§ Collectors of taxes, whether appointed by the General Commissioners of Taxes or the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, shall hold office during the will and pleasure of the appointing authority.—[Sir K. Wood.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Sir K. WOODI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
This Clause relates to an important body of men who are known as Collectors of Taxes, and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will agree that a large measure of the success of his Budget 2156 depends upon the efforts of these important officials. This Clause is designed to give them some better security of tenure. At the present time the method of appointment of Collectors varies in different parts of the Kingdom, but, with the exception of Scotland, the appointment is only for the Income Tax year of assessment, without any certainty whatever of its continuance for subsequent years. In England the General Commissioners, acting in the various divisions, make the appointments, except in certain cases where the right of appointment has passed to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. In Scotland the appointments are in the hands of the Treasury, while in Ireland the Commissioners for Special Purposes exercise the right. The Committee will, therefore, see that whilst this body of men, who in many cases are responsible for very large sums of money, have, so far as their security of office is concerned, a purely temporary appointment for one year, under the terms of their appointment they are put in this curious position, that they can be called upon in subsequent years to continue their work which may be left over from the year for which they were definitely appointed. Their status is a most peculiar one and thoroughly unsatisfactory. Their appointment in a large number of cases is in the hands of one authority, whilst their remuneration is in that of another. I am sure that when claims are put forward on behalf of the collectors for concessions the Treasury often object with the statement that collectors are the temporary employés of the General Commissioners, notwithstanding the fact that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are responsible for the appointment of at least one-fourth of their number. The defects of the present system are flagrant, and this grievance of the Collectors of Taxes has existed for a very long time. These men have been very patient, and I think the time has now come when something ought to be done in respect of them. It is said, with some truth, that the annual appointment of these collectors has long been regarded as irksome and a handicapping survival of the early days of the tax, which, in view of its now admitted permanent character, should be abandoned. Taking the great body of the men, they are a very 2157 efficient body of collectors. They have adopted practically every constitutional means of obtaining an amendment of the law in relation to their appointment without success, and this evening we are asking that at any rate some slight improvement shall be made in their status, and that they shall now be appointed during the will and pleasure of the appointing authority. That I suppose takes with it the fact, as with other appointments under similar terms, that they will practically hold office under good behaviour.
This matter has been the subject of correspondence between the association of these collectors and the Secretary to the Treasury, and it is fair to say that the Secretary to the Treasury has written a very sympathetic letter on the 2nd May reviewing the present position of these men, and he has referred to the fact, which is quite true, that the matter, in his opinion, is dependent upon these men being appointed permanently by the Board of Inland Revenue, and in a measure he has sought in this communication to make the matter of the status of these men dependent upon that course being adopted. The Chancellor of the Exchequer may have been present at a meeting of Members of the House when this matter was considered some little time ago, and the view was then taken by a very large number of Members, I think some 100 attended, that it was undesirable for these men's appointments to go to the Board of Inland Revenue, but that they should remain with the General Commissioners. At this time that may well be held to be a disputable point, but I venture to urge on the Chancellor of the Exchequer that that ought not to stand in the way of these men's appointments being better secured. I hope if the Clause be adopted that better terms and conditions will follow, because, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer knows, some of these men who are responsible for many hundreds of thousands of pounds in some districts only receive remuneration of some £900, £1,000 or £1,100 a year. The Clause is simply regarded as a step in the direction which I hope will put them in a better position. As showing the long time this matter has been under discussion and the patience that has been exercised by this body of very efficient servants of the State, I may 2158 say that it was in 1907, and the present Chancellor of the Exchequer headed a deputation to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that year, I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith). When that is remembered, together with the fact that they have done such efficient service, it is not asking too much for this minor step to be taken and these men secured so far as possible in their appointments, and I hope they will attain better terms and conditions, including a pension, which I am sure will not only be for their benefit but for the benefit of the service as a whole.
§ Mr. HANNONThis Amendment seeks to do some measure of justice to a most estimable body of public servants who for some extraordinary reason, owing to the curious anomalies of our public life, have no security in the positions which they hold. Two of these officers of whom I have had personal experience have served for periods of nearly 40 years in the discharge of this responsible duty of extracting revenue from the pockets of the taxpayer. One of these has served for a comparatively small salary, and he pays the cost of his own office and his own elerical establishment, and in doing that has inflicted injury on his own health. The Inland Revenue Authorities desire to get the whole of this service centralised and to bring it under the control of the Inland Revenue itself. The tendency is to eliminate the older men and to bring younger men into the service. I think the Chancellor would be doing a mere act of justice if he were to accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. SNOWDENI have taken an interest in this body of public servants for the last twenty years. It is quite true that I introduced a deputation to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer which put their grievances before him. Everybody who knows much about the actual conditions of the service of these tax collectors knows that the whole case is fundamentally and radically wrong and unsatisfactory. The speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down was concerned with a number of grievances not one of which would be touched in the Amendment before the House. I do not think it would make the slightest difference to security in practice. The men are in practice re-appointed from year to year, and if the Amendment 2159 were accepted it would be within the power of the General Commissioners to dismiss these men if their services were not satisfactory. There is now annual re-appointment unless their conduct has been unsatisfactory. The appointment is renewed each year as a matter of course. This is probably the least of the many grievances from which this class of public servants suffer, and it seems unwise to begin to tinker with a big problem. It may to some extent prejudice the future dealing with the question in a comprehensive manner. I should have no strong objection to the Committee accepting this Amendment, but I do not think it is going to do any good, and it might prejudice the general consideration of the whole question in the future. I am glad the hon. Member has raised this question, and with that expression, and in the hope that in the not distant future the whole question of their position will be considered, I trust that he will withdraw it.
§ Mr. HANNONDoes the right hon. Gentleman give the assurance that these older servants and their interests will be adequately protected within the comprehensive scheme?
§ Mr. SNOWDENI should not have the slightest hesitation in giving that assurance.
§ Mr. D. HERBERTI hope the hon. Member will not withdraw his Amendment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer does not seem to object strongly to it. If it be such a small remedy for removing a small but not a big grievance, surely, if the right hon. Gentleman remain in power, he will not relax his efforts to remedy those larger grievances because one has been removed. The point is that these men wish for this themselves.
§ Mr. SNOWDENThat ignores the most substantial argument, and if we accept it, it would prejudice the consideration of the whole matter.
§ Mr. REMERI hope the hon. Member will press the Amendment, which is desired by the people themselves. The Chancellor of the Exchequer says he has been trying to get this remedied for the last 20 years.
§ Sir HARRY BRITTAINI do not want to press this matter unduly upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I venture to urge the acceptance of this Clause. It has been drafted and put down on behalf of the Association of Collectors of Taxes themselves. Their appointments are annual. They never know where they are. The result is that some of these men have for 30 or 40 years been holding these temporary annual appointments. I do not understand why the Chancellor of the Exchequer says this will prejudice their case. Obviously any further scheme in connection with these men will have to be incorporated in an Act of Parliament, and anything in these words could be varied in any new scheme. I do not wish to press this to a Division unless it be necessary.
§ Mr. GATESMay I say a few words. As a Commissioner of Taxes, I have been called upon every year to make these appointments of men who have been in our service as many as 30 or 40 years, and it seems to many of my colleagues to be an absolute farce. I think they have a case which deserves the sympathetic consideration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. GRAHAMI feel the Committee would like one or two words of additional explanation on our attitude towards this Clause. A week or two ago I saw representatives of the collectors. So the matter can be quite briefly stated. There are about 4,000 of these collectors, of whom 3,200 are appointed by the local Commissioners and about 800 by the Board of Inland Revenue. The Royal Commission on Income Tax in 1919 considered the whole administrative structure of the Inland Revenue for the Income Tax collection, and recommended that this collection should be undertaken by the Board of Inland Revenue, that these collectors should be servants of the Board, and that in larger areas they should be given full-time appointments. I will only state, in conclusion, the present position and show the dangers involved in the acceptance of this Clause. There is the very warmest sympathy for these men and the fullest appreciation of the work they have done. But about 1,300 of these collectors are men who enjoy a remuneration of £25 or less per annum. We considered recently, on their 2161 recommendation, certain proposals of superannuation, but it, must be perfectly obvious to the Committee that you cannot really consider a scheme of superannuation or security of tenure when you are dealing with a large proportion of people who work on the very low basis of remuneration I have stated. My right hon. Friend and I are in perfect sympathy with the claims of these men, but I entirely agree with him that this Amendment could not achieve anything in particular. I am afraid it will mean a difficulty when we come to deal, as we hope to do in the near future, with a proper scheme for these men. I strongly urge upon my hon. Friend that from that point of view it would not be in the interests of the men themselves to press this Clause. I assure the Committee that the interests of the men are under consideration, and will be safeguarded when we come to consider the wider and larger scheme.
§ Mr. HANNONWhat is the intention of the Chancellor? What are his good
§ intentions towards these men? It is all very well to say they will be considered, but they have been considered for 20 years, and nothing has been accomplished.
§ Mr. REMERMay I also ask what is the, position by which they will be prejudiced if this Amendment be accepted?
Mr. GRAHAMThe short point is that there are all kinds of conditions attaching to their appointments, and if this Clause be inserted in the Finance Act this year, it will clearly set up a variation which will mean a difficulty when we come to consider a scheme. In 1921 the scheme aroused widespread controversy. There is the keenest desire to see that these men have justice, and I do not think the hon. Gentleman's Amendment would do that because, in my judgment, it would introduce an unnecessary obligation.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 138; Noes, 172.
2163| Division No. 138.] | AYES. | [1.47 a.m. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Gates, Percy | Owen, Major G. |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. | Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Penny, Frederick George |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Gorman, William | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frame) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Philipson, Mabel |
| Becker, Harry | Greenwood, William (Stockport) | Pielou, D. P. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E. | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Birchall, Mater J. Dearman | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Raine, W. |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Hail, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Rathbone, Hugh R. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Harbord, Arthur | Rees, Sir Beddoe |
| Blundell, F. N. | Harland, A. | Remer, J. R. |
| Bourne, Robert Croft | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Hartington, Marquess of | Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) |
| Briant, Frank | Harvey, C. M. B.(Aberd'n & Kincardne) | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) |
| Briscoe, Captain Richard George | Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury) | Robinson. Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Burman, J. B. | Hindle, F. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Howard, Hn. D.(Cumberland, Northrn.) | Sandeman. A. Stewart |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Hughes, Collingwood | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Savery, S. S. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Kay, Sir R. Newbakld | Shepperson. E. W. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Keens, T. | Simon, E. D.(Manchester, Withington) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Cope, Major William | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Lamb, J. Q. | Snowier-Clay, Lieut.-Coloner H. H. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Spero, Dr. G. E. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lumley, L. R. | Starmer, Sir Charles |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Steel, Samuel Strang |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Deans, Richard Storry | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Tattersall, J. L. |
| Dixey, A. C. | Morrison-Bell, MajorSir A. C. (Honiton) | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Duckworth, John | Morse, W. E. | Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Moulton, Major Fletcher | Tichfield, Major the Marquess of |
| England, Colonel A. | Murrell, Frank | Ward, G (Leicester, Bosworth) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Watson, Sir F. (Padsey and Otley) |
| Ferguson, H. | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Wells, S. R. |
| FitzRoy, Captain Rt. Hon. Edward A. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh | Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H. |
| Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. | Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley) | Williams, A. (York, W. R., Sowerby) |
| Williams, Maj. A.S. (Kent, Sevenoaks) | Wise, Sir Fredric | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) | Wragg, Herbert | Sir Kingsley Wood and Mr. |
| Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. | Hanon. |
| NOES. | ||
| Ackroyd, T. R. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan) |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. William | Henderson, W. W. (Milddlesex, Enfield) | Perry, S. F. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hillary, A. E. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hirst, G. H. | Phillipps, Vivian |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hobhouse, A. L. | Potts, John S. |
| Attlee, Major Clement R. | Hodges, Frank | Purcell, A. A. |
| Baker, Walter | Hoffman, P. C. | Raffety, F. W. |
| Banton, G. | Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton) | Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford |
| Barclay, R. Noton | Hudson, J. H. | Rea, W. Russell |
| Barnes, A. | Isaacs, G. A. | Richards, R. |
| Batey, Joseph | Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Birkett, W. N. | Jewson, Dorothea | Romeril, H. G. |
| Bonwick, A | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Royle, C. |
| Broad, F. A. | Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) | Scurr, John |
| Bromfield, William | Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) | Seely. H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern) |
| Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) | Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Sexton, James |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Buckle, J. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Sherwood, George Henry |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Clarke, A. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Climie, R. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartiepools) | Snell, Harry |
| Compton, Joseph | Kedward, R. M. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Comyns-Carr, A. S. | Kirkwood, D. | Spence, R. |
| Costello, L. W. J. | Lansbury, George | Spoor, B. G. |
| Cove, W. G. | Laverack, F. J. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Law, A. | Stranger, Innes Harold |
| Crittall, V. G. | Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North) | Sturrock, J. Leng |
| Darbishire, C. W. | Lawson, John James | Sunlight, J. |
| Davies, David (Montgomery) | Leach, W. | Terrington, Lady |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lee, F. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) |
| Dickie, Captain J. P. | Lessing, E. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Dickson, T. | Lintield, F. C. | Thornton, Maxwell R. |
| Dodds, S. R. | Loverseed, J. F. | Thurtle, E. |
| Dukes, C. | Lunn, William | Toole, J. |
| Duncan, C. | McEntee, V. L. | Tout, W. J. |
| Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern) | Macfadyen, E. | Vivian, H. |
| Egan, W. H. | Mackinder, W. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Falconer, J. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Foot, Isaac | Mansel, Sir Courtenay | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | March, S. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Marley, James | Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C. |
| Gillett, George M. | Martin, F. (Aberdeen & Kinc'dine, E.) | Whiteley, W. |
| Gosling, Harry | Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton) | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) | Middleton, G. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) | Mills, J. E. | Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Mond, H. | Williams, T. (York Don Valley) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Morris, R. H. | Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kennington) |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) | Willison, H. |
| Hall, Fredk. (Yorks, Normanton) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Mosley, Oswald | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hardie, George D. | Murray, Robert | Windsor, Walter |
| Harris, Percy A. | Naylor, T. E. | Wright, W. |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Nixon, H. | Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick) |
| Hastings, Sir Patrick | O'Grady, Captain James | |
| Haycock, A. W. | Paling, W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hayday, Arthur | Palmer, E. T. | Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Warne. |
| Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South) |