase in the numbers using the cabs. There are hundreds of thousands of more men and women pouring into London who are available as fares, and all you have, to do is to convince them that the present high rate of fares is going to be reduced and you will find a great accession to the number of the taxicab-using public.
  I am bound to say that I cannot see my way to alter my decision. The hon. Member for Rotherhithe has told the House exactly how I have been placed, and what efforts I have been making during the last 15 months to secure an agreement. I have failed to do so, and I have come to the conclusion that my duty as Home Secretary and the interests of the travelling public, demand that in answer to those who are prepared to put two-seater cabs on the street, at lower fares, I must at least allow the experiment to be made in order to see whether it will be for the benefit of the people of whose interests in this matter I am the ultimate guardian. I am very sorry to have to refuse the offer made by the hon. Member. He has been so kind and courteous and so helpful, if I may say so, throughout the whole of these negotiations and the dispute, which is not really a dispute, because the taxi trade has been very courteous to myself personally, and I only deeply regret that I am unable to accede to their request.
  Mr. SMITH: Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to limit the advent of the two-seater cabs? He used the term "experiment."
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I did not say that I proposed to limit them, because I have no power to do it. I should need an Act of Parliament to enable me to
  2444
  limit them, but the applications that I have heard of coming in are at the most only 500. I have prepared the Order giving the permission for them in draft, and I was proposing to issue it on Tuesday next, the clay after Bank Holiday, but the conditions in regard to the new taxis are being considered and drafted by the Commissioner of Police. They will necessarily take some little time, and it will take some considerable time, of course, for the taxis to be built.
  Mr. SMITH: Will the right hon. Gentleman postpone the operation of that Order for a fortnight?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The hon. Gentleman is pressing me, as, of course, he is entitled to do, on behalf of those for whom he speaks, but the thing has gone on for so long already. If he likes to come to see me in my office on Tuesday morning—I come back again on Monday from what short holiday I am going to get, and my intention now is to issue the Order on Tuesday afternoon—and if he can come and tell me that he has been able to get agreement, I shall be glad, as I always have been, to see him.
  Colonel VAUGHAN-MORGAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman give any consideration to the points I have mentioned in regard to the Regulations?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: My hon. and gallant Friend has made a new point on the question of the Regulations—I have not had it put before me at all, and certainly not by the taxi-cab drivers themselves—as regards the lock of the cab. One of the secrets of the success of the London taxi-cab is that it has a short lock, which will enable it to turn round in the width of the street. If I had a large cab licensed with a lock which could not turn round in an ordinary street in London, I would ask the House to consider what the traffic congestion would amount to then. The Commissioner of Police is always open to consider improvements. I was asked the other day whether I would permit four-wheel brakes on taxi-cabs, and I have seen the Commissioner, and I think arrangements will be made to permit of four-wheel brakes, or any other improvement, but the question of the lock is one on which I could not give way.
  Mr. MACQUSTEN: I hope that when four-wheel brakes are allowed on taxicabs, the right hon. Gentleman will insist on there being a sign at the back giving notice of that fact.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Yes.

  OMNIBUSES, LONDON.
  Captain FRASER: Early this week I gave notice that I would call attention to the question which has arisen in relation to omnibus traffic in London, because that matter is causing grave concern to the proprietors of a large number of motor omnibuses, to their employés, and, more important still, to the travelling public. The Labour Government in 1924 passed a Traffic Act for London which sought to get over some of the difficulties which had arisen owing to the large number of omnibuses which had congregated upon the streets and were causing a degree of congestion. I believe that Members of my party supported that Bill, and, as a result, it became law without very much controversy. I am very sorry that support was given to it without considering some of the possible difficulties which might have arisen, and which in fact have arisen, and I fancy, from what I have been able to gather, that many hon. Members sup parted it not dreaming for one moment that it would be used, as it has been used, in one instance for example, to bolster up a tramway service. The main object of that Act was, I take it, to relieve congestion, but I want initially to deal with this question of congestion and try to show that the Minister of Transport, by the orders and regulations which he has made, may be acting in a way which is contrary to the public interest in his desire to relieve congestion.
  I suggest that congestion should lie relieved mainly because it impedes people in getting about their business. It makes it difficult for men and women to get to and from their offices, and if it reaches a stage such as that which it reached when this Act was contemplated, then it is up to the Minister of Trans port to do something to relieve it, but he must he very careful, I suggest, lest the method which he adopts for relieving congestion does not, in fact, make it infinitely more difficult for people to get to and from their places of business and to move around the Metropolis. The
  2446
  suggestion has been made that there are too many omnibuses in London, and the Minister has had a Regulation framed, which has begun to come into force, which has for its object the removing of 600 omnibuses from the streets of London. The Minister states that there are alternative services which are available when these omnibuses have been removed. As a matter of fact, the alternative services to which he refers are tramways, and I suggest that you are not leaving the public adequate facilities unless the alternative service does three things. The first is that they run across the same route as the service which you are taking off or restricting, and in that connection there are actual cases, where restrictions have been made, where on omnibus began a journey before the tram track started, ran along the tram track, and then continued after the tram track had stopped. To take the omnibus away and then to argue that an adequate service is left because the tram is there is, I suggest, rather a difficult position to maintain. Nor is it a true alternative service unless it travels as frequently as the one which you are restricting, and, unless the price is the same, and I understand that, not only in some Of those eases where restrictions are now made, but in many other parts of London, the independent omnibuses, at least, are able to make profits, charging lower fares than do the trams and even lower fares than the Combine, so that I suggest that a great many persons who have to travel about London may be very embarrassed and very inconvenienced by the attempt which the Minister is making to reduce congestion.
  If congestion holds up men or women and makes it difficult for them to get where they want to get quickly, it is much worse to have an inadequate facility which will not get them there at all, and there are, I am informed, many omnibus routes which cannot conceivably be supplied by tramways as an alternative. It has been made plain to this House that a. very large number of people in various parts of London, and more especially in the North and North-West, are fearful that, if omnibuses arc taken off, they will find the facilities which are left inadequate. I am not discussing for the moment whether they do or do not want to travel on the trams which are there; I am only

  2447
  trying to point out that very often the trams are not there, and that these people will find it more difficult to get about their business, so that, on the question of congestion, I am bound to ask the Minister of Labour if he will reconsider the restrictions and regulation's which he has made. I cannot feel convinced, and I know that very large numbers of people in London are not convinced, that he is rendering the people a public service by the action which he has taken.
  But congestion is not the only reason which is put forward for these restrictions. In a White Paper which has been issued it is frankly and plainly stated that a very important reason why these restrictions on the numbers of omnibuses have to be made is that the Minister conceives it to be his public duty to make solvent a system of tramways which is unable to stand the strain of competition and probably, otherwise, might go out of business. It seems to me that too frequently it is becoming the function of the Government to make insolvent businesses solvent, and this is only another example. The statement is made quite frankly in this White Paper that certain tramway services might go out of business, to the great detriment of the public welfare, if the Minister were not to protect them by removing the competition which independent and other omnibuses are putting up against them. I suggest that for any Government Department to take such a course is curious, but for a Conservative Minister to take such a course, which involves scrapping an organisation which pays in order to enable one which does not pay to continue, is quite difficult to understand. I cannot help feeling that a very large number of those people not only complain of, but, because they fear inconvenience as a result of these restrictions, are also astonished at, the action which is contemplated, on the ground which I have just suggested.
  The conclusion to which I have come is that there is no justification in the public interest for reducing facilities for travelling overground. There are many ways in which congestion in the streets can be relieved. The police authorities are doing a great deal towards relieving congestion by better organisation. If they were to devote a little lees time to pestering owner-drivers and a little more
  2448
  time to regulating traffic, they might do much more than they have done, but I would say that, so far as my own observation is concerned, some of the journeys one has to take are very much quicker since they have busied themselves so thoughtfully and taken so much trouble as they have done to improve traffic by various schemes of administrative action. More can be done in that direction, and there are many ways in which congestion can he relieved, such as by street widenings and by limiting, perhaps, horse traffic to some extent, without taking away from the ordinary man and woman who have to get to and from their work, very often with the utmost difficulty, the omnibuses which are their means of transport, which they like best, and which are most convenient to them. The point which I have made relates solely to this question that I am trying to put before the Minister of the reduction in the numbers of omnibuses. I have advocated and urged that there is no justification for his reducing these omnibuses at all, and that he would do much better were he to restrict them to the present number and not make further reductions.
  3.0 P.M.
  There is a further reason why I feel that it may not be in the public interest for the Minister to reduce the omnibuses at the present time. Constant development is going on in housing on the fringes of London, and that mobile form of transport, the omnibus. is going more and more to find paying, routes which run direct from places where people live to places where they want to work. It is the most suitable form of transport for that particular service, and if now he prejudices the interests of a fair number of independent proprietors, they will not he in business to provide that development which London will need when housing schemes on the fringes of London develop, as they must develop. It cannot be in the interests of the London public that this young business, which is capable of growing and spreading when the time comes, should be, so to speak, killed in its infancy. But if the Minister, in spite of the feeling of the public in London, contends that he must reduce the number by 600, I, then, am obliged to complain very strongly against the way in which the Minister is seeking to reduce the number. In the White Paper, to which

  2449
  I have referred, it is stated that the proposal is to reduce these omnibuses in the proportion of two from the London General Omnibus Company and its associated companies, and one from the independent proprietors, and in this White Paper there are arguments which seek to show that that is a fair arrangement.
  As far as I can understand, the only argument to justify that basis is something on these lines: The London General Omnibus Company and its associated companies sent a number of omnibuses to the War, and they were promised that, after the War, they should be allowed to make up their fleet to its pre-War complement. I do not know whether the Combine was paid for the use of those omnibuses, but I can scarcely imagine it was not. I do not think there are many precedents for services, which should be voluntarily rendered by persons and companies to the State in times of emergency, being made conditional. The independent omnibus owners and their men, who, I am glad to know, are mainly ex-service men, did not extort promises before they gave their services, and I cannot feel there was, in fact, very sound justification for making this promise to the Combine. My object is not in any seine to overthrow the promise. I am going to try to show that the suggestion I am about to make to the Minister will leave the promise fulfilled. But even if the promise were made, and is to be fulfilled, or has been fulfilled, I would suggest that the conditions which have now arisen of congestion and difficulty, which we must meet in some way or another, are conditions which were not in the mind of the Home Secretary who gave this promise in the War. The conditions have arisen through altered circumstances, and I do not see how any promise can remain binding on the community in perpetuity when circumstances alter, and when at the time the promise matured, namely, the signing of the Armistice and a year or two afterwards, the promise was, in fact, fulfilled. Therefore, there would be every justification for reducing the Combine omnibuses below the number which was involved in that promise, but this is not necessary.
  The facts are that, after the War, when a certain time had elapsed, the Combine had replaced the full complement of its
  2450
  fleet. Others began to come into the field, and the Combine increased its number of omnibuses in order to try to freeze these new competitors out. The result, according to the statement made by the Minister, in answer to a question I put to him early this week, is that the number of omnibuses which the London General Omnibus Company and its associated companies had was something over 1,000 more last July, I think it was, than was necessary to bring it up to its pre-War complement, which was the subject of this promise. If the whole 600 omnibuses were taken from the fleet of the Combine, it would still leave the Combine with that promise fulfilled, and I cannot see that the promise can be any conceivable reason for basing the proportion quite arbitrarily at two to one. It seems to me that promise was fulfilled and finished with, and now a new set of circumstances arises, and we find that the proportion of Combine omnibuses to independent omnibuses is as eight to one. I suggest that no other basis for cutting, if there must be cutting, is a fair one than eight to one, and I would ask the Minister if he would not reconsider the very arbitrary figure he has chosen, and which his Advisory Committee and he have sought to justify by arguments, taking us back to War time promises, which were fulfilled long before this difficulty arose and the Traffic Act was passed.
  I know the Minister will say he has a very strong and an influential Advisory Committee, and that it is unanimous. I know that members of the Advisory Committee, if they have stayed here, will say I am pleading for a special interest, and that I have ignored the problem which was set them of curing some of the difficulties from which London traffic was suffering. The Minister, I am sure, will not want to shelter behind the Advisory Committee. The Advisory Committee may well devote the whole of its time, and probably should, to trying to cure this traffic difficulty, and it may advise the Minister what it thinks is the best way to do it. But the Minister cannot confine himself to such a narrow term of reference. He cannot be concerned solely with the very narrow question of how to relieve traffic congestion in London, and he cannot accept recommendations which are based solely upon that narrow field of inquiry. He must

  2451
  have regard to the public policy. He must have regard to the feelings in and outside the House, and I suggest he must have regard to Conservative principles. I cannot help feeling that the action which is being taken to strengthen the Combine—I do not say that was its object, but that is its effect — and to secure more control for his Department, is contrary to the principle to which the majority of his supporters adhere, and to which they would desire, if possible, that he should adhere. Rather would they see him support the private enterprise of the smaller man who stakes all he has got in his business, who runs it more efficiently, who gives the public a better service, and a service at lower fares.
  I hope very much that the Minister will find it possible to allay a very great deal of dissatisfaction which exists in the minds of the travelling public in regard to this matter, and will, at the same time, prevent the possibility, which is getting nearer and nearer, of the Combine in London traffic becoming absolute. Any inconvenience which may be suffered by making alterations in the scheme which he has so elaborately prepared, will be nothing in comparison with the inconvenience and inefficiency which may arise, and to which the public will be subjected, if the Combine and the monopoly really become absolute The one protection which the community has from the possibility that this Combine should become absolute either in the hands of private enterprise or in the hands of the State, is that small men shall, to the largest possible extent, be able to compete, and use their own initiative to serve the public and keep down the fares.
  Mr. COUPER: I beg to call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that there is not a quorum present.
  Mr. SPEAKER: There was an honourable understanding that the House was not to be counted out on this Motion.
  Mr. MAXTON: I do not want to interfere with your suggestion on this matter, but it seems to me to be rather a serious matter that an honourable understanding of this nature should suspend, as it were, the Standing Order of this House. I am asking you, Sir, if you are not abrogating
  2452
  the rule of this House that allows any Member to call attention to the fact that 40 Members are not present?
  Mr. SPEAKER: It was in the interests of Private Members, and at the request of Private Members, that the Government undertook, so far as they could, not to allow the House to be counted out on this Adjournment Motion, so that Members might have an opportunity of bringing forward their grievances. It is quite true that this is a departure on my part, but it is in the interests of back-bench Members, and I would ask that Members should not move that the House be counted out.
  Mr. COUPER: If you wish it, Sir, I desire to withdraw my Motion.
  Sir HARRY BRITTAIN: I will promise that the House will not be kept more than a few minutes by what I have to say.
  Mr. COUPER: I wish to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if it is in Order for an hon. Member on the other side to say in regard to my request, "Have I been put up to it by the Combine "?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I did not hear any such remark. If such an expression was used, it was very improper.
  Mr. COUPER: The hon. Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) addressed that remark to me.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I hope the hon. Member for Argyllshire will withdraw that suggestion.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: I merely asked who put the hon. Member up to it, and if that remark offended the hon. Member, I withdraw it.
  Mr. COUPER: The words were, "Did the Combine put you up to that." I desire an apology here and now.
  Captain FRASER: I think that the hon. Member for Argyllshire said jokingly, "Who put you up to that"? I followed with the remark, "Was it the Combine"? If that caused offence to the hon. Member, I withdraw it.
  Sir H. BRITTAIN: I would like to endorse almost everything the hon. and gallant Member for North St. Pancras (Captain Fraser) has said. In making any criticism of the London Traffic Advisory Committee, one must appreciate the enormous difficulty they have had to

  2453
  contend against in attempting to deal with one of the most complicated traffic systems it the greatest city of the world. I do not propose to cover the general question which has been so adequately covered already, but I would like to say a word or two with regard to my own district, that is the West side of London in Middlesex. We are naturally more interested in our own part of the world than in any other part. With regard to trains, I have no doubt that in many parts of the country and of London they serve a good purpose. They can take away larger loads of people than any other kind of transport, but Middlesex and the Acton district have a bad tram system. The trams are I am told dirty, badly looked after, and run on an extremely uneven track.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: Where is that?
  Sir H. BRITTAIN: It is in the most important constituency in England. People in that part of London have formed the "omnibus habit." We have a first-rate service of excellent clean omnibuses which run to time. I know I speak for the great majority when I say that they prefer to travel in the omnibuses rather than in the trams. There is no question of overcrowding in these streets. I have looked into this matter since first it was mooted in the House, and I am sure that the type of men who are running these independent omnibuses is exactly the type that the Minister of Transport would like to support. They are as good a type of individuals, who believe in individual enterprise, as it would be possible to find anywhere. I do not want to stress the suggestion that nearly all of them are ex-service men, because I readily agree that the men who run the trams and the great majority of those engaged in transport work are also ex-service men, but they are men who have had the pluck to invest their money, in some cases their all, in their omnibuses, and if their living is taken away, it means for many of them absolute ruin. There is so much feeling on the matter in my constituency that the Mayor and Corporation of Acton have pasted a resolution asking me to do all I possibly can to keep this service on the roads.
  I would refer specially to Route 526, which has proved an absolute God-send to people in that part of London. It runs
  2454
  north from Acton before it swings back later into London. This part of Middlesex is one of the most rapidly growing districts in London. It was formerly an open space. It is said that 15 years ago partridges were shot there; now it is covered by factories. A rapid and regular omnibus service is of great value to the people there. I understand from the Minister of Transport that this particular route is being reduced, and that an eight minutes' regular service is to be turned into a 30 minutes' service. I am assured by the men running the service—and it is self-evident—that it is perfectly impossible to make that route pay and these men must go under. They will lose their business and those who have been well served by the omnibuses will have to resort to different forms of travel to cover the same ground, for there is no one line of trams or omnibuses which covers the route now covered by these omnibuses. I realise to the full the difficulties that the Minister is under with regard to London's traffic, but I do urge him to do all he can for this part of the world, and for this great and rapidly-growing community on the West side of London. We create, with the exception of Coventry, more motor business than any other division of the Kingdom, so that we arc very good to him. We do not ask anything unfair. We ask for the right to have the best form of travelling facilities which can be given to this largely inhabited district.
  Colonel APPLIN: I need not assure the House that I shall not keep them for more than a few moments, but I wish to associate myself very strongly with what both the hon. Members who have preceded me have said, and to point out that I am not speaking for a mere hundred thousand or so of people who are living in my own district. I am speaking for literally millions of the inhabitants of Greater London, when I say that if the private omnibuses are taken off in favour of the Combine, and if the Combine is allowed, as it is doing, to buy up the private omnibuses, then all I can say is that when that is accomplished the travelling public will lose their greatest facilities for travel. Before the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Transport finally decides this question perhaps he will consider some of the points that have been put forward,

  2455
  not on behalf of the owners of the omnibuses, but the travelling public who demand and require these omnibuses for their use. It may be that if the proposals put forward are carried out we shall render the streets possibly a little less congested, but we shall render literally millions of people uncomfortable by depriving them of a cheap means of travel.
  The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley)The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley) rose—
  Mr. MACQUSTEN: I understood I was to be allowed to speak on this Motion.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and learned Gentleman has exhausted his right to speak, as he has already spoken on the Motion before the House.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: No, Sir.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Yes, the Motion before the House is, "That this House do now adjourn." The hon. Member has spoken to that.
  Colonel ASHLEY: I am prepared to give way to the hon. and learned Gentleman.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Argyllshire may, by leave of the House, speak again.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: I am much obliged for that kindness and courtesy. I have spoken on the matter of the taxis, and this is omnibuses. I thought they were different, but when I come to the House I find they are the same. The fares are different! However, the position of this matter, I think, is to be found in the White Paper, page 6, where the Minister of Transport tells us:
  "Immediately prior to the War the London General Omnibus Company and its associate companies had a virtual monopoly of omnibus services in the Metropolitan Police area, and at this time, so far as operation on tramway routes was concerned, at any rate on the routes operated by those tramway undertakings in which the combine were interested, omnibuses were only run as supplementary and complementary to the tramways."
  The Combine had created nearly a, monopoly. After the War a number of men set up independent omnibuses, and, of course, that might occasionally congest the streets.
  Mr. MAXTON: That is private enterprise.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: Yes, private enterprise. I am in favour of the small enterprise, but not of monopoly. I am not blaming the Combine for the action they took as a Combine, by which ultimately the private people should disappear, but this sort of thing means monopoly ultimately, and the public have to pay in the long run. Having created a certain situation the Combine were the very people who complained about it. They got terribly concerned about the overcrowded streets of London, and this after had put on thousands of vehicles. If the matter had been left to the ordinary economic laws you would have got the Combine losing so much money with their extra omnibuses that they would have taken them off. They deliberately created the situation, which shows how occasionally you can get capital and labour to work hand in hand putting their heads together for the purpose of arranging a matter.
  The extraordinary situation created reminds one of nothing so much as what happens sometimes in a South American Republic. It would appear that the tubes and the district railways do not, or did not, pay, and that really unless omnibuses were there to assist the tubes that a very large amount of money would be lost and the tubes would have to be shut down. The air in the tubes is stuffy—ask any of those engaged there. It is much the same here, but that is the fault of hon. Members for making speeches. The Traffic Committee seems to think they have a right to interfere and that the Combine must be made a paying concern. I have a great respect for the Combine, and for the ability with which it has been managed, they do extraordinarily well, but there are alterations they might make in the means of access to the tube platforms, so that nobody has to take a single step. The escalators terrify all the middle-aged people who go down them.
  Mr. B. SMITH: On a point of Order. Are we discussing the Traffic Act and omnibuses, or tubes and escalators?
  Mr. SPEAKER: We certainly must not discuss an Act of Parliament; we must discuss only the Minister's administration under the Act.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: The administration is directed to making the Combine and all its enterprises solvent; they are sacrificing these small omnibuses, these independent omnibuses in the pursuit of that object. There has been nothing like it since Robespierre, in his particular game of dividing everything all round, discovered that there were too many French people for each of them to get any substantial sum, and so determined to exterminate two-thirds of them in of order that there might be something to divide up. In the same way the Minister of Transport, along with the Traffic Committee, has decided that he has to set the Combine on its feet, and instead of telling the Combine to go and buy the in men out in a respectable fashion, he is taking these omnibuses off the road.
  The Transport Act ought not to be administered in this partial and unjust fashion. The Minister has no right to use it as an economic weapon, and that is what it is being used as. Hon. Members can read all about it in the Report of the Committee. There it is shown how the different enterprises pay. [An How. MEMBER: "And he is chairman of the Anti-Socialist Union."] Yes, that is the extraordinary thing. It just shows how, when we "get down to brass tacks," even the chairman of the Anti-Socialist Union seems to wander away into what I may call Socialistic tactics. It is the most extraordinary thing I have seen. Millions of people concur in what I am saying—we have had a petition from a million and a-half people—and the whole public of London are wondering what has gone wrong with the Imperial Parliament that it should commit such an injustice and allow the public interest to be so grossly and crudely sacrificed.
  Colonel ASHLEY: sometimes wonder why the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire. (Mr. Macquisten) shows such great interest in London traffic. If he had attacked me for not giving him enough money for his rural roads in Argyllshire, or for the building of a pier in some out of the way village in his constituency, I could understand it; but. I cannot understand why he has made a sort of speciality of the London traffic question almost to the exclusion of many hon. Members who are more intimately concerned with it. But be that as it may; every hon. Member has
  2458
  a right to talk on any subject in this House, and I do not in the least complain of his having brought forward this question. May I say to the House at once, and 1 am sure that in this I am speaking on behalf of the London Traffic Advisory Committee as well, that none of us like this job? It is most distasteful to us to have to take away licences from anybody, particularly from men who, in the desire to make an honest living, have, in some cases, sunk their all in this particular form of enterprise and are making an honest living at it.
  I would, however, ask hon. Members to put themselves in the position of the Minister and of his advisers. The London Traffic Act is on the Statute Book and the Minister and his advisory committee have got to work it; that is their statutory duty, and they cannot shirk it. It was put on the Statute Book in order, among other things, that the Minister should do what he could to relieve the congestion in this great city, and that, consistently with the public interest, he should see that all the various means of transport have a chance of living together, and so help in the solution of the difficulty of getting the mass of the working people to and from their work in the morning and evening. It sounds an obvious thing to say, but I think hon. Members have forgotten, that if there be congestion the only way to reduce it is to limit the number of vehicles on the street. We cannot do it in any other possible way.
  Sir H. BRITTAIN: Take off the horses.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: It will cure itself, if you leave it alone.
  Colonel ASHLEY: When it is remembered that something like 4,000 mechanically-propelled vehicles are coming upon the roads of the country every week, I am afraid it is not likely to cure itself, but is more likely to get much worse.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: Limit private motor cars.
  Colonel ASHLEY: I will not say that is impossible—perhaps private motorists will have to be interfered with in no distant future; it may well come. But the attention of the Ministry of Transport was drawn first of all to the omnibuses because they are mentioned in the Act, and it was my duty, and the duty

  2459
  of the Traffic Advisory Committee who advise me, to take action in this direction—not only to reduce the traffic congestion, that is important, but, further—I am not the least ashamed of it—in order that the trains of this great metropolis may continue to exist. As a motorist I do not like trains, they get in my way, they are a nuisance to me, but it is obvious to anybody who has studied this question for five minutes, that it would be physically impossible to get the working people to and from work unless the trams of the metropolis were allowed to exist. Under present conditions they cannot exist. Privately-owned tramways are verging on bankruptcy, and I am informed that unless something is done at once some of them will actually cease to function. Then where will be your workmen's fares? There will be no workmen's fares at all. Unless something is done, the amount of money which the ratepayers of London have to find for the London County Council tramways will rise from £250,000 to, probably, £500,000 or £750,000 in two or three years. It these trams go out of the picture, who is going to pay for the upkeep of the roads for which they now find the money—the upkeep of the track and 18 inches of road on each side of it? The ratepayers. If they go out of the picture, who is going to make up the rates on their equipment and buildings? The ratepayers. I put it to the House that it is not such a simple thing to leave things alone.
  Captain FRASER: May I ask whether the ratepayers really have anything to do with the matter in this case, seeing that the trams affected belong to private companies associated with the combine?
  Colonel ASHLEY: I am afraid the hon. and gallant Member is, to a large extent, misinformed. May I tell him what is the position of the trains? £28,000,000 is sunk in trams in the Metropolitan area. Of that £28,000,000, £17,000,000 represents the amount sunk by the London County Council.
  Captain FRASER: I am well aware of that. But the point is that the trams with which the independent omnibus proprietors are competing are not council trams. Those which are immediately concerned are trains associated with the combine.
  Colonel ASHLEY: Had the hon. and gallant Member allowed me to finish my sentence, I should have come to that. £17,000,000 has been put into the tramway system of London by the London County Council, about £5,000,000 has been put in by various borough councils and the other £5,000,000 has been found by private enterprise. It is quite true, as the hon. and gallant Member says, that in the Uxbridge Road the trams are privately owned, but it is a pure chance that the first order concerns private tramways There is £28,000,000 sterling sunk in the trams of London, and, on the other hand, only £7,000,000 sunk in omnibuses. I am advised, not only by my technical advisers, but by the Advisory Committee that if the trams cease to function the people cannot get to their daily work. That is something which must override all other considerations. I listened to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for North St. Pancras (Captain Fraser) with great pleasure. His point was that it was unfair to withdraw these omnibuses in the proportion of two owned by the London General Omnibus Company and its associated companies to one owned by the independent companies, and he argued that the proportion should be more like nine to one.
  I may say on this matter that I was guided by the advice of the Traffic Advisory Committee, which consists of a number of very able representative gentlemen. They unanimously came to the conclusion that the date of 1923 should be taken as the datum line on which the decrease should be made, and they fixed the proportion of the reduction at two to one. The reason they gave seems to me to be an irresistible one. They said that at that date the London General Omnibus Company had got hack to its pre-War strength, and that the decrease should lie based on the increase since that date. On this basis the decrease worked out in the proportion of two to one. Hon. Members who have spoken in this Debate do not seem to have appreciated the logic of the situation and the arguments which induced the Traffic Advisory Committee to come to that decision. The difficulties seem to have been exaggerated through a want of knowledge of the actual situation. May I point out that there are some 5,000 motor omnibuses in London,

  2461
  and not more than about 600 or 700 will be taken off in all over a period of two years.
  Of course I do not bind myself to 600 or 700, but. I am trying to give a picture of the problem with which we are faced. If you take the proportion at two to one, that means 400 taken off the Combine and its associated companies and some 200 by the other proprietors. I put it to the House that no great injustice can arise if the London General Omnibus Company, through its activities outside the metropolis, is able to absorb the men taken off certain areas, and if about 180 or 200 of the omnibuses owned by the rest. of the companies are taken off during the next two years. I am not a hard-hearted man, nor are the members of the Advisory Committee, and we ate doing our best to help these men. We have suggested that should be a compensation fund and 80 per cent. of those interested have already consented to come into it. It seems to me that we are largely responsible for the trouble which has arisen because when we considered this matter in March last year we were too soft-hearted. We are now doing all we can to find alternative routes for these men. After all it is only a small matter, but we shall continue to do our best, and I think hon. Members will find that in the end very little injustice will really be done. I ran promise that as far as the Committee and myself are concerned, we will give unremitting attention to this matter, and try and help the men all we can.

  TRANSPORT, GLASGOW.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I wish to raise the question of omnibus congestion in Glasgow, and would like to ask a few questions with regard to the situation in that city. I want the Minister of Transport to consider the position in Glasgow in order to see if something ear not be done at an early date. The position there is becoming very serious. I understand that last week a deputation approached the Minister of Trans-pot t on this question. That deputation consisted of certain representatives of the Magistrates of Glasgow, together with the general manager of the tramways. I understand that a very distinguished servant of the Ministry, Sir Henry Maybury, is considering this matter. I want to urge upon the right
  2462
  hon. Gentleman the urgency of this problem in Glasgow. The capital of Glasgow people has been invested in tramways to the extent of about £6,500,000. We provide a cheap service of trams and in the situation which has arisen that service is in great danger.
  There is another thing I am even more anxious about than that, and it is the alarming increase in regard to the fatalities connected with children in the Glasgow streets. The figures were given recently by the town clerk. In the east end of Glasgow the child death-rate in connection with omnibuses and the general traffic is alarming, in fact it is worse in Glasgow than in London because the streets are much narrower in Glasgow. The result is that the consequences are much more serious. Apart from the problem of the ratepayers' money being sunk in these municipal tramway enterprises, we have to consider the appalling death rate arising from accidents owing to the mad and reckless competition which exists in Glasgow between the trams and the omnibuses. I hope that the Minister will urgently take this matter up and deal with the problem of the Glasgow streets. It is one of the most acute problems arising at the moment and is tending to become worse every day. One of the tragic features is that Glasgow needs to build houses fact, and that the faster Glasgow provides houses, the greater and the more terrible is the congestion and the fatalities in the centre of our city. The moment we build a new suburb, new omnibuses are put on to ply on that very route, and, therefore, cause tremendous congestion. I do not know Sir Henry Maybury, but I understand he is held in high regard by large numbers of my Labour colleagues in Glasgow. I hope that he, along with the Minister will apply their minds to this problem and get something done.
  The men who own the omnibuses employ a good deal of female labour, and. youths' labour. They pay any kind of wage, and employ their workpeople under any kind of conditions, making them work shocking hours in some cases, and they are therefore competing with the trains under most unfair conditions. That is an aspect which I hope will he considered, but the main question is to see if something cannot be done to

  2463
  mitigate in our Glasgow streets the terrible fatalities which are increasing. In Glasgow parents dread to send their children out to cross any of the main streets. I am not exaggerating when I say that. The school children in the east end of the city are very badly hit in that way. Hon. Members who defend private enterprise will know that what I am saying in regard to fatalities is true. I hope the Minister and his officials will use their capacity and their knowledge to solve the problem.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: I raised this question of the omnibuses plying on the streets of Glasgow about eight months ago with the Secretary of State for Scotland. At that time I appealed to the right hon. Gentleman, who is also the Minister of Transport in Scotland, and I told him that if any accident happened in the Tollcross Road I would impeach him at the Bar of the House of Commons for the murder of anyone who was killed. Since that time there have been about a dozen people killed on that road by those omnibuses, plying between Hamilton, Motherwell, Lanark and the other Lanarkshire towns outside Glasgow. I pointed out at that time that there were 45 different companies all competing for the traffic of the City of Glasgow, in addition to the tramways. In the Toll-cross road a fortnight after I raised the matter, there were two little children killed, I am not exaggerating when I say that there have been a dozen people killed since I raised the question. Nothing has been done; they are still going on. What my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) has said is perfectly true.
  When I was going to the recent by-election, in which we lashed the Tories from Dan to Beersheba, and returned my colleague here with a 6,000 majority, I travelled in an omnibus which was stopped by the police. The driver was 19 and the conductor was a boy of 14, so that they would be paid according to their age. The proprietors are running these omnibuses on cheap labour, and those two boys would not have got as much as a man's wage. This is a very serious matter, and the trouble has been increasing the whole of the winter. The tramway department in Glasgow has been widening that road right out to
  2464
  Uddingston, and that made it worse for traffic. These omnibuses are flying at 20 and 30 miles an hour along that road. I would appeal to the Minister of Transport to see if something cannot be done. Certainly, we shall have to do something to raise it in some other form, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals has stated, parents are afraid to send their children down on to the main streets. In my own case we dread sending our children on a message to the Tollcross Road because it means crossing the road; my wife would not send them. My mother, who is 80 years of age, has to cross that road to go to the Kirk. Everyone of us has a dread of that road. It is all because of private enterprise. The Glasgow Corporation is handicapped, because its Tramway Department has to maintain the road 18 inches on either side of the rails and has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on doing so. Again; the Tramway Department are building a new bridge and going to all that expense. Yet those omnibuses pay nothing. Of course, they pay a petrol tax—
  Colonel ASHLEY: They pay £84 a year.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I understand that that £84 is paid to the Road Fund. Does any proportion at all come back to the streets and roads within the City of Glasgow? I believe that none of it comes back, and it is therefore perfectly true for my hon. Friend to say that they pay nothing.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: The Minister, in saying that they paid so much, inferred that it came back to the streets of Glasgow.
  Colonel ASHLEY: I think the hon. Member is not quite fair to me. He said they paid nothing. and I simply remarked that they had to pay £84.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: They are on pneumatic tyres, and will not wear the streets much.
  4.0 P.M.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: My hon. Friend says they are on pneumatic tyres. I know most of them are on rubber tyres The hon. Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) does not know much about it, although he may have got money in-

  2465
  vested in the motor car industry. I was telling the House how the tramway department in Glasgow was handicapped as against this motor traction transport method, because the Glasgow tramway has a tremendously heavy upkeep on the roads and the motors have not that heavy upkeep. I hope the Minister will go into this, because it is a very serious business, and we have several schools right on the main road. On three or four different occasions children have been killed since I raised this on the Floor of the House. Unless something is done the inhabitants will have to take drastic action themselves to safeguard those little children who are placed in such jeopardy with there cars flying past them.
  Mr. MAXTON: I should have liked to call attention to the very bad transport facilities there are in Argyllshire and the West of Scotland. If the Minister has not visited that part of the country it is a pleasure he has to look forward to. Perhaps my hon. and learned Friend would give him an opportunity in one of his election campaigns to see in what very bad condition the roads are and how very few the facilities are.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: I have made representations over and over again to the Minister, so far without any definite result. I shall be very glad if the hon. Member will assist me.
  Mr. MAXTON: There is ample opportunity for private enterprise. The hon. Member need not wait for the Minister, or even for the General Omnibus Company, to operate. He is in close and intimate touch with many private omnibus owners, and he can point out the great mileage there is for anyone with courage, initiative and a small amount of capital, and there are some of the most interesting and exciting roads that any motorist could possibly desire. I should have liked to cal attention to that matter, but really I think it is quite unfair to the few Members who are left in the House, but more particularly to the many officials, humble and important, who have been on duty for practically two days, that we should be discussing minor things of this description, and therefore I will not call attention to the lark of transport facility in Argyllshire.
  Colonel ASHLEY: Perhaps, by the leave of the House, I may say one sentence as a matter of courtesy to the hon. Members. A deputation did come from the Corporation of Glasgow last week, and laid their views before me, and I understand that they are coming again to put forward their considered opinion at no distant date. What they asked would, apart from whether it is good or bad, require legislation, and I must say that the trouble I have had over London traffic, and the grey hairs that have appeared in my head in connection with it, do not encourage me very much to accede to Glasgow's request; but Cie hon. Members may rely upon me, when the deputation comes again, to listen most attentively to what they have to say.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman say why it is that, in speaking of this offer which he has made to receive a deputation from Glasgow, he does not add that he would be equally willing to receive the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) as a deputation representing that great county? We have just heard from the hon. and learned Member that he has made repeated appeals in vain—that he has endeavoured to soften the hard heart of the Minister of Transport, but has failed. Is not to-day, when we have got the Minister in a chastened and softened mood, the time for the hon. and learned Member to repeat his appeal, and to use his opportunities for getting in and endeavouring to tack himself on to the Glasgow Corporation deputation?
  Mr. BUCHANAN: May I ask the Minister, as we are interested, as Members of Parliament, in this Glasgow matter, when we shall get to know his ideas as to what is to be done?
  Colonel ASHLEY: I do not think I can give any real idea to the hon. Member. It depends so much upon what I hear when the deputation comes again. Perhaps he will communicate with me privately.
  Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Six Minutes after Four o'Clock, until Tuesday, 13th April, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of this day.