§ As from the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-five, the definition of table waters in Section four of The Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916, shall be amended so as to exclude from table waters chargeable with duties of excise plain spring water which is not either naturally or artificially aerated and which has not undergone any process of manufacture and which is the product of the British Empire.—[Mr. Basil Peto.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. BASIL PETOI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
I shall endeavour to limit my remarks on this Clause to the utmost brevity, in consonance with the nature of the Clause and the smallness of the matter with which it deals. Since I moved this Clause in 1923 a good deal has happened. The Clause asks the House to exempt from the duty of 8d. per gallon plain spring water that happens to be put in a bottle. Last year, when another Government was in power, all sweetened table waters were exempted from the duty. The kiddies' "ginger pop," of which our old friend Will Crooks—I think he was the old friend of every Member on this side of the House—often spoke, and the exemption of which from taxation he always advocated, is no longer taxed; the duty 1256 on herb beer has been removed; and in 1923 the duty of 8d. per gallon on cider was removed. Still, however, if plain spring water is placed in a bottle, it is charged with an excise duty of 8d. per gallon. This duty was increased to 8d. as a War Measure, and it has never been removed. The duty on unsweetened aerated water, of course, has its only justification in the fact that soda-water is the friend, I might say the intimate associate, of that shocking fellow whisky, and it distresses me that plain spring water, because it is put into a bottle, should be brought into such bad company. The main argument for exempting it is this. Of course, whereas soda water is associated with whisky, this plain spring water is a medical necessity to people who suffer from rheumatism and find themselves compelled to live in a district where there is a chalky sub-soil. The doctor will tell them they must have plain pure spring water uncontaminated with chalk, which is poison to their system. It is absurd to charge Excise duty upon such an article. You might almost as well charge a tax upon pure air or sunshine. The thing is injustifiable. This concession was practically granted in 1923—as nearly so as any words from the Front Bench that do not constitute a categorical promise could promise anything.
§ Mr. PETOOur side. The present Home Secretary, who was the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said:
Inasmuch as the acceptance of this proposal would only mean a loss of revenue altogether infinitesimal, and as I have offered to consider the position of certain similar duties, I will promise my hon. Friend, if he will withdraw his Amendment, that it shall have favourable consideration before the Report stage, and, indeed, I hope it will be possible to make the concession for which he has asked.I have since that still further limited this request, which in 1923 involved an infinitesimal sacrifice of revenue, to pure spring water which is the product of the British Empire and is bottled here. I do not ask to include any foreign fancy production which might be regarded as a luxury of the rich. I ask that pure British spring water bottled in this country should not be charged the duty of 8d. a gallon.
Viscountess ASTORAs the case has been so ably put and the hour is late, I shall simply say I should like to second the Motion.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLIt is with no feeling of animosity towards water that I regret
§ I am unable to accept this Clause. I am really not looking at the question from the point of view of beverages but from the point of view of luxuries, and I must say that, apart from medicinal purposes, which are covered by existing Finance Acts, it is a very luxurious thing for people to have only natural water specially put into bottles and served to them in this exceptional manner. Everyone knows perfectly well that ordinary London water is extremely good to drink in hot weather. If people exercise their undoubted right to have perfect water specially bottled and conveyed to a distance inland instead of this excellent London water or other admirable local water, it behoves the State to support temperance on every occasion, and teetotalism is worthy of the greatest respect, but this is a form of luxury teetotalism for the sake of which I really do not think we ought to undergo a substantial sacrifice of essential revenue.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 111; Noes, 248.
1259| Division No. 201.] | AYES. | [11.30 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Robertson. J. (Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hirst, G. H. | Rose, Frank H. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Barnes, A. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Barr, J. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Batey, Joseph | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sneil, Harry |
| Broad, F. A. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Clowes, S. | Kelly, W. T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kennedy, T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lansbury, George | Taylor, R. A. |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Lawson, John James | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) |
| Compton, Joseph | Lowth, T. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Connolly, M. | Lunn, William | Thurtle, E. |
| Cowan. D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Mackinder, W. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Crawturd, H. E. | MacLaren, Andrew | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Varley, Frank B. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | March, S. | Viant, S. P. |
| Duncan, C. | Maxton, James | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Dunnico, H. | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Montague, Frederick | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Forrest, W. | Morris, R. H. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Gillett, George M. | Murnin, H. | Westwood, J. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Naylor, T. E. | Whiteley, W. |
| Graham. Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Oliver, George Harold | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Greenall, T. | Palin, John Henry | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Paling, W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Groves, T. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Windsor, waiter |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wright, W. |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Potts, John S. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Rees, Sir Beddoe | |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hardie, George D. | Riley, Ben | Mr. Basil Peto and Viscountess |
| Mayday, Arthur | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Astor. |
| Hayes, John Henry | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Orsmby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Albery, Irving James | Ganzoni, Sir John | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S. | Gates, Percy | Penny, Frederick George |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Gower, sir Robert | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Ashmead-Bartiett, E. | Grant, J. A. | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Preston, William |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F.E. (Bristrol, N.) | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Raine, W. |
| Balniel, Lord | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Hall, Lieut.-Cot. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Remer, J. R. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Hammersley, S. S. | Remnant, Sir James |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Harland, A. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Harrison, G. J. C. | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Bethell, A. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Haslam, Henry C. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Rye, F. G. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W | Herbert, S. (York, N.R-,Scar. & Wh'by) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Bridgman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Savery, S. S. |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Homan, C. W. J. | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby) |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Burman, J. B. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Smithers, Waldron |
| Campbell, E. T. | Jacob, A. E. | Spender Clay, Colonel H. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Jephcott, A. R. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Storry Deans, R. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Christie, J. A. | Knox, Sir Alfred | Strickland, Sir Gerald |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Lamb, J. Q. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Templeton, W. P. |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Thompson, Luxe (Sunderland) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Looker, Herbert William | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Cope, Major William | Lougher, L. | Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | MacAndrew, Charles Glen | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Waddington, R. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Macintyre, I. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | McLean, Major A. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | MacMillan, Captain H. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Makins, Srigadler-General E. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. | Malone, Major P. B. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Wells, S. R. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Margesson, Captain D. | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Milne. J. S. Wardlaw- | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Drewe, C. | Moles, Thomas | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Elliot, Captain Walter E. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Elveden, Viscount | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| England, Colonel A. | Morden, Colonel Walter Grant | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Womersley, W. J. |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). |
| Fielden, E. B. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Finburgh, S. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon Sir L. |
| Fleming, D. P. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Young, E. Hilton (Norwich) |
| Ford, P. J. | Nuttall, Ellis | |
| Forestier-Walker, L. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Oakley, T. | Colonel Gibbs and Captain Hacking. |
Question "That the Debate be now adjourned," put, and agreed to.