HC Deb 03 December 1925 vol 188 cc2685-701

That during a period of five years from the passing of an Act for giving effect to this Resolution the following duties of Customs shall be charged on the importation into Great Britain or Northern Ireland of the following articles, that is to say,

s. d.
Mantles for incandescent lighting, whether collodionised or not, the gross 6 0
Impregnated hose or stockings for use in the manufacture of such mantles, the lb. 4 6

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER

In making this Motion, I think it will be convenient if, as briefly as possible, I deal with the scope of the Resolution. The Resolution refers to incandescent mantles. This matter was referred to the committee, as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) indicated, partly in view of the importance and character of the industry. There was nothing abnormal in referring it to the committee because the White Paper, on which he has laid such stress, lays down that the test of the importance of an industry is either the number of people employed or the nature of the goods produced. In the case of gas mantles, he will remember from his experience at the Board of Trade that gas mantles were absolutely vital to this country in the last War, and the Committee in considering the case were impressed by two considerations. The first, which I think was more present to our minds during the War, was that you cannot strip gas of benzol, toluol and other products used for high explosives without depriving it of a great deal of its lighting power. You can only use it effectively if you employ incandescent mantles in connection with it. It was of great importance in the last War, and would be of considerable importance in any future war, though perhaps of 1ess importance than it was in the last War. Secondly, this industry provides the only commercial outlet for compounds of thorium and cerium, which are absolutely vital to a country in emergency, as flame are carbons for searchlights necessitate large quantities of cerium fluoride. They are also needed for the manufacture of special glasses, luminous compounds for aeroplane equipment—which will make an appeal to my hon. and gallant Friend—for compasses and gun-mountings.

Obviously, these are all things of supreme national importance, and you can only carry out that work if you have a supply of compounds of thorium and cerium. The only way of maintaining the output is by maintaining the industry which provides the only outlet for it, and that is the gas mantle industry. That, in itself, would alone be enough to justify the proposals we are making, on the ground of it being a key industry. However much we may differ about the advantage of a duty for meeting abnormal competition, even the right hon. Gentleman, with his experience, was led to the conclusion that there were certain vital national industries which required safeguarding. The Committee then very naturally go on to consider whether, without the aid of a duty, the gas-mantle industry is likely to continue. They say you cannot take 1913 as a test, and again they are right because, of course, this is an industry which developed in the War, and was carried on afterwards. This industry was comparatively small in this country before the War. Then the Committee considered what was the effect of the duty put on. They say that the duty failed in its purpose because it was only in operation during a particularly exceptional time, when the mark was crashing down by millions and tens of millions at a time, and consequently, at the price quoted, even with the aid of the duty, no manufacturer could hope to compete.

The Committee then went on to the question of imports, and found that, whereas the imports in 1920 were £78,000 gross, they rose in 1921 to £111,000, in 1924 to £165,000, and this year they are at the rate of anything from £200,000 to £210,000. And they observe in paragraph 20 that during the years 1921 to 1924 importations were at such a rate that British machinery and British factories were largely unemployed. They state that German makers are able to sell at prices with which our manufacturers cannot compete, and they proceed to consider all the advantages which the Germans enjoy. In the first place, they find that overhead charges are lower, and the rate of overhead charges must depend on whether factories are full or empty. They find that labour in Germany is cheaper, and they go into that in some detail in a later paragraph to which I will refer. They find that Germany has an advantage in the cheaper rate of wages, and they say that competition has gravely reduced employment in the industry.

Then in paragraph 28 they add that the numbers employed had not varied greatly in the last three years, though these years were much below 1921, and with respect to the labour employed were much below the full capacity of the buildings and plant. In another section of the Report they state that manufacturers are being forced to sell at prices which cannot show a profit, and therefore, obviously are not likely to continue even on the scale on which they are producing at the present time. They go into a very careful investigation then, and they set out the wages in tables. The wages in this country are given at 6½d., while the wages in Germany, accepting certain figures put in by the Germans, are 5id. If we accept those figures there is a difference of 17 per cent. There is, no doubt about the British figure. It was not challenged, while with regard to the the German wages, very much lower figures were put in by the applicants, but the Committee also treat with considerable reserve the figures which were put in by the Germans. Even accepting the German figures, there is a difference of 17 per cent. in the rate of wages.

They have apparently some difficulty in saying that the competition is unfair. I am not concerned, for the purposes of this particular duty, to prove that the competition is unfair, but I am quite content to found my case on the fact that this is an absolutely vital key industry. At the same time I think that the factors of the lower overhead charges and the difference of 17 per cent. in the wages give a considerable advantage to the foreign exporter to this country. They find, as a fact, that the English manufacturer cannot meet the principal competitor on equal terms. May I read two or three paragraphs from the report? In paragraph 43 they say: We may here summarise the conclusions reached. The British Gas Mantle Industry is certainly not able in its present state to meet its chief foreign competitor on equal terms. We do not think that it is likely to go under, but it may well dwindle into the production of special brands only. The German mantle undersells the corresponding British mantle, not heavily but quite definitely; and the home industry is, in consequence, working much below its full capacity. And in paragraph 46: The significance of the mantle lies first and last in the fact that it is practically the sole commercial outlet for thorium, which in its turn has been described to us as 'the bread and butter' of a group of secondary chemical products, 'compounds of thorium and cerium and other rare earth metals'. In paragraph 47 they say: Without going into detail on this part of the evidence we accept the broad fact that the continued production in this country of thorium and cerium is imperative; and we are satisfied that if mantles were not made here the economic production of thorium and cerium would go also, as there is apparently no prospect that they would find a sale abroad. Also, in paragraph 49: We are clear that it is a choice between giving reasonable help to this industry and maintaining the thorium and cerium industries in some other way of which we have no indication. Should the former course be chosen by the Government a flat rate not exceeding 6s. per gross (equivalent to one halfpenny per mantle) would in our opinion enable the mantle industry, reorganised and concentrated as it might be, to maintain itself in a healthy state. That recommendation the Government accept and submit to this Committee. The rate of duty which we propose is 6s., but we take also the equivalent duty of 4s. 6d. a 1b. on the impregnated hose, because plainly it would be im possible to give effect to the recommendation of the Committee if we merely put the duty upon the completely constructed mantle and left free the impregnated material of which the mantle is made. I have only one other thing to add. The right hon. Gentleman, the Member for West Swansea, suggested—I did not quite follow him — that there was something wrong in comprising this duty in this Bill, but why? If we are to put on a duty he would at once say that the proper way to do it was in a Finance Bill, in a duty-imposing Bill, founded on a Ways and Means Resolution. That is exactly what we are going to do, and it cannot be right to put it in a Budget and wrong to put it in this Bill, and we are taking advantage of the first duty-imposing Finance Bill founded on a Ways and Means Resolution to include this important and essential article. Therefore, I submit that whatever other criticism he may advance, he cannot attack us on the ground of financial precedent or financial purity.

Mr. HARDIE

I should like the right hon. Gentleman to give us some more information in regard to this question of the manufacture of gas mantles. I note that Page 8 of the Report says that the Committee find that, generally speaking, there is a substantial margin between the prices at which foreign mantles are sold to the wholesaler in this country, and the figures at which similar goods can be profitably manufactured here and sold to the retailer. I should like the President to tell us what were the conditions and arrangements in regard to procuring these things before the War, and after the War. In 1922 we were told in this House by hon. Members on the other side that Germany could produce gas mantles cheaper than we could: that they had all the raw materials. But the history of this matter must not be forgotten. Before the War gas companies were supplying gas at a calorific value of 900 British Thermal Units, and subsequently they were allowed to supply gas of a much less quality. To put forward some of the arguments put forward on the other side is to mislead the House, because the stripping of gas arose through the War, and from the necessity of getting explosive materials out of the gas. But there is no need to do that to-day. Mantles, too were not an invention due to the War, but came about as a natural consequence of development. And if Germany is better able to compete in the matter of gas mantles, which I doubt, it is possibly because she has been able to find a new deposit of monazite sand. In the old days with quality of gas supplied under Act of Parliament, a good light was given by the flat flame burner, but with the decline of the illuminating power, the flat flame burner went out, and the mantle came in.

I wish when we come to technical subjects like this the President of the Board of Trade would make himself a little more familiar with the details, and not take it that all members are ignorant of the subjects that come up here. I do not know who is responsible for this Report, but if I were looking out for a technical man I certainly would not take this man into my business. If whoever are responsible for this Report have drawn it up from dictation I forgive them, of course, because they had been earning their bread, but if they produced this Report posing as men throwing light on this subject, then I say they are in real darkness so far as this question is concerned. The mantle of light has not fallen on them. With all the money which has been expended, and no matter how high the walls of protection built round an industry, you cannot create efficiency by heightening the tariff wall round inefficiency. On the last occasion the gas mantle trade was before Parliament it was admitted by a Member who had great experience in it that we were incapable of producing the same quality of mantle as did other countries, and that the reason was that we had not gone thoroughly into the science of their manufacture.

Any one going into a house where they burn gas and use mantles can see whether a mantle has been properly made. A mantle which has not been properly made generally has at its bottom a dark disc. That is where the real science of "pouring,'' as it is known, in the hardening of the mantle, comes in. That has not been developed in this country. To protect inefficiency is, to my mind, the one way of destroying not only industry but trade itself. You can do what you like by Protection, but you will not increase efficiency in that way. Members on the other side of the House are responsible for the cuts made in education. Parliament has been responsi- ble for keeping back that development of elementary education and science that have given to Germany and other countries their "greatest minds." We spoke of them in that way before the War and we have a right to acknowledge the position now. If a country stands against the education of its children on the one hand, and seeks to guard ignorance by tariff walls, the Government of that country cannot be in the hands of intelligent or practical men. I hope the President of the Board of Trade will be able to throw some more light on this gas mantle question.

Mr. WIGGINS

I beg to move, in line 1, to leave out the words "during a period of five years," and to insert instead thereof the words "for a period of twelve months."

On reading the Report of the Committee it seems to me their chief aim and object has been to emphasise the fact that the two chemicals mentioned there are of national importance to this country. If we admit that they are of national importance to the whole of the population of this country I see no reason why the users of gas mantles should have to bear the whole cost of securing that national advantage. If it is a question of competition, the greatest competitor that the gas mantle has today and will have in the future is the electric light. We are all in our respective spheres advising people to put in electric lighting from the point of view of health and cleanliness, therefore the use of gas mantles is bound to diminish if you tax them. If it be true that these two chemicals are a national necessity, then the nation as a whole should bear the cost. I suggest to the President of the Board of Trade—and perhaps he will allow me to congratulate him upon giving us such a full exposition of the White Paper — that if he attaches such importance to the raising of the money he should find some other way of raising it.

Mr. LEES-SMITH

I beg to support this Amendment. There are one or two questions which I think it is necessary for us to put, in order to elucidate some of the very peculiar features of this Report which place it in quits a different class from any other Report which the Committee has issued. The main fact about this Report, which was not put very dearly before hon. Members in the speech of the President of the Board of Trade, is that, so far as the economic conditions of this industry are concerned, and so far as the questions which the right hon. Gentlemen asked the Committee to answer are concerned, the Committee has turned the application of the gas mantle industry down. The Committee was definitely asked to report whether there were unfair and abnormal conditions in reference to this trade, and they reported that on that part of their case the industry has not made their argument good. Therefore the Committee rejected it. Then one finds on the next page a kind of unexpected and surprise paragraph in which the Committee nevertheless still come to the conclusion that there ought to be a tariff, but they come to this conclusion by dragging in considerations which were not put before them in the first Instance, which are quite interesting speculations, but which were quite irrelevant to the examination which they were asked to undertake. This is a most peculiar Report. The Committee were asked to consider whether a certain industry needs a tariff, and after concluding that it does not they report officially that a tariff should be imposed on behalf of other industries into which it has not been asked to report.

There are some questions which the President of the Board of Trade ought to answer. The first is, if the tariff is to be imposed, not for the sake of gas mantles, but for the sake of those rare earth metals cerium and thorium, we are entitled to know whether a special examination was made of the cerium and thorium industries. These reports are presented to us in order that we may have the facts, but the Report we are now considering gives us no evidence at all about the cerium and thorium industries beyond a mere vague passage in one paragraph, and there is no evidence in the Report upon which we can form an opinion. Surely, if the argument be that cerium and thorium are, as the President of the Board of Trade said, absolutely vital to our security in time of war, there should be some actual evidence by which we can test that statement. Have the military and naval authorities been consulted? Was this placed before the Committee of Imperial Defence? Surely, they are the the body to decide. This, however, has apparently been inserted in a perfectly vague and haphazard fashion at the last moment, at the end of the meeting of the Committee, and we are asked to impose this duty on account of great strategical consideration on which we have no evidence at all.

If it be true, as the President of the Board of Trade stated, that these rare metals, cerium and thorium, are absolutely vital to our safety in time of war, and that our requisite supplies of them depend upon the gas mantle industry, then I say that this country is in a most precarious position; and, if that is all we are going to depend upon, it is perfectly clear that the next war will find us with a. grave insufficiency of these requisites upon which our security will depend. That is clear from the report. We are asked to provide this tariff because we are dependent for these war requisites upon the supply of gas mantles in this country, but as a matter of fact the output of gas mantles, in spite of the tariff, is going down every year. I see from page 5 of the report that in spite of the imposition of the duty under the Key Industries Act the output of gas mantles now is only two-thirds of what it was when that duty was imposed, and that indicates what the position is. The fact is that the future of gas mantles as an industry is obviously, as we all know from our own experience, dependent upon forces which no tariff can very much alter one way or the other. The future of gas mantles is precarious, because we are all of us turning more and more to ordinary gas for heating purposes and to electricity for lighting. The very progress of electricity for lighting means that the gas mantle industry is bound correspondingly to decline.

The Government have abandoned the case for protection of gas mantles on economic grounds. That will not be denied. They have put their case simply on the ground of military and naval security, and I venture to say that the case on the ground of military and naval security is largely in the nature of a hoax. I venture to say that if the Committee of Imperial Defence, if the naval and military advisers of the Government really believed that the security of this country was bound up with the future of the Gas Mantle industry, which is declining every year, they would not quietly tolerate that situation.

These products are quite new to me. I have asked the only gentleman I know who has any authority on these questions and have endeavoured to find out whether in the view of experts it is true the Army and Navy depend on thorium for security in the future.

Mr. LANSBURY

Might we know what thorium is? Why should we have these strange words? I believe it is a Bolshevik plot.

Mr. LEES-SMITH

The President of the Board of Trade told us cerium and thorium are rare earth metals absolutely vital to the country if war breaks out. I have been told that at this present moment the supply of thorium is absolutely insufficient for military necessities, and that the real point is that these luminous compounds that are made from thorium as by-products are better made from radium and that it is on their manufacture out of radium that the Army and Navy mainly depend already. Under these circumstances the President of the Board of Trade has abandoned the case for the duties on economic grounds. He has made no attempt whatever to prove any case for the duty on military and naval necessity and he has not put before the Committee any reasons why the Resolution should be passed.

Sir HENRY JACKSON

I should like to be allowed to reply to those technical questions on thorium. The hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) seemed to be exercised as to the source of monazite and its possibilities for the future. Previous to the War the complete control of monazite was in German hands, and the British mantle manufacturer was hampered in consequence. As a result of the War, and in consequence of the joint action of the Board of Trade and the India Office, the great monazite resources of Travancore have now been freed from the control of the German mantle cartel and are under the complete control of the British. This great source of thorium and cerium is for all time in British hands. The other great constituents of gas mantles. Ramie fibre, asbestos, and china clay, are also Empire products. Thorium and cerium are absolutely essential for the making of gas mantles. If these two metals were out of our control the whole future of the gas mantle industry would be imperilled. Therefore the President of the Board of Trade is right in saying that this industry depends upon the free ability of the British manufacturers to look to the Empire for the great sources of thorium and cerium in future. Largely relying upon the stability of that industry mills have been built in this country to develop thorium and cerium, but as a consequence of the unfortunate competition to which the right hon. Gentleman has so clearly and explicitly alluded, these mills are now only half employed, and one large mill, built for this purpose is at the present moment out of operation. If thorium and cerium are to be maintained for great national emergency, the future of the gas mantle industry must be maintained.

I have the honour to represent a Constituency in which 95 per cent. of British gas mantles are made, and I know to the full what the relaxation of the duty has meant to a very large number of my constituents. They have been hampered and unemployment has been rife as a consequence and they are looking forward —a large number of young girls who are in many cases the mainstay of their homes—to the imposition of these new duties. I am confident that the Minister is doing a great service for the unemployed in a very crowded part of South London, in addition to procuring for the nation for all time these invaluable metals which are so vital in war and peace.

Mr. MacLAREN

One hon. Member who has just been speaking about these mysterious oxides, says that we now control the mineral deposits. It is on these false assumptions that schemes of this kind can be got through. The main project is supposed to be to defend the gas mantle industry, but when you dig into the inquiry you find that it is really to defend the gentlemen who own and control within the Empire the natural deposits from which these by-products are taken. Before the right hon. Gentleman puts on the gag perhaps he will tell us, or we may find out, who are the people who control these natural deposits from which these oxides are made. It is. most appropriate that we should have come down to gas mantles. The more I have listened to these Debates the more I am convinced that in future a Member of Parliament will require to serve his time in some emporium dealing in gas mantles, brushes, cutlery or gloves. He will have to be capable of running a Selfridge's stores before taking a seat in the House of Commons. It is a very sad reflection to the community outside, with the distress there is, that we can fritter away time on such piffling matters as these. If we want to give employment, there are other ways of doing it. The whole performance to-day has been a reflection on the mentality of those who hold and control the reins of Government in this country, and a serious matter for thought, that with the condition of the people outside as it is, there should be those who, like jackasses, support propositions of this kind.

Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER

I want to draw attention, before the Committee come to their decision, to the fact that the gas mantle industry, as in the case of many of their industries applying for protection, is an instance of the strength of capitalism. There is a perfectly firm ring in the sale of gas mantles in this country. It is responsible for the sale of 95 per cent. of the British mantles in this country, and it is a little enlightening to read the Report of the Committee, who say: In regard to factory on-costs and in regard to general overhead and administration expenses, there is room for considerable improvement. I think the general experience is that there is the reverse of economy in this direct and it would be far better to revise the business from the standpoint of efficiency. Wherever combines of this kind grow up, they almost certainly lead to an application for a tariff. Tariff, ring and combine go hand in hand. That is why on previous Amendments I have asked, without getting any answer from the Board of Trade, whether, as a corallary to the policy of piecemeal amendment of the fiscal system by the imposition of tariffs, they are also going to take steps to deal with the trust and combine which always flourish under the cover of tariffs.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER

I have been asked to answer the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith), although I rather thought he was giving me information. Of course, I cannot accept the Amendment, which would destroy this proposal, and give no security to this industry. The hon. Member said that this industry does not need the duty, but the Committee say it does, and I ask this Committee to take the view of the Committee, against the view of the hon. Member. When the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was in office, he put thorium and cerium as among the essential things for safety and defence founded on the experience, of the War, and it is endorsed by the considered opinion of the Government's advisers. Then the hon. Gentleman said that there are other outlets. If the hon. Gentlemen can discover any commercial outlet for thorium and cerium other than gas mantles, he will probably make a substantial fortune, which he will be able to divide equally with the members of his own party. I wish him all luck in the endeavour. His last argument was strange. He said that the future of gas mantles is precarious; that the trade will probably dwindle still further. Therefore, he argued, let us bring in all the more German gas mantles so as to make our industry smaller still.

That seems neither wise nor prudent Nor can we count upon radium alone an these matters. We had better make sure of the cheaper material.

Mr. HADEN GUEST

Is there any possibility of raising the very low wages in the gas mantle industry? The present position is that the workers earn only a miserable pittance.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER

I very much hope so, but when you have an industry on the verge of bankruptcy, and unable to compete with foreign manufacturers, surely the best way of giving an opportunity to the workers, and giving the unions a fund out of which to draw, is to give the industry a chance of competing on equal terms, and making a profit.

Mr. GUEST

Is there any suggestion made to that effect?

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER

I am now making the suggestion that the Committee should pass this Resolution.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 179; Noes, 92.

Division No. 459.] AYES. [11.58 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Courtauld, Major J. S. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Albery, Irving James Courthope, Lieut. Col. Sir George L. Harrison, G. J. C.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hartington, Marquess of
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Applin. Colonel R. V. K. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Haslam, Henry C.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)
Atkinson, C. Curzon, Captain Viscount Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Balniel, Lord Drewe, C. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Barnett, Major sir Richard Eden, Captain Anthony Holt, Captain H. P.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Edmondson, Major A. J. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Blundell, F. N. Elliot, Captain Walter E. Hopkins, J. W. W.
Boothby, R. J. G. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Everard, W. Lindsay Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Hume, Sir G. H.
Bridgeman, lit. Hon. William Clive Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Huntingfield, Lord
Briscoe, Richard George Fielden, E. B. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Finburgh, S. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Jacob A. E.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Buckingham, Sir H. Frece, Sir Walter de King, Captain Henry Douglas
Bullock, Captain M. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Ganzoni. Sir John Lamb, J. Q.
Butt. Sir Alfred Gates, Percy Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Caine, Gordon Hall Glyn, Major R. G. C. Loder, J. de V.
Campbell, E. T. Gower, Sir Robert Lougher, L.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Grace, John Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Grant, J. A. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Lumley, L. R.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Greene, W. P. Crawford MacAndrew, Charles Glen
Cobb, Sir Cyril Grotrian, H. Brent Macdonald. Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Gunston, Captain D. W. MacDonald, R. (Catheart)
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Cooper, A. Duff Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Macintyre, Ian
Cope. Major William Hammersley, S. S. Macquisten, F. A.
Malone, Major P. B. Remer, J. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Rice, Sir Frederick Templeton, W. P.
Margesson, Capt. D. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Russell, Alexander Wert (Tynemouth) Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Merriman, F. B. Rye, F. G. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Sandeman, A. Stewart Wallace, Captain D. E.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Sanderson, Sir Frank Warrender, Sir Victor
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Moore, Sir Newton J. Savery, S. S. Watson, Rt. Hon, W. (Carlisle)
Morden, Col. W. Grant Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Wells, S. R.
Murchison, C. K. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Neville, R. J. Skelton, A. N. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Nuttall, Ellis Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wise, Sir Fredric
Pennefather, Sir John Smithers, Waldron Womersley, W. J.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Perring, William George Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden. E.) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Pielou, D. P. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Preston, William Storry Deans, R.
Price, Major C. W. M. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Radford, E. A. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Major Sir Harry Barnston and
Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Mr. F. C. Thomson.
NOES.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Ritson, J.
Ammon, Charles George Hall, F. (York, W. R, Normanton) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Barnes, A. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Saklatvala, Shapurji
Barr, J. Hardie, George D. Salter, Dr. Alfred
Batey, Joseph Harris, Percy A. Scrymgeour, E.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Scurr, John
Broad, F. A. Hayday, Arthur Sexton, James
Bromfield, William Hayes, John Henry Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Buchanan, G. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Cape, Thomas Hirst, G. H. Stamford, T. W.
Charleton, H. C. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Sutton, J. E.
Clowes, S. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Taylor, R. A.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Compton, Joseph John, William (Rhondda, West) Thurtle, E.
Crawfurd, H. E. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Tinker, John Joseph
Dalton, Hugh Kelly, W. T. Townend, A. E.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lansbury, George Varley, Frank B.
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Lawson, John James Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Day, Colonel Harry Lindley, F. W. Warne, G. H.
Duncan, C. Lunn, William Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dunnico, H. Mackinder, W. Westwood, J.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) MacLaren, Andrew Whiteley, W.
Fenby, T. D. Murnin, H. Wiggins, William Martin
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Gillett, George M. Owen, Major G. Wilson. C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenall, T. Palin, John Henry Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Paling, W. Windsor, Walter
Grenfell, D. R, (Glamorgan) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Groves. T. Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Grundy, T. W. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Sir Geoffrey Collins and Sir Robert
Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth) Riley, Ben Hutchison.

Main Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 175; Noes, 87.

Division No. 460.] AYES. [12.6 a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Albery, Irving James Briscoe, Richard George Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Cooper, A. Duff
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Cope, Major William
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Courtauld, Major J. S.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Buckingham, Sir H. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bullock, Captain M. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Balniel, Lord Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Butt, Sir Alfred Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Caine, Gordon Hall Curzon, Captain Viscount
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Campbell, E. T. Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Drewe, C.
Blundell, F. N. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Eden, Captain Anthony
Boothby, R. J. G. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Edmondson, Major A. J.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Elliot, Captain Walter E.
Bowyer, Capt, G. E. W. Cobb, Sir Cyril Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Everard, W. Lindsay Lamb, J. Q. Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Sanderson, Sir Frank
Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Fielden, E. B. Loder, J. de V. Savery, S. S.
Finburgh, S. Lougher, L. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts., Westb'y)
Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Luce, Major-Gen, Sir Richard Harman Skelton, A. N.
Frece, Sir Walter de Lumley, L. R. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony MacAndrew, Charles Glen Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Ganzoni, Sir John Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Gates, Percy Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Smithers, Waldron
Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Glyn, Major R. G. C. Macintyre, Ian Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Gower, Sir Robert Macquisten, F. A. Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Grace, John Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Storry Deans, R.
Grant, J. A Margesson, Captain D. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Greene, W. p. Crawford Merriman, F. B. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Grotrian, H. Brent Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Gunston, Captain D. W. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Templeton, W. P.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Hammersley, S. S. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Harrison, G. J. C. Moore, Sir Newton J. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Hartington, Marquess of Morden, Col. W. Grant Wallace, Captain D. E.
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Murchison, C. K. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Haslam, Henry C. Neville, R. J. Warrender, Sir Victor
Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Nuttall, Ellis Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Wells, S. R.
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Pennefather, Sir John Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Holt, Capt. H. P. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Perring, William George Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Hopkins, J. W. W. Pielou, D. P. Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George
Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Preston, William Wise, Sir Fredric
Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) Price, Major C. W. M. Womersley. W. J.
Hume, Sir G. H. Radford, E. A. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Huntingfield, Lord Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Inskip. Sir Thomas Walker H. Remer, J. R. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Jacob, A. E. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Rye, F. G. Captain Hacking and Mr. F. C.
King, Captain Henry Douglas Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Thomson.
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sandeman, A. Stewart
NOES.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Ritson, J.
Barnes, A. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Barr, J. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Saklatvala, Shapurji
Batey, Joseph Hardie, George D. Scrymgeour, E.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Scurr, John
Broad, F. A. Hayday, Arthur Sexton, James
Bromfield, William Hayes, John Henry Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Buchanan. G. Hirst, G. H. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Cape. Thomas Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Stamford, T. W.
Charleton, H. C. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Sutton, J. E.
Clowes, S. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Taylor, R. A.
Collins, sir Godfrey (Greenock) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Compton, Joseph John, William (Rhondda, West) Thurtle, E.
Crawfurd, H. E. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Tinker, John Joseph
Dalton, Hugh Kelly, W. T. Townend, A. E.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lansbury, George Varley, Frank B.
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Lawson. John James Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Day, Colonel Harry Lindley, F. W. Warne, G. H.
Duncan, C. Lunn, William Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. O. (Rhondda)
Dunnico, H. Mackinder, W. Westwood, J.
Fenby, T. D. MacLaren, Andrew Whiteley, W.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Murnin, H. Wiggins, William Martin
Gillett, George M. Owen, Major G. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Greenall, T. Palin, John Henry Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Paling, W. Wilson. R. J. (Jarrow)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Windsor, Walter
Groves, T. Potts, John S.
Grundy, T. W. Richardson, R. (Ho'ghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Riley, Ben Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T.
Henderson.

Resolved,