§ The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Gosling)I beg to move, in page 9, line 5, after the word "registered," to insert the words
or, in the case of a licence charged with duty under the said paragraph (a), to the council of the county or county borough by which the licence was granted.This is a drafting Amendment, rendered necessary by reason of the fact that 1053 a general trade licence is not granted in respect of a particular registered vehicle.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. GOSLINGI beg to move, in page 9, lines 5 and 6, to leave out the words "if the vehicle is," and to insert instead thereof the words "in the case of a licence in respect of.'
This is a necessary drafting Amendment, for the same reason that applied to the last Amendment.
Lieut.-Colonel L. WARDMay we have a few more words of explanation regarding this particular Amendment? It seems rather difficult to understand what it means. Does this paragraph taken as a whole mean that a holder of a licence can surrender it at any time he likes and for a period of completed months, and at the end of that time recover the licence, receiving as rebate so much per month? That, I think, is what the House understood was to be the, meaning of this Clause when the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced the Bill.
§ Mr. GOSLINGThe previous reason that I gave, and the only one I have, is that it is rendered necessary by reason of the fact that a general trade licence is not granted in respect of a particular registered vehicle.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. GOSLINGI beg to move, in page 9, lines 8 and 9, to leave out the words "if the vehicle is a vehicle of any other class," and to insert instead thereof the words "in the case of any other licence."
This is an Amendment again for the same reason.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURYI beg to move, in page 9, line 21, at end to insert a new Sub-section—
(2) So much of paragraph (6) of the Second Schedule to The Finance Act, 1920, as relates to proof of the payment of duty and to the repayment of twenty-five per cent. thereof is hereby repealed, and it is hereby enacted that if any person proves to the satisfaction of the authority charged with levying the duty payable in respect of any vehicle chargeable under the said paragraph, as amended by any subsequent enactment, that the engine of the vehicle was constructed eight years before the first day of January of the year in which duty is payable he shall be entitled to an abatement 1054 of twenty-five per cent. of the duty payable under the said Section.The effect of this Amendment is to provide for a 25 per cent. reduction of the tax to cars over eight years old. In 1920 there came into force the present taxation of motor vehicles. A car that was eight years old was then considered worthy of an exemption of 25 per cent. from the licence payable on a new car. I would ask the hon. Member who represents the Ministry of Transport whether he cannot carry that eight years forward so that whenever a car is eight years old it will be automatically liable to a reduction of 25 per cent. That is to say, that it will pay 15s. per horse power instead of the existing £1 per horse power. A car as it gets old is no longer as good or efficient as it was when new, and it also prevents the free sale to-day of second-hand cars. You have in many cases a high tax on those second-hand cars. In many cases to-day you will scarcely be able to sell a second-hand car because it is inefficient, it has a very high yearly tax on it, and there are no buyers. There are no buyers because of the high tax. That is the whole reason. Therefore I would ask the Minister of Transport or the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether they could not carry out the same exemption throughout for cars that are eight years old. In 1921, a year after the present law authorising the present taxation of motor vehicles came into force, people imagined that it applied to cars eight years old. They found that they were mistaken, and that it applied only to cars manufactured before 1913. To-day there are fewer cars on the road that were made before 1913. I suggest that the Minister should look into the question. It is a grievance. Old cars are still serviceable. There is this high tax on them. They are not as efficient as when they were new, and I think he should give some benefit by reduction in these taxes to these older cars. Also another point. Supposing there is reduced taxation, the depreciation of a new car will not be so great as it is to-day because it is impossible to-day to sell an old car over eight years old because of the high tax on it, whereas if the taxes are lower there will be a freer market for these cars. I ask the hon. Gentleman to give this small concession to motorists by reducing the tax per horse power from £1 to 15s. on small cars, private cars 1055 and commercial cars that are over eight years old and still on the road.
§ Mr. J. HARRISThis is a very small concession for which we are asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I only want, in a few words, to support the hon. Gentleman opposite. If there are any reasons for adhering to this present arrangement I hope the hon. Gentleman will tell us. But I can think of no reasons which apply to-day which did not apply in 1920, when these concessions were made. If it were thought wise in 1920 to give this concession of 25 per cent. on cars built prior to the War, surely the same condition should obtain to-day. I want rather to put this plea on the ground of advantage to the Exchequer. I venture to think it is to the advantage of the Exchequer to make this concession. A great many people are attempting to commence driving cars because of the great advantage they get. The agent comes along and says, "You can begin. It will not cost you very much." The first thing the purchaser says is, "What on earth is the tax on the car?" Says the agent, "You begin on a second-hand car, an old car, and you will have the advantage of a low tax." The motoring community is tempted, so to speak, into the parlour of learning to drive a car because of the great advantage they will get on the second-hand car, and they will lead to a very much larger motoring community, and in turn to greater revenue to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I appeal to him, in the interests of the motoring community and particularly of beginners, to see if he cannot make this form of concession to us.
§ Mr. GOSLINGThe Amendment is evidently based on a misconception. The concession, as appears in the Report of the Departmental Committee on the Taxation and Regulation of Road Vehicles, was not given because an engine eight years old might be expected, simply because it was eight years old, to be worn out or inefficient. 1st January, 1913, was purposely selected because it Was considered that at or about the beginning of 1913 there was a trend of change of design whereby, in order to reduce the tax payable, the effective horse power of an engine was increased by lengthening the stroke and reducing the bore, the effect of which was to reduce the Treasury rating from which 1056 duty was assessed. There has been no general change of design since that time, and there is, therefore, no logical reason for making the Second Schedule of the Finance Act, 1920, as proposed.
§ Commander BELLAIRSWhat Departmental Committee, in what year?
§ Mr. GOSLINGThe Departmental Committee I speak of is the Committee of 1920. The Departmental Committee recommended this rebate for pre-1913 engines and stated that
This concession is considered expedient in order not to hamper the continued use of cars of obsolete types at a time when the supply of new cars is not equal to the demand.This state of things no longer exists. From the administrative point of view there would also be objections to the Amendment on the ground that the investigation and certification of pre-1913 engines would involve a considerable amount of work on the part of the local authorities, which is administratively undesirable. So long as the rebate is based on a distinctive change in design affecting the calculation of horse power it is logical to confine it to vehicles the rate of duty on which is based on horse power. When, however, as will be the case, the rebate is based on the theory that a vehicle a certain number of years old is considerably less efficient there will be considerable difficulty logically in refusing to extend the rebate to all classes of vehicles. This would largely increase the administrative difficulties and would have a substantial effect on revenue. Under the circumstances I cannot accept the Amendment.
§ Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZONI regret that the Government have not agreed to accept this Amendment. The Minister has advanced the theory that at one particular date the change in motor cars was very pronounced. From 1913 to 1916, which is the date to which the eight years now go back, very few motor cars were made in this country, as most of the manufacturing resources of the country were not being devoted to motor-car manufacture but to other work for war purposes. The number of cars introduced between 1913 and 1916 was inconsiderable, and I think that the administrative difficulties have been very much exaggerated by the Minister. As long as you make your taxation on horse-power basis and 1057 nothing else it is inconceivable to think that the efficiency of engines will not increase from year to year. Consequently it seems to me that the eight-year basis would be a quite reasonable and satisfactory basis to take when you compare your engines and modern engines. You get a rebate at present on 1913 cars of 33 per cent., and it is not likely that in eight years the modern motor manufacturer will improve the efficiency on the engine by 33 per cent. In future years, when the eight-years' period brings us up to 1922 there will be little difficulty in view of the fact that between 1913 and 1916 very few motor cars were made in this country. Therefore the administrative difficulty will be very small, and I think the Minister might well accept the Amendment which I hope will be pressed.
§ Captain Viscount CURZONI regret I did not hear the whole of the Minister's reply on this Amendment, because the case in connection with the eight-year old motor car is one I know very well. But I judge from what I heard of the statement that the whole tenor of the reply was the greatest condemnation possible of the existing system of taxation. If you have got a rigid form of taxation which permits of no elasticity whatever, does the Minister intend to perpetuate that system and make no rebate other than that made in the case of care manufactured before 1913? Is he going to maintain his rigid system of taxation ad infinitum? If he does not mean that, what does he mean? I say the motor owner who possesses a car with an engine above a certain age has a perfectly just case to put before the Minister, and it is no use for that hon. Gentleman to meet it with a blank negative. Practically every Member of this House is, I assume, a motorist to-day, whatever party he may belong to, and he must realise that the case submitted to the Minister to-night is a reasonable one. We say that some allowance should be made and incorporated in the taxation of this country for engines which are getting old and out of date.
Everybody knows perfectly well that cars of a certain age have depreciated enormously in value. Everybody knows that the insurance companies compute the depreciation of a motor-car at about 33 per cent. per annum. If that is so in the case of the insurance companies, why should not the Government take some of 1058 these facts into their consideration? They do not do it at present. They are raising an enormous sum by way of taxation from the motor-using community, and when I speak of the motor-using community, I not only refer to the class of motorists to which I may belong, but I speak for people whose case I know Well, and I want to submit that the more you can encourage motor using in this country, the better it will be for the country. It will not only benefit the class of men who own the expensive Rolls Royce cars, but you will benefit the poorer sections of the community. You are going to take money from the large centres of population, where presumably the majority of motorists are concentrated, and you are going to encourage people who use motors to go out into the countryside, and make more use of this means of communication than they have hitherto done. The more you do that, the more that community will spread its money afield, and I hope that those who so ably represent agricultural constituencies in this House, will to-night combine to support us, because the more motorists use agricultural roads, the more backing will there be to those who represent agricultural constituencies when they come to this House, and say, "We do not get half enough from the Minister and our agricultural roads."
In all sincerity, I put this to the Minister. Do not look upon this question from the point of view, so to speak, of reducing the number of motors on the roads, because you will do that in effect if you keep your taxation at the present limit. The whole motor-using community, whether commercial or pleasure, are all combined on one thing, and that is they are not satisfied that the existing taxation, as the Minister himself knows well—I think he has got in his Office the Report of this wonderful Committee which has sat for rather more than three years, and the Conservative Government, with himself, will take the blame for the monstrous delay—he knows full well that that Committee has, in effect, really turned down the existing system of taxation. They admit it is inequitable.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe Noble Lord is travelling very wide from this Amendment. It only affects cars of eight years of age.
§ Viscount CURZONI would submit that this does hear a certain relation, 1059 because cars of eight years of age are taxed as if they have only just come out of the works. I would submit that the persent system of taxation is wholly inequitable, because of that very fact. If the hon. Gentleman is going to stick to the existing system of taxation, which is disliked by the whole motor-using fraternity, and which everybody agrees is quite inequitable, there should be a graduated tax on the present basis, and the best system of graduation is to make some sort of allowance for the unfortunate individual—because he is unfortunate, in that his vehicle is practically unsaleable—who is saddled with a motor eight years old. Cannot some concession be made? You have told those who use motor vehicles that you cannot give a fuel tax—and I agree with the Minister it is almost impracticable—but if you cannot give a fuel tax, cannot you make some concession to those who, even the agricultural fraternity, and anyone who knows anything at all about the upkeep of roads will agree, bear a very large portion of the cost?
It is not a great concession that is being asked, and I submit that the more you do it, the more you will encourage the use of cars, and the more you encourage the use of cars, the more you will get. I ask the hon. Gentleman not hastily to turn down the proposition put to him to-night. It is a business proposition which will encourage the use of motors, and, by encouraging the use of motors, more revenue will be got. I submit to my hon. Friends who represent agricultural constituencies that the more motorists use their roads the more backing they will get. Therefore, I hope the Committee will support this Amendment, and I hope my hon. Friends whose names are behind it will press it to a Division. I would ask the Minister not lightly to turn down the case put before him tonight.
§ Sir CHARLES BARRIEWith the Noble Lord, I am in entire agreement as to promoting the motor industry, but I hope the Minister on this occasion will resist the Amendment. As I understand it, the taxes raised from the taxation of motor vehicles go to keep up the roads in the country, and I do not see any reason why motor cars, even although they be eight years old, should get an 1060 abatement of 25 per cent. The chances are that a vehicle eight years old is badly tyred and is heavy, and probably knocks up the roads very much more that a new vehicle would, and I do not see any reason whatever why the Minister should give an abatement of 25 per cent on a vehicle simply because it happens to be eight years old. If some hon. Members opposite will bring forward an Amendment to reduce taxation on all motor cars by 25 per cent. or more, it will have my hearty support, because I am in entire agreement with the Noble Lord on this point, that the taxation of motor cars should take a different form. But why, because a vehicle happens to be a few years old and getting out of date, it should have a preference of 25 per cent. in duty, is entirely beyond me. As a matter of fact, the vehicle ought probably to be off the road altogether and so provide employment, perhaps amongst the Noble Lord's constituents, in building a new car.
Lieut.-Colonel JOHN WARDI want to support the Amendment, to some extent, for the very reason my hon. Friend opposite has opposed it. I think the main reason why this Amendment has been brought forward by at least one or two of the hon. Members whose names are attached to it is this. The regular scorcher on the road, the wealthy man, the millionaire motor owner, will not have a car more than about a year old, and as you go down in the scale there is the man who has to keep his car three or four years, and finally the very poorest man, who wants, and ought to have, as much opportunity of recreation, exercise and seeing the country, which is almost barred to men in that particular class, and there you count to the five, six, or seven year old car. That is the car owned by the poorest motorist, and when you get to eight years you may take it for granted that it is a car that the Noble Lord or my hon. Friend opposite would not look at. My hon. Friends, among some others, do not want that type of car given a chance to keep on the road. It is rather in the way of the scorcher The owner of the old car has got to jog along with his family and his two or three, or it may be five or six, kiddies, in a quiet sort of way, and he is an absolute obstructionist to the scorcher which the Noble Lord and his friends represent. I say that, so far as I am concerned, if this Amendment goes 1061 to a Division, merely to give to the poorer man that has got, or acquired, an old car a chance of using it on the road, and enjoying life as much as the other fellows, I shall certainly be found in the Division Lobby.
§ Captain BRASSThe original concession, so far as this duty is concerned, 25 per cent. rebate, was made in the Finance Act of 1910. It was made not because the car was a certain age but because there was an alteration made in the design of the engine. Before the Finance Act of 1910 the Royal Automobile Club formula for calculating the Horse-Power did not exist. When the latter came into operation, instead of the cubic capacity rating, the Horse-Power Tax made the motor manufaturers of this country start designing and making engines with a very small bore and a very long stroke. That was due to the Finance Act of 1910. That in itself, I contend, is a bad thing for the export trade of this country, because if you have these sort of regulations that result in forcing manufacturers to make a type of engine which is not required on the Continent or elsewhere, it is a handicap to our export trade, and a very bad one.
I contend that although this remission of 25 per cent. was due to the alteration in the design of the engine, the age of the engine has necessarily got to come into the matter. I do not agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Banff (Sir C. Barrie) that an old car is badly tyred. I agree that a car may be tyred, but I do not agree that old cars should have any worse kind of tyres than the new cars. But I do say this—I do not know whether my hon. and gallant Friend will or will not agree with me—that it is the same with individuals as with cars, as one gets older one gets less efficient. Why is a motor car taxed on its horse-power. For this reason, I understand, that the higher horse-powered cars are more damaging to the roads than the lower. As a car becomes older it becomes less efficient and in consequence has less horse-power than before. The engine is getting older. If you are going to be fair and to tax cars on the horse-power developed on the road, I do think that the Minister ought very carefully to consider this question, because there is 1062 no doubt about it as the engine does get older it becomes less efficient; consequently it does less damage to the roads, and consequently it should pay lees tax than a new car of the same horse-power.
10.0 P.M.
A car that was made in 1912, at the present time, say, gets this rebate at the rate of 25 per cent. In 1950, if we are all here, no car except a car bought in 1912 will be able to claim the rebate of 25 per cent. You will have to go back to 1912 and say that only cars made before 1912 are to be allowed the rebate. I think that is all wrong. It is a wrong principle altogether. I think that when cars get older and become less efficient, and produce less horse-power, they should be able to get this rebate of 25 per cent., and so encourage the people who would otherwise do so not to buy foreign cars, but to buy those old cars which are in the market at the present time.
§ Commander BELLAIRSThis is a very small concession for which my hon. Friend asks. The Minister of Transport really cannot be congratulated on the arguments that he used against it. He fortified himself by reference to the Departmental Committee of 1920. But the report of that Committee was so inefficient that we had to set up another Committee almost at once to consider the question of motor taxation. This Committee has been sitting for something like three years, and we have only just got its report. Most conveniently, so that motorists could not be dealt with in the Budget. The Minister of Transport said it would probably cause some confusion in the accounts of the various county councils. I cannot see that at all. All you have to do is to put in the date and other information as to the manufacture of the car, and there need be no trouble in the matter whatever. I do plead with him that, seeing the opinion of the House is clearly against him, that if he speaks again he should make this very small concession, because it does not affect the Budget at all. The cost of these taxes comes out of the Road Fund, and the money is earmarked for the purpose. Therefore I ask him to make this concession, or otherwise we must go to a Division.
§ Sir G. COLLINSBefore we go to a Division I should like to put one or two questions to the Minister of Transport. I understand that if this Amendment be 1063 carried it would mean a small loss, but a loss growing over a number of years. There might consequently be a very serious loss, and one growing in volume to a considerable sum. Will the Minister also tell us what will be the extra cost to his Department of examining these cars? I think, perhaps, the Committee might have information on those two points before we come to a decision in the matter. There is one other question. Reference has been made to the Report referring to Motor Taxation being to-day in the hands of the Minister. If that be so, and the Committee report some new basis, it may be that the Minister could hold out hopes that during the next six or 12 months, on this Report, which he, I understand, had in his possession, he could submit new proposals to the Committee on this point, to deal, not only with this very narrow point which the Committee are discussing, but with the larger question of motor taxation.
§ Lieut.-Colonel POWNALLThe somewhat ancient car I run myself happens to be of the 1912 vintage, and therefore I shall get this 25 per cent. When I heard the hon. Member for Banff (Sir C. Barrie) speak disparagingly of these old cars I remember my own case, and they are not so bad after all. When I went into this question three months ago I found there were a good many instances where the taxation on some of these light cars cost almost as much as the car, and that penalises your small man who can only afford a small sum to buy a car, because it often means an upkeep of £14 or £15 per annum when the capital outlay is only about £25 or £30. Therefore I suggest it is very important that you should make your motor car running costs as low as possible in order to let people get out into the country during the week end. I understand that the Financial Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have relatively a very small amount in hand to play with, but may I point out that this concession will come out of the Road Fund, which is far larger than it was ever expected it would be, and it has raised a good many millions more than was expected. I would also like to point out that the cost of road making is going down, and therefore we could very well make a concession of this sort which would do a great deal to help the small 1064 men who cannot afford a car with such a heavy upkeep as is necessary at the present time.
§ Mr. MURROUGH WILSONI hope the Minister of Transport will resist this Amendment to his utmost ability. This House has passed a Resolution expressing agreement with the Motion brought forward to the effect that already the Road Fund is not sufficient to supply all that is required for the maintenance of country roads. We are being asked to reduce the amount paid into the Road Fund, and the consequence will be to add to the amount which has to be borne by the ratepayers of rural districts, and I do not think that is a reasonable request to make. I for one feel that rural ratepayers at present pay far too much, and when hon. Members come forward with the argument that if we have more cars running on the roads we shall get more revenue, I would reply that the number of cars running on the roads at the present time is causing a deficit of revenue in the country districts, and if the number of cars is increased that deficit will be all the greater.
§ Viscount CURZONWill the hon. and gallant Gentleman draw some distinction between the cars and say whether the damage to rural roads is caused by heavy or light vehicles?
§ Mr. WILSONThe damage is caused by large and small cars, and that does not affect the argument I am using against the point that the more cars you have the larger will be the revenue. My argument is that the more cars you have on the roads the more damage will be done, and the more the rural ratepayers will have to pay. Therefore, I hope the Minister of Transport will oppose this Amendment.
§ Lieut.-Colonel Sir JOSEPH NALLI was surprised to hear the hon. and gallant Member for Clitheroe (Captain Brass) using the argument about horse-power. As a matter of fact, the older the machines the more ramshackle they become, and the more damage they do, and these old machines are a nuisance on the road. If this principle is admitted, it is placing a premium on inefficient machines, and simply encouraging the use of vehicles which are not safe and constitute a public danger. It is simply encouraging people to buy these secondhand machines, which damage the roads.
§ Mr. ACLANDThis Debate has some interest for me, because I happen to own a car to which this Amendment would apply. I very much agree with the argument that really for the interests of the rural districts it would be ten thousand pities to do anything which would take a single £10 note from the sum available to assist rural roads. I shall support the opposition to this Amendment, and I hope we shall have as much money as possible from the Road Fund for our rural roads, the expenses of which are continually increasing and not decreasing.
§ Captain Viscount EDNAMI want to say a word on behalf of the small business man who sits in his office all through the week and has only one day a week when he can get out for a short country run, and he is generally a man who abhors a motor bicycle. It seems to me very hard that that man should be penalised because the agricultural ratepayers will not help him, for the reason that they are afraid of having to pay a heavier rate for their roads. I suggest that if this concession were made it would result in a larger number of these old cars being used, and they are only used about one day a week. This would result in a larger number of taxes being paid on those old cars, and in the end the Road Fund would gain by it. Like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Acland), I also am the owner of a 10-year old car, and my car is an honest car, that is to say, when it declared its horsepower 12 years ago it declared its true horse-power. It cannot develop that horsepower now, but at that time it declared its true horse-power, and was not like many cars I see standing outside now in Star Court, which declare a horse-power of, say, 14. I know of one in particular, which I am perfectly certain is a 40-horse-power car. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"] I do not mind
§ naming it. It is a Bentley. I have nothing to say against the Bentley car. I believe it was specially designed—whether by means of a small bore or long stroke I do not know—to cheat this form of taxation. I do maintain that my old car and those other old cars belonging to numbers of my constituents, which are used only once a week, should have this concession. There is one more suggestion that I should like to put to the Minister. If he thinks that this is too great a concession for which to ask on behalf of an eight-year old car, would he consider granting it on an even older car, say, 10 years old? I do think that these small business men, who, as I have said, want to use their cars once a week to get a breath of country air, should have a chance of owning an old car which they can afford, and which in the ordinary course they would not be able to afford owing to the enormous duty.
§ Lieut.-Colonel RUDKINI rise to support the Amendment, in the interest of a very large number of individuals who cannot afford a high-power car. It has been suggested that an old badly-tyred car wears out the road more than a newer car which is heavier; but it must be known to every motorist here that it is not weight and bad tyres that wear out the roads—it is speed. A car running at a high speed will wear out more road in half a day than an old badly-tyred car, even though it be heavier, will in a week. Further, on the question of the improvement in trade, a very large number of cars which are eight years old now would be bought by a large section of the community if the price were reduced a little. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will support the Amendment.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 144; Noes, 275.
1069| Division No. 122.] | AYES | [10.20 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Clarry, Reginald George |
| Ainsworth, Captain Charles | Brass, Captain W. | Clayton, G. C. |
| Alexander, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. (Glas. C.) | Buckingham, Sir H. | Cobb, Sir Cyril |
| Apsley, Lord | Bullock, Captain M. | Cockerill, Brigadier General G. K. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips |
| Austin, Sir Herbert | Butt, Sir Alfred | Conway, Sir W. Martin |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Caine, Gordon Hall | Cope, Major William |
| Barnett, Major Richard W. | Cassels, J. D. | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert |
| Bourne, Robert Croft | Chilcott, Sir Warden | Curzon, Captain Viscount |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) | Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland, Northrn.) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Hughes, Collingwood | Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Huntingfield, Lord | Ropner, Major L. |
| Deans, R. Storry. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Univ.) |
| Dickie, Captain J. P. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Dixon, Herbert | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Jephcott, A. R. | Savery, S. S. |
| Ednam, Viscount | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Elveden, Viscount | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| England, Colonel A. | Lane-Fox, George R. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. |
| Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. | Lord, Walter Greaves- | Stanley, Lord |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Lumley, L. R. | Steel, Samuel Strang |
| Gates, Percy | Lyle, Sir Leonard | Stewart, Maj. R. S.(Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | MacDonald, R. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Sutcliffe, T. |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William |
| Gretton, Colonel John | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.) |
| Gwynne, Rupert S. | Moles, Thomas | Waddington, R. |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent) |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Moulton, Major Fletcher | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Harbord, Arthur | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Wells, S. R. |
| Harvey, C. M. B.(Aberd'n & Kincardne) | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh | Weston, John Wakefield |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Pennefather, Sir John | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Penny, Frederick George | Wise, Sir Frederic |
| Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Perring, William George | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) |
| Hogbin, Henry Cairns | Philipson, Mabel | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Pielou, D. P. | |
| Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hood, Sir Joseph | Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel | Lieut.-Colonel Howard-Bury and Mr. John Harris. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke | Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. William | Collins, Patrick (Walsall) | Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Costello, L. W. J. | Hastings, Somerville (Reading) |
| Alden, Percy | Cove, W. G. | Haycock. A. W. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Hemmerde, E. G. |
| Alstead, R. | Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Henderson. Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Crittall, V. G. | Henderson, A (Cardiff, South) |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Darbyshire, C. W. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) |
| Attlee, Major Clement R. | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld) |
| Ayles, W. H. | Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. |
| Baird, Major Rt. Hon. Sir John L. | Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough) |
| Baker, Walter | Dickson, T. | Hirst, G. H. |
| Banton, G. | Dukes, C. | Hobhouse, A. L. |
| Barclay. R. Noton | Duncan, C. | Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Dunnico, H. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Barnes, A. | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) | Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity) | Hudson, J. H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern) | Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich) |
| Birkett, W. N. | Egan, W. H. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) |
| Black, J. W. | Falconer, J. | Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Finney, V. H. | Jewson, Dorothea |
| Bondfleid, Margaret | Forestler-Walker, L. | John, William (Rhondda, West) |
| Bonwick, A. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby) |
| Bramsdon, Sir Thomas | Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Gavan-Duffy, Thomas | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) |
| Briscoe, Captain Richard George | Gibbins, Joseph | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) |
| Broad, F. A. | Gillett, George M. | Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.) |
| Bromfield, William | Gorman, William | Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) |
| Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) | Gosling, Harry | Kay, Sir R. Newbald |
| Brunner, Sir J. | Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) | Keens, T. |
| Buchanan, G. | Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) | Kennedy, T. |
| Buckle, J. | Greenall, T. | Kenyon, Barnet |
| Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Kirkwood, D. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Groves, T. | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Grundy, T. W. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Lansbury, George |
| Chapple, Dr. William A. | Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Laverack, F. J. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Law, A. |
| Climie, R. | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Hardle, George D. | Lawson, John James |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R | Harris, Percy A. | Leach, W. |
| Lee, F. | Pease, William Edwin | Sturrock, J. Leng |
| Lesing, E. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Lorimer, H. D. | Perry, S. F. | Sullivan, J. |
| Loverseed, J. F. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Lowth, T | Phillipps, Vivian | Terrington, Lady |
| Lunn, William | Potts, John S. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| McCrae, Sir George | Pringle, W. M. R. | Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay) |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Purcell, A. A. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Raffan, P. W. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| McEntee, V. L. | Raffety, F. W. | Thornton, Maxwell R. |
| Macfadyen, E. | Rathbone, Hugh R. | Thurtle, E. |
| Mackinder, W. | Raynes, W. R. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| McLean, Major A. | Rea, W. Russell | Toole, J. |
| Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Rentoul, G. S. | Turner-Samuels, M. |
| Mansel, Sir Courtenay | Richards, R. | Viant, S. P. |
| March, S. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Marks, Sir George Croydon | Ritson, J. | Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth) |
| Marley, James | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Warne, G. H. |
| Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'd'ne, E.) | Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton) | Romeril, H. G. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Rose, Frank H. | Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C. |
| Maxton, James | Roundell, Colonel R. F. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Middleton, G. | Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C. | Westwood, J. |
| Mills, J. E. | Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) | Scrymgeour, E. | White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.) |
| Mond, H. | Sexton, James | Whiteley, W. |
| Morel, E. D. | Shepperson, E. W. | Wignall, James |
| Morris, R. H. | Sherwood, George Henry | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) | Shinwell, Emanuel | Williams, Dr. J. H (Lianelly) |
| Morrison, R. C (Tottenham, N.) | Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withington) | Williams, Lt.-Col. T. S. B.(Kenningtn.) |
| Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Williams, Maj. A. S. (Kent, Sevenoaks) |
| Morse, W. E. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Muir, John W. | Smith, T. (Pontefract) | Willison, H. |
| Murray, Robert | Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Murrell, Frank | Snell, Harry | Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) |
| Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. | Windsor, Walter |
| Nichol, Robert | Spence, R. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) | Wintringham, Margaret |
| Nixon, H. | Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, South) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| O'Grady, Captain James | Spero, Dr. G. E. | Woodwork, Lieut.-Colonel G. G. |
| Oliver, George Harold | Spoor, B. G. | Wright, W. |
| Owen, Major G. | Stamford, T. W. | Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick) |
| Paling, W. | Starmer, Sir Charles | |
| Palmer, E. T. | Stephen, Campbell | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. John |
| Pattlnson, S. (Horncastle) | Stranger, Innes Harold | Robertson |
§ Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURYI beg to move, in page 9, line 21, at end, to insert
(2) The rate of duty chargeable under the Second Schedule of The Finance Act, 1920, shall be reduced by twenty-five per cent. in the case of any vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed two tons.These taxes were imposed when the cost of living was at its height, and when all taxes were at their height. Motorists since that time have had no reduction, and it is time something was done for them. A Committee has been sitting for the last three years to inquire into the question of motor taxation. If that Committee does report within the next few days, its Report cannot come into force before 1926. What, we ask is a reduction of 25 per cent. for the year beginning 1st January, 1925, on motor-cars under two tons in weight, which would include light vans, bakers' vans, and the vans of small tradesmen. The cost of this is not 1070 likely to be more than £1,750,000. When these taxes were first imposed, the total amount produced was £9,000,000. To-day these, taxes bring in something like £15,500,000, and they are increasing at the rate of over £1,000,000 per year.
§ Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURYThey were put on in the year 1920–21. Sir Henry Maybury, in a speech which he made, on Friday, referred to the increase of mechanically propelled vehicles and said:
They would in all probability continue to increase. Already the road fund had over £15,500,000 this year paid into it,but he added—and he is not a real friend to the lighter motorist—he was not sure that it would be wise to give a very much larger percentage to the local authorities than they were giving. There was just a danger than when money came too easily there was not the same keen desire for economy.1071 I think that that is very true at present. People think that this road fund is a bottomless well out of which they can always draw as much as they like. In three months of this year no less than £5,500,000 was contributed by the owners of private cars and motor cyclists, which amount exceeds the whole revenue from these vehicles in 1921. Only in November last year Sir Henry Maybury again said:He believed we had come to the apex of our spending on the roads. The costs were beginning to decrease, and in many cases we had gone back again to the expense of 1913–14.Therefore, as this fund is a constantly increasing one, he thought we had already caught up with the repairs that were necessary, and that there would be no longer need to have an increasing amount going year after year into the Road Fund. I hope that the Committee will accede to this request. It does not affect the Budget in the slightest degree; the money goes into the Road Fund. I ask the Minister of Transport to give some concession after all these years to the motorists. We have had no concession whatever since the War. Motorists have been taxed unduly for the wear and tear that they are supposed to cause to the roads. The damage done by the light car is only a quarter of what is done by the heavy motor lorry. If a preference is given to cars under two tons in weight it will be a preference given to those cars with pneumatic tyres which do far and away less damage to the roads than the heavy vehicle, and they will be paying a fairer percentage of tax than they are paying to-day. The 1920 Budget was all in favour of the heavy motor interests—the big omnibus combines and all the heavy lorries that do so much damage to the roads. By reducing by 25 per cent. the taxes on the lighter cars that are under two tons in weight, you would be bringing them nearer to the right proportion, having regard to the damage that is done to the roads.
§ Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZONFirst of all it is necessary again to point out that should the Minister of Transport wish to accept this Amendment it does not affect the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because the money that we are thinking about now does not go into the Budget proper, but is ear-marked for 1072 certain particular purposes. Whether the Minister of Transport assents to or refuses this particular concession depends on a matter of high policy, which is to what amount he wishes the Road Fund to grow. On that matter the present Minister has never given us his views. I have noticed that one thing happens. As the Road Fund gets bigger, so the claims upon it become more and more. You have only to mention the words "Road Fund," anti rural Members in every quarter of the House become interested. I have the greatest respect for our bucolic and rustic frinds—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]—I can tell my Noble Friend the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) he will never get any support from them for a reduction of the Road Fund—but I assure some of these rural Members that there is one thing for which the Road Fund was not invented, namely, rural roads. The Road Fund was brought into existence to pay for roads which were being damaged by through traffic, to save local districts paying for damage done by traffic which was not theirs. Successive Governments, perhaps, granted relief to rural districts, but that is not the first claim upon it and that is not the reason for its invention. Where does the income arise which constitutes the £14,000,000 at the disposal of the Minister. Roughly, it comes in the proportion of half from pleasure vehicles and half from commercial vehicles, and, consequently, if the Minister accepts this proposal he is going to take from his income a very considerable amount. At this time we have to consider whether it is wise to reduce a fund such as we have at present by a very large margin, because at this time, more than at any other, the money going into the Road Fund is of particular value to the country. Big capital works are being engaged in by the Government and, at the present moment, the Road Fund is mortgaged for several years to come. At the present time it is well to keep the Fund as large as possible, so that these capital works and large schemes all through the country, which tend to relieve unemployment, should be carried on until unemployment diminishes. I do not recommend any of my Friends to vote for a reduction of this tax at present or until unemployment has considerably abated.
§ Viscount CURZONAs a rule, when I have the honour to be allowed to put in a plea on behalf of the motorist I meet with enthusiastic recognition from hon. Members above the Gangway opposite. I invite them not to consider the terms of the Amendment in the way in which my hon. and gallant Friend who spoke last has put it. I ask them to look at it from this point of view that practically every Member, in fact every Member of every party is to-day a motorist. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] Yes, motorists to-day are drawn from every section and class of the people and there is no distinction of class nowadays such as formerly existed between those who are owners and users of motor vehicles and those who are not. Hon. Members opposite have their Rolls-Royces. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name!" I know two or three hon. Members, and I will be prepared, if necessary, to give their names—among the Socialist party who are users of the Rolls-Royce—the most expensive vehicle. They are good judges. They agree with Mr. Trotsky, who invariably uses a Rolls-Royce. Quite seriously, however, there is not a single Member in this House who does not either own or use a motor vehicle. I invite hon. Members who disagree with me to compare notes with such hon. Members as the hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. B. Smith), who is well able to speak on this matter, or with any other hon. Member who knows that whether you use a motor omnibus, or a taxi, or a lorry, or a Rolls-Royce, or a motor bicycle, you come under the heading of a motorist. I, therefore, invite hon. Members not to consider this Amendment from the very short-sighted point of view put forward on the previous Amendment by the hon. Member for the Richmond Division of Yorkshire (Mr. M. Wilson). We also listened to a singularly short-sighted point of view put forward by the hon. and gallant Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall).
There are a number of Members very keen on housing, and I submit to hon. Members of the Socialist party that you cannot only build on slum areas, but that you have to try to develop new housing areas, for which transport will be essential, and cheap transport at that. How can you ensure cheap transport if taxation is kept at a high level on that transport? Is it not reasonable to think, in 1074 business, that the more you encourage the business to succeed, the more money you will get out of it, and the more you encourage motorists to use motor vehicles, be they light motor cars or commercial vehicles, the more you will encourage the industry? Is it not true to say that anybody who uses a motor vehicle radiates a certain amount of money through whatever section or sphere of life he may move? Supposing the urban motorist could be encouraged to use roads through rural areas, would he not be spending money in those areas? Those Members who represent agricultural constituencies are, I submit, shortsighted in putting themselves in opposition to the use of their roads by motorists. If I were in them shoes and representing an agricultural constituency, I would do all I could to induce——
§ Mr. CLIMIEIs the Noble Lord entitled to discuss the question of agriculture at this moment?
§ Viscount CURZONI am trying to put a reasoned argument before the Committee, but seemingly the hon. Member is incapable of appreciating it. I do not think it will do either him or his party any good for it to be thought that the Socialist party, of all others, is opposed to all reduction of motor taxation. He like all other Members, depends on the use of motor cars at his election. The point of view I was trying to put forward was this. It is really in the interests of the agricultural community that the use of motor cars should be encouraged. The more money there is for the Road Fund—and I invite the attention of the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Black) to this—the more money there is for roads in Leicestershire. An hon. Member who proposed a preceding Amendment said that speed was the great factor in the wear of roads. I would invite his attention to this fact. It is speed plus weight that is the great factor. Therefore, if you can get an increased amount available for the Road Fond, so much the more likely is it for hon. Members like the hon. Member for Harborough to find something for them to get hold of. I would invite the Committee to consider that, while they may treat motorists and motor users as a subject for amusement in this House, they are not so treated outside. There is no single Member of this House who does not in some way or other depend on motors 1075 to secure his return to this House. Hon. Members know well that at election time they are quite ready to appeal to the motorists for the use of their cars. If they like to turn down this request they know the answer they will very likely get if they identify themselves with the refusal on this occasion.
Most hon. Members in this House will agree with me that the present system of taxation is inequitable and has no relation to the amount of wear and tear taken by any particular vehicle out of the roads. Everybody knows it is speed plus weight. Everybody knows that if it had not been for our motor industry many hon. Members of this House who to-day laugh at motors would not be sleeping so quietly in their beds at night. Hon. Members seem to forget what our Air Force did during the War; they would not be in so much hurry to laugh at the use and development of motors if they did remember. I would invite hon. Members who laugh at me not to forget this point. I would invite them to remember that unemployment is one of the great factors to-day. I would invite hon. Members to remember that the motor industry is one of the great branches of the engineering industry in this country, and if we can do something to induce people to go in for more cars would it not benefit that branch of the industry? I do not want to detain the Committee unduly. I have tried to put forward certain arguments, no doubt in a very bad way, but I hope hon. Members will not consider the points I have advanced as unworthy of consideration. I have spoken of what I know. I invite the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make this small concession and to remember that if he refuses it on this occasion it will be treated as the first action of a Socialist Government in identifying the Socialist party with the determination to refuse any concessions whatever to those who use motors.
§ Mr. GOSLINGEven if it were possible to make some considerable concession in this direction, it is quite impossible to make a change of this kind without very serious investigation. It has been said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not suffer in his Budget by this Amendment. I suppose the Chancellor will answer for himself, but I should like to say that the claims which 1076 are coming in day by day to the Road. Fund render it quite impossible for that fund to suffer any serious reduction such as an Amendment of this kind would entail. We should have to look to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for money which is badly needed. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who moved the Amendment, I am afraid, was not quite accurate in his figures. He was quoting from a speech by a Road Director, but I have taken an opportunity of looking to the Finance Department of the Ministry for advice, and I am told that this Amendment would mean a reduction of at least three or four millions in the Road Fund. I am saying that on the authority of the Finance Department of the Ministry of Transport and I say it therefore with great confidence. This Amendment will take money away from the Road Fund at the very moment when claims are pouring in and when everyone is engaged in trying to get money out of the fund. The local authorities say that they cannot find more money for road purposes and yet there is an absolute necessity for doing more and more to improve the roads. It is suggested that what is lost on the swings may be gained on the roundabouts, and that if you lessen the taxation you will get more vehicles to tax, and therefore you will be in receipt of just as much money in the long run, but it seems to be forgotten that more vehicles will be used on the roads and that will make the expense of maintaining them still greater. If it were possible to make any change in this direction, it certainly could not be done in the way proposed by this Amendment, and it would require very serious investigation before it could be undertaken. Under the circumstances, I hope the Committee will reject the Amendment.
§ Viscount WOLMERWill the hon. Gentleman tell the Committee what proportion of the total cost of the upkeep of roads in this country is at present borne by the Road Fund?
§ Mr. REIDIs not the logical result of the hon. Gentleman's argument to increase the tax to such an extent that there would be no motorists to pay for the roads?
§ Mr. GOSLINGI cannot answer the Noble Lord without notice, but not only 1077 is the whole income of the Fund spent on the roads, but it is mortgaged years ahead.
§ 11. 0 P.M.
§ Mr. BLACKI should like to have the opportunity of saying a word or two on this Amendment, because one or two of the arguments that have been put forward to-night seem to me rather remarkable. I do not dispute that hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side are bucolic, if they like to attach that name to themselves, but I would draw attention to the fact that the Road Fund was not set in motion in order that rural roads might have attention. At the time the Road Fund was first established, motor cars did not run so much upon the rural roads, and there was no necessity then for the relief of the rural roads, but what we find now is, that while the rural roads draw practically nothing from the Road Fund, those roads are being used to a very large extent. Protests are being made in all parts, in order that this may be remedied. What I desire is, not that this 25 per cent, should be taken off any vehicle, the unladen weight of which does not exceed two tons. I believe that, in the main, the light car users do not feel the weight of the taxation. This proposal to relieve all cars under two tons of 25 per cent. of the duty would mean that practically every private motor car would be relieved. So far as my knowledge goes, the proportion of private motor cars over two tons would be very small, so that it is practically asking that 25 per cent. should be taken off the duty of nearly the whole of those who use private motor cars. That does not seem a reasonable proposal, and I quite agree with the Minister that the sum involved would not be less than £3,000,000. There was one argument used this afternoon about those who rode in omnibuses. But these are the very things that people should ride in. I hope that the Minister of Transport will stick to his guns.
§ Viscount WOLMERMy hon. Friend the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) has appealed to the agriculturists to support him in this Amendment. I am afraid that I, as an agricultural Member, can give him no change whatever. We agriculturists say that the people who should pay for the roads are the people that use them. It is not the agriculturists, but the motorists that do 1078 the damage to the roads. As a matter of fact, the motorists are not paying anything like their share for the upkeep of the roads. I quite agree with my Noble Friend that the present incidence of motor taxation is not fair. I wish that he or some other motor-car expert would devise some method by which the motor-cars paid, say, according to mileage. The Report of the Committee which is going to be published in a few days' time will, I hope, show some improved method of assessing motor taxation. In some individual cases it is most unfair. Until we have a practical proposal put forward for improving the method by which the tax is levied, I do not think that those who sit for agricultural constituencies can possibly support a proposal to reduce any large portion of this duty by 25 per cent. I quite agree with my Noble Friend that the cars which are doing the damage are heavy lorries, and if it were in order I should very much like to see some hon. Member propose an increase in the duty on heavy cars. I wish the Government would consider that. But that cannot be moved from these benches. Therefore, until a more equitable and just tax is devised I am afraid those of us most concerned to keep local taxation as low as possible must oppose the proposal of my Noble Friend.
§ Mr. B. SMITHI do not think there is anybody in this House who would not like to see a reduction generally in the taxation of motor vehicles. But the Amendment is being supported as an Amendment that wants to take something between the figure mentioned by my hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and the hon. Gentleman opposite of between £4,000,000 and £7,000,000 for what I call the luxury users. At the present time an omnibus is taxed at £84, a cab is taxed at £15 in London and £12 in the rest of the country. I am going to say that if you want to do the thing at all we ought to reduce the taxes which will ultimately bring down the prices. Take the two-ton lorry. I suppose if you take vehicles of two tons and upwards, some millions of pounds from them come into the revenue annually. Keep the tax on above that, or, rather, take it all above the two, and you are in a fair way reducing the prices. I am saying that seriously. If we are to have reduced taxation, then I say it 1079 ought either to be general in its scope or specific with regard to these duties that are distributed over the whole country.
§ Lieut. - Colonel HOWARD - BURYWhich does the damage to the roads, the heavy car or the light car?
§ Mr. SMITHMy experience generally is that the agricultural 10-ton lorry travelling on the road does a lot of damage to it, and I am certain of this, too that the light cars can do a good deal of damage
§ Viscount WOLMERWill the hon. Gentleman tell the Committee how many farmers have 10-ton lorries?
§ I shall be glad for him to tell us what he has seen in this matter. We are being asked to give up something like £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 of taxation on what is luxury usage. Having regard to the fact that fully 70 per cent. of these cars run only in the summer, and have already a 50 per cent. reduction by taking out a quarterly licence; and also the fact that they get a rebate on an annual licence, it is all a concession to luxury riding. If I could afford a car I should expect to pay the tax. If this Amendment is pressed I shall support the Government.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 92; Noes, 318.
1083| Division No. 123.] | AYES. | [11.12 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Dixon, Herbert | Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Alexander, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. (Glas. C.) | Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Apsley, Lord | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Perring, William George |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Gates, Percy | Plelou, D. P. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Gwynne, Rupert S. | Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. |
| Barnett, Major Richard W. | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Remer, J. R. |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Richardson, Lt. Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) |
| Bellairs, Commander Canyon W. | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Ropner, Major L. |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Harris, John (Hackney, North) | Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Univ.) |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Hartington, Marquess of | Samuel. A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bourne, Robert Croft | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Savery, S. S. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hogbin, Henry Cairns | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-In-Furness) |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. |
| Burman, J. B. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Stewart, Maj. R. S. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Hughes, Collingwood | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Sunlight, J. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Sutcliffe, T. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) | Thompson. Luke (Sunderland) |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Jephcott, A. R. | Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.) |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Toole, J. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Locker- Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Lord, Walter Greaves- | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert | Lumley, L. R. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lyle, Sir Leonard | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll)[...] | MacDonald, R. | |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Lieut.-Colonel Howard-Bury and |
| Deans, Richard Storry | Moles, Thomas | Captain Viscount Ednam. |
| Noes | ||
| Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke | Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Brunner, Sir J. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. William | Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) | Buchanan, G. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Batey, Joseph | Buckle, J. |
| Ainsworth, Captain Charles | Betterton, Henry B. | Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Birkett, W. N. | Butler, Sir Geoffrey |
| Allen, R. Wilberforce (Leicester. S.) | Black, J. W. | Cape, Thomas |
| Alstead, R. | Blundell, F. N. | Cautley, Sir Henry S. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Bondfield, Margaret | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Bonwick, A. | Chapple, Dr. William A. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Charleton, H. C. |
| Attlee, Major Clement R. | Bramsdon, Sir Thomas | Climie, R. |
| Ayles, W. H. | Brassey, Sir Leonard | Cluse, W. S. |
| Baker, Walter | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon William Clive | Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Briscoe, Captain Richard George | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips |
| Banton, G. | Broad, F. A. | Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) |
| Barclay, R. Noton | Bromfield, William | Collins, Patrick (Walsall) |
| Barnes, A. | Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) | Compton, Joseph |
| Comyns-Carr, A. S. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Raynes, W. R. |
| Costello, L. W. J. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) | Rea, W. Russell |
| Cove, W. G. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Rees, Sir Beddoe |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Richards, R. |
| Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.) | Jewett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Crittall, V. G. | Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) | Ritson, J. |
| Daikeith, Earl of | Kay, Sir R. Newbald | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) |
| Darbishire, C. W. | Keens, T. | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) |
| Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Robertson, J.(Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Kirkwood, D. | Romeril, H. G. |
| Dickie, Captain J. P. | Lamb, J. Q. | Rose, Frank H. |
| Dickson, T. | Lane-Fox, George R. | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Lansbury, George | Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C. |
| Dukes, C. | Laverack, F. J. | Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) |
| Duncan, C. | Law, A. | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Dunnieo, H. | Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Lawson, John James | Seely, H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Leach. W. | Seely, Rt. Hn. Maj.-Gen. J. E. B. (I. of W.) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lee, F. | Sexton, James |
| Edwards. G. (Norfolk, Southern) | Lessing, E. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Egan, W. H. | Linfield, F. C. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Elveden, Viscount | Loverseed, J. F. | Sherwood, George Henry |
| England, Colonel A. | Lunn, William | Shinwell, Emanuel |
| Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | McCrae, Sir George | Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withington) |
| Falconer, J. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Finney, V. H. | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. | McEntee, V. L. | Smith, T. (Pontefract) |
| Forestier-Walker, L. | Macfadyen, E. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Mackinder, W. | Snell, Harry |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | McLean, Major A. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Gavan-Duffy, Thomas | Mansel, Sir Courtenay | Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. |
| George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) | March, S. | Spence, R. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) |
| Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Marley, James | Spencer. H. H. (Bradford, South) |
| Gillett, George M. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Spero, Dr. G. E. |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) | Spoor, B. G. |
| Gorman. William | Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Gosling, Harry | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Stanley, Lord |
| Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) | Maxton, James | Starmer, Sir Charles |
| Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) | Middleton, G. | Steel, Samuel Strang |
| Greenall, T. | Mills, J. E. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) | Stranger, Innes Harold |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Mond, H. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Groves, T. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- |
| Grundy, T. W. | Morel, E. D. | Sturrock, J. Leng |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Morris, R. H. | Sullivan, J. |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) | Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William |
| Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C.(Honiton) | Terrington, Lady |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Morse, W. E. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Mosley, Oswald | Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay) |
| Harbord, Arthur | Moulton, Major Fletcher | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Hardie, George D. | Mulr, John W. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Harris, Percy A. | Murray, Robert | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Murrell, Frank | Thornton, Maxwell R. |
| Harvey, C. M. B.(Aberd'n & Kincardne) | Naylor, T. E. | Thurtle, E. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Hastings, Sir Patrick | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Tout, W. J. |
| Hastings, Somerville (Reading) | Nichol, Robert | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Haycock, A. W. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Turner-Samuels, M. |
| Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Viant, S. P. |
| Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South) | Nixon, H. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | O'Grady, Captain James | Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth) |
| Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld) | Oliver, George Harold | Warne, G. H. |
| Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Hirst, G. H. | Paling, W. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Hobhouse, A. L. | Palmer, E. T. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) | Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Hoffman, P. C. | Pease, William Edwin | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Hood, Sir Joseph | Pennefather, Sir John | Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C. |
| Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.) | Penny, Frederick George | Wells, S. R. |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie | Perry, S. F. | Weston, John Wakefield |
| Hudson, J. H. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Westwood, J |
| Huntingfield, Lord | Philipson, Mabel | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Phillipps, Vivian | Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H. |
| Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich) | Potts, John S. | Whiteley, W. |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Pringle, W. M. R. | Williams, A. (York, W. R., Sowerby) |
| Jewson, Dorothea | Purcell, A. A. | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Raffety, F. W. | Williams, Dr. J. H (Llanelly) |
| Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) | Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford | Williams, Lt.-Col. T. S. B.(Kenningtn.) |
| Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Rathbone, Hugh R. | Williams, Maj. A. S. (Kent, Sevenoaks) |
| Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George | Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick) |
| Willison, H. | Wintringham, Margaret | |
| Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) | Wolmer, Viscount | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) | Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. | Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Allen |
| Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) | Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G. | Parkinson. |
| Windsor, Walter | Wright, W. |
§ Mr. HANNONI beg to move, in page 9, line 27, at end, to insert the words
Paragraph (5) of the Second Schedule of the Finance Act, 1920, is hereby amended so that the rate of duty for vehicles constructed or adapted for use and used solely for the conveyance of goods in the course of trade and not exceeding sixteen hundred-weights in weight unladen (other than vehicles electrically propelled) shall be ten pounds.The effect of this Amendment is to increase the weight of commercial vehicles chargeable at the minimum duty of £10. The duties payable are: on a vehicle not exceeding 12 cwt. unladen, £10; exceeding 12 cwt. but not exceeding one ton, £16. My Amendment would make wider provision for the introduction of the 15 cwt. vehicle which is now coming into common use, and which serves a very useful purpose for a very large number of traders throughout the country. The smaller class of trader and shopkeeper have much more largely taken up the use of the motor car than was the case when the 1920 Act was passed. It would be of great advantage to that class of trader if the minimum duty of £10 were applied to vehicles of the 16 cwt. unladen size. We were not producing many of these vehicles in 1920, whereas we are producing a very large number of them to-day. It is a comparatively light vehicle, the wear and tear on the road is inconsiderable, and it would be a distinct advantage to a very large number of traders and shopkeepers if this concession were made. I know how anxious the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to make concessions to every worthy object. Hon. Members will have noticed that the right hon. Gentleman is in no respect different from other Chancellors of the Exchequer in the quality and quantity of the concessions he makes. Chancellors of the Exchequer all down our history have been a breed peculiar to themselves - exceedingly kind when they are extracting money from the pockets of the taxpayers, but very hard when it comes to making concessions to the people who have to bear the burdens of taxation. I appeal to the Chancellor, benevolent man 1084 as he is, to consider the small trader and shopkeeper.
§ Viscount CURZONI support the Amendment. I should have thought it was an Amendment that would make its appeal to all parts of the Committee. I look upon vehicles of this sort as being the poor man's motor vehicles. This Amendment is to benefit the small shopkeeper. I should have thought that hon. Members opposite would have been ready to do their utmost to help the small man. Many hon. Members opposite are associated with co-operative societies. Co-operative societies are largely users of the small van which would be benefited by this Amendment. I appeal to the Government not to let it be thought that the Socialist Government, of all others, is against making any concessions to the users of motor vehicles, trade vehicles or private vehicles. Hon. Members opposite have always told us that they are against restrictions on trade. I hope that by their votes on this Amendment they will show that they are prepared to give effect to the speeches which they make in debate.
§ Mr. GOSLINGWhile this Amendment grants relief to a certain section of light vehicles, it makes no compensating increase in the case of heavier vehicles. The effect of the Amendment would, therefore, be a substantial loss of revenue.
§ Viscount CURZONHow is it possible for any hon. Member on this side of the Committee to propose an increase of taxation?
§ Mr. GOSLINGI am reminded of a promise which I made in the House some time ago that the Departmental Committee would make their Report in June. That Report came to me this morning, and a matter of this kind is a matter that should be considered in the light of that Report. I have not yet had an opportunity of knowing all that it means, but as soon as we have gone into it I hope that we may be able to deal with the matter. Meantime, I would ask the Noble Lord to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Mr. HANNONWill the Minister give an undertaking that between this and the Report stage he will take into consideration the Report of the Departmental Committee, and be prepared to consider a form of words in which this matter can be dealt with?
§ Mr. GOSLINGI could not go as far as that, because it is a very big Report. I will look into the matter as soon as possible.
§ Mr. HANNONIt is a poor consolation to my Noble Friend to be told that the hon. Gentleman will look into the matter, unless he can give some promise that he will consider it in a sympathetic way.
§ matter of the export trade. Owing to the taxation which is imposed in this country at present a lower horse-power car is being produced by our manufacturers than is required in foreign countries. One of the effects of our taxation is that the one type of car is being provided for the home market, and we are losing very considerably in the export trade. Quite apart from the considerations put by my hon. Friends, this Amendment will have considerable effect in helping our export trade by enabling our manufacturers to produce different types of cars for the home and export markets.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted.'
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 70; Noes, 291.
1087| Division No. 124.] | AYES. | [11.38 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Ednam, Viscount | Raine, W. |
| Ainsworth, Captain Charles | Falls, Major Sir Bertram Godfray | Remer, J. R. |
| Alexander, Brg.-Gen. Sir W. (Glas. C.) | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Gates, Percy | Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) |
| Barnett, Major Richard W. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Ropner, Major L. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Bourne, Robert Croft | Harbord, Arthur | Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Univ.) |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Hartington, Marquess of | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough) | Stanley, Lord |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Stewart, Maj. R. S. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Burman, J. B. | Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Sutcliffe, T. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Jephcott, A. R. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Kindersiey, Major G. M. | Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.) |
| Chlicott, Sir Warden | Lumley, L. R. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Clayton, G. C. | Lyle, Sir Leonard | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otfey) |
| Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. | MacDonald, R. | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T C. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Perring, William George | Mr. Hannon and Captain Viscount |
| Deans, Richard Storry | Philipson, Mabel | Curzon. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Pielou, D. P. | |
| NOES | ||
| Actand, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Cave, W. G. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. William | Brassey, Sir Leonard | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Crittall, V. G. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro) | Briscoe, Captain Richard George | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Ammon, Charles George | Broad, F. A. | Darbishire, C. W. |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Bromfield, William | Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) | Dickie, Captain J. P. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Brunner, Sir J. | Dickson, T. |
| Attlee, Major Clement R. | Buchanan, G. | Dukes, C. |
| Ayles, W. H. | Buckle, J. | Duncan, C. |
| Baird, Major Rt. Hon. Sir John L. | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Dunnico, H. |
| Baker, Walter | Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty) |
| Banton, G. | Cape, Thomas | Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern) |
| Barclay, R. Noton | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) | Egan, W. H. |
| Barnes, A. | Chapple, Dr. William A. | Elveden, Viscount |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Charleton, H. C. | England, Colonel A. |
| Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) | Cluse, W. S. | Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Batey, Joseph | Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Falconer, J. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Finney, V. H. |
| Birkett, W. N. | Collins, Patrick (Walsall) | Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. |
| Black, J. W. | Compton, Joseph | Forestler-Walker, L. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Comyns-Carr, A. S. | Galbraith, J. F. W. |
| Bonfield, Margaret | Cope, Major William | Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) |
| Bonwick, A. | Costello, L. W. J. | Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) |
| Gavan-Duffy, Thomas | Lee, F. | Sexton, James |
| George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Lessing, E. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Gibbs, Cot Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Linfield, F C. | Sherwood, George Henry |
| Gillet, George M. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withingtn.) |
| Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John | Loverseed, J. F. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Gorman, William | Lunn, William | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Gosling, Harry | McCrae, Sir George | Smith, T. (Pontetract) |
| Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Greenall, T. | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Snell, Harry |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | McEntee, V. L. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Mackinder, W. | Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. |
| Groves, T. | McLean, Major A. | Spence, R. |
| Grundy, T. W. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Spencer. George A. (Broxtowe) |
| Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Spero, Dr. G. E. |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Spoor, B. G. |
| Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E. | Mansel, Sir Courtenay | Stamford, T. W. |
| Gwynne, Rupert S. | March, S. | Stormer, Sir Charles |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Marley, James | Steel, Samuel Strang |
| Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Hardie, George D. | Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton) | Stranger, Innes Harold |
| Harmsworth, Hon, E. C. (Kent) | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Sturrock, J. Long |
| Harris, John (Hackney, North) | Maxton, James | Sullivan, J. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Middleton, G. | Sunlight, J. |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Mond, H. | Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William |
| Harvey, C. M. B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne) | Morris, R. H. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury) | Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) | Terrington, Lady |
| Hastings, Sir Patrick | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Hastings, Somerville (Reading) | Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton) | Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay) |
| Haycock, A. W. | Morse, W. E. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Mosley, Oswald | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South) | Moulton, Major Fletcher | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Murray, Robert | Thornton, Maxwell R. |
| Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld) | Murrell, Frank | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Naylor, T. E. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Hirst, G. H. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Tout, W. J. |
| Hobhouse, A. L. | Newton, Sir D. G C. (Cambridge) | Treveiyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) | Nixon, H. | Viant, S. P. |
| Hodges, Frank | O'Grady, Captain James | Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth) |
| Hoffman, P. C. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh | Warne, G. H. |
| Hoghin, Henry Cairns | Oliver, George Harold | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Paling, W. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Hood, Sir Joseph | Palmer, E. T. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie | Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) | Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C. |
| Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland, Northrn.) | Pennefather, Sir John | Wells, S. R. |
| Hudson, J. H. | Penny, Frederick George | Welsh, J. C. |
| Huntingfield, Lord | Perry, S. F. | Westwood, J. |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich) | Phillipps, Vivian | Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Potts, John S. | White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.) |
| Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) | Pringle, W. M. R. | Whiteley, W. |
| Jewson, Dorothea | Purcell, A. A. | Williams, A. (York, W. R., Sowerby) |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Raffely, F. W. | Williams, David (Swansea, E) |
| Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Rothbone, Hugh R. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) | Raynes, W. R. | Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kenningtn.) |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Rea, W. Russell | Willison, H. |
| Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.) | Richards, R. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Windsor, Walter |
| Kay, Sir R. Newbald | Ritson, J. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Keens, T. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Wintringham, Margaret |
| Kennedy, T. | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| King, Captain Henry Douglas | Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford) | Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. |
| Lamp, J. O. | Romeril, H. G. | Woodwork. Lieut.-Colonel G. G. |
| Lane-Fox, Grorge R. | Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C. | Wright, W. |
| Lanesbury, Grorge | Samuel, H. Waiter (Swansea, West) | Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick) |
| Laverack, F.J. | Sandeman, A. Stewart | |
| Law, A. | Savery, S. S. | TELLERS FOR THE NOEL.— |
| Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North) | Scrymgeour, E. | Mr. John Robertson and Mr. |
| Lawson, John James | Seely. H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern) | Thomas Griffiths. |
| Leach, W. | Seely, Rt. Hon. Maj-Gen. J. E. B.(I. of W.) |
§ Mr. HANNONI beg to move, in page 9, line 27, at the end, to insert
(3) The Minister of Transport may make regulations providing for the issue of a transferable licence or licences to a person keeping or using more than one vehicle so 1088 that the holder of such transferable licence shall not be required to take out a separate licence for each such vehicle, provided that the rate of duty payalbe on such transferable licence shall not be less than the appropriate duty payable under the Second Schedule of the Finance Act, 1920, as 1089 amended by any subsequent enactment, for the vehicle for which the transferable licence is used.The object of this Amendment is to provide for the case of a motor vehicle owner who wishes to have a second or stand-by car, and that he should only pay for one licence, provided he never uses more than one car at a time. The Amendment would give to a man with two cars a transferable licence, where one of those cars was required to be used as a relief car. With this transferable licence, a man might make use of an old car without having to undertake the heavy cost of a special licence, and as this does not involve any considerable loss to the Exchequer, the Chancellor and the Minister of Transport might put their heads together and make this concession. They have given us nothing at all to-night. The Minister of Transport, who is so warmly sympathetic with every development of transport in this country, ought to have a little more consideration for those of us who are trying to get the efficiency of road transport advanced, but he has not given us a single sign to-night that he really means by a concession to continue to help motor road traffic. Now he has an opportunity of doing so, by agreeing to this transferable licence, and I appeal to him to make this gesture, and to intercede with his hardhearted colleague, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Here are we, making speeches all night and getting nothing for it. Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that such a, continuous manifestation of energy deserves something more?
§ Mr. GOSLINGThis Amendment is to allow the owner of more than one vehicle to transfer the licence from one vehicle to another. It therefore strikes right across the fundamental principle of the present method of licences for mechanically-propelled vehicles, which is that each vehicle shall have a separate licence appropriate to itself. It would be almost impossible to enforce this provision successfully, as it would really involve the police, when inspecting a, licence, being able to identify the model. [Hon. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"] If the Amendment were accepted, the result would be that there would in all probability be a great many vehicles run on the road which were inadequately licensed, and I am, therefore, sorry that, under the circumstances, I cannot accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. HANNONWhat difficulty is there about transferring the licence from one car to another?
§ Viscount CURZONIt is all very well to come here and tell us, upon each succeeding Amendment which has anything to do with motor vehicles, "We cannot do anything for you." I would ask hon. Members opposite to consider that what is asked for in this Amendment is merely an extension of the principle which is admitted by every single motor insurance company that insures a car. This Amendment is designed to extend to motor vehicles the principle observed by insurance companies to owners who possess more than one car, by allowing a rebate in cases where only one car is in use at a time. This, I submit, is a very fair principle, because when a car is standing in its garage, it is not wearing the roads.
§ Mr. B. SMITHThis is a question of licensing, not of rebate.
§ 12 M.
§ Viscount CURZONI quite agree but I am trying to show what is the object-of this Amendment, i.e., the extension to licensing motor cars which is now admitted by insurance companies. We are claiming that a motor car which is not in use, but is standing in its garage, should not be called upon to pay a tax. It seems altogether unfair. If the owner is prepared to give a solemn undertaking that he will not have more than one car in use at a time, it should be possible to issue to him a transferable licence. I would like to point out to hon. Members who are opposing this Amendment that they are losing practically their last chance of relieving the existing taxation on the motoring community, to whom they are so apt to appeal for the loan of cars at emergency times, such as a General Election. Surely, in return for that, they might well support this very reasonable demand for a businesslike arrangement which would ensure that the motor owner shall pay part upkeep of the roads in the proportion in which he uses them and not compel him to pay a, full licence duty for a car which may be in use only three or four days a year. The Minister has not really dealt with that point. Under the circumstances I hope that even at this late hour or at any rate before the report stage is reached he may be able to give further consideration to the question and seek to relieve the position I have described. 1091 All these Amendments to reduce the taxation on motor-cars have really been caused by the inequitable system under which motor taxation is levied. The Minister received this morning the Report of the Departmental Committee which has been sitting for no less than three years. Of course, he requires time to consider it, but they may have made a recommendation on this point, and he might give us an undertaking that, if the Committee have made such a recommendation, he will deal with it on the Report stage.
§ Mr. SUNLIGHTI think the demand made is a reasonable one, and if the Minister will agree to it, he will be
§ meeting the interests of motoring in this country.
§ Mr. G. BALFOURI would not have intervened if the Minister of Transport had said a single word in reply to my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment. Surely he must admit that it is better to encourage a motor owner to purchase two vehicles in place of one, provided he only runs one vehicle. And surely the difficulty foreshadowed by his Department is non-existent. Is it not possible with the present licence to have a description of both cars, and the licence duty would be paid on the higher scale car?
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 79; Noes, 246.
1093| Division No. 125 | AYES | [12.7 a.m. |
| Ainsworth, Captain Charles | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Pielou, D. P. |
| Baird, Major Rt. Hon. Sir John L. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Pringle, W. M. R. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Ralne, W. |
| Barnett, Major Richard W. | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Remer, J. R. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Hartington, Marquess of | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) |
| Bourne, Robert Croft | Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough) | Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Un'lv[...].) |
| Brass, Captain W. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Briscoe, Captain Richard George | Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland, Northrn.) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Brunner, Sir J. | Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hughes, Collingwood | Stanley, Lord |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Huntingfield, Lord | Steel, Samuel Strang |
| Burman, J. B. | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) | Sunlight, J. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Jephcott, A. R. | Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.) |
| Clayton, G. C. | Lumley, L. R. | Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon.-Hull) |
| Collins, Patrick (Walsall) | McLean, Major A. | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Woodwork, Lieut.-Colonel G. G. |
| Davies, Mal. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Moore Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph | |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| England, Colonel A. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Mr. Hannon and Captain Viscount |
| Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Penny, Frederick George | Curzon. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | |
| NOES | ||
| Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke | Bowyer, Cant G. E. W. | Duncan, C. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. William | Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Donnico, H. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Broad, F. A. | Edmondson. Major A. J. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Bromfield, William | Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwelity) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hilisbro') | Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) | Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern) |
| Alexander, Brg.-Gen. Sir W. (Glas. C.) | Buchanan, G. | Egan, W. H. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Buckle, J. | Falconer, J. |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Cape, Thomas | Finney, V. H |
| Astor, Viscountess | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Blrm., W). | Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. |
| Attlee, Major Clement R. | Charleton, H. C. | Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) |
| Ayles, W. H. | Close, W. S. | Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) |
| Baker, Waiter | Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. | George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Gibbins, Joseph |
| Banton, G. | Compton, Joseph | Gorman, William |
| Barnes, A. | Comyns-Carr, A. S. | Gosling, Harry |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Cope, Major William | Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) |
| Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) | Costello, L. W. J. | Greenall, T. |
| Batey, Joseph | Crittall, V. G. | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Darblshire, C. W. | Groves, T. |
| Birkett, W. N. | Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Grundy, T. W. |
| Black, J. W. | Dickie, Captain J. P. | Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Dickson, T. | Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E. |
| Bonwick, A. | Dukes, C. | Gwynne, Rupert S. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Calthness) |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Hardie, George D. | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Smith, T. (Pontefract) |
| Harris, John (Hackney, North) | Maxton, James | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Middleton, G. | Snell, Harry |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Mond, H. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Harvey, C.M.B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne) | Morris, R. H. | Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury) | Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) | Spence, R. |
| Hastings, Somerville (Reading) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) |
| Haycock, A. W. | Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton) | Spero, Dr. G. E. |
| Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Morse, W. E. | Spoor, B. G. |
| Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South) | Mosley, Oswald | Stamford, T. W. |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Moulton, Major Fletcher | Starmer, Sir Charles |
| Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld) | Murray, Robert | Stephen, Campbell |
| Hirst, G. H. | Murrell, Frank | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Hobhouse, A. L. | Naylor, T. E. | Stewart, Maj. R. S.(Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Hodges, Frank | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Stranger, Innes Harold |
| Hoffman, P. C. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Sturrock, J. Leng |
| Hogbin, Henry Cairns | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Sullivan, J. |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Nixon, H. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Hore-Bellsha, Major Leslie | O'Grady, Captain James | Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay) |
| Hudson, J. H. | Oliver, George Harold | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middiesbro. W.) |
| Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich) | Paling, W. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) | Thornton, Maxwell R. |
| Jewson, Dorothea | Pease, William Edwin | Tinker, John Joseph |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Pennefather, Sir John | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Perrino, William George | Tout, W. J. |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth) | Perry, S. F. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Viant, S. P. |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Philipson, Mabel | Warne, G. H. |
| Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Phillipps, Vivian | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.) | Potts, John S. | Watson, Sir IF. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Kay, Sir R. Newbald | Purcell, A. A. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Keens, T. | Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D (Rhondda) |
| King, Captain Henry Douglas | Rathbone, Hugh R. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C. |
| Lansbury, George | Richards, R. | Wells, S. R. |
| Laverack, F. J. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Law, A | Ritson, J. | Westwood, J. |
| Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North) | Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) | Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H. |
| Lawson, John James | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) | Whiteley, W. |
| Leach, W. | Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) | Williams, A. (York, W. R., Sowerby) |
| Lee, F. | Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford) | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Lessing, E. | Romeril, H. G. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Linfield, F. C. | Ropner, Major L. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Loverseed, J. F. | Roundell, Colonel R. F. | Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kenningtn.) |
| Lunn, William | Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C. | Willson, H. |
| McCrae, Sir George | Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Sandeman, A. Stewart | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Savery, S. S. | Windsor, Walter |
| MacDonald, R. | Scrymgeour, E. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| McEntee, V. L. | Seely, H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern) | Wintringham, Margaret |
| Mackinder, W. | Seely, Rt. Hon. Maj.-Gen. J.E.B. (I. of W.) | Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. |
| Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Sexton, James | Wright, W. |
| Mansel, Sir Courtenay | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick) |
| March, S. | Sherwood, George Henry | |
| Marley, James | Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withingtn.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Parkinson |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Sir T. INSKIPThe Chancellor of the Exchequer will remember that in his Budget statement he said:
The other recommendation is that the surcharge on quarterly licences, which, is now 20 per cent., should be reduced to 10 per cent. I propose to take power in the Finance Bill to give effect to both these recommendations."—[OFFIcIAL, REPORT, 29th April, 1924; col. 1600, Vol. 172.]There is no Clause in the Finance Bill dealing with it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer tells me that it is not necessary, because it is a matter of administrative Order. No doubt his information is correct on that point, but, in view of the fact that it is not desirable that the 1094 subject should be taxed by administrative Order, and that he proposed to put a Clause in the Finance Bill, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will introduce on Report the necessary Clause to carry out his undertaking.
§ Mr. SNOWDENI am glad that the hon. and learned Gentleman has raised this matter. I was advised that it is unnecessary to incorporate it in the Finance Bill, as it can be done by administrative Order. I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that between now and Report, I will confirm that, and, if it should be necessary to put anything in the Bill to make quite sure, it shall be done, because the pledge that I gave in my Budget speech shall be carried out.
§ Sir T. INSKIPI think that very likely the right hon. Gentleman is right, and that it is not, strictly speaking, necessary, but we want to get away from the practice of altering taxation by administrative Order. I should prefer to see this relaxation of taxation put in the Bill, and not left to the control of the Minister.
§ Lieut.-Colonel L. WARDI cannot help feeling that the ambiguity of the wording of the surrender and rebate provision in this Clause may lead to considerable dissatisfaction and misunderstanding, and I should be obliged if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would explain what it actually does mean. Is it only intended to apply to a man who sells a car, or will it apply also to the man who lays up his car for a specified period? I think it is quite clear, for example, that a man who sells a car in June would, on surrendering the licence, be entitled to recover the balance of the amount which he had paid—in other words, the rebate on the unexpired portion of the licence. But is a man who goes abroad on business for two months, say in June, also entitled to surrender his licence for two months and obtain a rebate for those two months? If so, the wording of the Clause would hardly lead one to suppose that that is the case, and yet the Chancellor, in his Budget speech, led us to infer that it would be. I shall be very glad if the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Minister of Transport will explain that point.
§ Viscount CURZONI want to press the Chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to this Clause. The Minister of Transport has told us that he received only this morning the Report of his Departmental Committee. Every proposal that we have made so far has been turned down. Might I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there may be recommendations in this Report which vitally affect the system of taxation of motor vehicles, and ask him whether, between now and Report, those recommendations may be considered and, if necessary, incorporated, as far as may be—I do not say all of them—in the Bill at that stage? I think that that is a reasonable request. Every submission we have made to the Chancellor to-night in the form of Amendments has been turned down; might I ask him whether he can give favourable consideration to this humble request which I make to him with great respect?
§ Mr. HANNONBefore the Motion be put, I think we on this side ought to register our protest against the treatment of the motoring public by Ministers to-night. A series of Amendments have been put down to the Finance Bill, each of which was calculated to improve the conditions of the motoring industry and of the motoring public, but not one single considerate reply has been given by Members of the Government this evening to any of the proposals submitted from this side of the Committee. The Minister of Transport, if I may respectfully say so, ought to take into consideration that there must be some relation between the taxation and the efficiency of the motor vehicle which is taxed, but he has shown to-night no regard at all for what ought to be the fundamental principle in taxing motor vehicles. We have made the best fight we could to-night on behalf of owners and users of motor cars, and particularly that large class of people to whom the motor vehicle, in these days, is of such immense importance in the maintenance of the enterprises in which they are engaged. I must say we have received no sympathy of any sort or kind from His Majesty's Ministers.
It is easy for hon. Members opposite to say, "Why did you not do this last year?" We made the same fight last year against our own Ministers, but the exigencies of national finance were much greater then than they are this year, because the prosperity of the country under my right hon. Friend's administration has been such that the Chancellor of the Exchequer can now get taxes much more easily than was the case last year. But, in spite of the improved condition of the country because of a beneficent Conservative administration, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, enjoying the full happiness of his heritage, does not make a single concession to us in regard to the taxation of the motoring public. I hope that that public, from the humblest to the highest, in this country, will take note of the kind of sympathy the Government have for those who are owners of cars, and particularly those who use the motor car in carrying on the industrial life of the country. For that vast class of people neither the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor my kindly and genial friend the Minister of Transport has one single word. I am quite certain that if the 1097 Minister of Transport had to deal with this question himself, motorists and the motor industry would not have a better friend in the House of Commons, but, unhappily, he comes under the influence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who concedes nothing to anyone, who stands there in the plenitude of his power, depending upon hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway whose affection for his Free Trade doctrines maintains him in office and enables him to refuse these concessions. It is deplorable that a great class in the community like the owners of motor cars, and particularly those who employ motor cars in the prosecution of legitimate enterprise, cannot get a single concession from His Majesty's Ministers.
§ Mr. SUNLIGHTI should like to know under what condition a person can obtain a rebate on the unexpired portion of his licence. I understand that the condition is that the car has either to be sold or broken up. That is no concession. If a person has taken out a licence for a year he should be entitled to a rebate for at least one quarter, so that he can utilise that money for the purpose of getting a licence for a second car.
§ Mr. SNOWDENI do not think there can be any ambiguity about the phraseology of the Clause. There is nothing in the Clause which limits the right to surrender a licence and to get a rebate in a case where the ear has been broken up.
§ Lieut.-Colonel L. WARDLaid up.
§ Mr. SNOWDENReference has been made to the case where a car is broken up. I had this in my mind, that we should allow the rebate in the case of a, man who for any reason did not want to use his car for the remainder of the unexpired period of the licence.
§ Lieut.-Colonel L. WARDIt must be the remainder of the unexpired period?
§ Mr. SNOWDENCertainly; unexpired at the date of surrender. In regard to the request made by the Noble Lord that we should between now and the 1098 Report stage take into consideration the recommendations of the Committee which has been inquiring into the question of motor taxation. I am afraid I can give no such promise. I do not anticipate that there will be very much time before the Report stage is upon us, and it would be quite impossible to give adequate consideration to the recommendations in the short time available. I do not know what the recommendations are, but no doubt they will involve many changes in the method of motor taxation. If they were to be embodied in the Finance Bill it would mean Ways and Means Resolutions.
§ Mr. SNOWDENI beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I rather hesitate not to utilise still further the unbounded energy of certain hon. Members on this side of the Committee, but the hon. Member for the Moseley Division of Birmingham (Mr. Hannon) has stated more than once that I never concede anything. I am going to make a concession now. We have made fairly good progress. I am informed by one old Parliamentary hand that we have created a record, because never in the history of the House have 15 Clauses of a Finance Bill been passed through in one evening.
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Wednesday.
§ The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
§ It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Monday Evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
§ Adjourned at Twenty-five Minutes before One o'Clock.
§ The name of Miss Margaret Bondfield (Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Labour) was inadvertently inserted among the Noes, voting against the Motion for the Third Reading of the London Traffic Bill, on Thursday last. Miss Bondfield did not take part in the Division, and was absent from the House at the time.
§ On the other hand, the name of Mr. R. Climie, who voted with the Ayes, in favour of the Bill, was omitted from the official lists of the Division.