Commons Sitting of 23 November 1925

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Bethlem Hospital Bill [Lords] (by Order), Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
LEITH HARBOUR AND DOCKS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL,
"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Leith Harbour and Docks,'' presented by Colonel Sir JOHN GILMOUR; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered Tomorrow.
RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
Colonel Sir ARTHUR HOLBROOK: I beg to present a petition from the chairman and members of the Stockbridge Hoard of Guardians and Rural District Council against the Rating and Valuation Bill, 1925.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  INDIA.

    POST OFFICE RUNNERS (MURDERS).
    Mr. AMMONasked the Undersecretary of State for India whether Reports concerning the murders of the Post Office runners on the Patagram, Mathabhanga, and the Kasipalayan Kurumandur lines in May and September last, respectively, were forwarded to his Department; can he say whether any compensation has been awarded to the next-of-kin; and whether, in view of the increase in the number of such murders, recommendation will be made to the Indian Government as to the arming of runners?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Earl Winterton): No such Reports have been received. In accordance with their usual practice, the Government of India will no doubt grant compensation to dependants in these cases if the circumstances justify it. Runners are at present armed with spears, but the Government of India are examining the question of the advisability of providing them with revolvers.

    COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF.
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Undersecretary of State for India whether the Commander-in-Chief of the Indian Army is a member of the executive committee of the Council of State; and, if so, under what authority he occupies that position?
    Earl WINTERTON: There is no executive committee of the Council of State. The Commander-in-Chief is appointed a member of the Governor-General's Executive Council under Section 36 of the Government of India Act by Royal Warrant. He is nominated as an official member of the Council of State by the Governor-General under No. III of the Statutory Electoral Rules for that body.

    LOCAL OPTION BILL (BOMBAY LEGISLATURE).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, seeing that the introduction of Mr. Pradhan's modified Local Option Bill into the Bombay Legislature was vetoed by the Governor, Sir Leslie Wilson, after consultation with the Viceroy and the Secretary of State, he will say on what grounds the Secretary of State took the step of refusing permission to allow discussion of this subject?
    Earl WINTERTON: Sir Leslie Wilson did not consult my Noble Friend before refusing to allow the introduction of this Bill.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask whether Sir Leslie Wilson has given any grounds for his refusal to allow discussion of this Bill?
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Is it not the practice that no grounds need be given?
    Sir HENRY CRAIK: Is it not the policy of the Secretary of State to leave

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    to local government and governors discretion in these matters?
    Earl WINTERTON: The answer to all three questions is, I think, that it is within the statutory competence of the Governor of Bombay to refuse to allow the Bill to be introduced, and there is no obligation upon him, tinder law or by constitutional practice, to give any reason for so doing.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask whether, in view of the moderate character of this Bill, we are to understand that the Governor will not allow any discussion of any question of local option?
    Earl WINTERTON: That is a question, if I may say so, that I do not think I am entitled to answer.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Will the Noble Lord—
    Sir H. CRAIK: On a point of Order. Is it not the rule that the proper place for questions of this sort is the Legislature of Bombay, and not here?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I did not see anything in the original question to which I could take objection, but I do not think the matter ought to be pursued.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: What I wanted to ascertain was whether we in this House can find out in any way the grounds of the Governor's objection to this Bill.
    Mr. SPEAKER: That has been already answered by the Minister.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: Is it to the advantage of this House or the administration of Indian affairs that matters of this kind should be discussed, question and answer, in the way the right hon. Gentleman is doing?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I do not wish to fly in the face of your ruling, Mr. Speaker, but are we not entitled to find out what actuates the Governor in preventing this discussion?
    Mr. SPEAKER: It is not a matter for this House.

    LEGISLATIVE COUNCILS AND ASSEMBLIES (CANDIDATURE).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the recommendation of the majority of the Muddiman Committee that politicians who had been imprisoned for political offences should now be permitted to stand for legislative councils and assemblies has been rejected by the Government of India; and, if so, why?
    Earl WINTERTON: The Government of India have given effect to the recommendations of the majority of the Muddiman Committee on this subject, and then notifications were presented to the House on the 16th November. I shall be glad to send the hon. and gallant Member a copy of a resolution issued by them on the 20th October in further explanation of the matter, if he requires it.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Are we to understand that this concession by the Government meets absolutely the point of the Muddiman Committee Report; for instance, are people now barred to be allowed to stand for the Councils?
    Earl WINTERTON: The position is that under the now regulations it is open to any person who by reason of the regulations is barred from being nominated, to apply to the local government, or to the Government of India, as the case may be, for permission to stand.

    SECRETARY OF STATE'S COUNCIL (COST).
    Sir FREDRIC WISEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India the cost to the Exchequer of the Council of the Secretary of State for India in 1913–14 and in 1925–26?
    Earl WINTERTON: No charge fell on the Exchequer in respect of the Council of India in 1913–1914, the entire cost of the Secretary of State's establishment being then borne by Indian revenues. Since the passing of the Government of India Act a contribution has been made by Imperial revenues to the cost of the India Office. The approximate amount included, in respect of the Council of India, in the contribution for 1925–1926, was £18,400.

    RUPEE EXCHANGE.
    Sir F. WISEasked the Undersecretary of State for India the amount

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    and what is being done with the large sums of sterling remitted to this country by the Government of India as a means of pegging the rupee exchange at about 1s. 63/16d.; and when does the Secretary of State propose remitting the amount back to India?
    Earl WINTERTON: The remittances from India in the current financial year amount to about £26,500,000. Apart from £3,000,000 credited to the paper currency reserve against the issue of notes in India, the balance (namely, £23,500,000) remains at the account of the Home Treasury towards meeting the estimated remittance requirements of the year. The utilisation of drawings from India depends on their amount, money market conditions in India, and other factors which it is not possible to predict. My hon. Friend will understand that Government's permanent policy regarding the rupee exchange cannot be determined pending the Report of the recently appointed Royal Commission.
    Sir F. WISE: May I ask whether the pegging of the rupee exchange in this way does not affect our trade?
    Earl WINTERTON: I cannot altogether accept the hon. Gentleman's interpretation of the situation as it stands, and I hope he will allow me to answer any farther question on the subject when the permanent policy is decided on, which will not be until after the Report of the Royal Commission.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: In view of the effect of the pegging of the exchange on the export trade of Lancashire, are we to understand that there is. as stated in the question, a definite pegging of the rupee exchange at 1s. 6 3/16d.?
    Earl WINTERTON: No, I have already said I cannot accept my hon. Friend's premises.

    SUBORDINATE SERVICES.
    Mr. WARD LAW-MILNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he will state, actually or approximately, the total number of officers of the provincial services who have been officially recognised as of non-Asiatic domicile?
    Earl WINTERTON: The information required can be obtained only by reference to the Government of India, to whom a telegram of inquiry has been sent.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he will state the conditions under which Europeans are recruited in India to the subordinate services; whether the question of domicile arises; whether they are engaged for permanent service or liable to dismissal at notice; and whether generally they are subject to conditions of leave, pay, pensions, or allowances in any way analogous to those under which the members of the All-India and provincial services hold their appointments?
    Earl WINTERTON: Conditions of entry to the subordinate services in India are fixed by the Government of India and local Governments under whose control those services are, and I regret that information is not available as to the Regulations in force in different provinces, or as to the points referred to in the second and third parts of the question. As regards the last part of the question, the leave and pensions of the subordinate services are at present regulated as in the case of the All-India services by the Fundamental Rules and the Civil Service Regulations; but, subject again to the Fundamental Rules, the fixation of their pay and allowances is a matter for the local government concerned.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India what decision, if any, has been come to as the result of the consultations between the Government of India and the provincial governments in regard to the consideration of applications from individual officers of the provincial services of non-Asiatic domicile for the extension to them of all or any of the privileges accorded in accordance with the All-India services in accordance with the recommendation of the Lee Commission?
    Earl WINTERTON: My Noble Friend hopes to receive the recommendations of the Government of India on this subject at an early date. A decision on it will be expedited as much as possible, once those recommendations have been received.

    MR. S. C. BOSE.
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Undersecretary of State for India whether he can state the reason why Mr. S. C. Bose, who is at present under detention at Mandalay as a political prisoner, is not allowed to receive copies of the Calcutta newspaper, "Forward"?
    Earl WINTERTON: Mr. Bose already receives two newspapers, the maximum number permitted under the Regulations. My Noble Friend proposes to consult the Government of Bengal as to the possibility of substituting "Forward" for one of these.
    Major Sir RICHARD BARNETT: May I ask whether there will be any objection to Mr. Bose having warm slippers and a hot-water bag?

    SOUTH AFRICA (INDIAN SUBJECTS).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will lay Papers relating to the negotiations between the Government of India and the Union Government of South Africa in connection with the anti-Indian legislative proposals of the latter Government?
    Earl WINTERTON: Communications are. still passing between the two Governments, and I do not think that any good purpose would be served by laying Papers.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can we be assured that Papers will be laid before any legislation by the Government of South Africa is passed into law?
    Earl WINTERTON: It would be quite unconstitutional to promise that, for the reason that the Government of South Africa have an absolute right to pass any such legislation.

  TANGANYIKA.

    AMANI INSTITUTE.
    Mr. RAMSDENasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state the policy of the Government with regard to the Amani Institute?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Amery): I am glad to be able to say that the Governments of the East African territories are prepared to grant sufficient funds to enable the Institute to be reopened. The necessary capital expenditure in this connection can be found from the proposed guaranteed loan for which a Bill will in due course be laid before Parliament. His Majesty's
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    Government are fully alive to the importance of Amani for the future development of East Africa.

    TABORA-SHINYANGA RAILWAY.
    Mr. J. SANDEMAN ALLENasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies out of what funds the Tabora-Shinyanga line in Tanganyika Territory is being constructed; whether a suitable route to connect Shinyanga with Mwanza has been surveyed; and whether there is any prospect of the Tabora-Shinyanga line being prolonged to Mwanza at an early date, in view of the rapid development of cotton-growing in the region that would be served by this line?
    Mr. AMERY: Up to the present construction has been paid for out of loan grants-in-aid provided in current Colonial Services Estimates. The preliminary surveys of the Shinyanga-Mwanza section are expected to be ready early this December, and I hope that it will be possible to start construction as soon as the route has been settled.

    IMPERIAL COLLEGE OF TROPICAL AGRICULTURE.
    Mr. RAMSDENasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if representations have been made to him with regard to the Imperial College of Tropical Agriculture; and whether he can state what are the intentions of the Government with regard to the college?
    Mr. AMERY: Representations have been made to me with regard to the Imperial College of Tropical Agriculture and are receiving the serious consideration of His Majesty's Government; but I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any statement as to the intentions of the Government in the matter.
    Mr. RAMSDEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a very large sum of money is required for this valuable institution before it can really do the work that is necessary, particularly for a hostel, and there is no accommodation at present for the students?
    Mr. AMERY: I am fully aware both of the great importance of the work and of the amount of money still required to make that work possible.

  KENYA.

    EDUCATION (COST).
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the average amount spent per head upon the education of white and African children, respectively, in Kenya Colony?
    Mr. AMERY: The average amount per head spent by the Government of Kenya in 1924 on European, Indian and native; and Arab education, respectively, is shown in the following table:

    —

    No. of Pupils.

    Expenditure.

    Cost per head.

    £

    £

    s.

    d.

    European

    554

    23,107

    41

    14

    2

    Indian

    1,475

    11,768

    7

    19

    7

    Native and Arab

    22,269

    31,744

    1

    11

    2

    The expenditure on native and Arab education shown in this table includes the education grants by Government to the mission societies, but does not include the expenditure of the mission societies themselves on education.
    Mr. THURTLE: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that there is any justification for the Government spending six times as much on the education of a white child as upon the education of an African child?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question cannot be argued at Question Time. It should be dealt with on the Estimates.
    Mr. THURTLE: My question was whether the Colonial Secretary considered that there was any justification for the Government spending six times as much on the education of a white child as on the education of an African child, and may I have an answer to that question?
    Mr. SPEAKER: It would be necessary to bring forward an argument or justification, if justification there be, and that cannot be done at Question Time.
    Colonel WEDWGOOD: May I ask what proportion of the grant for native education is given to the missionaries and what proportion is for the schools?
    Mr. AMERY: I should be glad to answer that question if the right hon. Gentleman would give me notice.

    RAILWAY CONSTRUCTION (NATIVE LABOUR).
    Mr. SNELLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any further quota of the 4,000 conscripted labourers in Kenya Colony has yet been called out; and, if so, what is the total to date recruited by forcible measures since the permission of the Government to conscript labour for railway construction?
    Mr. AMERY: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The total number recruited was 3,094. It was decided in July that there should be no further recruiting, and all the men had returned to their homes before the 13th of August.
    Mr. SNELL: Is there any voluntary labour doing this work?
    Mr. AMERY: Yes, Sir. It was only because there was not enough voluntary labour forthcoming for this urgent work that we took steps to conscript labour.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Can the right hon. Gentleman state the number of hours these conscripted labourers work and the rate of pay they receive?
    Mr. AMERY: I think there is another question on the Order Paper on the rate of pay, and I will inquire as to the question of hours if the hon. Member will put down a question.
    Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what is the difference between conscription and slavery?
    Mr. SNELLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the rate of pay to the conscripted labourers in Kenya Colony for railway construction; and how this compares with the market rate of wages?
    Mr. AMERY: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 4th August to the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme and to Cmd. Paper 2464. The conditions laid down for the employment of compulsory labour provide that the wages should not be less than those of voluntary labourers by more than 2s. a month.

    SOLDIER SETTLERS.
    Mr. SNELLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of settlers now occupying the lands which were granted to them under the original Soldier-Settlers' Scheme in Kenya Colony?
    Mr. AMERY: According to the latest figures available, approximately 400 farms are actually being worked, and in most cases occupied by the original allottees.

    YAWS.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the total number of cases of yaws in Kenya Colony last year; and how many of these received adequate medical treatment?
    Mr. AMERY: 29,402 cases of yaws were treated at Government hospitals and dispensaries in Kenya during the year 1924; and, in addition, 16,125 cases were treated by Government medical officers while on tour in their districts either at out-dispensaries or otherwise. I fear it is impossible to estimate the number of cases which did not come to the notice of medical officers.
    Mr. SANDEMAN: What are yaws?
    Mr. AMERY: If the hon. Member will write to me. I shall be very glad to give him the medical definition.
    Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE: Is there any possibility of the Research Institute concerning itself with the investigation and research in regard to this disease?
    Mr. AMERY: The Amani Institute is not for the purpose of investigating human diseases but for plants and agriculture. I am certainly very anxious to promote research into health questions as well.

    MEDICAL SERVICE.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of qualified medical men in the public service and in private practice in Kenya Colony?
    Mr. AMERY: According to a return published on the 21st January last, there were 76 registered medical practitioners resident in Kenya of whom 32 were European Government medical officers.

    KING FEISAL.
    Mr. N. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether be can state the total sum which has been paid to date to King Feisal for personal and diplomatic purposes by this country?
    Mr. AMERY: No payment has been made to King Feisal by this country for diplomatic or personal purposes since he became King of Iraq.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Has any payment of any kind been made to King Feisal since he became King of Iraq?
    Mr. AMERY: No, Sir.

    EAST AFRICA (TRANSPORT LOAN).
    Lieut.-Colonel McDONNELLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what proportion of the loan of £10,000,000 to be spent on East African transport has been assigned to research?
    Mr. AMERY: No decision has yet been arrived at as to the precise allocation of the funds which will be provided by the proposed loan.
    Mr. SANDEMANasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether legislation will be proposed during the present. Session for carrying into effect the recent Cabinet decision to accept the recommendation of the East Africa Commission in regard to a transport loan for £10,000,000?
    Mr. AMERY: Legislation will be introduced as early as possible in the coming Session to give effect to the Cabinet decision to guarantee loans up to £10,000,000 for developing transport facilities in East Africa.
    Mr. THOMAS: Prior to the introduction of the Bill or discussion will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to give the details in advance so that we may know what we are discussing?
    Mr. AMERY: I will endeavour to see that the Schedules of the Bill are prepared in advance, and we will give all the information we can.

    CYPRUS (LIEUT.-COLONEL A. C. TOMPKINS).
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the case of Lieut.-Colonel A. C. Tompkins, who was recently employed in the Colonial administration in Cyprus; whether he is aware that Colonel

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    Tompkins has been retired after more than 42 years' public service without any pension; whether a petition from Colonel Tompkins to His Majesty the King has been received at the Colonial Office in which complaint is made as to his treatment while in the public service; and what action has been taken in the matter?
    Mr. AMERY: Lieut.-Colonel Tompkins's service was not entirely under the Crown and was for the most part in non-pensionable posts. His service under the Colonial Office amounted in the aggregate to about 6½ years only and the second and third periods of that service were separated by an interval of 27 years. The laws of the colonies concerned do not admit of the grant of a pension in such a case. A petition from Colonel Tompkins to His Majesty was received in November, 1923, asking for an extension of the period of his service in Cyprus or for transfer to another colony; but my predecessor was unable to advise His Majesty to accede to his prayer.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how Lieut.-Colonel Tompkins can get all the serious charges he makes in that petition investigated, and why no investigation has been allowed?
    Mr. AMERY: I do not think it is a question of charges, but if my hon. Friend would like to raise this question as a separate question I will endeavour to give him an answer.

  NYASALAND.

    TOBACCO INDUSTRY.
    Mr. J. S. ALLENasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the growing importance of the tobacco crop in Nyasaland; whether he is aware that the development of that country is held up for want of a bridge over the Zambesi river; and what steps the Government proposes to take to enable this country to develop the tobacco industry as an imperial asset?
    Mr. AMERY: The improvement of the communications of the Nyasaland Protectorate with the outside world, a question fully discussed in the report of the East Africa Commission, is
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    engaging the attention of the Government. In the meantime provision has been made for the appointment of an expert tobacco inspector, a step strongly recommended by the unofficial members of the Legislative Council.

    LAND (FREEHOLD TITLES).
    Mr. HAYESasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the proceedings of a conference held at Tukuyu last month, presided over by Lord Delamere; whether he is aware that this conference passed a resolution urging that freehold titles to land in Nyasaland should be substituted for the present system of leasehold titles; and whether he is prepared to make it clear to the settlers of East Africa that His Majesty's Government is not prepared to agree to any change in the existing procedure?
    Mr. AMERY: I have not yet received a copy of the resolutions of the Conference. The whole question of land titles in Nyasaland is under consideration.

    JAMAICA (SHIPPING).
    Colonel WOODCOCKasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the work which is being carried out by a committee of the legislature of Jamaica to increase shipping communication with England, and the better marketing of its fruits and other products; and if he can hold out any prospects of assisting a subsidised shipping line between the island and this country?
    Mr. AMERY: The reply to the first part of this question is in the affirmative, and to the second part that I shall always be prepared to give very careful consideration to any recommendations which I may receive on the subject.
    Colonel WOODCOCK: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the greater part of the shipping at Jamaica is now in the hands of the Americans, and that the trade of Jamaica is also falling into their hands and is being financed by them?
    Mr. N. MACLEAN: May we take it that the reason why this trade has fallen into the hands of American shipping lines is because the British shipping lines have shown a lack of initiative and private enterprise?
    Mr. AMERY: The shipping is in the hands of Messrs. Elders and Fyffes, who are a registered British shipping line.

    PORTUGUESE EAST AFRICA (NATIVE MIGRATION).
    Captain LODERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information regarding the migration of natives from Portuguese East Africa into adjacent British territories?
    Mr. AMERY: Natives of Portuguese East Africa have been migrating into the Nyasaland Protectorate in considerable numbers for many years. At the census taken in Nyasaland in 1921 the number of Anguru, a tribe inhabiting Portuguese East Africa, was computed at 108,204. and it was supposed that there were many more immigrant Anguru who had been adopted into other tribes in the Protectorate. There is also some migration of natives from Portuguese East Africa into the Tanganyika territory, and on a small scale into Northern Rhodesia, but statistics are not available.

    KENYA AND UGANDA (RAILWAY DEVELOPMENT).
    Sir SYDNEY HENNasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies which are the railways in Kenya and Uganda that are being constructed with the loan for £3,500,000 authorised by Parliament in March, 1924; what is the present state of construction of those railways; and whether their cost will be wholly covered by the loan?
    Mr. AMERY: The new railways to be constructed under this loan are the following:

    Turbo-Malaba River (about 75 miles) in Kenya.

    Mbulamuti-Malaba River (about 110 miles) in Uganda.

    Tororo-Mbale (say 30 miles) in Uganda.

    North Kavirondo Branch (say 35 miles) in Kenya.

    The first two are now under construction. It was intended to complete the first by December, 1925, and the second by December, 1926. I have no
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    information showing that these expectations will not be realised, but, owing to the late completion of the Uasin Gishu Railway, of which the first in a continuation, and difficulties in transporting construction material up the main line, some delay may occur. The construction of the other two lines will follow. I have no reason to believe that the cost of these lines will exceed the amount provided for new construction under the loan.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask whether any steps have been taken, or are necessary, to recover for the community the increase in land values alongside these railways?
    Mr. AMERY: No special steps have been taken.

    ZAMBESI BRIDGE.
    Sir S. HENNasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the transport loan for £10,000,000 recommended by the East Africa Commission and approved by the Cabinet, will include provision for the construction of the Zambesi bridge?
    Mr. AMERY: The importance of the Zambesi bridge is fully recognised, but my hon. Friend will realise the difficulties in the way of utilising loans raised for transport development in British Dependencies for the construction of a bridge in Portuguese territory, the concession of which has been granted by the Portuguese Government to a private company.

    COLONIAL OFFICE.
    Lieut.-Colonel ANGUS McDONNELLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the rapid growth of trade with the Crown Colonies and the importance of increasing those Imperial markets, the Government intend to set up any commission or committee to inquire as to the desirability of complete re-organisation of the Colonial Office?
    Mr. AMERY: I am, of course, entirely in sympathy with the object that my hon. and gallant Friend has in view, but I doubt whether it would be materially assisted by an inquiry of the kind suggested. One of the objects of the recent separation of the Dominions Office from the Colonial Office was to enable the

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    latter to deal more effectively with the increasing magnitude and importance of the tasks before it.

    CROWN AGENTS.
    Lieut.-Colonel A. McDONNELLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the recent, division of the Colonial Office into the Dominion Office and Colonial Office, the Government propose to set up any inquiry into the functions of the Crown Agents, as there has been no official definition of the Crown Agent's duties since 1905?
    Mr. AMERY: I am not aware of any sufficient reason for the inquiry suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend. If he has any suggestions to make for the amendment of the existing definition of the duties of the Crown Agents, I shall be glad to give them careful consideration.

  GOLD COAST.

    TAKORADI HARBOUE.
    Mr. ROY WILSONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Takoradi harbour will be completed within the time and at the cost stipulated in the estimate given in 1924 by the engineer now in charge of the work; and, if not, what revised estimate has been submitted?
    Mr. AMERY: The estimate has had to be revised in the light of fuller information as to local conditions, and the estimated total expenditure is now £3,066,000 and the contract date for completion! 31st December, 1928.

    GOLD COAST LOAN (ISSUE PRICE).
    Mr. ROY WILSONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies who was responsible for fixing the price of issue of the recent Gold Coast loan; and, in view of the damage done to the Colony by the failure of the public to subscribe more than 2½ per cent. of the issue by reason of its unattractive terms, what steps the Government propose to take to ensure that future Crown Colony loans are issued on terms which will prove reasonably attractive to investors?
    Mr. AMERY: The price was fixed in accordance with the usual practice by the Crown Agents, after consultation with their City advisers and with my assent. It is not always possible to judge accurately beforehand what will attract the investing public, but naturally every effort will be made to ensure success in this respect.
    Mr. WILSON: Is it not a fact that the last West African loan that was issued met exactly the same fate as this, and will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that in future these West African loans are properly floated?
    Mr. AMERY: Every care will be taken to make sure that the loans are floated successfully.
    Sir F. HALL: If judicious inquiries had been made in the City, is not the right hon. Gentleman of opinion that it would have been known full well that a loan coming out at 94 on a 4½ per cent. basis must have been a non-success? No one, of course, could have contemplated such drastic results.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Are the underwriters in any way compelled to take up these loans?
    Mr. AMERY: No, I presume they thought the public would respond.
    Sir F. WISE: Who are the advisers on Crown loans?

    SUBMARINES (ABOLITION).
    Colonel DAYasked the Prime Minister if he will, following the regrettable loss of life by the sinking of the Submarine Ml, make representations to the countries concerned suggesting the revival. of the proposal made at the Washington Conference for their abolition?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave on Wednesday last in reply to questions on this subject.
    Colonel DAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what would be the attitude of other Governments if these representations were made?

    EMPIRE PRODUCE (MARKETING).
    Mr. HURDasked the Prime Minister in what form, and when, the House will

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    be asked to grant £1,000,000 for the encouragement of the sale of Empire produce in this country; whether, for the purposes of this grant, Great Britain will be regarded as part of the British Empire; and, if not, whether an equivalent and simultaneous grant will be made to encourage the sale of British Home produce?
    Major STEELasked the Prime Minister when he will make a statement as to what action the Government proposes to take in order to give effect to the recommendations contained in the first Report of the Imperial Economic Committee?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The whole matter is at present under the consideration of His Majesty's Government, and it is hoped to make a statement later.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Having regard to the fact that an important Committee has been sitting for some months, can we be assured that we shall get the decision of the Government before Christmas?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I think there are points raised in these questions that were not dealt with when the Committee to which the hon. Member alludes was set up. I cannot say at this moment when we shall have further information to give.

    BRICKS (PUBLIC BUILDINGS).
    Mr. KELLYasked the Prime Minister whether he has received a resolution from the National Building and Engineering Brick Federation protesting against the embargo by the Ministry of Health on the use of bricks, in view of the heavy capital expenditure made by brickmakers at the direct request of the Government during the last few years, with the object of materially increasing output; whether the resolution has received his consideration; and, if so. with what result?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): I have been asked to reply. A communication has been received from the Federation protesting against an embargo on the use of bricks on public buildings. In order to permit of the maximum amount of building work
    904
    being undertaken during the present shortage of bricklayers, my right hon. Friend is encouraging local authorities where there is a shortage of bricklayers and substitution of other methods of construction is possible, to adopt alternative methods of construction for public buildings. My right hon. Friend is afraid that, in present circumstances, it will not be possible to vary this procedure.
    Mr. W. THORNE: In face of that statement, has the hon. Gentleman considered the question of the cost of materials?
    Sir K. WOOD: Yes, Sir; obviously, that consideration has to be taken into account. While bricklayers are scarce and housing is urgent, we are asking local authorities to consider other methods of construction.
    Mr. THORNE: How can the hon. Gentleman state, as a fact, that there is a shortage of bricklayers, when there is any number of bricklayers registered at the various Exchanges? It is no use the hon. Gentleman shaking his head; it is true.

    LONDON BOOK PUBLISHING TRADE DISPUTE.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that a large number of newsvendors in London and the provinces have for some weeks been prevented from obtaining supplies of papers and periodicals, by which they earn their living, owing to the action of the printers' trades union in sympathy with a strike in the book trade with which the newsvendors have no concern whatever; whether he is aware that the printers' trades union has forbidden the proprietors of all newspapers throughout the country to supply any newsvendors who previously obtained papers or periodicals through the wholesale newsagents, Messrs. Simpkin, Marshall, and Company; and whether he proposes to take action, by legislation or otherwise, to bring this state of affairs to an end?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): I have been asked to reply. I understand that an arrangement has now been made under which the news-

    905
    agents concerned will receive the supplies of papers and periodicals which they require.
    Sir W. DAVISON: On the facts indicated in the question, may I ask the Prime Minister whether the Government do not intend to take any action to protect these unfortunate men from having their businesses ruined at the caprice of a union with which they have no concern? As this is a very serious matter for my constituents, one or two of whom have been nearly ruined, may I ask the Prime Minister to let me have a reply?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have nothing further to add to the reply that has been given.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all the newspapers this morning have notices posted up that the strike is settled?

    SHALE INDUSTRY DISPUTE, SCOTLAND.
    Mr. HARDIEasked the Prime Minister whether the accountant's statement in relation to the shale workers' dispute in Scotland contains figures showing the watered capital in the business?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Burton Chadwick): I have been asked to reply. The Report will be published shortly, and I would ask the hon. Member to defer any questions he may have regarding its contents until he has had an opportunity of reading it.
    Mr. HARDIE: Is the Prime Minister, in view of the serious situation in the Scottish shale industry, prepared to consider the holding of a public inquiry, so that the whole matter may be investigated? May I press for an answer, seeing that the subject is of importance? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must please resume his seat when I rise. This is a new matter, which should be given to the Prime Minister on the Paper.

    CHINA (EXTRA-TERRITORIALITY COMMISSION).
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Prime Minister whether it has been decided that a conference of representatives from various Governments will be held at Peking on 18th December to inquire into and discuss the present practice of extraterritorial jurisdiction in China; and whether any representative from China will be among those taking part in the conference?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Austen Chamberlain): The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Chinese Government will appoint a representative to sit as a member of the Extra-Territoriality Commission, in accordance with the Resolution of the Washington Conference.
    Lieut.-Colonel J. WARD: Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House which of the Chinese Governments will be represented?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: There is only one Chinese Government.

  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT.

    PART I (EXPIRATION).
    Mr. MACKENZIE LIVINGSTONEasked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to provide legislation for the continuance of Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921, which expires on the 18th August, 1926, either in its present or in some revised form?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am not at present in a position to make any statement on this matter.

    DUTIES (DATE OF IMPOSITION).
    Captain CROOKSHANKasked the Prime Minister if, in order to prevent dumping, he will introduce legislation for the automatic imposition of a duty on any goods which form the subject of inquiry by a Commission set up under the Safeguarding of Industries procedure, such duty to be levied from the date of the public announcement that such an inquiry is to be held, with the proviso that if the Committee's Report is adverse the temporary duty would be refunded?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have noted my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion, and I would refer him to the reply which I gave on Wednesday last in answer to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise).
    Colonel DAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Post Office now levy 6d. on all parcels coming in here for examination?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.

    SUPERPHOSPHATE.
    Mr. W. HIRSTasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government has yet come to any decision regarding the application of the Safeguarding of Industries Act to the superphosphate industry, in view of the fact that the Committee inquiring into the conditions of this industry reported on 24th June, 1925?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: As was stated by the President of the Board of Trade, in reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith on the 28th July last, the Government, in view of the findings of the Committee, do not propose to take any further action in this case.

    DISARMAMENT CONFERENCE.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister whether he has further considered the possibility of a new Disarmament Conference; whether he has had any communications with the leaders of other Governments on this subject; and, in particular, whether he contemplates the possibility of another conference on naval armaments?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the answer given on the 18th November to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton East (Mr. G. Thorne).
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask, arising out of that, if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that this matter was being considered when first he took office, and now, as nearly a year has passed, can he not report any progress?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not see how that can possibly arise out of the answer
    908
    to which I have referred the hon. and gallant Gentleman, as to which, I think, he is not informed.

    EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Prime Minister when the Government intends taking the Second Reading of the Education (Scotland) Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I hope that an early opportunity will be found for the Second Reading of this Bill, but I cannot make any definite statement at the moment.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Since, as the right hon. Gentleman may be aware, this is practically an agreed-upon Measure, can he not bring it forward on an early day? It would have gone through last week but for the action of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury and of the Home Secretary as well.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): No!
    The PRIME MINISTER: My experience is that few Bills need more discussion than agreed Bills.
    Mr. MACLEAN: As this is a matter affecting Scotland, and Scottish Members were deprived of the opportunity of getting it passed last Tuesday, will the right hon. Gentleman introduce it this week, and have it passed this week?
    The PRIME MINISTER: It all depends on how the business progresses.

    SEDITION LAW.
    Mr. BASIL PETOasked the Prime Minister whether he intends to introduce during the present Session of Parliament the Bill for the Prevention of Seditious and Blasphemous Teaching which passed the House of Lords in the Session of 1924.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have been asked to reply. The question whether any amendment of the law in regard to sedition is desirable is under consideration. I am not in a position to make any statement at present.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to a publication entitled "The Grammar of Anarchy," containing speeches by such well-known sedition-mongers as himself, Lord Carson, and other noted men?

    NAVAL CONSTRUCTION (GREAT BRITAIN AND JAPAN).
    Mr. PILCHERasked the Prime Minister whether the Government possesses, and can supply this House with, detailed and authoritative information as to the extent of the proposed reductions in the Japanese naval estimates; whether the Japanese programme in the largest class of cruisers is thereby affected; and whether, if so, it holds out any hope, consistently with the due maintenance of British maritime interests, or economies in the British Government's naval programme?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Bridgeman): I have been asked to reply. The only authoritative information received in the Admiralty as to the Japanese naval estimates is that they show an increase from 227 million yen voted in 1925–1926 to 239 million yen proposed for 1926–1927. With regard to the last part of the question, no reduction in the British programme of new construction is contemplated.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Has the right hon. Gentleman not seen a Reuter telegram to the effect that the Japanese Diet has postponed the whole naval programme for 12 months?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I have seen reports in the papers, but I am asked to give all the information I have authoritatively, and I have given it.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: How is it that a very important matter like this has not been reported, in view of the fact that we have a Naval Attache at Tokio?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Of course, it has been reported to the Admiralty.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: If it has been reported to the Admiralty, is it a fact that the programme has been postponed for a year?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I have said I cannot give any authoritative statement, except what I have given.

    NIGERIA (NATIVES, EXECUTIONS).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many natives of Nigeria were tried, sentenced to death, and executed without being allowed the assistance of counsel in the courts during the year 1924?
    Mr. AMERY: The number of persons executed in 1924 after trial in the provincial and native courts was 72.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: I asked whether the right hon. Gentleman would state the number of persons executed without having had the assistance of Counsel. That is the question on the Paper.
    Mr. AMERY: I think there is a full answer.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does that mean that none of these people had the assistance of counsel at all?
    Mr. AMERY: I am certain they were tried fairly.

    SYRIA AND PALESTINE.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the peace of the mandated territory of Palestine has been disturbed in any way by the risings in Syria; and whether any of His Majesty's forces or gendarmerie have taken any part in the fighting on or near the frontier of the two mandated areas?
    Mr. AMERY: The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENIN: Has the right hon. Gentleman given any undertakings to M. de Jouvenel in reference to co-operative action, and if so, do they imply any military commitments?
    Mr. AMERY: I must have notice of that question.

    IRISH BOUNDARY COMMISSION.
    Mr. HARMSWORTHasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, before any action is taken upon the forthcoming Report of the Irish Boundary Commission, this House will be given an opportunity of discussing it?
    Mr. AMERY: In view of the situation created by the resignation from the Boundary Commission of the representative of the Irish Free State it is not possible for me to say at the present stage what course will be adopted.
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: Does the resignation of a member from the Boundary Commission render any report it may give inoperative except in an advisory capacity?
    Mr. SPEAKER: There is another question at the end on the same subject.
    Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALDasked the Prime Minister whether he had any communication to make to the House on the present situation of affairs with reference to the Irish Boundary and Boundary Commission?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have nothing to say, except that I have learned in the last 10 minutes that the Boundary Commission themselves intend to issue a statement forthwith. I will keep in touch with the right hon. Gentleman as to that.
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: May I have an answer to the question I asked earlier in the afternoon, whether in this case of the resignation from the Boundary Commission, the Report that is forthcoming becomes inoperative because of the resignation of a Commissioner, and can only be held to be of an advisory capacity?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot make any statement on that subject at present.

    S.S. "EDITH CAVELL" (WRONGFUL DETENTION).
    Mr. B. PETOasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether any settlement has been arrived at of the claims for compensation' for wrongful detention at St. Laurent of the captain, first officer, and engineer of the British steamer "Edith Cavell"?
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): His Majesty's Ambassador at Paris presented a request to the French Government on 29th August for a grant to these men. He has now
    912
    been informed that in view of the fact that French Colonies enjoy financial autonomy the request had been referred to the Governor of French Guiana, who alone was competent to decide what action should be taken in the matter.

  BRITISH EMPIRE EXHIBITION.

    PUBLIC ATTENDANCES (1924 AND 1925).
    Mr. HARMSWORTHasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he will give comparative figures showing the number of persons who attended the British Empire Exhibition last year and this year?
    Mr. SAMUEL: I am informed by the British Empire Exhibition authorities that the total number of persons who paid for admission to the Exhibition in 1924 was 15,080,490 and that the corresponding figure for this year was 7,589,704.
    Colonel DAY: How much will the loss be this year?

    FINAL ACCOUNTS.
    Mr. HARMSWORTHasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department when the accounts of the British Empire Exhibition will be issued; and whether, having regard to the guarantee given by His Majesty's Government having to be met. an opportunity will be given to this House to discuss the accounts?
    Mr. SAMUEL: I am informed by the liquidators of the British Empire Exhibition that the final accounts cannot be ready for a considerable time, but I hope shortly to be able to give the House approximate figures up to the 31st October. The matter can be discussed when the House is asked to give effect to the Government guarantee.
    Sir F. HALL: Will all the guarantors be treated on the same basis?
    Mr. SAMUEL: All private guarantors, of course, will be treated on the same basis.
    Sir F. HALL: All of them?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Yes.

  AGRICULTURE.

    PROFIT-SHARING FARMS.
    Brig.-General BROOKEasked the Minister of Agriculture which, if any, of the farm settlements started under the Land Settlement Act of 1919 is being run at a profit, and the expenditure to date which has been incurred in this direction by the State?
    Major Sir HARRY BARNSTON (Controller of the Household): I have been asked to reply. My hon. and gallant Friend's question presumably refers to the profit-sharing farms established by the Ministry under the Small Holdings (Colonies) Acts, 1916 and 1918. Out of six properties acquired for this purpose, four are no longer retained by the Ministry; of the remaining two, one is at Amesbury, Wiltshire, and the other at Patrington, East Yorkshire. The Ames-bury farm is being worked without loss, the average return obtained over the six years that it has been in operation being about 487 per cent. per annum on the farming capital originally invested in the undertaking. For further particulars of the results on these two farms reference should be made to the volume of "Trading Accounts and Balance Sheets, 1923–24," where the facts relating to each are fully set out.

    FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
    Mr. HURDasked the Minister of Agriculture (1) what progress is being made in scientific research into the causes of foot-and-mouth disease; and whether he is considering proposals from the National Farmers' Union or any other representative agricultural body for the development of research methods;
    (2) what steps have been taken by the veterinary staff of the Ministry to test the inoculation and other suggestions for the cure of foot-and-mouth disease, and with what results?
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Minister of Agriculture whether any experiments are taking place, or are about to take place, in endeavouring to cure animals affected by foot-and-mouth disease; and, if so, where these experiments are being carried out?
    Sir H. BARNSTON: I have been asked to reply. A Committee was appointed in April, 1924, to initiate, direct and conduct
    914
    investigations into foot-and-mouth disease, either in this country or elsewhere. The first Progress Report of this Committee was recently published by His Majesty's Stationery Office. It contains a full account of the Committee's investigations. Such inoculation methods as are at present available for the cure and prevention of foot-and-mouth disease have been tested out in Continental countries on a large scale, but none the less the disease is widespread. The Scientific Committee of Investigation, however, is attempting to obtain, amongst other things, a safe and effective method of preventive inoculation. Scientific work with this object is being carried out at a specially constructed cattle station at Pirbright. No proposals as to possible lines of investigation have been received from the Natonal Farmers' Union or any other representative agricultural body.
    Major GLYNasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the large number of sheep, cattle, etc., that are now conveyed from and to markets by motor-lorries, with double-deck trailers attached in some cases, and that no Regulations appear to exist for their cleansing in a manner similar to that insisted upon by the Board of Agriculture in the case of cattle-trucks and sheep-vans on the railways; and whether, in view of the increase of foot-and-mouth disease, he will take immediate steps to exercise some form of control over these road vehicles?
    Sir H. BARNSTON: I have been asked to reply. My hon. and gallant Friend is under a misapprehension in thinking that no Regulations exist for the cleansing of motor lorries and other road vehicles used for the carriage of cattle, sheep, etc. In every area which is declared to be a foot-and-mouth disease infected area the cleansing and disinfection of such vehicles is required by the Ministry's Orders after each occasion on which they are used for animals and before any other animal or fodder, litter or anything intended to be used for animals is placed therein. The Ministry at present has under consideration the extension of these requirements to all such vehicles engaged in the carriage of animals throughout Great Britain.
    Captain WALTER SHAWasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will undertake to close to the public all paths

    915
    through fields within a radius of 10 miles of an infected place in order thereby to lessen the danger of the spreading of the foot-and-mouth disease?
    Sir H. BARNSTON: The present practice is to close all footpaths running through infected places and also through other fields in the vicinity. Usually footpaths are closed for about a mile around an infected place, but the circumstances, including local conditions as regards the paths and roads are considered in each case. Applications are often received from other farmers in the neighbourhood for posters notifying the closing of their footpaths and these posters are given, although the paths to be closed may be outside the normal radius dealt with compulsorily. The Ministry thinks that these measures are sufficient to control the spread of disease so far as the use of public footpaths is concerned, and it does not appear necesary to extend them to such a wide radius as that suggested.
    Captain SHAW: Is the hon. Member aware that there is great nervousness locally among the farmers because many miles round these footpaths are used very much by the public, who take dogs with them which run about and certainly deposit the germs of this disease?

    BEET-SUGAR COMPANIES.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will state, in the balance sheets of certain beet-sugar corporations, published as White Paper No. 163 on 5th August, 1925, what is the nature of the contingent liability listed in the liabilities of Home-Grown Sugar, Ltd., and why this item of contingent liability is included in the general liabilities while liability to the Minister of Agriculture is only noted as being contingent liability; what amount of Government subsidy on production was included in the profit-and-loss account of each of the three companies whose balance sheets are published; and, in the cases of Home-Grown Sugar, Ltd., and the English Beet-Sugar Corporation, Ltd., whether the valuation of stocks is based upon market price or cost price?
    Sir H. BARNSTON: As the reply is rather long, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:

    (1) The contingent liability included in the liabilities of Home Grown Sugar, Ltd., is an unpaid account for goods purchased and is therefore a charge against the company's assets. It is described as a contingent liability as its payment is contingent upon the company failing to establish a counter-claim for an amount which would wholly or in part cancel the obligation.

    (2) The liability to the Government described as "contingent" in a note to the balance sheet, but not included among the liabilities is one which is payable only out of future profits if and when earned. It is, therefore, not a charge against the present assets of the company.

    (3) It is the custom of the beet-sugar companies to value all their stocks at cost, unless the actual value on the date of the balance sheet is lower, in which case the lower figure is taken.

    (4) The Act does not provide for the laying before Parliament of the particulars of the statement of profit and loss of the beet-sugar companies, but the following is the gross subsidy included by these companies in respect of sugar and molasses produced last season: —

    £

    s.

    d.

    Kelham factory

    …

    …

    134,471

    12

    11

    Cantley factory

    …

    …

    292,086

    8

    2

    Colwick factory

    …

    …

    77,623

    0

    4

  EX-SERVICE MEN.

    LAND SETTLEMENT.
    Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Minister of Agriculture how many ex-service men have been provided with small holdings by the county councils and the councils of county boroughs since the Armistice; what has been the total amount of rent paid and what is the deficiency; how many smallholders have failed altogether and gone out of business; what has been the amount of capital cost of the scheme, including money paid for the land, annual loan charges, and cost of administration: and what is the total loss to the State, if any, of this experiment in small holdings, and the average loss per small holding?
    Sir H. BARNSTON: The information asked for by my hon. Friend is given in

    917
    detail in the recently-issued Report on Land Settlement in England and Wales, 1919 to 1924, and in as much as it would be difficult to set it out, with all the necessary explanations and qualifications, within the compass of a reply to his question, I venture to refer my hon. Friend to pages 36 to 45 of the Report, dealing with the financial aspects of the Land Settlement Scheme, and to the statistical table on page 139, showing the number of ex-service men settled. The number of men who have given up their holdings owing to failure is estimated not to exceed 10 or 12 per cent.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I have read all that matter myself and I do not want to be told it in answer to my question? Is he able to give me an answer?
    Sir H. BARNSTON: I think my hon. Friend had better read it.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, owing to the very heavy loss to the State, the greater part of this money is entirely thrown away? Would it not be better to devote it to migration purposes, instead of to a scheme of this kind?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman is making a speech.

    ADMIRALTY HYDROGRAPHIC DRAUGHTSMEN.
    Captain FRASERasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if any ex-service men at present employed as hydrographic draughtsmen in the Admiralty who may fail to pass the forthcoming examination for appointment to a permanent post on the established list will be transferred to the special permanent but non-pensioned class, initiated for the benefit of ex-service civil servants?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Mr. J. C. C. Davidson): The regulations for the forthcoming qualifying examination for appointment to established posts as draughtsmen in the hydrographic department of the Admiralty are in accord with the recommendations of the Lytton and Southborough Committee on the employment of ex-service men in the Civil Service. As my hon. Friend will see from the memorandum dated the 12th January, 1925, on action to be taken in connection
    918
    with the Southborough Report, of which memorandum I am sending him a copy, it is not proposed to institute a special permanent non-pensionable class of technical officers in cases where it is possible, as In the hydrographic department drawing office, to fix the permanent technical complement forthwith.
    Captain FRASER: Does not that mean that if these men have failed to obtain permanent positions, they will be dismissed, and, if so, may not that be regarded as a breach of the pledge given by the Government to these men?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: I will consider that, but I do not think it is so.
    Major CRAWFURD: Have there been any complaints as to the work done by these men during the time of their employment?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: I should require notice of that Question.

    HUDSON MEMORIAL, HYDE PARK.
    Mr. B. PETOasked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether his attention has been called to the protest against the retention in Hyde Park of the Epstein panel of the Hudson memorial, signed by the president of the Royal Academy and many other distinguished artists and art lovers; and whether he intends to order its removal?
    Sir H. CRAIKasked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the First Commissioner is prepared to give the names of those who composed the committee of taste upon whose recommendation the First Commissioner, then in office, gave accommodation to the piece of sculpture which has given rise to controversy in connection with its position in the Bird Sanctuary in Hyde Park.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he has now satisfied himself as to the general demand from all classes of the public for the removal of the Epstein sculpture from the Hudson Memorial Bird Sanctuary in Hyde Park: whether he is aware that

    919
    the subscribers to the Hudson Memorial were never consulted with regard to the Epstein panel and are indignant that their subscriptions should have been used for the erection of this piece of sculpture as a memorial to Hudson; and what action the Office of Works propose to take to secure the removal of the panel from its present position?
    Mr. GODFREY LOCKER-LAMPSON: The First Commissioner is quite prepared to give the names of the committee on whose advice the First Commissioner of the day accepted the panel. The names of this committee, which comprised persons of distinction in the world of art, have already, I believe, appeared in the Press. The design was submitted to the Office of Works by the Hudson Memorial Committee which it was assumed represented the views of the subscribers to the memorial. The First Commissioner's attention has been drawn to the recent protest against the retention in Hyde Park of the panel, and also to a strongly supported manifesto in favour of its retention. My right hon. Friend is not satisfied that there is a general desire for the removal of the panel.
    Mr. PETO: Is the hon. Member aware that the Report of the Sites Committee, to which he refers, was not unanimous, and is he prepared to give the opinions of eminent members of the Committee professional sculptors, on that Report, which were most unfavourable to the design submitted? Is he aware that a great many of the subscribers to the Hudson Memorial are most dissatisfied with the piece of sculpture in question, and are indignant that their money should be used for that purpose, and that they were never informed that any sculpture was proposed, before they were asked to subscribe in the first instance?
    Sir H. CRAIK: Has the First Commissioner of Works given the members of the Committee any opportunity to give a revised opinion?
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the hon. Member aware that both Sir George Frampton and Sir Reginald Blomfield, the two expert members of the Committee, both expressed their strong disapproval of the monument in question?
    Mr. LOCKERLAMPSON: It is true that the Report was not unanimous, but I would remind my hon. Friends that there is a very acute division of opinion on this subject, and that if we removed this panel there would be a very strong agitation. The Office of Works went on the assumption that the subscribers to the memorial agreed to the design of the panel.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the hon. Member aware that not even a preliminary sketch was given to the Committee on behalf of the subscribers, but that Mr. Epstein, by a few people, was given carte blanche.
    Sir H. CRAIK: In view of the controversy that has arisen, will the First Commissioner consider the extreme desirability of refusing admission to any articles of this sort, and of keeping the parks for trees, grass and flowers?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I can assure my right hon. Friend that I agree that the greatest care ought to be taken as to what is placed in the parks.
    Sir MARTIN CONWAY: Does the hon. Member know of any committee dealing with any subject connected with art that has been unanimous at all?
    Mr. PETO: I desire to give notice that I will raise this question on the Adjournment of the House on Thursday.
    Colonel DAY: Has the Birmingham censor had anything to say about it?

  ROYAL NAVY.

    NEW ENTRANTS (PENSIONS).
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will give an undertaking that the recent reductions of pay to new entrants in the Royal Navy will not involve a reduction in their pensions?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: The question of reduction in the present rates of pension is under consideration but, in the event of reduced rates being adopted, the Admiralty does not propose that they should apply to persons entered before the date of their promulgation.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Do I understand the hon. Member to say that the

    921
    Admiralty has considered reducing the rates of pension?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: Yes.

    SOUTHERN DOCKYARDS (HIRED MEN).
    Mr. HARRISONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many hired men will be discharged from southern dockyards to make room for the transferred established men from Pembroke and Rosyth; and whether the hired men on discharge receive any gratuity or compensation?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: I regret that I am not yet in a position to give the figure asked for in the first part of the question; any hired men who have not less than seven years' calculable service, who may be discharged for the reason stated in the question, will be eligible for the award of gratuities under the Superannuation Acts.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Has the hon. Member considered the effect that this will have upon the local rates, and is he prepared to make any subvention to those rates?

    Loss OF SUBMARINE Ml.
    Major HARVEYasked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the statement, since denied by the Admiralty, published in the "Evening Standard" of 20th November to the effect that the cause of the sinking of the submarine M1 was the neglect of the crew to close a hatch, and, if in view of the distress which such a statement causes to the relatives of the deceased men, he will take steps to prevent the publication of such unfounded statements in the future?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: My attention has not previously been called officially to this matter. My hon. and gallant Friend knows that I have no control over the Press, as to what statements they shall or shall not publish.
    Colonel WOODCOCK: Is there any truth in the suggestion that the making of this statement is due to a non-official statement being made by an official of the Admiralty?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That question ought to be addressed to the Admiralty. The information which I have is that the statement was not issued by the Admiralty.
    Major HARVEY: Are we to understand that the statement was a pure invention on the part of the newspaper?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: So far as I am aware, there is no foundation for the statement at all.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the statement issued by the Admiralty this morning? Why has so long a delay occurred before the truth has been ascertained?

    SEVERN TIDAL POWER SCHEME.
    Colonel WOODCOCKasked the President of the Board of Trade if it is his intention to proceed further with the Severn Tidal Power Scheme inquiry, in view of the fact that the City of Bristol is proposing to spend about £1,000,000 in the erection of an electrical station in close proximity to the River Severn to serve Bristol and part of the surrounding district?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: The practicability of the Severn Barrage Power Scheme has been referred to the Committee of Civil Research, which has appointed a special sub-Committee to advise on the whole question. Any local electrical developments will no doubt be brought to the notice of the sub-Committee by the Departments immediately concerned.
    Colonel WOODCOCK: Does my hon. Friend propose to continue this inquiry on a work involving the expenditure of millions on an electrical power scheme which would compete with the scheme which the City of Bristol is now proposing to commence at an initial cost of one million pounds?
    Mr. W. BAKER: Is it not immediately necessary that a new power station should be erected to meet present-day requirements?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: The matter is before the special sub-Committee, and no doubt they will take all these matters into consideration.
    Colonel WOODCOCK: Are you going to waste money on further inquiry after Bristol has received permission to proceed, as the estimated cost of the inquiry was stated to be from £70,000 to £90,000?
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Was not this matter referred for consideration 18 months ago? Cannot the hon. Member now say what stage the inquiry has reached?

    BRITISH DYESTUFFS CORPORATION.
    Sir F. HALLasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government has surrendered its interest in the British Dyestuffs Corporation; if so, upon what terms; and what steps will be taken to ensure that this country shall not in future find itself handicapped, as was the case during the Great War, owing to its dependence upon foreign countries for the supply of aniline dyes?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): His Majesty's Government have indicated to the directors of the British Dyestuffs Corporation their willingness to dispose of their shares in the corporation for the sum of £600,000, and to terminate their existing rights of veto and control on the conditions that the corporation enters into an agreement that no more than 25 per cent. of its shares shall be held by foreigners, and that the corporation will in all matters of technical information and research keep in touch with the Government in such manner as the President of the Board of Trade for the time being may direct. These arrangements, if approved by the shareholders, will give the corporation the same freedom in the conduct of its undertaking as is enjoyed by the other dye-making companies in this country. The course taken is one which the Government believe, after full consideration, to be in the best interests not merely of the particular company, but of the dye-making industry in this
    924
    country as a whole. I may add, with regard to the last part of the question, that the Government have no intention of modifying the Dyestuffs (Import Regulation) Act.
    Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: Is this change going to take place without any opportunity being given to this House to express its views, and is this to be done without any papers explaining the whole-situation being communicated to the House?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I do not think that any undertaking was ever given by the Government, at any time, that we would not deal with the Government holding in this matter. Other companies were disposed of without previous discussion in this House, but of course if the right hon. Gentleman desires to discuss this matter on some future occasion he will have an appropriate opportunity for discussing any action which the Government may have taken.
    Mr. MacDONALD: May I ask what papers are we to receive, papers showing the whole of the transactions and the negotiations that have taken place between this company and the Government and the representations that have been made by the Government regarding foreign arrangements, that override British production?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I will consider with the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there are any papers which can be usefully laid, but the whole-transaction, as between the Government and the company has been completely and fully set out in the circular to the shareholders. I have stated exactly in my answer what the arrangement is.
    Sir F. HALL: Is there any truth to the suggestion that there was likely to be a German-British combination? Further, has the right hon. Gentleman taken into consideration the lessons learned during the War, and will the Government take steps to assure themselves in the event of a combination being made that German secrets are made known in this country?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: This company will be in exactly the same position as any other dyemaking company in this

    925
    country, and I am quite satisfied that it is in the best interests of dyemaking that this company should have complete freedom to carry on its business in the hands of competent men, as in the manner which seems best.
    Captain BENN: Is there anything to prevent a British company from interchanging secrets with a German combination, and, if there is not, what becomes of the whole purpose of the Act?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: There is nothing to prevent any company in this country carrying on the manufacture of dyes from interchanging information with any German or other manufacturers, and I should say in the interests of dye-makers in this country that we should get as much information as we possibly can. The whole object of the Dyes Act is to build up as. many dyemaking companies in this country on a successful basis as possible.
    Mr. ATTLEE: May we be assured that under any arrangements which will be made this company will manufacture in this country and will not be merely a selling company for a foreign firm?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am perfectly satisfied that the whole object of the company in continuing its operations is to continue them as a manufacturing concern. I can only say, as has been announced to-day, that the intention of the company in making these arrangements is to keep in touch with the Board of Trade and with the Government of the day in all these matters.
    Mr. MACLEAN: May I ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he considers that it is dealing fairly with this House, after we have been asked to vote £2,000,000 for the purpose of those shares, and we have given our consent to the purchase of those shares, that the decision of this House is to be set aside and is not to be taken into consideration, and are we to take it that, after assuming the responsibility of voting the money to
    926
    purchase these shares, the Government can sell them for £600,000 at their own sweet will without a Debate by Members of this House?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: It is a new idea that the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer are not responsible for the best conduct of affairs in matters of this kind.
    Mr. MACLEAN: May I ask your advice, Mr. Speaker, as to what steps Members of this House can take to prevent the sale of these shares until the House has had an opportunity of discussing this question?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot say at the present moment what the powers of the Government may be, but I consider that the best plan would be to ask the Leader of the House to give time to discuss the matter.
    Mr. MACLEAN: If a Motion were to be put down on the Paper in the name of the responsible Leader of the Opposition, and, say, the Leader of the Liberal party, would it have the effect, or would it be looked on as having the effect, of an injunction on the Government not to sell these shares until the matter had been debated in this House?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot answer for the Government, but I think that a Motion of that kind would necessarily claim the attention of the Leader of the House, and be considered. I do not know how far the transaction has gone—whether it has been completed, or whether there is any reservation or not.
    Mr. MacDONALD: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he is not aware from what has happened that we on this side of the House, with some knowledge of the preceding transactions, consider this as a very serious matter that ought to be reported to the House in conditions which will permit of discussion?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I will take notice of what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

QUEEN ALEXANDRA.
  LEADERS' TRIBUTES.

    VOTE OF CONDOLENCE.
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): I beg to move:
    "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, to express the heartfelt sympathy of this House in the great affliction and loss which His Majesty has sustained by the death of Her Majesty the Queen Alexandra, and to condole with His Majesty on this melancholy occasion;
    "To assure His Majesty that we shall ever remember with grateful affection the love which the late Queen inspired in all classes of the people, and that we participate to the utmost in the universal feeling of sympathy with His Majesty in his grievous loss."
    According to the Rules and Orders of the House, this Motion should have been placed upon the Paper to-day, and the Motion itself moved to-morrow. But I took upon myself, as Leader of the House, to communicate with you, Mr. Speaker, and with the Leaders of the Opposition parties, because I felt convinced that the Members of this House would not wish to proceed with the ordinary business of the week without passing a Resolution of condolence on the death of Queen Alexandra. You, Sir, were good enough to express the view that, so far as you were concerned, you would allow the Motion to be moved. The Leaders of the other parties in the House agreed with me that it would be the desire of the House that the Motion should be moved to-day.
    I think, perhaps, looking back upon the life of Queen Alexandra, and in her capacity as Queen, nothing is more striking than the way in which, from the moment that she landed on these shores, she identified herself with the country in which, and with the people among whom, she had come to live. Students of history will realise that what we take for granted
    928
    in her life is in reality a rare thing, and, looking back over the years, were there any of us who ever regarded her as a foreigner, and who did not regard her from the first as one of our very selves? Then I think of her other attributes. I would like to dwell for one moment on a very rare personality. Personality is a thing of the spirit, which cannot be acquired, which is given here and there —for the spirit "bloweth where it listeth"—to people in very different walks of life. But when it does exist, it is something for which we ought to be thankful, something which we respect and admire wherever we find it.
    This Queen Alexandra had in a very marked degree, and it was by this means, this gift of personality, that she impressed herself in a very unusual and remarkable way upon all classes of the community. I remember on one occasion in recent years, on a 1st of December, driving in London, and on leaving my cab the driver said to me, "I am so glad it is a fine day." I asked "Why?" "Because." ho said, "it is Queen Alexandra's birthday." That was the way in which her personality impressed itself. It made people of all kinds sympathise with her, and desire that a fine day should come on her birthday, just as every one of us who buys a rose in London in the summer, while remembering the cause for which those roses are sold, buy our flower always with the added feeling, "We hope the day will be a great success for the Queen's sake."
    That feeling cannot be bought. It does not arise from any question of the rank of the person who inspires it. It is a gift of the personality, of the heart and of the soul. If I were asked, what is the key of the personality that she had, and of that kind of personality which many of us have been fortunate enough to know in different ranks in our own lives among our own friends, I would say that it is due to one thing and to one thing alone, and that is the spirit of love that permeated her whole life and her every action. It was that spirit which gave her

    929
    what is so rare and beautiful in age—a spirit of serenity. It was that spirit which brought back to her, in the later years of her life, as comfort for the sufferings that had fallen to her in her human lot, a measure of love and gratitude and veneration from her own children and her own grandchildren, pressed down and running over.
    In this House, and to each one of us it was in her womanhood, that ideal as daughter, as wife, as mother, and as widow that we felt very near to her, so that while—and the House will not misunderstand me—we pay our loyal homage to the King, whose servants we are, at the same time it is every mother's son of us who sends a message of deep and heartfelt personal sympathy to the King, as a mother's son himself, in his hour of loss, which is the sharpest and yet the tenderest to which the sons of men are heirs.
    Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: I rise to associate myself and my friends around me both with what the Prime Minister has said and with the Resolution that he has just moved. For two generations we have felt in our midst the presence of a lady of very sweet graciousness, of humane consideration, and of simple tenderness of heart, Queen Alexandra. Whether she was in the glowing blaze near the Throne, or in the more subdued lights of her widowhood, whether she was in glory or suffering from grief, she symbolised to the whole country, irrespective of class or condition, the detached dignity of royalty and the close kinship of humanity. She was very human.
    She came to us on a spring day in 1863 as a bride, and won our hearts by her radiant beauty and her simplicity of demeanour. From that day to this she has kept our hearts. She has been associated with every humane cause that speaks to the hearts of good women, and that has its source in the deep well-springs of maternity. Greatest perhaps of all of her virtues was her virtue as a good mother. She represented to us not only the emblazoned life of courts, but
    930
    the domestic affections of humbler places. And, when we thought of her, we did not stand stiffly in her presence, but sat in friendly companionship and communion with her as with our own personal friends. Now, rich in years, and crowned with reverence, she leaves us; and all we may do to-day is to pay our most sincere homage to her memory and respectfully offer to her son, who rules over us, our condolences, and I venture also to hope our consolations.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I cannot add anything to the eloquent words which have fallen from the Mover and the Seconder of this Resolution. And, after all, there is nothing we can say about the late Queen Alexandra in this House that is not known to her honour in millions of households in this land. I shall, however, utter a few words, because no section of this House would wish to be unrepresented in the tribute by the British Parliament on behalf of the British nation to the memory of this great lady. It is 15 years since she ceased to be Queen in this land. But she held an even more exalted position as one who was enthroned in the hearts of the people. That she held to the end, and still holds.
    Throughout the whole of my lifetime, I cannot recall a period when she was not loved by every class of the community— not a period. She was loved when she came here—a beautiful girl, the bride of the heir to the Throne, and to become our future Queen. She was loved when the Prussian legions were trampling on her country; she was loved during the whole of the anxieties of her career; she was loved when she was speeding on those myriad errands of mercy which she discharged with the soft radiance of her sweet nature, and she ended by being beloved. She had all the charms and the graces that fascinate and attract people. I do not believe that there is any princess in our history who excelled her in those regal gifts. But she held her popularity for 60 years, because the people knew that they were not superficial—that her wonderful geniality was not shallow or

    931
    false, but was deep-rooted in a tender heart, throbbing with human sympathy.
    She had a simple kindness which was the despair of those who were responsible for her household. I recall—the House will forgive me—an illustration of this when I was Chancellor of the Exchequer. I remember, after the death of the late King, that fine and faithful old servant of hers, Sir Dighton Probyn, called upon me to make certain arrangements. He revealed an amazing story to me of the perplexities caused to him by her unrestrained benevolence—she had no other extravagance. He told me that when anyone wrote her with any tale of woe or suffering, she never made any inquiries, she never sought advice; she instantly put a five pound note in an envelope, and sent it along. This wise old counsellor of hers begged her, at any rate, to allow him to investigate the cases. Her answer invariably was, "How can they wait? Look at this story—his wife and children are starving." That, indeed, was the charity that "thinketh no evil and believeth all things." And it was because
    932
    of this sympathy with uncertified suffering that, when the news of her death passed along, the note of mourning was deepest of all in the humblest quarters of the land, and in those areas they grieve for her, not so much for a great Princess who has passed away, as for a true friend whom they have lost for ever.
    Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: I hope the House will forgive me if I rise to add the voice of Ireland to that of England, of Scotland, and of Wales in eulogy of the late Queen. I will content myself with a sentence. She was especially dear to the Irish people, because of her immaculate loyalty, tenderness, and her sympathy, which they have always regarded as the highest virtues of all.
    Question put, and agreed to, nomine contradicente, all present standing.
    To be presented by Privy Councillors or members of His Majesty's Household.
    The PRIME MINISTER: I beg to move, "That this Resolution be entered in the Journals of the House."
    Question put, and agreed to.

    BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
    Captain BENN: Will the Prime Minister tell us what Orders it is proposed to take to-day?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Only the first Order—the Eating and Valuation Bill.
    Motion made, and Question put,
    "That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
    The House divided: Ayes, 276; Noes, 109.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
  Order read for consideration as amended (in the Standing Committee).
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: I beg to move, "That the Bill be re-committed to the former Committee."
  In doing so, I am actuated by a desire to save the time of the House rather than spend it, therefore I shall be brief in explaining my reasons. In the first place, a considerable volume of Amendments appears on the Paper in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health. Many of these Amendments have not been fully discussed in Committee, and they should, I submit, be given a more careful consideration than is possible on the Report stage. The proposed new Sub-section (4) in Clause 1, for example, is in the nature of the redemption of a pledge which the right hon. Gentleman gave during the Committee stage, and, as one would expect in the case of any pledge given by the right hon. Gentleman, he does all, and more than all, that he said he would do. What, he said, however, was that he would try to meet the wishes of the Members who were nervous about that Clause generally. I submit that the Clause, even as amended, will not achieve the object in view, and that the Committee to which the undertaking was given should discuss the question in detail. Again, during the Committee stage a very considerable alteration was made in the law by the addition of Clause 64, which provides for the rating of Crown property. The right hon. Gentleman is moving to delete that Clause again. That raises a question which ought to be discussed by the Committee which inserted the Clause. I do not here go into the merits or demerits of the Clause, but the right hon. Gentleman's proposal entails consequential Amendments in many parts of the Bill if effect is to be given to it. Now that the Government are setting up machinery which they hope will make the system of rating clearer and better they have no cause for going behind the Committee in this matter. Further, there are many Clauses in the Bill which will become absolutely ineffective in their working
  970
  when the Government's proposed reform of the Poor Law takes effect. If hon. members look at Clauses 16 and 17 they will see that the words "boards of guardians" occur over and over again. Clause 17, Sub-section (3) states, in reference to the constitution of the assessment committees:
  "Of the persons to be so appointed not less than one quarter shall be persons appointed to represent the boards of guardians."
  It further states:
  "The persons appointed as aforesaid to represent boards of guardians shall be persons nominated by the boards."
  That is a provision to which many members of the Committee attached great importance. We thought it would go some little way towards protecting the rights of the rural ratepayers, which we believe will be very gravely jeopardised by this Bill. We did not know then that it was the intention of the Government to abolish the boards of guardians altogether, apparently before the Bill takes effect, so that this provision will be of no value whatever. Clauses 16 and 17, which set up the new valuation machinery, are, perhaps, the most important and most far-reaching in the Bill. They represent the pivot upon which the new valuation machinery will turn. The Committee discussed these Clauses, and also Clause 18, at considerable length, the discussion lasting for five if not six days, but in the light of what we know now, the Committee were under a misapprehension all the time. It would now appear that almost every sentence in those Clauses requires redrafting and reconsideration. That can be much better done after discussion upstairs. There are also Amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Barn-staple (Mr. B. Peto), and others in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Major Ruggles-Brise) and others, which I believe cannot be discussed at all on the Report stage of the Bill.
  If those Amendments stood alone the difficulty could be met by moving the recommittal of the one Clause in question, but my contention is that there are so many Clauses which require alteration since the Committee stage as a consequence of legislation which we know to be pending, that it is far better and

  971
  simpler to recommit the Bill and to take the discussion of the whole question upstairs, where we can thrash out the details, than to proceed now with the Report stage. I also submit that in this way the time of the House will be saved. The Clauses 16, 17, 18 and 66, the proposed new Clause, the long list of Amendments by the Government, and the Sixth Schedule definitely require recommittal. I earnestly appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health in this matter. I oppose him very reluctantly indeed, but many of us representing rural constituencies feel strongly that the rights of the rural community are gravely threatened by this Bill. It is intensely disagreeable to us to oppose the right hon. Gentleman here, but we feel there is a case for recommittal, and I ask him not to put us in a very difficult position by forcing the Bill through on the Floor of the House. The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that the Bill was passed reluctantly by the Committee, and it was only after many heartsearchings that we supported it largely because of our allegiance. I shall not carry opposition to a factious length. The right hon. Gentleman knows that with very little obstruction it could be made impossible to get the Bill through in the three days which are allowed. I do not intend to take part in any opposition of that kind, but I would urge the right hon. Gentleman to give us an opportunity of discussing some of these things again, and not to strain our party allegiance too far.
  The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): I have listened to my Noble Friend with much interest, and with a full appreciation of the spirit which inspired his closing words. I am well aware that the course which he thinks it his duty to take is not one which is pleasant personally, and that he does in fact find himself in a difficult position in trying to square his allegiance to his party with the course he thinks it proper for him to take. I think really that what he desires could be best achieved by a vote against the Third Reading of the Bill, because it is really only the rejection of the Bill which he is asking for in this Motion for recommittal. I need not elaborate that, because it must be perfectly obvious to the House that, if this Bill were to go back again to the Committee in order that all those various and complicated portions
  972
  to which he has referred might be rediscussed in the Committee, it would be physically impossible for the Bill to come back to this House in time to be dealt with before the end of this Session. It would, therefore, be the destruction of the Bill, and I venture to put it to my Noble Friend that it is not saving the time of the House to discuss the life or death of the Bill at this particular stage. There is only one point which he made to which I wish to call attention. He spoke of the large number of Amendments that appear on the Paper, and the changes that will take place in the Bill since it was discussed in Committee stage. There can only be any force in that argument if the Amendments on the Paper introduced into the Bill changes which were not contemplated or not discussed in Committee, but that is not the case.
  I would challenge my Noble Friend to find, out of all these Amendments, anything which involves any change of vital importance in the Bill which was not fully discussed in Committee, Many of the Amendments are due to concessions which I made in Committee and which I promised to put into form when the Bill reached the Floor of this House; many other Amendments are merely of a drafting character, and are improvements in the wording of various Clauses, to make meanings more clear, as will be seen by the House as we go along; and really there is no force in the argument that the Bill has been or will be changed by the Amendments which are on the Paper in such a way as in any way to stultify the discussions in the Committee or to make it necessary that the Bill should go back. It is on the main ground that this Motion really amounts to a rejection of the Bill that I regret that I cannot see my way to accept it, and I trust the House will support me in that attitude.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD Colonel WEDGWOOD rose—
  Mr. SPEAKER: This discussion is governed by Standing Order 40A.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
  HON. MEMBERS: No!
  Question put, "That the Bill be recommitted to the former Committee."
  The House divided: Ayes, 93: Noes, 284.

  Division No. 383.]

  AYES.

  [4.13 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Albery, Irving James

  Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Dalziel, Sir Davison

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Apsley, Lord

  Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Jacob, A. E.

  Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Drewe, C.

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

  Berry, Sir George

  Elliot Captain Walter E.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Elveden, Viscount

  Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Bird, E. B. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Erskine James Malcolm Monteith

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Loder, J. de V.

  Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

  Lumley L. R.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Finburgh S.

  Lynn, Sir R. J.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Fleming, D. P.

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Forrest, W.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Macintyre, Ian

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Fraser Captain Ian

  McLean, Major A.

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

  Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Gates, Percy

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Burman, J. B.

  Gaule, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Meller, R. J.

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Grace John

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Grant, J. A.

  Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Campbell, E. T.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Moles, Thomas

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col Sir F (Dulwich)

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Hall, Capt, W. D. A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Moreing, Captain A. H.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Harland, A.

  Murchison, C. K.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Christie, J. A.

  Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Oakley, T.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Pennefather, Sir John

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Cohen, Major J. Brunei

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Conway, Sir W Martin

  Hilton, Cecil

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Philipson, Mabel

  Cope, Major William

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Pielou, D. P.

  Couper, J. B.

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Pilcher, G.

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Crook, C. W.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

  Preston, William

  Ramsden, E.

  Smithers, Waldron

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Rawson, Alfred Cooper

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Wells, S. R.

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Storry Deans, R.

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Winby, Colonel L, p.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Naim)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Rye, F. G.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Womersley, W. J.

  Salmon, Major I.

  Templeton, W. P.

  Wood, B. c. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Savery, S. S.

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Skelton, A. N.

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

  Commander B. Eyres Monsell and

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dina, C.)

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Colonel Gibbs.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

  Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, North)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro)

  Groves, T.

  Owen, Major G.

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Grundy, T. W.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Potts, John S.

  Baker, Walter

  Hall. F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Riley, Ben

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Barnes, A.

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

  Barr, J

  Hardie, George D.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Batey, Joseph

  Harney. E. A.

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Scurr, John

  Briant, Frank

  Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Broad, F. A.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hirst, G. H.

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Cape, Thomas

  Hirst. W, (Bradford, South)

  Smillie, Robert

  Charleton, H. C.

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Jenkins. W, (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Sneil, Harry

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Cove, W. G.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Cowan, D M. (Scottish Universities)

  Kennedy, T.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Lansbury, George

  Thurtle, E.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Lawson, John James

  Townend, A. E.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Lee, F.

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Lindley, F. W.

  Viant, S. P.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Dennison, R.

  Lowth, T.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Duncan, C.

  Lunn, William

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Macdonald. Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Westwood, J.

  Fenby, T. D.

  Mackinder, W.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Wilson. C H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Windsor. Walter

  Gillett, George M.

  March, S.

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Marriott. Sir J. A. R.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Greenall, T.

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Hayes.

  Greenwood, A.(Nelson and coins)

  Division No384.]

  AYES

  [4.36 p.m

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Riley. Ben

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hardie, George D.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Baker, J. (Wolverhamton, Bilston)

  Harney, E. A.

  Scurr, John

  Baker, Walter

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hayes, John Henry

  Smillie Robert

  Barr, J.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Smith Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Batey, Joseph

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Hirst, G. H.

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Briant, Frank

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Snell. Harry

  Broad, F. A.

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Cape, Thomas

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Thurtle, E.

  Cluse, W. s.

  Kennedy, T.

  Townend, A. E.

  Cove, W. G.

  Lansbury, George

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P,

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lawson, John James

  Viant, S. P.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Lee, F.

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Lindley, F. W.

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Lowth, T.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Lunn, William

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Dennison, R.

  MacDonald. Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Duncan, C.

  Mackinder, W.

  Weir, L. M.

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Westwood, J.

  Gillett, George M.

  March, S.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Greenall, T.

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

  Windsor, Walter

  Grenfell. D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Owen, Major G.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES —

  Groves, T.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Potts, John S.

  Barnes.

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  NOES

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Albery, Irving James

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Fanshawe, Commander G.D

  Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Fenby, T. D

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Fielden, E. B.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W

  Christie, J. A.

  Finburgh, S.

  Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Fleming, D. P.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Forrest, W.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Clayton, G. C.

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Cookerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Benn, Sir A. S (Plymouth, Drake)

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Gates, Percy

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Cope, Major William

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Berry, Sir George

  Couper, J. B.

  Gee, Captain R.

  Betterton, Henry B

  Courtauld Major J S

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.C.(Antrim)

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Ht. Hon. Sir John

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Carig, Earnest (Chester, Crewe)

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Craik Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cunliffe-Joseph Herbert

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Curtis-Bennett Sir Henry

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Curzon, captain Viscount.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Curzon Captain Viscount

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hammersley S. S.

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C R. I.

  Dalziel, Sir Davison

  Harland A

  Broun Lindsay, Major H.

  Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Brown. Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Harris Percy A.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Harrison G. J. C.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S)

  Harvey Major S.E (Devon, Totness)

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Haslam Henry C.

  Burman, J. B.

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Drewe, C.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Elliot, Captain Walter E.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Campbell, E. T.

  Elveden, Viscount

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Herbert, S.(York N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Hilton, Cecil

  974

  975

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Marriott, Sir J. A. H.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Meller, R. J.

  Savery, S. S.

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Moles, Thomas

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Smithers, Waldron

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Moreing, Captain A. H.

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Murchison, C. K.

  steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Jacob, A. E.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Oakley, T.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Penny, Frederick George

  Templeton, W. P.

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Lamb, J. O.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Leigh, sir John (Clapham)

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Lister Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Pielou, D. P.

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Pilcher, G.

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Pilditch. Sir Philip

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Locker-Lampson, Com., O (Handsw'th)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Loder, J. de V.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Looker, Herbert William

  Preston, William

  Wells, S. R.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Ramsden, E.

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

  Rawson, Alfred Cooper

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Lumley, L. R.

  Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Lynn, Sir R. J.

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Remer, J. R.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Remnant. Sir James

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Wolmer, Viscount

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Womersley, W. J.

  Macintyre, Ian

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

  McLean, Major A.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Rye, F. G.

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Margesson.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Mr. ATTLEE: I beg to move,
  "That the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendment to Clause 51, standing on the Notice Paper in the names of the lion. Members for Limehouse and Abertillery, as an Amendment to be moved on re-committal."
  I am quite sure the right hon. Gentle-man will not misunderstand the reason why this Instruction is being moved. He knows how often in Committee we saved him from his friends, and particularly from the Noble Lord the Member for Western Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington), who moved the last Motion, and our desire to recommit the Bill is on the specific point of the payment of dequate personal expenses and payment for the loss of time to members of assessment committees. In this Bill, an endeavour is being made to set up larger authorities than previously existed in rating, and experience has shown that on larger
  976
  authorities, where members have to come some distance to serve, some payment for out-of-pocket expenses and for lost time is absolutely necessary, if we are to have a proper representation of the ratepayers and the people interested. On the work of assessment committees, necessarily, there must be meetings in the day time, necessarily a large amount of time must be taken up, and it simply means that, unless payment be made, the only people who can attend and do the work are persons belonging to one or two rather narrow categories, either people unemployed voluntarily or compulsorily, or people whose particular business allows them time off. In many districts you will find that the only people who get on to these committees will be, possibly, some shopkeepers, and certainly, in my experience, licensed victuallers. It is undesirable that only those in a very few categories should get on these com-

  977
  mittees. In these days no one wishes, I believe, to keep local government bodies restricted to particular classes. It is most desirable that all classes should be represented, but unless some provision of this sort be made, it means that in a vast number of areas the committee dealing with this most important work will be entirely restricted to certain leisured or moneyed classes.
  This Amendment is put forward, because it is impossible, under the Rules of the House, to move it in the ordinary way on the Report stage, but the matter is of such importance that I do think the Bill should be recommitted on this particular point. One still finds up and down the country a few people who consider that all payment of members of public bodies is absolutely wrong, but I find their number is growing less and less. During the past few weeks I have met a number of enlightened local administrators belonging to the Party opposite who confessed that they had always held previously that any payment was wrong, but who had now become converted. I think we want to recognise that in these days, with the change from the small authority, such as the parish, to the setting up of the larger authorities, and even super-authorities, as in the case of electricity supply, and, as you are going to get here, your county valuation committees, it is asking too much of a man to take his whole day away, and give no compensation whatsoever.
  I think the work that is being done on behalf of the public should be paid for properly, and I do not think there is anything outrageous to offend anyone's political belief in the proposal that we make here. It is bringing in a principle already recognised in our large public bodies. In the London area it is recognised in such bodies as the Water Board, the Lee Conservancy Board and others. Outside London, in many of the larger authorities, the payment of reasonable personal expenses is recognised and approved. Anyone who has studied this Bill must realise that we are now going to set up certain committees over large areas. It is a great change, because it is applied particularly to the rural areas. It is not quite so difficult in large towns for the members to reach these committees, but when you have them brought from widely scattered rural areas where
  978
  the travelling facilities, possibly, are not very good, where you are going to ask them to sit, possibly, day after day on this business, it is absolutely necessary that this payment should be provided under the Bill. I regret it was not inserted in Committee, but I want the House to recognise that local administration is of very great importance. I hope we shall have the support of the democrats on the other side, of whom we hear quite a lot nowadays, whose desire is that everybody who is fit should be allowed to take part in public administration, national and local, and who do not wish to keep this work of valuation and assessment the private preserve of a certain elected class.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The Amendment which has been the subject of the hon. Member's speech was discussed in Committee upstairs, and it was defeated by 25 votes to nine. I do not propose to take up very much time over it now, because the answer is a very simple one. The hon. Member, although he is endeavouring to apply the Amendment, to one particular Clause of the Bill, made his speech as though he were applying it to all forms of local government, and it is quite impossible, once you introduce a new principle of this kind into local government, to confine it to the particular instance to which it would apply if the Amendment were carried, namely, conferences called by county valuation committees and attended by the members of assessment committees. There may be a great deal to be said on the one side or the other of the question as to whether members of local authorities should receive, in addition to their travelling and subsistence allowances, which are given them by this particular Clause, personal expenses and compensation for loss of time. I say there may be a discussion on the one side or the other on that point, but, obviously, it is a point which should be raised as a point of principle, and made applicable to all forms of local government, if it is to be introduced at all, and not brought in, as it were, by a side wind, and made to apply to a very limited and narrow range of cases, as is contemplated by this particular Amendment.
  Question put,
  "That the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendment to Clause 54, standing on the Notice Paper in the names of the hon.

  979
  Members for Limehouse and Abertillery, as an Amendment to be moved on recommittal."
  The House divided, Ayes, 111, Noes, 272.

  Division No. 385]

  AYES

  [4.55p.m.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Potts, John S.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Riley, Ben

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hamilton, sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

  Hardie, George D.

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

  Baker, Walter

  Harney, E. A.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Barnes, A.

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Scrymgeour, E

  Barr, J.

  Hayes, John Henry

  Scurr, John

  Batey, Joseph

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Smillie, Robert

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood(Leith)

  Hirst, G. H.

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Briant, Frank

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Broad, F. A.

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Snell, Harry

  Buchanan, G.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Cape, Thomas

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Charleton, H. C.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Stephen, Campbell

  Cluse, W. S.

  Kennedy, T.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Thurtle, E.

  Cove, W. G.

  Lansbury, George

  Townead, A. E.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lawson, John James

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Crawfurd, H E.

  Lee, F.

  Viant, S. P.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Lindley, F. W.

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Lowth, T.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Lunn, William

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Dennison, R.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Duncan, C.

  Mackinder, W.

  Weir, L. M

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Westwood, J.

  Fenby, T. D.

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Gibbins, Joseph

  March, S.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Gillett, George M.

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Windsor, Walter

  Greenall, T.

  Montague, Frederick

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Oliver, George Harold

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Owen, Major G.

  Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

  Groves, T.

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Frederick Hall.

  Grundy, T. W.

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Agg-Gardner. Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Albery, Irving James

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Dalziel, Sir Davison

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Burman, J. B.

  Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Apsley, Lord

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Campbell, E. T.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Drewe, C.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Elveden, Viscount

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Christie, J. A.

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston, s. M.)

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Berry, Sir George

  Clayton, G. C.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W, R., Skipton)

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Cohen, Major J. Brunei

  Finburgh, S.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Fleming, D. P.

  Blundell. F. N.

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

  Cope, Major William

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Couper, J. B.

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Crook, C. W.

  Gates, Percy

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Gee, Captain R.

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Macdonald, Ft. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Gower, Sir Robert

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Grace, John

  Macintyre, Ian

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Grant, J. A.

  McLean, Major A.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Sandon, Lord

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Savery, S. S.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Harland, A.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Skelton, A. N.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Meller, R. J.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Smithers, Waldron

  Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Moles, Thomas

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  Storry Deans, R.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Herbert, S.(York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  Moreing, Captain A. H.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Hilton, Cecil

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Sallsbury)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Templeton, W. P.

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Tinne, J. A.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Oakley, T.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Perring, William George

  Wells, S. R.

  Jacob, A. E.

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Pielou, D. P.

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Pilcher, G.

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Knox. Sir Alfred

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Lamb. J. Q.

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.

  Preston, William

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Ramsden, E.

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Rawson, Alfred Cooper

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Womersley, W. J.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Remer, J. R.

  Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hythe)

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

  Remnant, sir James

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

  Loder J. de V.

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D, T.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Lumley, L. R.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES,—

  Lynn, Sir Robert J.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Captain Hacking and Captain

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Rye, F. G.

  Margesson.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  NEW CLAUSE.—(Exemption of underground sewers from rating.)
  No sewer vested in a local authority which is situate below the surface of the ground shall be assessed to any rate for the time being levied in the parish, district, borough, metropolitan borough, county, or other area in which such sewer, or part thereof, is situate, and no rate shall be payable in respect of such sewer or such part thereof.—[Mr. Barker.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  Mr. BARKER: I beg to move "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  I very much regret to have to move this new Clause. The Minister of Health
  982
  is putting forward a Bill to rate sewers. This seems to me to be extraordinary and preposterous in the extreme, when it is considered that sewers contribute so much to the health of the nation, and it would be difficult to find anything that does more so. It seems to me a very extraordinary thins that the Minister, having charge of the Health Department, should bring in a Rating Bill at this time of the Session to rate sewers. Every local authority which wishes to avoid its duty and allows the sewage to pollute its rivers and streams, would escape a very big financial obligation under this Bill. This Bill, as a matter of fact, is n premium on bad sanitation. Personally, I regret that it is necessary for a Mem-

  983
  ber of the Opposition to ask leave to bring in a Clause like this. The other day there was a parody made on a well-known quotation to the effect that English people have an unfortunate capacity for making drains. If that be so, I do not see why the Minister of Health should try to suppress such a laudable ambition as that by rating these very necessary measures for the promotion of the health of the people.
  Sewers are very costly things. They are not revenue-producing agents. They are laid down and constructed for the promotion of health, and not for the production of revenue. In the area which I have the honour to represent, the Monmouthshire Western Valleys Sewerage Board, in 1903–6–9, promoted three Acts of Parliament to enable them to construct sewers to cleanse and purify the river-bed of the Ebbw and its tributaries. These sewers were formed at an enormous expense. They, indeed, cost upward of £400,000. The charge per annum to the Western Valleys Sewerage Board is not less than £2,300. The rating is £2,800; that is, £500 in excess of the cost of laying the sewers. In the Rhymney Valley area there has been expended £750,000 on the sewers. Owing to the War, the cost of these works have been doubled. The rates paid on these sewers in the Rhymney area amount to over £3,000 per annum.
  These sewers, as I have intimated, have been constructed for the promotion of health, and not for the production of wealth. I have with me some very remarkable statistics. I should like to lay some of them before the House. In 1904 the death rate was 17·81 per 1,000 in the Western Valleys of Monmouthshire. In 1925 that death rate had been reduced to 9·35 per 1,000. I do not claim that the whole of the reduction is due to the operations of the sewers. There is no doubt, however, that the cleansing of the area has had a great deal to do with the reduction in the death rate. To make such improvements in the two areas I have mentioned, over £1,000,000 have been spent and £100,000 have been paid in rates by the people who live in the area. I cannot for the life of me understand why the Minister should oppose this Clause. He did not oppose it in Committee. I hope he will not oppose it in
  984
  the House. As a matter of fact, I do not think any censure cast upon the right hon. Gentleman could be comparable to the censure that this Clause has had to be moved from this side of the House instead of from the opposite side. This Clause ought to have been in the original Bill. It ought not to have been necessary for the Opposition to urge upon the Minister of Health not to tax one of the greatest health-promoting agencies that we have. I have sometimes heard the right hon. Gentleman called bad names. I am not going to repeat any of them. I do not say whether or not he deserves them. Sewers are necessary for the promotion of the national health, and this particular Clause Which I am putting forward has got strong and influential support outside the House. There have been some powerful deputations to this House waiting upon Members and urging them to vote for this Clause.
  Mr. JENKINS: I beg formally to second the Motion.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: In putting forward his proposed new Clause the hon. Gentleman the Member for Abertillery (Mr. Barker) described the proposal in the Bill to rate sewers as extraordinary and preposterous.
  Mr. BARKER: Hear, hear!
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: He has said nothing about sewers above ground. Does he suggest that sewers above ground are not as valuable to health as those underground? Why does he distinguish in the case of a particular kind of sewer? Might I remind him, too, that he brought forward by way of illustration a sewer that runs partly above ground and partly underground. However, the fact remains that the question of rating sewers is inappropriate to a Bill of this kind which deals only with the machinery, and not with the principle of rating. I do not mean to say that I have not, perhaps, some sympathy with the proposal which the hon. Gentleman has in mind. When a deputation from South Wales came to see me on this subject I think I showed considerable sympathy with them, and told them that whilst I could not possibly insert a Clause of this kind in the Bill I did think it was a matter for investigation, and probably legislation. I told them I should give the thing my serious consideration with a view, if possible, to

  985
  deal with it when the proper opportunity arose. It is necessary, however, to investigate the matter, taking into account the question of overhead as well as underground sewers.
  There are other constructions which are as necessary for the health of the people as sewers, which pass through the area of a number of local authorities, and by whom the question of rating might usefully be considered. Take the case of a town which obtains a water supply from a source many miles distant. The pipes may pass through a number of localities. The water in the pipes may be not merely bringing no profit to the authority which consumes it, but may actually lead to a heavy charge upon the rates of that authority. Therefore, I do not think I can consider the question of rating sewers without considering, also, the rating of other structures of that kind. I cannot give any guarantee at this moment as to future legislation, but I can say what I said to the South Wales deputation, that I am hoping that I may be able, in the course of next year, to introduce a Bill amending the Public Health Acts, and that if I do that might be a suitable occasion for dealing with this question, and that I will undertake that the matter shall be taken into consideration before I promote that Bill. That is as far as I can go to-day; but I think the hon. Member will realise that it is not an unreasonable reply to his Motion, and I hope he will not feel it necessary to press it.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman has said that he told a South Wales deputation that he was quite incapable of introducing a Clause of this kind into a Bill of this character. I have a greater belief in the right hon. Gentleman's capabilities than he has himself. I should like very much to discover why a Clause exempting underground sewers from rating cannot be introduced into the Bill, while a Clause exempting certain classes of machinery, above ground, can be put into the Bill? No one exceeds me in the desire to see the unrating of machinery, but I am bound to say I could make out an infinitely stronger case for unrating underground sewers. The manufacturer profits, in the first instance, by the unrating of his machinery; whereas the only persons who profit by the unrating of sewers are the inhabitants of
  986
  unfortunate colliery villages—and other places as well, for it is not merely colliery villages in South Wales that are affected by this—those congested areas where unemployment is rampant, which are saddled with enormous charges for rates levied upon their sewers by other authorities lower down the valley.
  In the one case we are benefiting private enterprise; therefore we exempt machinery. By exempting sewers from rating we should be benefiting local authorities, and particularly hard-pressed local authorities; and therefore the Government have the assurance to tell these local authorities that they are quite incapable of introducing a Clause like this into a Bill of this character. I understand the Government will leave the question of the rating of machinery to a free vote of the House. Could not they also leave the question of the unrating of sewers to a free vote of the House? Then people would be able to record in the Division Lobbies whether they thought it more desirable to take the rates off absolute essentials for health instead of off machinery. I can tell the House, particularly these benches, that the Government will not take off the Whips on such a Division; and in spite of the protestations of the right hon. Gentleman that in some happy future time he will see that this reform is undertaken, it will not be done, because these rates go to the agricultural areas. They profit by the rating of sewers, whether overground or underground, and the right hon. Gentleman being, as he has shown himself over and over again on this Bill, entirely in the hands of the Land Union, it ought to be obvious to everybody that he will never make any change is our system of rating which will touch the pockets of the rural landlords.
  I despair of getting a free vote on this question, but I do not despair of showing the country the irrational character of the right hon. Gentleman's behaviour over this Bill. Rates off machinery; quite right! Reduce the burden upon industry, enable industry to carry on. to produce at cheaper prices, to encourage our export trade—that is sound. But is not the case for sewers far stronger? Encourage your export trade. [Laughter.] Hon. Members Laugh, but they have no experience of living in slums. [HON. MEMBERS: "Have you?"] Yes, I have seen many

  987
  of them in my time. I am really amused at the extraordinary levity with which the House treats the question of the drainage of working men's houses. Even if hon. Members opposite look at this question simply from the point of view of pounds, shillings and pence, a dividend in the terms of the health of the people and a reduction of the death rate is as important;, if not more important, than the increase in our export trade we hope to get from the exemption of machinery from rates. For all these reasons I would ask every hon. Member who really can put party aside and think of this question from the public point of view to go into the Lobby with us on this occasion and register one vote for a sound policy, as opposed to the
  preservation of disease and the benefiting of those agricultural areas which profit by the present system of rating sewers.
  Mr. LOOKER: In view of my right hon..Friend's explanation of the reasons why he cannot accept this Clause, and of what I regard as a very satisfactory assurance that the point will be considered, and an opportunity be found in a future Bill of giving effect to the Amendment desired, I very much hope the Mover and Seconder will see their way to withdraw it.
  Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  The House divided: Ayes. 115: Noes, 276.

  Division No. 386]

  AYES

  [5.22p.m.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Guest, Or. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Ritson, J.

  Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Hall, G. H.(Methyr Tydil)

  Robertson. J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hardie George D

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Baker, J, (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Harney, E. A.

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Baker, Walter

  Harris Percy A.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Scurr, John

  Barnes, A.

  Haves John Henry

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Barr, j.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Smillie, Robert

  Batey, Joseph

  Henderson. T. (Glasgow)

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Hirst, G. H.

  Smith. H. B. Lees (Keighley)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Hirst, W. (Bradford South)

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Briant, Frank

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Snell, Harry

  Broad, F. A.

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamoroan, Neath)

  Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

  Buchanan, G.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Cape, Thomas

  Kelly W. T.

  Stephen, Campbell

  Charleton, H. C.

  Kennedy, T.

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Lansbury George

  Thurtle, E.

  Cove, W. G.

  Lawson, john James

  Townend, A. E.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lee, F.

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Lindley, F. W.

  Varley, Frank B.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Lowth, T.

  Viant, S. P.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vate)

  Lunn, William

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Mackinder, W.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Dennison, R.

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Duncan, C.

  March, S.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Dunnico, H.

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Weir, L. M.

  Fenby, T. D.

  Montaque, Frederick

  Westwood, J.

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Gillett, George M.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Greenall, T.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Owen, Major G.

  Windsor, Walter

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Groves, T.

  Potts, John S.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Grundy, T. W.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Riley, Ben

  Frederick Hall.

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Albery, Irving James

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Blundell, F. N.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Apsley, Lord

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Berry, Sir George

  Brass, Captain W.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Brown, Brig-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Perring, William George

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. sir William James

  Harland, A.

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Pielou, D. P.

  Burman, J. B.

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Pilcher, G.

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Campbell, E. T.

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Preston, William

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Ramsden, E.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Rawson, Alfred Cooper

  Cecil. Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Remer. j. R.

  Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Honn, Sir Sydney H.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Christie, J. A.

  Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar, & Wh'by)

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Churchill, Ht. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Hilton, Cecil

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Clayton, G. C.

  Holt, Capt. H. P.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Rye, F. G.

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Couper, J. B.

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Sandon, Lord

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C.(Antrim)

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Savery, S.S.

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Jacob. A. E.

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Crook, C. W.

  Kennedy, A. R.(Preston).

  Skelton, A. N.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Smith R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, c)

  Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Knox, sir Alfred

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

  Lamb, J.Q

  Smithers, Waldron

  Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Dalziel, Sir Davison

  Lister Cunliffe., Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Davidson, J.(Hertfd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Loder, J. De V

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Looker, Herbert William

  Storry Deans, R.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, 8.)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Stott Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

  Stuart Crichton-, Lord C.

  Doyle. Sir N. Grattan

  Lumley, L. R.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Drewe C.

  Lynn, sir R. J.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  MacAndrew Charles Glen

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Skyes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Elliot, Captain Walter E.

  Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

  Templeton, W. P.

  Elveden, Viscount.

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Macintyre, Ian

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  McLean, Major A.

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Tryon, Rt. HON George Clement

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Macguisten, F. A.

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

  Ward, Lt -Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

  Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Warner. Brigadier-General W. W.

  Fielden, E. B.

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Finburgh, S.

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Fleming, D. P.

  Meller, R. J.

  Wells S. R.

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  White. Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Mitchell, sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Winsby, Colonel L. P.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Moles, Thomas

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon Earl

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Wise Sir Fredric

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Moore. Sir Newton J.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Gates, Percy

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Womersley, W. J.

  Gault, Lieut.-Cot. Andrew Hamilton

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Gee. Captain R.

  Moreing, Captain A. H.

  Wood, E.(Chest'r Stalyb'ge & Hythe)

  Gibbs, Co,. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Morrison, H (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Murchison, C. K.

  Woodcock, Colonel H.S

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Newman Sir R. H. S. D. L (Exeter)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt.. Hon. Sir L.

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D.T.

  Grace, John

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Grant, J. A.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Gretton. Colonel John

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Major Cope and Captain Viscount

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Oakley, T.

  Curzon.

  Question, "That leave be given to withdraw the Amendment," put, and agreed to.

  RATING AND VALUATION BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Rating authorities.)
    Sir HENRY CAUTLEY: I beg to move, in page 1, line 9, after the word "shall," to insert the words
    "as soon as may be after the passing of this Act appoint a board of overseers consisting of such number of persons as may be determined by the council, but not less than six such persons in the case of rural district councils shall, to the extent of two-thirds of the total number appointed, be persons nominated by the parish councils and parish meetings in the district, and such board of overseers shall."
    Although this Amendment raises a question of principle as to the machinery of the Bill it does not affect the principle of the Bill. I am entirely with the Government in so far as the intention of the Bill is to procure uniformity and economy in our rating system, but personally I have not the slightest doubt that the Measure as it stands will have the result of increasing expenditure and increasing the assessments. The framework of the Bill is that it provides that every county borough shall be the rating authority and that in the country and urban districts the urban district council and the rural district council shall be the rating authority. In so far as the rating authority's work is to draw up demand notes and collect the money, that would not make much difference, because it is more or less an administrative act, but the point is that by this Bill the rating authority is entrusted with the preparation of valuation lists. The vice of the Bill is that it leaves to the spending authority, that is, the local authority— whether it be a county borough, an urban council, or a rural district council—the making and collection of the rate, and the assessment on which the rate is founded, which to my mind is a new departure in this country, and a very serious departure which places the ordinary ratepayer absolutely under the control of the local authority and makes his position, so far as he has any injustice being done to him, almost intolerable.
    The House, or at least those hon. Members who are interested in our rating system. will remember that from the earliest times when we had a Poor Law, that is 1601, the overseers of the poor not only made the assessment but also collected the rate, and they were the spending authority as well, but when the great reform of the
    992
    Poor Law took place in 1834, after the experience we had of that system Parliament decided that it was essential in the interests of fair, equal, and economic administration that the spending department should be separated from the assessment authority and the overseers were continued as the rating authority. That Act took away from them all powers of spending, and set up the boards of guardians that we have to-day. So important was it considered to be that the overseers should act independently with the assistance of the assistant overseer upon whom this duty fell, that it was declared by the Law Courts that the assistant overseer was not the servant of the local authority but was in an independent position. I want to know what useful purpose is going to be served by departing from the precedent.
    I wish to point out that the result of making the spending department the assessing department will be that, whenever any assessment is questioned, the spending authority will be made judge in its own cause, because it would be interested in keeping the assessment as high as possible. The persons who drafted this Bill evidently knew that this proposal would not stand a test in the Law Courts, because under Clause 71 of this Bill they have taken special care that the principle which has been laid down from time immemorial by the Law Courts shall not apply. What is it I am proposing? I am proposing that a board of overseers shall be appointed by the council of not less than six persons. I may say at once that my scheme is not one to which I am particularly wedded, but I regard it as vital to stick to the old principle and keep the rating authority independent of the spending authority and keep the assessment committee to which the appeal from the rating authority goes independent of the spending authority.
    This Bill proposes to abolish the overseers. My Amendment proposes that the local authority shall, in the case of a county borough, appoint a board of overseers with statutory powers to prepare valuation lists and to collect the rates, a system in operation in Liverpool and Manchester, and I believe in Norwich at the present time, and I believe it has worked very well. I should like to see that done in this Bill so far as local authorities are concerned in our rural

    993
    districts. I propose that the parish council should appoint for each council in their area a member of the rating authority. All hon. Members know that at the present time every parish is a unit for rating. We have two overseers appointed and an assistant overseer. The assistant overseer does the work, and he is paid a small sum for doing it. The only real local government we have now in regard to our parish councils—I happen to be the chairman of one of these councils—is the appointment of our overseers and our assistant overseers, and by that means we do secure that the best people are appointed with the best knowledge of the value of lands and houses in our area, with which they are fully acquainted, and in that way we get as fair a valuation as it is possible for us to do.
    We are going to lose all that under this Bill, although I am glad to know that the Minister has appreciated somewhat that point of view, and has met us some little way by allowing us the appointment of one overseer to the rating-authority and only giving him power to act in matters relating to his particular parish. What are the dangers of this change? I said in Committee, and I repeat, that if we lived in a perfect world it would not matter very much whether we had high assessments and low poundage or low assessments and high poundage, but in practice it works out quite differently. If you have a high assessment and low poundage there is every temptation to the local authorities to spend money more carelessly, and you get the rating authorities in different areas comparing their poundage, and they make no mention of the fact that the assessments are much higher in one area than in another.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I hope the hon. Member will recollect that fact when he talks about Poplar.
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: I am glad the Eon. Member has mentioned Poplar, because I am going to deal with that in the next point on which I am going to address the House. There is, and has been, a great growth in municipal trading in recent years, and the party to which the hon. Member who just interrupted me belongs have, as I understand, made it part of their creed that they are going to do away with all private enterprise and have nothing but municipal trading. It has been openly stated, I will not say by
    994
    the hon. Member, but my many of his party, that, in order to carry out this process of doing away with private enterprise, they are going, by peaceful penetration or permeation, to secure control of our local authorities, and, by the encouragement—as I think, unfair encouragement—of municipal enterprise to drive out the private trader.
    This Bill as it stands provides the very weapon that the hon. Member and his friends desire. Sub-section (3) of Clause 1 enables a local authority to act by committees. You will then have this state of affairs, and I ask whether it does not make any thinking person pause. You will have the local authority appointing its finance committee. Its finance committee, which incurs the expense, will be appointed to be the rating authority, and the finance committee as such will have to raise the money, to make the assessments, and to alter the assessments. The only appeal from the valuation list, made by this committee of the council, was originally to the assessment committee composed of the same council, but in committee that was altered to this extent, that one-fourth of the assessment committee must be members of the board of guardians—which the right hon. Gentleman tells us is going to be abolished at once—and one-fifth of the committee still remaining is to be appointed by the local authority from outside the council. Therefore, the only appeal from the finance committee, who have fixed the assessment, is to another or probably the same committee of the council, with one-fifth of its members added from outside, leaving the council complete control. There is no other remedy for the ratepayer who may be oppressed by such action, except the very expensive process of appeal to Quarter Sessions—a most difficult and really not practical measure for anyone except the richer people.
    I do ask the House carefully to consider this scheme, and whether it is wise and prudent to entrust such powers to our local authorities throughout the country. I know the Minister has had some trouble in dealing with the West Ham Borough Council within the last few weeks, and has had to strain his powers to the very fullest. The same use has been made by local authorities all over the country of this power to outrun the

    995
    constable, and the Minister has no control. I know that he is at his wits' end to find some method of controlling local authorities that have deliberately set themselves to make local government impossible. Having had that experience, I am at a loss to understand how he can ask the House of Commons to give to local authorities still further and enlarged powers which will tempt them to set him at defiance and to become still more extravagant and aggressive. Even in the case of Income Tax assessment, where the assessment is fixed by a different body altogether, namely, the Inland Revenue Department, care is always taken that, in arriving at an assessment under Schedule A or Schedule D, justice may be done to the taxpayer, and, under the Act of 1918, if the taxpayer thinks the assessment unfair, an arbitrator can be called in to hold the scales equally between the taxpayer and the Inland Revenue in order that justice may be done.
    Why cannot we have some such provision in this Bill? The assessment committee ought to be as independent as it can be made, because it is the assessment committee that really does the work of rating. If you have an independent assessment committee, in whom the ratepayers have confidence, it will guard against any injustice, and people will have the knowledge that the matter will be settled by an impartial tribunal. What justification does the right hon. Gentleman put forward for his Bill? His department has spread far and wide the statement that the number of rating authorities is going to be reduced from 13,000 to 600. He is counting each little parish overseer as a rating authority, but he says at the same time that the parish overseer will be taken on to do the work under this new body. He has forgotten, however, to tell us that the assessment committees are increased from 750 to about 1,750—
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Where did my hon. and learned Friend get that information?
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: I understand that it comes from the Ministry itself. If I am wrong in that, I must withdraw it.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have not said so.
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: I did not say the Minister had said so. Of course, if I am
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    wrong in that, I accept his statement that I am wrong, but I wish he had told me, while he was correcting me, what the increase in the number of assessment authorities may be. I understand that in Lancashire to-day there are some 25 Poor Law unions and 25 assessment committees. Under the Bill, these 25 carefully arranged districts will all come to an end; there will be 17 separate assessment committees for the 17 county boroughs, and there will be the 83 urban districts, the 19 rural districts and the 19 non-county boroughs, all of them having rating authorities, and many, if not nearly all, separate assessment committees. I am sorry if I am wrong in the figure that I gave for the increase in the actual number of assessment committees under this Bill, but I have not the least doubt that they will be very largely increased. Moreover, I would point out that at present the clerk to the guardians acts, for a moderate increase of salary, as clerk to the assessment committee. Under the new Act, every assessment committee will require a highly paid skilled man as clerk, probably a solicitor, to advise them on the law of rating, which is very complicated. He will require assistance, and will require a number of officers. I only mention this to show that there is no saving in doing away with our old and tried friend, the overseer. The main point, however, is that it is unsafe to hand over to our local authorities—the people who spend the money, the people who vote for schemes for spending money —the power of assessing the ratepayers who have to pay the money. It is unsafe that the same body should appoint the assessment committee, which deals with appeals. This lays thorn open to great pressure to make unduly high assessments, and provides no system in which the ratepayer will have confidence.
    6.0 P.M.
    Mr. HARNEY: I beg to second the Amendment. The point of the Amendment is to preserve the overseers, but the point of the Clause is to abolish them. By Clauses 1, 25 and 63, all the functions now exercised by the overseers will in future be exercised by the borough councils or the district councils. In order that the House may appreciate what are the real objections to substituting the new method for the old, it is necessary to form a clear idea of the position and functions of the overseer at the present

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    time. The overseer came into existence as far back as 1601; he must have taken thyroid gland, for he is now 3¼ centuries old. From 1601 to 1836, the overseer discharged the threefold function of making the rate, of valuing the premises upon which the rate was struck, and of spending the rate—the only spending then being for Poor Law relief. Prior to 1836, it was found that this union of the three functions was leading to great extravagance. When men who were the spending authorities found that in their hands lay the power of collecting the money that they desired to spend, their sense of responsibility was found to be somewhat weakened, and it was because of that, among other things, that the Act of 1836 was passed. That Act, in effect, said this: "We will take away from you, the overseers, the powers you now have of spending the money that you raise. You will continue to do the raising, but a new body, called the board of guardians, will do the spending." That state of things continued until 1862, and then assessment committees were formed and to them was given the second of two functions which were still left to the overseer, namely, assessing. So therefore from 1862 to the present moment you have had three bodies mutually independent—the overseer, making the rates, the assessment committees, fixing the valuation of the property on which the rate is to be struck, and the various precepting bodies doing the spending of the money. That has been found to operate as an invaluable check upon extravagance, generally speaking.
    This Bill proposes to reunite what was severed in the way I have said in 1836 and in 1862, and if those functions were found to operate badly in unions, in my submission they would operate infinitely worse in the future, because in 1836, if there was extravagance, the only direction in which it could go was in public relief. Now the councils which are to be given the three-fold function, which was found to be a bad thing when it was exercised by the overseers, who are now to assess and to spend, have temptations infinitely greater than the guardians ever had to become extravagant. To start with, their motives for expenditure are very much enlarged. Secondly, councils now are trading concerns. They are
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    houseowners. They build houses and they do a great number of other matters of that kind, and I know my friends on my right will not take it at all as offensive if I say this. There is, we know, a large preponderance in the country of persons dominating councils whose policy is that of Socialism, and a half-way house or a step towards Socialism is municipalisation. I am not saying anything against it. As far as my argument is concerned I need not say a word against the policy, although of course I do not agree with it. That is the best argument that those who favour Socialism will put forward: "There is the municipal concern. See how well that is paying. There is the private enterprise concern. See how badly that is paying. Three cheers for municipalisation!"
    This union of the three functions puts an instrument directly into their hands to make that argument and to make it most effectively. I will tell you now. Since they are the rating body they can, of course, discriminate. They can say "high rates private enterprise, low rates municipal enterprise," and they have done so in London, and they can go further. They know that a soaring rate creates a public protest. They must aid the municipal concern and must extract the money from the rich ratepayers without making evident what they are doing. What is the method that this Bill puts into their hand? "You," the Bill says, "have the power not only to rate, but to assess, assess high and rate low." People will say, "But the rates are low." It is not public property. That is individual knowledge. That is kept in the dark, and the people will be drained and drained and drained in order to let off municipal concerns, and the rates will not appear to be so very high because it will all be done by the method of assessment. Is not that a most dangerous weapon to put into anyone's hands? I make no reflection on the character of gentlemen who have a socialistic policy at all, but it is a dangerous thing to put into anyone's hands—a body of barristers or any body of men. To say, "We know it is your interest to rate one class of things high and another low, and we will give you the power of doing that without exposing what you are doing to the public," is a temptation that ought not to be presented to anyone. Experience prompted the severing of these three functions, and to unite them again at a

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    time when the temptation to extravagance is infinitely greater is a very-wrong policy.
    I do not want the right hon. Gentleman, whom nothing escapes, to say I am not justified in my statement as to the three functions being now united; therefore I want to make quite clear what I mean by that. By Clause 1 the county brough councils are made the rating authorities. That is clear. They are also made the persons to prepare the valuation lists. They are also made the spending authorities, which they are already. Are they made the assessing authorities? In my submission they are. As the Bill originally stood, they actually were. An Amendment made in Committee brings it about that the assessment committees are to be composed in this way. Half of them are to be members of the council, not less than a quarter of them would be representatives of the guardians, and would be appointees of the council, and not less than one-fifth would be an outside body who would be the appointees of the council. Therefore the council which is to make the assessment is made up directly of half themselves, and the balance are their nominees. Under these circumstances the assessment is done by the council, the same body that rates and the same body that spends. As regards rural districts, so far the position is that that idea is to run through the appointment of the assessment committees, but it is to be subject in detail to a scheme to be promulgated under the Act.
    The right hon. Gentleman, who I am bound to say treated everyone in Committee with the utmost courtesy and did his best, in so far as he thought he was justified, to meet their objections, has gone so far as to put down an Amendment which recognises that it would not be quite fair really to blot nut of existence this old historic parish system of England. He recognises that the overseer is really the pivot of parish life, and that if he were to go, a great deal of that public spirit in local areas, which has been the. pride and the cause of a good deal of the solid advancement of England, would tend to go, and accordingly he has an Amendment on the Paper which admits of the parish being represented. That is something, but I would appeal to him to go a bit further, because even though
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    that is done, you still keep in existence that union of functions about which I have spoken. The Amendment proposed here seems to me to be a very reasonable compromise between two extremes between those who would like the overseers and the parishes to vanish for ever, and those who, like myself, would like to see the position of the overseers continued and strengthened. It does not do all that I wish nor, of course, all that the right hon. Gentleman would wish, but it is a fair compromise because all it asks is this. You still can do away with your small area and have the whole thing done in the big area, where the district or town council will still be the responsible rating authority, but they shall appoint a subsidiary and subordinate board of overseers who will be independent, and who, under the responsibility of the council, will themselves do the work. I submit that that is a fair compromise, and it will show that there has been an honest effort made not at all to wreck the Bill, but to preserve its structure.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley), in moving his Amendment, seemed to think that it is not one which in any way interferes with the main principles of the Bill. At any rate, it does serve to bring out the expression of certain fears which are held, perhaps not alone, by my hon. and learned Friends who have moved and seconded the Amendment, as to the possible working of the provisions of the Bill. I am not sorry, therefore, to have an early opportunity of saying one or two words about it. I think the general basis of these fears is to be found in an expression which has been used a good many times by my hon. and learned Friends, that it is a dangerous thing to put into the same hands the power of spending and the power of rating. Are we sure that that is so?
    To begin with, is it a new departure, as was stated by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grinstead. What is this House? Is not this House a spending authority? Does this House set up an independent board in order to deal with the question of taxation, lest it should be led away to abuse its powers of spending, because it does not itself have the duty of raising the money? What greater check is there upon the

    1001
    extravagance of this House, if it desires to be extravagant, than the knowledge that it has to take the responsibility of raising the money? Precisely the same thing applies when you come to the raising of local taxation. I have been told that those who have been present when overseers have been seeing ratepayers, and have been listening to their tales of the difficulties they experience in finding the ready cash to pay their rates, have frequently heard statements made by these people, in their difficulties, that they only wished the members of the Council who spent the money would hear what they had to say, instead of only the; overseers, and that, if that were so, they were quite certain that the councillors would not have rushed into the expenditure which had put the ratepayers in such straits.
    I think the right principle is that those who spend the money should also have to collect it, and that they should be brought into close touch with the ratepayers, in order that they may see directly what is the effect of their expenditure upon those for whom they are responsible, and that they should have those difficulties in their minds when they are considering new schemes which are going to lead to large demands upon the ratepayers. That is the first fallacy that is to be found in the expression of the fear which is in the minds of my hon. and learned Friends; but there is another one which is a good deal more specious. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grinstead made it a good deal clearer on this occasion than in Committee, and I hope I may take to myself some credit for that, because in the course of the Committee proceedings I end savoured to bring him down to a definite statement exactly as to the circumstances which he feared might take place under the Bill.
    We have had this afternoon a fresh statement from my hon. and learned Friends of what they think is going to be done by certain town councils or district councils, on which I think they anticipate there is going to be a highly immoral majority, under the powers that are to be entrusted to them by this Bill. My hon. and learned Friends say that these people are not merely the rating authority but also the assessing authority. They are not the assessing autho-
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    rity. It is part of their duty to prepare the draft valuation list, but I would recall what my hon. and learned Friend said, very truly, that it is not the draft valuation list which finally determines the valuation. It is the assessment committee which, in his opinion, is far more important than the body which prepares the draft valuation list. Take the draft valuation list. What is it exactly that these people, these immoral councillors, are going to do, under the presumption that they get the power that is given to them by the Bill? It is very puzzling to make out what is anticipated, because sometimes we are told that they are going to put the assessment too low, and at other times we are told that they are going to put the assessment too high. I do not want to make any sort of debating score over this matter by attempting to point out the inconsistencies, which I do not think really exist, in the minds of my hon. Friends, but it is necessary that we should be clear as to what are the cases which are imagined are going to arise. Let us take the question of putting the assessment too low. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grinstead stated that they would differentiate between property belonging to the local authority and property belonging to private persons.
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: I said that there would be a temptation to do that.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My hon. and learned Friend does not imagine that they will stop at the temptation. Let us see whether they will have the temptation. I think my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) was mistaken in one statement he made. He said that these people are now houseowners, that they build houses, and I understood the inference to be that they would put the assessment upon the houses owned by the Council lower than the assessment on houses owned by private people. That is impossible under the existing law. They cannot make any distinction between one house and another, and it is well to wipe that out at once. I think my hon. and learned Friend rather spoils his own case by bringing in suggestions of that kind, which really have no foundation at all in fact.

    1003
    There is a possibility in another case that I would like to explore. The case I have in mind is the case where there is a municipal trading concern, let us say an electricity supply. There will not he another electricity supply in the area, but there may be a gas supply, and that gas supply may be owned by a private undertaking. The suggestion is that the local authority will be able to lower the assessment upon its electricity supply property in order that it may the more easily compete with the undertaking of the gas company. Let me point out that the chances are that that gas company is not only supplying that one area. As a rule in the large towns the gas concern is owned by the Corporation: but in the country districts no doubt you would get private gas companies supplying the area, and other areas, and where that is the case the valuation of that company will not lie with the local authority. It will lie with the joint local authorities, who will have to come together, and I do not think we need assume that all the areas in that neighbourhood will be dominated by a majority which would be led to advertise and to push its own ideas of municipal ownership to the extent of swindling in the assessment. In the majority of cases that cannot arise.
    It is only where the undertaking is coincident in area with a competing undertaking of the local authority that there can be any chance of this possible discrepancy and differentiation. But even if swindling is done on the draft valuation list, that draft valuation list does not become operative until it has been confirmed by the assessment committee and, of course, the gas company can go before the assessment committee and put its case and show that the competing undertaking is undervalued, if that be the case. In a country district, the assessment committee is not an assessment committee which is dominated by the particular local authority which, by hypothesis, owns the electricity supply of the district. The assessment committee there is a joint affair, drawn from a very much larger area. Even if the assessment committee went wrong by any possibility, and if it were in league with a particular local authority to make an unfair difference between these two concerns, then again
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    the gas company has an appeal to Quarter Sessions, and, whatever may be the differences of opinion about the expense of the appeals by individuals to Quarter Sessions, it cannot be said that that would prevent a gas company from appealing. I cannot figure to myself that a danger of this sort, of differentiation between competing concerns, is any more than a figment of the imagination.
    I come now to the further class of case, which lies in the suggestion that the local authority will deliberately raise the assessment, not merely on its own property, but on the whole of the property in its area for the purpose of making the poundage of the rates appear low. It is solemnly suggested to us by my hon. and learned Friends that this policy is going to deceive the ratepayer who, although he is going to pay more out of his pocket, is going to be led to think that he is paying less.
    Mr. HARNEY: No.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Unless that is my hon. and learned Friend's argument, there is nothing in the argument.
    Mr. HARNEY: I do not think my right hon. Friend has put the argument that I made. What I said was, that the difference between taking the same amount on a low assessment and a high rate and taking it on a high assessment and a low rate was, that a high rate and a low assessment would create a public protest whereas a high assessment and a low rate would not create a public protest. The amount has nothing whatever to do with it.
    Mr. CHAMBERLATN: I cannot see the slightest difference. The real fact is that the public does not judge by what it sees of the rate, but by what it pays out of its own pocket. It is absurd to suggest that the public is going to be so easily gulled as my hon. and learned Friends seem to think. We are not dealing with academic abstractions, but with actual facts. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grin stead said that this Bill introduces an entirely new departure into our practice. He has forgotten London. This has actually been in operation in London since 1899. Have these feared results followed? It is a fact that in London there are certain boroughs upon the council of which there

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    is a Socialist majority. Are their rates lower than the rates of other boroughs? Has the fact that their rates are so much higher prevented them from going on spending the money of the ratepayers? Take Poplar as an instance. In Poplar the borough council is the rating authority. It is the authority which prepares the draft valuation list. No hon. Member on this side of the House would hold up Poplar as? an angel of light, or as a model of what a local authority should be in all respects. I do not think that he would suggest that they have bean able to use the powers which have been given to them, to wangle the valuation list in such a way as to make the rates appear low. What is the particular proposal which was made by my hon. and learned Friend? It is the appointment of what was called by the hon. and learned Member opposite a subsidiary and subordinate board.
    Mr. HARNEY: I said subsidiary and subordinate board as regards responsibility, but they were to be independent as regards the striking of the rates.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Then it is to be both independent and subordinate.
    Mr. HARNEY: Exactly. There is nothing inconsistent in that.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Let us see who is to appoint this Board. It is to come back again to the Council, who are ex hypothesi an abandoned set of people, who have no scruples. The Council are going to appoint a Board of Overseers for the purpose of doing all that the hon. Member thinks that the Council might do if they were so inclined. Why he should imagine that by the appointment of such a Board he is protecting himself or the ratepayers against the dangers which he fears I cannot for the life of me imagine.
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: If you make the Committee statutory they would be independent.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My hon. and learned Friend seems to forget that by his assumption the Council is a Socialist Council. It can appoint Socialists, and, if the Socialists are independent, that means that nobody can stop them from doing what they like. I have tried by the Amendment which I have put on the Paper, to give effect to a concession which I promised in Committee
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    to meet the case made by those who said, "You are going to make it difficult to maintain this special local knowledge and experience of overseers in particular parishes." I have tried to meet that by the Amendment which follows on the Paper. The rural council is a representative body whose members are drawn from all parts of the district, and when it is assisted by the special representative of the parish in connection with the rating or valuation of property in the parish it is really a more satisfactory body from the point of view of the parish than such a body as is suggested by my hon. and learned Friend. A rural district includes about, say, 20 parishes in the country, and even if, as my hon. and learned Friend said, the number on the board of overseers is to be limited by the council, it is probable that you may well have over the whole 20 parishes six persons who are representing the parishes. My hon. and learned Friend does not in any way suggest how those six shall be selected. The proposal which I make, which gives not only general representation to all parishes which are involved, and special representation, with a special committee, is a more democratic, and, from the point of view of the parish, more satisfactory representation than that which my hon. and learned Friend's proposal suggests.
    I submit, therefore, that the proposals in the Bill have stood the test of experience in London, and not only in London but in a number of boroughs outside London, which have, by means of Private Bill legislation, involving, no doubt, considerable expense to themselves, obtained the very arrangement which we are now proposing to adopt throughout the country. My hon. and learned Friend's proposal would mean that he is going back again to the old state of things, with two sets of rating authorities in the same district. He is going to force those towns and boroughs who want to get the advantage of consolidation once more to resort to this extravagant and wasteful process, whereas our proposal is that all should get the advantages which have been already obtained by the few who used both their time and their money in promoting private legislation. In these circumstances, I cannot accept the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend, and, having heard the arguments, I hope that he will agree with them and decide not to press the matter.
    Mr. ATTLEE: I would like to say a word or two against the Amendment. We have had two very interesting speeches which would have been more interesting if they had been rather different. As I happen to have seen the Land Union's remarks on this proposal before, they were not quite so fresh as might have been expected. I do not see any Liberal or any Conservative view, but in their review of history from 1601 to 1836 just the same train of thought by the two hon. Members. There is one remarkable coincidence in their remarks. Both the hon. and learned Gentlemen are afraid of anybody becoming a judge in his own case, but anyone who reads Clause 48 of the Bill will see how the lawyers look after themselves. There, there is ample provision made, without any protest from either of the hon. and learned Gentlemen, that in the case of the Inner Temple the rating authorities shall be the Masters of the Bench of the Hon. Society of the Inner Temple, and in the case of the Middle Temple the Masters of the Bench of the Hon. Society of the Middle Temple—the very people who own the property. No wonder the hon. Member below the gangway was afraid of a Committee of Lawyers.
    The hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley) is in terrible fear of what may be done by Socialist councils. I did not know that we had made such great strides in the rural districts as we seem to have done. Evidently our backward areas campaign has been a great success and the red light has been seen rising down in Rye. The hon. and learned Member is afraid that the councils will, to use the expression of the Minister of Health, wangle the case as between private and public ownership. It seems to me to be an innocent position to take up—that there is great danger that local authorities owning electricity undertakings will wangle the matter of rating their own property. Has the hon. and learned Member never heard of people with gas shares getting on to public bodies? Has he never heard of people owning private property trying to wangle things? Has he never heard of particular societies getting on to the assessment authorities? The only danger is the danger of too much public spirit on the part of, say, the kind of people who run the municipal undertakings in Birming-
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    ham. There is great danger, the hon. and learned Member is very much afraid, that such wicked Socialists may say, "We are anxious to put up magnificent electricity undertakings like those in Birmingham." He cannot trust the Minister of Health and his family in the reputation which they have of looking after the public interests in Birmingham. The hon. and learned Member is concerned mainly with rural areas in which the Socialists have not been able so far to provide public undertakings.
    This proposal is a thoroughly reactionary proposal. It has not been thought out at all. You would have a board of overseers consisting of a number of persons to be determined by the council, but not less than six, and not less than two-thirds shall be persons nominated by parish councils and parish meetings in the district. I have had some experience of endeavouring to get local authorities to agree together in the appointment of a representative, and if they cannot agree you are going to have an enormous body if each parish is to have its representative. I would remind the hon. and learned Member of the difference between nomination and election. You have people elected to the rural district councils because they have certain sympathies. On the other hand you may have a number of people who are nominated because of private enterprise or some private interest. The real reason why parish councils are dominated by certain interests is that the parish councils are put into power by certain interests. I think that this Amendment, like the Amendment that follows by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, is one which is going to end really by killing the whole purpose of this Bill. The whole purpose of this Bill is to get a fair valuation and a fair assessment, and I think that it was realised by the Ministry in introducing it that it was necessary to have a wider area than the parish. You are now going back to the parish. You are getting your parish pump put in everywhere, and you are going to have the old parties to dominate rural areas. I do not profess to know very much about what goes on in rural areas. The information which I have comes mainly from highly respectable Conservative Socialists, but it suggests that when it comes to wangling they do not need any backward areas campaign.

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    In the history which we have got from 1601 to 1836 we had two proposals given, one on the other side by the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead and the other by the hon. and learned Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney). I could recognise the original document from which they have been derived. It is a very simple history. Neither of the hon. and learned Gentlemen seems to realise that at present boroughs can make their own valuation. As regards safeguards against extravagance, I am satisfied, but I gathered that the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead is dissatisfied. Therefore, West Ham, in which the old system exists, with overseers and the rest of it, comes unscathed through the contest, and it is only Poplar that is condemned. I hope that the House will reject both this Amendment and the Amendment in the name of the Minister of Health which appears later on the Paper. We on this side in the Standing Committee saved the right hon. Gentleman from his friends on many occasions. I wish he had managed to stand a little firmer, because this Bill, introduced on lines which were generally approved by us, has been marked by surrender after surrender to the backwoods interest. This Amendment, and that which comes later, really knock the bottom out of the Bill. The principle of the Bill is fair valuation and fair treatment of all property, but the raids that have been made on that principle seem to make it extremely doubtful whether the Bill will be so much an advance as we had hoped. This Amendment would substitute something quite as reactionary as the present system and something less efficient.
    Sir ALFRED MOND: The speech of the hon. Member who has just spoken has certainly been refreshing to the Minister of Health. As one who had some connection with this matter as Minister of Health, and with the Committee that sat for a long time over a Bill that was being prepared, it is somewhat gratifying to me to find such an out-and-out supporter of the conclusions originally reached by the Committee on which the Bill has finally been drafted. I have no doubt that the hon. Member, like my right hon. Friend, found that in the passage of a Bill of this character, however logical the scheme may be at the beginning, you have to make
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    concessions to various—not interests, but to various customs, feelings and sentiments. There is no doubt at all that a great deal of feeling, some of it perhaps not very well founded, has been created by the machinery of the Bill, and that there is a fear on the part of those living in the remoter districts that their position will not be realised by rating authorities which are drawn from a more centralised body. It is that feeling very largely which has led to this Amendment being proposed.
    I cannot accept the arguments adduced in favour of the Amendment. The purpose of the Amendment is met to a very large extent, and better met, by a Government Amendment, which is to be moved later. Everyone who has seriously examined the question realised that to have an enormous number of small assessment authorities is both extravagant in administration and unfair in incidence. You do not get a uniform system of assessment at the present time. You get a tendency to under-assessment in some areas, and that is unfair to all the people living in the area. I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman recognised that there is a very strong feeling, particularly among the farming community, that the parish council and the smaller areas were being excluded entirely. As far as I am personally concerned, I would advise withdrawal of this Amendment and support of that which stands in the name of the Minister.
    Mr. E. ROY BIRD: I wish to support the Amendment. My hon. and learned Friend (Sir H. Cautley) who moved it said that that he did not think it was fundamental to the Bill. I regard the Amendment as a fundamental Amendment, and I believe that, if carried, it would mean the end of the scheme For that reason I support it. If the overseers are reinserted in this Clause the Amendment is a. fundamental Amendment. Nothing has been said in the Debate which has been in any way derogatory to the overseers, a body of men who have been in existence for some 300 years. They are men who do their work for honour and not profit, and no one has suggested in this House that they do not carry out their duties without fear or favour. I have heard it suuggested outside this House that in rural districts such as that which I have the honour to

    1011
    represent — the largest district in England, or one of the largest, being 60 miles by 40 miles—the overseer, who has friends among the farmers, can give them a low assessment. I would remind the House that the valuation list is prepared in draft by the overseer. It then has to go to the assessment committee, who can send it back with revisions to the overseer if they are not satisfied with the valuation made. Further than that, if the assessment committee is not satisfied in the end, it has the power already to appoint a valuer for the purpose of getting a valuation of the whole of the union.
    One union in my division has an acreage of 151,000, with 33 townships. It has recently been valued at an expense of £3,000, so as to get uniformity of rating throughout. It is a union which is almost as big as some counties. Every assessment committee has already the power to appoint valuers so as to get uniformity of assessment. To me it is significant that the party opposite, the official Opposition, support the Minister. The reason is that they regard this Bill as a Socialist Bill. It is a Bill which would have been introduced by a Labour Government, and it is a Bill that would have been torn to ribbons by my hon. Friend the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health, if it had been introduced by the party opposite. The object is to get rid of a great many small authorities, and it is what I would call the first step in the nationalisation of local government. I take it that this is only the first step, because we have been warned by the Minister that boards of guardians are to be abolished by a Bill to be introduced next year. If there be one Bill that I would regard with more disfavour than this Bill, it would be a Bill to abolish boards of guardians. West Ham has been mentioned. If among 640 there is one black sheep, why should the 639 have to suffer? It is to the interest of the poor that they should have their own neighbours as guardians, so as to—
    Mr. SPEAKER: We must not discuss a hypothetical Bill of next year. Sufficient for the day—
    Mr. BIRD: I do not wish to detain the House longer, but I desire at this early stage to cancel the two or three times I have been into the Division Lobby. I
    1012
    went there for the purpose of having this Bill thrashed out on the floor now, instead of being recommitted to a Committee. It is a Bill that ought to be tackled on the floor of the House, and for that reason I apparently voted in favour of the Bill. In taking the step that I am taking it is against my party, I know, but I regard my duty as this: Having been returned for a division which is essentially rural, where we have, I am thankful to say, not one tram, where we have practically no municipal undertakings, where we have very few drains— we are absolutely rural up the dales—I express the view of the parish councils, the overseers and the district councils in my division, who are opposed to this Bill chiefly on the ground of economy. That is a point which has not been touched upon sufficiently.
    7.0 P.M.
    I understood that the object of this legislation was to make economies in rating possible. I am informed from one union in my own division that, whereas the work in the past has been done by overseers who are not paid, and by assistant overseers who are paid on an average about £20 to £25 a year each, and where there are 13 of them employed, that their work in future will be done by a new department which will be set up under the district council. They will not be transferred officers under the Bill. I have taken the trouble to ascertain the facts from clerks of councils in my division, and they say that it will be impossible in areas of great size to transfer the overseers, who live a long way from what one might call the centre of the assessment area of the district. In the union already mentioned it will be necessary to employ some five or six new clerks for the purpose of carrying out the duties of these assistant overseers. That will be an expense which, the clerk tells me, he does not think he will be able to meet at a less salary than £300 a year each, which will far exceed the present cost of paying assistant overseers the paltry sum of £25 a year each. I have much pleasure in supporting the Amendment.
    Mr. GEOFFREY PETO: So many very kind things have been said to-day about overseers that I feel most diffident in rising to address the House, because I cannot put before the House a view of the

    1013
    Bill from the Olympian heights of the Front Bench or even from the more modest elevation of the county council, but only from the humble hillock of an overseer of a very rural parish. I should like to take the opportunity of replying to the remarks made by the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) in regard to backward areas. I do not see why he talks of the rural constituencies as backward areas, nor should I think that that is the best way for the Socialist party to woo others to their cause. I would remind him of what appears in Mr. Rudyard Kipling's "Jungle Book" and of the Bandarlog, or monkeys, who live in the tree tops, and spend their time saying, "What the Bandarlog say to-day, the rest of the world will say to-morrow!" That represents the attitude of the Socialists to rural constituencies.
    We have been told that the overseers have the best knowledge of conditions in their districts. When I was overseer I must admit that I was not returned by the overwhelming vote of an enthusiastic parish, but I was appointed to the post of overseer for one reason only, that nobody else could be found to take it, and equally when I tried to give it up I found it extremely difficult to get anybody to relieve me of it. I am glad to say that I have now resigned.
    There are three classes of overseers so far as I can make out. There is a small class which wants to value his own property as low as possible and wants to value other people's property at a more reasonable rate. There is another class which wants to value all the property in the parish at a low rate, so that the parish shall not have an undue share of the county rates: and there is a third to which I strove to belong which tries to value all the property in the parish, including his own, at what it ought to be. I was put to the test, for soon after I was appointed overseer, a decree went forth from the district council that we should have a revaluation of the whole district. It was very necessary. There were fields there of equal quality with just a hedge between them, and one side of the hedge would be valued at 12s. 6d. and the other might be valued at 23s. an acre, simply according to what parish it happened to be in, if the hedge was a parish boundary. My co-overseer and I set to work on the valuation. We
    1014
    bought maps and went over every field, and we found land which had never been on the list at all. We returned the valuation to the best of our ability, decreasing some and increasing a good many more, and among the ones we increased I much regret to say were my own property and the property of my co-overseer. And then what happened? Other parishes made their valuation, and they were all sent in to the assessment committee, and a flood of appeals came in from all over the district. The assessment committee were seized with panic and allowed most of the claims and reduced the valuations. What happened to us? We, as overseers, could hardly appeal against our own valuation, so we were left high and dry above the rest of the parish. That is what you get for trying to be an honest overseer.
    An overseer has a thankless task, and it is not a right post to thrust upon people in the way it has to be done today in many parishes. It also involves a great deal of travelling to the local towns at the beck and call of the assessment committee, and Government auditors call the overseer constantly before them. They are everybody's servants, and they get no remuneration whatever. I think personally the Amendment the Minister is going to move, which will give a representative of the parish some voice in the valuation of his own parish, will meet the case admirably. We want somebody with local knowledge on the assessment committee when it is considering the particular parish, but the general valuation must be done on a wider area so that those who are doing it know the valuation in the neighbouring parishes. We will thus get some uniformity, and not get the friction which results from the present methods.
    Sir JOHN MARRIOTT: I want to say a very few words from a point of view rather different from that of those who have hitherto spoken on the Amendment. The Amendment has been almost entirely supported from the point of view of the rural areas, very naturally and very properly, but it seems to have escaped notice that the particular proposal which is in view in this Amendment is drawn from two of the most important urban districts in the whole of England, not Birmingham, but Manchester and Liverpool, and every-

    1015
    thing I have to say will be said from a town point of view. The hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) described this Amendment as a reactionary Amendment. It seems to me that the Bill itself is really essentially reactionary in that it is going back on certain principles which have been affirmed, and affirmed with great success, in the history of our local administration. The whole essence of this Bill is to concentrate functions in the hands of a single authority—to concentrate the functions of rating, of assessment and of spending. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health made, as it seems to me, a most extraordinary statement in regard to the analogy between this House and the local spending authority. It seems to me that the analogy was one of the most extraordinary which was ever attempted to be imposed on the credulity of this House. This House is not the spending authority at all. This House has got to find the money, but it is His Majesty, it is the Crown, which is the spending authority. It is His Majesty, acting of course through the Government Departments, for it is one of the best recognised rules of this House that it is not within the competence of any Private Member of this House to propose the expenditure of one single farthing. How, under those circumstances, can the Minister of Health come down to the House and seriously suggest that this House is not only concerned to find the money, but it is also concerned to spend it? I frankly admit that the efforts of this House in the direction of economy are not so successful as they might be, and that as a matter of fact the disposition in the mind of a good many Members of this House is towards an extravagance which unfortunately they cannot as Members of this House indulge. It is for the Ministers of the Crown, on behalf of the Crown, to ask this House for money and for this House to find it. Therefore, the analogy which my right hon. Friend attempts if establish between the body which he is proposing to set up under this Bill, and this House of Commons seems to me to break down entirely.
    I have only one or two words to say in supporting the Amendment which has been moved by my two hon. and learned Friends, but moved as I have said rather
    1016
    from the point of view of the rural than from that of the urban districts. I cannot feel at all comfortable in regard to what is after all the central feature of this Bill. This Amendment really goes to the heart of the whole matter. Those who are opposed to this Amendment are strong advocates of the Bill as a whole, but the point on which I confess I have not yet been satisfied is that it is desirable, as I said earlier in my remarks, to concentrate in a single authority the three functions which under this Bill are attempted to be imposed, as both my hon. and learned Friends in their very interesting historical retrospect made clear. As a matter of fact, the history of local administration and the history of rating in this country has been a history of the disjunction and the differentiation of functions. Of course, as everybody knows these functions were combined, and it was discovered about 1834 that concentration of these functions was tending to the grossest extravagance in administration, and the Act of 1836 was passed in order to disjoin the functions which it is the purpose and the main object of this Bill once more to unite, and that is why I cannot feel in a position to vote against the Amendment.
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: May I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment? The Minister informs me that he is prepared to accept an Amendment which is to be moved later by the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Major Ruggles-Brise). As my interest in the matter is mainly the agricultural interest, and as no borough Member has risen to support me, I desire, in view of the Minister's undertaking, to withdraw my Amendment
    Several MEMBERS Several MEMBERS rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. Members did not object.
    Mr. HARNEY: May I, as Seconder of the Amendment, say—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I have already put the Question to the House twice.
    Mr. SCURR: I was shouting "No," but perhaps my voice did not reach you, Sir.
    Mr. SPEAKER: No voices reached me.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 2, line 13, at the end, to insert the words
    "(4) In the case of a rating area being a rural district the parish council of every parish or group of parishes, and the parish mooting of every parish not under a parish council, shall be entitled to appoint one person, being a local government elector, to act as a member of the rating authority, or of any committee appointed by that authority in pursuance of this Section, so far as regards the exercise or performance in connection with property in that parish or group of parishes of any powers or duties of the rating authority under Part 11 of this Act, and the person so appointed shall, for that purpose, but not for any other purpose, be deemed to he a member of the rating authority or committee, as the case may be."
    I do not think it necessary to say anything more about this matter which has been discussed in connection with the last Amendment. I only wish to confirm what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley) has just said. If my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maldon (Major Ruggles-Brise) cares to move an Amendment to my Amendment, to have the effect of making the parish representatives two in number instead of one, I shall be quite prepared to accept it?
    Mr. HARNEY: I only wished to say, as Seconder of the previous Amendment, that if the Minister accepts this proposal, I do not oppose.
    Major RUGGLES-BRISE: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in lines 3 and 4 to leave out the words "one person, being a local government elector "and to insert instead thereof the words" two persons, being local government electors."
    There are three small Amendments which, if this Amendment be accepted, will follow consequentially. As the Minister considered it unnecessary to make any remarks in moving his Amendment, I do not propose to take up the time of the House any further. I think the Minister is to be congratulated on having made the gesture which he has made towards those who feel very strongly on these matters as the representatives of rural areas. The House may also congratulate itself that a principle, of which, I think, all Members are rightly jealous, will now be preserved. In matters of taxation, whether local or on the wider scale, we should preserve as far
    1018
    as possible the well-established principle that in the assessment of that taxation we should be assesed by our own peers in our own parishes. The Amendment which the right hon. Gentlemen has accepted will preserve something at least of that principle, and I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that in taking this step to meet the representatives of the rural areas, he has gone a long way towards killing part of the opposition to the Bill. That opposition, as lie knows, in other respects still exists and perhaps before the Bill passes he may see his way still further to meet the representatives of rural constituencies, but I assure him we welcome warmly the step he has taken in this particular respect and we hope it augurs well for further concessions.
    Mr. RHYS: I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
    Mr. RILEY: I desire to oppose the Amendment. I prefer the Clause as it stands. The hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. E. Bird) earlier in the Debate questioned the motives of those on this side of the House who were supporting this Bill as against the Amendment which had then been moved and he suggested that the reason was that the Bill was of a Socialistic character. Perhaps a more-pertinent guess at the reason—though not a true one—would be to suggest that we were influenced by the alliance which we-have seen made between the hon. and learned Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) as a Radical and other hon. Members. The simple truth is that some of us on these benches support the Bill because we accept it as an instalment of democratic government and as the reform of an old system which has outlived its purpose. The argument is put forward that we ought not to disturb the old system and this Amendment is aimed at avoiding a disturbance of the old system, on the ground that we have had experience for many years of that system. In taking that view, hon. Members overlook the fact that all the great municipal authorities have come into this system since it was established.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I should point out to the hon. Member that I must dispose first of the Amendment to the proposed Amendment. The hon. Member is now speaking against the main Amendment. We should take the Amendment to the

    1019
    proposed Amendment in the first place and then go back to the Minister's Amendment.
    Mr. RILEY: I desire to oppose the main Amendment.
    Mr. SPEAKER: Quite so. I will take care that the hon. Member has an opportunity of doing so.
    Mr. RYE: May I speak on the Amendment to the Amendment?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Amendment before the House is that which proposes to substitute "two persons" for "one person." I propose to put that Amendment and then take the discussion on the main Amendment.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I think we Ought not to allow the Amendment to the Amendment to go without further discussion. Some of my Friends, who do not happen to be in the House at the moment when this manuscript Amendment is being considered, view an extension of this kind with some dubiety. I have a little experience of parish councils, not enough to enable me to speak with great authority, but from such experience as I have had in connection with parish councils in Cambridgeshire, I think it is undesirable—if the Minister is to maintain the main purpose of this Bill—that there should be a larger representation of parish councils than that proposed in the original Amendment. We think the right hon. Gentleman has made too many concessions already, and we hope he will not, for the sake of making further concessions, press this proposal upon the House. I do not wish to make a violent attack on parish councils, but I am not persuaded from my knowledge of them that we want to enlarge their representation beyond that suggested by the Minister in his own Amendment.
    Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made to the proposed Amendment:
    In line 4, leave out the words "a member" and insert instead thereof the word "members."
    In line 7, leave out the word "person'' and insert instead thereof the word "persons."
    In line 9, leave out the words "a member" and insert the word "members." —[Major Ruggles-Brise.]
    Question proposed, "That the proposed words, as amended, be there inserted in the Bill."
    Mr. RILEY: I desire to oppose the Amendment as it now stands. I do so on the ground that instead of being an improvement of the Clause it is a reactionary addition. When this Clause was originally introduced the Bill visualised every rural urban and municipal authority as both a rating authority and an assessing authority. The proposal now before the House is to allow each parish council to elect two representatives to serve upon the rating authority. I notice the Minister in his preliminary statement said that a rural district area might contain as many as 20 parishes, and he objected to the parishes being represented directly on the ground that the rating authority would be too large. Now the right hon. Gentleman accepts this Amendment which enables parish councils each to elect two and which may bring the parish councils membership for a rural area up to 40.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: These representatives do not sit permanently on the rating authority. They only sit for the purpose of the particular parish which they represent. Therefore, there are only two at a time.
    Mr. RILEY: Surely there are 40 on the authority for rating purposes? However, I accept the Minister's statement and I come to my main objection to the Amendment. Only one reason has been put forward for a departure from the Clause as it stands and for bringing the representatives of parish councils into the new rating authorities. Hon. Members who take this view have in mind that they are going to obtain for rural districts some prospect of lower assessments than those which would be obtainable under the properly elected urban and rural district councils. As a matter of fact, under the existing law, parishes are already entitled to representation upon the rural district councils, and if this Amendment were not carried, each parish would still be in direct touch with the rating authority through its representative on the rural district council. I submit that is a much more democratic method than recreating

    1021
    in another form the old system of overseers.
    The argument has been used to-day that it is necessary to bring in the overseers as representing the parish, in order especially to have some voice in the assessments, on the ground that the urban authorities, both urban in the ordinary sense and municipal, would be biassed with regard to the proper assessment of public property under their jurisdiction. The Minister himself has already given reasons why there is no validity in that argument, and may I suggest another reason to those who put it forward? Surely the members of an urban or rural district council or a municipal authority who have public property under their control are also themselves ratepayers in the locality, and, therefore, in assessing property, they have their own interests at stake, and they will also be accountable to their ratepayers. Prom every point of view, and especially from the point of view of a democratic administration by rating authorities, it is far sounder to allow the councils as publicly elected to be the authority than to have other persons put On who are not directly responsible to the electors.
    Mr. RYE: Although I welcome any proposal which will result in the parish councils having representation on these valuation committees, I suggest that this Amendment scarcely does justice to those in the rural areas. It is perfectly true that there will be a representation, but it is to be very limited, and instead of the parish council being entitled to appoint any person to attend on the valuation committee in the ordinary sense of a full committee man, whoever are appointed as the representatives of a parish council -can only go there with strictly limited powers, and can only have a say with regard to the hereditaments within the actual parish which they represent. That is a retrograde step, because, in effect, you will have partisans coming forward. If you send representatives who are not at liberty to express their opinions—and the House must remember that in nine cases out of 10 the representatives who will come forward will be the old overseers—if these gentlemen, when they arrive at these valuation committee meetings, are not at liberty to give the benefit of their experience, except in regard to their own particular parishes, they must
    1022
    of necessity, whatever their qualifications may be, ultimately develop into mere partisan representatives.
    I do not know whether it will be said that they are invited to these committees because they have expert knowledge, and that they go there in an advisory capacity, but, if that be so, then it appears to be fairly obvious that anyone who goes there in the capacity of an expert should have his views accepted by the general committee, and if that is not to be the case, you might just as well leave matters as they are at present and leave the valuation for the rural areas in the hands of the overseers. I cannot see why the parish councils should not be at liberty to appoint their representatives in the full sense of the word, to sit upon the committees, and to act, not merely within the four corners of their own parish, but generally throughout that particular rating area. It seems to me a somewhat extraordinary state of affairs to suggest that, where you have an expert, with full knowledge of one parish, he is not to be at liberty to open his mouth or express any opinion whatever as to the hereditaments in a parish immediately adjoining his own, yet, on the other hand, although that person, having special knowledge, intimate and expert, cannot express the slightest opinion as to the value of a hereditament within a few yards of his own parish, you are going to have the real members of the committee, those who are appointed by the rating authority, interfering with, expressing views upon, and deciding as to the valuation of the very hereditaments in the parish which this representative represents. It seems rather a curious state of affairs.
    I cannot help thinking that this proposal, good though it is in the sense that the parish councils and the rural areas are to have representation, is somewhat humiliating to those engaged in local life in the rural areas. You are saying to them, "We do not pay any attention to your expert knowledge or your views. except in regard to your particular parish, and when you come before us we, who have not anything like the knowledge that you possess, reserve to ourselves the right to outvote you and fix a valuation which may not accord with your views." There is another point of view, which is perhaps a minor one, and that is the posi-

    1023
    tion of these representatives of the parishes when they are to go to meetings. I have no doubt it will be said that the meetings of the valuation committees will be so arranged as to avoid any delay and inconvenience to those special representatives, but who is to say when they are to be present? If you are going to take the valuation which presumably will be done in the parishes, who is to say how long is to be taken in deciding and fixing the values for any particular parish? You will have the rather humiliating spectacle, apart from inconvenience, of the representatives of all the parishes within a rating area standing, so to speak, on the mat outside the door, waiting like good boys to be called in by the schoolmaster, and, when they have got inside the door, and have had their say, they are to be told, having done their work like good boys, to run away. I suggest that the Amendment which stands next on the Paper in my name might be considered by the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. That would give full representation on these committees for the parish councils. They would then represent one-half of the committees, and they would be in a proper position, and not merely in the nature of partisans coming forward to fight their own battles for their own particular parishes.
    Mr. SCURR: When I was a humble Member of the public outside of this House, before securing the honour of membership in it, I always watched with considerable interest the career of the right hon. Gentleman the present Minister of Health, and I always had the impression that he was one of the strongest of our modern statesmen. To-day, unfortunately, I have to revise that opinion completely. Instead of the strong statesman, able to stand up for the Measure which he introduced and placed before the country, right the way through we have found him making a series of surrenders at every point. This Bill to-day, and particularly if this Clause is carried, will be something like the Irishman's knife, which the Irishman said had belonged to his grandfather. It was true that his father had put on a new handle, and that he himself had put in a new blade, but it was still his grandfather's knife, and this Rill is the right hon.
    1024
    Gentleman's in the same sense as that knife was the grandfather's. When I look at this Clause, I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he would save a considerable amount of the Government's time for other business if he were to withdraw the Bill altogether, for, by accepting this Amendment, he has practically left the present position unaltered.
    It was proposed that we should have a system similar to that obtaining in London since 1869, which was held up to us by the Memorandum issued with the Bill, yet now we find the Minister coming along and creating this particular authority, on which we are to have two persons from every parish, coming up simply all the time to procure the underassessment of their own particular area. There, can be no reason whatever for them being there, except that. Why are they afraid of having a system of rating such as has obtained in London, which has been such an undoubted success? The reason is that all the various interests which are at stake, and particularly the landowning and farming interests, are anxious that they shall not pay what is their rightful share of the rates for local services. I protest against this helpless surrender on the part of the Minister to his backwoodsmen, who have been fighting him all the way through. During the discussion of the Bill in Committee upstairs, the Minister secured most loyal support from Members of the Labour party in regard to carrying the Bill in its original form. We did our best to help him, but our reward, which, of course, we deserve —because, after all, the Labour party has no business to support anything put forward by a Conservative Government— is that he treats us with the contempt which we deserve. That is about the only thing on which we ought to congratulate him, and it will be a lesson to a good many on this side in the future, in regard to any action we may take. We now recognise that the attitude of the Government is simply to surrender to all the reactionary interests, and in so doing not to accept any help which may be given to it by those who may differ from the Government politically. Therefore, so far as we are concerned, in regard to this Clause and all these other Clauses which will render the Bill absolutely useless,, they will have our stringent opposition.
    Captain BOWYER: The hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr) seemed uncertain why the parish councils wanted representation. It has always seemed to me in the past that hon. Members opposite, if I may say so with great respect, do not take human nature into consideration. I should have thought it was as obvious as anything could be that, if any man thinks he knows a little bit more about a subject than another man, as people who live in the parishes rightly think they do concerning the property and other things in the parishes, it is only consonant and in harmony with human nature that they should wish to be present when the future and the prosperity of that parish is to be discussed. I mainly rose to congratulate the Minister of Health on having given way on this matter, and to thank him on behalf of a very great number of parish councils in the Northern parts of Buckinghamshire, because I know how much importance is attached to the concession which he has made to-day, and I feel sure that a great deal of the opposition of the parish councils, an opposition which has struck me as being curious, in that it was directed against the whole Bill, in toto, would have disappeared or would have become very much less well defined if they had known of the agreeable attitude that the right hon. Gentleman would take towards this matter to-day. I thank him most heartily.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The right hon. Baronet the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. I found) twitted my hon. Friend the Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) with his approval of the speech made on the preceding Amendment by the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. I am inclined to think that nearly everyone on these benches approved heartily, and was convinced by, the speech of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to that Amendment. It was a most convincing speech, and when he made an exactly similar speech in Committee upstairs how heartily we approved of it! How we felt that at last we had a strong man at the Ministry of Health who understood what was wanted! The only difficulty we have is that the right hon. Gentleman's convincing speeches do not seem to have convinced himself, and all of us who were inclined to think that the case could not be put better, must now regretfully
    1026
    observe that there is one case which could be put better even than his logical and convincing argument, and that is the pressure from the representatives of the Land Union behind him. He has run away on every possible occasion. This particular Amendment now is to enable the various parish councils to send two representatives of each parish to the valuation committee in order to see that their own parish is not over-assessed.
    The first thing I have to say about this Amendment is that it is thoroughly undemocratic and thoroughly reactionary. In the rating authority as it stood you had a directly elected body, who, if they were unjust in their valuation, could be called to account by losing their seats on the rating authority. Now the right hon. Gentleman introduces this indirectly elected body, the representatives of the parish councils, elected by the parish councils and sent to this assessment committee with the object of keeping down their own valuation. I prefer to have on these valuation committees people who can be called to account by the public, and not people who can be, called to account by their vested interests. But that is not the only objection to the innumerable surrenders of the right hon. Gentleman. The, argument that has been used throughout by the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley) has been that if you had a full assessment, if property were assessed up to its full value, then you would have a low poundage, and that was undesirable, because people would not appreciate the charges made by a local authority, or the expenditure of a local authority, unless the poundage wore high.
    There may, or there may not be anything in that argument, but what T want the House, to follow is, that unless you have a full assessment, you must necessarily have an unjust assessment. If your assessment is low and your poundage is high, then what can the particular property owner do who is selected from among his neighbours to be assessed at full value? If he appeals, it can be shown that his property is not undervalued, and he cannot point out that the vast mass of the property in that area is undervalued. We all know—and the speech of the hon. Member for the Frome Division (Mr. G. Peto), I think, made it absolutely clear—that, wherever

    1027
    possible, property is undervalued. The amount of under-valuation, particularly in these rural areas, has been notorious, and if any hon. Member happens to have the courage and honesty of the lion. Member for Frome, he will know that if his property is valued at its full value, he has no redress as against the undervaluing of all surrounding properties. In fact, the object of having a full assessment is to see that everybody is treated alike, and the farm is do not secure lower valuation than the cottagers and people who own houses, but that all are assessed in accordance with the principles of our rating law, that they shall be assessed at the annual value of their property at what it would let in its present position. The argument used throughout by the Land Union is, "Preserve for us our old system under which farm property and landed property can be under-as6essed, and in which house property and cottage property can be assessed up to the full limit."
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: I have nothing whatever to do with the Land Union, and I do not believe the hon. Member who seconded has.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The hon. and learned Member is not the only Member on those benches who, throughout the 24 days in Committee, persistently used the argument that what they wanted was low assessment and high poundage, instead of high assessment and low poundage.
    Mr. RYE: May I point out that I was the first Member upstairs to put forward the principle we are now debating, that the rural areas and parish councils should have representation, and I am not a member of the Land Union.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The hon. Member was by no means the first person to put it forward. The first was the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley). This is not the first Amendment on this subject. I should say there were at least a couple of dozen to reduce the assessment and keep up the poundage, and if the two hon. Members are not members of the Land Union, that does not alter the fact that the Land Union circularised members of the Committee in this direction. In Committee it was hardly denied that the bulk of the opposition to the principles of the Bill
    1028
    came from those people who wished to have their assessments in rural areas lower than that of other people.
    What I want to point out is that a low assessment must be an unjust assessment. If you insured that everybody had an equally low assessment, I should not complain, but when it is, as it has been hitherto always, a question of certain interests getting a lower assessment, and other people being assessed up to the top, then you get that injustice which this Bill as originally introduced was meant to stop. Originally this Bill had in it a scheme whereby the assessment for Schedule A and the Schedule for Rates should be co-ordinated. That was wiped out. Then you had a scheme as in the Bill we have before us, where the rating authorities, an elected body at any rate, were the people who prepared the valuation list. I do not think there was much hope for that scheme in the sense that it provided a juster valuation, but now even that has gone, and the right hon. Gentleman has made the final surrender. I agree with the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr) that this Bill now, so far as valuation is concerned, is absolutely no improvement whatever upon the existing practice, and that so far as the rest of the Bill is concerned, I do not believe that we have got one single step forward in solving the problem which has faced every Minister of Health during my time in the House of Commons. I hope that we may yet see a Minister of Health who is prepared to stand up in the interests of justice against the biggest vested interest in this country.
    Mr. HURD: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has really taken this matter sufficiently into consideration with the representatives of the Rural District Councils' Association? No opportunity has been given for canvassing opinion. We know nothing of the probable effects upon those who work this matter, and the Rural District Councils' Association are very doubtful indeed whether this will work at all. They believe it will be extremely difficult to work Take, for instance, a scattered rural union. There are sometimes 60 parishes, and each man will be concerned with the affairs of his own parish. How will it be possible to make a system of this sort work? I wish the right hon. Gentleman would tell

    1029
    us whether he has really gone into it from the point of view of actual day to day work of local administration. It seems to me a great pity that a matter of this sort should be rushed through the House, and we should really know that those who have to handle these matters believe it will be a workable and desirable change.
    Mr. ATTLEE: This Clause as proposed now seems to me entirely to upset the whole purpose of this Bill. This Bill was designed to get rid of the parish and substitute a larger area. What, in effect, this Amendment does is to set up separate committees for each parish, because you have a valuation committee set up in a district council. That committee may be sub-divided, with power to make committees of all sorts, and then that committee is to have two co-opted members in respect of each parish. It is quite clear that these two members will be there as advocates for that parish, and everyone who is on a public authority knows the trouble there is with the ad hoc co-opted member, because, being put on some committee specially, he is only interested in that, and in this case you have a valuation committee diluted with the representatives of local interests. It is quite clear that, instead of having some definite line of principle running at least through the whole of the rural district, it is going to be qualified in each parish by the representatives of that parish. Who are those representatives going to be?
    8.0 P.M.
    One might have hoped, as the working men are waking up, and getting on to the various councils, that they might have been representatives. The Amendment I put forward at an earlier stage was not passed, but rejected, so the workmen will not be able to be representatives because of the expense. The result will simply be the representation of the landed interest. I believe that over a large portion of the rural district area there was a decent chance that you would get some sort of uniformity, and people who would be serious in dealing with property, and would hold the scales fairly even. How-is that possible when you are going to have the people chosen in the way that has been described? I put it to the hon. Member who got the support of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, who is always talking about the danger of the
    1030
    people being judges in their own case— here we have it that you are going to get people whose cases are going to be judged, or their friends' cases, in this manner. It is all very well to say that the working men cannot be judges in their own cause. I think probably, if not certainly, in his heart of hearts the Minister is very unhappy about this Clause. I do not think he can be very happy either about the Bill. The Bill is one which started out with high hopes. The Minister, instead of being firm as he was earlier, is now simply surrendering again and again so that he is not even secure in the support of the rural district councils. I do not undervalue the work done by the parish councils, but the one thing with which they ought not to deal is the valuation of property. It is not the small but the large unit you want in the valuation of property. I hope the House will vote against this Amendment. The Bill was introduced and discussed in Committee. We spent 24 laborious days trying to knock it into shape. When it comes down to the House on Report we find that the main principle of the whole Bill is thrown over by the Minister and absolutely surrendered to the reactionary forces of his own party.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: It seems to me that the party opposite are not going to improve their position on the countryside by this attitude towards the Bill.
    Mr. LANSBURY: They will be all right!
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: I suggest to the hon. Member for Limehouee (Mr. Attlee) that he might be a little more accurate. He has used the word "co-opted" several times. As a matter of fact the representative of a parish council will be elected by the parish council. The attitude of the Socialist party—
    Mr. ATTLEE: The hon. Member has not quite grasped my point. My point is that they are co-opted from the standpoint of the Committee by outside bodies. [compare them with the co-opted member of a committee of a local authority.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: The phrase used by the hon. and gallant Member was "co-opted." My point is that they are directly sent to the rating authority by the parish council. It seems a pity that

    1031
    the party opposite should take the attitude they do towards the parish councils which, after all, represent the life of the countryside. They have a full voice upon the rating authority. Speeches made by hon. Members opposite might lead one to suppose that these two representatives of the parish council were going to decide what the valuation of their parish is to be. As a matter of fact, they will be there merely to afford full information about the affairs of the parish. The hon. Gentleman and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) can never get away from the iniquities of the landowner. As a matter of fact, I dare say I have had as much, if not more experience of parish councils than the hon. Gentleman the Member for Lime-house, and the representatives that will be sent to the rating authority are very unlikely in most cases to be landlords—
    Mr. LANSBURY: Farmers?
    Mr. SOMERVILLE:They are not chief landlords. I am very glad indeed that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister has accepted this Amendment. It will be most acceptable to a. large number of parishes, at any rate in Berkshire. I am suggesting to the party opposite that they will not help themselves on the countryside by saying what they do against those who desire to have a say in the discussion of their own affairs.
    Mr. JAMES HUDSON: I cannot take a part in this discussion as an expert in the sense of having been a representative on a parish council, but, at any rate, I have at least this much experience, that I got to know much of the attitude of the parish councils in what are called "backward areas" by the fact that I was a defeated candidate for a parish council on more than one occasion. It is a very valuable experience. I would remind the hon. Member for Frome (Mr. G. Peto) who made such an interesting speech from the other point of view this evening, that while he found it difficult to find an overseer to take his place, that the overseers in the parish where I tried to get on the parish council never thought for a moment about suggesting that I should become an overseer in the parish. They realised, as I expect it was realised in the
    1032
    parish that the hon. Member for Frome spoke about, that on the whole it would be better to confine the selection of overseers to that class that were representative of the majority on the parish councils in the so-called backward areas. I would also suggest to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Windsor (Mr. Somerville) in relation to the term "backward areas," and the thought that we are making a mistake by so referring to the people who live in those areas, that I fancy, he does not fully apprehend the situation.
    What is going to happen is this: In the rural areas, in those areas where the parish councils exist at the present time, there is a growing consciousness among the farm labourers, the workers, and the professional people that for years past their interest has been neglected by the overseers representing the landed classes. The new system proposed in connection with the Amendment now placed before us is not going to help them, for, after all, that new system, as the House has been reminded in an interjection, is nothing more than an extension of the Soviet system. It is not a democratic system at all in the sense in which democracy is usually accepted in this House. It is a system whereby you propose that parish councillors shall hide their responsibility behind the bigger authority which they are going to advise regarding the rating of the area which they represent. They will never be able to be called to account-by the area which they represent because that area will never be able to bring home to them their responsibility for their actions or for the action that ultimately is taken by the rating authority to which they will give their evidence. If we could be sure that the authority that is going to be responsible for rating and all its members could ultimately come to election where the people who are rating would have a chance of giving their opinions thereon, then we might be in a situation ultimately to get the right sort of rating authority. I insist, as other hon. Members have insisted, that you have in the yielding of the Minister to the importunity of the demands that have been made to him another example of legislation designed in the interests of a class. All they are thinking of in this Measure, as in most Measures, is to back up the wealth of those who already possess it, while you will continue to place other burdens upon the shoulders of the com-

    1033
    munity, upon those who are less able to bear them. I can assure the hon. Gentleman, who has just spoken, that the growing intelligence of the farm labourers, the professional people in these areas called backward, in a little while will bring us to the point where they, too, will be supporting the stand that the Labour party has made upon this issue.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: I rise for the purpose of asking a question or two. I want to know whether these co-opted gentlemen are going to have votes on the rating authority?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood)The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood) indicated assent.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: That makes it worse then. That makes it more reactionary than it was supposed the Government dare suggest, after having spoken about democracy and an election system bringing the matter upon a more equitable basis. Persons, it would appear, are to be co-opted and placed in a position whereby they cannot be called to account, yet they have to cast votes upon questions which affect the economic welfare of the whole parish. That, to my mind, is something which one would not have thought that even this Government would dare to do. The description given by my hon. Friends who have just spoken as the defenders and protectors of property seems to meet the case. Hon. Members have been telling us that it is seditious to take about the class war. They are proving that there is a class war. We shall continue to say what we feel on this matter outside as well as inside the House. I want to say to the hon. Gentleman who spoke last, the Member for Windsor (Mr. Somerville), that he need not worry about the appeal which we shall make to the countryside. We shall go in the countryside and exactly to that type of person whose interests will not be protected under the new proposal made by this Conservative Government.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I have not been able to listen to the whole of this Debate since four o'clock, but I have listened intermittently to various of the speakers on this important question of what shall be the authority to determine the manner in which property shall be valued and rates levied. I happen to be a person who
    1034
    served on one of the old assessment committees in the county of London before the borough councils were instituted. My experience on that assessment committee drives me to the conclusion that if this Amendment is carried we will have the same kind of business that one got on the old assessment committees. The procedure that was followed ended up with making as complete a hash of the business as possible. The big property owners in those days took part in the work of administering the Poor Law. You would find them always taking care that they had the qualification. If they could get elected, the one committee on which any of them ever served was the assessment committee.
    The old London dock authority put their chief constable on the board of guardians at one time, for no other reason than that his friends—undertakers, parsons and doctors—Freemasons most of them were—should take good care that this representative of what was called the bigger ratepayers should be the chairman of that committee. Nothing more corrupt has ever been seen in public life than the manner in which the old assessment committees elected in that fashion did their work. We heard speeches in the early part of the evening about the dangers of allowing people like myself to become, through the borough councils, the assessment committees of the districts. We were supposed to have some particular interest in doing some particularly dastardly thing or the other. Now the same people come forward to plead that the people in each village shall determine, or have a voice in determining, how their village shall be valued. In the discussions on one of the old Home Rule Bills there was great controversy over whether certain Members should remain in this House or not, and we heard arguments as to the absurdity of having Members in to vote on Irish questions and out when it was a question of voting on affairs concerning Britain. These committees are now to be made to put on the committee people who will come there to represent various interests, and there will be a majority deciding one scale of valuation one day, and next day the committee will reverse it for another valuation. There will be nothing like equal valuation over the whole countryside. It is about the most reactionary thing that could be done.

    1035
    All of us ought to want to get the best, fairest and most equitable system of valuation. Speaking for myself, and not for my colleagues here, and certainly not for hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, I say I am not in favour of the Soviet system. I, personally, would prefer that national men should be appointed to do this job. I would like to see the country split up into a dozen districts, and properly-paid officials, responsible to this House, doing this job of valuing the country. It would be infinitely better and cheaper than having all this multitude of people. I do not think the House realises the cost in public money of carrying out the valuation in the piece-meal fashion in which it is now done, and I cannot understand the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Somerville) talking, as he has done to-night, about the importance of the people in a particular village having a say in the matter. I personally do not want to have a say in trying to get the house I live in valued at less than my neighbour's, and if I possessed property I hope I should have public spirit enough not to want that valued at less than the value of my neighbour's property. I should not want to do that job myself, but to see the valuation made by independent people appointed by the nation. The idea now is that everybody is to have a voice in it, but earlier in the evening hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite were advancing an entirely opposite argument, and therefore I hope my friends on these benches will oppose this to the bitter end.
    Hon. and right hon. Members opposite tell us what will happen to us in the country side, but I have more faith in the ordinary agricultural worker than I have in them. I am perfectly certain that any gathering of labourers in a village would desire that the business of assessment should not be done by persons who own property themselves, but by some independent people. I do not understand why the hon. and learned Gentleman who is in charge of the Bill just now, or his leader, having taken a sound and sensible step in the right direction, propose now to go back on it. They must know that this proposition will create confusion. There will be some villages, joined together, which will be assessed tinder one scheme
    1036
    of valuation, and in the same county another group of villages will be assessed in an entirely different manner, simply because of the in-and-out members. I notice that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health looks very puzzled.
    Sir K. WOOD: No, I am not.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Oh. you are not. I am glad to hear it. You look worried, anyhow. I am quite sure that if this were submitted to your undefiled judgment you would be on our side in this matter, because both you and your leader do know, you have had experience, and you know that the business of assessment and valuation in London is done infinitely better than it ever was done before. You also know that if this Amendment be carried we shall have confusion worse confounded in all counties. Therefore, even at this late hour, I think you ought to throw the reactionaries over, and come over on this side and help us to defeat these people who are leading you back into the paths of mediæval Toryism.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Are we not to have any reply at all from the Government? We have been discussing this Amendment since 20 minutes past seven, and, except when the Minister of Health stood at that box and proposed this Amendment in about 50 words, we have had no statement at all from the Government, although members of their own party below the Gangway have been putting specific points, not only their own points, but those advanced by the Rural District Councils Association, who say they have not been consulted. I think it is an insult to the intelligence of the House that we should be asked to go to a Division on this Clause without a reply from the Government.
    Sir K. WOOD: I will gladly make such observations as I can on this matter, because Members will agree that I have no intention of doing anything but consult their convenience, but I must confess that I am anxious that we should make such progress as we can, because we have a good deal to do to-night if we are to get away at a reasonable hour. With the best wish in the world to appreciate the arguments of hon. Gentlemen opposite, I must say that the sole reason for accepting this Amendment

    1037
    is to have the benefit of the experience of men who have been engaged in this work for many years. I have no wish to make a provocative speech in any sense of the word, but I venture to say to hon. Gentlemen opposite that they need not feel that any of those principles which they have been enunciating for some time this evening are in any way threatened by this Amendment. Where men have been engaged in this work for many years and desire to go upon these particular committees for the parish in which they are concerned it is not unreasonable that we should have the benefit of their experience and knowledge. There is no fear whatever, in my judgment, that any of these adverse influences of which we have heard will affect these particular committees, because if hon. Members will look at the Bill they will see that the function is to rest with the authorities set out in Clause 1, Sub-section (1), and the mere fact that we co-opt-if you like to put it so-two men who have had experience in the particular parish for many years ought not to lead hon. Members to fear any of the consequences of which they have spoken. I think it will be a decided advantage to add two men who have had actual experience. That is all this Amendment means and I think what is suggested will undoubtedly turn out for the benefit of all concerned. In this matter we are endeavouring to bring in on this question everybody concerned who can give assistance. We say that two overseers from each particular parish should be members of the Commission when particular matters come up affecting their parish.
    Mr. KELLY: I should not have risen but for the observations made by the hon.
    Member in charge of the Bill. The hon. Member stated that it would be an advantage if they could have one or two of those members on the Committee who had had experience. May I point out that there is nothing in this Amendment to indicate that the people co-opted will be people who have had experience either as councillors or overseers. This proposal suggests putting on to the Committee two persons who may not have had the slightest experience and who may be added to the Committee, as we know from experience, because they are friends of those already on the councils. Often enough the people co-opted are persons who overturn much of the work the other councillors have done and they have not then to face the public, because they are not responsible to anybody and immediately they have clone all the harm it is possible for them to do, they can leave those who are elected to face the music before the electors. Everything which has been said by the hon. Member in charge of the Bill indicates clearly that we must oppose this proposal because it is one which we are surprised to find the Government accepting at this time of day.
    Mr. CECIL WILSON: I do not understand how it is possible to expect all these people to come together from enormous areas, and I do not see how there will be any possible advantage in what is now proposed. This Amendment will cause an immense amount of confusion, and for that reason we shall oppose it.
    Question put, "That the proposed words, as amended, be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 269; Noes, 119.

    Division No. 387.]

    AYES.

    [8.30 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Albery, Irving James

    Blundell, F. N.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Cassels, J. D.

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Amery, Rt. Hon Leopold C. M. S.

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Apsley, Lord

    Brass, Captain W.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

    Christie, J. A.

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Clayton, G. C.

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Berry, Sir George

    Burman, J. B.

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Cope, Major William

    Couper, J. B.

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

    Radford, E. A.

    Crook, C. W.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Raine, W.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Rawson, Alfred Cooper

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Jacob, A. E.

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Dixey, A. C.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Drewe, C.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Duckworth, John

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Rye, F. G.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Salmon, Major I.

    Edwards, John H (Accrington)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Elliot, Captain Walter E.

    Knex, Sir Alfred

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    England, Colonel A.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-V.)

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Sandon, Lord

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Savery, S. S.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

    Looker, Herbert William

    Skelton, A. N.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Lord. Walter Greaves-

    Smith. R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Finburgh, S.

    Lougher, L.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Fleming, D. P.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Smithers, Waldron

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Forrest, W.

    MacAndrew, Charles Glen

    Spender Clay, Colonel H.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Macintyre, Ian

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    McLean, Major A.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Steel. Major Samuel Strang

    Ganzoni, Sir John.

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Storry Deans. R.

    Gates, Percy.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Gee, Captain R.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Meller, R. J.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Merriman, F. B.

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Soff, Sir Park

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Grace, John

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Tinne, J. A.

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Grotrian, H, Brent.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Waddington, R.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Murchison, C. K.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Neville, R. J.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Hanbury, C.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Harland, A.

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Wells, S. R.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Oakley, T.

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth Kennington)

    O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Haslen., Henry C.

    Owen, Major G.

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Pease, William Edwin

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Perring, William George

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Pielou, D. P.

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

    Pilcher, G.

    Holland, Sir Arthur

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Homan, C. W. J.

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Captain Viscount Curzon and

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Preston, William

    Captain Margesson.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Barr, J.

    Clowes, S.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Batey, Joseph

    Cluse, W. S.

    Alexander, A. v. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Broad, F. A.

    Compton, Joseph

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Connolly, M.

    Baker, Walter

    Buchanan, G.

    Cove, W. G.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Cape, Thomas

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Barnes, A.

    Charleton, W. C.

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    1040

    1041

    Dalton, Hugh

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Kennedy, T.

    Snell, Hairy

    Dennison, R.

    Lansbury, George

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Duncan, C.

    Lee, F.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Dunnico, H.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Lowth, T.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Fenby, T. D.

    Lunn, William

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Mackinder, W.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Gillett, George M.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Thurtle, E.

    Gosling, Harry

    March, S.

    Townend, A. E.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Montague, Frederick

    Trevelyan, Ht. Hon. C. P.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Varley, Frank B.

    Greenall, T.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Viant, S. P.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Potts, John S.

    Warne, G. H.

    Groves, T.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Watson. W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Riley, Ben

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

    Ritson, J.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

    Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Westwood, J.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Rose, Frank H.

    Whiteley, W.

    Hardie, George D.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Scurr, John

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Windson, Walter

    Hirst, G. H.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Sitch, Charles H.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Smillie, Robert

    Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Hayes.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    CLAUSE 2.—(Levy of, and provisions as to, general rate.)
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move, in page 4, line 20, after the word "hereditament," to insert the words
    "including unoccupied land and such ungotten minerals as are not owned in conjunction with the surface."
    This is an Amendment to Sub-section (8) of Clause 2, which at present reads as follows:
    "Every hereditament in the rating area, whether liable to be rated or not, shall be included in every rate in the rate book."
    We were told in Committee that the word "hereditament" included unoccupied land and severed minerals, but we were also told that the register of property in the rate book did not include unoccupied land, and that it rarely, if ever, included severed minerals. We desire by this Amendment to ensure that the rate book shall be a genuine, truthful record of the fixed property in the area, whether rated or not. If these words are not inserted, it will mean that those two forms of property will in all probability be left out of the record, and if we assume, as I hope we may, that in some time to come we change our basis of rating and levy some rates, at all events, on unoccupied land and ungotten minerals, then we must obviously desire to have our record of the property, and the owner, stated as fully as possible in the rate book, so that we may know what property is available,
    1042
    even though we may not know what its value is, and even though it is not at the present time assessed for rates.
    If hon. Members will refer to Clause 70, which deals with definitions, they will find "hereditament" referred there:—
    "'Hereditament' means any lands, tenements, hereditaments or property which are or may become liable to any rate in respect of which the valuation list is by this Act made conclusive."
    There, the definition of "hereditament" includes any property which may become liable to any rate, and, therefore, I think it is clear, apart altogether from previous definitions of the word "hereditament," that these elements of real estate are included in it. But I submit that it would be certainly desirable that we should have this sub-section perfectly clear on the matter, in order that we may get uniformity throughout all the new valuation areas as to the statements required in the rate book.
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip): The right hon. Gentleman told the House he was informed in Committee that "hereditament" included unoccupied land and severed minerals. I have looked at the record of what was said in the Committee and I think he is in error on that point. What he was told was that "hereditament" would include unoccupied land, but the statement was not made that hereditament would include severed minerals.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is it not included in that definition?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: In my opinion, the definition in the Bill does not include what I understand the right hon. Gentleman means by ungotten minerals, and it certainly is not intended to include ungotten minerals.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I remember now the hon. and learned Gentleman told the Committee that ungotten minerals, where they were not severed from the surface, were a hereditament.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: It was stated that a hereditament, which included minerals which had not been severed or reserved, would be valued on the footing of everything that was included in the hereditament. "Hereditament" in that sense would include the minerals below the land or house. But the question to-day which the House is asked to consider is whether not only unoccupied land, but what are called ungotten minerals shall be included in the rate book. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree that unoccupied land to-day is included in the rate book.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Always?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: It ought to be and. so far as I know, it always is, unless it is omitted by inadvertence, in the same way that unoccupied houses are included, and for the very good reason that unoccupied land and houses may at any moment require to be rated. At any rate, it is the law that they should be. Certainly under this Bill unoccupied land and houses will be upon the rate book, therefore the substance of this Amendment is the proposal that what are called ungotten minerals shall be included in the rate book. It is an academic question because, even supposing ungotten minerals are included, I do not suppose it will be suggested that they have an annual value or that they can be estimated in any way so as to be the subject of a hypothetical lease. That being so, the question the House is asked to consider is purely an academic one and the right hon. Gentleman is desirous that ungotten minerals should be included in the rate book with a view to the day when the whole of our rating system will be altered. I suppose what he really means is with a view to
    1044
    the day when a Socialist Government is in power. Perhaps I may say again, as Mr. Speaker said a few minutes ago, Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. When the whole rating system is altered then will be the time to make any apposite alterations in Acts of Parliament relating to rating. Until it is so altered, as it may some day be, it does not appear necessary to include ungotten minerals in the rate book. The effect would be simply to litter up the rate book with something so hypothetical, so indefinite, that it would be exceedingly difficult for anyone to know exactly what was to be put into it. It may be said that ungotten minerals have a capital value and people will buy and sell them, but that is not to say that they have any annual value. The fact is that ungotten minerals is a phrase which does not convey any definite idea. Seams of coal are known to stretch for hundreds of miles, across the whole of the land possibly, though in some cases at such a great depth that, practically speaking, the scam might be nonexistent. When does a mineral become an ungotten mineral? Does it become ungotten if a pit is sunk to that seam in any part of its course across Great Britain, or does an ungotten mineral mean a piece of coal that is still in the ground?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD Colonel WEDGWOOD indicated assent.
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL: Ungotten minerals are rated effectively as long as they are part of an undertaking which is in actual operation.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: It is based upon output.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: There may be certain ways of arriving at the way in which a colliery undertaking should be rated, hut, in substance, ungotten coal to-day is rated, true on a certain basis, when it is deemed to be part of an undertaking which has been created by the sinking of a pit to the coal, and any coal which is properly part of the undertaking, whether it is gotten or ungotten, whether it is still in the seam or has been opened up or is waiting to be opened up, is rated.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: No, it is not rated when it is not opened up.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The right hon. Gentleman is wrong in saying

    1045
    it is not rated when it is not being worked. If you have a colliery to-day in which a pit is sunk to a seam of coal and that colliery is actually working the seam of coal, that colliery is rated upon a certain basis, which has been adopted as the only way in which collieries can be rated, and the whole of the coal, therefore, which is part of that colliery undertaking in truth and in law is deemed to be rated. It is true it is rated upon the results of the undertaking.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: No, on the output.
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL: The output is merely the measure of the way in which the whole of the undertaking is to be rated.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The hon. and gallant Gentleman knows perfectly well that there need be no profit at all. The rates are levied upon the output.
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL: The right hon. Gentleman is confounding what is rated with the measure of the rate-That is a distinction which anyone familiar with the rating of colliery undertakings will be well aware of. The measure is one thing, the thing that is rated is another. What is rated is the coal ungotten which is part and parcel of the colliery undertaking. The measure of the rating is the output of the colliery. Having regard to the academic nature of the proposal and to the very elusive and unintelligible phrase that is included in the Amendment I hope the House will reject it and think it is unnecessary, and even if the idea was couched in appropriate, language it would serve no useful purpose to insert it in this Clause.
    Mr. WEBB: The hon. and learned Gentleman has not quite cleared up an obscurity at any rate in my mind. What is here in question is not any proposal to alter the law of rating or anything of that sort. What we are trying to secure is that all hereditaments which are or may be liable to be rated—it only means when they are unoccupied—should appear in the Rate Book whether at the moment they are liable to pay rates or not. The simplest case, of course, is that of unoccupied land and buildings. Everyone admits that they ought to appear in the Rate Book even though they are empty, because though they are not at the
    1046
    moment liable to pay rates, as they are rateable when they are occupied they must appear in the Rate Book even though for the time being nothing is collected in respect of them. There is no doubt about that, I assume, in the law, but unfortunately there is an inequality in practice and the right hon. Gentleman must know that there are cases in which, perhaps by inadvertence, unoccupied land has been left out of the Rate Book and the purpose of the Amendment, so far as unoccupied land is concerned, is one which I think the Government might consider for the sake of clearness. Nowhere in the Bill, as I understand it, even in the definition Clause any more than in this Clause, is there any instruction given to the rating authority that they are to include unoccupied land and buildings. Would it be altogether objectionable to put in a Clause including unoccupied lands in order to make sure that by inadvertence those hereditaments are not omitted, as they have been sometimes in the past and as I believe they are sometimes at present? I appeal to the hon. and learned Gentleman whether something cannot be done to make that clear also with regard to ungotten minerals. I do not think the Solicitor-General dealt with the point quite candidly. "Ungotten minerals" is a phrase that applies to minerals in the ground which are known to exist, or may be supposed to exist. No one would suggest that a mere hypothetical seam of coal which is supposed to exist should be necessarily brought into the Rate Book. The Solicitor-General has said that the coal that is ungotten, but is, nevertheless, part of the freehold property, whether ii is worked or not, is included in the assessment as part of the value of the freehold. That is clear, I assume, whether the minerals are worked or not. It is clear that as soon as a shaft has been sunk and the colliery enterprise is in existence the coal in the pit, if it is ungotten, is included in the assessable value of that hereditament. What the Solicitor-General has not dealt with is the fact that when that pit is not working, although it may formerly have worked, no rates are paid in respect of that hereditament. Is it or is it not intended that that pit, we will call it a temporarily disused pit— whether or not it will ever be used again must always be obscure—shall still appear on the Rate Book?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The right hon. Gentleman must bear in mind the distinction between something which has paid rates and something which is not on the rate book. A pit which has been sunk so as to make a colliery undertaking, is put into the rate book. It is a hereditament which can be visualised and described, and can be put into the rate book. If it ceases to be worked and has no output, it ceases to pay rates, but it is in the rate book, because it is something that can be grasped and described.
    9.0 P.M.
    Mr. WEBB: I am thankful to the Solicitor-General. I am proceeding step by step. He has said that the ungotten mineral, that is, the mineral which is not being got and perhaps never will be got, in that hereditament will, nevertheless, be put into the rate book, or, in other words, the hereditament, the freehold, the land in which that mineral exists, will be put into the rate book and will remain in the rate book, even though the colliery is disused. I ask him to go a step further and to consider a neighbouring seam which has not yet begun to be worked, and in which no shaft has been sunk, but which has been severed from the freehold for a price. We want to know whether that is a hereditament or not within the meaning of this Bill. He gave us a good deal of information on other points, but he did not give us an answer on that point. Does that hereditament come within the meaning of this Bill? I am not quite sure whether he is prepared to give an answer, but I think the House is entitled to know whether or not it is included. He said that the ungotten minerals would not be described, but I would remind him that some gentlemen in his own profession will have described these particular ungotten minerals at great length and with great particularity.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL The SOLICITOR-GENERAL indicated dissent.
    Mr. WEBB: Yes. In the document of sale. These ungotten minerals have been severed from the freehold, and it must be within the knowledge of the Solicitor-General, and probably he has drawn up some of these documents of sale, or he will have seen some of them, which are paid for at a high price. I suggest to him that these ungotten minerals which are severed from the freehold and are
    1048
    sold by the owner of the freehold to someone else in order that presently they may be worked, are in existence, and ought to be included in the rate book, even though under the present arrangement there is no actual liability for rates. These are hereditaments which will presently become liable to rates, and it seems to me, therefore, that they ought to be included. He says that they were sold for a capital price. He must know that they are much more often sold at an annual rental, a dead rent, a fixed rent
    I would ask the House to consider the case of coal which is known to exist, and which has been sold by the owner to someone else. Therefore, that mineral is no longer included in the freehold of the surface that remains with the owner, because it is a severed part of the hereditament, and it is described in the document of sale, which gives protection against anyone encroaching upon it. It is known to be there and in respect of it an annual rental is being paid. I want to know, and the House ought to know, whether that severed mineral, described and identified, and the subject of an annual dead rent—which dead rent is not included in the freehold of the surface— is a hereditament liable to be rated. At the present time it is not in the rate book. Is it within the definition of hereditament in this Bill? If not, is it the intention of the Government that that hereditament, that mineral which has been described and identified and has actually been conveyed, and which is being paid for by a dead rent, shall be inserted in the rate book, whether or not, according to the system of collecting the rates on coal mines, any rate ought to be collected in respect of that dead rent?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I am not very hopeful of making my meaning clear. If there is a colliery undertaking that has sunk one pit or six pits—[An HON. MEMBER: "Or no pits!"]—I do not know what is meant by a colliery undertaking that has sunk no pits. That is, clearly, not a colliery undertaking. [HON. MEMBERS: "There are such!"] We are speaking about two different things. By a colliery undertaking I mean an undertaking which has undertaken the process of sinking a shaft and raising coal to the surface to sell. A colliery undertaking constantly leases seams of coal which are

    1049
    in the hands of different owners scattered over different places which come within the ambit or the fringe of its workings. The colliery company constituted, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, agree to pay a dead rent which would be a rental receivable by the owner of the minerals until the time comes when he will be remunerated by the customary method of receiving royalties according to the tonnage of the coal dug out. The position is that the coal has not been reached by the undertaking which has been working, and meanwhile the colliery undertaking is paying a dead rent, or a sleeping rent as it is called, for the coal which has not yet been worked. The whole of the coal area of the undertaking is thus part of the hereditament and it is rated and the measure of the rating, by a convention which has long been followed by rating authorities, is the amount of the coal which is brought out of the undertaking, out of the one pit or the six pits. The colliery company may have half a dozen pits in the area of coal which it has least or only one pit, but in law you have the whole of it rated as a hereditament, though the measure of the rates is the amount of the coal got out of the one pit or out of the six pits.
    Mr. WEBB: That is satisfactory so far as it goes, but how about the undertaking that has acquired the coal but has not yet begun to sink the shaft? It may be some years before it does so. What is to happen in the meantime?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The sinking of the shaft is a pure question of convenience and economy in reaching a particular pit or seam. It may be necessary because of cost or because of the distance of the coal from the existing pit.
    Mr. WEBB: I am not talking about an existing pit. Suppose you have a colliery company which acquires coal underground and then changes its mind and lets 10 years go by before it sinks a pit, and meanwhile pays a dead rental. Is that or is it not a hereditament?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I have never heard of any colliery company in that position. If I have not made my meaning plain I will try to do so. A colliery company which has not sunk a pit has not, in my opinion, a hereditament for the purpose of rating. As
    1050
    long as it is merely on paper it is not a hereditament, but when the company begins to sink a pit then there is a hereditament to be rated according to the ordinary measure of rating. The hon. Gentleman contemplates a state of things which I do not know to exist. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is frequent"!] I have some knowledge of colliery undertakings, and I do not know of any colliery undertaking which companies acquire, and then let lie by never attempting to work the coal.
    Mr. W. ADAMSON: May I point out that the Amendment of my right hon. Friend deals with unoccupied land, and such ungotten minerals as are not owned in conjunction with the surface. What frequently occurs is that a landlord sells the surface and retains the minerals. The object of my right hon. Friend's Amendment is that the minerals should be put in at a valuation.
    Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN: How many years can a parcel of severed minerals be held by a company who have no intention of working this?
    Mr. ADAMSON: The severed minerals mentioned by my right hon. Friend may be held by a mining company, or the landlord sells the surface of the ground and retains the minerals, and retains them for a considerable number of years, and there is no trace of their value in the Register, because it is a value which is not measured by the rate put upon the minerals worked in the vicinity. In many instances we have owners of land selling the land and retaining the minerals, and in all these cases, unless the Amendment of my right hon. Friend is accepted, there is a considerable amount of minerals as to which no record can be traced, and we will lose sight of a considerable amount of mineral value in the country. This is not an isolated case, but it is quite common for the landlord to sell the surface and retain the minerals in his own hands for a considerable number of years.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I did not say that that was not common.
    Mr. ADAMSON: If the Solicitor-General admits that, surely it is a reasonable proposition that the value should find a place on the register, and be ready on the day when the minerals

    1051
    are worked by the man who is still owner of it, or it might be sold to a colliery company to work it. Surely it is only right to have that registered as a valuable form of property. You have already admitted unoccupied houses are land on the register, though they are not rated so long as they remain unoccupied. If it is right to put unoccupied houses on land on the register, it is also right to put on the register the value of severed minerals. Where the landlord has sold the site and retained the minerals in his own hand, it is right to put a certain value on the minerals, and that value should be on the register. If not, in many instances we will lose all sight of the considerable amount of wealth in this country.
    Mr. MARDY JONES: May I give an illustration on this particular Amendment of how very important it is that these particulars should be inserted? All over the country, wherever minerals are worked, you have the system of dead rents. I will give the Solicitor-General an instance in my own division of a parish in which a certain landlord leased a mineral undertaking to one of the richest colliery owners 60 years ago. That colliery owner had to agree to give £5C0 a year rent for the right to work this mineral whenever he desired in the future. It has happened that it never was convenient or profitable for this particular colliery owner to develop this particular mineral undertaking, with the result that in this particular case the landlord has received £500 a year for the past 60 years as dead rent alone for minerals that have not yet been reached. I would say that that is typical of a, number of similar cases throughout Great Britain and that considerable sums of money in annual value have been held up in this way. In this particular case the farmer who occupies and cultivates the surface of the land over the mineral pays rates on the agricultural value of the land on the surface, and that is the only record which we have of that land in the rate book. The value of the dead rent is entirely ignored and is unrecorded. If this Amendment were carried the record would be correct, but mineral undertakings of this character are held up in Great Britain, and the amount which they represent would add considerably to the total
    1052
    value of the mineral in such cases. I press this point and hope that the Government will consider it. Dead rents are not the only mineral values that go unrated and unrecorded in this way. In addition, considerable sums of money are paid annually out of the working costs of the coal industry, the iron ore industry, and all underground workings, for way-leaves, air-leaves and so on. The surface owner claims, theoretically, the right for the passage of air from his property to another. All these cases should be recorded in accordance with the Amendment. It is a national scandal that this Government neglects to rate these mineral properties as a means of helping to meet the annual expenses of the country.
    Mr. SCURR: As I listened to the speech of the right hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb), I noticed that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health was nodding his head with approval, and that leads me to hope that the Amendment will be accepted.
    Sir K. WOOD: What I assented to was the reference to unoccupied land. I do not think there is any question about that.
    Mr. SCURR: I came to this Debate with an open mind, intending to find out how I ought to vote. After the lucid explanation given by the right hon. Member for Seaham and by other Members who have a knowledge of the mining industry, I had no doubt as to what my vote should be, if it be given on the merits of the Measure and not according to party ties. Against lucidity on the one side we have had the obscurantism of the Solicitor-General, whose explanation left us more and more in the dark.
    Mr. THURTLE: I would like to put the analogy between this case of the severed ungotten minerals and the case of undeveloped real estate. You can have a real estate company owning land and refraining from making use of that land for a number of years, because it believes that at the end of a given period the land will be of enhanced value. You have exactly the same kind of thing operating in the case of a colliery company owning ungotten minerals. As has been stated, you have a company owning the ungotten mineral rights over a certain piece of land and paying a dead rental with respect to those minerals. It may be that

    1053
    the colliery company will decide that it is not profitable to extract the minerals, this year or next year or even five or 10 years hence. The assumption is that the market for coal will be better in five or 10 years, because consumption will have increased and production decreased. That, of course, would mean that in five or 10 years' time coal would fetch a much higher price. The company, therefore, deliberately refrains from extracting the coal from underground. In a case like that the annual dead rental for the value of the ungotten minerals should be recorded on the rate book.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSON: What the Solicitor-General has told the House may be all right, but in practice in the Durham coal area things are done differently. There the only minerals rated are those that are worked. We cannot tell to a
    million pounds what coal is lying handy. The ungotten minerals are not on the rate book.
    Mr. ATTLEE: We are discussing the question of severed minerals, and there was one point in the Solicitor-General's statement about which I was not clear. The only point is as to the measure of value. The annual value is expressed very often in a dead rent. We have there a hereditament with all the qualities which enable us to rate it. We have not even to go to anything hypothetical. There is an annual value, and I cannot see why it should not come into the records.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 125; Noes, 285.

    Division No. 388.]

    AYES.

    [9.23 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

    Salter, Or. Alfred

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Scurr, John

    Baker, J. (Wolverhamton, Bilston)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Baker, Walter

    Hardle, George D.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Sarker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Barnes, A.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Barr, J.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Smillie, Robert

    Batey, Joseph

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Broad, F. A.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Hirst, w. (Bradford, South)

    Snell, Harry

    Buchanan, G.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Cape, Thomas

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Charleton, H. C.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Taylor, R. A.

    Clowes, S.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Compton, Joseph

    Jones, T I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Thurtle, E.

    Connolly, M.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Townend, A. E.

    Cove, W. G.

    Kennedy, T.

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Cowan, D'. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lansbury, George

    Varley, Frank B.

    Crawfurd, Major H. E.

    Lawson, John James

    Viant, S. P.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lee, F.

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Warne. G. H.

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lowth, T.

    Watson, W. M, (Dunfermline)

    Dennison, R.

    Lunn, William

    Watts-Morgan. Lt. Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Duncan, C.

    Mackinder, W.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Dunnico, H.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

    March, S.

    Westwood, J.

    Fenby, T. D.

    Montague, Frederick

    Whiteley, W.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Gillett, George M.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gosling, Harry

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Owen, Major G.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Greenall, T.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Windsor, Walter

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Potts, John S.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Groves, T.

    Riley, Ben

    Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ritson, J.

    Charles Edwards.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Albery, Irving James

    Apsley, Lord

    Banks. Reginald Mitchell

    Alexander. E. E. (Leyton)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Meller, R. J.

    Bentinck, Lord Kenry Cavendish

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Merriman F. B.

    Berry, Sir George

    Gates, Percy

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Gee, Captain R.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Blundell, F. N.

    Goft, Sir Park

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Grace, John

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

    Grant, J. A.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Murchison, C. K.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Neville, R. J.

    Brass, Captain W.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A (Brecon & Rad.)

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Hanbury, C.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Oakley, T.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Harland, A.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Brown, Brig.- Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Pease, William Edwin

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Burman, J. B.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Perring, William George

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Keneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Henn, sir Sydney H.

    Pielou, D. P.

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Pilcher, G.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Cassels, J. D.

    Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Preston, William

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Radford, E. A.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Raine, W.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

    Rawson, Alfred Cooper

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Holland, Sir Arthur

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Christie, J. A.

    Homan, C. W. J.

    Remer, J. R.

    Churchman Sir Arthur C.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Clayton, G. C.

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Rye, F. G.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Cope, Major William

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Couper J. B.

    Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dtworth, Putnev)

    Courtauld Major J. S.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Crook, C. W.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Crocke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Jacob, A. E.

    Santan, Lord

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Savery, S. S.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Davidson, J. (Hertl'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Kinloch Cooke, Sir Clement

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Kinox. Sir Alfred

    Skelton, A. N.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Dixey, A. C.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Spender Clay, Colonel H.

    Drewe, C.

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Duckworth, John

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Elliot, Captain Walter E.

    Looker, Herbert William

    Storry Deans, R.

    Elveden, Viscount

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    England, Colonel A.

    Lougher, L.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Stuart, Hon J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Lynn, Sir Robert J.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    MacAndrew, Charles Glen

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Falls, Sir Bertram G.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

    Macintyre, Ian

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Fermoy, Lord

    McLean, Major A.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Finburgh, S.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Fleming, D. P.

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Waddington, R.

    Forrest, W.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    1056

    1057

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Wells. S. R.

    Womersley, W. J

    Captain Hacking and Lord

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Stanley.

    White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    CLAUSE 3.—(Levy of, and provisions as to, special rate in rural district.)
    Amendments made: In page 4, line 35, leave out the word "parish" and insert instead thereof the words "part of the area."
    In page 4, line 40, leave out the word "parish" and insert instead thereof the words "part of the area."—[Sir K. Wood.]
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Might I get your ruling now, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, on this knotty point, as to the Amendment standing in my own name and of the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) and the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley) also the Amendments standing in the names of the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) and other hon. Members—why all these Amendments and the four subsequent ones and, I regret to say two or three dozen others further down on the Paper, are out, of order. I understand, Sir, that they are held to be out of order because, if they wore carried, they would impose a heavier burden on certain ratepayers and that, under some Standing Order, is held to be outside the powers of the House on the Report stage. I ask you to inform us on what ground they are held to be out of order. Further, I would ask you whether, seeing that this Bill is a Rating Bill dealing with the question of increasing and reducing the burdens of rates, that Standing Order applies to a Rating Bill as it would to an ordinary Bill dealing with matters not directly connected with rating? In particular, I would draw your attention to Clause 24, which relieves machinery owners from the burden of rating. You are aware, Sir, that if you reduce the burden of rates on some ratepayers you thereby automatic ally increase it on some other ratepayer?, and I would ask you whether, in view of these facts, this Bill ought not to be, by its very nature, exempted from that Standing Order which forbids us on Report to alter or to increase the burden upon any ratepayer.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): There is a very old Rule of the House that on Report no local burden can be imposed or increased. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consults the work of Erskine May, page 418, he will find this Rule duly set out. It makes no difference whether the Bill is, a Bill for rating, or a Bill for some other public service in which burdens are put upon the rates. I remember an incident during the discussions on the Education Bill of 1902 when this principle was affirmed against the Government. With regard to Clause 24, no doubt Mr. Speaker or, in his absence, whoever is in his place, will rule upon that matter when it is reached.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: My point was that this was not an Education Bill, but a Bill the whole function of which was to change the burden of the rates, and that therefore this Bill should be exempt from such a ruling. I do not think there are any precedents for a Bill dealing with rating and valuation being treated as a normal Bill under your ruling.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There is no difference, whether the purpose of the Bill concerns rating or whether the purpose of the Bill concerns some other public service whereby a charge will be put upon rates. It is- a very old Rule that no local burden can be imposed or increased on the Report stage.

    CLAUSE 4.—(Operation and incidence of rate.)
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON: I beg to move, in page 5, line 22, after the word "commencing," to insert the words
    "in the case of the first general rate made under this Part of this Act for any rating area being a rural district on the appointed day, in the case of the first general rate so made for any other rating area on the date on winch the first new valuation list made under Part II of this Act for the area comes into operation, and in the case of any subsequent general rate."
    This Amendment is largely of a drafting character. The Clause, as it stands fixes the period for which a general rate can be

    1059
    levied in the ordinary course, but it omits to make special provision for the first general rate to be made under this part of the Act, and the Amendment seeks to put that right by providing that in the case of the first general rate for any rural district, the first rate is to be levied as from the appointed day, and in the case of the first general rate made for any other rating area as from the date on which the first new valuation list comes into operation.
    Sir DOUGLAS NEWTON: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir K. WOOD: I shall be happy to accept this Amendment, which puts right a slip made in the drafting of the Bill, and unless the alteration were made there would be some difficulty in putting it into practice.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I should like some information from somebody about the Amendment. We have not even had any information from the Mover.
    Sir K. WOOD: I did not desire to take up time in giving an explanation as I thought the purpose of the Amendment was apparent. If my right hon. and gallant Friend will look at Sub-section (2) of the Clause as it now stands, he will see that it provides that every general rate shall start as from the termination of the preceding general rate. We are advised that if this were strictly interpreted there could never be a first general rate at all, and it is to correct that slip that the Amendment is intended.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 5.—(Amendment of Rate.)
    Mr. SANDEMAN ALLEN: I beg to move in page 6, line 32, to leave out the words "any such amendment as aforesaid" and to insert instead thereof the words:
    "under the foregoing provisions any amendment which is not necessitated by an alteration of the valuation list and the effect of which is to alter the amount appearing in the rate as chargeable in respect of any hereditament."
    The reason for this Amendment is that the wording of the Clause as it stands goes a little too far and would include every kind of alteration such as corrections and so forth, and also agreed alterations and alterations resulting from
    1060
    judgments—all of which would automatically come within this provision as to giving notice. The whole point and intention of the Clause is to protect owners, so that they may receive proper notice of any alteration of the amount chargeable in respect of any hereditament.
    Mr. S. ROBERTS: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir K. WOOD: I shall be happy to accept this Amendment. The Clause deals with alterations of a rate including the correction of any clerical mistakes that may happen, and the last part of the Clause provides that notice shall be given to the person affected if any alteration is made. Obviously it would be a waste of time and money to give notice of every possible alteration which might take place such as the setting right of clerical errors. In such a case there is no necessity for giving notice, and the Amendment provides that notice shall be given of any change which is not necessitated by an alteration of the valuation list and the effect of which is to alter the amount chargeable in respect of any hereditament.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I would like to find out from the hon. Gentleman if these Amendments are suggested by hon. Members to the Government or are suggested by the Government to hon. Members. I understand that there was a meeting with hon. Members concerned in this Bill some days age. I would also [joint out to the hon. Gentleman that the Amendment taken with the Clause does not seem to lead properly. It will read as follows:
    "Provided that not loss than seven days before making under the foregoing provisions any Amendment which is not necessitated by an alteration of the valuation list and the effect of which is to alter the amount appearing in the rate as chargeable in resent of any hereditament the rating authority shall send notice of the proposed amendment to the occupier of the hereditament affected."
    It is an awful sentence. It has not a comma in six lines. Would it not be possible, when the Bill goes to another place, to improve the grammar and the punctuation, so that it will be intelligible to ordinary mortals as well as to the highly inspired Gentlemen opposite?
    Sir K. WOOD: I am always glad to meet the right hon. and gallant Gentle-

    1061
    man in any way I can, especially in matters of commas. Many of the Amendments on the Paper which the Government propose to accept have been considered, as the House would anticipate, in the interval between the Committee stage and the Report stage by many associations concerned in the administration of this Bill, and it is true as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman says, that we did meet certain hon. Members the other day, including Members of his own party, with a view to facilitating discussion. The House will appreciate that many of these Amendments are very technical in character and steps were taken, as I say, in order to facilitate discussion.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The hon. Gentleman will understand that it is of great assistance to the Opposition to know which are Government Amendments and which are not. If one sees an enormous number of Amendments in the names of hon. Members one does not give them the same attention as would be given to Government Amendments. I submit it is desirable that the Government should appear in its own colours.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. LOOKER: I beg to move, in page 0, line 34, to leave out the words "occupier of the hereditament," and to insert instead thereof the words "person liable to be rated."
    The point of the Amendment is that the occupier of a hereditament is not always the person liable for rates, and obviously the notice referred to in the Clause should be given to the person liable for the rates.
    Mr. G. PETO: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir K. WOOD: I shall be very glad to accept this Amendment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: This is not such a complicated Amendment that we cannot understand it. It seems to be an entirely reactionary step, which ought to have been explained, either by the Mover of the Amendment or by the Government.
    Sir K. WOOD: I shall be glad to give an explanation. As a matter of fact, I thought the Mover of the Amendment gave a very clear explanation of it. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that
    1062
    in Committee various provisions were made by which notice of any Amendments to the rate were to be sent to the occupier of the hereditament affected, and this Amendment proposes that it should be sent instead to the person liable to be rated, which, I think, is a proper course to take.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I disagree. Take the case of compounded property. Under the Bill notice of a change had to be sent to the occupier who paid his rent and rates together, but under this Amendment the occupier will not have any notification at all of a change in the rate. It is even worse than that, because under the Kent Restriction Acts the power of the landlord to raise the rent depends upon the rate which he is charged, and is this also to be kept dark from the occupier? Is it only to be conveyed to the person liable to be rated? Why should not the occupier have the information, which is just as important to him as it is to the owner?
    Sir K. WOOD: I think the right hon. and gallant Member is making an unnecessary difficulty over this point. Obviously, when an alteration is being made in the rate, notice should be sent to the person who is adversely affected, and that is the person liable to be rated. Those words are wider than the words in the Clause as it stands.
    Mr. CRAWFURD: This is a point of some substance. Later on, I hope to have the opportunity of moving an Amendment which will have the effect of giving to the occupier of the hereditament rated all the information which is given to the person who pays the rate. That seems to me to be a principle of the first importance, from many points of view. With regard to this particular Amendment now before the House, I wish to back up what has fallen from the right hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), to the effect that under the Kent Restriction Acts the person adversely affected is the occupier of the house, and, therefore, he should at least know what is going on.
    Sir K. WOOD: I will look into the matter again. The person who ought to have notice of any alteration in the rate is the person liable for the rate, but I will give an undertaking that we will look into it between now and the time when the Bill goes to another place.
    Mr. WEBB: I think the hon. Member in charge of the Bill must consider a little, having said just now that the person adversely affected should get the notice, and that is the owner. I do not know whether the Mover of the Amendment meant that, but surely he must know that in a positive majority of the hereditaments that are rated, the owner, while he may actually pay the rate, gets it back, as a matter of fact, from the occupier, and surely, therefore, the occupier is equally adversely affected with the owner. In many cases, indeed, his rent actually depends on the amount of the rate. Here is a proposal that the rate may be reduced, and the occupier, according to the Bill, is to have notice of that reduction, but, according to the Amendment, the occupier is not to have notice. Assuming that the Government really wish to give notice to all the people adversely affected, it is easy, instead of accepting this Amendment, to leave in the words "occupier of the hereditament," and after them to insert the words "and the person liable to be rated." They are different people in positively a majority of oases, and surely, therefore, the obvious thing is to include both. That was actually the proposal, as I understood it, of the hon. Member
    in charge of the Bill, because he said he wanted to give notice to the person adversely affected, yet, by accepting the Amendment, he is going to cut out the person adversely affected.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Are we not going to have a reply?
    Sir K. WOOD: I gave an undertaking to look into the matter.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: Does that mean that the Parliamentary Secretary withdraws his acceptance of the Amendment? If not, we must go to a Division against it. We cannot leave it as it is.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I venture to think it would be much better to accept the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary. He has offered to have this matter further looked into. If the hon. Member inlands to go to a Division, we shall have to take the decision of the House, and that will be the end of it. Otherwise, we are quite ready to look into it.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 119; Noes, 292.

    Division No. 389]

    AYES.

    [9.54 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Greenall, T.

    Montague. Frederick

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Morrison, R. c. (Tottenham, N.)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Groves, T.

    Palin, John Henry

    Baker, Walter

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

    Potts, John S.

    Barr, J.

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Batey, Joseph

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Riley, Ben

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Ritson, J.

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Briant, Frank

    Hardie, George D.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Broad, F. A.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Scurr, John

    Buchanan, G.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Cape, Thomas

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Charleton, H. C.

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Clowes, S.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Smillie, Robert

    Compton, Joseph

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Smith Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Connolly, M.

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Cove, W. G.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Snell, Harry

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Taylor, R. A.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Kelly, W. T.

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Kennedy, T.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Dennison, R.

    Lansbury, George

    Thurtle, E.

    Duncan, C.

    Lawson, John James

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Dunnico, H.

    Lee, F.

    Townend, A. E.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Fenby, T. D.

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Varley, Frank B.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Lowth, T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Gillett, George M.

    Lunn, William

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Gosling, Harry

    Mackinder, W.

    Walsh. Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Warne, G. H.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    March, S.

    Watson, W. M. (Dumfermline)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    West wood, J.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. A.

    Whiteley, W.

    Windsor, Walter

    Barnes.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Drewe, C.

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Albery, Irving James

    Duckworth, John

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Jacob, A. E.

    Allan, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Elliot, Captain Walter E.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Elveden, Viscount

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Apsley, Lord

    England, Colonel A.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Listor, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

    Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Fermoy, Lord

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Fielden, E. B.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Finburgh, S.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Fleming, D. P.

    Looker, Herbert William

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Forrest, W.

    Lougher, L.

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vera

    Blundell, F. N.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Mac Andrew, Charles Glen

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Brass, Captain W.

    Gates, Percy

    Macintyre, Ian

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    McLean, Major A.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Gee, Captain R.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Grace, John

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Grant, J. A.

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Meller, R. J.

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Burman, J. B.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Hall, Capt. W. O'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Hanbury, C.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Harland, A.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Murchison, C. K.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Neville, R. J.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Christie, J. A.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Clayton, G. C.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Oakley, T.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Owen, Major G.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Hilton, Cecil

    Pease, William Edwin

    Cope, Major William

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Couper, J. B.

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Holland, Sir Arthur

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Crook, C. W.

    Homan, C. W. J.

    Perring, William George

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Pielou, D. P.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

    Pilcher, G.

    Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Preston, William

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Dixey, A. C.

    Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Radford, E. A.

    1066

    1067

    Raine, W.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Rawson, Alfred Cooper

    Skelton, A. N.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Remer, J. R.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Wells, S. R.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Spender Clay, Colonel H.

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Wilson. R R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Storry Deans, R.

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Rye, F. G.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Salmon, Major I.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Womersley, W. J.

    Samuel, A, M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Tinne, J. A.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Sandon, Lord

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Cot. K. P.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Savery, S. S.

    Waddington, R.

    Major Sir Harry Barnston and

    Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Major Hennessy.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

    Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.
    Mr. SANDEMAN ALLEN: I beg to move, in page 6, line 40, at the end, to insert the words
    "(3) This Section shall come into operation on the appointed day,"
    This is merely a drafting Amendment to make clear that the Section shall come into operation on the appointed day.
    Sir WILFRID SUGDEN: I bog to second the Amendment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: This Sub-section now seems to be scattered all over the Bill. Clause after Clause contains the words "This Section shall come into operation on the appointed day." If it be desirable that this should appear at the end of each Clause, could we not take it as read in subsequent Clauses instead of having it moved on each occasion? I do think that this new feature in our legislation ought to have some foreword from the Minister in charge.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 6.—(Publication of rate.)
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in page 6, line 41, to leave out the words ''a rate" and to insert instead thereof the words,
    "every rate shall he given by the rating authority within seven days after the making thereof, and the rate shall not be valid unless notice thereof is duly given in manner for the time being required by law.
    "(2) Any such notice."
    If hon. Members will notice the wording of the Clause, they will see that the rating authority may, if they think fit, in lieu of giving the notice in the manner
    1068
    prescribed by Section 2 of the Parish Notices Act, 1837, give it by affixing the notice in some public or conspicuous place or situation in each parish affected, or by publishing the notice in one or more newspapers circulating in the area of the authority, and the different methods of publication may be used as respect different parts of the area of the rating authority.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: There seems to be the need for some more explanation than we have had. There are no less than six or seven Amendments put down in the name of the Government to take out certain words and to put in other words. In fact, it is a sort of jig-saw puzzle to fit in the Amendments which have been put forward to this Clause. Why could we not have had a piece of straightforward wording which we could understand? Apparently the local authority are given several alternatives in the publication of the rates; by affixing the notice in some public or conspicuous place or by publishing or on the church door, or the parish hall, or by publishing in the newspapers circulating in the area. The person who wants to see what the rate is to be will not be able to tell from year to year whether it is going to be put up on the church or the chapel door, or the parish hall door, or at the local railway station, or in the local newspaper. Is that really what the Government intend? Is it necessary to adopt this procedure and not a more simple one?
    Sir K. WOOD: This matter was discussed in Committee, and it was felt desirable to leave the publication to the discretion of the local authority?
    Mr. THURTLE: I may be very dense, but I cannot understand what is meant by the Amendment on the Order Paper, page 2184,
    "(2) Any such notice."
    I should like the Minister to explain what is meant by this.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think it is fairly obvious if the hon. Member will piece the Clause and the Amendments together.
    Mr. THURTLE: "If the rating authority think fit"?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid we cannot amend the printing.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: This matter was discussed in Committee, but there are many businesses in this country which have different depôts and factories in very widely scattered parts, and I think it would be very desirable, from our point of view, the business point of view, if we could have a uniform practice in the issue of the rate notices. In spite of the discussion to-day, if the right hon. Gentleman would advise a more uniform system which would commend itself to those who are in business and who are connected with concerns in different parts of the country, it would, I think, be well.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Really I do not know where the notice referred to comes in. I should like also, if the Parliamentary Secretary will read the Clause out to us as it will appear after the several Amendments have been made—
    Sir K. WOOD: I have already done so.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, I know the right hon. Gentleman read something out a while ago. We may be thick headed, but we should like to know where these words come in.
    Sir K. WOOD: I will hand over my copy to the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I hare it here, and I really can read. Will the hon. Gentleman tell me where these words come in?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Amendment is to leave out the words "a rate" at the beginning of Clause 6, and to insert instead thereof the words on the Order Paper. Then follow words which will make the new Sub-section (2) read:
    "(2) Any such notice may, if the rating authority think fit, be given either by affix-
    1070
    ing the notice at any time within the said period of seven days on on near to the doors of churches and chapels in the manner prescribed—"
    and so on.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Mr. Speaker, if I may say so with respect, a man of experience like yourself can understand it, but I think an explanation should be given to the right hon. Gentleman.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    In page 6, line 42, leave out the words "in lieu of being given," and insert instead thereof the words
    "be given either by affixing the notice at any time within the said period of seven days on or near to the doors of churches and chapels."
    In page 7, line 1, leave out the words "be given," and insert instead thereof the word "or."
    In line 2, after the word "notice," insert the words "within the said period."
    In line 4, after the word "notice," insert the words "within the said period."
    In line 7, at the end, insert the words
    "(3) This Section shall come into operation on the appointed day."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]

    CLAUSE 7.—(Demand notes for rates.)
    Sir D. NEWTON: I beg to move, in page 7, line 11, to leave out the words "description and."
    This Amendment has to be read in connection with the following Amendment which stands in my name on the Paper. The Clause as drafted reads:
    "Information with respect to the following matters shall be included in the demand note on which the general rate is levied, that is to say—
    (a) the description and situation of the hereditament."
    The effect of my Amendment will be to omit the words "description and" from the demand note. It is an unnecessary obligation to place upon rating authorities. The ratepayer desires to have full information as to the situation of his premises, but it is not necessary that he should also have a description of his premises. It is sufficient for him to have information which will enable him to identify quite clearly, without any possibility of doubt, what property is to be rated, and these words do not occur in

    1071
    our present rating system. If the Clause is passed in its present form it will mean the description will have to be written on the form, and it will be realised that manuscript additions to demand notes are a frequent source of error, as well as being a considerable expense. There is no desire to withhold any information from the ratepayer, and in this connection I would like to point out that Clause 59 empowers the Minister to prescribe the form of demand note, and any rules which the Minister make in that connection will have to be laid upon the Table of this House. Therefore, the ratepayer is amply safeguarded.
    Mr. WOMERSLEY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD Colonel WEDGWOOD rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question before I put the Question to the House. His is the next Amendment on the Paper, and I think the word he wishes to add would come as well after the word "situation" as after the words "description and"?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Yes.
    Mr. SPEAKER: Then I shall not be debarring his Amendment in putting the Question in the form, "That the words 'description and' stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I propose to accept this Amendment, for the reason that since the Bill went through Committee information has come to me which shows that the insertion of the word "description" would probably involve an expenditure the extent of which I had not at all realised when the Clause was in Committee. As my hon. Friend has pointed out, if a description of the hereditament is to be inserted on the demand note it means writing it in. I am informed that in a single large town there are upwards of 130,000 demand notes to be made out twice a year, and that the effect of having to insert a description of the hereditament as well as the situation of it would mean the employment of extra clerks and would cost about £600 a year. One of the main purposes of the Bill is to promote economy, and I am willing to cut out of the Bill anything that is not
    1072
    vitally necessary, and I cannot say that these words "description and" are vitally necessary. No description is required in the printed form of the demand note, although it is divided into two classes, agricultural and non-agricultural land. My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) who has moved this Amendment, has an Amendment further down on the Paper to insert at the end of this Clause the words "and such description thereof as may be prescribed." We really do not require to say whether a hereditament is a shop, a house, or works. We know the situation of the assessment number, and that is quite sufficient, and therefore it seems a waste of money to put in those words.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: This Amendment was put in after considerable discussion, and I think we should have had notice that the Government intended to take out these words before the hon Member moved this "tame cat" Amendment.
    Sir D. NEWTON: Is it in order for the right hon. Gentleman to refer to my Amendment in the words he has just used? I am moving this Amendment on behalf of the Association of Municipal Corporations representing associations throughout the length and breadth of the land.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think it was rather a harmless and semi-humourous expression.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: My reference was used in regard to the two previous Amendments as well, and I think such Amendments may be described as tame cat Amendments. I was not aware that this Amendment was put forward on behalf of the Association of Municipal Corporations, and I only wish the hon. Member had mentioned that fact, because I am sure it would have strengthened his case in moving it. I regard the Association of Municipal Corporations as a somewhat important body.
    Now let me state the case for the Amendment as it was put before the Committee. What we want is that the man who is being rated should know on which property he is being rated. Over and over again you get people owning say, a field apart from their house, and they get no description of their property. I have had notices, and I think hon. Members must have had them also, from which you

    1073
    cannot tell what property is involved. It is absolutely impossible to see, from some of the scanty notices one receives, not only what the property is, but what it is assessed at, and I think we are justified in asking that a person who receives a demand note should have it made quite clear to him for what property he is being assessed. I think it is even more necessary when one looks at the Second Schedule, Parts I and II. In Part I hon. Members will see that, instead of dividing all property subject to rates into the two simple heads mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, that is to say, agricultural land and property other than agricultural land, we have seven different classes of hereditaments, in the case of which there are variable deductions from the gross value. In Part II there will be found two or three other forms of hereditament, which have still further deductions. In these circumstances, it is very desirable that the person who is being rated should know on which of these 10 or a dozen different forms of property he is being rated, as he is entitled under this Bill, if it becomes law, to deductions from the gross assessment which vary according to the class of property.
    For these reasons it seems to me to be eminently desirable that we should have this information. The ordinary ratepayer will never read this Bill, and will never know what sort of deductions he is entitled to. Therefore, it is really only justice to the ordinary ratepayer that he should be shown clearly the class of property and the percentage of deduction allowed, so that he may be quite certain that he is not being unjustly treated by these now assessment authorities. I quite agree that, if a long description had to be written in, it would be a very expensive matter, but, as it is merely a question of putting down, say, "13, High Street," with the addition of "shop" or "dwelling-house," or whatever it may be, I do not think it is asking too much. I think we might have a description sufficiently detailed, at any rate, to allow people to understand what deductions from the gross value are allowed, and, further, when it is a question of a detached piece of land, that the situation of that detached piece of land should be given, in addition to the address of the man who pays the rates.
    Mr. B. PETO: I think the right hon. Gentleman (Colonel Wedgwood) has failed to notice what the Minister has already told him, namely, that he proposed to accept an Amendment, a little further down on the Paper, to insert the words
    "and such description thereof as may be prescribed."
    That appears to me to be the whole matter, and therefore I hope, now that I have informed the right hon. Gentleman of the fact, he will see that there is no reason whatever for further delay.
    Mr. ATTLEE: In spite of the remarks of the hon. Member who has just sat down, our attention had been drawn to that point, but I drew the attention of the House to the fact that it was somewhat vague; all that we are told is going to be accepted is that something or other is going to be prescribed. I listened attentively to the Minister as he made his explanation, and I gathered that such description as we were going to have was rather to relate to agricultural land. He said that it would save time not to put down the description "dwelling house" and so on in towns, but what we want to know in the rate demand note is exactly what is included. You may have a house with a stable attached, and you may not know whether the stabling is included with the house, or whether, for some reason or other, it has been put in a separate assessment; or you may have an advertising station attached to the house which is separately rated. We want to have a description, or, at all events, to get clearly from the Minister exactly what he means by this prescribing of certain details. A statement of the situation does not go very far. I think it is common ground that you must have a description where you have agricultural land. I do not know whether the Minister is going to accept my right hon. Friend's Amendment with regard to extent, but if we do not have something of that sort we do not really know what description is going to be prescribed. We must press for the retention of this and I am rather surprised that there is so much opposition to it because the whole of the Committee upstairs were very emphatic as to what we must have in this Demand Note and included the description and situation. I am not sure

    1075
    it was not one of the occasions where the Minister in charge gave way to the Committee. Members were very strong on the fact that we must have description and situation and so on, and we ought to
    have something more before we permit this to be withdrawn.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 106; Noes, 310.

    Division No. 390.]

    AYES.

    [10.35 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

    Scurr, John

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Baker, Walter

    Hardie, George D.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Barnes, A.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Smillie, Robert

    Barr, J

    Hayes, John Henry

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Batey, Joseph

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burney)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Snell, Harry

    Briant, Frank

    Hirst, G. H.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Broad, F. A.

    Hirst, w. (Bradford, South)

    Taylor, R. A.

    Brown. James (Ayr and Bute)

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Buchanan. G.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Thurtie, E.

    Cape, Thomas

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Charieton, H. C.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Townend, A. E.

    Clowes, S.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Varley, Frank B.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kennedy, T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lansbury, George

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Connolly, M.

    Lee, F.

    Warne, G. H.

    Cove, W. G.

    Lindley F. W.

    Watson, W, M. (Dunfermline)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lowth, T.

    Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lunn, William

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Day. Colonel Harry

    Mackinder, W.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Dennison, R.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Westwood, J.

    Duncan, C.

    March, S.

    Whiteley, W.

    Dunnico, H.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Gillett, George M.

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Windsor, Walter

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Potts, John S.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Greenall, T.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Riley, Ben

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Ritson, J.

    Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Charles Edwards.

    Groves, T.

    Rose, Frank H.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D,

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Albery, Irving James

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Alexander. E. E. (Leyton)

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Allen. J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Cope, Major William

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Brown, Brig-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Couper, J. B.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Apsley, Lord

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Crawfurd, H. t.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Crook, C. W.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Burman, J. B.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Barrlay-Harvey, C. M.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Beckett, Sir Gervase

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Bellairs. Commander Carlyon W.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Cassels, J. D.

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Birchall, Major j. Dearman

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Dixey, A. C.

    Bird, E, R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

    Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Drewe, C.

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Duckworth John

    Blundell, F. N.

    Christie, J. A.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

    Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Elliot, Captain Walter E.

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Elveden, Viscount

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Clayton, G. C.

    England, Colonel A.

    Brass, Captain W.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Radford, E. A.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Jacob, A. E.

    Raine, W.

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Remer, J. R.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Kidd. J. (Linlithgow)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Rentoul, G. S,

    Fenby, T. D.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Fielden, E. B.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Finburgh, S.

    Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Fleming, D. p.

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Forrest, W.

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handtw'th)

    Rye, F. G.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Looker, Herbert William

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Samuel. Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Lougher, L.

    Sandeman A. Stewart

    Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Sandon, Lord

    Gates, Percy

    Mac Andrew, Charles Glen

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Savery, S. S.

    Gee, Captain R.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Macintyre, Ian

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

    McLean, Major A.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Grace, John

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Grant, J. A.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Greene, W. p. Crawford

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Spender Clay, Colonel H.

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Malone, Major p. B.

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Storry Deans, R.

    Hall. Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Marriott, Sir.I. A. R.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Meller, R. J.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Hamilton, Sir H. (Orkney t Shetland)

    Merriman, F. B.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Hammersiey, S. S.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Hanbury, C.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Harland, A.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Thomson. F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C (Kent)

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Harris, Percy A.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro). W.)

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Murchison, C. K.

    Waddington, R.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Neville, R. J.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Hensage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Oakley, T.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Wells, S. R. '

    Hilton. Cecil

    O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Moare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

    Owen, Major G.

    Wilson, R (Stafford, Licffield)

    Holland, Sir Arthur

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Holt, captain H. P.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George

    Homan C. W. J.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Hope, Capt. A. O.J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Hopkins, J. W.W.

    Perring, William George

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Mopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

    Philipson, Mabel

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Pielou, D. P.

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Hudson, R.S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Plicher, G.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Hurst Gerald B.

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Preston, William

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Major Hennessy and Lord Stanley.

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. H. S.

    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move, in page 7, line 11, after the word "description," to insert the word "extent."
    I move this Amendment formally because we do not wish to sit up late to-
    1078
    night, and we would like to come to an arrangement as soon as possible. I should point out, however, that it is desirable that there should be some definite figures given on the demand note, as to the areas involved, and where

    1079
    these odd pieces of land assessable to rates are, and it is essential in certain cases that the extent should be added to the figures on the demand note.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I appreciate the desire of the right hon. Gentleman not to sit up late to-night, and as soon as we come to Clause 23 we can adjourn. In reference to the Amendment, the purpose which the right hon. Gentleman has in mind will be fully covered by an Amendment in the name of my hon.
    Friend the Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) to insert the words
    "and such description thereof as may be proscribed."
    What we want to do is to put in sufficient details to enable the hereditaments to be fully identified, but not to impose on the rating authorities greater expense than is necessary.
    Question put, "That the word 'extent' be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 108; Noes, 312.

    Division No. 391.]

    AYES.

    [10.45 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hall, F. (York, W. B., Normanton)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Scurr, John

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hardie, George D.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Hartshorn, Ht. Hon. Vernon

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Baker, Walter

    Hayday, Arthur

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Barker. G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Barnes A.

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Smillie, Robert

    Barr, J

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Batey, Joseph

    Hirst, G. H.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Snell, Harry

    Briant, Frank

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Broad, F. A.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Taylor, R. A.

    Buchanan, G.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Cape, Thomas

    Kelly, W. T.

    Thurtle, E.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Kennedy, T.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Clowes, S.

    Lansbury, George

    Townend, A. E.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lawson, John James

    Varley, Frank B.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lee, F.

    Viant, S. P.

    Connolly, M.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Cove, W. G.

    Lowth, T.

    Warne, G. H.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lunn, William

    Watson, W. M. (Dumfermilne)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Mackinder, W.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Dennison, R.

    March, S.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Duncan, C.

    Murnin, H.

    Westwood, J.

    Dunnico, H.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Whiteley, W.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Oilver, George Harold

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gillett, George M.

    Palin, John Henry

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Greenall, T.

    Potts, John S.

    Windsor, Walter

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Riley, Ben

    Griffiths. T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Ritson, J.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Groves, T.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Ma. Alien Parkinson and Mr.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Rose, Frank H.

    Charles Edwards.

    Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Agg-Gardner, Fit. Hon. Sip James T.

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Albery, Irving James

    Blundell, F. N.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

    Campbell, E. T.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Apsley, Lord

    Brass, Captain W.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Christie, J. A.

    Barnett, Major sir Richard

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Clayton, G. C.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Birchall, Major J. Dear-man

    Burman, J. B.

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

    Pilditen, Sir Philip

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Holland, Sir Arthur

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Cope, Major William

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Preston, William

    Couper, J. B.

    Homan, C. W. J.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Radford, E. A.

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Raine, W.

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Rawson, Alfred Cooper

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

    Hudson, Capt-A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Remer, J. B.

    Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Dalkeith Earl of

    Hurs Gerald B.

    Rhys, Hon C. A. U.

    Davidson, J.(Hertfd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Inskip Sir G. H. Thomas Walker H.

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Davies Dr Vernon

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford Hereford)

    Dean Arthur Wellesley

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

    Dixey, A. C.

    Jacob, A. E.

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Doyle, A. C. N Grattan

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Drewe C

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Rye, F. G.

    Duckworth John

    Kennedy, A. H. (Preston)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Elliot Cantain Waiter E.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Elveden Viscount

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    England, Colonel A.

    Lamp, J. Q.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

    Sandon, Lord

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff South)

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Sassoon. Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Savery, S. S.

    Evans, W. Lindsay

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Loder, Herbert William

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Fenby T. D.

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Fermoy Lord

    Lougher, L.

    Smith-Carigton, Neville W.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Finburgh S.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Spender Clay, Colonel H.

    Fleming, D. P.

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    MacAndrew, Charles Glen

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Forrest, W.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W)

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Storry Deans, R.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Macintyre, Ian

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    McLean, Major A.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H

    Ganzoni Sir John

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Gates, Percy

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Geult, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Gee, Captain R.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Meller, R. J.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Gilmour Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Merriman, F. B.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Goff, Sir Park

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Waddington, R.

    Grace, John

    Moles, Thomas

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Grant, J. A.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Murchison, C. K.

    Watts. Dr. T.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

    Wells, S. R.

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Neville, R. J.

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Hamilton, sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    White Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Hanbury, C.

    Nicholson, O. I Westminster)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Harland A.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Windsor-dive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Oakley, T.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Harris Percy A.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Hartington Marquess of

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Owen, Major G.

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Penny, Frederick George

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Perring, William George

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Phillpson, Mabel

    Major Hennessy and Captain

    Hilton, Cecil

    Pielou, D. P.

    Margesson.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Pilcher, G.

    Sir D. NEWTON: I beg to move, in page 7, line 12, at the end, to insert the words
    "and such description thereof as may be prescribed."
    This is a consequential Amendment and I do not wish to weary the House, but in order that the House may be spared the infliction of any semi-humorous remarks as to the genesis of this Amendment, I feel it my duty to add that it was inspired by the Association of Municipal Corporations.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I have no idea, and I suppose nobody in the House has any idea, of the description which is to be prescribed, and before we put in these words it would be only fair to the ratepayers that we should have some idea of the description which is going to be used. It is all very well to hand everything over to the bureaucracy of this country. That view is most popular with the Tory party, but it is not shared by the electorate or the ratepayers. It would be desirable to have information as to what form of description is to be put on these demand papers. Is it going to be clearly stated under which heading in Schedule II the property is to come, so that a man may be able to check the figure at which ho is assessed? The fact this Bill is so complicated makes it essential that we should protect the interests of the person who is rated, and I think it unwise to leave everything to the Ministry. We are therefore justified in asking either the Minister or his chief supporter to give us further information on what is to be printed.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The difficulty with the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is that not only is his curiosity insatiable, but he never listens to the answers which are given. I have already given the answer to this question, but I will repeat it in the hope that, this time. it may reach his ears.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: It is not possible for everybody to be permanently in the House listening to all the right hon. Gentleman's statements.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I understood the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was in the House when I gave the answer. I
    1084
    repeat now that the intention is to consult with the local authorities, and to see what in their opinion is the minimum amount of information that it is necessary to put upon the demand note. We ought to take care to avoid asking the local authorities to put on any matter which is not really necessary and the insertion of which would constitute a heavy charge upon the ratepayers. I do not know whether the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has any care for the interests of the ratepayers, but we are extremely anxious that this Bill should not, unnecessarily, put any extra burden upon the ratepayers. It is in order that we may have an opportunity of discussing this matter at greater length with the local authorities that the words put down by my hon. Friend the Mover have been accepted by me in this particular form. Obviously, the words "such description as may be prescribed," mean that you are not ready to state the information in detail at this moment. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman asks that we should state exactly what we are going to do, but that would be better done when we have an opportunity of discussing the matter fully with those who are familiar with all the facts.
    11.0 P.M.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: First of all, the very inquiry my right hon. Friend put in was that they may have the chance of knowing exactly which Schedule of the Bill referred to the particular claim for rates sent in. The right hon. Gentleman has carefully refrained, in his reply, from saying whether the conversations with the representatives of local authorities are going to take place in the immediate future, and whether, as a consequence, he will be able to prescribe, when the Bill goes to another place, exactly what is to be put on the demand note. It seems to me, from the way in which he put the matter to the House, that it ought to be perfectly within the competence of his Department to conclude the discussions with the local authorities in order that the Amendment may be secured before the Bill receives the Royal Assent, and I hope, before we leave this Amendment, he will be able to assure the House that that will be done.
    Mr. VARLEY: I rise to express the hope that the prescribed words will not be so narrow as those outlined by the

    1085
    Minister. I was sorry he so readily accepted the withdrawal of the word "description," because I had pictured some clerk in the employment of a rating authority bringing home to some landlord at least once a year what other people thought about the state of his property.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: The difficulty with this Bill is that it has enjoyed more than its full share of discussion. It has had the, ordinary Second Reading and Committee stages, and then there was interpolated a private Parliament of the right hon. Gentleman's own supporters, who were highly pleased, no doubt, with the explanations he gave, and it is not unusual for the Members of the other and older Parliament to ask for explanations from him when the Bill comes down in due course. That is the origin of most of the difficulties, and I think the right hon. Gentleman would have been better advised if he had put his name to the Amendments he intended to accept. It is impossible for us to know beforehand which Amendments he will accept, and when they are described in quite harmless language by the right hon. Gentleman above the Gangway it gives offence to the party opposite. The request made by the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Opposition Bench that what is going to be prescribed should be clearly stated is obviously in accordance with ordinary Parliamentary usage. When power to make regulations is given in an Act of Parliament, as a rule the draft regulations are laid before the House before the Bill passes out of control of the House.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Not before the Bill passes out from the purview of the House. The rules are generally prescribed to be laid on the Table of the House, and that is done in this Bill. Whatever is prescribed there, is prescribed there in acordance with the Rules, as will be seen by reference to Clause 59 of the Bill.
    Captain BENN: Does the right hon. Gentleman say that the description required is going to be under the control of the House of Commons, so that the Members will be able to move to disagree?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes.
    Captain BENN: If that be so, I think that is satisfactory.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir D. NEWTON: I beg to move, in page 7, line 13, to leave out the words "gross and."
    This should be read in conjunction with the other Amendments just accepted by the House, and it would have the effect of reducing the cost of the preparation of the demand note. Existing demand notes do not contain the information, and no complaints or difficulties have thereby arisen. I feel, and I think the House will probably feel, that what the ratepayer wants to know is the rateable value of his property, and to give this further information twice, and sometimes four times a year, would be an unnecessary expense, and would not be either expected or desired by the average ratepayer who can obtain all the information by going to see the rate book, and he could do so without having to pay any charge for that inspection. Therefore, I do feel that his interests are amply safeguarded without the insertion of these words.
    Mr. WOMERSLEY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I gather from what I have heard outside the Chamber that this Amendment has also been accepted, if not inspired, by the Government. Here we have an Amendment which is reversing the decision of the Committee taken after considerable debate. While I think there was some force in the right hon. Gentleman's argument that "description" was too vague, and that it would be better to have "prescribed," yet here, where it is a question of the insertion of the gross rateable value of property, I think we are on absolutely safe and sound ground. The. hon. Gentleman says that he is actuated in cutting those words out by the desire to save the money of the ratepayers, but we have something more to consider even than that, and that is the interests of the ratepayer. Under this Bill, there is a vast new number of deductions from gross value in order to arrive at net value, and then, again, from net value in order to arrive at rateable value. Unless there is on the demand note carefully stated both the gross and the net rateable value, I do

    1087
    not see how you will be able to show a particular ratepayer, or how that ratepayer can determine, at what his property is rated.
    No doubt, if the ordinary ratepayer consulted the valuation roll, he would be able to discover at what his property was assessed, but I should imagine I, in company with most hon. Members present, always judge what their property is assessed at from the note they get from the local authority with the demand for the rates, and if in future you are going to omit from the demand note the gross rateable value at the time when the net rateable value bears to the gross a variable ratio dependent upon the sort of property it is, it is most undesirable that we should leave out this gross rateable value, and leave the ratepayer in complete darkness as to the figure at which his property is rated. For all these reasons, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider not merely the financial interest of the local authority and the time and expense in filling in the gross value, but will consider also the interests of the ratepayers, who have a perfect right to know at what figure they are being taxed. I am quite certain, if it were put, not to Members of this House, but to the ordinary ratepayer in the country he would be overwhelmingly in favour of the Clause as it stands. In order that the ratepayers may see and know what their property is assessed at, I beg the House to retain the Bill as it is and as it was when it left the Committee, and leave us these safeguarding words so that the ratepayer may be safeguarded in that to which he is perfectly entitled.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It does not seem to me that there has been a case made
    out for maintenance of gross value. The right hon. Gentleman says that the ratepayers should be safeguarded, or otherwise they cannot be sure as to the value at which they are assessed. If we go to the Second Schedule, Part I, hon. Members who have any doubt about the various values will, I think, see what is necessary. It must also be remembered that there is a revaluation every five years, and the ratepayer does not want to be continually finding out what is his gross value. On all the grounds I have stated there is no case really to be made out, and, after this explanation. I hope it will not be necessary to divide the House.
    Mr. CECIL WILSON: There is in Part I of the Second Schedule, Paragraph (2), dealing with houses and buildings without land other than gardens, where the gross value exceeds £20 but does not exceed £40, where the amount of the deduction is £7, or an amount equal to 25 per cent. of the gross value, whichever is the greater; and there is Paragraph (3) which follows where 20 per cent. is taken off. There seems some need for an explanation of the difference between the two cases.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: By leave of the House I may perhaps say that the point is one that I thought I had made clear. The ratepayer can always go to the valuation list and see which part of his hereditament is concerned, but it is not necessary to have the information put on the demand note every six months.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes. 104: Noes, 303.

    Division No. 392.]

    AYES

    [11.17 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Connolly, M.

    Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Cove, W. G.

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Baker, Walter

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Hardie, George D.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Dennison, R.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Barnes, A.

    Duncan, C.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Barr, J.

    Dunnico, H.

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Batey, Joseph

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Briant, Frank

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Hirst, G. H.

    Broad, F. A.

    Gillett, George M.

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Graham. D M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Cape, Thomas

    Greenall, T.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Clowes, S.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Groves, T.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Compton, Joseph

    Grundy, T. W.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Ritson, J.

    Varley, Frank B.

    Lansbury, George

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Viant, S. P.

    Lawson, John James

    Rose, Frank H.

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Lee, F.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Warne, G. H.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Scurr, John

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Lunn, William

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Mackinder, W.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Westwood, J.

    March, S.

    Smillie, Robert

    Whiteley, W.

    Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Murnin, H.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Snell, Harry

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Wilton, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Palin, John Henry

    Taylor, R. A.

    Windsor, Walter

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Potts, John S.

    Thurtle, E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.

    Riley, Ben

    Townend, A. E.

    Hayes.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Cope, Major William

    Harland, A.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Couper, J. B.

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Albery, Irving James

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Harris, Percy A.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Crook, C. W.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Apsley, Lord

    Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

    Dixey, A. C.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Drewe, C.

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Duckworth, John

    Holland, Sir Arthur

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

    Homan, C. W. J.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Elliot, Captain Walter E.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    England, Colonel A.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Blundell, F. N.

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Brass, Captain W.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

    Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Fenby, T. D.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Fermoy, Lord

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

    Finburgh, S.

    Jacob, A. R.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Fleming, D. P.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Brown, Col. D.C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Brown, Brig.- Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Forrest, W.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Burman, J. B.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Campbell, E. T.

    Gates, Percy

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Gee, Captain R.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Looker, Herbert William

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Goff, Sir Park

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Lougher, L.

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Grace, John

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Christie, J. A.

    Grant, J. A.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    MacAndrew, Charles Glen

    Clayton, G. C.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Macdonald, Capt. p. D. (I. of W.)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Macintyre, Ian

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Hanbury, C.

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Macquisten, F. A.

    1090

    1091

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Radford, E. A.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Raine, W.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Rawson, Alfred Cooper

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Weller, R. J.

    Remer, J. R.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Merriman, F. B.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Moles, Thomas

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R.(Ayr)

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Waddington, R.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Rye, F. G.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Murchison, C. K.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Neville, R. J.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Wells, S. R.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Sandon, Lord

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Oakley, T.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Savery, S. S.

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Windser-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Owen, Major G.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Penny, Frederick George

    Skelton, A. N.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Perring, William George

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Spender Clay, Colonel H.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Phillpson, Mabel

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Pielou, D. P.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Pilcher, G.

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Colonel Gibbs and Major Sir

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Harry Barnston.

    Preston, William

    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 7, line 35, to leave out the word "authorities," and to insert instead thereof the word "authority."
    This is purely a drafting Amendment, to correct a printing error.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move, "That further Consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."
    I take advantage of the Prime Minister's presence to make this Motion. I do not know what the intentions of the Government are, but, as we have three days for the consideration of this Bill, I hope we shall not be sitting till about two o'clock in the morning, with the inconvenience of not being in a fit state to conduct the Bill to-morrow, and also starting the week badly—I may add, quite unnecessarily. I observe that we have now finished Clause 7. When this Bill was in Committee, it took eight solid days to get as far as that, and I think the Government may say that they have made sufficient progress for the day. At any rate, if we go on at this pace, the Bill will be passed in a much shorter time than I imagined when it was brought
    1092
    before the House for the Report stage, because hon. Members must recollect that when a Bill is before a Committee all the new Clauses are taken at the end of the Committee stage, whereas on Report the new Clauses are taken at the beginning. Therefore, we may say that we have now done the equivalent of six days' work in Committee. I submit that in these circumstances we might have the opportunity of getting home to bed, instead of trying to legislate at this hour of the night.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I feel a little doubtful whether I ought to accept this Motion, seeing that the House ordered the Eleven o'Clock Rule to be suspended, and I hope that, if I do allow it, the House will take its decision quickly, whatever it may be. Otherwise, I shall have to be very careful about accepting such a Motion.
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): I rise to answer the question submitted to me by the Leader of the Opposition. It is quite true, as he said, that considerable time was taken on the Committee stage, which seems to me to be an admirable reason why we should

    1093
    take much less time on Report. As a matter of fact, it never was our intention to ask the House to sit unduly late to-night. It is important that we should get to bed; it is equally important that we should get home for Christmas. I do not propose to ask the House to sit later than about half-past twelve to-night, and I hope very much that by that time we may make substantial progress, and may be enabled also to get to bed at a reasonable hour on the other nights.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I do not intend to depart from your desire, Mr. Speaker, that we should not debate this Motion for very long. But the decision of the Prime Minister raises the whole question of the business of this Session. He says it is important that we should get home for Christmas. That is perfectly certain; we all want to get home for Christmas. But there is no reason why the House should break up a week before Christmas
    and then adjourn until six weeks after Christmas. One reason why I feel inclined not to facilitate the getting through of a Bill of this kind is that the Government are making no provision whatsoever to deal with what I consider is a very much more important question, and I object very strongly to the notion that, because it has been the custom that this House should have months and months of holiday during the year, we should continue to do that in face of the fact that the House ought to be sitting down to the task of finding out how to deal with a subject that always at election times we say is important, namely, the great problem of unemployment.
    Question put, "That further Consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."
    The House divided: Ayes, 102; Noes, 276.

    Division No. 393.]

    AYES.

    [11.30 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ritson, J.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

    Scurr, John

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Baker, Walter

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillary)

    Hardie, George D.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Barnes, A.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Barr, J.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hayday, Arthur

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Snell, Harry

    Briant, Frank

    Hirst, G. H.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Broad, F. A.

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Taylor, R. A.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)

    Cape, Thomas

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Thurtle, E.

    Clowes, S.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cluse, W. S.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Townend, A. E.

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Varley, Frank B.

    Compton, Joseph

    Kennedy, T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Connolly, M.

    Lansbury, George

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Lawson, John James

    Warne, G. H.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lindley, F. W.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lunn, William

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Mackinder, W.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Dennison, R.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Duncan, C.

    March, S.

    Westwood, J.

    Dunnico, H.

    Murnin, H.

    Whiteley, W.

    Fenby, T. D.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Pailn, John Henry

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Gillett, George M.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Windsor, Walter

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Greenall, T.

    Potts, John S.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Riley, Ben

    Hayes.

    Groves, T.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Albery, Irving James

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Blundell, F. N.

    Apsley, Lord

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Brass, Captain W.

    Harland, A.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Perring, William George

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Phillpson, Mabel

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Pielou, D. P.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Preston, William

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Radford, E. A.

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Hilton, Cecil

    Raine, W.

    Burman, J. B.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Ramsden, E.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

    Rawson, Alfred Cooper

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Holland, Sir Arthur

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Remer, J. R.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Christie, J. A.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Clarry Reginald George

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Clayton, G. C.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Rye, F. G.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Jacob, A. E.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Cockerill Brigadier-General G. K.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Cope, Major William

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Sandon, Lord

    Couper, J. B.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Savery, S. S.

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Skelton, A. N.

    Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Loder, J. de V.

    Spender Clay, Colonel H.

    Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Lord, Walter Greaves-

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Lougher, L.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Davies Dr. Vernon

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Luce, major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Dixey, A. C.

    Lumley, L. R.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Drewe, C.

    MacAndrew, Charles Glen

    Stuart, Crichton,- Lord C.

    Duckworth John

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Bairn)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

    Macintyre, Ian

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Elliot, Captain Walter E.

    McLean, Major A.

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    England, Colonel A.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Waddington, R.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Fielden, E. B.

    Meller, R. J.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Fleming, D. P.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Forrest, W.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Wells, S. R.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Moles, Thomas

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

    Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Gates, Percy.

    Morrison, H (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Murchison, C. K.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Gee, Captain R.

    Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Neville, R. J.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Grace, John

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Wood, E (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Grotrian, H. Brent.

    Oakley, T.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Owen, Major G.

    Major Sir Harry Barnston and Mr.

    Hanbury, C.

    Pennefather, Sir John

    F. C. Thomson.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Penny, Frederick George

    CLAUSE 8.—(Discount on general rate.)
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, on page 8, line 1, to leave out the words "from time to time."
    This and the three Amendments which follow are little more than drafting Amendments. They are intended to make its intention more clear but do not in any way alter its effect.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made: In page 8, line 2, leave out the word "make" and insert instead thereof the words "by resolution direct that".
    In line 3, after the word "centum," insert the words "shall be made."
    In lines 5 and 6, leave out the words "same within such time after demand of the rate," and insert instead thereof the words "net amount due before such date."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in page 8, line 7, to leave out from the word "that," to the end of the Clause, and to insert instead thereof the words
    " the said allowance—

    (a) shall not be made where the person paying the rate is an owner who, under the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to the rating of and the payment and collection of rates by owners, is rated instead of the occupier in respect of the hereditament or has entered into an agreement with the rating authority to pay or collect the rates payable in respect thereof; and

    (b) shall be made at the same rate to all persons entitled thereto.

    (2) The rating authority may at any time revoke or vary a resolution under this Section.
    (3) While any resolution under this Section is in force, there shall be included in every demand note on which the general rate is levided a statement of the effect of the resolution."
    This Amendment is to meet a point raised in Committee. The proposal, as it appears on the Paper, is, I think, perfectly clear.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 9.—(Provisions as to precepts.)
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 8, line 20, to leave out from the word "issued" to the word "Expendi-
    1098
    ture" in line 23, and to insert instead thereof the words
    "by guardians in respect of any period beginning on or after the appointed day, and by councils of counties in respect of any period beginning on or after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine."
    The effect of the Amendment is to make a distinction between the time at which the precept reform is to come into operation as regards one kind of precepting authority—the guardians—and another kind, the County Councils. The guardians precepting reform is to come into operation on the appointed day provided in the Bill but the County Councils say that as far as they are concerned the change should not take place until the new valuations are completed, that is, not until 1929. The reason for that is that there is a considerable want of uniformity as between one union and another. Hitherto the County Councils have relied on a certain basis for securing uniformity as regards their precepts, but as that is swept away they do not want to issue precepts on parochial valuations, and they desire to wait until there is some sort of uniformity throughout the area before the change takes place.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 8, line 36, after the word "being," to insert the words
    "(subject in the case of a rating area not being a rural district to such adjustment as is hereinafter provided)."
    This is one of a series of Amendments all relating to the same thing. The matter is rather technical, and I do not want to take up time in explaining it. unless I am desired to do so. If hon. Members will look at the Clause, they will see that Sub-section (4, a) reads:
    "(4) Rules made for the purposes of this Section—
    (a) shall, for the purpose of securing that the basis on which the produce of a rate is to be estimated and any sums duo under a precept are to be ascertained shall be the same for urban rating areas and for rural rating areas, provide that no account shall be taken of any relief under Part II of the Second Schedule to this Act which operates only in county boroughs or urban districts;"
    The object of the Amendment is to put into the Bill itself what was originally proposed to be provided for by rules.
    Amendment agreed to
    Further Amendments made: In page 9, line 1, at the beginning, insert the words "Subject to the provisions of this section";
    In lines 4 and 5, leave out the words "subject to the provisions of this section."— [Mr. Chamberlain.]
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 9, line 8, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that for the purpose of securing that the basis on which the sums due under the precept are to be ascertained shall be the same for rating areas which are rural districts and rating areas which are not rural districts, the amount due under a precept shall, in the case of a rating area not being a rural district, include a sum equal to that by which the produce of the rate would be increased if such of the reliefs given by Part II of the Second Schedule to this Act as operate only in rating areas not being rural districts were not so given, and the precept shall require the rating authority to make provision accordingly for any such additional sum by increasing as may be necessary the amount in the pound of the rate which is required by the precept to be levied."
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I should just like to ask whether the actual detailed wording, which is highly technical, has been agreed upon with the rating authorities and whether it will now be not a rule but a statutory power?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir, that is so.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 9, line 9, after the word "counties," to insert the word "and."
    The next two Amendments go together and are of a different character. It will be seen that in line 10 on page 9 occur the words "and the said receiver", that is, the Receiver of the Metropolitan Police District. I am proposing at a later stage to leave London outside the Bill altogether, and therefore this section, in view of that change, will be superfluous; but if at some future time London desires to come into the provisions of the Bill then it will be necessary to amend this Clause again by inserting the words.
    Mr. WEBB: The London which the right hon. Gentleman is going to leave out of the Bill is, I imagine, the London. County Council London. Has the right
    1100
    hon. Gentleman considered that the Receiver of the Metropolitan Police District issues his precept upon local authorities outside the London County Council London, as the police area extends far beyond the London County Council London? I imagine that this must have been thought about. I just raise the point in order that it may not be overlooked.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am afraid I cannot answer that at the moment. I will look into it and make quite certain that it is all right.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made: In page 9, line 10, leave out the words "and the said receiver."
    In line 13, leave out from the word "in," to the word "year," in line 15, and insert instead thereof the word "each."
    In lines 17 and 18, leave out the words "and to the said receiver, if he has such a power."
    In page 9, line 23, after the word "be" insert the words
    "if provision were not made by the said Part II of the Second Schedule for any such relief as aforesaid which operates only in a rating area, not being a rural district."
    In page 9, line 26, after the word "would" insert the word "produce."
    In page 9, lines 27 and 28, leave out the words "produce if levied in that year."— [Mr. Chamberlain.]
    Sir D. NEWTON: I bee to move, in page 9, line 28, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that where a rating authority fails to transmit an estimate to any precepting authority in accordance with the foregoing" provisions the precepting authority may for the purposes of this Section make an estimate in lieu of the rating authority."
    This Amendment has been put down at the request of the County Councils Association. It will be clear to the House that if this Amendment is not made, serious inconvenience will be caused to the precepting authorities if any of the rating authorities fail to transmit punctually the necessary information required to make up the precepts. It is therefore felt desirable that the precepting authorities should have

    1101
    power to make an estimate in the absence of this information.
    Captain BOURNE: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I propose to accept this Amendment.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I am surprised that we have not had more explanation of this Amendment. There is far more in this Amendment taken with subsequent Amendments on the Paper, than might appear at first, and I do not think we are justified in disposing of them summarily. I gather from a subsequent Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) that the rating authority will be required to pay interest at the rate of 6 per cent. per annum on the amounts due under precepts which they have not made over to the precepting authorities on the date specified in the demand. That proposal may have serious consequences to ratepayers in a particular section of a rating area. There are all kinds of reasons for an authority being unable at certain times to meet precepts. I daresay the Mover considers that the County Council will act reasonably in operating this provision, but in poor areas there are many authorities who, having received the precept, would be actually unable to raise the money even though they agreed to levy the required rate. I take it from this Amendment and subsequent Amendments that we are to have not merely this 6 per cent. charge on the very areas which are poor and unable to meet the rate in full, but that—
    Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): This is not a question of levying a charge but merely a question of making an estimate.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: I am asking the hon. Gentleman the Mover to make the matter clear to the House.
    Sir D. NEWTON: I have every intention of making the point raised by the hon. Member perfectly clear when we reach the Amendment which deals with it.
    Captain BENN: Will the Minister, for the convenience of hon. Members, arrange before the next sitting of the House to put his own name to the Amendments which he intends to accept?
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir D. NEWTON: I beg to move, in page 9, line 42, at the end, to insert the words:
    "and an estimate nifty be revised under Sub-section (3) of the said Section before the expiration, instead of at the expiration, of the first six months of the financial year."
    12 M.
    This also has been put down on behalf of the County Councils Association, and it is really a drafting Amendment. Under Section 75 of the Local Government Act, 1888, certain obligations were imposed upon county councils with regard to the dates which they were to make up their financial year and with regard to the framing of their budget. That conflicted with some of the provisions of this Bill, and, so far as the spring budget was concerned, the necessary alterations were made and the necessary powers were given to the county councils to deal with the situation, but similar powers were not put in for the second half of the year, and it is to meet that difficulty that this Amendment has been framed.
    Captain BOURNE: I beg to second the Amendment. The House will perhaps realise that up till now the county councils have made their own estimates of the rateable value of any given locality, and they have obtained their budgets under those estimates. Under this Bill the county councils will levy their precepts on a different basis, and if they are to keep their finances in order, it is necessary for them to have the earliest information of any changes in the assessable values.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir D. NEWTON: I beg to move, in page 10, line 9, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Where the amount due under a precept, or any part of that amount, is not paid on or before the date specified in the precept for payment, the authority by which the precept was issued may, if they think fit, require the rating authority to pay, in accordance with the following provisions, interest on that amount, or that part of the amount, and any interest,so payable shall be paid by the rating authority to the authority by which the precept was issued in like manner as if it were due Tinder the precept;
    For the purpose of the foregoing provision interest shall be calculated at the rate of six per cent. per annum and shall commence to run from the date of payment specified in the precept, except that no interest shall be charged in respect of any day before the expiration of six weeks from

    1103
    the commencement of the financial year or financial half-year, as the case may be, in respect of which the precept was issued, or in respect of any day on which the aggregate amount of any payments made under the precept is equal to or exceeds the sum which bears to the aggregate amount of the instalments required by the precept the same proportion as the number of days which have elapsed since the commencement of the said financial year or half-year, as the case may be, bears to the total number of days contained in that year or half-year."
    This Amendment is acceptable to both the County Councils Association and the Municipal Corporations Association. It is within the knowledge of this House that there is sometimes dilatoriness in meeting county precepts, and at present, under the existing rating provisions, 10 per cent. can be charged upon an overdue account, by the County Rates Act, 1852. The proposal in this Amendment allows for six per cent. instead of 10 per cent. In addition to that, under the existing law overseers can be distrained upon and their goods sold up. It is clear, I think, that further powers are wanted to meet the new situation which will arise under this Bill. It is not of much use to distrain upon a steam roller or the office furniture of a corporate body, and, therefore, it seems not unreasonable that the proposal made in this Amendment in regard to 6 per cent. should be incorporated in the Bill.
    Captain BOURNE: I beg to second the Amendment. I wish to say that the Amendment is one to which those responsible for county finances attach great importance. I do not think the power given under the Act of 1852 has often been put into execution, but the mere fact that the power is there is an indication that Parliament at that time thought it necessary in the case of recalcitrant authorities, and I feel that the county councils, which have very important duties to discharge, should have some redress in the case of local authorities who will not pay up.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I hope the Government are not going to accept this Amendment. Anyone who has had anything to do with poor districts knows that very often it is impossible for them to pay the money due out of their funds, and it is impossible for them to do what a larger authority can do, and that is to keep a balance to tide them over. I know that in London many of the borough councils
    1104
    and boards of guardians are obliged to hold up cheques for the London County Council that are payable at a certain date, and, except for the accommodation that they get from the County Council and the Metropolitan Asylums Board, they would not be able to carry on at all. Now you are proposing that, because they are poor, they are to be treated just as if they were debtors to some moneylender and to pay at the rate of 6 per cent. The hon. and gallant Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) said that the county councils would be unable to get the money from recalcitrant authorities that were not willing to pay. I do not believe that there is any authority in the country that is not willing to pay when it has the money, and putting 6 per cent. on to them makes it even more difficult, but I would like to say that in the case of a truly recalcitrant authority, such as Poplar was a year or two ago, the fact that you put 6 per cent. on would not have made a scrap of difference, because they had made up their minds not to pay, and they knew that the longer they went on not paying the heavier the debt would become, and the more impossible it would be to meet it, so that you do not gain anything by saying that you will add on 6 per cent. It is not the recalcitrant bodies, however, about which I wanted to speak, but those who, as is well known by every town councillor or member of a board of guardians in a poor district, if it were not for the credit they get from the central authority not calling upon them to pay forthwith, would not be able to carry on at all. I think that this is an Amendment of substance, and one which the House ought not to accept, from the point of view of the most poor and heavily stricken areas in the country.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I rather agree that this is an Amendment of some substance, but I think the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) must not be more royalist than the King. As a matter of fact, this Amendment has been examined by the municipal corporations, and they have raised no objection to it, and I think it is obvious why. It is not directed against recalcitrant authorities, but against dilatory authorities.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Poor authorities.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member will be patient, I am coming to

    1105
    that. You cannot really leave the county councils without any remedy whatever in the case of authorities which put off making payments that are due. This is not a proposal that, from the moment the amount of the precept becomes due, 6 per cent. is to be paid. The authority is given six weeks' grace in which no interest is to be chargeable at all, and even after that there is to be no interest chargeable so long as the authorities pay in instalments in amount proportionate to the proportion of the period which has elapsed from the date when the rate was levied. Those two provisions, I think, give ample protection to the poor authorities, for which the hon. Member opposite is so much concerned, and, seeing that the authorities themselves are prepared to accept the Amendment, I see no reason to object to it.
    Mr. J. BECKETT: I have not taken any unnecessary part in the discussions on this Bill, because, although there were many things in it about which some of us have felt nervous, we realised that the Minister was tackling a big job that wanted doing, and we did not want to make it unnecessarily difficult. The Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman has accepted, without giving us any previous notice of it, does really seem to involve a very dangerous principle. His explanation has been devoted to showing that it is quite an innocuous little Amendment with no harm in it; in fact it seems to him so blameless and so entirely unlikely to be used, that I wonder at the keenness of the Mover and Seconder, and the Minister who accepted it, in pressing it upon the House. It strikes me as not being an Amendment calculated to ease the administrative machine, but calculated to put almost malicious powers at the disposal of the senior authority. The chief proof of that seems to me to be in the arbitrary fixing of the 6 per cent. Why 6 per cent.? If it is animated solely by a harmless desire to make dilatory councils pay up, why not the ordinary sum which would be necessary in order to borrow the money? The only explanation of that is that the arbitration is not going before an impartial authority, or a Minister responsible to this House, but that the people who have to collect the debt, without any further reference to anybody, without going at all into
    1106
    arbitration, without having the rights or the wrongs of the matter gone into, will be allowed to impose an arbitrary and very high rate of interest. Quite frankly, it seems to me that in the minds of the people who have put forward this Amendment there must have been some idea to teach the poorer people. If it was merely a desire to expedite business, why not charge the ordinary price of money at the time? I do very seriously urge upon the Minister that this is not a Measure which is likely to help administration. It is not a threat, for no delinquent or dilatory council is likely to be frightened. I hope very much that this will not be a strictly party question, but will be left to the free vote of the House, and that hon. Members on the other side will realise the extraordinary difficulties of the case in any difference of opinion between the two authorities.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I do not want to repeat what I have said. The urban district authorities are not included in this if it is carried out. But some of us have in mind a number of borough authorities who may be adversely affected by a Clause of this kind; that being so, I think the Minister would have been well-advised before agreeing to accept this Amendment of a private Member, to consult all the people concerned. The other point that I want to make is in relation to the Clause itself. It was not thought previously necessary to include this Clause at all. In these circumstances I hope the Minister will not think it necessary to press the House to accept the Amendment. If he insists upon the Amendment, I hope he will not insist upon the rate of interest. It has been suggested that we should have current bank rate inserted instead of the 6 per cent., but I should have thought that 4 per cent. would have been ample for the purpose which the Mover of this Amendment has in view. Personally, I am opposed to the Amendment altogether, but if the Minister insists upon its acceptance I hope he will agree to a further Amendment limiting the interest to 4 per cent.
    Captain BENN: These Amendments moved by hon. Gentlemen opposite are being accepted simply to get the Bill through. All we ask is that the Minister should take the House of Commons into some measure of his confidence. These

    1107
    Amendments are only being accepted by the Minister at the price of retaining the support of his own party.
    Mr. WEBB: The Amendment contains the phrase "if they think fit." Under those circumstances, will not the council be required by the auditor to get in what money they can, and is it not the fact that they will be compelled by the auditor to make this charge? It will not be sufficient to say "if they think fit," because they have to convince the auditor as to why they do not make the addition to the rates which they can make. It seems to me that in the case of these impecunious rural and urban authorities this Amendment would mean an extra charge on the ratepayers in those areas. I do not think such an Amendment ought to be made at this stage. I ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to consider the point in order that we may be able to deal with it on another occasion.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): I think this Amendment only deals with money which has to be paid in any case.
    Sir K. WOOD: Under the Act of 1852 the council can charge 10 per cent., and therefore this Clause is a modification of that.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: The ruling of the Chair was that in the case of a Bill coming from the Committee to this House no addition could be made to that particular Bill on the Report stage which would involve an additional charge on the ratepayers. Therefore it is not a question as to what practice existed under another rating measure, but the ruling was that was the practice of the House not to insert a Clause or Amendment on the Report stage which would involve an increased cost on the ratepayers.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I think that point has been met, and the rest of the Clause deals with money which is due. The council have the power to make the higher charge provided for in this Section of the Clause.
    Major CRAWFURD: There were one or two Amendments which were ruled out of order, and one of the rulings was that any Amendment which meant the imposition of any local burden could
    1108
    not be moved on the Report stage. Does this Amendment not mean a new burden on the ratepayers, because the local authority must raise the money required out of the rates?
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I think not. This Amendment deals with the case where the amount due under the precept is not paid, and, therefore, no such question arises. As regards the interest, the local authority has power to charge a higher rate if it likes.
    Captain BENN: This Clause lays clown the minimum interest at 6 per cent., which, I understand, the local authority are not bound to charge.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The Amendment reads:
    "For the purpose of the foregoing provision interest shall be calculated at the rate of 6 per cent. per annum and shall commence to run from the date of payment specified in the precept."
    It appears to me that the local authority has power to charge 4 per cent. if it likes.
    Captain BENN: Is not the position that at present, although they have power to charge up to 10 per cent., they can charge 6 per cent.?
    Mr. STORRY-DEANS: Is not the true construction that under this Clause they need not charge anything at all, but, if they do make a charge, it must be 6 per cent.? Under the old Act they need not charge anything at all, but they could charge 10 per cent.
    Mr. B. PETO: May I submit that this is not a question at all of imposing a charge, but merely one of machinery for collecting money that is due? Some authority has to make it good, and if the authority that ought to pay the money at the proper time does not do so, the other authorities who receive it would ultimately have to get the money from the ratepayers; it could not come from any other source. Therefore, it is not a question of imposing a charge upon anyone at all, but merely of machinery for collection.
    Mr. BECKETT: On the point of Order. May I point out to you, Sir, that this Measure is to supersede the previous Act, and that there was nothing in this Bill when it came to the Report stage imposing this charge upon the ratepayer? Now this Amendment is to be added imposing

    1109
    a fresh charge of, possibly, 6 per cent. upon the ratepayer, and the other Act cannot be quoted because this Measure supersedes it.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This provision provides machinery, but it does not impose a charge, because under the existing law the county council can demand interest at 10 per cent. This provides machinery for collecting interest at 6 per cent. Clearly it cannot be ruled out as a point of order.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Surely, the whole point of your ruling earlier in the Debate was that, whatever was in the Bill as it came from the Committee— whether it imposed an additional burden on the ratepayer or not— did not matter; but that, if any Amendment were moved which, if it were carried, would impose an additional burden on the ratepayer, that was, not by Standing Order, but by an old Rule of the House, out of order and incapable of being brought before the House on Report. As the Bill stands, no rate of interest is mentioned. If this Amendment had been put in in Committee, no point would have been raised here; but, as the Bill did not mention any particular rate of interest when it left the Committee, and, as the Amendment proposes to insert this rate of interest involving a charge upon the ratepayers, I submit that it is out of order.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It does not impose a charge. There is no additional burden upon the ratepayer, because under the existing law a county council can charge 10 per cent.
    Mr. LANSBURY: The point is, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that while, under the Act you are quoting, they can charge 10 per cent., they need not charge more than 2 per cent., or anything at all; but under this proposal, while they need not charge anything at all, if they do charge anything it must be 6 per cent. If that does not impose a definite charge, I really do not understand what would.
    Captain BENN: On the point of Order. May I put to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the specific case of an authority which may be charging 4 per cent. at the present
    time? When this Bill becomes an Act, that authority must charge 6 per cent, and in a case like that I submit that this Amendment does increase the charge.
    Mr. FENBY: I hope the principle of this Amendment will be accepted by the House, but I would like to ask the Mover of the Amendment to consider the suggestion that has been made with regard to the rate of interest. I speak as a member of a county finance committee that has had to deal with dilatory authorities so far as the payment of money due is concerned, and we have had to threaten, if not to put into actual operation, the Act of 1852. What I am concerned about is this: I agree that the poor authorities should be considered, but there happen to be different kinds of poor authorities. The case I have in mind, which makes me want a Clause of this kind, is where the board of guardians may get the money from a poor parish, and where it is not the poor parish that is in default, but the board of guardians that is dilatory in paying the money over. This is an actual experience in which I have been concerned. Perhaps the Mover of the Amendment would accept a subsequent Amendment because I do not want an authority by an Amendment of this kind in the Bill to have any temptation to make a little money over a little delay. I do want some machinery whereby the larger authority that has received this money from a poorer parish shall be penalised if it does not pay over to the higher county authority the money it has received from the smaller authority. If the Mover of the Amendment will agree that there should be a final Clause of a permissive character, it would meet the case because in my experience, unless there is a good reason, they would not put an arbitral Clause into operation. If you were to insert "Bank rates with a minimum of 4 per cent." I think there would be good reason why the Clause should stand. I do hope the principle will be accepted.
    Question,put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 258; Noes, 54.

    Division No. 394.]

    AYES.

    [12.32 a.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.

    Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

    Albery, Irving James

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Baldwin, Bt. Hon. Stanley

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Grace, John

    Penny, Frederick George

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Grant, J. A.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

    Grotrian, H. Brent.

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Halt, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

    Pielou, D. p.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.

    Preston, William

    Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Hanbury, C.

    Radford, E. A.

    Blundell, F. N.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Raine, W.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Harland, A.

    Ramsden, E.

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Rawson, Alfred Cooper

    Brass, Captain W.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Rye, F. G.

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Salmon, Major I.

    Burman, J. B.

    Holland, Sir Arthur

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Holt, Captain H. P.

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

    Sandon, Lord

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Cape, Thomas

    Hudson, R.S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

    Savery, S. S.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Jacob, A. E.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Christie, J. A.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Clayton, G. C.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Stanley Lord (Fylde)

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Cope, Major William

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Story Deans, R.

    Couper, J. B.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Lougher, L.

    Sudgen Sir Wilfrid

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Thompson, Luke (Sundland)

    Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Lumley, L. R.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    MacAndrew, Charles Glen

    Tinne, J. A.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Dixey, A. C.

    McDonnell, Colonel, Hon. Angus

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Drew, C.

    Macintyre, Ian

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Duckworth John

    McLean, Major A.

    Warner Brigadier-General W. W.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Watson, Sir, F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Elliot, Captain Walter E.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    England, Colonel A.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Wells, S. R.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Meller, R. J.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Fenby, T. D.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Winby, colonel L. P.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Fielden, E. B.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Fleming, D. P.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Forrest, W.

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Murchison, C. K.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

    Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Gaibraith, J. F. W.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Ganzoni, Sir John.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Yeburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Oakley, T.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Gee, Captain R.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Colonel Gibbs and Captain

    Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Owen, Major G.

    Hacking.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Pennefather, Sir John

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. w. (Fife, West)

    Barr, J.

    Briant, Frank

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Batey, Joseph

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Baker, Walter

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    1112

    1113

    Dalton, Hugh

    Kelly, W. T.

    Walsh, Ht. Hon. Stephen

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lansbury, George

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Dunnico, H.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Lunn, William

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Murnin, H.

    Westwood, J.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Whiteley, W.

    Groves, T.

    Pottt, John S.

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Riley, Ben

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Scurr, John

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Windsor, Walter

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Taylor, R. A.

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Hayes.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Further Amendment made: In page 10, line 32, leave out paragraph (a).—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
    Further Amendment proposed: In page 10, line 43, leave out the words "commission paid to owners," and insert instead thereof the words
    "allowance made to owners under the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to the rating of and the payment and collection of rates by owners, any allowance made in respect of prompt payment of the rate." —[Mr. Chamberlain.]
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I hope this will not interfere with any bona fide discussion.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN Mr. CHAMBERLAIN indicated assent.
    Captain BENN: It seems to me that the question put might be answered.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It was answered.
    Captain BENN: It might be answered audibly.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir D. NEWTON: I beg to move, in page 11, line 8, to leave out Subsection (5).
    The intention of this Sub-section is not, I think, very clear, nor do I think the words are necessary. At present county councils include in one precept their requirements for the general county rate and any special rate required for any special county purpose. The intention is to continue that practice, but these words make mo fear that the precepting authority may have to issue a separate demand notice for rates which are at present included in one precept. It would be well if this Sub-section were deleted.
    Captain BOURNE: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I can confirm what has been stated as to the intention of the Sub-section. It was intended to refer merely to the different demands
    1114
    made on the same piece of paper. It appears, however, that it might be construed to mean that separate pieces of paper might have to be issued in respect of each separate rate.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 10.—(Unification of funds and accounts.)
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in page 11, line 38, after the word "union," to insert the words "or the whole of any rating area in the county."
    If the House will look at Sub-section (2) they will see that it is designed to free the rating authority from keeping separate accounts for each one of the separate parishes. The words I am moving to put in provide that a county council, or a board of guardians, shall not, so far as regards income, which belongs to, or expenditure which is chargeable on, the whole of the county or union, or the whole of any rating area in the county, keep separate accounts for parishes. It is done to simplify book-keeping and prevent unnecessary accounts.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Ordered, "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned." — [Mr. Chamberlain.]
    Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be further considered To-morrow.
    The remaining Government Orders were rend, and postponed.
    It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon, Monday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at Fourteen Minutes before One o'clock.