Commons Sitting of 8 October 1924

Preamble
The House met—after the Adjournment on Thursday, 2nd October—at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  TURCO-IRAQ FRONTIER.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made in regard to the negotiations on the frontiers of Iraq and the future of Mosul?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Ponsonby): The question of the Turco-Iraq frontier was referred to the Council of the League of Nations in accordance with Article 3 (2) of the Treaty of Lausanne. As a result, it has beers agreed at Geneva that the Council will delimit the frontier between Turkey and Iraq, and both the Turkish and British delegates have given undertakings that their respective Governments will accept any decision which the Council may adopt and will meanwhile maintain and respect the status quo, that is to say, the position as it stood at the time of the conclusion of the Treaty of Lausanne. The Council has resolved to set up a Committee of three persons to advise it and to lay before the Council all information and reports likely to assist it in reaching a decision, The Committee will receive all communications which the parties interested may wish to transmit to it, will fix its own procedure, and, if necessary, proceed to investigations on the spot. Its members are to be appointed by common agreement by the President of the Council and the member of the Council who has reported on the question. The appointments have not yet been made.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: While thanking my hon. Friend, might I ask him whether the fighting on this frontier has yet died down, and have hostilities ceased?
  Mr. PONSONBY: I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to give me notice of that question.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: When?

  MONTENEGRO.
  Lieut.-Colonel JAMESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has recently received any reports dealing with the internal condition of Montenegro; and whether he considers that any steps can be properly taken to alleviate the condition of the Montenegrin patriots?
  Mr. PONSONBY: The only report received hitherto from the newly appointed Vice-Consul at Cettinje was concerned with the capture and execution of a Montenegrin brigand. His Majesty's Government will await further reports before forming any opinion whether the comitadji movement which undoubtedly exists in Montenegro is really patriotic in character. They have no desire to complicate by any undue interference the difficult problem which Montenegro presents to the Serbo-Croat-Slovene Government.
  Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that, as in the case of the Sudan, the English Government have certain responsibilities towards the Montenegrins?

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    REGISTRATION OF TREATIES.
    Sir GEOFFREY BUTLERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, seeing that the Covenant of the League of Nations enjoins the registration of all treaties with the Secretariat of the League of Nations, and the subsequent publication at the earliest possible moment by the Secretariat of such treaties, he can inform the House as to the extent to which it has been found practicable by the Secretariat to conform with the obligation of publication; and

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    what practice in the matter the Secretariat is adopting or proposes to adopt?
    Mr. PONSONBY: The Secretariat-General publish the treaties registered with them at intervals of about a month in the League of Nations "Treaty Series."

    BRITISH NAVAL COMMITMENTS.
    Lieut.-Colonel POWNALLasked the Prime Minister whether, pending the issue of the promised White Paper, he will now inform the House what, if any, commitments have been offered or suggested with regard to the use of the British Navy by the representatives of the Government at Geneva?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. J. Ramsay MacDonald): It is proposed to lay at once a Paper comprising, in addition to the text of the Protocol, the resolutions of the Assembly and the Report submitted to that body on behalf of the First and Third Committees, which is in the nature of an explanatory statement. These documents should enable the House, while awaiting the Report of the British delegates, to form a comprehensive appreciation of the nature and effect of the provisions of the Protocol.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Could the Prime Minister say whether, before making the agreements at Geneva, they took steps to obtain proper naval advice which the Admiralty considered suitable, to advise them in their negotiations?
    The PRIME MINISTER: That is so. As a matter of fact, before the agreements were come to—before the matter was finally passed on to the Assembly—a special representative was sent from the Admiralty. I do hope hon. Members will not take as gospel any of the extraordinary statements which appeared in the newspapers while the meetings were taking place.

  RUSSIA.

    ANGLO-SOVIET CONFERENCE.
    Sir FREDRIC WISEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the total cost of the Anglo-Russian Conference, including the cost of the Allied diplomats at the Conference?
    Mr. PONSONBY: I do not understand to what the concluding words of the question relate, and I can only refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Sir W. de Frece) on the 14th July. Additional expenditure incurred between the 30th June and the conclusion of the Conference under the two heads mentioned amounted to £150 6s. 2d., making a grand total of £480 9s. 8d.

    BRITISH SUBJECTS (SAFEGUARDS).
    Mr. LUMLEYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has received any information to the effect that persons visiting the British Legation in Moscow are interfered with, and in many cases arrested, by the Soviet authorities?
    Major-General SEELYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, at any time during the present year, the British agent in Moscow formally protested to the Soviet Government against the espionage exercised over visitors to the British Legation, resulting in the arrest of certain of such visitors and, in some cases, their banishment?
    Mr. PONSONBY: Information has been received that on two occasions, in April and May of the present year, Soviet citizens visiting the British Mission M Moscow were subsequently arrested and interrogated by the Soviet authorities. Informal representations on the subject were made both here and in Moscow. In his last despatches Mr. Hodgson reports that he has now no cause to complain, and that, so far as he is aware, no incidents connected with the British Mission have occurred of a nature to justify criticism.
    Major-General SEELY: May I ask the Under-Secretary why it was that he told us last week that no such reports had been received?
    Mr. PONSONBY: If the right hon. Gentleman will refer to my replies to him last week, he will see that they were absolutely correct.
    Major-General SEELY: No. The question which I asked was identical with this, and I pressed the Under-Secretary to say whether any reports had been

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    received, and he said no such reports had been received. Has he received them since the question was put?
    Mr. PONSONBY: If the right hon. Gentleman will refer to his last question, he will see that it was not identical.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Can the hon. Gentleman say the date on which the reports were received?
    Mr. PONSONBY: If the hon. Member will put a question down, I will give him a date.

    GOLD.
    Sir F. WISEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the amount of the gold belonging to the former Russian Imperial or Provincial Governments and handed over to the Government of His Britannic Majesty by either of those Governments?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. William Graham): I have been asked to reply, and would refer the hon. Member to the answer which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave on the same subject to the hon. Member for Central Hackney (Mr. Franklin) on the 2nd October.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Will the hen. Gentleman say why it is that none of this money of the Russian Soviet Government has been used to compensate British nationals whose property has been stolen?
    Sir F. WISEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the amount of gold handed over to Germany under the supplementary agreement to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk and where it is deposited?
    Mr. GRAHAM: The amount of the gold in question was the equivalent of 62 million United States of America dollars. The gold was paid over to the British and French Governments in equal shares and applied to the reduction of Russia's War Debt. The gold has long ago been disposed of.

    PROPOSED LOAN.
    Mr. J. HARRISasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, before proceeding with the arrangements for the proposed loan to Russia, he will consider the advisability of endeavouring
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    to obtain assurances that no part of the loan shall be used to cover either internal or external military expenditure?
    Mr. PONSONBY: Yes, Sir. The purposes to which the loan is to be applied will be very carefully considered, as is already set forth in the Draft Treaty.
    Mr. HARRIS: Would the hon. Gentleman ask for a guarantee?
    Commander O. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Will he guarantee that none of this money is used to butcher Georgians?
    Mr. MILLS: May I ask whether it is a fact that in the proposed Treaty there is any provision for any loan?

    GEORGIA, AZERBAIJAN AND ARMENIA.
    Lord APSLEYasked the Prime Minister when the authority of the Union of Soviet Socialist, Republics over the independent Republics of Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia was recognised by His Majesty's Government; whether intimation of this recognition was given to the League of Nations; whether the armed forces of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics are now in occupation of Azerbaijan as well as Georgia and Armenia; and, if not, whether the de facto recognition extended to this independent Republic in January, 1920, will be extended once more?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The three Soviet Republics of Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are, as a matter of fact, members of the, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and recognition of this fact was implied in the grant of de jure recognition to the Government of the Union by His Majesty's Government on the 1st February last; the military authority of the Union extends to Azerbaijan as well as to Georgia and Armenia.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Can the Prime Minister say whether the price of this bargain with the Union of Soviet Republics was the betrayal of these Republics. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]
    Mr. PRINGLE: Arising out of the original answer, can the Prime Minister say whether the statement made by one of the British delegates at Geneva, as to the status of Georgia in relation to

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    the British recognition of the Soviet Republics, is in accordance with the statement that he has now made?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I think my hon. Friend would require to put his question in a more precise form.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Is the Prime Minister aware that one of the British delegates, namely, Professor Gilbert Murray, stated that the recognition of the Soviet Republics was only in relation to territories where the authority of those Republics was accepted, and that recognition was given by His Majesty's Government expressly for the purpose of showing that there was a reservation in the case of Georgia; and is not that statement contrary to what he has just said?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am afraid I must ask for a little more precise statement. A paraphrase of a speech delivered at Geneva is not quite good enough to base questions upon, but, so far as I can gather, that is exactly what I have said in my answer. As a fact—it is not a question whether it ought to be or ought not to be—as a fact, the military occupation of the Soviet Government extends to Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia, and in the recognition of that Government that fact had to be taken into account. So far as His Majesty's Government is concerned, it has not recognised anything except the existing facts of the case.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Are we to understand that, in fact, no reservation was made in respect of Georgia, and that, when a British delegate at Geneva stated in the Assembly of the League of Nations that such a reservation was made, he was not correctly representing the position of His Majesty's Government?
    The PRIME MINISTER: If the hon. Member will bring forward the precise words in which the statement was made, I will answer his question.

    ANGLO-SOVIET TREATY.
    Mr. T. JOHNSTONasked the Prime Minister whether he has received a resolution passed at the conference at Brighton on 22nd May last in favour of a treaty with Russia and a loan to be given to Russia; and what action he proposes to take?
    The PRIME MINISTER: As my hon. Friend gives me no indication of the conference to which he refers, my answer must be in the negative.
    Mr. PRINGLE: On a point of Order. I wish for a ruling from you, Sir, regarding the appearance of such questions on the Paper. On frequent occasions it has been ruled from tins Chair and by the Clerks at the Table that no questions are allowed, either to the Prime Minister or to any other Minister, regarding any unofficial conference, unless—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—yes, unless the resolutions referred to are resolutions which specifically direct that the views are to be brought to the notice of the Prime Minister?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I assumed that that was so in this case.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Arising out of the original question and answer, may I ask the Prime Minister specifically if he has received a resolution, passed unanimously by the National Liberal Federation at Brighton, in which a recommendation was unanimously passed in favour of a loan to Russia, with only one proviso, that such a loan should not be spent for military purposes bat for productive purposes?
    Mr. MASTERMAN: Is the Prime Minister aware that that the terms of this question are—no dould unconsciously—entirely misleading; that in the report, to which my hon. Friend has referred, it was stated that no loan under any circumstances should be given to Russia by the British Government or as a guaranteed loan to Russia and that—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"]
    Mr. SPEAKER: I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman might put down an unstarred question asking for the text of the resolution.
    Mr. MASTERMAN: On a point of Order. I myself and most of my Friends have had questions of that sort refused by the Clerks at the Table. Is it in order that Members should put down questions which are misleading? [Interruption.]
    Mr. PRINGLE: On the point of Order. Are we to understand—[Interruption.] I wish to know for the guidance of the House whether the practice, which in the

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    past has been disallowed to Members in every section of the House, and which has now been allowed for the first time to supporters of the Government, is to be extended to all parts of the House?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I had no idea that there appeared to be so much underlying this question. My knowledge is not so extensive as that of the hon. Member for Penistone. All I can say is that I will examine questions of this kind more carefully in the future.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: On a point of Order. Is it in order for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman) to describe a question on the Order Paper as misleading, when, as a matter of fact, it is a strictly accurate representation of the Resolution?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Clearly, there is a difference of opinion about that.
    Mr. T. THOMSON rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot permit more time to be taken up over this question.

  EGYPT.

    RITISH OFFICIALS.
    Sir HERBERT NIELDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has further considered the question raised concerning the treatment inflicted on certain British officials in the Egyptian State Railways and postal administration to which his attention was called during the months of April and June last; whether he is aware that the grievances still remain, and that the officials in question resent the manner in which the Egyptian Government has offered to meet the legitimate claims on them by offering as a gift sums less than one-sixth of the lawful claims of such officials, and of the means adopted by them to compel the acceptance of such proposal; and whether he is aware that one of the officials concerned has been altogether deprived of the enjoyment of the small benefit accruing from the offer?
    Mr. PONSONBY: The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Having regard to the danger of creating an embarrassing precedent, the decision of the Egyptian Government to accord the officials in question practically three
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    years' expatriation pay, to which they were not technically entitled, hardly seems open to criticism. It is understood that the official referred to in the last part of the question, by refusing his re-grading and by opting to retire with compensation, rendered himself ineligible for the benefit of the above decision.
    Sir H. NIELD: Would the hon. Gentleman tell us whether His Majesty's Government are indifferent to the rights of Englishmen?
    Mr. PONSONBY: Certainly not.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: Was this decision arrived at by the English Government on the advice and with the concurrence of the High Commissioner in Egypt?
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Before the hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask what is the "English" Government?
    Mr. PONSONBY: In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Bromley (Lieut.-Colonel James), the decision is with the Egyptian Government.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: I must protest against Scotland being insulted in this fashion.

    ZAGHLOUL PASHA.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD - BURYasked the Prime Minister whether he can give any information as regards the results of his conversations with Zaghloul Pasha; and whether the withdrawal of our troops in Egypt has been raised in the discussion?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the White Paper which has just been laid.

  GERMANY.

    BRITISH COTTON TRADE.
    Mr. E. SIMONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the serious view taken by the cotton trade of the danger that cotton goods from Alsace may be given preferential terms for importation into Germany after January next as against Lancashire goods; and whether he can give an assurance that, having regard to the loan which is to be made to Germany by this country, Germany will in return give to

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    Lancashire goods terms at least as favourable as those given to goods from Alsace?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Webb): I have been asked to reply. Yes, Sir. I am in touch with the cotton trade on this matter, which is engaging the earnest attention of His Majesty's Government. So far as I am aware, no arrangement has yet been reached between Germany and France regarding any preferential admission of Alsatian goods into Germany after the 10th January, 1925.
    Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: Is it not a fact, according to Lancashire opinion, that it is rather to the advantage of Lancashire than otherwise that there should be hostile barriers and differential duties?
    Mr. WEBB: I have heard that such opinions have been held with regard to certain branches of the industry. I must reserve my own opinion on that matter.
    Major BARNETT: Is there any real reason why we should not insist upon the most-favoured-nation terms before assenting to the German loan of £40,000,000?
    Mr. WEBB: I do not think this question has anything to do with the issue of the loan, which I hope is going on extremely satisfactorily.

    BRITISH TROOPS, COLOGNE.
    Mr. J. HARRISasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is the view of His Majesty's Government that British troops should remain in Cologne until certain obligations have been discharged by Germany, or whether it is proposed to withdraw the troops not later than January next year?
    Mr. PONSONBY: I can at present add nothing to the answer given by the Lord Privy Seal to a similar question by the hon. and gallant Member for Dulwich (Sir F. Hall) on the 26th of May last.

    PASSPORTS.
    Mr. HOGGEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he proposes to take any action to the effect that passports for British
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    subjects once granted should be free from renewal within at least a period of seven years?
    Mr. PONSONBY: The arrangements for extending the period of validity of British passports from two to five years which were announced in answer to questions during the last part of the Session are now complete, and will come into force on the 1st December next. On and after that date, passports will also be renewable for five years up to a maximum period of ten years from the original date of issue.
    Sir HARRY BRITTAIN: Is the passport to be renewable without any additional expense to the holder?
    Mr. BUCHANAN: In the granting of passports, is any differentiation made between rich and poor people?
    Mr. PONSONBY: No, Sir; there is no differentiation whatever between rich and poor.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: Will passports already issued be automatically extended for the period to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, or will the period be increased only in case of new passports?
    Mr. PONSONBY: Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put down a question.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House what useful purpose is served by passports?

  ROYAL NAVY.

    ROSYTH DOCKYARD (HOUSING).
    Mr. CLIMIEasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the necessity of preventing dismissals among workers employed in the Works Department at Routh, it is the intention of the Department to build suitable houses for officers and members of the staff employed in Rosyth by direct labour instead of letting out to contract houses, plans and foundations of which are already well advanced?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Ammon): One residence only for a principal officer of Rosyth Dockyard is under construction,

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    the preparation of site and foundations, drainage, etc., for which are being carried out by departmental labour. A contract is being let for the construction of the superstructure, as a sufficiency of suitable labour in the principal trades concerned is not available from men already employed in the dockyard. The execution of the structure by departmental labour would not materially affect the number or dismissals likely to be necessary.
    Major COLFOX: Can the hon. Gentleman say what proportion of ex-service labour is employed?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Notice should be given of that question.

    OFFICERS' MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE.
    Major BERTRAM FALLEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he can make any statement as to the marriage allowance to naval officers?
    Mr. AMMON: The Report of the Committee of Naval Officers, to which I referred during the Debate on Navy Estimates on the 31st July, has now been received, and is under consideration.
    Sir B. FALLE: May I repeat my question next Monday? Can the hon. Gentleman say if the Report is favourable or otherwise?
    Mr. AMMON: If the hon. and gallant Member will put the question again in a week or two, I will endeavour to answer it.

    ADMIRALTY YACHT "ENCHANTRESS."
    Mr. J. HARRISasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what was the total cost of reconditioning, staffing and running expenses of the s.s. "Enchantress" for the purpose of the naval review; and whether the Admiralty now proposes to follow the recommendation of the Geddes Committee and dispose of this vessel?
    Mr. AMMON: The reply to the first part of the question is £1,190, and to the second part, No, Sir.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does that mean we are now going to keep a yacht for the use of the Board of Admiralty, when the Conservative Government found it necessary to econo-
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    mise in this direction; and why is it the Labour Government require this useless vessel, which has no fighting value?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That would lead to an argument, which is not admissible at Question time.
    Mr. J. HARRIS: Is it not a fact that the previous Government agreed to accept the recommendation of the Geddes Committee in this respect?
    Mr. AMMON: No, Sir; it is not a fact.
    Mr. E. HARMSWORTH: What does the hon. Gentleman expect the cost will be of keeping the yacht in running order?
    Mr. AMMON: I must have notice of that.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Is it intended to keep the yacht in commission, with a reduced crew, permanently?

    DOCKYARDS (HOURS OF LABOUR).
    Major YERBURGHasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to the excessively long hours worked by yardcraft men employed in Government dockyards, amounting at Portland to as much as 85 and 79 hours, respectively, per week in the case of two recent weeks; whether he is aware that the stokers work three hours per week extra in addition to these hours in getting up steam; that overtime is paid for at an inclusive rate of 2s. for work after 7 p.m., by which time 12 hours' work is already normally completed, irrespective of the number of hours overtime that may have to be worked; and whether, in view of the Government's stated adherence to the principle of a 48-hour week, he will at once consider the limitation of hours and the employment of permanent relief crews from amongst the men recently rendered out of employment by the reductions in the tug services?
    Mr. AMMON: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply of the 28th May to the hon. and gallant Member for Devonport (Major Hore-Belisha). The circumstances of the employment at Portland are not considered to warrant the employment of relief crews to be composed of men discharged in consequence of the recent reduction in the number of vessels.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    ADMIRALTY.
    Mr. OTHO NICHOLSONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware of the conditions under which some members of the staff at No. 1, Whitehall, have to work in the repositories in the basement of the main building, where large quantities of ledgers and other records are kept, and that the place is very dusty and badly ventilated; and whether arrangements could be made to mitigate the disadvantages from which this staff suffers?
    Mr. AMMON: The condition of these, as of all office buildings in London, is within the responsibility of His Majesty's Office of Works and Buildings, and not of the occupying Department. But I see no ground for the Admiralty making any representations in regard to them, and no suggestion that there is any ground for complaint has reached me from the staff concerned.
    Mr. NICHOLSONalso asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware of the office conditions in the Medical Department, where one room used as a repository is badly ventilated, poorly lighted, dusty and dirty, and another room used for typing is unlit for human habitation, especially in winter months, and clerks are still working in draughty corridors; whether the Department observes any quota of cubic space per person and, if so, what it is; and whether he will investigate the grievances of the staff with a view to immediate action?
    Mr. AMMON: If the Admiralty had been aware that the staff of the Medical Department had any complaint to make in regard to their present accommodation they would, of course, have inquired into it and have communicated with His Majesty's Office of Works on the subject, but in view of the hon. Member's question, I will now refer the matter to my right hon. Friend.

    MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
    Mr. O. NICHOLSONasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the strong objections on the part of his staff to the use of the basement of the
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    Ministry for office purposes; whether he is aware that this part of the building was never intended for the purpose; that, as the basement is situated at the bottom of a deep well, it is impossible for any sunlight to penetrate; that work is only carried on in very dirty and depressing conditions; that the vaults, which are on the floor below the basement, were recently flooded with what was thought to be sewage, with the result that large quantities of chlorine had to be used, the smell making the conditions of the staff almost unbearable; and if he will consider whether the time has arrived to put an end to carrying out work in such unsuitable premises?
    The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Jowett): I have been asked to reply. I am aware that complaints have been made regarding the basement accommodation occupied by part of the Ministry of Health staff, but arrangements have been made to improve the ventilation and repaint the rooms. Whatever defects exist are common to all basements, and it is impossible at present to exclude basements from office accommodation. The flooding to which my hon. Friend refers was entirely due to a recent abnormally heavy fall of rain, ninny other buildings in the neighbourhood being similarly affected. A small amount of sewage was forced back into the building, and in the interests of the health of the staff the vaults were disinfected immediately the water had subsided. No chlorine was used.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    MOTOR TRADE (MCKENNA DUTIES).
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Minister of Labour the numbers of unemployed in the motor trade at the present time and for the corresponding period last year?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Mr. Shaw): The number of persons engaged in the construction and repair of motor cars, motor lorries, motor omnibuses, motor cycles, cycles and aircraft registered as unemployed at Employment Exchanges in Great Britain on 22nd September, 1924, was 21,475 as compared with 23,532 on 24th September, 1923.
    Mr. THOMSON: Does the Minister consider that taking off the McKenna Duties has increased, and not decreased, employment?
    Sir HENRY CROFT: Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask is it not a fact that some 3,000 of these people are now employed in driving Ford cars?
    Mr. SHAW: With regard to the first supplementary question, it is perfectly evident that the fears that were entertained by many people have not materialised. I have no information that 5,000 of these people have found work driving Ford motor cars.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: Is it not a fact that a very large number of skilled mechanics have emigrated?
    Mr. SPEAKER: We cannot pursue that question now.
    Sir KINGSLEY WOODasked the Minister of Labour the increase in the number of unemployed during the last three months?
    Lieut. - Colonel HOWARD - BURYasked the Minister of Labour by how much the unemployment figures in this country have increased since the repeal of the McKenna Duties?
    Mr. SHAW: The number of persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain at 29th September, 1924, was 1,198,800, compared with 1,009,444 at 30th June, and 1,048,261 at 28th July. I am not aware of any evidence that any part of this increase is due to the repeal of the McKenna Duties, but I take this opportunity of pointing out that a substantial part of the increase is not a real increase in unemployment but is due to administrative and legislative changes in the Unemployment Insurance Schemes which have brought on the registers unemployed persons who previously, not being entitled to benefit, would not have registered. Rather less than half the increase of 150,539 since the end of July is due to an effect of the Unemployment Insurance Act of 1st August in bringing on the registers for the first time certain classes of unemployed persons, particularly those out of work owing to a trade dispute at their place of employment and those unemployed for short or uncertain periods.
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    The withdrawal in February last of certain administrative restrictions on the grant of uncovenanted benefit had a similar effect in increasing the numbers counted as unemployed as compared with the figures prior to that date, but I am unable at present to give an estimate of the precise extent of this increase.
    Sir K. WOOD: Is it not a fact that these unemployment figures have been increasing week by week during the last three months, and that the week ending 29th September there was an increase of 18,000?
    Mr. SHAW: It is the fact that the figures have increased week by week, and I am trying to let the House know exactly what are the figures.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is it not a fact that since the repeal of the McKenna Duties and the lapsing of the Safeguarding of Industries Act—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]—the unemployment figures—
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is the same question again.
    Mr. B. SMITH: Is it a fact that a daily paper, with its usual veracity, cites the figures to be this morning 1,900,000 unemployed—I refer to the "Daily Mail"?
    Mr. SPEAKER: We cannot have a Debate on these questions. It is not fair to other Members.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Minister of Labour the present number of unemployed persons, men, women, and young persons, respectively, and the number working on consistent short time?
    Mr. SHAW: At 29th September the numbers oil the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain, including those on short time and not at work on that date, were 903,700 men, 223,900 women, 37,700 boys, and 33,500 girls. The only available figure that can be given separately for those on short time is that for persons recorded as being on systematic short time, namely, 21,100 men, 12,000 women, and 2,600 boys and girls. In accordance with the practice adopted from last March and onwards, these figures for systematic short time are included in those just given for the numbers on the

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    registers; but I may point out that in the figures published prior to March, those for the live registers did not include the numbers on systematic short time, which were published separately.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is it or is it not the fact that there are more persons unemployed to-day than when the Government took office?
    Mr. SHAW: I can state definitely the fact that it is not so.
    Captain Viscount CURZON: How many of this huge army of unemployed may expect to secure work during the winter under the proposals initiated by the present Government?
    Captain TERRELL: Has the Minister of Labour any evidence to show that a single unemployed person has been offered work since the Labour Government have been in office?

    BENEFIT.
    Mr. EGANasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to certain hardships connected with the administration of unemployment insurance; if he is aware that, in the case of a person whose unemployment pay has been suspended pending his appearance before a rota committee to prove that he is genuinely seeking employment, if he obtains work and is unable to attend the committee he loses his deferred pay as the committee cannot deal with the case in his absence; that where a man fully qualified as an insured person goes into business on his own account and after two years the business fails such person cannot qualify again for unemployment pay until he has 20 new stamps on his card; that men over 60 years are compelled to accept employment and travel long distances, as, for instance, from Merseyside to Barrow and Scotland, a refusal involving stoppage of unemployment pay; and that thousands of persons will be disqualified for unemployment pay after 15th October, 1924, because of insufficiency of stamps on their cards unless he decides to exercise his right to waive such condition; and whether he will revise the Regulations so as to remove such hardships?
    Mr. SHAW: As the reply is necessarily somewhat long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    Special arrangements have been sanctioned for dealing with a claim to unemployment benefit where it appears that the claimant is experiencing difficulty in attending before the local Employment Committee by reason of t be fact that he has obtained employment. A claimant who has been in business on his own account for two years is not necessarily disqualified for benefit until he has paid 20 further contributions. Each case is considered on its merits within the limits laid down by Statute The question whether an applicant who has declined an offer of employment in another district is entitled to receive benefit is determined under the procedure laid down by the Act, with which I have no power to interfere. The decisions of the Umpire, who is an independent authority, show, however, that, in deciding whether employment is suitable or not, regard is had to the age of the applicant as well as to all the other circumstances of the case. As regards the waiving of the first statutory condition, that 30 contributions shall have been paid within a stated period, I have decided for the time being to continue the waiver of the condition for all persons who have paid 12 contributions since entry into insurance, and also to waive the condition for persons who have not paid that number of contributions if the local committee recommends waiver.

    RELIEF WORKS (PURCHASE OF MATERIALS).
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Health whether, seeing that Parliament has decided that local authorities are to be free to buy housing materials in the cheapest market, the Government will now grant them the same liberty of action with regard to materials required for unemployment relief works?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Wheatley): I have nothing to add to the answer given to the hon. Member on this subject on the 20th May.
    Mr. THOMSON: In view of the fact that the House has decided in principle for the free import of building materials, will the Government not consider that the same should be applied to other materials used by the local authorities?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: The Government have considered that view, but have not seen their way to alter their policy.

    INTERNATIONAL LABOUR ORGANISATION.
    Sir G. BUTLERasked the Minister of Labour whether he can give to the House any information as to the results reached at the Conference recently held at Berne between certain Ministers of Labour on the feasibility of giving force to the recommendations of the International Labour Organisation's meeting at Washington in 1919?
    Mr. SHAW: It was agreed that for the present at any rate the proceedings at this Conference should be private, and I regret therefore that I am not in a position to add anything to the official statement on the subject which was published in the Press at the time. As indicated in that statement, which was an agreed report of the proceedings, the Ministers present were glad to find that on most points their views coincided entirely and that where divergencies existed they were not considerable. Thus the Conference closed with the unanimous feeling that common ratification of the Convention is possible.

  HOUSING.

    STATE-ASSISTED SCHEMES.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Health the number of houses at present under construction under the various State-assisted schemes and the number under construction in January last?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: On 1st September 52,930 houses were under construction in connection with State-assisted schemes; the number under construction on the 1st January last was 18,975.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: What is the number of houses under construction under the last Act of the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I shall be pleased to answer that question if notice is given.

    BUILDING TRADE (ARRRENTICES).
    Mr. E. SIMONasked the Minister of Health what steps he has taken to secure the fulfilment of his treaty with labour for an increase in the number of apprentices in the skilled building trades; whether he has set up local committees for this purpose; and what number of apprentices have been taken on since the passing of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924?
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Minister of Health if the recommendations of the employers and workmen in the building industry that one apprentice should be allowed to three craftsmen in the principal building trades is actually being carried into effect at the present time?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: The arrangements for putting into operation the proposals of the National House Building Committee for increasing the building resources of the industry are progressing rapidly but have not been completed. I hope to announce very shortly the appointment of a representative Committee whose principal duty will be to give practical effect to those proposals.
    Mr. SIMON: Does that mean that to-day, two months after the passing of the Housing Act, no effective step has yet been taken to increase the amount of labour?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: No. That only means that to-day, about eight days after we have resumed business, we have almost completed our arrangements.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Does that mean that no apprentices have been taken on since then?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I have had no report for the past seven days.
    Viscountess ASTOR: No, no! That is not what I mean.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the building trade has been in recess whilst the House has been up?
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: Does the fact that the building trades operatives have given notice to cancel the last treaty entered into affect the provision of apprentices?
    Viscountess ASTOR: Hear, hear! That is it.
    Mr. WHEATLEY: No. No notice that has been given applies to this scheme at all. Both employers and employés have, within the past seven days, informed that they will enthusiastically carry out the promises they have made.
    Mr. H. H. SPENCER: When the Minister stated that Socialism would come in 10 years why did he make a 15 years' treaty with the building trade?
    Mr. SPEAKER: This is not the time for that point.

    LOCAL RESPONSIBILITY (CIRCULAR No. 520).
    Mr. MILLSasked the Minister of Health whether he will issue a synopsis of Housing Act Circular, No. 520, which explains local responsibility in the advertisement columns of newspapers and through other forms of publicity used by previous Governments, in view of the widespread impression that this is not a matter of local responsibility?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I have given the hon. Member's suggestion careful consideration, but in view of the fact that the Circular No. 520 has already received a very wide publicity, and can be purchased through any bookseller for the sum of 2d., I do not consider it is necessary at the present time to take any further action.
    Mr. MILLS: In view of the fact that certain so-called newspapers have refused to publish this instruction, and in view of the fact that many residents in local areas believe that the fault is due to the Ministry, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of using the same process as previous Governments by posters and advertisements in the newspapers?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I will make proper inquiries, and ascertain whether it is necessary to take any further steps in that direction

    VACCINATION.
    Mr. E. SIMONasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the strongly expressed opinion of the Chief Medical Officer of the Ministry of Health that the public has taken dangerous advantage of
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    the facilities for obtaining exemption from vaccination, he will reconsider the action taken by him of 30th August in rescinding the Vaccination Order of 1923, and thereby making exemption easier?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: The answer is, "No, Sir."
    Mr. SIMON: Would it be a correct understanding of the reply to say that the Minister is deliberately acting contrary to the advice of the Chief Medical Officer of the Ministry of Health?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I can only give the hon. Member a statement of the facts. I cannot guide his understanding.
    Mr. BLACK: In view of the proved utility of the vaccination of infants, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to exempt the vaccination of infants from the provisions of the Statute?

    POPLAR BOROUGH COUNCIL (SURCHARGES).
    Sir K. WOODasked the Minister of Health whether he can state the amount of the surcharges of the district auditor on the members and ex-members of the Poplar Council for 1922–23 on account of the payment of wages and salaries exceeding those which could reasonably and lawfully be paid out of the funds entrusted to the council; and whether he is taking any action in the matter?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: The amount of the surcharge referred to for the year 1922–23 is £11,500. I understand that an appeal against it will be made to me, which I will in due course consider.
    Sir K. WOOD: Has an appeal been lodged, and why is he not taking action in the matter?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: As this is a case in which I shall have to act as judge, I cannot allow myself to be influenced by the House of Commons.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor wrote in answer to a request from the Board of Guardians sanctioning the payment of the wages and salaries in question.
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I am afraid at this stage I am not prepared to accept full responsibility for the action of my predecessor.

    WHITE FLOUR.
    Mr. HUGHESasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the disadvantages arising from the general use of white flour and the condemnation passed upon it by the Medical Research Council, he is prepared to take any steps to ensure the utilisation of the whole wheat grain in the manufacture of the nation's bread?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I understand from the Medical Research Council that they have not passed any condemnation on the general use of white flour, and I am advised that under the conditions prevailing in this country it would be not only unnecessary from a public health point of view but also impracticable to insist on the utilisation of the whole wheat grain in the manufacture of bread.

    LUNACY ACT.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Health how soon he proposes to carry into effect the recommendation of the Cobb Committee appointed by his Department, namely, that Section 79 of the Lunacy Act be posted up in the waiting rooms of public asylums so that friends, as distinct from relatives, of tin, patients may be made acquainted with the privilege, to which they are entitled by the Act, of making application to the visiting committee for the discharge of inmates, a privilege of which they have hitherto been kept in ignorance?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Pontypool on the 12th March, 1923, that in the opinion of the Board of Control there are serious objections to a general rule requiring that this Section should be posted up in waiting rooms. The revised rules of the Commissioners of the Board of Control, which are now awaiting statutory approval, provide that on the admission of every pauper lunatic to an institution for lunatics a notice shall be sent to all persons whose names appear as relatives or friends of the patient in the statement of
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    particulars accompanying the reception order as to the times and conditions of visitation, and in such notice shall be embodied the substance of Section 79 of the Lunacy Act, 1890.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Health if he will cause inquiry to be made with a view to ascertaining in how many instances during the year 1923 a private mental patient who had not been seen by a magistrate was, in the absence of any prejudicial certificate, deprived of the subsequent notice of right of appeal to a magistrate through the negligence of the managers of the institution in which he was received; in how many instances has the penalty for this negligence, as prescribed by the Lunacy Act, been enforced; and will he take immediate steps to secure the invalidation of all illegal certification effected in contravention of the Statute and founded on medical evidence alone in the absence of any judicial investigation or provision for appeal?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I am not aware of any such cases, but if the hon. Member will furnish me with particulars of any instances which are within his knowledge inquiry shall be mails in regard to them.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Health in how many instances during the last 10 years has the statutory penalty been enforced against the managers of any lunacy institution for detention of a sane patient or of one who has recovered his sanity.
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I am not aware of any such instances.
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the existing grants to boards of guardians at 4s. per head for maintenance of pauper lunatics is totally inadequate; and if he proposes to introduce legislation to remedy this state of affairs?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I cannot undertake to introduce legislation for the alteration of this grant at the present time.

    RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the Minister of Health if he is in a position to make any communication

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    regarding his negotiations with associations of local authorities and other interests concerned in the draft Rating and Valuation Bill issued by his Department on the 15th September, 1923; and if there are any immediate prospects of legislation on the lines of the Bill being introduced?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: As a result of the circulation of the draft Bill to associations of local authorities and other interests concerned, many useful suggestions have been received. The work of dealing with these suggestions is still proceeding, but I am not yet in a position to make any definite statement on the prospects of legislation.

    BOARDS OF GUARDIANS (PARENTAL POWERS).
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the Minister of Health from how many boards of guardians he has received communications urging the desirability of amending Section 1 (1) of the Poor Law Act, 1899, by substituting 21 years for 18 years as the limit of age of vesting of parental powers in the guardians?
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I have received communications on this subject from 95 boards of guardians.

    COMMISSION OF THE PEACE, BERKSHIRE.
    Mr. STRANGERasked the Attorney-General the number of magistrates for the county of Berkshire other than borough magistrates; how many of them are women; why there has been failure to appoint any women to the Bench since the present Government came into office; and why there should be such a wide difference between the number of men and women on the Bench in this county?
    The ATTORNEY - GENERAL (Sir Patrick Hastings): The number of magistrates on the Commission of the Peace for Berkshire is 234, including two women. This number, however, includes the names of nine men who were appointed before 1870, and an uncertain number who take little or no part in the work of the Bench. No appointments to the Berkshire Bench have been made since
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    the present Government came into office. The last appointments were made in December, 1923. My right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor is taking steps to review the position of the Berkshire Bench, and will consider the question of appointing additional women magistrates.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Is it because they are conscientious objectors or passive resisters?
    Mr. MILLS: May I ask whether the Law Officers of the Crown are prepared to consider an increase of these voluntary Justices of the Peace?
    Mr. STRANGER: Will the Attorney-General say whether, in making further appointments for the county of Berkshire, the Lord Chancellor will take steps to appoint more women; and does he think it right and proper that only two women should be on the Bench for Berkshire?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a question which has been answered. The House seems to have its thoughts elsewhere.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS (GANGWAY MATTING).
    Sir CHARLES OMANasked the First Commissioner of Works whether his attention has been drawn to the dissatisfaction of Members at the want of harmony between the new emerald-green netting placed over the gangways of the House and the new dark green morocco covering of the seats; and whether he will undertake to have this altered?
    Mr. JOWETT: The matting in question was put down temporarily during the present short Session, and will be replaced by matting of the proper tone as soon as the House rises.
    Mr. SEXTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware of the lamentable want of harmony on the benches, particularly below the Gangway; and if, in the exercise of his ingenuity, he can suggest a remedy, in view of the shadow of coming events?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask hon. Members to let us get on with the business. There are still a number of hon. Members desirous of obtaining information.

    LONDON AGREEMENT (RUHR OCCUPATION).
    Sir K. WOODasked the Prime Minister whether the statements recently made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the public Press expressing his disagreement with certain material parts of the London Agreement and his dissatisfaction with the decision of the French and Belgian Governments to continue the Ruhr occupation represent the present policy and opinions of His Majesty's Government?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The observations of my right hon. Friend represented views that were proper to discuss, and I would refer the hon. Member to the letter addressed by me on the Ruhr occupation to the French and Belgian Prime Ministers at the conclusion of the London Conference.
    Sir K. WOOD: Would the Prime Minister kindly answer the latter part of the question as to whether these statements represent the policy and opinions of His Majesty's Government?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The policy and opinions of His Majesty's Government are contained in the official announcements made at the London Conference and elsewhere.
    Sir K. WOOD: May I ask whether the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer do not represent the opinions of His Majesty's Government?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I said nothing of the kind.

    PUBLIC BUSINESS.
    Mr. BLUNDELLasked the Prime Minister of the Government will give facilities for the further stages of the Catholic Relief Bill?
    Mr. RAFFETYasked the Prime Minister if he proposes to give time during the Autumn Session for the remaining stages of the Industrial and Provident Societies (Amendment) Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am not in a position at the moment to make any statement in regard to public business.
    Mr. BLUNDELL: If the Prime Minister survives to-night's Debate, will he sympathetically consider the matter?

    ROMAN CAMPS (CAWTHORNE).
    Mr. EDMUND HARVEYasked the First Commissioner of Works whether he will consider the advisability of scheduling the Roman camps at Cawthorne, near Pickering, under the powers given him by the Ancient Monuments Protection Act?
    Mr. JOWETT: Unless in cases of immediate urgency, my Department awaits recommendations from the Ancient Monuments Boards before scheduling monuments. I am not aware that there is any need to depart from this practice in the case of the Roman Camps at Cawthorne. I have no doubt, however, that the Camps will be recommended for scheduling in due coarse.

    BRITISH ARMY.

      AEROPLANE ACCIDENTS (COMPENSATION FOR OFFICERS).
      Lieut.-Colonel POWNALLasked the Secretary of State for War whether officers of the Army who proceed on duty in aeroplanes are treated, as regards compensation in case of mishap, similarly to officers of the Royal Air Force; and what provision is made for their dependants in the case of death?
      The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Walsh): Army officers ordered to proceed on duty in aeroplanes are treated, in case of mishap, under the Regulations for disabilities arising during Army service, unless they are seconded to the Royal Air Force and paid at Royal Air Force rates, in which ease they are dealt with under the Royal Air Force, or Army Regulations, whichever are more favourable. The Army and Royal Air Force Regulations differ in detail but, taken all round, give similar results. Pensions, gratuities or allowances are granted to widows, children or dependants of officers who die as the result of being ordered to fly on duty under Regulations which are substantially the same in the Army and the Royal Air Force. The death of the officer is treated as if it had been in action, and a gratuity is issued to the widow in addition to pension.

      ARTILLERY (NORTHERN IRELAND).
      Sir C. OMANasked the Secretary of State for War whether the brigade of Regular British Infantry now quartered

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      in Northern Ireland is provided with the normal complement of artillery appropriate to such a unit?
      Mr. WALSH: There is not, as suggested in my hon. Friend's question, any normal complement of artillery specially appropriate to an infantry brigade. There is no field artillery in Northern Ireland.
      Sir C. OMAN: Is the want of artillery in the Army in the North of Ireland due to a military organisation of a new and strange kind going back to mid-Victorian times, or is there some particular political meaning?
      Mr. WALSH: I am not at all responsible for mid-Victorian organisation.

      MILITARY BANDS.
      Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD - BURYasked the Secretary of State for War why instructions have been given by him that all engagements of military bands for public or private functions must be submitted to the Musicians' Union before acceptance, seeing that the union have insisted that prohibitive rates are to be charged for functions much in excess of trade union rates?
      Mr. WALSH: This arrangement was made in order to facilitate the ascertainment of local rates, and to obviate complaints that rates lower than local rates were being charged. If the hon. and gallant Member will give me particulars of any case in which he thinks that the arrangement has been abused. I shall be glad to investigate it.
      Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Has the policy of allowing a trade union to dictate to the men under the right hon. Gentleman's control what they are to do now been permanently adopted?
      Mr. WALSH: I can only say this. It has always been recognised as being desirable that the rates charged by the military shall not come into unfair competition with those paid to trade unionists. That has always been recognised, long before this Government came into power. We have only endeavoured to carry out during the last six or eight months a practice which had long obtained.
      Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is very great dissatisfaction?

      RYE-WINCHELSEA ROAD.
      Viscount CURZONasked the Secretary of State for War whether it is proposed to close the military road from Rye to Winchelsea to heavy motor traffic; whether he is aware that this road is the main arterial road along the south coast; that such closing, if carried out, will entail a very large extra mileage for all commercial motor vehicle and char-á-bane traffic; and whether, before giving any such order, steps will be taken, in consultation with the Minister of Transport and the local authorities affected, to make the necessary arrangements to repair and maintain the road in a fit condition to take all kinds of vehicular traffic?
      Mr. WALSH: Yes, Sir, the road will be closed to heavy motor traffic from 23rd instant. I am aware of the circumstances, and the possibilities of an arrangement on the lines suggested in the second part of the question were fully explored before the decision was reached, but, unfortunately, without success.

"WORKERS' WEEKLY" PROSECUTION.

  PRIME MINISTER'S CORRECTION.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I rise to ask the indulgence of the House to make an explanation of a word that I wrongly used in replying to a question put to me on the 30th of last month. The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) put the question, which ended with these words:
  "and whether he has received any intimation that he would be personally required to give evidence on behalf of the defendant at the hearing?"
  It refers, of course, to the case we are going to debate to-day. The form and the suggestion of the question concentrated the whole of my mind upon myself and upon my own personal and separate part in this affair. I have been accused in certain papers of having known that I was going to be summoned, and with that knowledge, and because of that knowledge, of personally interfering. I have felt that very warmly. It was absolutely untrue. The accusation was one of those things that made one feel most resentful, and in concentrating my

  513
  ideas about a personal approach, on account of personal reasons, I used an expression which, when my attention was drawn to it two days afterwards, I had to admit went a little further than I ought to have gone, because it implied not merely that I, as a person, was either approached by the Attorney-General or approached the Attorney-General for personal reasons—a thing I had repudiated hotly—but it also implied that I had no cognisance of what was going on. I am very sorry. I did not mean to imply that. It was simply the concentration of my personal resentment at that gross imputation which made me for a moment forget that officially, and in conjunction with colleagues, the matter was talked about when no personal considerations were in our minds at all. If I have misled any hon. Members, I apologise for having done so.
  Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can supplement the statement he has just made. He has told us that his words were not intended to bear the interpretation which I think most of us put upon them at the time they were delivered, and when he says that, we accept it. It is the universal practice of the House. But what did happen which necessitates this correction? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us in what form he took cognisance of the matter?
  The PRIME MINISTER: That is going to come out in the Debate.
  HON. MEMBERS: Oh!
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think, as the right hon. Gentleman has corrected the statement, which is the only information we have yet had, and implies that he did take cognisance of the matter in some form or another, we are entitled before the Debate to have a frank statement as to how that cognisance was taken.
  The PRIME MINISTER: If the House desires it, I am perfectly prepared to give it, because I assure my right hon. Friend there is nothing in this transaction that need be hidden at all. My hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General is going to deal with it in detail, and in a connected narrative, so that all that I will do at the moment is to indicate what did happen. Of course, as soon as I saw
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  the report in the papers, I wanted to know the facts. I got the facts. On getting the facts, I then expressed a view upon the prosecution, a view not about what was going to happen to the prosecution, but about what happened. The Attorney-General reported to us later on the whole situation, and the matter was left in the hands of the Attorney-General.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The right hon. Gentleman says "the Attorney-General reported to us." I understand, or am I to understand, that "us" means the Cabinet, that the Attorney-General reported therefore to the Cabinet on the afternoon on which the question first came before the House?
  Sir JOHN SIMON: May I put a question to the Prime Minister? I think we heard him say that he expressed a view about the prosecution to the Attorney-General. Would it be convenient to him to tell the House what view he expressed?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I am perfectly willing to do what is necessary, but I think the House is not in a position to ask by a series of cross-examinations, and anticipate what is the legitimate business of my hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General. My hon. and learned Friend just tells me that he is the person who has been attacked primarily. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] The only point which I wish to assure the House about is this, that the personal allegation made regarding myself I rebutted in the answer to the question. If I had not made the slip in using a word in the heat of temper—I think if temper is ever justified, it was justified on an occasion like that—if I had not made that slip, none of these explanations would have been made, and all that my personal explanation asks me to do is to leave the House in precisely the position it would have been in so far as this Debate is concerned if I had not made that slip.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Surely the right hon. Gentleman will see that he purported, when the question was put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), to give a full answer to the question. He made a statement which he admits, owing to the circumstances in which he spoke and the feelings

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  with which he spoke, misled the House. I now ask him to give the clear answer which was due to the House and to my hon. Friend when the question was put. He tells us that on that afternoon a report was made by the Attorney-General "to us," and that he expressed a view upon it. Are we not entitled to ask from him, as we should have asked if we had not been—I do not want to be offensive—I do not say intentionally, but if we had not been unintentionally mislead by the Prime Minister a week ago, to whom was that report made, and what was the opinion which the Prime Minister expressed? This is not primarily, if I may say so, a matter for the Attorney-General. It is a matter for the Prime Minister.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I propose to tell the House what the position was, but all I have to do in making my position clear to the House at the present moment in connection with this personal explanation is to put the House in possession of exactly what was in my mind when I answered the question.
  Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: May I remind the Prime Minister of the earlier part of my question. There were two parts of my question which I addressed to him. The first was directed as to what personal knowledge he had of the prosecution. It was the second part of the question which was directed to the question of subpœnas. I suggest to him he should now answer the first part of the question which I put to him, namely, what knowledge he had of the transaction generally?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The first part of the question hinges organically upon the last. [HON. MEMBERS: "Read it!"] I propose to read the question. Anyone who reads the question and what has been said and written, would know that the question was one as a whole—
  "Whether any directions were given by him"—
  that is by me
  "or with his sanction to the Director of Public Prosecutions, to withdraw the proceedings against Mr. Campbell?"
  No. That is what I said. In elaborating it, my hon. Friend asked
  "Whether he received any intimation that he would be personally required to give evidence on behalf of the defendant at the hearing?" — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th September, 1924; col. 16, Vol. 177.]
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  That is what I consider the offensive end of the question, which casts a light upon the first part of the question.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman refresh his memory as to the answer, and say whether he thinks that the answer, as he has left it to-day, is really a candid reply to the question put. This is what the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "I was not consulted regarding either the institution or the subsequent withdrawal of these proceedings. The first notice of the prosecution which came to my knowledge was in the Press. I never advised its withdrawal, but left the whole matter to the discretion of the Law Officers, where that discretion properly rests." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th September, 1924; col. 16, Vol. 177.]
  The Prime Minister has told us to-day:
  "The Attorney-General reported to us."
  He declines to tell us who "us" were. He has told us that he expressed an opinion, but he has declined to tell us what opinion he expressed. I ask him who "us" were, before whom the Attorney-General was called, and to whom he reported, and what was the opinion which the Prime Minister expressed on the very afternoon on which these questions were asked.
  The PRIME MINISTER: The right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong about his dates, but we will pass that. The point is this. The only mistake in my answer was to use the word "consulted," and technically if one would care—I do not care—to use the English language with technical accuracy that is perfectly right, because I was not consulted about it at all. But it was pointed out that that might include something more than the technical use of the word. It was that there should be no lack of candour between the House and myself that I have asked for a chance to make this explanation. I was not consulted regarding the institution of the prosecution. I knew nothing about it until it had been instituted. Therefore, in expressing a view about its institution, I Was not consulted regarding the action that led to its being taken. That is perfectly right, and there is nothing to withdraw and nothing to explain. What happened was that after — [HON. Members: "Ah!"]
  Mr. MILLS: Do not say any more.
  The PRIME MINISTER: If I require information about what any of my colleagues does, I am entitled to have that information, and, when I get that information, there is no Member of this House who can say that by receiving it I am asking to be consulted, or that I am consulted.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  "WORKERS' WEEKLY."
    VOTE OF CENSURE PROPOSED.

      ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S EXPLANATION.
      Sir ROBERT HORNE: I beg to move,
      "That the conduct of His Majesty's Government in relation to the institution and subsequent withdrawal of criminal proceedings against the editor of the 'Workers' Weekly' is deserving of the censure of this House."
      I cannot conceal from the House the sense of responsibility which I feel in moving the Motion which stands in my name on the Paper. It is a serious Motion, not because of its immediate consequences to the position of parties, but because of the effect which what we do today will have on the administration of the law in this country. I am very conscious that many matters of controversy will be raised in the course of this Debate, and that there will be certain differences of opinion, but I will venture some propositions which, I think, will gain the assent both of the Prime Minister and of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General. These propositions are as follow: If the administration of the law were to become subject to any considerations of political expediency then justice as we have known it in this country—[Interruption].
      Mr. SPEAKER: I think it will be just as well if I make it quite clear at the beginning of this Debate that I intend that all who take part in it shall have a proper hearing. I do not intend to allow interruptions. I intend that each side in turn shall put their case properly and quietly before the House.
      Sir R. HORNE: I was saying that if the administration of the law should become subject to any considerations of political expediency then justice, as we have known it in this country for centuries, would disappear. Civilised communities can only enjoy full liberty if the political executive is excluded from interference with the mechanism of the administration of justice. It is for that reason that the very salutary rule has been observed in this country that the Attorney-General, in forming his opinion on matters of prosecution, is entirely free from any political influence whatsoever.
      The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. J. Ramsay MacDonald): Hear, hear!
      Sir R. HORNE: He acts in a judicial capacity, and no Minister and no political party is entitled to interfere with him. If crimes were not to be punished or prosecuted because the delinquents belonged to a particular party, then the law would be mocked and retaliation by the other party, when it came into power, would bring about a condition of things in which justice would be destroyed. If there be any gift more than another which the British nation has given to the world in which it can take pride, it is that dispensation of even-handed justice which has characterised our race in all parts of the world and has gained for us the confidence of all peoples in our administration of the law. No greater blow, no more grievous blow, could be struck at our civilisation than that our Courts should be in any measure manipulated for party purposes. As I say, I expect the assent both of the Prime Minister and of the Attorney-General to these propositions. And yet the allegation which John Ross Campbell and his friends have made against this Government is that they have done these very things. They say that the excuse which was presented for Mr. Campbell before the Courts was untrue. They say that the explanation is one which they would never have offered and never would adopt. They say that their plea was not to mitigate the offence of what had been said, but to justify every word that had been used; and they say that the withdrawal of the prosecution was brought about by political pressure upon the Government and upon the Attorney-General. That is what they say. It is only fair, in a matter of so much importance, that I should not paraphrase or summarise the remarks and the statements which have been made by various people, but that I should give accurately the words in which these statements have been expressed. I should like to take, first of all, what Mr. Campbell says. He says:
      "It was no good will on the part of the Labour bureaucrats that caused the prosecution to be dropped, but simply the pressure of the rank and file."
      Then there appeared a statement from the offices of the "Workers' Weekly" on the 13th August by a certain Mr. Albert

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      Inkpin, who represents the political bureau of the Communist party. He makes a very grave accusation against the Government He says:
      "In view of the statement made by the Counsel for the prosecution, the Political Bureau of the Communist party desires to make it clear that no effort was made by Comrade Campbell to provide a defence such as that outlined by the prosecution as a reason for withdrawing the charge. Campbell's defence was justification, and he with the assistance of other comrades was fully concerned in arranging evidence to make this good."
      I do not go into the personal references which he then makes to certain distinguished Ministers on the Government Bench. I pass that by. But he goes on:
      "We wish to state that the withdrawal of the charge was made on the sole responsibility of the Labour Government under severe pressure from such well-known Labour Members of Parliament as Mr. George Lansbury, Mr. James Maxton, Mr. A. A. Purcell, Mr. John Scurr, and many others."
      That is a very definite and circumstantial statement, and made by a man who, so far as I can gather, is not opposed or hostile to these particular Members of Parliament whom he mentions. He commends Mr. Lansbury in another part of his article for being willing to put up bail for this Mr. Campbell who was being tried. But I think, after all that has been said, the House is entitled to know whether, in fact, any of these gentlemen who have been named did make any representations to any Minister of the Crown, and, if so, in what way and with what effect? In particular, I should like to ask—because the matter has been dealt with in many references in the Press—whether the hon. Member for Poplar did see any Minister or any official of any Minister on this matter. I beg the hon. Member's pardon: I mean the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). He has been so much associated with Poplar, that notorious community, that one naturally identifies him with it.
      Mr. LANSBURY: I should like to say that I am perfectly willing to preserve order, but I think the right hon. Gentleman has no right to insult a borough that is no more notorious than that of the right hon. Gentleman himself.
      Mr. MARCH: It does appear that Members can say what they like about
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      Poplar in a humorous way, but when anyone else makes a slip it is taken seriously. We are not allowed to take it seriously. But we are not going to allow these things to be said. I represent South Poplar—
      Mr. SPEAKER: The question of the importance of Poplar does not really arise in this Debate. I think we might pass it by.
      Sir R. HORNE: I intended no offence at all, and I am perfectly willing to substitute the word "notable" for the word "notorious." In fact, I should desire, so far as it is in my power, to use, in a matter of this kind, language of moderation in every respect, and to use no adjectives either of colour or of heat. But, pursuing the point which I had reached in my speech, I think the House is entitled to know whether the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley or any of the others whom I have named did make any approach to any Minister or to any person representing any Minister with regard to this matter, and we should be told what the representations were that were so made, and to whom they were made. In the course of this Debate, I hope the House will have an opportunity of being informed by these gentlemen themselves, if the Attorney-General is not in a position to give us this information. It is of prime importance that we should know in a matter of this kind what representations were actually made and what influences were brought to bear in having this prosecution withdrawn. But this sort of comment is brought to a climax in the "Workers Weekly" of the 23rd August. This is what is said in that journal:
      "Perhaps for the first time in England's fair island history has the course of justice in the Law Courts been changed by outside political forces into a triumph for the working classes over the capitalist classes, not by scoring a legal success, but by a plain revolutionary victory."
      That is a challenge which on behalf of the proper administration of the law in this country we are bound to take up, all the more so because from the 23rd August to the 30th September, although this kind of statement was being repeated in other forms, not a single protest was made by any Member of the Government, nor by the Attorney-General, whose official honour was affected by the state-

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      ments. We know now from the Prime Minister that on a date, which I imagine was the 6th August, Ministers had a report from the Attorney-General as to the proceedings. I shall have something to say at a later stage of my speech as to what that particular episode imported. But at any rate they had been made aware of the course of proceedings, and yet during the whole of that time while the public of this country was in a state of anxiety—[Laughter]—Hon. Members opposite will find, perhaps to their surprise, that the great body of people in this country desire to see the law properly administered, and that any suggestion of perversion of the law is a thing which does fill their minds with anxiety. During all that period the Ministers of the Crown, who confessedly knew the facts, took no opportunity to let the public know that these statements in any way divagated from the truth. The Attorney-General the other day made the somewhat startling statement that until he read the speech of the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway late in September he never knew the grounds upon which this prosecution had been withdrawn.
      The ATTORNEY - GENERAL (Sir Patrick Hastings): I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman does not want to misquote me. What I said, and what I have said in a written answer to an hon. Member to-day, was that to the best of my belief the first time I knew that Mr. Travers Humphreys had ever said the things which have been represented was when I read a report of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in a copy of the "Times" which I bought at Brussels.
      Sir R. HORNE: I do not know that the Attorney-General is differing at all from my statement, and I am even amazed at the statement which he makes now. I myself should like to find the secluded retreat in which I should be entirely free from the sounds of the world, and from the letters which private secretaries send to their chiefs with regard to matters which are going on in their office. It does affect one with amazement that for a period of weeks the Attorney-General, whose conduct in the administration of justice was being canvassed throughout the Press of this country, was
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      entirely unaware that a defence had been put up, supposedly on his authority and in his name—because after all he is responsible—which had been entirely disavowed by the people who had been charged and who stated loudly and blatantly that their defence was entirely different and was one of justification of the words which were used. In these circumstances it is not at all surprising if the Government have had judgment passed upon them by default in this matter. Even now, when we get the explanation of the Attorney-General, I am not sure that their minds will be very much relieved.
      It is obvious, as I shall show later, that the Attorney-General has not disclosed everything to the House of Commons. It is perfectly plain that there are lacunæ in the statement which he has made. There are contradictions, mutual contradictions between the various explanations which he has given to the House, for he states to us in one breath that this man was not prosecuted because he did not want to make a martyr of him, o and in another breath that he was not prosecuted because the Attorney-General was afraid that the prosecution would be a failure. He stated to the house on 30th September that he did not prosecute Campbell because he was not in a position of responsibility, and he stated to the House on 6th August, when he was replying defiantly to Members sitting on the, back benches, that a breach of the law had been committed, and that the editor who had been arrested had accepted responsibility. He proceeded further to give us a series of statements, several of which were in direct contradiction of what is disclosed, and apparently disclosed with truth, by the "Workers' Weekly." He says, for instance, that the article upon which this man had linen accused had been copied from sonic other paper. The "Workers' Weekly" reveals the fact that not only was it not a copy but that it was an article which had been directly instructed by Campbell himself.
      I would like to put this question to the Attorney-General. In his investigation did he discover that the handwriting of Campbell is upon a copy of the document which was seized? He says that one of the reasons why he did not prosecute Campbell was because he did not belong

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      to the Political Bureau, which evidently is the active force in the Communistic movement. But the "Workers' Weekly" discloses the fact that Campbell for some time has been a member of this very Political Bureau. I wonder whether this examination, which the Attorney-General made, was not really a very perfunctory one when, in fact, you find that there is so much disconcerting discrepancy between the facts and what he has represented. But the more closely you study the Attorney-General's statement the more you find that, so far from relieving one's doubts, it tends to increase them. If the House will forgive me I would like to read what the Attorney-General said on the 30th September in the House of Commons He said:
      "I was seriously concerned as to the degree of responsibility of Campbell, as in my opinion an unsuccessful prosecution upon such a charge would have been meet unfortunate. I therefore caused the fullest inquiry to be made, both as to the extent of his responsibility, and also as to his character antecedents, the latter being in my view of the greatest importance in a case of this kind. As a result of those inquiries the following facts were brought to my notice by the Director of Public Prosecutions, as being all the information which the police at that time possessed. Campbell was a young man believed to be of excellent character. He was not in the regular employment of the newspaper in question, but had been merely engaged for a short time to take the place of the editor who was away ill."
      I may stop at this point to say that Campbell was regarded by the "Workers' Weekly" as the editor. Whether, temporary or otherwise, he was certainly the editor in charge.
      "Although it might be urged by the prosecution that Campbell as acting, editor was technically responsible for all that occurred in the paper his responsibility appeared to be very limited. He had not himself written nor composed the article, but had merely inserted what was apparently an extract cut from some other publication. He could in no way be proved to be responsible for the policy of the paper which was controlled by a body called the Political Bureau of which, as far as was known, he was not a member, and with which he was not connected. His military record was exceptionally good. He had voluntarily enlisted for service at the beginning of the War. He had been severely wounded and thereby incapacitated for life, and had been decorated with the Military Medal for gallantry in the field." [OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th September, 1924; col. 9, Vol. 177.]
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      I think that the Attorney-General will agree with me that that last reference to the military record is entirely irrelevant to the question whether a charge should be presented or not. It is a very telling circumstance when you come to sentence. Every lawyer knows that these matters are not relevant to the actual charge, and no matter how good a character you have, if you commit a crime you are responsible for it. I would like to ask the Attorney-General had he not discovered that this Mr. Campbell, instead of being, as the Attorney General seemed to think, a somewhat raw and inexperienced person, was in fact an experienced journalist in this very kind of literature? Did nobody inform him that he had previously been the editor of the "Worker" in Glasgow? Some of us, who come from that district, are personally well aware of Mr. Campbell's career and character, and the kind of writing in which he frequently indulges. Was nothing brought to the notice of the Attorney-General of his connection with the Red Internationale?
      Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: That is not a crime.
      Sir R. HORNE: I am not saying that. I am only talking of the elements which the learned Attorney-General said influenced his mind in withdrawing the prosecution. Did he learn that at a conference in Moscow last year the Court of the Red Internationale insisted that the Political Bureau should be re-organised in this country, and that Campbell was appointed a member, and that he was elected a member of the Central Committee of the Executive of the Bed Internationale this year? Were all these facts known? Did he find that Campbell was affiliated to the Moscow Internationale, Article 4 of which says that a persistent systematic propaganda is necessary in the army, where Communist groups should be formed in every military unit? And is not that a circumstance very relevant to the crime with which the Attorney-General was charging him? I want to know, did he obtain any of that information, part of which was known to some very ordinary people with no exceptional means of information at all? Or was the inquiry of such a perfunctory character that nothing of that was disclosed? Here is the "Workers' Weekly" upon a

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      statement made by the Attorney-General in the House of Commons in explanation of his action. They say:
      "Now for the facts. The article on which the charge was based was not cut out of another publication. It was an article written on the specification of the editor for a special anti-war number of our paper. It was not a wild and irresponsible statement inserted in the paper by a young and inexperienced editor. It was a cold, deliberate statement of the party position, inserted by the editor, James Ross Campbell, who is a responsible member of the Political Bureau of the party. In the subsequent issue of the paper a similar article appeared. In the party manifesto a fortnight ago on war, the Political Bureau reaffirmed the policy contained in the open letter."
      I am afraid that neither the House nor the country is in a position to congratulate the Attorney-General on the efficiency or the success of the inquiry which he made into the facts of the matter. But I think that probably the time which was available to the learned Attorney-General was not quite sufficient for the inquiries which he attempted. Let me recall the course of events. On 5th August the office of the "Workers' Weekly" was raided, and Campbell was arrested. On 6th August he was brought before the Court. In the afternoon of the 6th August certain Members of this House put a series of rather angry questions to the learned Attorney-General on the subject, obviously hostile to the action which he had taken. These various people included, amongst others, the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), who suggested that many Ministers were just as bad or as good as this man; by the hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. Dickson), who said that if people were put in prison for charges like this the Labour party would lose half its members—
      Mr. SULLIVAN: On a point of Order. Lanark is a big place. We want to know whom you mean.
      Sir R. HORNE: I think it is the Hamilton Division or South Lanark.
      Mr. PRINGLE: No; the Lanark Division.
      Sir R. HORNE: I am sorry if the hon. Member for Lanarkshire (Northern) (Mr. Sullivan) thought he was reflected upon. There was also a question by my hon. Friend the Member for the Bridgeton Division (Mr. Maxton), who, with his usual cleverness, suggested the line
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      of retreat which was ultimately adopted and upon which the learned Attorney-General founded his answer to questions the other day. Then the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr) also took part in the questioning, and, being dissatisfied with the answer which he obtained, he said he would raise the matter on the Appropriation Bill, which was to be debated the same evening. Between the time of that question and some hour of the evening—according to the letter which the hon. Member for Mile End sent to the "Times"—before the Adjournment he received an assurance from the Attorney-General that the prosecution was to be withdrawn. That does not give very long for those full inquiries which the Attorney-General said he made and which induced him to withdraw the prosecution. At four o'clock he was determined to stand to his guns; a breach of the law had been committed and as the responsible Law Officer he was bound to see the law vindicated; but in the short space of time which I have described his view was changed. What had taken place in the interval? One thing, we know, did take place in the interval. There was a hurried summoning either of a Cabinet or of a conference of Ministers.
      The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. J. H. Thomas): I had returned from Ireland, having interviewed President Cosgrave, and the Prime Minister summoned his colleagues to hear the report of Mr. Henderson and myself on that day.
      Sir R. HORNE: I wish the Prime Minister had been here, because he showed some reticence in telling us what had really happened. At any rate, whether a special conference was called to consider this matter or not, at least there was a conference of Ministers at which this matter was brought up. The Attorney-General will deny that statement if I am wrong. My information is that in the meantime there was on that afternoon of the 6th August—I do not know precisely at what hour, but my information is that it was 6 o'clock—a meeting at which this matter was brought before Ministers. I cannot tell whether the Cabinet took a decision on the point or not. The Prime Minister has not afforded us any enlightenment on the actual proceedings, but he did afford

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      some light to a distinguished journalist only two days ago in an interview. He was complaining of the suggestion of having an inquiry, which he stated was as bad as a vote of censure.
      Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: "Worse."
      Sir R. HORNE: I think he said "worse." He stated:
      "But is it fair to ask us to accept a sort of roving commission, with power to examine every letter and minute, to take evidence on this suggestion or that winch may have been made, whether or not any of them influenced our decision? Who can say what did or did not influence us?"
      HON. MEMBERS: Read on!
      Sir R. HORNE: The next sentence is:
      "I am only speaking theoretically."
      I am in the judgment of the House as to whether I have not read the matter perfectly fairly. I could have understood him saying what did or did not influence the opinion of the Attorney-General—what did or did not influence the Attorney-General's decision, but he said:
      "What did or did not influence us—"
      I do not know whether the Cabinet did arrive at a decision or not, but these remarks suggest that they did, and, if that is so, you have just that improper interference on the part of the political executive with the decision of the Attorney-General which at the beginning I deprecated in the interests of the proper administration of the law. But let me suppose for a moment that the Cabinet arrived at no decision. I would like to know, was the matter discussed? Was any point of view put before the Attorney-General by various Ministers? Did they refer him to the trouble which had been created in the House in the afternoon, and indicate the embarrassments of carrying on a prosecution of this kind? The Prime Minister has admitted that he had something to say about the prosecution, although he had nothing to say about its withdrawal. I would like very much to hear what he had to say about the prosecution. I think the House, in these grave circumstances, is entitled to know what the deliberations of the Cabinet upon this matter amounted to, and to what extent they used their influence to affect the judgment of the Attorney-General. I read in an answer given by the Attorney-
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      General on 30th September that he simply intimated his decision; he was not talking about that meeting of Ministers at that time because we did not know about it. But if the Attorney-General arrived at that Cabinet meeting, or meeting of Ministers, simply to intimate a decision, then the time during which these elaborate inquiries were made becomes still more exiguous, and is limited to the period between four o'clock in the afternoon and six o'clock.
      These are matters which require explanation and some elucidation before our feelings of disquiet as to the administration of justice can be removed. But there is an even graver matter, as it seems to me, to which I wish to direct attention. The Attorney-General exhibited a singular lack of candour upon 30th September in informing the House of what he was doing and what, he had done. There was a question put to him by the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley, and I would say that this casts a very serious light upon the way in which the whole matter was treated. I ask the House to observe in particular, the form of the question and the form of the answer. The right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley asked this question:
      "May I ask the Attorney-General whether it was with his knowledge that the statement was made by Counsel for the Crown that the prosecution was withdrawn because representations had been made since it was instituted as to the meaning and character of the article?"
      Quite obviously, when right hon. and learned Gentleman asked whether it was with his knowledge that these representations had been made, that covered both the period before the statement was made by the prosecuting Counsel—it covered his instructions—and the period afterwards. It was difficult to notice at the time, but reading the answer now you will see, if you scrutinise it, that the answer given was perfectly accurate, but it deals entirely with the time after the prosecution had been withdrawn. The Attorney-General's reply was:
      "The first time I knew that Counsel for the prosecution had made that statement when a speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, who asked the last question, was sent to me a few days ago. I, to-day, requested the distinguished Counsel who conducted the prosecution to tell me what he had in his mind in making the statement to which the right hon.

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      and learned Gentleman refers, and he tells me that no representation of any kind was made to him, except that he understood it had been publicly stated in this House that that was the meaning of the article. I, therefore, sent for the copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT of 6th August, and I find that a member of this House said that the article contained mainly a call to the troops not to allow themselves to be used in industrial disputes. The learned Counsel who conducted the prosecution tells me he had no other information, except that he was told that that had been stated in the House."
      Then he goes on further in answer to, another question:
      "The right hon. and learned Gentleman may take my answer as strictly accurate. Until one of those gentlemen who have interested themselves in this matter sent me a cutting from the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech … I had no notice of any kind that Mr. Travers Humphreys had made that statement, and the first time I had an explanation of it was this morning at a quarter past eleven when I asked him to come and tell me what he had said."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th September, 1924; col. 11, Vol. 177.]
      Now I am within the judgment of the, House as to whether, upon a question such as was put by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, that answer is not an indication to the House that the only thing the Attorney-General knew about the statement which had been made by the prosecuting counsel, or had any opportunity of knowing, was at this subsequent period when he looked back. I certainly understood it, and I think everybody understood it as indicating that he had given no instructions at all to prosecuting counsel; yet the fact is that he had discussed with the prosecuting counsel on the 12th August, the day before the charge was withdrawn, the terms in which it was to be withdrawn. What happened was this? The right hon. and learned Gentleman will correct me on any detail in which I am wrong. I put it to him quite definitely, is it not the fact that upon 12th August he had a discussion with Mr. Travers Humphreys with regard to the plea upon which the prosecution was to be withdrawn? Is it not the fact that he put before Mr. Travers Humphreys the very explanations which he gave in the House upon 30th September as to the reason for withdrawing; that Mr. Travers Humphreys said those explanations were not good enough and did not justify a withdrawal of the charge; that the learned Attorney-General then said, with respect to the military service of
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      Campbell and the plea which had been put up for him by some Members on the back benches in the House to the effect that the article did not mean quite what it said and only involved an injunction to the soldiers not to help in industrial disputes—that upon those grounds the man was likely to get off, and that thereupon Mr. Travers Humphreys agreed with the learned Attorney-General that he should make the statement, which he actually did make, in the Court as to the reason for the withdrawal of the charge? The learned Attorney-General will be able to answer all the questions which I have put. If the facts, as I have stated them, are accurate, then I prefer to leave the matter before the House without any comment whatever. In fact, this ground of withdrawal is really nor a reasonable one or one which can stand the light of examination for a single moment. One has only to look at the literature which actually was published to see that the matter which is always mentioned first is not the refusal of troops to take part in industrial disputes but refusal to go to war—refusal to shoot down their comrades in other countries who are workmen like themselves. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] That cheer shows that that ground also appeals to some hon. Members of this House. Whatever be the proper view of that matter, I am not discussing the merits of the question at the moment. All I am discussing is this: That the charge which was made, the charge which the learned Attorney-General told his colleagues in the House was a grave charge and one which he was compelled to take up, embraced both of these things. It was withdrawn because it only meant one of them, or professed only to mean one of them, when, in fact, every part of the document has showing upon its face encouragement for the soldier to break his oath of allegiance and desert his duty in any question of war against an enemy. I have only to point to Campbell's own attitude upon this matter to make that fact irresistibly clear. Giving an interview on the day after he was acquitted, he said:
      "Neither with the knowledge nor on behalf of myself or the Communist party has any such representation been made to the authorities. On the contrary we were preparing a defence along the lines of

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      justification. It came as a great surprise to us to find that the prosecution was withdrawn.
      I do not intend to delay the House any longer. There are certain Members of the House who think that the proper way to deal with this matter would be by an inquiry. The Prime Minister has said he regards an inquiry as a Vote of Censure even worse than that which is promulgated from this side of the House. So far as I am concerned, personally, I am perfectly indifferent upon which ground censure takes place, so long as this matter is sufficiently exposed and an example is given which will prevent its repetition. I and my friends think that enough is now disclosed to justify the Motion. Without straining the facts or putting undue inferences upon them, enough has been elicited already to show that this charge was withdrawn without any proper investigation and with indecent haste. There was a whole week between the day upon which this decision was hurriedly taken and the time when the matter was to come up again, in which to make inquiries, and yet what was done was this—after sonic evidences of dissent on the back benches in this House and after a meeting at which we know this matter was before either a Council of Ministers or the Cabinet, the hurried information was given that the charge was to be withdrawn. Not only was there an inadequate examination of the facts, but, putting the best face upon it, statements were taken as facts which the very slightest investigation would have shown to be groundless. So far as the reason was concerned upon which the withdrawal took place, it was not only made apparent by a perfunctory examination of the documents that that reason could not stand, but it was disowned by the man himself who was let off, and it was never mentioned as a proper reason by the Attorney-General when he came to give his answer to the question On 30th September in this House. I say by the act of the Government, whose duty it was to support the law, the law has been abased and people who broke it have, ever since, been boasting constantly that the Government dare not enforce it against them. In that state of things there is sufficient for us. Without ascribing motives, without even making up one's mind upon the perplexing and
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      conflicting explanations which have been given of the devious course followed by His Majesty's Government, it is perfectly apparent to us that the House of Commons cannot contemplate in silence such a dereliction of a fundamental duty, and cannot pass over without censure an act which, if it were repeated, would strike a most deadly blow at our respect for law and justice in this country.
      The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: While this Motion is undoubtedly a Motion of Censure against the Government, I cannot conceal from myself that it is also a Vote of Censure upon me. Inasmuch as that it is so, I feel confident I can rely upon the invariable generosity of the House to allow me a fair opportunity of stating What I am anxious to tell the. House, and when I make a statement of fact they will at least give me an opportunity of finishing the sentence I am relying upon, before they question it. I am not going to ask the House to take from me any statement of fact at all in regard to which anyone at any time can say that it is either contradictory or unsatisfactory. I am going to do something which I venture to think no officer in my position ever had to do before, and that is to put before the House the statement of every person who was connected with this matter from beginning to end. The House will have before them the statements of the Public Prosecutor, drawn up by himself, unseen by me; of the assistant Public Prosecutor and of the prosecuting counsel. When the right hon. Gentleman who last spoke challenged me across the Floor of the House as to whether I would deny statements which he made I, personally, am a little sorry that he did not tell the House that the learned counsel who appeared in Court having, in his own house, written out a statement of everything connected with the matter, at my request, and before even showing to me what he had written, sent a copy to the right hon. Gentleman and also to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon)—[Interruption.]—
      Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. Members will please allow the sentence to be finished
      Sir R. HORNE: I should like to say that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is quite wrong in what he says. He did not send the document to me; I

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      learned of the information he had sent to others, but he sent no copy at all to me.
      5.0 P.M.
      The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I accept the interruption. It is quite accurate. A copy was sent to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Marylebone (Sir D. Hogg). I apologise to the House for the inaccuracy. I knew the Mover of the Amendment was to be the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley, and that the Mover of the Motion was the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, and I suggested that copies should be sent to both, but, in fact, I am told it was sent to the ex-Attorney-General, and not to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne). I do not think anyone can say that that was a malicious statement or an intentional exaggeration. May I just say this further—and I hope the House will allow me—that if at any time any responsible Member of the House had ever asked me to explain anything, and if before moving this Motion the right lion. Gentleman, whom I have known for 20 years, had said to me, "I cannot understand this; would you tell me what happened?" not only would I have told him but I would have said to him, "Go to Travers Humphreys, whom you and I have known for 20 years, and ask him yourself, and I would have said, "Go to Sir Archibald Bodkin, whom we have known for 20 years and ask for yourself." When one of the hon. Members of this House expressed a desire to see the instructions which were given in writing to Mr. Travers Humphreys, I felt bound to say that it was not in accordance with practice to hand them across the Floor of the House; but if the leaders of the party had wished me to do it, then all I can say is I should have done it at once. But nobody asked for it. I have them here; I am going to read them, and hon. Members in the House will have every word said by every living soul in this matter from beginning to end. If it takes a little longer than I would have wished, I do not think hon. Members will grudge me the time. So much has been said, and so much has been suggested, and unless I had thought fit to conduct a correspondence in the newspapers from day to day dealing With the statements that appeared in the "Workers' Weekly." I do not
      598
      know how I could have given the statement that I am going to give to the House.
      May I say this. I am not standing here apologising. If I had to do tomorrow what I was faced with in this case, there is not a cross of a "t" or a dot of an "i" that I would not have put in exactly the same place as I did put them. I do not believe there is a single lawyer in the country who will say he would not have done exactly what I did, when I have told the House every step and every stage—and I am sure that the House will be anxious to know the facts in order to give a fair decision on them I do not believe that this House is merely concerned with political games. I believe myself that, after the House hears the facts, they will desire to express their own proper opinion.
      The first thing I do want to say one word about is the position of the Law Officers. It seems to have been denied that in a case where the public interest may conflict with the strict exercise of his duty, the Attorney-General is not only entitled to, but, if he does his duty must, go to the Executive. Government to know what the public interest is. For instance, does a lawyer anywhere or any lawyer in the House say that an Attorney-General would be acting wrongly if he said this: "This is a case of sedition, in which in point of fact i think there ought to be a prosecution, but I desire the opinion of the Government whether one should be taken or not"? Does any ex-Law Officer say that that would be wrong? I am going to read to the House one letter which was written on the 31st January, 1919, to the Director of Public Prosecutions. I am going to ask the House what possibly might have been said about me if I had written this letter, of which I entirely approve, and of which I believe every lawyer will approve. It is directed to the Director of Public Prosecutions:
      "My dear Director,
      There can be no doubt, I think, that this speech is seditious"—
      A speech dealing with inciting soldiers to disobey their orders, the same sort of thing as in this case—
      "and that a prosecution may properly follow"—
      as in my case—
      "but it appears to me that the real question is one of policy, and therefore is a

      599
      question in the first instance for the Home Secretary and the Minister of Labour.
      Yours Sincerely,
      GORDON HEWART."
      I think every Law Officer would agree that Sir Gordon Hewart was right. What happened was that that letter was sent on by the Home Secretary to the Cabinet, and the Public Prosecutor received a communication from the Cabinet. I will read the letter—
      "I am directed by the Minister of Labour, with regard to your letter of 1st February that was sent by Sir Gordon Hewart to the Cabinet regarding the prosecution of the man"—
      whose name is mentioned—
      "to say this matter was considered yesterday by the Cabinet and the Minister understands that you will receive instructions from the Secretary of State for the Home Department."
      It was right, and I am going to show, not only that the Home Secretary, but I think I may say that every Attorney-General from Sir Frederick Smith, has adopted invariably that practice. It is one which I would unhesitatingly follow, if it had been the fact in this case that the Cabinet had said to me as a matter of policy: "We think this prosecution should not be abandoned." I would not have had any hesitation for a moment in telling you. I should have said: "I have only done what all my predecessors have done, and I venture to think almost invariably done." It goes far further. If after a Court has sentenced a prisoner to imprisonment at the instigation of trade unions, and a Home Secretary had said he would ask the Judge to take it off, what would have happened to this Home Secretary? I am not seeking to excuse what has been done in this case by speaking of something which other people have done. I only introduce that before I tell you the facts, so that every Member of the House may, and I am sure they will, exercise their judgment upon them, and may tell me at the end whether there is anything I have done wrong from beginning to end.
      The first question I find I am asked by Lord Birkenhead in the current Press, and by Mr. Winston Churchill is this: "What I want to know is, what were the instructions given to the Attorney-General upon which "—as Lord Birken-
      600
      head, I think, put it—" he decided to brand Campbell as a criminal? "I am going to tell the House all that I knew about this prosecution before I was asked the question in the House, and I am going to read what the Director of Public Prosecutions himself said. All I knew was this. The Director came to me on the 30th July with a newspaper, and I read it. He referred me to an old Statute of George III and an authority upon it. I considered it and I told him that in my opinion it was a question of whether or not this could be said to be merely what the headline described it, a question of troops in trade disputes, or whether it went further and could be said to be an incitement to mutiny. In my opinion, then and now, I think it went further, and was exactly as in Sir Gordon Hewart's case, a proper case for prosecution. I directed him to make inquiries to find out who was responsible for it and, if he could get evidence, to take such proceedings as he thought right. Not only that. It is obviously undesirable to mention the name of a person whom the police had under supervision, but I am not going to abstain from that if the House desires it. I am going to tell the House everything, and if anybody wants to know it I am going to tell it.
      The person whom I had in mind was one who had been previously convicted, who was regarded as a danger, and it was present to my mind, as to the mind of every Attorney-General who has had to consider these sedition cases, that far more harm than good is done by prosecuting the wrong man. If you get a proper case and it is clear that that man should be prosecuted, go on with it, but if you have any doubt about it, infinitely more harm than good is clone by giving any sort of advertisement or publicity to them. The name "Campbell" was not even mentioned or thought of. I am going to read to the House what the Director of Public Prosecutions himself said. I may say that in this letter the Director went into one or two other matters, and I do not propose to read that part of the letter. But I will hand the whole document to anyone who, wants to see it, so that he may read it for himself. It is signed by the Director himself, and I should be glad if anyone asks me to show it. It is an account of

      601
      what happened at the only interview which I had on the 30th July.
      "I made an appointment to see the Attorney-General on the morning of the 30th, and I saw him. I showed him the article and the report in the Justice of the Peace.' Both he and I formed the opinion that there was a prima facie breach of the Statute disclosed, and he gave directions that the person or persons shown to be responsible for the article should be prosecuted. Neither the name of Campbell or any individual as being responsible was mentioned at that interview, or at any rate was spoken of. I suggested that the editor was probably a person who might be made responsible for the article. Some name or names"—
      the Director has not mentioned the names—
      "of persons prominent and mischievous in promoting Communist doctrines were mentioned, and I expressed the view that it would be desirable if evidence were obtained to prosecute such persons or person as being responsible for the publication of the article. I told the Attorney-General that I would give directions for police inquiries to be made, so as to obtain evidence to fix responsibility, and the Attorney-General approved, and directed prosecution of such poison or persons as I considered the evidence of such inquiry by the police showed to be responsible."
      Can anyone suggest that there is anything wrong up to that point? The next thing that happened was this. On this bench of the House of Commons on the 4th August., five or six days later, the Home Secretary said to me that he had had a letter from some printers about the suggested prosecution of this "Workers' Weekly," and had sent the letter to the Public Prosecutor. I thereupon rang up the Public Prosecutor and asked him to tell me what was being done with regard to this prosecution. The Public Prosecutor was away. His assistant in charge did not know very much about it, and he wrote me a letter on the 5th August, which I am going to read to the House, and which will show that the first time I ever heard the name of Campbell or the charge against Campbell was the 6th August, the day after this letter was written:
      "Dear Attorney - General, — Re the Workers' Weekly.' Since I saw you this morning, I have looked into the present position of this matter, and find that on Saturday afternoon last a warrant was granted by Mr. Leycester at Bow Street for the arrest of one John Campbell for an offence against Section 1 of the Incitement to Mutiny Act, 1797. He will probably be arrested to-day or to-morrow, when the
      602
      magistrate proposes to grant a remand for a week. He has already told a police officer that he takes full responsibility for all that appears in the issue of the Workers 'Weekly' which includes the open letter to the Fighting Forces appearing in the issue of the 25th July, which is the subject of the charge."
      There is one more paragraph in the letter, in which he says he has looked into the matter of the printer, and the police do not think there is any evidence against him. I do not think I need read that, as it is of no importance. That is what I knew on the morning of the 6th, and on the 6th I had to answer a question in the House of Commons. As the House knows, those answers are prepared in the Department, and so little did I know about it that, looking at my answer, I find that I said exactly in substance what I have told the House to-day. I said that the editor had accepted the responsibility and had been arrested. It was perfectly obvious—for immediately that question was answered there were questions asked, I think from all parts of the House, but certainly from two parts of the House—that I did not know half as much about this case as a good many other people in this House. What was the right thing to do? What would anybody think was the right thing to do? An hon. Member was going to raise the question on the Appropriation Bill, and I knew absolutely nothing about it. I did not know who Campbell was, I knew absolutely nothing, and I thought at once that there were two things I must do. One was to have my view confirmed that this article was in itself a broach of the law, and, secondly, I must know if there were any other facts that I ought to know about Campbell.
      I sent for the Solicitor-General to come to my room, he unhappily being unable to speak in the House, although he is able to listen to what is being said, and I am sure he would not permit me to say anything which is inaccurate. I sent for him, and also I thought I must know whether anybody in the House really had got any information. The first hon. Member who asked a question in the House was the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), and my recollection is that I sent a message, either by my own attendant or somebody else, to ask him to come to my room and see the Solicitor-General and myself. He came. What I wanted to know from him was whether he knew any-

      603
      thing about this man Campbell. He gave me his and I will ask any lair-minded man in the House what effect it would have had upon his mind. He said he knew Campbell well, and he said: "You are all wrong about saying that he is the editor of this paper 'The Workers' Weekly.' What he really is is a man who is simply there temporarily while the editor is away ill." He told me something of the man's past history, and, mark you, I am accustomed to defending people, and I thought to myself at once what my position would be if I were defending counsel and the Attorney-General had o picked out as the one dangerous Communist whom he wanted to put in the dock a man described as a man who had had both his feet almost blown off in the War, who fought through the War from beginning to end, and who had been decorated for exceptional gallantry. I thought to myself what I would look like, supposing this were true, as the Attorney-General of England, putting in the dock at the Old Bailey, as the only dangerous Communist whom I could find, such a person as that.
      I am going to tell the House in a moment what the Director of Public Prosecutions told me, and he will tell you, that they could not get evidence against anybody else, and, therefore, my position was to be that I was to go down and prosecute, with all the weight of the Government, a man who would almost have to hobble into the dock, with his feet blown away—[An HON. MEMBER: "He pleaded guilty."]. Surely no one in the House is going to say that the Government must be censured because one man took one view in which many others have agreed. Anyhow, that is what occurred to me. What would anybody have done? Would not they have said at once that the thing to do was to send for the Public Prosecutor to see whether that was true? I will tell you what I did, but, before doing so, may I read this statement of the next person who comes in, and that is the Solicitor-General? I cannot help it if every statement, from that of the Director downwards, is inaccurate. I can only read what they say, and this is the statement of the Solicitor-General. After all, I suppose, as a Member of the Government, it may be said that he likewise is likely to be open to taint or pre-
      604
      judice, but I cannot help that, and I cannot prevent the fact that this is what he wrote:
      "In the afternoon of 6th August, 1924, I was working in my roman at the House of Commons, when the Attorney-General asked me to go and see him in his room. He told me that he had sent for Mr. Maxton to come and see him and that he wished to have some information about what I now know to be the Campbell case, but of which case, at that time, I had not heard. Mr. Maxton came in and informed the Attorney-General, in answer to his inquiry, that he knew Campbell well, that he was only acting temporarily in the office of the paper, and spoke of his war record. The Attorney-General then said he would at once make inquiries, as these matters seemed very important and might gravely affect the whole question. Mr. Maxton then left, and the Attorney-General asked my view both as to the legal effect of the document and as to the legal degree of responsibility and position of Mr. Campbell"
      Here is an expression as to the law with which I did not entirely agree.
      "I expressed a doubt, which I still feel as to whether the incitement in the document was sufficiently directed to soldiery to come within the Incitement to Mutiny Act at all. The Attorney-General was very concerned about Mr. Maxton's statement, as in his opinion, if true, it would very gravely affect the probable result of a trial, and on this point I entirely with him. I also agreed that immediate steps should be taken to ascertain the accuracy of Mr. Maxton's statement and that all material facts about Campbell should be speedily investigated, for I shared the view of the Attorney-General that an unsuccessful prosecution would be disastrous in the public interest. I had then to leave the House of Commons and did not return that night: since that time I have had no further connection with or knowledge of this case."
      I at once sent for the Director of Public Prosecutions, as it was, in my opinion, a matter in which the public interest was involved, and I said he must come to the Prime Minister's room so that he could tell us both what he knee about this man and whether what I had been told was true. I went to the Prime Minister's room, and—I am speaking from my own recollection—the Prime Minister was not in. I went in alone, and Sir Guy Stephenson came in afterwards, and I asked him to tell me if what this man had said was true. He confirmed every word of it. There and then, he and I, the Assistant Director and myself, discussed what was to be done. I told him that, in my view, this prosecution ought not to be allowed to go on. We should only be advertising Communism and running a

      605
      grave risk of an unsuccessful prosecution, and the Assistant Director himself called my attention to a case in which another Attorney-General had withdrawn a prosecution, and offered no evidence, upon an undertaking or a letter being given. The Director then and there suggested than, this course might be the proper one to adopt in this particular case. All that the Prime Minister, when he came into the room, had to do with it was that he was certainly at least as strong in his view as I was, that he took the view that the prosecution was ill-advised from the beginning, and he put the blame on the Director. I at once stopped that. I said I could not allow any blame to be put on the Director, and I said the responsibility was entirely mine. I propose to read what Sir Guy Stephenson wrote as to what happened at that interview. How could I get up in my place in the House of Commons and discuss what I was going to do in regard to the prosecution and say I was not sure whether I was going to withdraw it or not? This is what Sir Guy wrote about what happened on that occasion:
      "At five o'clock on the 6th August I went to the Prime Minister's room in the House of Commons in reply to a telephone message from the Attorney-General. The Prime Minister was not there when I arrived, and before he came in the Attorney-General inquired of me what I knew of the Campbell case. I replied that although Campbell had accepted responsibility for the article, he was not the regular editor of the paper, but only acting as a substitute, that there was nothing known against his character, and that he had a very good military record. On the Prime Minister entering the room, he said the Home Secretary had told him he had not authorised the prosecution, and asked me how it came to be done, whereupon the Attorney-General told the Prime Minister that neither Sir Archibald Bodkin nor I were responsible for what had been done, but that the sole responsibility was with him, the Attorney-General. The Prime Minister expressed the view that the prosecution of Campbell would give the Communists just the advertisement they wanted and that the prosecution would do more harm than good. The Attorney-General said lie had come to the conclusion that the prosecution ought to be withdrawn and that he would consider the question whether he should himself appear at Bow Street and state to the Magistrate the reasons for the dismissal."
      That was discussed because the Assistant Director told me that he had appeared himself under certain circumstances which were similar.
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      "In discussing the matter with the Attorney-General I had in my mind the case of —, which was afterwards brought to my notice, in which Sir Frederick Smith had himself appeared at Bow Street and withdrawn the prosecution against five defendants, in which the defendants had given an undertaking."
      May I say at once to Sir Frederick Smith, now Lord Birkenhead, that I absolutely agree with every single thing that was done on that occasion. But when I tell the House that in that case this had been withdrawn at the instigation of the strikers, and only because the defendants, five minutes before the Magistrate came into the Court, had agreed to sign an undertaking, I shudder to think w hat my position would have been if I had done the same. I am really not wanting to go into controversial matters, because I am not interested in what anybody else may have done, and it is no part of what I am saying to suggest that other people had not acted properly.
      I appeal to the leaders of both parties, who, I know, would be above party considerations, to tell me what I have done wrong up to that point. Supposing the House does not agree, supposing individual Members say, as some do, "This man would not have got off even on his character," supposing they say it was not unwise to select that one man as a Communist for prosecution, is that what is the charge against me? I did not see another living soul in the world except those I have mentioned. There is no living soul who has ever tried to speak to me on it, and is it to be said that I have acted in some way disgracefully? saw nobody else at all, and when I left the Prime Minister's room the only question left for discussion between myself and the Public Prosecutor was whether I should appear myself at Bow Street or whether it should be left, in order that there should be less advertisement, to one of the Treasury Counsel.
      The next thing that happened was that when I got back I was asked if I would attend a meeting, which, I think, I may properly describe as a Cabinet meeting. I hope I am saying nothing improper. If I had my way, I would welcome the chance of telling the House every word that was said by everyone at that meeting. But I am told I must not do it, and I am not entitled to say what happened in the Cabinet. But if I were entitled to do

      607
      it, I would tell the House with pleasure. All I can say is that I left that Cabinet meeting with a decision at which I had arrived interfered with by nobody, and at once, having come to that decision, the only other person alive to whom I spoke about this matter was the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr), for this reason: Inasmuch as I should have had to appear on these benches and tell the House publicly that I was going to withdraw the prosecution, I thought it most undesirable to publish abroad the fact that you were going to withdraw a prosecution five days before it came off. Therefore, I told him I was proposing to withdraw the prosecution. There was no other living soul I have spoken to on this matter, except that the next morning I had already told the Assistant-Director that, as he did not know much about this matter, the Director himself must come and see me, and, as he was in the country, he must telegraph there and then to the Director to come up and see me to-morrow morning, and bring the Assistant with him, so that I might know all that they knew.
      Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Which morning?
      The ATTORNEY - GENERAL: The morning of the 7th. I saw no one on the 6th. I am going to read to the House what Sir Archibald Bodkin had to say about it. This is Sir Archibald Bodkin's account of what happened on the morning of the 7th, and nobody, I am sure, can say I am giving an unsatisfactory account of this, because I am not giving one at all; I am only reading what Sir Archibald Bodkin said:
      "I received a telegram on the morning of the 7th August from Sir Guy Stephenson, and in consequence returned to London and saw the Attorney-General and Sir Guy Stephenson at the House of Commons. The Attorney-General said that he had decided not to proceed with the prosecution of Campbell, and f was requested to ascertain whether the magistrate would consent to the case being withdrawn on the remand day (13th August). I accordingly saw the magistrate, and on grounds which had been noted at the Attorney-General's room, ascertained that he would consent to the charge being withdrawn. I returned and told the Attorney-General, and later left London."
      He sets out all the grounds, which I got from nobody else in the world except Sir
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      Archibald Bodkin himself. Here they are. An hon. Member says, "Maxton." It is quite true that hon. Member was the first one to mention it, but he told me nothing which had not been confirmed previously. This is what Sir Archibald told me:
      "Campbell was temporary editor, and was acting under orders of the Political Bureau of the Communist party. He could not have been shown to have composed the article, although he took an active part in preparing the issue of the 26th July, and had denied having written the article, and could not say who had. He had never been previously charged, had an excellent military record, and been wounded severely in the War. The 'copy' for the article was printed matter, and apparently a cutting from a publication the origin of which was unknown and could not be proved."
      That is what Sir Archibald told me himself, and I will tell the House in a moment it was written out in the instructions he gave to Mr. Travers Humphreys himself. I want to deal with all these statements. Even the right hon. Gentleman said my explanations were so unsatisfactory. Is it quite fair to say they are unsatisfactory, at least to this point? May I just say how it arises, because there are many things which I have told the House in the past which I now know are not accurate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It really is not fair to laugh as though it were my fault. What I mean by "inaccurate" is that when I gave the answers to the House, I gave them on the information I had, and not only will Sir Archibald Bodkin's statement show that, but I have got it in the writing of Sir Archibald Bodkin, the information which I gave to the House of Commons myself. I could not see want the result of inquiries was, and I never heard what the Communist said about this matter. All I am tolling the House is what Sir Archibald Bodkin told me.
      The first point was the question of Campbell being the temporary editor, acting under the orders of the Political Bureau. It appears from what the Communist himself has said, that he was a member of the Political Bureau. I have made, inquiries to see what is the truth about that. Nobody can doubt Sir Archibald was acting in honest belief. Apparently what happened was there was some evidence that another Communist, who had said he was a substitute member of the Bureau, but this could not be used as evidence

      609
      against this man himself. All I ever knew nr heard of the Political Bureau was when Sir Archibald told me that this man was acting under orders, and was not responsible for the control of the paper. Another thing which is said to be unsatisfactory is about it being a copy from another paper. The House will remember I said it appeared to be taken from another publication. What the police traced was a piece of cardboard paper, pasted upon which was a print, apparently a column which they thought was cut from another paper, and not only thought it, but Sir Archibald told me the name of the paper from which they thought it was cut.
      That was the information I had, and the right hon. Gentleman suggested that my explanation was unsatisfactory because the Communist now says that he had it written. But is it not a fair thing for me to say, that when I am prosecuting the Communists, there is nothing too bad to say against them, but when the House is moving a Vote of Censure against me, anything a Communist says is to be taken as true. I can assure the House I am not seeking to make debating points. This question is far too important to me. I am telling the House what the facts are. There are several Law Officers here at this moment. Can any of them tell me that when they ask the Director of Public Prosecutions what information he has about a certain case, they expect to have to go and look through the police reports themselves? I do not believe that any person who has held the position of a Law Officer in his own mind believes for a moment that there is anything I have done which is wrong. I have not seen a living soul.
      From the 7th August, when I saw Sir Archibald Bodkin, I am going to tell the House what my movements were every day until after the withdrawal, and I say that because there seems to be a suggestion somehow or other that between the 7th and 13th something else may have transpired which may have influenced my mind. I do not think the House will want me to give corroborative evidence, but I have my tickets here if necessary. At six o'clock on the morning of the 8th, that is the day after I saw Sir Archibald, I left this country for France. I remained in France until the night of the 11th, and the only reason I came back then was
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      because it was my wife's birthday on the 12th. The reason why my wife was in London—and I have to mention this, because of a word in Sir Guy Stephen-son's statement, where he describes me as being worried. I do not want anyone to think I was worried about the Campbell case. It was because of some domestic trouble which was happening in my household. The reason—it may well have been that I did not pay enough attention to what Mr. Travers Humphreys said on the 13th—was because I was back in France myself, having gone back immediately after the 12th, my wife's birthday.
      May I tell the House what happened on the 12th? I asked a very distinguished lawyer, the Lord Advocate of Scotland, as a friend, to tell me what he thought was the worst thing in all the suspicion in this case, and he said: "Simon has picked out the worst, when he says it has been represented,' and that leads the public to think you have got bold of Travers Humphreys and put something into his mind, so that he, in fact, should go and tell the magistrate. I think that is the thing to which you ought to direct your attention." It was not until that was brought to my mind that I even went back to see where I was on the 12th. I am going to tell you how I saw Mr. Travers Humphreys on the 12th. I was not near the Law Courts, and not near the House of Commons. In point of fact, I was passing through. I was having lunch in my club, of which he is a member, and he, having been through the written instructions put before him by Sir Archibald Bodkin, and come to the conclusion that he himself having found out that on the copy of the article, which I have described as printed, there was a pencil note stating that the meaning of the article was the use of troops in trade disputes, and it was believed that that pencil note was in the handwriting of Campbell, he said that that, in his opinion, changed the views he had been instructed to put forward, and he wanted to ask me whether I would agree to the instructions being altered. In the written instructions, which I have here, there is a note at the bottom in writing. I have here Mr. Travers Humphreys' actual instructions, with the actual note.
      There is also an extract from the "Times" referring to a question which

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      was asked by hon. Members behind me, and the impression he was under, as it appears, was that they were pro-Communists. I say that because the attention of Mr. Travers Humphreys was called to this question which was put by the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) asking if the Prime Minister was aware that the article merely called attention to the calling out of the troops during trade disputes. Mr. Travers Humphreys took the view that the real case here, which ought to be put before the, House, was that this man on his character would have every chance of getting off, the jury accepting that view. I frankly confess here that between the 8th and the 13th I had never thought of the Campbell case again. I was hundreds of miles away. Everything had been discussed and decided, and the matter was in the most competent hands. If it had not been that Mr. Travers Humphreys—now to my bitter regret—had succeeded in tracing me to my hotel and then to the club of which he and I are members, he would never have seen me at all. I am now going to tell you in his own words what he remembers of this, and what he thought of this man, and how he regarded this matter. Here are the last two lines of a purely private letter which I have in my hand. Anyone may see it. It merely refers to the fact of the domestic matter about which I was worried and about which I have already referred. He goes on to say:
      "There is nothing which I have said or written, including this letter, which I object to being produced anywhere to anyone, and I am sending copies of my statement to the two ex-Attorney-Generals who are taking an interest in this matter, a course which I know meets with your approval."
      He said that before I had ever seen his statement. I suppose there will be no doubt about this statement which Mr. Travers Humphreys had written out. As two hon. Members have it, I do not know that I need read the earlier part. It says:
      "The instruction states that among the ground upon which it has been decided not to proceed were the following:

      (a) That Campbell was not primarily responsible for the article.

      (b) That his position as editor at the time was only a temporary one in the absence of the actual editor.

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      (c) That he was acting under the orders of the Political Bureau.

      (d) That his War record was a good one.

      (e) It was further suggested that I should state in Court that fact that proceedings had been instituted must be regarded as a warning that the Statute under which they were taken must be obeyed.

      With the instructions was an extract from the 'Times' of the 7th of August reporting what had taken place in the House of Commons on the previous day in regard to the prosecution. I had in fact seen in the public Press reports or other speeches to the same effect made outside the House of Commons. On reading the instructions it occurred to me that none of the grounds stated in themselves constituted any reason for withdrawing the prosecution—"
      HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
      The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well, now, hon. Members might listen—
      "though some of them might afford reason for thinking that the accused would be acquitted, which is the best, if not the only ground, for taking such a course. It was also not clear to me how far the statements in the House of Commons and elsewhere had influenced the mind of the Attorney-General. Sir Guy Stephenson attended a conference at my chambers that morning which I learned that the instructions had been drafted by Sir Archibald Bodkin himself. The Director was not available being out of town. I then decided that it was necessary to see die Attorney-General if possible in order that his exact wishes might be ascertained. After considerable difficulty we found that the Attorney-General was passing through town en route for the Continent, and was possibly lunching at a club at which he and I were members. I accordingly took Sir Guy Stephenson with me and found the Attorney-General there at about 2 p.m. The Attorney-General was anxious to leave the matter to my discretion, but at my special request he went through with me each item of the grounds marked (a) to (e)
      I gathered from the Attorney-General that he considered it quite possible that the prosecution would fail since he considered that a sympathetic jury, dealing only with a man of the excellent military record of Campbell, might well accept the defence already suggested by his fellow-Communists in the House of Commons and elsewhere—"
      HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
      The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I must disclaim responsibility for that—
      "that the real meaning of the article was a protest against the employment of soldiers in trade disputes and acquit the accused.
      The Attorney-General was also much impressed by the fact of Campbell not being

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      the regular editor of the paper or in general control of its policy. With regard to this last matter I pointed out that the evidence seemed to me to show that Campbell had published the article as editor with full knowledge of its contents since his handwriting appeared upon it and that he had accepted full responsibility for it"—
      That, I think, I told the House—
      "and the Attorney-General agreed to my omitting that ground from my statement to the magistrate, though it obviously affected his mind. He also agreed that the statement marked (e) might well be omitted and I accordingly struck out in pencil on my instructions all the grounds except (d).
      The statement which I made on 13th August to Mr. Leycester the magistrate was, as I believed, the statement which the Attorney-General desired should be made, although the language used was, of course, my own. The expression which apparently I used, 'it has been represented,' referred to the representations or statements in the House of Commons and elsewhere at public meetings above referred to, and to nothing else."
      What else can I do to satisfy the House of Commons? Is there anything? After all, I am on my trial. It is not a question of sympathy. I am not asking for sympathy. I want to know what is the case against me. I have listened to what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I do not complain of a word of his statement. What else does he want me to do? I can assure the House that if anyone had said to me: "Can I see the Director of Public Prosecutions?" I should have said: "Go at once." Not a living soul ever asked me. Mr. Travers Humphreys was open to the world. He might have said: "Ask the Attorney-General first." If I had been asked, I would have said: "Tell them all that you know." What is there still to say? What is there to conceal? What else can I do? Is there anything? Do they think I was not abroad at this time? Do they think I have done wrong in this matter? I am going to ask the House to bear with me a few moments longer. I know of nothing that I can answer; but if any person can suggest to me anything unsatisfactory in the sense that a further explanation should be given, I am only too anxious to give it. Every one of these statements is on the Table for any Member of the House to come and look at it. But do let me ask the House to consider what it is that is really being suggested, because we must face it. Is it really suggested that this matter of the prose-
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      cution of a Communist is a matter upon which I ought not to have received instructions from the Govern-tent? Is that the complaint? Because if it were true I would frankly say that not only have I done it, but it is right to do it. I am going to show how it has been done over and over again. I have now to say something which I am sorry to have to say, but I have been pilloried myself in the papers, and by no one more than by Lord Birkenhead. I have to say a word or two. I am bound to say one or two things in defence. I am not attacking him for what he has done, because everything has been in the papers. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and I know that there are things that are recorded in writing, and he can correct me if I am wrong. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"] I have been shocked personally and deeply hurt by some of the statements that have appeared in two letters from Lord Birkenhead which I am sure all Members and the country have read. I want to read these two statements. These statements seem to suggest that I have been guilty and in some way have departed from the high reputation of the office which I hold, but I can assure the House that nobody can put that too highly to receive my unqualified approval. This is what Lord Birkenhead said, talking of the duties of the Attorney-General in relation to a particular case, and a case only brought to his attention by the Public Prosecutor:
      "When I was the Attorney-General, the then War Cabinet, of which I was not a member, directed me to prosecute a certain person for sedition, and entered this direction upon the minutes of the Cabinet. The Director of Public Prosecutions brought this minute to me and asked for my directions. I told him that I would not even consider the question of instituting a prosecution upon its merits until the unconstitutional minute had been excised. Nor did I do so."
      He went on to say—under circumstances I am bound to tell to the House—that these facts were first brought to his notice by the then Director of Public Prosecutions who informed him that the War Cabinet had passed a resolution directing him to prosecute. He replied that the War Cabinet had no more right to direct the prosecution than the man in the moon, and that he would not even consider the

      615
      question until this unconstitutional direction had been withdrawn. May I appeal to the House? Does not that indicate to the world that in this case there was a direction given him to prosecute in a given case by the Cabinet in a matter of which he was completely ignorant, and that the Public Prosecutor had told him that the Cabinet had given him directions. Is that an unfair interpretation? I am bound to give this because I am on my trial. May I tell the House on 23rd May, 1917, there was a case in the police court which was withdrawn for reasons which were given. On the 17th May there was a conference presided over by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs which was attended by the present Home Secretary and by the Director of Public Prosecutions. At that Conference—and the terms can be seen in a publication which is now in the Library of the House—a direction was given to this effect:
      "That the Attorney-General should examine the list of persons against whom there was sufficient evidence to warrant proceedings under the Defence of the Realm Act, and that eight or ten of those who appeared to be principally concerned should be arrested and tried by jury at the Old Bailey."
      6.0 P.M.
      Those are the directions to which I am right in assuming Lord Birkenhead is referring. At that Conference the Home Secretary was present, and the Attorney-General (Sir Frederick Smith) was present from beginning to end. Why should he not be present? He was perfectly entitled to be there. I am not contending that he was right in everything he did, but what on earth is the object of pillorying me in the Press every day? I went to my Ministers, as every Attorney-General is bound to do, and has properly the right to do. Here I want to amplify something I have said. I have told the House that I have made an offer to show all these documents, information, and statements, and that I was prepared to let anybody see them at any time, and that also includes Lord Birkenhead. I can assure the House that, as far as I know, Lord Birkenhead has never approached me or asked me, and has never questioned me. Up to yesterday, or the day before, I received no message from him. I had no speech with him, telephonic or otherwise,
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      nor with anyone connected with him. On the 7th, that is, I think, yesterday, this letter was written to me from the Director of Public Prosecutions:
      "On the morning of Tuesday, 7th October (yesterday), I was rung up on the telephone by Lord Birkenhead who said he would like to see the papers in Rex v. Dingley, and that he had been in communication with the Attorney-General, and told him that he proposed to look at the papers at the office of the Director which he considered he was entitled to do as an ex-Minister of the Crown. He afterwards called. I showed him the newspaper report."
      As I have already said, and I say it again, I am sure there is a mistake somewhere. Nobody has asked me, nobody has ever come to me and said, "Show me the papers?" and here am I absolutely pilloried in every newspaper in the country. The sort of question which I am faced with is Lord Birkenhead's first question:
      "When the Attorney-General decided publicly to brand Campbell with the grave crime of sedition, what information was before him?"
      I have never desired to brand him with the crime of sedition at all. I am apparently expected to answer such questions as:
      "Does the Attorney-General really ask the public to believe that having directed a prosecution of this magnitude; having amazingly decided to recoil from it; he neither took the trouble to inform his subordinate of the grounds which were to be assigned."
      It is hardly fair to say that without knowing, but every Member of the House must have been impressed by what Lord Birkenhead said. I am not begging the point, and I am only asking the House, before they come to a decision, whether it is fair that I who for 20 years have been practising in the Courts should be treated in this way. There is not a Judge on the bench or a barrister who would ever dare to say that I had ever done anything dishonourable in my life, and there is no one outside this House who would dare to tell me I had lied to them.
      I am being tried, and I ask the House to let me say what is the position. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) will support what I have to say with regard to what was done during the War. There was great unrest. The Government wanted to get an agreement with the trade unions with regard

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      to the production of munitions, and on the 17th of May they directed that eight men who had been inciting strikes should be arrested. Immediately after they were arrested an agreement was made between the Government and the unions that these eight men, who were in the dock, were not bound by it, and five minutes before the case was called on they signed an agreement saying that they would be bound by it. The Attorney-General had told the. Court that these men had been guilty of a felony which would have made them liable to penal servitude for life, that he would send them to the Old Bailey and prosecute them before a jury—there was no suggestion of innocence or a defence outlined—but because five minutes before they had signed an agreement which the Government quite properly—
      Lieut.-Colonel Sir F. HALL: But you have not got any agreement signed in this case.
      The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Is it really suggested that where I went wrong was in not requiring this man to sign an agreement? All I am pointing out to the House is that at that time the Ministers were right. It was essential in the public interests that this should be done, because the very trade unions themselves said that if they did not get off, there would be another strike. It was because the trade unions said that themselves, and because the public interest demanded that they should be let off, that these men were let off, but what would have happened to me if I had let these men off? I can produce a case where this thing was done. I am only suggesting now that it might be worth while considering it. After a man had got three months' hard labour, and the unions said if he did not get that sentence taken off they would strike, thereupon counsel at the Court said the man, having appealed against the sentence, "I am now, with the full sanction of the Ministry of Munitions and the Public Prosecutor, in a position to ask the Court to reduce the sentence of imprisonment to a fine." Those things were actually done. I can give the case of a man who was charged and it was definitely stated that, unless this man was let off, 23,000 men would come out on strike. Counsel for the prisoner saw the Attorney-General, and
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      told him of this fact, and the result was that the Government held an inquiry and the Attorney-General sanctioned the withdrawal of all the proceedings. [An HON. MEMBER: "That was during the War!"] Public interest during the War was more insistent than it is in time of peace.
      I do not want to use a War example, but it is the principle of the thing with which I am concerned. Surely the public interest is concerned in a vital question of whether you will give an advertisement to a class of people who are simply waiting for this very sort of advertisement. Up till the 30th July I had never heard of the "Workers' Weekly." Had anybody in this House ever heard of it before? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] When I came along to the House I saw the "Workers' Weekly" being sold outside the House of Commons, a place I can confidently say it had never been seen before this agitation took place. I am only anxious to put forward the facts. I do not believe that this House is going to see me pilloried in the newspapers purely as the newspapers have suggested upon the issue as to whether it is desirable to have an election upon one issue or another. What I am mainly concerned about is myself. I am being charged, and it is no good saying I am not. When I got up and said there was a charge against me hon. Members opposite cheered and they appreciated that it was a charge against me, and now here am I pilloried still.
      I can assure hon. Members I do not know what I have done. Was I wrong in sending for the Solicitor-General? Was I wrong in asking the hon. Member tell me the facts, and having got them was I wrong in sending them to Sir Archibald Bodkin? Was I wrong in going with him to the Prime Minister? Was I wrong in coming to the determination I have expressed? What have I done wrong? I see the hon. Member for West. Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) is smiling and takes the matter very lightly, but I can assure him that. I am not speaking bitterly, and if I have said anything that can be so construed, I ask the hon. Member to forgive me and overlook it. It is not an easy thing for anyone to stand up here on a charge of this kind. It is all very well to say that it is part of a game. As I have already told the House, for years and years nobody has ever dreamt of mak-

      619
      ing such a charge against me. What do they think I wanted to do it for? As far as I know I have never spoken to a Communist in my life. [An HON. MEMBER: "Look behind you!"] I understand the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley and my predecessor say, "What is the good of it?". I do not know what it is I am supposed to have done. Is it that I was wrong in saying that I could not come to the House of Commons on the night of the 6th of August, and get up in my place and say that I was not yet certain whether I was going on with the prosecution or not? I thought it was essential that before there was any discussion about it one way or the other I should make up my mind. Is it necessary to have a Vote of Censure in order to challenge a Minister who makes a mistake? I can only say if that is so, then I am surprised. In conclusion, I wish to say that if there is anything now that any lion. Member will ask me for which is in my possession or that I can get, I will give it to him at any moment he may choose to ask for it.
      Sir J. SIMON: I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words
      "a Select Committee be appointed to investigate and report upon the circumstances leading up to the withdrawal of the proceedings recently instituted by the Director of Public Prosecutions against Mr. Campbell."
      I desire to say, in the first instance, that the hon. and learned Attorney-General—who is an old personal friend of mine, an old professional colleague and opponent with whom I have had a hundred fights—has, I realise, had from the House, as he ought to have, the fullest and fairest attention in the statement that he has made. I cannot help thinking that the hon. and learned Gentleman has, in portions of his speech, rather forgotten what is the really essential question that is involved. That is very excusable, for the position in which he finds himself is undoubtedly one which is likely to make any man rather fail to see what the most important issues are. In his speech from first to last, with a generosity for which his political colleagues ought to be eternally thankful to him, he has spoken as though the question raised here was nothing more than
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      some departmental issue affecting himself in the discharge of his own office. That, however, is not the serious question at all. The serious question here is the question of responsibility of political Ministers. It is only a week ago that, in answer to questions put in this House, the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General were so unfortunate as to convey to the House and to the country the impression that political Ministers knew nothing of the matter, heard nothing of the matter, and that from first to last it was simply a matter inside the Attorney-General's Department. That is the impression which these two Ministers most unfortunately conveyed. So far from wishing to speak hardly of the Attorney-General, or of the way in which be has endeavoured to bear the brunt of this, I want to make it plain at once that the need for inquiry is the need to discover to what extent his political superiors made any attempt to influence his mind. [Interruption.]
      The Attorney-General several times threw out the inquiry whether there was anything upon which he could inform the House which he had not told them. Yes, there is. He could have filled the gap which the Prime Minister insisted on leaving open in the observations which he made just before the beginning of public business. The Prime Minister interposed to tell the House that he had—doubtless accidentally—that he had, as he realised, used language which might well mislead this House and the public as to the extent to which he had anything to do with this matter. He told us—[Interruption.] This is a serious matter, and it is very desirable indeed that hon. Gentlemen who support the Government should attend. The Prime Minister told us to-day that, after this matter was brought to his attention, as he thinks in the Press, but at any rate or that day when these questions were asked—it must have been, of course, before the prosecution was reported, because the prosecution did not begin until eleven or twelve o'clock, and questions were put here at two or three o'clock, out I quite accept that—the Prime Minister said that after this matter was brought to his attention he made inquiry, he saw the Attorney-General, and he expressed a view about the prosecution. I interposed to say, and I think very naturally, that it would, perhaps, be convenient to know at once

      621
      from the Prime Minister what view he expressed to the Attorney-General. I have attended most carefully to the hon. and learned Gentleman, and the hon. and learned Gentleman has, unfortunately, not given us any clear account of that matter at all.
      The position as it now appears to be is this, and it is the matter which calls for inquiry in reference to the political colleagues of the Attorney-General. I altogether dispute that it is to be turned off into a criticism of his professional conduct. The important question, the all-important question, is this: What is it that the political colleagues of the Attorney-General had to do with this matter after it first came to the knowledge of the Prime Minister? ft is loudly asserted by the accused and by the friends of the accused, and it has been widely suspected in many quarters for weeks and months, that political considerations had something to do with it; and now that I have listened to the Attorney-General's speech, able as it was, and satisfactory as it was in many respects as showing his own individual conduct, he has left me, and I think he has left the House of Commons—[An HON. MEMBER: "No!"]—he has left some Members of the House of Commons in a complete fog and confusion as to the part which the Prime Minister and other Cabinet Ministers really played.
      Let me just point out this. The Attorney-General informs us that, after the question was put to him on, I think, Wednesday, the 6th August, by the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr), he, being perturbed in his mind, telephoned to the Director of Public Prosecutions and did—what? He told him to come to the Prime Minister's room. I am an old Attorney-General, and I know something of the sacredness of the Prime Minister's room, and no one is going to persuade me, and no ex-Attorney-General will ever be persuaded, that, if an Attorney-General telephoned to the Director of Public Prosecutions to come to the Prime Minister's room, it was because the Prime. Minister had said that he was not to see him. I want to know from the Prime Minister whether he had said that he wanted to see the Director of Public Prosecutions, what he wanted to see him for, and what he said to him when he did see him. Until matters of that sort
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      are investigated, it is really idle to pretend that the heart of this matter has been examined.
      Taking the most, as we ought to take—[Interruption]—may I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to give me a chance?—taking the most favourable view, as everyone would wish to do in the light of the Attorney-General's statement, the matter stands in this way: Ministers have allowed a great cloud of suspicion to arise, with one section of the community saying that they have surendered under pressure, and the most responsible newspapers of the country demanding what is the meaning of it. [A laugh.] It is no laughing matter. They have allowed that matter to remain in doubt and suspicion for weeks and months, and, even when the House of Commons has reassembled, the combined action of the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General cannot reveal to the House of Commons what political Ministers had anything to do with it. In these circumstances, I venture to submit to the House of Commons, or to any fair-minded man, that this is the most obvious case fur inquiry that ever was made.
      Let me point out a significance of dates which, perhaps, has not been quite apprehended by every Member of the House. These two dates which come into this story—Tuesday, the 5th August, and Wednesday, the 6th August—are two dates of some little significance in quite another connection. It was on Tuesday, the 5th August, that the Foreign Office, under the instructions of the Prime Minister, issued the official announcement that there was a rupture of negotiations with the Soviet Delegation and that no Treaty with the Russians would be signed. It was on the night of the 5th August, going well on into the small hours of the 6th August, that certain Members of this House, including some who are alleged to have interfered in connection with this Communist prosecution, were engaged in endeavouring to induce the Government none the less to come to terms. The very day, namely, Wednesday, the 6th August, on which this question was put to the Attorney-General, was the day when the Prime Minister was waiting to have the announcement made that the Soviet Treaty would be signed. As the Attorney-General has not told us, and as,

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      when I invited him, the Prime Minister refused to tell me, what was the opinion which he expressed about the prosecution, I will venture a view. Did the Prime Minister say this to the Attorney-General—did he say, "Well done, good and faithful colleague. I satisfied the Communists and agreed to a Treaty with Russia yesterday, after announcing the day before that I would not do it, and I now find that you, at exactly the same moment, are engaged in prosecuting the very people with whom I am trying to arrive at accommodation"? [Interruption.]
      Mr. SPEAKER: Order, order!
      Sir J. SIMON: It is no small matter for a Prime Minister, with all sorts of enormously important affairs on his hands, to concern himself with a prosecution initiated by the Attorney-General. [An HON. MEMBER: "Assuming he did so!"] All I know is that the Prime Minister has already stated to-day that he did so, and that he expressed a view about it. I gather that that happened immediately after Questions, and before the Attorney-General took the steps of which he told us. I gather, further, that on this most important date, within two hours, the Attorney-General was in a position to report to the Cabinet, and that he was called upon to report to the Cabinet; so that on this day, when the most important public business was being dealt with by the Cabinet—the Secretary for the Colonies says it was the Irish Bill, than which nothing could be more important—the Soviet Government was being discussed in the House, and we are asked to believe that twice over the Prime Minister and his political colleagues concerned themselves in this matter, and yet that no political considerations had anything in the world to do with it There never was a more extraordinary example of a speech which entirely misses the main point to be explained than the speech, able and conciliatory as it was, of my hon. and learned Friend.
      Let me point out a significant thing. A week ago there was not a man in this House who did not understand from the Attorney-General that the withdrawal of this prosecution was as deliberate and as fully considered as its institution. As far as the public Press knew, the prosecution
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      was not withdrawn until, I think, the 13th August. It turns out to-day that, instead of that being true, the Attorney-General, after two interviews with the Prime Minister and his political colleagues, was in a position to give the tip to two or three Members sitting behind him that it would be all right, that there would be no reason to raise any question on the Adjournment, and that the whole of that, though known to the Members of the Cabinet, was kept concealed from the House of Commons until to-day. What is the good, in circumstances of that sort, of the Prime Minister saying, as he took the trouble to say again today, that this was merely the Attorney-General's matter? This is not the Attorney-General's matter. It is a matter in which it is essential in the interests of public justice that an inquiry should be made to ascertain to what extent political Ministers interfered, and unless that is done the conduct of Ministers themselves has brought the administration of the law into suspicion and contempt. It is not enough for the Attorney-General to lay his hand on his heart and tell us that we now know all about it. I have known the Attorney-General so long and have had so much to do with him that I should be the very last man to east injurious aspersions. I believe it is his political colleagues who really ought to be brought to book. But it is not enough to say that as a matter of fact he can assure us that this was conducted on the most proper grounds. His colleagues for the best part of six weeks have left this country uncorrected and uninformed while great bodies of opinion have been developing which, on the material which was before them, could only draw the conclusion that these allegations were true. I have no desire to pronounce censure until I know all the facts, but it is no good telling me that the Attorney-General, by reading a number of statements which he has collected from a number of officials, has thereby fulfilled the same function as an impartial inquiry.
      The Attorney-General appears to be under the impression that really there is no more in this than criticism as to whether he was wise in initiating a prosecution, or whether he was at liberty to change his mind, or whether it was proper for him to allow his second thoughts to prevail. Let me assure him nothing of the sort is in my mind. I do

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      not myself think he came to a wise decision in the first instance. I am one of those who hold—and I think the House will know this is a fundamental Liberal conviction, and many other people hold it too—that to institute criminal prosecution in respect of statements, even very wild statements which have been made, whether in obscure newspapers or at street corners, is not, as a rule, a very wise use of Ministerial discretion. For my part I should be entirely against it except in the very last resort. But it is one thing to say "I will not institute another prosecution," and it is quite another thing to say, "Having instituted it, I will drop it without conditions." The Attorney-General observed that this obscure sheet was at the present moment selling like hot cakes outside the House of Commons. Whose fault is that? It is due to this fact, that whereas the precedent which the hon. and learned Gentleman quoted was a precedent in which, once the prosecution had been started, the Attorney-General of the day absolutely refused to withdraw unless he got from the accused a written solemn pledge that they would not repeat the offence, in the present case the Attorney-General has seen fit to stop these proceedings, although in the meantime another issue of the paper had appeared with an article equally inflammatory without making the slightest attempt to show that his action was one which was, at any rate, going to restrain future lawbreaking. If it is a different thing on the one hand to withdraw a prosecution in return for a signature of that sort and to withdraw it unconditionally, is it not a still more different thing to withdraw a prosecution after there has been outcry and protest from a section of the House of Commons? Ministers themselves, and no one else, are to blame, whatever be the true explanation of this, because the handling of the matter has left people all over the country gravely disturbed as to whether or not there has not here been a most improper attempt to influence the ordinary course of public justice.
      The Attorney-General has said something of the relations between himself and the Director of Public Prosecutions. Let me point this out. In England, unlike Scotland, only a. very small proportion of prosecutions are institutes by
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      the Director of Public Prosecutions at all. Nearly all prosecutions are what are called private prosecutions, instituted by municipalities, town clerks, railway companies, whoever it may be. There is a very limited class of case in which the Director of Public Prosecutions is concerned. Even there most of the cases he deals with are crimes against the person, like murder and manslaughter, or other serious offences against person or property, and the Attorney-General has no responsibility except in a technical sense because he is not as a matter of fact personally consulted. But when you come to a ease which raises a serious offence against the State—high treason, sedition, mutiny, corruption—then, and then only, the Director of Public Prosecutions goes to the Attorney-General, submits himself to his direction, examines the matter in every detail and from that time forward acts according to the Attorney-General's own instructions. I have never heard of a ease—and the Attorney-General with all his researches is quite unable to give one—in which an Attorney-General has once authorised a prosecution of that sort where the prosecution has been abandoned in circumstances such as tire admitted to have occurred here to-day.
      I think my hon. Friends above the Gangway are making the greatest mistake in the world if they think ordinary men and women do not care about this. A police magistrate is the decent man's friend. The ordinary citizen—a taxi driver—knows perfectly well that though he may get stern justice from a magistrate he will get justice. He knows that if he drinks he will be fined. He knows that if he is careless and hits someone in the street he may possibly go to prison. But he also knows that if a rich man tries to bilk him the magistrate is not going to let the rich man off by any representation which may be made secretly, and for that very reason—I do not think some hon. Members seem to know it—the law will not allow a private prosecutor who has once instituted proceedings for an indictable offence to withdraw such a prosecution, but would insist that the papers must go to the Public Prosecutor in order to see that there has been no underhand dealing, no secret compromise, no blackmail and no threat. The law allows the Attorney-General and the

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      Director of Public Prosecutions, as It ought to do, free choice and judgment to do as they think fit, but it does so upon the plain basis that there shall not be interviews between the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General asking "What is the meaning of this?" or directions telephoned to the Director of Public Prosecutions—"I want to see him in the Prime Minister's Room," a view expressed by the Prime Minister to the Attorney-General which he did not feel able to tell the House when he was asked this afternoon, and a report on all these matters to a Cabinet or a conference of Ministers, although a week ago there was not a soul except the people sitting on that bench who knew that the Members of the Cabinet had ever had anything to do with it. I repudiate altogether the suggestion that this matter is to be disposed of by highly technical arguments between Attorney-Generals and ex-Attorney-Generals. There is not a lawyer in the House, there is not an honest man in the country—[Laughter]—I know some people think lawyers are merely word twisters; is that what you think of your Attorney-General? I think better of him, and I am not prepared to see a professional man, who is obviously endeavouring to take a burden which ought to be borne by his colleagues upon himself, simply thrown to the censure of the House without an investigation. There is no one, lawyer or layman, who would not rejoice from the bottom of his heart if, as the result of an investigation, it could indeed be shown that no such improper political influence or pressure was used. But to pretend that the present situation is one which does not call for inquiry is to say something which no one who looks at the facts impartially could affirm for a minute.
      May I say one word as to an inquiry. I heard an hon. Member above the Gangway speak of the inquiry suggested as though it was an unfair one. I did not intend it so. The Prime Minister, I understand, yesterday said that such an inquiry by Members of the House of Commons would be biassed from the start. I do not think he pays a great compliment to his colleagues, but I am the less concerned about it because he went on to say something which no doubt he will develop in his speech. He said he knew for
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      a fact that the report of censure had already been drawn up. Let me say one thing about the character of the inquiry. The only thing I am concerned with is this. The inquiry that the House of Commons ought to insist upon is an inquiry which is public, an inquiry that is prompt, an inquiry that will assemble the documents and the facts and an inquiry that will then be able to present those facts for the House of Commons to consider. I do not in the least care how such a tribunal is composed. I do not make the slightest attempt to put the Government at a disadvantage or in a minority, but I know this, that if, indeed, the proposal for a fair and impartial inquiry in some form or other is resisted by this Government, then it is not because this is an issue which is adequate for a General Election, but it is because the Government, if they were to resist such an inquiry, would be in the position of the man who is asked to produce a document from his desk but prefers to burn down his house rather than produce it. Whether it is a man or a Government that does that, it is equally obvious in either case that they have something to hide.
      The PRIME MINISTER: I have no objection at all to the course of the Debate so far. The right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) opened his speech quite fairly, asking for information about the legal procedure. My hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, in that extraordinary clear speech of his, made it perfectly plain to everybody who listened to him that whether there had been mistakes or not in what had been done, nobody could accuse him of being influenced improperly. When I was questioned earlier in the afternoon, I quite properly refused to be drawn into what really is imbedded in the middle of this Debate. I am sorry that the right hon. and learned Member who has just sat down seemed to have had his mind preoccupied by other thoughts so that he did not hear what I said in reply to my right hon. Friend opposite, that when the Debate took place I proposed to make a statement. It was not exactly characterised by that honest rectitude to which the right hon. and learned Member referred on various occasions during his speech, when he said that I withheld information from the House and that I

      629
      was not able to tell the House. I am able to tell the House and, as I said earlier on, I propose to do so.
      The case has been twofold. It has been a case against my hon. and learned Friend, the Attorney-General, and it has been a case against the Government. The case against the Government has been an allegation of this kind, that we are less concerned with legal rectitudes than our predecessors. It is not true. No hon. Member of this House can read the records of political prosecutions—I mean prosecutions such as this—without seeing that in every case the Law Officers reported their intentions to the Executive for the advice of the Executive, or approached the Executive for guidance of some kind or other. Moreover, it is on record that the opinions of the Law Officers have been influenced to the extent of being altered and being reversed by the advice given to them by the Executive. Is that improper? I am not a lawyer, but in my view there is nothing else that is possible. Surely every prosecution, especially of a political character, is undertaken in the interests of the State. It is not merely a question of a formal breach of a Statute or the provisions of a Statute; not at all. That is the foundation; that is the origin. Surely, every Law Officer who is undertaking a prosecution in the interests of the State must possess himself not only of guidance on technical law but must possess himself of guidance on this question, whether if a prosecution is instituted the effect of the prosecution will be harmful or beneficial to the State in whose interests it has been undertaken.
      Therefore, so far as that is concerned I have no feeling of sin, no feeling of iniquity in saying that the Executive was interested in this prosecution. There are two improper ways for an Executive to give advice. I am talking as a layman and not as an expert lawyer. There are two ways in which I consider it very improper for the Executive to give advice to the Law Officers. The first is on personal grounds. That has been alleged against me. I hope that has been settled. Does any right hon. Gentleman who sits below the Gangway on this side of the House tell me that when these paragraphs were appearing in the newspapers it was my duty to write to the Press and say that the statements were untrue? I shall
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      never do it. It is not my job. It is not my concern. It is not my interest. Then there is another illegitimate kind of advice, the advice given in the interest of party. That is an allegation made against us now, I understand. It is not an allegation, though it is one of those twining, twisting, sinuous things, and supported by not a particle of evidence. There was not a shadow of justification shown even for that brilliant discovery of the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon)—which was regarded by him as such a precious revelation that he had to write it and read it—as to the relation of dates in connection with this prosecution and the Soviet Treaty negotiations.
      As far as I am concerned with the allegation against me, on those three days, the 5th, the 6th and the 7th, I was concerned with something very different. I hardly knew what was going on in regard to the Treaty. The House will remember that when I came here to speak about the Treaty I had to inform it that I had had to adjourn a Conference in my room for such time as I came to speak in the House, and then I went back to resume the business. The London Conference was then proceeding. That is neither here nor there. I will give the House this categorical assurance, if it wants it; if it really was in the least impressed by that pretty little, old-maidish discovery; if anybody is in the least impressed, if anybody has got the least cloud of suspicion cast upon his mind by the proximity of those dates, I tell the House this, that all that happened in connection with the Communist prosecution had just as much to do with the decision on the Soviet Treaty as the man in the moon. They were never brought into contact; they were never considered in relation one to the other.
      7.0 P.M.
      What is the position? His Majesty's Government are determined that, so far as they can help it, the propaganda of Communism is to have no chance in this country. We are not Communists. We are opposed to Communism. I am perfectly certain that if that Resolution which was carried by such an overwhelming majority in I he Labour Party Conference yesterday had been moved in a Tory organisation, the majority against the admission of the Communists could

      631
      not have been very much greater. There was one thing that concerned me when I saw about this prosecution in the papers, and that was not what my hon. Friends behind me might say, or what hon. Members in front of me might say—I have disagreed with them before, and I shall disagree with them again—that is no concern of mine, and if the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley imagines that when there is any revolt in the party I bend and bow and twist about in order to accommodate myself to the new situation, he is profoundly mistaken. The one thing that I was interested in was this. When I saw that this prosecution had been undertaken, I felt, and I feel now, that it gave such an extraordinary gratuitous advertisement to Communism that the thing, although in itself it was a breach of the law, undoubtedly—and there I take my stand alongside the right hon. Gentleman who laid down a sound principle—nevertheless, it was one of those breaches of the law which must be considered in the effect of the prosecution, and from that point of view I felt that the prosecution was a mistake—not because of hon. Members' questions, because as every hon. Member knows perfectly well when they are handling practically those big problems of social policy you have to handle them with common sense and with a judgment of an all-round character, including consequences as well as breaches and faults. That is one reason why I was interested in the prosecution. What happened at that conversation which followed immediately? The right hon. Gentleman, having listened very carefully to the documents read and the statements made, was still kind enough to insinuate in a statement that at the time that the learned Attorney came to see me in my room—the first time, the earlier afternoon interval—he had not made up his mind then. [An HON. MEMBER: "When was that?"] See his statement which appears in the OFFICTAL REPORT to-morrow morning.
      Mr. PRINGLE: When was the earlier afternoon conference?
      The PRIME MINISTER: What I am going to read was a. statement read by my hon. and learned Friend written by the
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      Assistant Public Prosecutor giving chat happened at that interview. It is not the first time. This is not a case of something withheld because it could not be disclosed. This is something which was read by my hon. and learned Friend. This is what Sir Guy Stephenson said. The Attorney-General said this at this earlier interview that he—
      Sir LESLIE SCOTT: Can we have the time of that interview.
      The PRIME MINISTER: The point I am interested in is this. The right hon. Gentleman insinuated that whether it was 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock, or 5 o'clock—[An HON. MEMBER: "When was it?"] The House has been informed by my hon. and learned Friend that it was at 5 o'clock. It does not matter whether it was 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock, or 5 o'clock. The right hon. Gentleman insinuated that when it did take place it was because I said something which changed the mind of the hon. and learned Gentleman. Very well, there is the statement of Sir Guy Stephenson read by my hon. and learned Friend earlier in the day.
      Sir J. SIMON: May I make it quite plain what I want to know. It is this. Had the Prime Minister taken any part at all in asking that the Director of Public Prosecutions, or his deputy should come to his room, and had he said he was to come to his room? How did it come about on this very important occasion that the Prime Minister should be seeing them, unless he had been speaking to the Attorney-General?
      The PRIME MINISTER: I am coming to that. I am not going to allow the right hon. Gentleman to evade the point. I want to finish this point first and show exactly what the state of the Attorney-General's mind was when he saw me first of all. The Attorney-General said that he had come to the conclusion that the prosecution ought to be withdrawn, and that he would consider the question whether he himself should appear at Bow Street, and so on.
      Mr. PRINGLE: Had you not seen the Attorney-General?
      The PRIME MINISTER: Certainly not. All those small points are raised as though we were trying to conceal something. We are doing nothing of the kind. The Attorney-General by then had seen

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      the Assistant Public Prosecutor. He had gone through the papers and had come to his conclusions. I had been busy all the morning and the afternoon up till then. I wanted to find out what this prosecution had taken place over. I did not know. I say to this House, in the face of this House, that it was my right to know, I wanted to know. I asked that the papers might be sent to me so that I might know precisely how the prosecution had arisen, what it was about and everything else that was germane, so that 1 might exactly understand it. That is why the Attorney-General, with the Assistant Public Prosecutor, came to my room. He wanted to see me, I wanted to see him, and when he came to my room I was out on some business. Then I returned, and the story to that point has been told by my hon. and learned Friend. Then, later on in the day, we had a consultation. Here I find myself in very grave difficulties, and right hon. Gentlemen will understand those difficulties. It is a perfectly well-known rule that Cabinet business must not be referred to and must not be revealed without His Majesty's consent. Even then it is not always advisable that it should be. But with that difficulty in my mind I can say this: we had a meeting previously summoned with no idea of this prosecution in our mind: absolutely none. I have refreshed my memory. It is not on the agenda. It is not indicated in any way at all. The chief business, as was announced in the papers the next morning, was Ireland. My two right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Home Secretary had been over to Ireland. They had arrived that morning. I had spent some time with them that morning and we had talked matters over. The meeting of Ministers was held at 6 o'clock. We did our legitimate business and then we wanted to know about this prosecution.
      Mr. PRINGLE: You had been told.
      The PRIME MINISTER: Yes. We wanted to know about the prosecution, and what it was about. The Attorney-General was asked if he would come and tell us. Now I can go this far, although I am not sure I am doing a wise thing—but one's veracity is challenged and insinuations are made that in some way or another something terrible took place and that perhaps I brought pressure to
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      bear upon the Attorney-General to withdraw the prosecution. My view then, my view now, purely from the political point of view, was expressed, and is expressed, that when a prosecution is undertaken, however bad it might be, however undesirable it might be, it should not be withdrawn except on certain well defined conditions. The view that was expressed by me then was on those lines. But knowing that the responsibility rested with the Law Officers, after that expression of opinion there I left things, and from the 6th August from, say, 7 or 7.30 o'clock that night until—I cannot quite remember, either Saturday, when I was full of the London Conference agreement, or until Sunday morning, when I got up to Scotland; I cannot remember which day it was—but, at any rate, from the dispersal of that Cabinet meeting until I was either leaving London or had left London, I did not know in the least what had taken place with regard to this prosecution. That is our story. That is the story from the political side. If there have been mistakes, I do not know. Was I wrong in asking the Attorney-General, or was the Attorney-General wrong in getting me to have a talk with him about it? I do not think so. It certainly was never intended by me that it should be so. There are two things upon which the House will want an assurance, and I give them the assurance, that whatever opinions were expressed were expressed not by way of giving mandates or instructions; whatever opinions were expressed, did not originate on personal consideration and did not originate on party considerations. One thing I was interested in: one thing I am interested in now, is that such prosecutions as this ought not to give an advertisement to a party in this State, which I consider to be a most subversive party, which I consider to be a party that ought not to be countenanced even by advertisements such as we are giving them now. The one concern I had and I am sure the one concern my colleagues had was that, and that alone.
      I do not know what the House is going to do. Somewhere about the middle of January or the latter part of January I sat where my right hon. Friend the Member for Bewdley (Mr. Baldwin) sits, and

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      he stood where I stand. Since then my colleagues and myself have tried to do the work which we believed ought to be done. We are prepared to go on as best we can, but, if we are going on, the House must in all fairness to us give us a satisfactory measure of confidence. The Motion moved from the Front Bench opposite is, as I said yesterday, a perfectly straightforward Motion. It asks the House to declare that it has no confidence in us. Very well, if that is the mind of the House, let it say so. The Amendment is not of that character. I do not know if I am wrong, but I will talk quite plainly. I think that the Amendment is a very unfair Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I am going to use an adjective a little bit more rankling that that, because I feel it. I think that there is such a large amount of meanness about the Amendment, and I will explain why. Did it escape the very critical and penetrating observation of right hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway that the Committee which they were setting up was a Committee of seven against us and three for us?
      Mr. PRINGLE: You are the only honest people in the House!
      The PRIME MINISTER: I should like the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) to take counsel with his next neighbour. It is no reflection on the honesty of the House to say that, concerning a Select Committee appointed by party Whips, appointed under the proportional representation principle, from the parties the very night or day after a heated Debate, every member of which is going either to be for or against it, to be sent upstairs and told to give an impartial decision upon a matter which has been shown to be a mere partisan matter—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—not more eloquently than in the speech which has just preceded mine. Nobody objects to the right hon. Gentleman's speech. He spoke before my hon. and learned Friend had spoken, and his return to those small, pettifogging, points is absolute proof of the intention of those who have moved this Amendment. I am not alone in speaking in this way. Let me remind the House of what some of its most respected Members in recent years have said about Select Committees. The right hon. Mr. Chamberlain, in moving
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      that a Select Committee should be appointed to inquire into the administration of the British South Africa Company in 1896, used these words:
      "In the first place a Commission would have undoubtedly more of a judicial character. It would be more absolutely free from any political element than any Parliamentary Committee, and in this matter I think we shall all agree that would have been a very considerable advantage."
      That is all I say, and in those circumstances the words of the right hon. Gentleman are all the more important. He knew himself that whether it was a Committee or Commission he had a majority that was necessary to see that fair play was done. Now let us come a little nearer home. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), replying to the right hon. Gentleman who now sits on Ids left (Mr. Asquith), when the latter moved for the appointment of a Select Committee on 9th May, 1918, to inquire into the allegations made by Major-General Maurice, said this:
      "The demand put forward in the Motion which has been read by yon, Mr. Speaker, from the Chair is absolutely without precedent as far as I can see in the history of this House. Statements made by Ministers in this House have beer challenged times without number—I do not mean statements made by Members of the present Ministry, but by Members of all Ministries."
      Quite rightly—
      "My right hon. Friend's statements during this War have been challenged seriously once or twice. It is customary that the accuracy and correctness of statements made by Ministers are challenged sometimes by their political opponents, sometimes by important persons outside this House, but this is the first time as far as I can discover that it has ever been suggested—even in a period of peace when there is more time—that a Select Committee of the House of Commons should examine the question as to whether a Minister has made a correct statement or not in the course of a speech. … When we had to consider whether it should be Select Committee or a judicial tribunal we felt that a Committee of the House of Commons adapted undoubtedly for certain investigations was not the best tribunal for investigating facts when passions were aroused. It is no use saying that this is bringing a charge against the House of Commons. The House of Commons as a matter of fact came to that conclusion long ago on a question say like election petitions."
      Mr. PRINGLE: You voted for the Motion.
      HON. MEMBERS: So did you.
      The PRIME MINISTER: Then, he added:
      "My right hon. Friend Mr. Asquith came to that conclusion himself with regard to the Mesopotamia inquiry. It was suggested at the time and he deprecated it and gave his reasons. I think that he was right."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th May, 1918; cols. 2355 and 2358, Vol. 105.]
      So do I. Just one more quotation. The right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), speaking on the proposal for the appointment of a Select Committee with regard to General Maurice, said as follows:
      "But the clearer the case—and I am speaking upon the assumption that it is a clear case—that His Majesty's Ministers have for asserting and reasserting, establishing and proving to demonstration the accuracy of the statements which have been impugned the more cogent seems to me the argument that an inquiry should take place under conditions which no one can suspect of partiality or prejudice."
      That is quite right. Then there is the interruption to which I was coming.
      "Mr. BONAR LAW: A Select Committee!"
      And the tone and the meaning of the interjection are shown by the exclamation which appears in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The Report continues:
      "Mr. ASQUITH: Well, does the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggest that a Select Committee is not an unsuspect tribunal?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: I could not name a single Member of this House who is not either friendly or opposed to the Government, and who must therefore start with a certain amount of prejudice.''—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th May, 1918; col. 2354, Vol. 105.]
      It is very easy for the two other parties to go into the Lobby and force certain things upon us as a minority Government which I venture to say no Government, for the sole reason that the rights of Government ought to be kept in sacred custody by all Governments, could accept if it were able to reject. When the conduct of a Member of the Government is called in question, and the Government propose an inquiry, as has been done, good and well. But even then I think that a Select Committee is not the right court to send it to. It was my duty, when I sat on this side of the House below the Gangway, to look after a certain Select Committee, of which I was not a Member, which was working from day to day. But I put it straight and square to any hon.
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      Member who was on that Committee, if there be any here still, that he knows perfectly well that that Committee was run on purely party lines by the three sides. You cannot get away from it. I am referring to the Committee on the Marconi affair. Now there we are. We have told our story. We have claimed certain rights, the right for instance of the Executive to interest itself in political prosecutions. We have done our best. The one concern which we had was whether this prosecution advances the interest of the State or not. But even then we issued no instructions. The views expressed, the many views expressed, for the consideration of the officers with technical knowledge and with the responsibilities of office put the burden of a final decision upon them. As my right hon. Friend has reminded me, and as I have said already, before the consultations took place—they were not even consultations—before the conversations took place the decision had practically been come to and no change took place.
      If this House is going to censure us for that, it has got the power. Two and two are always more than two and one, and if when hon. Members are counted in the Lobby we get the combination which we are told we are going to have against us to-night, that is the end of it. I said on a former occasion that we should take advice from this House in the sense of rejection of the proposals which we made, provided that they were not regarded as essential, and provided that the rejection of our proposal or our defeat in the Lobby did not amount to a diminution of that sense of self-respect which every Government must have if it is justified in sitting for five minutes on the Treasury Bench. I repeat that now. If this House passes either the Resolution or the Amendment now, we go. It is the end; it will be the end of what. hon. Members on all sides of the House will agree has been a high adventure—the end of a Government which, I think, has contributed much to the honour of the country, to our social stability, and which, when the country has an opportunity of passing a verdict upon it, will come again.
      Mr. ASQUITH: I do not rise for the purpose of entering into the merits of the controversy which has been carried on

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      during this Debate, nor shall I do more than drop a sympathetic and tributary tear on the funeral oration which the Prime Minister has just pronounced. These obsequial tributes are generally reserved, if not until the corpse has been interred, at any rate until the doctor has pronounced that life is extinct. I confess that it was to me, a man of rather keen susceptibilities, and myself somewhat advanced in life, a melancholy thing to hear the right hon. Gentleman anticipate so comfortably his own early, indeed almost immediate, decease. But I should not have risen, certainly not at this stage, if it were not for two or three observations which the Prime Minister made towards the close of his speech in regard to the Amendment. He used some very derogatory epithets about the Amendment. I must say that his language inside the House, though not all that I desire, is mildness and gentleness itself compared with that which he allows himself to indulge in on the public platform. I read his speech yesterday. I aways admire and try to profit by an example, though sometimes by way of caution. I refer to the right hon. Gentleman's rhetoric in the congenial surroundings of a meeting of the Independent Labour party, or the Labour party, where there seems to have been a musical competition as to which of two more or less revolutionary anthems should take the place of the National Anthem. I observe that there was greater freedom, at any rate, a warmer temperature in the atmosphere in which he found himself yesterday. He spoke then of the Amendment as "crooked"—it is only "mean" to-day—and, I believe, "ungentlemanly." Yes, the phrase was "taint of ungentlemanliness."
      Why? Why this sacrosanct super-sensitiveness? It is the convenient invention of the Labour Government. I have never known any other set of public men who were equally thin-skinned. What is the matter with the Amendment? Surely it is strictly in accordance with precedent? The Prime Minister quoted the late Mr. Joseph Chamberlain, one of the highest authorities. I presume the quotation was from the Debate on the Motion to appoint a Select Committee on the Jameson Raid.
      The PRIME MINISTER: The administration of the British South Africa Company.
      Mr. ASQUITH: I remember; I was in the House of Commons at the time. He expressed a preference in regard to that particular inquiry for another tribunal of investigation. But a Select Committee was appointed to inquire into the whole of the proceedings in connection with the Jameson Raid and the alleged complicity of the Colonial Office, Mr. Rhodes, and even Mr. Chamberlain himself. Nobody then whimpered about torture chambers, it was an ordinary part of our Parliamentary procedure. Some years later, when I was myself head of the Government, we had an inquiry, a very famous inquiry in its day, known as the Marconi Committee. Some of my colleagues were charged with very grave offences, for men in their position—offences which, if they had in fact been commixed, would have left a stain upon their public and personal honour. The Government of the day consented to the appointment of a Committee which, among other things, was commissioned to investigate these charges. It was a Select Committee of the House of Commons. It was appointed in the ordinary way. It sat for weeks and months, and my right hon. Friends and colleagues who were the object of those charges, what did they do? They did not make funeral orations; they did not threaten a Ministerial crisis; they did not propose to go to the country. They went upstairs into the torture chamber, very brave men no doubt, but not braver than the average Member of Parliament. With unblinking eyes and unshaken nerves they faced the boot, the thumb-screw and the rack, and all the rest of the apparatus of mediæval cruelty.
      The right hon. Gentleman said the other day that the appointment of this Select Committee would lead to the production of Minutes—or might—and leters and documents and all sorts of things. So did the Marconi Committee. I myself, though I was not personally supposed to be incriminated in these charges, found my own private correspondence laid before the notice of this Committee, confidential communications to colleagues, if I remember aright, containing some uncomplimentary references to the weather. That

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      is something from which Ministers shrink in these days. We are approaching, in some respects, a slightly degenerate and decadent race. The result was that this Marconi Committee, constituted in the ordinary way, reported and unanimously acquitted my colleagues of the grave charges made against them. I have always thought, and I think still, that when it is a question of that kind—a question of fact, a question affecting personal conduct—a Committee of the House of Commons, however appointed and constituted, is one of the fairest tribunals in the world.
      The Prime Minister has quoted sonic remarks that were made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) on another famous occasion, when I moved for a Select Committee to inquire into certain allegations made by General Maurice in the course of the War. One of the happy features of political comradeship is that you need not always be of entirely the same mind—at any rate on questions of procedure. I do not speak of matters of principle. My right hon. Friend was then Prime Minister and he took exception to that particular instrument of inquiry at that time and for that purpose. I still think that I was right in my conclusions, and, if my right hon. Friend will allow me to say so without any embitterment of personal relations, I think I was also right in the reasons which I gave for them.
      I see no reason whatsoever why what seems to me to emerge plainly from the course of this Debate, the investigation of the serious matters that have been raised on the Floor of the House to-day, without prejudging in any way the ultimate issue, should not be referred to a similar tribunal. The talk about packed juries and so on is almost an insult to the common sense as well as to the common feeling of justice of the House of Commons. I want to make perfectly plain, speaking for myself and my friends, what our position in this matter is. I am not wedded to any particular form or any particular instrument. I think a Select Committee would be a very good one, and I would be perfectly prepared to make this offer. If a Select Committee be appointed, as far as I and my friends are concerned, we will not ask for places upon it. As far
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      as we are concerned, there shall be no suggestion of a packed jury. It has these advantages. It can set to work at once; it has all the necessary powers to take evidence upon oath, to require the productions of documents, and so forth, and it will not occupy a long time—I imagine it will be a very short time, perhaps a day or a couple of days—in arriving at a conclusion.
      What is the alternative? There is only one which I have seen suggested. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister has not helped us there; he has shut the door, in his speech just now, to any form of inquiry, and I am very sorry he has done so. Take the alternative of a judicial commission for instance. To adopt that you must have an Act of Parliament. Such a body would have no power except by Statute to take evidence upon oath or for the production of documents or even the summoning of witnesses. It would mean endless delay and would be very unsatisfactory from that point of view. I may say I have had an experience, which I do not think anybody else in the House has had, of the working of such a Commission. It was my fate to sit daily for the best part of nine months before the Parnell Commission which was set up, in preference to a Select Committee of this House, to investigate the charges against Mr. Parnell and his colleagues. Looking back on that experience, now nearly 40 years ago, I say that in my opinion it was a very unsatisfactory tribunal. As I say, if any practical alternative is offered to the Select Committee suggested in this Amendment I will not, nor so far as I know will any of my friends, offer any objection to it. I have listened to this Debate as far as I could with an impartial mind. I express no opinion one way or the other on the merits of the case, but in the interests of the Government, in the interests of the House of Commons and in the interests of our public life, such an investigation before such a tribunal should take place at once and there should be a report to the House of Commons for its information.
      Mr. BANKS: In speaking upon the Motion for a Vote of Censure upon His Majesty's Government, I had some observations to make upon the absolute necessity of preserving in the mind of the ordinary man his confidence in the

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      absolute impartiality of our administration of justice and some observations upon the necessity in these days of taking all steps to prevent that permeation of the Army by Communist influences which Communists themselves announce is going on and which I, for one, believe to exist in fact. Having listened with the very greatest attention to all the speeches made in the course of this Debate, I have come to the conclusion that the speech I intended to make, however it might have entertained or however it might have bored the House of Commons, must be relegated to the waste paper basket. It seems to me that all parties in this House should carefully reconsider their position after the discussion to which we have listened. It is absolutely necessary that officers of the law, whether Judges or Attorney-Generals, should perform their functions without the slightest regard to any considerations, financial, social or political. It is surely equally important that this House, which is also the High Court of Parliament, in some sense., should show equal impartiality and equal freedom from party bias.
      A Vote of Censure, it seems to me, is not merited by any mistake which a law officer of the Crown may make. It is not merited by the fact-that his judgment has been rushed or wrong so long as his judgment was arrived at upon the information at his disposal and so long as he gave to His Majesty's Ministers the advice which he sincerely considered to be the best. Nor do I think a Vote of Censure is merited by any action upon the part of His Majesty's Ministers, however ill-advised such action may have been, in relation to disclosures made to this House or kept back from the House, unless that conduct has been in some sense a departure from the high standard of public morals to which we are accustomed in this country, unless there has been some obliquity, some underhand intrigue, or some yielding to improper pressure. I ant bound to say that I came to the conclusion, as I listened to the speech of the learned Attorney-General, that he had made up his mind very rapidly and very rashly and that he had been too prone to listen to the statements of personal friends without subjecting them to corroboration and investigation in the fullest sense, and I think we shall all agree,
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      Whatever we may think about instituting proceedings of this kind, that once they have been instituted it is ill-advised to withdraw them without giving the reasons most fully on the Floor of the House of Commons.
      I think His Majesty's Ministers might have been franker with us at an earlier stage in these proceedings. Knowing how deeply concerned all Members of this House must be in this question—those of us who are engaged in the profession of the law are perhaps more nearly touched than others—they did just the sort of thing which is sometimes made an accusation against lawyers. They kept something up their sleeves. They had an explanation, but they were not prepared to offer it until forced to do so by the Motion for a Vote of Censure. It may be wise in the criminal or in any accused person to say to a Court, "I reserve my defence,' when he knows that whatever he has by way of evidence will be produced more effectively at the time of trial, but this House and the country would have appreciated a greater degree of candour in Ministers of the Crown which might very well have been offered to us on the occasion of the questions raised when the House first met after the Recess.
      Nevertheless I have listened to the Prime Minister and to the Attorney-General standing opposite there on the Floor of this House and making certain carefully weighed statements upon their word of honour. They have denied most emphatically, and produced evidence to support their statements, that any improper bargaining went on at all. They have denied that the Attorney-General's judgment was influenced in any way by political pressure. He says it was not. He says he went to see the Prime Minister with his mind made up—made up as I think too rapidly and wrongly. His excuse for that is that he had not much time and had to be prepared with a decision when the House assembled in the evening because the question was to be raised on the Adjournment. That is his statement, but he says he was completely uninfluenced in his judgment and formed his judgment on the information set at his disposal by the Public Prosecutor. The Prime Minister corroborates, again upon his word of honour, speaking to this House and to the nation at large, and says

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      neither at the first interview with the Attorney-General nor at the conference of Cabinet Ministers afterwards, did they do anything but hear from the Attorney-General what his decision was and accept that decision, no doubt with approbation.
      The real suspicion in all our minds, due in large degree to the ill-advised reticence of Ministers themselves, was that in some way or another certain Members of this House and certain people outside had influenced the minds of His Majesty's Ministers and that they in turn had brought pressure to bear upon the Law Officers of the Crown. You may have any amount of Committees and any degree of investigation, but can you get anything more satisfactory by those means than the evidence upon the word of honour of His Majesty's Prime Minister and His Majesty's Attorney-General made to this House in full Parliament assembled? It seems to me to support the Vote of Censure would be tantamount to saying that we cannot accept such solemn statements so solemnly made and that we prefer to accept as against them such evidence as appears in the Press or such statements as have been made by a person who certainly on his own confession has broken the law.
      8.0 P.M.
      In these circumstances, I cannot think that it would he wise to support the Vote of Censure upon His Majesty's Government. Had there been those elements, those sinister elements which, as I have said, caused us such great suspicion, I cannot think of any case which could have been selected either by my friends or my opponents that I would more gladly have supported if fought before my constituents. Had we been able to bring home the charge that undue influences were exercised, and that the administration of justice was deflected for political considerations, it certainly would not have been, as one right hon. Gentleman called it, a "tin-pot prosecution." It would have been a prosecution involving matters of principle as grave as those that were involved in the case of John Hampden and in the case of the Seven Bishops. Had there been no answer, or a hesitating answer, or an unsatisfactory answer, from the Prime Minister or the Attorney-General to the case, I think very properly and gravely opened by my right bon, Friend the
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      Member for Hillhead (Sir B. Horne), then I should gladly have joined issue on this subject, thinking that no better case had ever been committed to my hand.
      I for one think honestly that it is the duty of a lawyer—not in this case as distinguished either from a sane man, as the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) put it the other day, or from an honest man, as the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) put it this afternoon, but I do think it is the duty of a lawyer whether he be honest or otherwise—in the course of his profession to listen to the evidence, to weigh the evidence properly, and not, after he has heard the evidence, to say: "Well I do not care about that, I shall act from my own prejudices." I feel very greatly distressed that I should have to dissociate myself from the Motion which my right hon. Friend has proposed. I had ventured to put my name down, or to get my name suggested, to take part in this Debate with the intention of supporting that Motion, and I am aware of the very great responsibility that a humble back bencher assumes when he rises afterwards to take another course, but I do feel that. I could not take this course unless I offered a word of explanation, making it clear to the House that I am bound to consider that the words of the First Minister of the Crown given under such circumstances as these, and that the word of the head of the English Bar again given under such circumstances, is one that I must accept as an explanation.
      Mr. T. JOHNSTON: I rise, not as a lawyer, to offer a few observations upon this case that is before the House of Commons to-day. We have heard from very eminent barristers an admission that what they had been saying in the country was more or less of a mare's nest, and the last hon. Member who addressed the House has been frank enough to say, after the explanation that has been given this afternoon, that he does not propose to vote for the Vote of Censure against the Government. But there are phases of this question that have not been discussed at all to-day. We have the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), for example, declaring and repeatedly declaring his antagonism to all political interference with the judicial officers of the Crown in the exercise of their duty. No one, I suppose, in this House would disagree with that sentiment. When I

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      heard the right hon. Gentleman say that he was against this prosecution from the beginning, and heard him make reference to the obscure sheet which has been dragged out into prominence as a result of this prosecution, and when I heard him declare that once a prosecution was started it was the duty of the Law Officers of the Crown to proceed with that prosecution without any interference whatever from politicians or members of the Government, my mind went back to an occasion in March, 1912, and I went to the Library and I turned up the files of the London "Times" to a case almost on all fours with this. It was the case of a prosecution for incitement to mutiny in the Army of a man called Guy Bowman for the publication of an article inciting soldiers of the British Army not to use their weapons against, as I think it was put, their unarmed fellow-countrymen, in the face of a great railway strike which was then breaking out.
      This article appeared in a paper called the "Syndicalist" and the printers were two brothers called Buck. The Law Officers at that time were Sir Rufus Isaacs, now Lord Reading, who was Attorney-General, and the Solicitor-General, the present distinguished Member for Spen Valley. That was in March, 1912. They authorised a prosecution under the Incitement to Mutiny Act, 1797. The prosecution took place. The writer of the article who was discovered—it was proved that this man had written the article—got nine months' hard labour by Mr. Justice Horridge at the Old Bailey, while the two printers, quite innocent politically of sympathy with the article in question, got six months' hard labour for printing the article. Immediately this took place and this decision was given in the Old Bailey a Free Speech Defence Committee was formed in the City of London. That committee was officered by distinguished members of the party to which the present Member for Spen Valley belongs, back benchers of his own. Sir Henry Dalziel, now Lord Dalziel, was chairman at a great protest meeting of the committee. Mr. MacCallum Scott, the present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Colonel Wedgwood), who was then a member of the Liberal party, and others, including
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      the present Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), were members of this Free Speech Defence Committee. Now observe what happened; observe the political interference by back benchers with the normal course of what was called justice. I am not discussing for a moment whether the prosecution was right or wrong, or whether the sentence was hard or otherwise. I will consider the facts. In East Walthamstow, which was then the constituency represented by the present Member for Spen Valley, the three men who were prosecuted resided, namely, the brothers Buck and Bowman. Great meetings of protest were held in East Walthamstow, mass meetings of railway men. This Free Speech Defence Committee got busy and all three men were released before even the period of the notice of appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal had elapsed, and while the case was still sub Judice.
      The Law Officers of the Crown, the then Attorney-General and the then Solicitor-General, the Member for East Waltham-stow, were subject to back bench influence from their own party, and these three men were released. I could tell you how long they were in. But it does not matter. Three weeks, I think. Other men at the same time were released: Tom Mann, stated by the London "Times" to have been "unexpectedly released," also for an incitement to sedition, and for a charge under the same Act. But I cannot read in the London "Times" the slightest reference to any action taken by the then Member for East Walthamstow to demand a Select Committee of the House of Commons to inquire into political influence being brought to bear upon the Law Officers of the Crown. The Member for Bow and Bromley was present at the meeting with the Law Officers of the Crown at which political pressure was brought to bear upon these Law Officers to induce them to release these men. I submit that if it was good that Law Officers of the Crown in 1912 should interfere politically, perhaps in the public interest, but politically, then it takes a considerable amount of hardihood for one of those two Law Officers to get up to-day and point a finger of scorn and demand a special Committee of Inquiry into the activities and the procedure which the present Attorney-General has justified this afternoon.

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      There are other cases which could be cited of a similar nature from the other side of the House. I do not say that they are wrong. I say that there are occasions when it would be the duty of any politician to attempt to protect the good name of the Government and of the law from undertaking a very foolish prosecution. I have an occasion in my own experience. There was an advertisement once appeared in a paper which I was editing. I did not see the advertisement; it was handed in in the normal course of business. But it was undoubtedly seditious. A prosecution was inaugurated. I was technically liable, but it was stopped by a Conservative Attorney-General when he knew the facts. I submit anyone who cared to go back to the files of these cases, these charges of sedition and so on, for the past 50 or 100 years would find innumerable cases and ample justification for interfering with prosecutions such as I believe this one to have been.
      I agree with the previous speaker, who said that this prosecution ought not to have been undertaken at all. I think the widest possible latitude should be given for free speech. If a man indulges in sentiments which are foolish and which are disbelieved in by the vast majority of his fellow countrymen, then no harm is clone, but if the Government start prosecuting opinions, there is no saying where these prosecutions will end. The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) once, to his credit, interfered in this House in what was at the time a very popular attack by the Government upon the right of free speech and free printing. He attacked his own leader for it—it affected me—and I submit that it is the business of hon. Members on all sides of this House. Conservative, Liberal, and Labour, or Socialist, to take the utmost precautions that the minimum amount of interference by the judicial machine of this country shall take place with the right of free speech and opinion. I am very grateful indeed to the Attorney-General for having had the courage, when he knew the facts, to stop this very foolish prosecution, and I hope that so long as the Labour Government stays in this House it will never attempt to undertake another prosecution on the same lines.
      Mr. J. J. O'NEILL: I am intervening very reluctantly in this Debate, because
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      I shall be in the unfortunate position of having to vote against my own parry. I am one of those who believe that newspapers ought to be allowed to print anything they care to print, and that the readers who take up the newspapers—because we have an intelligent public nowadays—can be trusted to agree with exactly what they think is wise. I am going to vote against my own party, because I believe this whole Debate is a trumpery affair, and because I do not believe there is any genuine desire at all, on the part of either of the parties opposing the Government on this issue, to arrive at any further conclusion than the one they already know must be arrived at if a Select Committee is set up. How much further can a Select Committee carry the matter? It can only do one thing, as far as I can see. It can make the Prime Minister of this mighty Empire of ours repeat on oath what he has already repeated on his honour in this House, and I think it is a frightful humiliation to make the Prime Minister of this country repeat on oath what most of us know he has said truly in this House to-night.
      The wisest thing the Government has done has been to withdraw this prosecution. To my knowledge, nobody in this House, or very few, ever saw the "Workers' Weekly," or ever heard of it until it was mentioned in the ordinary popular Press, and I do not believe a single newspaper in this country will support an attack upon the Government upon this issue. The previous speaker, who is a journalist, as I am, will, I am sure, agree with me, that if you search the files of any of the great newspapers of this country, you will find there things which border just as much on sedition as did the article in the "Workers' Weekly." I assure this House, and I particularly assure my own party, that there is a very grave suspicion—and I frankly think there are grounds for the suspicion—that all is not fair in this discussion. We gave General Gough, after the Curragh affair, a K.C.B. and not a trial, as he ought to have had, for sedition. I cannot imagine anybody quoting Lord Birkenhead as an authority upon sedition, although perhaps he is an authority upon sedition, for Lord Birkenhead himself was guilty of a grave breach of faith against the Government of this country at a time when this country had its back to the wall during

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      the War. Lord Birkenhead was responsible for the running of arms into Ireland and for the suggestion that the Army should revolt in certain circumstances, and no kind of prosecution was instituted against him.
      I ask my party leaders gravely to consider, before they force this to an issue, that it is not fair of us Liberals, who certainly are not by tradition or instinct sedition hunters, to put the Prime Minister on trial before any Select Committee or any judicial committee. I take it that we on these benches will vote directly against the Motion from the other side, and I take it that there is no question but that that Motion will be defeated, and I appeal to my own party not to press the Prime Minister, because I think the Attorney-General has given a perfect answer to-night to every charge made against him. I appeal to my own party not to press to a vote or to an issue this question of the appointment of a Select Committee. I was very glad, though rather amazed, to see the point of view taken on the opposite Bench, and it is a grave thing for an ordinary back bencher to vote against his party. After the speeches to which I have listened this afternoon, it is a very grave thing for me to vote against my party, and I am only intervening to make it perfectly clear, first of all, and obviously, that I have no sympathy whatever with these Communistic articles or statements, and, as far as I can make out, not one word of sympathy has come from any of the benches in this House with the article which has appeared in this newspaper, though I may say, in parenthesis, that I think our soldiers and sailors have sufficient horse sense and common sense to be allowed to read these articles and make up their minds themselves as to the wisdom or unwisdom of such articles.
      I suggest that it is unfair, un-English and certainly illiberal to prosecute an obscure paper like the "Workers' Weekly" when, in years gone by, great daily newspapers have perpetrated very nearly, if not exactly in the same direction, as gravely seditious articles as that published by the "Workers' Weekly." I am not concerned about Mr. Ross Campbell's standing in the Communist party, and I think the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) was altogether out of order when he compared the signa-
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      ture of the Russian Treaty with this prosecution against Mr. Campbell. I cannot imagine that there was the slightest connection between the two things. To me, it seems rather an absurd argument to advance that for a reason, for I am not certain that I shall be alone, either on these benches or across the way, in my action. I shall emphatically and directly vote in favour of the Government, not because I care for Communism or for the views ordinarily expressed by Labour Members, but because I believe this prosecution is unfair and that the attack on the Government is unfair, and I do not believe a Select Committee will carry if one inch further than we have had it carried to-night. For these reasons, I shall vote for the Government and against my own party.
      Sir F. HALL: I have listened very carefully to all the speeches that have been made on this matter, and I came down quite prepared to hear a different statement from the one I heard this afternoon, but I would say this at once, that I consider the Government took the wrong step in withdrawing the prosecution. I am very glad to see the Secretary of State for War on the Treasury Bench, and I put it to him, what is going to be his position, and the position of the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force, if statements of a most seditious character are to be published and issued to the men in whom we have confidence, and in whom the people of this country have to place reliance, as has been done in the case of the "Workers' Weekly," and careful consideration is given by the Law Officers of the Crown, who, having weighed up the whole of these points, come to a decision that it is necessary that it a prosecution should take place, and then that decision is reversed? I was responsible for this matter being brought first of all before this House. If hon. Members refer to the OFFICIAL REPORT of the 29th July, they will find that I asked the Home Secretary a question on this subject.
      Mr. WALLHEAD: Do not brag about it.
      Sir F. HALL: I consider it the duty of every Member of the House of Commons to bring before the House statements that are likely to be dangerous to the country, and to the electors whom he is supposed to represent. The reply of

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      the Home Secretary to my question, as I expected, was to the effect that they were desirous of considering the matter before giving a reply. I asked the right hon. Gentleman whether, if I put the question down in a week's time, he would be able to give me a reply. My question was going down on the 7th August, and on the 6th an hon. Member put down a private notice question, and a reply was given to the effect that the prosecution was to take place. On the following day, in the ordinary course of events, my question having been given in, I asked the Attorney-General, and he referred me to the reply he had given the previous day, which was to the effect that the prosecution was to take place. It was not a reply given in a heated moment, but after careful consideration. As we have heard from the learned Attorney-General this afternoon, he went clearly into the whole of the facts before he gave that reply, and, having given that reply, I say here and now that the Government, having considered the facts, and being under the impression that it was necessary that the prosecution should take place, it was not for the Attorney-General or any member of the Government to be judge and jury in an important case like this. It was necessary that the prosecution should continue, and for the judge and jury to come to the decision.
      Are we to have a state of affairs in this House of Commons that some Minister—never mind how able he is—is to decide all these points, and to say, "In this case, although I ordered a prosecution, and although I gave it careful consideration before I came to that decision, nevertheless I am going to decide whether that man is innocent or whether he is guilty"? It has not been a case of deciding whether the man is innocent. It is all very well to say he was a subeditor. I am no lawyer, but I challenge the learned Attorney-General or any Member of His Majesty's Government to deny that if a sub-editor is responsible for the publication of any seditious statement such as the one we have under discussion, he is just as responsible as the editor himself if he is left in charge. That is what has taken place. What is going to be the criterion set up now as to whether a man is guilty or whether he is innocent? If we hear his forebears have not borne the best
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      of characters, and if it is the case that he is not as old, or perhaps has not developed the wisdom of the learned Attorney-General, are they to be the fundamental principles on which you are to say that the man is not guilty, that he was not responsible for his actions, and although you have considered the case very carefully and ordered the prosecution, yet somebody has brought to your notice that he did good service during the War—and I respect him for it. Unfortunately, we have had to see a large number of cases of those who carried out their duties in the War in a perfectly satisfactory, aye, in a brave manner, come under the law, and have to bear the consequences of their wrongdoing. It seems to me a new course of events, a new era altogether, when members and supporters of a specific Government can approach the members of that Government and ask clemency to be extended. I am not going to say that people, perhaps, may have an idea of malpractices. I am not going to suggest it.
      Mr. MAXTON: You had better not do that.
      Sir F. HALL: I am perfectly at liberty, until I am called to order by Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to state my opinion in the House of Commons without fear and without favour, and I intend to do it. The Prime Minister said there had been reflections cast upon his character, and upon the characters of some of the Members of his Government. I am not here to say they are right or wrong. What I say is that if reflections have taken place, surely the way to overcome the difficulty is to make use of the recognised practice that has obtained for generations in the House of Commons, and set up a Committee who may bring in a Report, in all probability that may be satisfactory to the Government.
      Mr. WALLHEAD: Are you for censure or Committee?
      Sir F. HALL: If the hon. Gentleman asks me whether I am in favour of a Vote of Censure, I say I am not in favour of a Vote of Censure. That is perfectly plain. What I am in favour of is this because I do not think, after the statement that has been made by the learned Attorney-General this afternoon, we ought to do other. It is a recognised custom in this

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      House, and I hope it will always he maintained, that after a Minister, it does not matter to what party he belongs—whether mine or the party to which I am opposed—has made a statement it is my duty to accept the statement that that right hon. Gentleman makes. I hope there is not in the House of Commons any suggestion that the statement made by a right hon. Gentleman opposite, whatever Government he may represent, will ever be doubted. But I say it is necessary after all that has appeared and the statements that have been made that in the interests of members of the Government, and of the great body of electors, that a tribunal such as the one suggested, a Select Committee of the House of Commons, which it is generally recognised is the best medium, should be set up. I agree. I say at once that if the right hon. Gentleman who has brought forward the Motion to that effect presses that Motion to a Division—I make myself perfectly plain on that—I shall certainly support him. It will be in the interests of justice and in order that the people of this country may know that the whole has been sifted, and evidence taken, for in the ordinary course of events, in my opinion, that is the better tribunal when any suggestion has been made against a responsible Minister.
      I have been long enough in the House to remember what transpired in 1912. It must not be taken that, because we are opposed politically to various Members, that our sympathies are not extended to them, perhaps quite as generously as those of their own supporters. But we should see a satisfactory conclusion whenever a question of this sort comes up. I repeat that if that is done, if such a Committee is set up, a report will be made. There will be no loss of time, and in a week's time or so we shall have the result of the findings of that Committee. What harm can be done? Is anyone afraid of the information that will come out? Is there any suggestion to that effect? Surely the matter cannot be regarded in that light. It is not forming a precedent. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) stated this afternoon that, so far as he was concerned, speaking on behalf of those whom he represented, he would be perfectly agreeable that no member of his party should sit on that
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      Committee. I think that is going a tremendously long way, because it is a thing I have never heard in this House of Commons before. Under these circumstances we must not overlook the fact that the Prime Minister would be able to nominate the Chairman of that Select Committee. I cannot possibly see what harm there can be accepting the suggestion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley.
      I am sorry it has been necessary to have a discussion of this character. I agree at once with the Prime Minister that in his opinion the prosecution, having been started, it should have been continued and carried to a conclusion. Unfortunately, that was not the course adopted. I am sorry it has been necessary to have a discussion, but having had these seditious statements published by this Communist paper, I hope it will have one effect. I do not think from any part of the House that that paper will receive any support. There has been nothing in any of the speeches made hacking up the suggestion that the soldiers, the sailors, or the airmen should not carry out the responsibilities for which they were engaged. There has been no suggestion that they should forswear the obligations in which they have entered. It would be a great pity—never mind how small the minority—for Members of the House of Commons to come down here and state that the serious obligation, which devolve upon those who take upon themselves the responsibility of protecting the people of this country should not be carried nut without fear or favour. I finish as I started, by saying that I sincerely hope that on reconsideration the Members of the Government will, in their own interests, agree to the Amendment that has been moved. I hone it will not be necessary to go to a Division. I hope on reconsideration the Prime Minister will come down and say that after the speeches which have been delivered and, if I may say so, after the olive branch which has been extended—[Laughter]—I say the olive branch which has been extended from various parts of the House—that the Prime Minister and Members of the Government will see their way to accept the Amendment.
      Mr. MAXTON: Did I understand the hon. and gallant Gentleman to say that

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      he brought seine political pressure to bear upon the Government to initiate this sort of thing?
      Sir F. HALL: I cannot understand the hon. Gentleman possibly understanding that. Did he understand the statement of the Prime Minister? I spoke perfectly plainly. If my hon. Friend had anything to do with approaching Members of the Government I know nothing about it. He may have done. But we have not been asked to explain that.
      Mr. MAXTON: I was referring to the hon. and gallant Gentleman's statement that he had asked a question of the Attorney-General.
      Sir F. HALL: Yes, it was on the 29th July.
      Mr. MAXTON: Then the hon. and gallant Gentleman did bring political pressure upon the Attorney-General to initiate this prosecution?
      Sir F. HALL: That has not been a custom recognised amongst the Members of the party with which I am associated.
      Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I do not know how far the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken speaks for the Opposition, but it was stated yesterday that there were indications that the Conservative party was going to run away from its own Motion. So far as the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Dulwich (Sir F. Hall) is concerned, it is clearly his intention to run away from the Motion put forward by his own party, and to form an alliance with hon. Members below the Gangway. The Parliamentary situation is such that one never knows what is going to happen until it happens, and we shall not know what is going to happen until eleven o clock to-night.
      The hon. and gallant Member for Dulwich did not expect the Attorney-General to make the speech he did make. None of us could observe the facial phenomena of hon. Members opposite towards the end of the Attorney-General's speech without realising that they had not heard the speech they expected and hoped for, and it is perfectly clear that the Conservative party is seriously disconcerted at the way the Debate has gone, and they all realise that the explanation given by the Attorney-General is full and complete, and really leaves nothing else to be said, unless it is assumed that the Attorney-General
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      has been consciously and deliberately misleading the House of Commons. It has been admitted that there is no foundation for that belief, and I think hon. Members will agree that the speech of the Attorney-General was an honest, straightforward, complete, and full statement, and no Committee or judicial inquiry could secure further information than has already been given. I think the proper course would be for the House to accept the very full statement of the Attorney-General, supplemented as it was by the speech of the Prime Minister, which dealt with the question very fully and frankly, and there does not seem to be any case for censure or further inquiry.
      I find the demand for a Select Committee rather difficult to understand if it is contended, as has been asserted, that the office of Attorney-General is essentially a judicial office, which should be separate from politicians, and never in contact with them or influenced by them. If it is true that the office of Attorney-General is so judicial and high above political considerations, I cannot see why a Select Committee of politicians should sit in judgment upon this high judicial officer. It seems to me inappropriate that Attorneys-General in the future, in discharging the duties of their office, should have to keep in mind not only their judicial functions, but contemplate the possibility that if they do not administer justice in a way which will please the Members of this House, that Members of this House will appoint a political Committee to sit in judgment upon the Attorney-General. The proposal of hon. Members below the Gangway is at variance with the fundamental theory with which they launched this attack to-day. This doctrine comes from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), who has been an Attorney General, and there are indications that the hon. Gentlemen opposite are going to support that particular view.
      I appeal to the House to take a sense of proportion about the whole business. In the first place was it likely that the article in the newspaper itself would be likely to influence the British Army? Those who know anything about the newspaper, and the political party behind

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      it, know that they have neither the influence nor the capacity to get such a newspaper into the hands of the British Army to any extent. I do not believe that that particular article was written to spread sedition among the Army. It probably had the political purpose of embarrassing the Labour party and the Labour Government, just as the Conservative party is now using it for a precisely similar purpose. One is perfectly entitled, in considering the whole of the circumstances, not only to take into account the actual legal or technical offence itself, but to take into account the motives of the publication and the object at which it was aimed. We have to take into account the consequences to the State if the prosecution went on whether it succeeded or failed. Certainly we should take these considerations into account, because it is a prosecution on a subject of importance to the State and upon a political issue.
      You cannot have a political or a State prosecution without taking into consideration questions of public policy in connection with it. Frequently the hon. and gallant Member for Dulwich and the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) have put questions in this House drawing the attention of the Government to newspaper articles or speeches, and urging the Government to engage in prosecutions. That is conclusive evidence that hon. Members opposite are continually bringing political and party pressure upon the Government, in regard to questions which are now held to be essentially judicial in their character. Therefore their position is far from logical and rational on this particular point.
      We have witnessed a rather extraordinary state of affairs during the last few weeks. It appears to me that in regard to these prosecutions the Conservative party and the Communist party outside have been vieing with each other as to how far they could injure the Government upon this matter. The fact is they have been helping each other, and if there was an alliance between the Communist and the Conservative parties, if there was a coalition between them, it could not have worked out with greater perfection than it has done during the last few days since this
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      prosecution was dropped. The acting editor of the paper concerned says not only was he surprised that the prosecution was dropped, but annoyed because apparently it was a "good stunt gone west." The same disappointment is shared by hon. Gentlemen opposite. I cannot but feel that the Communist party-has reason to say "Thank God for the Tory party." and certainly the Tory party has reason to say "Thank God for the Communist party!" I feel this is a business quite unworthy of all the trouble which has been taken in regard to it, and unworthy of all the bother caused in the country. Precedents have been put forward by the Attorney-General, not only in the case of one Attorney-General but many Attorneys-General over a long period. The eases quoted by the hen. Member for Stirling (Mr. T. Johnston) clearly shows that not dissimilar things have happened before.
      After all, the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley might have told the House something about some of the circumstances connected with political influence in certain crises that happened in connection with Ireland immediately before the War. No one can examine the history of Ireland and its political struggles without being convinced that repeatedly the carrying out of political prosecutions and the question of the release of prisoners condemned by Courts of Justice have been influenced by political pressure and by discussions and negotiations between political parties. All of us are agreed that we want to keep the law above political influences. Those of us who sit on these benches probably have as much admiration for British justice as hon. Members opposite. There are hon. Members on these benches who have been tried in the Courts. Some of them were not satisfied with their trials, but there are others who will admit that there were cases in which the Courts of Justice did their work well. I remember the case in which my hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) was concerned—the case of the Poplar £4 minimum, in which the decision was quite against a good deal of popular prejudice which was shared by hon. Members opposite. We have a great admiration for the traditions of British law, and we do not wish it to he interfered with or changed in its

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      working by the politicians. Do let us remember, however, that the office of Attorney-General is an office which is related to public policy, and that State and political prosecutions are bound up with public policy. The Attorney-General is a member of the Government, and he can be urged, and is urged, by hon. Members opposite, in this House, to engage in prosecutions; and he is repeatedly questioned and cross examined by Members of all parties when prosecutions are started. He is in all Governments a politician, and, surely, this doctrine of legal exclusiveness as far as the Attorney-General is concerned is a new doctrine which seems to have been specially saved up for the Labour Government. I think that the speech of the Attorney-General was a very full, honest, frank and straightforward utterance, which must have commanded admiration in all parts of the House, whether hon. Members agreed with it or not, while the very full and frank statement of the Prime Minister completely knocked the bottom out of this trumped-up agitation; and I am confident that, if the House votes upon the merits of the question, both the Motion of the Conservative party—unless they run away from it—and the rather ridiculous Amendment of hon. Members below the Gangway, will be decisively defeated by the House to-night.
      Mr. KEENS: The Debate, except for the last few minutes, has been largely in the hands of lawyers, who have had a great advantage in putting before us the legal point of view, but I think it is just as well to have a plain business view of the question as it presents itself to an ordinary man of business. The difficulty in which one finds oneself is that, while undoubtedly the speeches of the Prime Minister and of the Attorney-General have done a great deal to clear up the mystery that surrounded this question, the unfortunate thing, as has been suggested by the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Mr. Banks), is that there was not a little more frankness earlier, before there was an opportunity for all this suspicion to arise. I would also put it to the House in this way: Does any Member of the House suggest that, if this House comes to a decision by its vote to-night, it will thereby satisfy the country? I am not proposing to argue the merits of the case
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      at all. Whether or not the decision to prosecute was right, or whether or not the decision to abandon the prosecution was right, is not the question. The real trouble in the country began with the supplementary questions which were put in this House on the 6th August. Hon. Members will recollect that they included one question like this:
      "If, during the Parliamentary recess, we say in the country what this man has said, shall we all be prosecuted?"
      I hear an hon. Member say, "Hear, hear," but that aroused in the country a suspicion that there was a certain volume of opinion in this House which feared that, if that prosecution were proceeded with, the effect would be that others would be drawn in. I suggest that if at that time there had been placed before the House a statement as full and as frank as the statements which the Attorney-General and the Prime Minister have made to-night, the present position would not have arisen. But now comes the point, and this is the point that I want to put to the House—how can it be said that any decision come to in this House to-night is going to satisfy the country?
      9.0 P.M.
      I could not vote for a Vote of Censure, for the very obvious reason that that would be a censure on the Government. The right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment deliberately laid down what I have always understood to be the position, namely, that the office of Attorney-General is an administrative office, which should be free from political interference; and he laid down among his general political principles this very important one, that, if justice is ever to be properly administered in this country, it is absolutely necessary that that should continue to be the case. It, therefore, appears to me very illogical to move a Vote of Censure upon the Government in respect of the action of a Law Officer who theoretically is independent. When the case developed we heard that, notwithstanding the independence of the Attorney-General, there had been certain political pressure. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman was a really wonderful oration, but, in spite of all the points which he made, they were not in themselves proof. I venture to submit that this question will never be settled fairly, and the country will never be satisfied, until the matter has been in-

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      vestigated by a Select Committee and that Select Committee has issued its Report. As far as I understand the objection of the Prime Minister, it is twofold. He has stated in this House his objection that the party and the Government he represents, which are presumably being tried, if you like to put it in that way, would be in a minority of three against seven. I venture to suggest that the offer made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) has put aside that objection completely, and there can be no objection on that score. The other objection, I understand, was that the inquiry would take a very long time, and that during the whole of that time the activities of the Government would be paralysed, and it would be impossible for them to carry on. I suggest that, if the case is as clear as has been suggested by the speeches this evening, there can be no possible objection to going before a Committee, there can be no possible objection to going before a Select Committee with the offer that has been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley, and there can be no objection on the ground of time, because the Committee can be set up at once, and bring in its Report quickly. I trust, therefore, that it will be possible to come to an arrangement by which the Committee shall be set up, and that a serious attempt will be made to satisfy public opinion outside, which I am certain will not be satisfied by a vote this evening either for or against a Vote of Censure. The only way in which I believe it can possibly be satisfied is by a Select Committee being set up, and issuing its Report, and I sincerely trust that that will be the issue of to-night's Debate.
      Commander BELLAIRS: The hon. Member who spoke from the Socialist benches expressed himself as entirely satisfied with the speech of the Attorney-General. He was probably equally satisfied with the explanation which the Attorney-General had erroneously given to the House on a previous occasion. It has crossed my mind that in science two lights can make a darkness, but it only takes one legal luminary to make a darkness and to produce an absolutely puzzled state of mind. That may be my own stupidity, but what emerges? The
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      Attorney-General inadvertently misled the House on practically every single point except that the man had a very excellent military career, and he also stated that he had an excellent character. That is the only point on which he had not misled the House. It also emerges that, the Prime Minister had misled the House, and he had to make a personal explanation before the debate took place. I can hardly remember a single occasion on which a Prime Minister has been put in a similar position. It also emerges that the day after the man was arrested political pressure was brought to bear. It was brought to bear in this House. It was brought to bear by the Prime Minister, and there was an interview with the Cabinet. All these things have to be investigated. We were under the impression that the decision not to proceed with the prosecution took place on the 13th. It row emerges that it took place on a day when Parliament was sitting, and it was never thought worth while to inform Parliament that the proceedings were then to be abandoned. That is also a point that requires investigation. But what strikes me most in the whole situation—and it is a suspicion which has to be cleared up—is, that we have practically got to a position in which the law echoes back the hidden voice of political pressure. It reminds me of a saying of Dickens, that "the law knows no necessity but she has her lawyers." The distress signals of the politicians were hung out in full view of the House on 5th August, and on that very same day, within an hour or two of the questions in Parliament, the Attorney-General had surrendered. So we get to this position, which is the worst possible position into which the law can get, the old sequence of order, counter-order and disorder-first the order to prosecute, then the counter-order to abandon the prosecution, and then the disorder with a General Election to follow on this issue. It is evident to me that the Attorney-General and those who were associated with him in the Government of the country have never seen Churchill's lines—
      "Consider well, weigh strictly right and wrong,
      Resolve not quick hut, once resolved, he strong."
      The rule on which he appears to have gone is the instructions which were given

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      by Dogberry to the Watch in "Much Ado About Nothing." It is so exact a parallel that I will read it.
      "DOGBERRY: This is your charge; you shall comprehend all vagrom men. You are to bid any man stand in the King's name.
      WATCHMAN: How if he will not stand?
      DOGBERRY: Why, take no note of him but let him go, and then presently call the Watch together and thank God you are rid of a knave."
      The only difference is that the Attorney-General calls the Watch together and says, "Thank God we are rid of a martyr." He cited the case which was dealt with by the present Lord Birkenhead, but Lord Birkenhead got the prosecuted men entirely to abandon their position and to give a pledge, and he went into Court and he gave the sternest possible warning that there would be no subsequent eases of the abandonment of a prosecution, no acceptance of apologies, no acceptance of regret, but that the men would be prosecuted and sent to penal servitude if they were guilty of breaches of the law, and of course it has a most salutary effect. But what have the Government done? They have created a precedent which will make it more difficult than ever to prosecute any man in the future on these charges. It would be far better, even on the assumption that the case would collapse, which I do not believe for a moment, to prosecute, and if the case had collapsed it would have shown the necessity fur strengthening the law. After all he was a Communist. He knows perfectly well what would happen in the case of any man who went against the Government in Russia. For infinitely more trivial things men were prosecuted and shot in Russia.
      The Attorney-General made a strong point of the fact that Campbell was a young man, deemed to be of excellent character, and that his military career was exceptionally good. I have not been able to understand the argument that that would get him off, because it seems to me an aggravation of the offence that he had had a good military career, that his training had been excellent and that he was a well-educated man. After all, if he had been brought up in a Communist Sunday school and had imbibed these things there I could forgive him. His early training would account for it. If a young soldier, sailor, or airman had, as a result of this incitement, mutinied he would have gone to penal servitude, whereas this man has
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      got off scot free. I believe representations were made by. generals and admirals of the extreme danger of this case. If the House does not agree to the Vote of Censure, and we subsequently divide on the question of inquiry, that alone is a question on which the inquiry would be able to settle matters. The two worst revolutions, accompanied by immense loss of life, in the history of modern times, the French Revolution and Reign of Terror and the Russian Reign of Terror, began by mutinies in the Army. That is what this man was trying to bring about. May I also remind the House of what Sir Henry Maine said in 1885—and no greater authority in legal matters could possibly be cited:
      "If any Government should be tempted, even for a moment, to forego its function of compelling obedience to the law it would ho guilty of a crime which hardly any other virtue could redeem, and which century after century might fail to repair."
      The Government have foregone that function in this case. When it was known that a Socialist Government was going to come into power I wrote to the "Times" and offered a word of advice to the Prime Minister. It was very presumptuous on my part, but it was a question in which I had taken an active interest for many years past. I asked him, with the new precedent of a Government by a minority, to take his courage in both hands and rule the country with a small Cabinet. I apply my criticism to all Governments. If you have a Cabinet of 20 men, however wise they may be, collective folly will result. You cannot rule this country with so large a Cabinet. There is this disadvantage in regard to the present position, of which the electors will also have to take note. We are not only ruled by a large Cabinet, but the Prime Minister is amenable to his party in a way that no other Prime Minister has ever been amenable. You set up a Parliamentary Committee to watch over his actions, to which the Cabinet have to offer explanations before ever they come to this House. So you get this result, that political pressure interfering with the course of justice is much greater than it has ever been before. I ask the House to remember that we have endeavoured to prevent any interference with the course of justice ever since the impeachment of Lord Verulam, better, but erroneously, know as Lord Bacon, who

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      admitted the justice of the punishment which was given. In order to prevent interference with the course of justice, we have removed the judges from this House. This particular case, the Attorney-General being set up to whom the Public Prosecutor is responsible—I think it was set up in 1879—is almost the only case where political pressure can be brought to bear.
      I think hon. Members opposite must acknowledge that there is some reason for the suspicion held by two parties in this House that political pressure was brought to bear—[HON. MEMBERS "No !"]—and that the Attorney-General was amenable to that pressure. If they acknowledge that we have reason for that suspicion, they ought not to object to inquiry. The whole of the details are obscure. It is a mystery. The Attorney-General is almost as respectable a mystery as the mystery of St. Patrick himself. There is the strongest reason for inquiry. I think there are about 30 different interpretations of the parable of the unjust steward, but every one of the interpretations agrees that the party was guilty. If hon. Members opposite resist inquiry. I am quite certain that the country will come to the conclusion that they dare not face inquiry.
      Mr. HEMMERDE: I am glad to have en opportunity before this Debate closes of saying what I think about this agitation which has been going on in the country during the last month or two. How anybody can possibly think, after listening to the statements made by the Attorney-General to-day, that there is a case for inquiry absolutely passes my comprehension. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. Banks) quite frankly said that he came down to the House to-day with the intention of speaking and voting against the Government, but after what he had heard here to-day from the Attorney-General he got up and spoke for the Government, and I understand that he intends to vote with the Government. Here is a man, a trained lawyer, who comes to that conclusion, and yet we have layman after layman getting up and asking us—it is a very curious theory—what harm will an inquiry do? What I want to know is, what good will an inquiry do? Why on earth when the Prime Minister has made a statement and the Attorney-General
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      has made a statement is an inquiry necessary, and what good purpose could any Committee serve?
      My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) has said that he wants inquiry. Apparently he wants documents. What documents? You are not entitled in a Committee to have roving inquiries as to what documents exist. What documents does he think exist beyond those that have been quoted here to-day? I knew nothing about the matter before to-day. When I was asked about it a week or so ago, I said I had no doubt the Attorney-General would have a perfectly good answer. He does not happen to be a friend of mine, but I had not the least doubt about his competence to deal with a matter of that sort. He had an absolutely complete answer, and he produced documents to show that he is supported in his views by men whom no one could suspect of having Labour views; just the professional advisers that he would have, who are in this matter entirely above party. He is frankness itself, and tells us exactly what the position is.
      What is it that we want to find out? I wonder how long tins Debate would have lasted if there had been a majority behind the Government. Is it not merely this, that because we happen to be governing this country with a minority Government there have been efforts made, sometimes, I regret to say, from the benches on my right, to put upon this Government humiliation that will eventually bring about their fall. It seems to me that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has been particularly active in that. On more than one occasion Motions have been moved in this House with a view to, more or less, censuring the Government, the object of which has been not to drive the Government out of office but to put upon the Government. humiliation after humiliation, the cumulative effect of which will be to discredit the Government in the country. The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Keens) said the, country will never be satisfied without some sort of inquiry. Apparently his view is that this House collectively cannot satisfy the country, but a Select Committee of the House can. I wonder how many people in the country read the Report of Select Committees.

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      I do not believe that many of my hon. Friends or many of our opponents who have been about the country during the last few months have found that the country is really agitated about this question. Is either of the two great parties who are criticising the Government on this question burning to have an election upon the question as to whether the Attorney-General did or did not do what he says he did? Has there ever been such a mare's nest as has been exposed here this afternoon? The newspapers have been very busy. I will take the "Chronicle," for instance, which published in two columns the other day a full account of what they said happened at a Cabinet meeting, telling actually what happened at the Cabinet meeting, as though they had been there—a Cabinet which never took place. Certainly it never took place as they suggest for the purpose of considering this question.
      Now we find that the Attorney-General says that, before he met the Prime Minister, and certainly before it went to the Cabinet at all, he had made up his mind. Sir Guy Stephenson said so. Are we to disbelieve the Attorney-General? Are we to disbelieve Sir Guy Stephenson? Are we to disbelieve the Prime Minister? Are we to believe merely the newspapers which invent fictitious accounts of Cabinet meetings? Is that to be the new form of carrying on politics? Is that what four ex-Law Officers of the Crown tell us is bringing the law into contempt? You cannot govern a country merely by reading the rubbish that is printed in the newspapers. For the last two months the whole public atmosphere has been vitiated with this sort of thing, which no sane person believes and of which everybody is sick.
      To-day we find a Vote of Censure being moved against the Government because the Attorney-General has done what he was perfectly right in doing. We are told by Lord Birkenhead, a well-known authority on sedition, and others, that this practice of. the Attorney-General considering political questions is something quite new and subversive of all decent government in this country. It was only the other day that the Attorney-General was a Member of the Cabinet. If the Attorney-General was a Member of the Cabinet, would he be guilty of
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      some sort of offence if, with his colleagues he discussed the question as to whether a prosecution was desirable or not desirable? Where do we get all this advice from? I have never heard of it before. It is merely brought up because of a new situation—a minority Government doing unexpectedly well. I am dealing with a question that is relevant, the question whether there is any reason for censuring the Government, and I say not only do I believe there is no reason for censuring the Government, but I do not believe anybody would listen to the Attorney-General's speech and believe that. Where is the Vote of Censure going? Member after Member rises and says he is going to vote for a Committee, not for censure at all. It was what we were told; that the Constrvatives would be running away from the Vote of Censure and trying to get a Committee to embarrass the Government.
      The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) tells us—in a most amusing speech, to which it was a perfect delight to listen—what an excellent tribunal a Select Committee is, and he tells us how there was a Select Committee to deal with the Jameson Raid and another to deal with the Marconi case. Is there any suggestion that this twopenny-halfpenny matter has any sort of resemblance to the grave constitutional issues raised by the Jameson Raid, or the great moral and personal matters raised in the Marconi case? Those were serious matters. I caught my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley pointing out how it could never do any harm to the Government to have an inquiry of this sort. What good is it going to do? When is it going to end? How many humiliations of this sort are going to be put upon the Government? Every time they want to deal with some side issue, they will invent some idea that some Minister has gone wrong. They will work up a newspaper agitation, and they can do it admirably because the newspapers in this country are all on the one side—not, the side of the Government—and demand another Committee. "Oh, well," they say, "if you refuse a demand for a Committee, it shows you have something to hide." Why cannot they suggest to us to-day, any one of them, what it is we want to hide? From the moment the Attorney-General and the Prime Minister finished, all of them

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      left the House and left the Debate to go on in a desultory way. While one of their Members says he is going to vote with us, another says that he is not going to vote for the Vote of Censure but a Committee. They do not attempt to tear the arguments of the Attorney-General to pieces. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley had nothing to say to the House of that. A man of the greatest and ripest experience in the House listens to the Attorney-General's speech and has not a word of guidance to give to the House. All he has to say is he is going to support the Amendment of his learned colleague. We got no reason from him why we were to disbelieve the Attorney-General. I wonder what he would have thought when he was Attorney-General and had got up in this House and given an honest account of the matter that there should be a Committee to inquire into his truthfulness. That is what it comes to.
      I hope the Government will stand firm. Hon. Members have been attacking the honour of the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General. They are attacking the honour of the party. It is a Vote of Censure upon the Government. The Government is supposed to have done something wrong because it is not only to say that the prosecution has been improperly withdrawn, it has been a sort of impropriety that is dishonest. They have to show that the Government have not only acted foolishly but have practically acted corruptly in this matter. There is not a rag of evidence to show it.
      There has been a newspaper campaign—rather a base Press campaign—on the question. When the hon. and learned Member for Swindon said there was a good deal to make people suspicious, I do not agree. I do not know what there was to make people suspicious. This question of starting a prosecution and withdrawing it is always bound to happen. There is nothing more dishonest, when you have started a prosecution and come to the conclusion that it is wrong, than to go on with it. I have known that done by big men. The wise thing to do if you think a mistake has been made, is to decide quickly. The Attorney-General did that and settled it within a few hours. It seems to me that his statement, supported all the way through by docu-
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      ments to an extent I had no idea he would be able to do, absolutely destroys the whole basis upon which this attack has been built. I hope the Government will not attempt to accept any form of judicial committee or any form of compromise. Upon this issue that attacks the honour of our leaders, let them drive us out and send us to the country as soon as they like. Upon that issue I will fight, and we all will fight, as hard as if our personal honour was involved. I particularly appeal to some of my old friends on the Liberal benches not to have anything to do with mere political manœuvres of this sort, to remember the great causes now in our hands. If they bring down the Government to-day it will be upon their heads in the country. We have on these benches a great instrument for good that might last us a year or two or three years more if we do not go and fall over minor points. I appeal to them to-night not to have anything to do with these petty manœuvres, with these man hunts, because that is what the attack on the Attorney-General has been. We once and for all challenge the Opposition to throw us out if they dare and we will come back here and show them what the country thinks of discreditable manœuvres.
      Sir LESLIE SCOTT: A good many hon. Members who have spoken have referred to the speech of the Attorney-General as a speech which disposes of the case made against the Government That view, in my submission, is entirely mistaken and unfounded, and I want to put before the House the reason why I say that. There have been in this Debate two quite separate issues involved, a major issue and a minor issue. The minor issue has been the fitness of the Attorney-General for his office and the question as to whether he has carried out his duties properly or not—an important issue, but nothing like as important as the other. The other issue is whether the executive Government have, for political reasons, interfered with the course of justice. That is the major issue and an issue of vast importance to this country. The Attorney-General's speech was almost entirely devoted to hat he did before the executive Government came upon the field and intervened in the matter and what happened afterwards. The intervention of the executive Government was, so far as we can gather, chiefly at the

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      interview at 5 o'clock on the afternoon of the 6th August. Up to then the Attorney-General was concerned by himself with the conduct of the case, in answering certain questions that were put in the House that afternoon, and the interview with the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) and so on. After that interview the fatal decision had been taken and nothing that happened afterwards was any longer of major importance. The Attorney-General appealed—though he did not say so—to the sympathy of the House, and I am sure that the House felt considerable sympathy towards him in his account of what had been done, and particularly in his own claim to a fair hearing. As he put it, he was on his trial. But that is not the big question which the House has before it. The big question is the question that has agitated the whole Press of the country ever since the strange withdrawal of the prosecution, and the strange announcement by Mr. Travers Humphreys that it was withdrawn because representations had been made that the article was innocent and that no crime had been committed. It was that statement that made the country uneasy, and which made all of us who are concerned with the independent administration of justice uneasy, and it is to that issue that the Debate has really been addressed. On that issue I submit that the explanations which we have had up to now are insufficient. We do not know why the Director of Public Prosecutions was told to go to the Prime Minister's room.
      Mr. HEMMERDE: The Attorney-General told you.
      Sir L. SCOTT: We know that the Prime Minister discussed the matter with the Home Secretary before the interview at five o'clock. We know that the Home Secretary, of all Members of the Cabinet, has been particularly concerned in what we may call purely party politics, the consideration of the party position. We know that that interview was a short one, and that during the interview the advice, to use a mild word, was given by the Prime Minister to the Attorney-General. We know that after that interview the Attorney-General told one of the Members who had asked a question that afternoon that it would be unnecessary to raise the matter on the Adjournment because the prosecution was going to be withdrawn.
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      It is not irrelevant to consider what the character of the offence was in respect of which the charge was brought. The right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) said that in his view it was a case in which, perhaps, it might have been better not to prosecute originally. With great respect I do not agree with that view. My view is that the article was a very serious breach of the Incitement to Mutiny Act and that if ever a prosecution is to take place under that Act that was an appropriate case for the prosecution to take place.
      I have compared the language of this article with the language in the case of the King v. Bowman, which was referred to by the Counsel for the Treasury when the case was withdrawn. That was a prosecution in 1912 for a very similar article in a newspaper called "The Syndicalist." In that case there had been no attempt to bring the article directly to the notice of the soldiers, but, in spite of that, and although the Judge directed the jury that if they thought that it was only comment on the use of arms in industrial disputes, they were to acquit, the jury convicted, and the publisher was sentenced to nine months' hard labour and the printers to six months' hard labour each. Campbell's was a more serious case because of the language used. The language used is a direct appeal to soldiers, sailors and airmen not to turn their rifles when called upon in the direction which they were ordered to turn them, but to turn them against capitalism and the bosses, and to form committees in the Army in order that they might be ready for the social revolution.
      If any language is capable of inciting to mutiny, that is, and in this case the evidence is—it was stated in the "Workers' Weekly"—that both Aldershot and Farnborough were plastered all over with copies of this appeal calling on the soldiers and inciting them to mutiny. No wonder that the Attorney-General formed the opinion that this was a case-of a serious offence in which a prosecution was right. No wonder that it was so described by counsel for the prosecution and that it was so described by the magistrate on the first hearing. No wonder that Mr. Campbell, when he was arrested, said to the police officer who arrested him, "I was expecting this." That being so, we have got

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      this position, that on that morning of the 6th August, when the prosecution took place, nothing had arisen to change the Attorney-General's mind in the matter. Let me read to the House a passage from the statement by Sir Guy Stephenson, for which I am indebted to the courtesy of the Attorney-General:
      "At 5 p.m. on the 6th August I went to the Prime Minister's room in the House of Commons in response to a telephone message from the Attorney-General. The Prime Minister was not there when I arrived and before he came in the Attorney-General inquired of me what I knew of Campbell in connection with the Workers'Weekly' and generally as to his character. I replied that although Campbell had accepted responsibility for the article he was not the regular editor of the paper, but was only acting as such, and that nothing was known against his character. On the Prime Minister entering the room he said that the Home Secretary had told him that he never authorised the prosecution and he asked me how it came to be instituted"
      a very pointed query from the Prime Minister
      "whereupon the Attorney-General intervened and said that he was solely responsible. The Prime Minister expressed the view"
      I ask the House to note this—
      "that the prosecution of Campbell would give the Communists just the advertisement which they wanted and generally that the prosecution would do more harm than good."
      HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
      Sir L. SCOTT: I note the political views of hon. Members opposite on this prosecution. Then, and not until then, the Attorney-General said that he had come to the conclusion that the prosecution ought to be withdrawn. Of that statement of the facts, coming from an absolutely impartial source, from a man who is used to being very careful in his records, I ask the House to say that it is clear that influence was brought to bear by the Prime Minister, after consultation with the Home Secretary, on the Attorney-General for the purpose of seeing that the prosecution was not continued. Judged by the tenor of the language used that is a fair comment. In my view on that alone the Vote of Censure would be justified, but I want to say quite candidly for my part that, in the circumstances of this case, I think that it would be more satisfactory to have a further investigation.
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      [Laughter.] Hon. Members are pleased to laugh, but that is the view which I have held from the start, and I have followed the matter very closely. There is no answer to the demand for investigation. I leave it at that, having regard to the time and the necessity for allowing opportunity for further speeches.
      Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
      May I, as an old Member of the House, and to a certain extent as a detached and independent observer of its movements, attempt to state to the House what I regard as the Parliamentary situation. Some of my hon. Friends on the opposite side of the House think that this issue is important and momentous enough to make a demand upon the country (which wants to attend to business) for all the dislocation and the turmoil of a General Election. If the question could be put from the Chair in this way, ''Shall we or shall we not have an immediate General Election on this issue? "I doubt whether there would be ten men in the Lobby in favour of it. We have got into a position that appears impossible and too absurd. The indictment of my hon. and learned Friend who has just spoken —he wound up in a more conciliatory tone than his previous observations would have suggested—was that undae pressure was put on the Attorney-General to abandon a State prosecution. I put it to him that if there be anything in the world on which a Government has a right, to intervene in the proceedings of its Law Officers it is upon the question of a State trial. Who will deny that? Will my hon. and learned Friend deny that when lie was under a Prime Minister the Prime Minister had not the right to say to him, "This State prosecution will not be in the interests of the State, but against the State."
      Is there a Member on the Liberal benches who is prepared to subscribe to the doctrine of heresy-hunting with regard to opinions? The pioneers of the Liberal creed, John Stuart Mill and Lord Macaulay, over and over again insisted that the very worst W ay to deal with a violent and insane minority in the country was to put it in a position of martyrdom, with all the publicity that that involved. I know that some of my hon. Friends opposite are unable to make a distinction between Communism and

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      the doctrines of the Government. Do hon. Members know that the party which broke down the Communist section in Glasgow was made up of the men who sit on the Labour benches? In the old days an Irishman had only to get into prison and he got a seat in Parliament. The party of this man, the writer of this eloquent and insane article, whose dangerous influence is said to be so great over the working people of this country, brought in a Communistic motion at a great meeting of the Labour party, and there was a majority of 16 to one against it. That is the harm that this gentleman has done to the party. If I were a member of the party opposite the thing I would deprecate most would be an attempt to put down the preaching even of an insane and evil gospel by prosecution in Police Courts or elsewhere. I think it would be wrong to vote against the Government on the point.
      Now I turn to the House generally. Does anyone want a General Election to-day? If this House wants a General Election it is putting itself up against the unanimous opinion of the people of the nation. There is not to-day a section of our population, with all the difficulties in trade and the rest—I do not care whether they are Labour supporters or Conservative supporters or Liberal supporters—who would be in favour of an Election; at any rate they would be an infinitesimal minority. If an Election took place on the Russian Treaty that would be a serious issue, but on this miserable tempest in the tiniest little teapot ever introduced into political life, to ask the country to have a General Election is madness. I do not say that my hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench have not some responsibility for accepting the situation as meaning an Election. I leave that between them and their God and their consciences. But, speaking for the man in the street, I am convinced that the worst thing we can do for any party is to have a General Election on this miserable tinpot issue. Then what do I suggest? I am not sure that the Leader of the Opposition violently desires to bring this to a General Election by a vote tonight. Judging by his benign and serene character, he world regard it as a very stupid thing for his party to do. I think
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      it would be a stupid thing for the Liberals to do. They are a bit bucked-up by the great meetings they have recently held. If they had seen as many tempestuous and uproarious and enthusiastic meetings as I have seen—meetings which ended in nothingness—they might think differently. My old father said once, "What is a gentleman to do if he is insulted? "The answer was, "A gentleman never insults, and if he insults he is not a gentleman." The talk of some of my hon. Friends of the Labour party is a little like that of my countrymen at Donnybrook Fair, who used to trail their coats. Let us not trail our coats. We have something higher here than the interests of our party. I am going to do a daring thing, but in order that we might get cool and consider the situation and see whether some means can be found which would not appeal to the extremists of any party in the House, I beg to move, "That the Debate be now a adjourned."
      Mr. BALDWIN: I did not mean to take part in this Debate, but circumstances have arisen which, I think, render my intervention for five minutes necessary. I am rather surprised at my right hon. Friend opposite pouring scorn on our Debate to-day as being a teapot discussion. He cannot have forgotten that teapots have played a very great part in history. The upsetting of a small amount of tea on Boston Harbour changed the history of the world. Then there is a celebrated oilfield in America called Teapot Dome. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh I "] I see the allusion is understood. Its fame to-day is so great that those gentlemen who feel there was an irregular procedure in connection with that oilfield parade the streets of New York wearing silver teapots to remind their opponents of what they consider to be the slip they made. I cannot support what was said by my right hon. Friend about the need for any adjournment. The issue is far too simple for that. I have listened with the greatest. care to the most important part of this Debate, and I admit that to some extent my opinions have been modified by what I have heard. But the very admissions of the Government are quite sufficient in my mind to show that those very political considerations deprecated so much and so earnestly by the Prime Minister have

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      played their part in this affair that we have been debating, and the reasons that lead us to that conclusion will be urged before the end of this Debate by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Marylebone (Sir D. Hogg).
      It is perfectly obvious to us what the tactics of the Government are in this matter. They are hoping to defeat us by Liberal votes and they are hoping to defeat the Liberals by our votes and to ride off in triumph from the considered judgment of the House by splitting the largest body of opinion in this House which is in complete agreement as to the necessity for an investigation into this matter. I only rise to say that we on this side of the House, at any rate, are not going to be the dupes of any procedure of that kind. We accept on this side the statements that have been made; we make no reflection on the honour of the Attorney-General and we consider that the right way of meeting this case, after having listened to the evidence which has been put forward, is to give the whole of our support to the Amendment which seeks for a committee of investigation. My right hon. Friend who spoke last said something with which we all sympathise about the possibility of a General Election. Whether there be one or not rests entirely with the Government. If the Government are afraid of an investigation, or if they prefer to ride off on this issue, and discuss at length in the calm temperature of this House the advantages of the Russian Treaty, that is their business. But for ourselves, our course is clear, and we give our support to the Amendment.
      Sir DOUGLAS HOGG rose—
      Mr. SPEAKER: I must point out that there is a Motion before the House "That the Debate be now ad- 10.0 P.M. journed." It is necessary to dispose of that Motion before we proceed with the discussion.
      Mr. O'CONNOR: I proposed that Motion as I thought it in the interests of the House generally, but as I have received no support, I beg leave to withdraw.
      Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
      Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
      Sir. D. HOGG: My right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne), in moving the Motion which has been debated, stated quite clearly the issue which we asked the House of Commons to determine, but in view of some of the speeches which have been made since, I think it only right to the house and fair to the learned Attorney-General that. I should re-formulate the charge which we make and into which an investigation is now sought. The charge is not a charge aganst the Attorney-General of making an administrative blunder in the course of the discharge of his duties. That is not the complaint which we bring before the House of Commons. The charge which we make, and which we understand those below the Gangway think should be investigated, is a charge that the Government of this country used their political influence in party interests, in order to interfere with the even administration of justice in this country. That charge is not made for the first time by us. It is a charge which, as my right hon. Friend reminded the House, made in terms, and in boastful terms, nearly two months ago by the editor of the very paper whose prosecution is being discussed. [An HON. MEMBER.: "That is not evidence!"] I hear someone opposite say that that is not evidence, and I agree. That is perhaps a reason why investigation rather than condemnation should Follow, but I want it to be clearly understood that this charge which we seek to have investigated, and which the Government refuse to have investigated, is a charge which has been made broadcast in the public Press of this country for many weeks past, and a charge which they have been unable to meet until they attempted to meet it to-day in a way which I hope I shall satisfy the House was eminently unsatisfactory.
      The Attorney-General in a long and full statement of his connection with this prosecution—a statement made with all the ability of a very skilled advocate and with great detail—developed exactly what had happened from the 25th July when the article was published, down to the date in September when the action of the Government was challenged in this House, and he fortified his account with a full

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      statement from a number of public officials, including Sir Guy Stephenson and Sir Archibald Bodkin, as to the part which they played in the prosecution. But the relevant period for this House to investigate is not a period of two months, and the relevant persons from whom we desire information are not the public officials who acted in the matter. The relevant period is a period of just over one hour on the 6th August, 1924, and the relevant information is not the information of public officials who loyally discharged the duties they were called upon to perform but is information from Members of the Government and Members of this House who were concerned in the doings of that hour. On the 6th August, at four o'clock, the Attorney-General told the House of Commons that in his opinion the article in the "Workers' Weekly" constituted a breach of the law—and I do not think anybody who read it could doubt the correctness of that legal opinion—and he went on to say: "The editor has accepted responsibility and has been arrested." At five o'clock on the 6th August, as we know now, the Attorney-General had decided that the prosecution should be withdrawn. What had induced him to make that sudden alteration of opinion? The 30th September was the first opportunity which we had of asking that question. At that time, as the House will remember, we were all under the impression that the prosecution had not been withdrawn on the 6th August, but on the 13th August, a week later, and the Attorney-General on that date informed the House that, having become uneasy as to the exact position of Campbell, he caused the fullest inquiries to be made as to the extent of his responsibility. These are the words, and I should like the House to have them in mind:
      "I therefore caused the fullest inquiries to be made both as to the extent of his responsibility and also as to his character antecedents… As a result of these inquiries the following facts were brought to my notice by the Director of Public Prosecutions."
      First, that Campbell was not in the regular employment of the newspaper, but had been merely engaged for a short time; secondly, that his responsibility appeared to be very limited; thirdly, that what he had published had not been written or composed by him, and had merely been a cutting from some other
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      publication; fourthly, that he was not a member of the Political Bureau, and was pot in any way responsible for the policy of the paper; and, finally, that his military record was a good one. We know now that, although he was only temporarily editor of the "Workers' Weekly," he had long been editor of the sister publication carrying on in the same interest, known as the "Worker" We know now that this publication, so far from being a cutting from a newspaper, was, in fact, composed by Campbell's express direction for this paper, and was noted in his own handwriting in the copy which was found by the police. We know now that, so far from his not being responsible for the control of the paper, he was actually a member of the Political Bureau, which controls its policy, and that he had been made such a member by direct instructions of the Communist central body at Moscow. We know now that, although his military record was excellent, his political record was vile. He was a member of the Central Executive of the Communist party of this country. He had been, and I think still was, General Secretary of the lied International of Labour Unions, and he was by direct orders of Moscow put in a leading position on the political bureau of the Communists here.
      Those facts, I assume, were not known to the Attorney-General when he made up his mind that this prosecution should be withdrawn. But if the fullest inquiry, which he assured the House he had made, had taken the form of proper inquiries instead of a. conversation with some political sympathisers of Mr. Campbell on his own back benches, he would have ascertained those facts. They throw a very different light upon Mr. Campbell's antecedents and character. It does not quite stop there, because although these were the reasons which were given to the House of Commons the House will remember that counsel for the prosecution, on the 13th August, gave quite different reasons to the Magistrate why the prosecution was being withdrawn. I still cannot help regretting that the Attorney-General last week, when he was asked about this matter, gave an answer, which my right hon. Friend in moving this Motion read, and which I think undoubtedly conveyed to every Member of the House who heard it, that the

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      Attorney was entirely ignorant of what Mr. Travers Humphreys had said or intended to say to the Magistrate and that he had only found out the morning before he gave his answer on Tuesday last. Whereas the truth is that we know now from Mr. Travers Humphreys' statement that Mr. Travers Humphreys, when he was given the grounds which the Attorney-General put forward as being grounds for the withdrawal of the prosecution, was so concerned at, their inadequacy and at the impossibility of putting them seriously before the magistrate, that he went and hunted up the Attorney-General at his own club and went through those grounds one by one with the Attorney-General, and with the Attorney-General's own assent struck out the whole of them execpt the reference to the war record. We know further that the statement which Mr. Travers Humphreys made on the following day to the magistrate was a statement which he had made after a discussion with the Attorney-General, and was, as he himself said, a statement which he understood from the Attorney-General, the latter desired should be made to the Court.
      I cannot help regretting that those facts were not stated to the House of Commons when the question was raised last week However, what was the explanation that Mr. Travers Humphreys made? The explanation he gave was not the "irresponsible temporary editor" which obviously would not wash, the explanation he gave was "representations which had been made," which as he himself explains referred to the statements which were made in the House of Commons on the 6th August. What were those statements? They were statements first of all by the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division (Mr. Maxton), that the point of view advocated in the article was shared by a large number of those sitting on those benches, and made by the hon. Member for the Gorbals Division (Mr. Buchanan) that the article expressed largely the views and findings of Labour Party Conferences, and also the views of some of the men who are at present sitting on the Front Bench. There was the statement made, I think, by the hon. Member for North Lanark (Mr. Dickson) that if this prosecution and such prosecutions went on, the Govern-
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      ment would probably lose half their party. If those were the grounds on which the Attorney-General directed the prosecution to be dropped, does anybody in this House say that those were proper grounds? But it does not rest entirely, or indeed mainly, with the Attorney-General, although he has most loyally and most chivalrously, as I should have expected, sought to take the blame on his own shoulders. We know now that, after those points had been raised and those threats uttered in this House by Members on the opposite benches, at five o'clock there was a meeting in the Prime Minister's room, and I noticed, the Prime Minister will allow me to remind him, that he never told us, although he was specifically asked, how it was that the Attorney-General rang up the Director, not to come and see him in his room, but to come and meet him in the Prime Minister's room
      The PRIME MINISTER: I do not know. I did not ring up, but my information was that the Assistant Director was in the Attorney's room, and came to my room.
      Sir D. HOGG: The Prime Minister, I am sure, knows that I am not doubting the good faith of any statement he makes, but will he allow me to remind him that it does not quite fit in with what the Attorney has told us and what Sir Guy Stephenson's written statement said, which is that Sir Guy was rung up, from the Attorney-General's room, at the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and instructed to come and meet him at the Prime minister room. So that for some reason—and I can only guess what the reason was—because the Prime Minister had so directed, the Attorney-General instructs the Assistant Director to come urgently down to the Prime Minister's room at the House of Commons, arid to meet him there, and to meet him, obviously, about this prosecution. What happens when they get there I think, when the House remembers what we have been told, it will see whether there is not a case for inquiry. The Prime Minister comes in a moment or two after the Attorney, and, on his entering the room, the Prime Minister says that the Home Secretary had told him that he never authorised the prosecution.

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      It is a remarkable fact that we have never heard from anybody yet how it was that the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister, after sending for the Attorney, had been in consultation as to who authorised this prosecution. We have had no statement from the Home Secretary. We understood he had come back from Geneva especially about this matter, but we have not heard him this evening, and we do not know who approached him or what pressure was put upon him. We do not know what passed between him and the Prime Minister; we only know that the Prime Minister comes into the room protesting that the Home Secretary had never authorised the prosecution, and demanding to know how it came to be instituted. We know, further, that the Prime Minister expressed the view that the prosecution would do more harm than good, and that after that statement from the Prime Minister the next thing that happens is that the Attorney-General says: "I have come to the conclusion that the prosecution ought to be withdrawn." Is it unfair for us on these benches to say that that raises a case for inquiry? Is it unfair for us to say, at least, that when we find Counsel, on the instructions of the Attorney-General, treating what happened in the House of Commons as the explanation of the withdrawal of the prosecution, when we find that what did happen in the House of Commons was a series of threats of loss of votes if the Labour party carried out the prosecution, and if we find that before the Attorney-General arrives at any conclusion, or states any conclusion as to the withdrawal of the prosecution, he is first told by the Prime Minister he ought not to have instituted it, is it to be wondered at if we on this side of the House say that the interests of justice demand that we should have a clear finding after a seaching investigation as to what it really was that caused this prosecution to be withdrawn?
      I know my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies naturally wants a reasonable opportunity for answering, and I do not want to take up too much time, but I have been dealing with matters all of which are matters of record, and come from admissions from the Government themselves, and I say on those admitted facts there is an ample case at least for an inquiry into the motives and
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      the circumstances which underlay the withdrawal of this prosecution. It is not a question of whether or not it was wise in the first instance to institute a prosecution of Communists. 1 probably should find myself not entirely in agreement with some of the views expressed on opposite benches as to that. But when the prosecution has been instituted, when it has been brought before the Courts of this country, when there is a competent magistrate whose duty it is to decide whether there is a proper case to go before a jury, then for the Government to intervene with the Attorney-General, and the Attorney-General, after that intervention and after these threats from his own side, suddenly to come to the conclusion that that prosecution is to be withdrawn from the purview of the magistrate, that is, I say, a matter which urgently demands an inquiry, and an impartial inquiry, at the earliest possible moment
      It has been said by the Prime Minister that it is the right of the Executive to advise the Attorney-General upon matters of policy. I am not quite sure that I should entirely accept the position as set out by the Prime Minister. When I was Attorney-General, at any rate, when once a prosecution was instituted, 1 never took advice or counsel, or brooked interference from any Minister or anybody else in the question whether it should be withdrawn. That was a matter which, rightly or wrongly, I regarded as my duty, and a duty which I ought to exercise judicially and uninfluenced by any outside person. But be that as it may, our complaint here is not merely that the Government interfered, but that the reason why the Government interfered was manifestly, when one reads what happened on the 6th August, the pressure brought to bear upon them by their own back benches. Speaking for myself quite frankly, in my own opinion, the facts which I have outlined seem to me to make such a case as would have justified a direct Vote of Censure. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why are you ratting then?"]The one thing I am anxious about is that this conduct shall not go uninvestigated and unchallenged. If I find, as I do find in this House of Commons, a considerable body of opinion, which, while disturbed in its mind over what has happened, is not satisfied that the case is proved, I am quite content that the question should be

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      fully and exhaustively investigated by a body which can ascertain the facts. Then he says if there is any better defence than that which has been put up so far, by all means let it be produced. But the one thing I am concerned about is, if I were to press for the Vote of Censure to the exclusion of any other means of redress it might involve that the Government would get off without either inquiry or censure. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] The jubilant shouts from the Socialist Benches are the best proof that we have correctly divined their tactics, and the vote which my friends and I are going to give in half-an-hour's time will be the best answer to the tactics that can be given.
      I hope that this, as the Attorney-General quite rightly said, is not to be treated merely as an attack on a Minister or merely as a party move. I seriously do say to the House of Commons that, in my judgment at least, the facts which I have outlined do constitute a grave case at least for inquiry, as to whether or not the Government have departed from what to my mind is the most essential bulwark of our liberty, that is, the freedom of the judiciary from any executive interference. It is a thing which we fought for hundreds of years to obtain. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I do not mean by one particular party; it is the common birthright of all of us who are Englishmen, all of us who are Britons. Anything that tends to undermine that bulwark of liberty, anything which tends to shake the confidence of the public in the independence of the judiciary, is a thing which ought to he unsparingly condemned and unhesitatingly exposed.
      Mr. THOMAS: On the last occasion when my right hon. and learned Friend and myself were engaged in consultation and debate upon the question of Communism, he gave me some advice that I am going to follow to-night. Communists have never expressed a keen love for myself; that is why I am defending them to-night. They had gone to the length of taking steps that would have done what my right hon. and learned Friend has just said. They had gone to the length of bringing about, not by a sham fight, but by steps that only I and those in my position could stop—a revolution! I took the risk of trying to give expression in a
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      practical way to the aims of the party that sits here to-night. I engaged my right hon. and learned Friend to go to the Law Courts, and defend me. We knew then, as he knew, the tactics that they would employ would be to throw as much mud as possible in the hope that it would stick—some of it. He said to me, "Now, Mr. Thomas, you will have against you a very brilliant counsel, and counsel are very clever people." He said, "They can make black look white, but do not you be drawn by them, and ignore all that they say, because there is very little in it." The advice was worth the price I paid for it, and I have been remembering it for the last half hour. I am going to do precisely the same, and I am going to ignore the very brilliant legal effort which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has just made. I am going to ignore it, because if, after 25 years' work in the trade union movement in this country, I am to he defeated because I am a Communist, I will let the responsibility and the consequences rest with the lawyers.
      But we have had another exposition of the real meaning of the. Leader of the Opposition in an explanation in a short innocent four minutes. I hope it has been duly noted by try hon. Friends below the Gangway. What is the real explanation of this change of front? Let us examine it for a moment. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ladywood (Mr. N. Chamberlain) said two nights ago, "I cannot trust the Liberal party." Since when they have had consultation, and they have come to the conclusion that they may run away and in order to stop it they have now changed their tactics. I ask the House to observe this party manœuvre. Look at what they have been doing for the last month throughout the country, saying, "Our ease requires an investigation, and no half measures will answer. We know our case, we are prepared to come to the House of Commons and declare our case, and move a Vote of Censure." They come here, move their Vote of Censure, and now they have run away from it. You may deceive yourselves here, but you will not deceive the country. I want to ask what is the real crime we are said to have committed? The Vote of Censure was moved deliberately, and the Mover said that, not only in his opinion but on the evidence at his disposal, it was clear

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      that we had interfered with the course of justice for political and party reasons. That was what the Mover said. Why then does he want an investigation to prove it? Then he proceeded to say that he was satisfied that this was all brought about because of the pressure of what is called our "Back-benchers."
      I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and all his friends who were in the House some years ago to picture the same proceeding to-day as happened then. I was sitting there, and watching my right hon. Friend on his defence in this House. I pictured it this afternoon, and I said to myself, whatever he our party views, and our party titles, was there ever a statement made that impressed people more, at least people honestly desiring to be impressed, that here was an honest man trying to tell the truth? [An HON. MEMBER: "Rubbish!"] I am sorry for the individual who said "rubbish." There was a. man whose professional career was at stake, who had been maligned and abused for the last month, and he frankly comes to the. House of Commons, not only tells his own tale, but produces all the documents, and goes beyond that and says, "If there is anything else you want, ask for it and I will give it." That was the Attorney-General's statement. [An HON.MEMBER: "A lawyer!"] I see. That is your answer to the last speech. Then he was followed by the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister told everything that took place. I repeat it, because I am involved in it, and I am as jealous of my honour as any other Member of the House. I was present at the Cabinet, at the discussion, and I challenge contradiction of the statement I am now going to make. First, it is no secret that, so far as my views are concerned, the Communists would get no quarter from me. But I go beyond that, and say that, so far from political interference of any sort or kind being concerned, there was net a member of the Cabinet who attempted in any way to interfere with the Attorney-General in this case.
      I rather gather that the ground has been changed, because now the charge is that, so far as the Cabinet itself is concerned, so far as the Prime Minister is concerned,—and the last speaker made it perfectly
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      Clear—he said he would brook no interference from any Minister, and it was applauded on that bench. How many on the Front Opposition Bench and on the Front Liberal Bench dare repeat it? We are going to the country, and we may as well get some facts right now. I deliberately charge in the House any Cabinet Minister who has been a Minister during the last 10 years to dare contradict the fact that on political prosecutions of the "Times," the "Morning Post," the "Evening News" and the munition workers, not only was the Attorney-General consulted, but in some cases he not only consulted the Government but the Government stopped him going on. Have an investigation into it, to prove it. You wore talking about investigations. Have one to prove it. It is these people who have been going all over the country saying: "Here is this Labour Government actually interfering with the course of justice." They not only know it is humbug. But the real explanation is to be found, not in the legal arguments of Lord Birkenhead's letter this morning, but in the tail of his letter. After dealing with the legal arguments he added, "I hope the moral of this will not be lost and we foolish Liberals and Tories will not be voting against each other." Does no one on these benches know anything about it? How do my Friends on those, benches view the prospect of that kindly invitation, which was not without responsible backing?
      Captain Viscount CURZON: Why should not we?
      Mr. THOMAS: We are not complaining, but do not be such hypocrites as to pretend that it is for something else. That is the only complaint. I ask the late Attorney-General's attention to this, because he did not happen to be in the House. Certain Members will remember that when this question first reached a serious stage—it is not within the last few months but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) will remember it; he was Prime Minister—he was standing here defending himself on the famous Curragh incident when the late, Mr. Bonar Law got up, and made the astounding statement that in his judgment the officers in the Curragh were justified in following the dictates of their own conscience rather than obeying the law.
      Mr. PRINGLE: He never said that.
      Mr. THOMAS: The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) may be correct in many things, but I have refreshed my memory within the last few hours. Mr. Bonar Law not only defended the officers in the Curragh, but he said they were justified under the circumstances. Law and order were in my mind then. I pictured an industrial dispute, and the fact of private soldiers following the same advice. I jumped up and asked, "Does that apply to privates as well?" The OFFICIAL REPORT will show that he said "Yes." Then I asked, "What is going to happen in the future?" That was in 1914. I was quite sound on law and order then. In 1916, when the right hon. Gentleman was Prime Minister and Mr. McKenna was Home Secretary, a poor old engine driver, 62 years of age, on a frosty morning, when his signal was stuck, ran by it on his way to Carlisle and 14 people were killed. He was immediately arrested. He had an unblemished record for 40 years. The trial took place and he was sentenced. Every railway man felt that it was a cruel and monstrous sentence. They passed a resolution and said, "We will stop work at 12 o'clock to-morrow night unless he is released." [An HON. MEMBER: "What is the relevancy?"] I will tell the hon. Member the relevancy. I had to convey the desire to my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley, and to Mr. McKenna, but I said to my people: "Before I go and ask for his release, you have to withdraw that resolution, because no Government can capitulate-to force." These are the people who are now handing over law and order in this country to the rebels. [Interruption.] Since when have these people become the champions and guardians of law and order?
      We believe that this Motion, as has been proved by the Debate to-day, is a mean and contemptible party manœuvre. I should regret if I were driven into the hands of the Communists. You will pay a heavy price if you drive the constitutional trade union movement of this country into the hands of the rebels. It will not be snap party Divisions that you will gain. It will not be merely the emoluments of office that will be your reward. You will pay dearly and suffer
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      dearly for it. I ask you carefully to refrain before you allow yourselves merely to play the party game, as you are doing to-day. You ask us, why can we not accept a Vote of Censure? That is what it means. I will tell you why. Because, first of all, you said to us, "We are going to take the straightforward course, and turn you out." We said, "Right. Be honourable, and do that." You have now said, "No, we cannot trust the other fellows, and, therefore, we are not going to lose a chance."
      My hon. Friends below the Gangway on this side say, "Why not have a Committee of Inquiry?" I reply that the Prime Minister is engaged at this moment in delicate negotiations. I am engaged in negotiations in Iraq. I am not going to meet people and plead for this country, or defend this country, and allow it to be said to me, "You may be nominally representing the Government, but you have already not only had notice to quit, but you are suspect by the Members of your own House of Commons." We are suspect because the Attorney-General has told his case. His legal friends say, "It is a very good legal case but we do not believe you." The Prime Minister stated his case. You have said to him by your speeches, and you will show by your vote, "You may be a very decent fellow, but you are a stranger to the truth." You are not going to cover it up in fine phrases; that is what your vote will indicate.
      Therefore, for these reasons, we refuse to accept the Motion before the House. We are fully alive to the consequences. When it is carried, the necessary steps will be taken to accept it as the verdict of this house—but only the verdict of this House. It will then be necessary to ask other people's verdict, and it will be necessary, in doing that, to tell them the facts. We shall say to them that, although we are fewer than 200 and have held office for eight months, you have been unable to show an administrative blunder yet. We shall he able to say to them that abroad, at least, our credit is as high as when we took office; and, above all, we shall be able to tell them that you have arrived at the conclusion that, if we stopped here till next April, things would be much worse for you. My light hon. Friend

      693
      would be propounding proposals to which you would give lip service, but which you would hate in. your hearts. It would be a bad time then to move a Vote of Censure, and, in order to avert that, you have seized this opportunity. We await the verdict with absolute confidence. We shall be as happy as any other party. We congratulate you on your clever manœuvre, because you did not trust your friends below the Gangway. We congratulate them on having had an opportunity of judging what they think about you; and we congratulate ourselves on going into the Lobby in order to show that we refuse an inquiry to those who want it to escape a straight issue, and we equally refuse it to those who find it the most convenient way of escape.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: As only two hon. Members who are not Privy Councillors have so far addressed the House, I claim the right of a, Member to take part in this debate if you, Mr. Speaker, call upon me. I wish first to refer to the modern idea which has run through this Debate, and through the Press controversies of the last month, that a private Member of Parliament on one side or the other has not the right to approach Ministers and to represent opinion which he considers should be represented in the interests of his constituents. I believe that I am right in saying that a Member of Parliament has the right of access to the Sovereign. In practice that means that he has the right of access to His Majesty's Ministers. This matter has not been challenged until now, and if we are going to accept the position that it is wrong for Members of Parliament to approach Ministers to represent what they consider are the interests of their constituents we may as well do away with Parliament altogether. There has been another occasion within the last few troubled weeks when the same charges were made against the Government that they had listened to private Members
      I have been one of the private Members who have been mentioned in that connection I do not shirk the charge. As long as I am a private Member of this House I claim the right to approach the Minister, and if the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) had not approached the Government in this matter I would have done so. The Attorney-General made, I thought, an excellent case except in one respect. He asked at the end of his defence, "What am I accused of?" I will tell him. His error was the initiation of the prosecution at all. It should not have been started. It should not have been approved. Furthermore, I thought that he made that worse by his reference to this man John Ross Campbell as "this Communist." The Attorney-General was not challenged as 1 should have wished on this point from below the Gangway. The fact that a man holds Communist opinions does not make him en outcast. If I were the only Liberal in Parliament I would not allow that doctrine to go undisputed. That is the accusation that fairly lies against the Attorney-General, but it is not a sufficiently grave matter—
      Sir J. SIMON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question he now put," but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
      Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHX: That is not a sufficiently grave matter for which to inflict 600 elections on the country.
      Sir R. HORNEM rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
      Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to he left out stand part of the Question."
      The House divided: Ayes, 198; Noes, 359.

      Division No. 200.]

      AYES.

      [11.0 p.m.

      Ackroyd, T. R.

      Banks, Reginald Mitchell

      Buchanan, G.

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Banton, G.

      Buckle, J.

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Barnes, A.

      Cape, Thomas

      Alden, Percy

      Batey, Joseph

      Charleton, H. C.

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Clarke, A.

      Alstead, R.

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles w.

      Climie, R.

      Ammon, Charles George

      Broad, F. A.

      Cluse, W. S.

      Attlee, Major Clement R.

      Bromfield, William

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

      Ayles, W. H.

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Compton, Joseph

      Costello, L. W. J.

      Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

      Rose, Frank H.

      Cove, W. G.

      Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Slivertown)

      Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

      Crittall, V. G.

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Scurr, John

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Jones, T. I. Mardy(Pontypridd)

      Seely, H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern)

      Davies, G.M. Lloyd (Welsh Univ.)

      Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

      Sexton, James

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Kennedy, T.

      Sherwood, George Henry

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      Kenworthy, Lt.-Com, Hon. Joseph M.

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Dickson, T.

      Kirkwood, D.

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Dukes, C.

      Lansbury, George

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Duncan, C.

      Law, A.

      Smillie, Robert

      Dunnico, H.

      Lawrence, Susan(East Ham, North)

      Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe)

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Lawson, John James

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern)

      Leach, W.

      Smith, W.R. (Norwich)

      Egan, W. H

      Lee, F.

      Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

      Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

      Lindley, F. W.

      Spence, H.

      Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North)

      Lowth, T.

      Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

      Gavan-Duffy, Thomas

      Lunn, William

      Stamford, T. w.

      Gibbins, Joseph

      MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

      Stephen, Campbell

      Gillett, George M.

      McEntee, V. L.

      Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

      Gosling, Harry

      Mackinder, W.

      Stranger, Innes Harold

      Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

      Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

      Sullivan, J.

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Maden, H.

      Sutton, J.E.

      Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

      March, S.

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Darby)

      Greenall, T.

      Marley, James

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

      Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

      Thurtie, E.

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Maxton, James

      Tillett, Benjamin

      Groves, T.

      Middleton, G.

      Tinker, John Joseph

      Grundy, T. W.

      Mills. J. E.

      Toole, J.

      Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

      Montague, Frederick

      Tout, W. J.

      Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

      Morel, E. D.

      Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

      Hall, F. (York, W.R.,Normanton)

      Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

      Turner, Ben

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Turner-Samuels, M.

      Harbison, Thomas James S.

      Mosley, Oswald

      Varley, Frank B.

      Hardle, George D.

      Muir, John W.

      Vlant, S. P.

      Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

      Murray, Robert

      Wallhead, Richard C.

      Hastings, Sir Patrick

      Naylor, T.E.

      Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

      Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

      Nichol, Robert

      Warne, G. H.

      Hayday, Arthur

      Nixon, H.

      Watson, w. M. (Dunfermline)

      Hayes, John Henry

      O'Connor, Thomas P.

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda,

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

      Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South)

      Oliver, George Harold

      Westwood. Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      O'Neill, John Joseph

      Weir, L. M.

      Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)

      Paling, W.

      Westwood, J.

      Hillary, A. E.

      Palmer, E. T.

      Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

      Hirst, G. H.

      Perry, S. F.

      Whiteley, W.

      Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)

      Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

      Wignall, James.

      Hodges, Frank

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Williams, David(Swansea, E.)

      Hoffman, P. C.

      Potts, John S.

      Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kennington)

      Hogge, James Myles

      Purcell, A. A.

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Hudson, J. H.

      Raynes, W. R.

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Rendall, A.

      Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

      Isaacs, G. A.

      Richards, R.

      Windsor, Walter

      Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich)

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Wright, W.

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Ritson. J.

      Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

      Jewson, Dorothea

      Roberts. Rt. Hon. F. O. (W.Bromwich)

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

      Johnson, Sir L. (Warthamstow, E.)

      Romeril, H.G.

      Mr. Spoor and Mr. Parkinson.

      NOES.

      Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

      Beckett, Sir Gervase

      Buckingham. Sir H.

      Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

      Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Allen, R. Wilberforce (Leicester, S.)

      Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Bullock, Captain M.

      Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

      Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

      Burman, J B.

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

      Berry, Sir George

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Apsley, Lord

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Butler, Sir Geoffrey

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Aske, Sir Robert William

      Birkett, W. N.

      Caine, Gordon Hall

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Black, J. W.

      Cassels, J. D

      Astor, Maj. Hon. John J. (Kent,Dover)

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Cautley, Sir Henry S.

      Astor, Viscountess

      Blundell, F. N.

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Atholl, Duchess of

      Bonwick, A.

      Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

      Austin, Sir Herbert

      Bourne, Robert Croft

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn(Aston)

      Baird, Major Rt. Hon. Sir John L.

      Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

      Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

      Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

      Banner, Sir John S. Harmood.

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Chamberlain, Rt Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Barclay, R. Noton

      Briant, Frank

      Chapman, Sir S.

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Barnston, Major Sir Harry

      Briscoe, Captain Richard George

      Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

      Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

      Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

      Clayton, G. C

      Becker, Harry

      Brunner, Sir J.

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      696

      697

      Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

      Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

      Cohen, Major J, Brunel

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough)

      Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Hill-Wood, Major Sir Samuel

      Norton-Griffiths, Sir John

      Collins, Patrick (Walsall)

      Hindle, F.

      Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

      Comyns-Carr, A. S.

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. C.

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Conway, Sir W. Martin

      Hobhouse, A. L.

      Owen, Major G.

      Cope, Major William

      Hogbin, Henry Cairns

      Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

      Cory, Sir Clifford

      Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

      Pease, William Edwin

      Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

      Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

      Pennefather, Sir John

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Penny, Frederick George

      Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington,N.)

      Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Hopklnson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

      Hore-Bellsha, Major Leslie

      Perring, William George

      Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

      Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hllihead)

      Phillpson, Mabel

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland,Northrn)

      Pielou, D. p.

      Cunllffe, Joseph Herbert

      Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton)

      Pliditch, Sir Philip

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Pilkington, R. R.

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

      Darbishire, C. W.

      Huntingfield, Lord

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Davies, David (Montgomery)

      Illffe, Sir Edward M.

      Raffan, P. W.

      Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Raffety, F. w.

      Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil)

      Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

      Raine, W.

      Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

      James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

      damage, Captain Cecil Beresford

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor)

      Rankin, James S.

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Rathbone, Hugh H.

      Dean, Arthur Wellesley

      Johnstons, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

      Rawlinson- Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

      Deans, Richard Storry

      Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby)

      Rawson, Alfred Cooper

      Dickle, Captain J. P.

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

      Rees, Sir Beddoe

      Dixey, A. C.

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne)

      Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple)

      Dixon, Herbert

      Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Dodds, S. R.

      Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Remer, J. R.

      Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

      Kay, Sir R. Newbald

      Remnant, Sir James

      Duckworth, John

      Kedward, R. M.

      Rentoul. G. S.

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Keens. T.

      Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

      Dunn, J. Freeman

      Kindersley, Major G. M.

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Eden, Captain Anthony

      King, Capt. Henry Douglas

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Lamb, J. Q.

      Robertson, T. A.

      Ednam, Viscount

      Lane-Fox, George R.

      Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford)

      Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

      Laverack, F. J.

      Robinson, Sir T, (Lanes., Stretford)

      Elliot, Walter E.

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Robinson, W. E. (Burslem)

      Elveden, Viscount

      Lessing, E.

      Ropner, Major L.

      Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

      Livingstone, A. M.

      Roundell, Colonel R. F.

      England, Colonel A.

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Phillp

      Royle, C.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

      Rudkin, Lleut.-Colonel C. M. C.

      Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

      Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Falconer, J.

      Lord, Walter Greaves-

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Lorlmer, H. D.

      Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

      Ferguson, H.

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Savery, S. S.

      Finney, V. H.

      Lumley, L. R.

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Llverp'l, Exchange)

      FitzRoy, Captain Rt. Hon. Edward A.

      Lyle, Sir Leonard

      Scrymgeour, E.

      Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H.

      Lynn Sir R. J.

      Seely, Rt. Hn. Maj. Gen. J.E.B. (I. of W.)

      Foot, Isaac

      McCrae, Sir George

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Forestler-Walker, L.

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Franklin, L. B.

      MacDonald, R.

      Simms, Dr, John M. (Co. Down)

      Frece, Sir Walter de

      Macfadyen, E.

      Simon, E. D. (Manchester,Withington)

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      McLean, Major A.

      Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Macnaghten. Hon. Sir Malcolm

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Gates, Percy

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unlv.,Belfst)

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

      Smith-Carlngton, Neville W.

      George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

      Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-ln-Furness)

      George, Major B. L. (Pembroke)

      Makins, Brigadier-General E.

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

      Mansel, Sir Courtenay

      Spero, Dr. G. E,

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Stanley, Lord

      Glimour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

      Starmer, Sir Charles

      Gorman, William

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Steel, Samuel Strang

      Gould, James C. (Cardiff, Central)

      Meller, R. J.

      Stewart, Maj. R. S. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Greene, W. P. Crawford

      Meyler, Lleut.-Colonel H. M.

      Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

      Greenwood. William (Stockport)

      Millar, J. D.

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Sturrock, J. Leng

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Mitchell, R. M. (Perth & Kinross,Perth)

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Grigg, Lieut.-Col. Sir Edward W. M.

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Sunlight, J.

      Guest, Capt. Hn. F. E. (Gloucstr., Stroud)

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Sutcliffe, T.

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Mond, H.

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Harbord, Arthur

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

      Tattersall, J. L.

      Harland, A.

      Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

      Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Morris, R. H.

      Terrington, Lady

      Harney, E. A.

      Morrison. Bell. Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Harris, John (Hackney, North)

      Morse, W. E.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Harris, Percy A.

      Moulton, Major Fletcher

      Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)

      Hartington, Marquess of

      Murrell, Frank

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      Harvey, C. M. B (Aberd'n & Kincardne)

      Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

      Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro.W.)

      Harvey, T. E. (Dewtbury)

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Thomson,Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon,S.)

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      698

      699

      Thornton, Maxwell. R.

      Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H.

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Titchfield, Major the Marquees of

      White, H. G (Birkenhead, E.)

      Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Williams, A. (York, W. R., Sowerby)

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

      Turton, Edmund Russborough

      Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

      Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

      Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

      Williams, Maj. A. S. (Kent,Sevenoaks)

      Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G.

      Vivian, H.

      Willison, H.

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Waddington, R.

      Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

      Wragg, Herbert

      Ward, Lt.-Col.A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

      Wilson, Colonel M. J. (Richmond)

      Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

      Warrender, Sir Victor

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

      Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

      Winfrey, Sir Richard

      Webb, Lieut.-Col. Sir H. (Cardiff, E.)

      Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

      Wells, S. R.

      Wintringham, Margaret

      Mr. Vivian Phillipps and Mr.

      Weston, John Wakefield

      Wise, Sir Fredric

      Walter Rea

      Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.

      Question put, "That those words be there added."
      The House divided: Ayes, 364; Noes, 198.

      Division No. 201.]

      AYES.

      [11.15 p.m.

      Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Alnsworth, Captain Charles

      Chapman, Sir S.

      Gates, Percy

      Alexander, Brg.-Gen.Sir W. (Glas. C.)

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Allen, R. Wilberforce (Leicester, S.)

      Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

      George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

      Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

      Clarry, Reginald George

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Amery, Rt. Hen. Leopold C. M. S.

      Clayton, G. C.

      Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

      Apsley, Lord

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

      Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Aske, Sir Robert William

      Cohen, Major J. Brunel

      Gorman, William

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Gould, James C. (Cardiff, Central)

      Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent,Dover)

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Greene, W. P. Crawford

      Astor, Viscountess

      Collins, Patrick (Walsall)

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Atholl, Duchess of

      Comyns-Carr, A. S.

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Austin, Sir Herbert

      Conway, Sir W. Martin

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Baird, Major Rt. Hon. Sir John L.

      Cope, Major William

      Grigg, Lieut.-Col. Sir Edward W. M.

      Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

      Cory, Sir Clifford

      Guest, Capt. Hn.F.E. (Gloucstr.,Stroud)

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Costello, L. W. J.

      Hall, Lieut-Colonel Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

      Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Barclay, R. Noton

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish University)

      Harbord, Arthur

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

      Harland, A.

      Barnston, Major Sir Harry

      Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

      Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

      Harney, E. A.

      Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

      Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

      Harris, John (Hackney, North)

      Becker, Harry

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Hartington, Marquess of

      Beckett, Sir Gervase

      Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

      Harvey, C. M. B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne)

      Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)

      Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leigh)

      Darbishire, C. W.

      Hennessy, Major J. R G

      Berry, Sir George

      Davies, David (Montgomery)

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough)

      Birchall, Major J Dearman

      Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil)

      Hill-Wood. Major Sir Samuel

      Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

      Hindie, F.

      Birkett, W. N.

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Hoare, Lt-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Black, J. W.

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Hobhouse, A. L.

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Dean, Arthur Wellesley

      Hogbin, Henry Cairns

      Blundell, F. N.

      Deans, Richard Storry

      Hogg, Rt. Hon Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

      Blunwick, A.

      Dickie, Captain J. P.

      Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

      Bourne, Robert Croft

      Dixcy, A. C.

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Bowater, Sir T. Vanslttart

      Dixon, Herbert

      Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

      Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

      Dodds, S. R.

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

      Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

      Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Duckworth, John

      Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

      Briant, Frank

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Howard, Hn. D (Cumberland,Northrn.)

      Bridgman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Dunn, J. Freeman

      Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton)

      Briscoe, Captain Richard George

      Eden, Captain Anthony

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Briltain, Sir Harry

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

      Ednam, Viscount

      Huntingfield. Lord

      Brunner, Sir J.

      Edwards, John H. (Accrlngton)

      Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Elliot, Walter E.

      Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Elveden, Viscount

      Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

      Bullock, Captain M.

      Emlyn-jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

      James, Lieut-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

      Burman, J. B.

      England, Colonel A.

      Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor)

      Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M

      Johnson, Sir L. (Waltbamstow, E.)

      Butler, Sir Geoffrey

      Falconer, J.

      Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool,W.Derby)

      Calne, Gordon Hall

      Ferguson, H.

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      Cassels, J. D.

      Finney, V. H.

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne)

      Cautley, Sir Henry S.

      FitzRoy, Captain Rt. Hon. Edward A.

      Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H.

      Kay, Sir R. Newbald

      Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)

      Foot, Isaac

      Kedward, R. M.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      Keens, T.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Franklin, L. B.

      Kindersley, Major G. M.

      Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

      Frece, Sir Walter de

      King, Captain Henry Douglas

      Lamb, J. Q.

      Owen, Major G.

      Stewart, Maj. R. S.(Stockton-on-Tees)

      Lane-Fox, George R.

      Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

      Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

      Laverack, F. J.

      Pease, William Edwin

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Pennefather, Sir John

      Sturrock, J. Long

      Lessing, E.

      Penny, Frederick George

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Livingstone, A. M.

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Sunlight, J.

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Sutcliffe, T.

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Perring, William George

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

      Philipson, Mabel

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

      Pietou, D. P.

      Tattersall, J. L.

      Lord, Walter Greaves

      Pilditch, Sir Philip

      Terrell, Captain R (Oxford, Henley)

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Pilkington, R. R.

      Terrington, Lady

      Loverseed, J. F.

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Pringie, w. M. R.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Lumley, L. R.

      Raffan, P. W.

      Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)

      Lyle, Sir Leonard

      Raffety, F. W.

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdean, South)

      Lynn, Sir R. J.

      Raine, W

      Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

      McCrae, Sir George

      Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford

      Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Rankin, James S.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      MacDonald, R.

      Rathbone, Hugh R.

      Thornton, Maxwell, R.

      Macladyen, E.

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk, Peel

      Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

      McLean, Major A.

      Rawson, Alfred Cooper

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

      Rees, Sir Beddoe

      Turton, Edmund Russborough

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple)

      Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

      McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Vivian, H.

      Micpharson, Rt. Hon. James I.

      Remer, J. R.

      Waddington, R,

      Makins, Brigadier-General E.

      Remnant, Sir James

      Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth)

      Mansel, Sir Courtenay

      Rentoul, G. S.

      Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

      Macks, Sir George Croydon

      Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

      Warrender, Sir Victor

      Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

      Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      Webb, Lieut.-Col. Sir H. (Cardiff, E.)

      Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

      Robertson, T. A.

      Wells, S. R.

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford)

      Weston, John Wakefield

      Meller, R. J.

      Robinson, Sir T. (Lane., Stretford)

      Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H.

      Meyler, Lieut.-Colonel H. M.

      Robinson, W. E. (Burslem)

      Williams, A. (York, W.R., Sowerby)

      Millar, J. D.

      Ropner, Major L.

      Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Roundell, Colonel R. F.

      Williams, Maj. A. S.(Kent, Sovenoaks)

      Mitchell R. M.(Perth & Kinross, Perth)

      Royle, C.

      Willison, H.

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Wilson, Colonel M. J. (Richmond)

      Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

      Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Mond, H

      Savery, S. S.

      Winfrey, Sir Richard

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

      Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

      Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

      Seely, H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern)

      Wise, Sir Fredric

      Morris, R. H.

      Seely, Rt.Hn.Maj.-Gen. J.E.B.(I. of W.)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.

      Morse, W. E.

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

      Moulton, Major Fletcher

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

      Murrell, Frank

      Simon, E. D.(Manchester, Withington)

      Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G.

      Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

      Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Wragg, Herbert

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)

      Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

      Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

      Smith-Carington, Neville W.

      Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-In-Furness)

      Nield, Rt. Hon Sir Herbert

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

      Norton-Griffiths, Sir John

      Stanley, Lord

      Mr. Vivian Phillips and Mr. Walter Rea.

      Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

      Starmer, Sir Charles

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Steel, Samuel Strang

      NOES.

      Ackroyd, T. R.

      Clarke, A.

      Gosling, Harry

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Climie, R.

      Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Cluse, W. S.

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

      Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Alstead, R.

      Compton, Joseph

      Greenall, T.

      Ammon, Charles George

      Cove, W. G.

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

      Attlee, Major Clement R.

      Crittall, V. G.

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Ayles, W. H.

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Groves, T.

      Banks, Reginald Mitchell

      Davies, G. M. Lloyd (Welsh Univ.)

      Grundy, T. W.

      Banton, G.

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillary)

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

      Barnes, A.

      Dickson, T.

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Batey, Joseph

      Dukes, C.

      Harbison, Thomas James S.

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Duncan, C.

      Hardie, George D.

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W,

      Dunnico, H.

      Harris, Percy A.

      Broad, F. A.

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

      Bromfield, William

      Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern)

      Hastings, Sir Patrick

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Egan, W. H.

      Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

      Buchanan, G.

      Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

      Hayday, Arthur

      Buckle, J.

      Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North)

      Hayes, John Henry

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

      Gavan-Duffy, Thomas

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

      Cape, Thomas

      Gibbins, Joseph

      Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South)

      Charleton, H. C.

      Gillett, George M.

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      702

      703

      Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)

      Morel, E. D.

      Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

      Hillary, A. E.

      Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

      Spero, Dr. G. E.

      Hirst, G. H.

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Stamford, T. W.

      Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)

      Mosley, Oswald

      Stephen, Campbell

      Hodges, Frank

      Muir, John W.

      Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

      Hoffman, P. C.

      Murray, Robert

      Sullivan, J

      Hogge, James Myles

      Naylor, T. E.

      Sutton, J. E.

      Hudson, J. H.

      Nichol, Robert

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Nixon, H.

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Isaacs, G. A.

      O'Connor, Thomas P.

      Thurtle, E.

      Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich)

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Tillett, Benjamin

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Oliver, George Harold

      Tinker, John Joseph

      Jewson, Dorothea

      O'Neill, John Joseph

      Toole, J.

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Paling, W.

      Tout, W. J

      Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

      Palmer, E. T.

      Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

      Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Turner, Ben

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Perry, S. F.

      Turner-Samuels, M.

      Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

      Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

      Varley, Frank B.

      Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Viant, S. P.

      Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Potts, John S.

      Wallhead, Richard C.

      Kennedy, T.

      Purcell, A. A.

      Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

      Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

      Raynes, W. R.

      Warne, G. H.

      Kirkwood, D.

      Rendall, A.

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Lansbury, George

      Richards, R.

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Law, A.

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

      Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)

      Ritson, J.

      Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Joslah C

      Lawson, John James

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

      Weir, L. M.

      Leach, W.

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Westwood, J.

      Lee, F.

      Romeril, H. G.

      Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

      Lindley, F. W.

      Rose, Frank H.

      Whiteley, W.

      Lowth, T.

      Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

      Wignall, James

      Lunn, William

      Scrymgeour, E.

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

      Scurr, John

      Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kennington)

      McEntee, V. L.

      Sexton, James

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Mackinder, W.

      Sherwood, George Henry

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

      Maden, H.

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Windsor, Walter

      March, S.

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Wintringham, Margaret

      Marley, James

      Smillie, Robert

      Wright, W.

      Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

      Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

      Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

      Maxton, James

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Middleton, G.

      Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

      Mills, J. E.

      Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

      Mr. Spoor and Mr. Frederick Hall.

      Montague, Frederick

      Spence, R.

      Question put, and agreed to.

      Ordered,
      "That a Select Committee be appointed to investigate and report upon the circumstances leading up to the withdrawal of the proceedings recently instituted by the Director of Public Prosecutions against Mr. Campbell."
      The PRIME MINISTER: In view of what has happened, I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
      Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.