§ Captain THORPEI beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to facilitate the discharge of the duties of His Majesty's Secretaries of State or other Ministers.If I may, I will read the short Clause which is the effective Clause of this Bill. The Bill provides, by Clause 1, thatWhere any Member of the House of Lords or of the House of Commons holds office as fl Secretary of State or other Minister to His Majesty, in his capacity as Secretary or Minister, and for the effective and proper discharge of his duties as such Secretary or Minister he may, if he be a Member of the House of Lords, address the Members of the House of Commons in their place and answer therein questions in respect of and concerning the duties of his office; and, similarly, he may, if he be a Member of the House of Commons, so address the Members of the House of Lords and answer in that place all such questions as aforesaid.The saving Clause which appears to be necessary is as follows:Provided that no such Secretary ca. Minister shall so address the Members of the House of Lords or of the House of Commons, or shall answer such questions as aforesaid, except under such Rules and Orders of Procedure as the Members aforesaid may consider needful for the protection of and in accordance with the established privileges of their respective Houses.Nothing in this Act shall diminish the existing rights and privileges of either House of Parliament except in so far as has been set out hereinbefore.This is a form of constitutional practice which is already largely in vogue in the 2067 Constitutions of the Latin peoples. It is a constitutional practice in France, Spain, Belgium and our own Colonies, and in the Assemblies of the Union of South Africa. The Bill strives to remedy what, appears to its promoters to be a striking weakness in our present constitutional practice. Under the present system, at the present moment, we have no less than six Ministers of State in the House of Lords. In the course of their duties, they owe direct responsibility to the Members of this House. In the pursuit of those duties, from time to time they have to enunciate policies of great and wide importance, and under the present system they are represented in this House, let me say, by extremely able men, but not by men who were chosen for the office or who owe direct responsibility to the people. Hon. Members will remember occasions on which they have prayed for the head of a Minister in the other place on a hypothetical charger in this House. The criticisms and suggestions which are given to them in their office are merely passed on the next morning by print or by word of mouth. They live apart from us. I think I shall not he incorrect if I remind the House that since 1910 it has been the expressed desire of every party to reform the House of Lords, and that reform is always intended to take the line of making it more democratic. Promises and hopes in political life are frequently deferred, and, anticipating that no such step will be taken, at any rate, in this Session, the promoters of this Bill suggest that by this short Measure we may do something to bring the Ministers who are responsible to the people down here or to send them up to the other Chamber in order that they may learn directly from the mouthpieces of the people what the people want.There will be many criticisms in practice, but the Bill provides that when Noble Lords come to visit us or when we go to visit them proper provision will be made under the Standing Orders of each Chamber, I almost say for the behaviour, but at any rate for the position and conditions under which these Members speak. The promoters believe that such a Measure can do no harm. They believe that by bringing Ministers into this 2068 Chamber—[Interruption]. I am sure that my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Kirkwood) who interrupts me will be the first when he is in another place to take advantage of this Measure, and, anticipating a contingency so remote but so obviously practicable, I look forward to the welcome which that hon. Member will receive. In the firm belief that this. [...] will do a great deal to command and increase confidence among the people for their constitutional Chambers, that it will do Ministers no harm to be told directly what our views are, and that thereby we shall have a more practicable system and a system under which Ministers—I refer to the preamble—will have greater facility in discharging the responsibilities of their office, I ask the House to give me leave to introduce it.
§ Mr. PRINGLErose—
§ Mr. SPEAKERDoes the hon. Member rise to oppose the Motion?
§ Mr. PRINGLEYes, Sir. When I saw the Order on the Paper in the name of my hon. and gallant Friend, I was in some doubt as to the exact object. I wondered whether his intention in proposing this Bill was to anticipate the probable difficulties of a future Labour Government by assuring its Members of the right to speak in another place, or whether it was to relieve the present and very temporary embarrassment of the existing Government. The speech to which we have just listened indicates that what the hon. and gallant Member has in mind is no great constitutional change, but simply a means of relieving the embarrassment which the present Ministry undoubtedly feel. My hon. and gallant Friend spoke naturally in commendation of the virtues, the abilities, and the brains of the understudies who appear from time to time on that Front Bench. The House had some experience the other night of the result of an understudy. It is true that his chief is here in person, but, even under these conditions, the Government was reduced to a rather embarrassing position. Because the present Government has constituted itself, partly from necessity, to such a large extent of Members of the House of Lords, it seems to me to be no reason why Parliament should legislate for giving these Gentlemen, distinguished as they are, an opportunity of speaking in this House.
2069 We have at the present time what has been unknown certainly for 40 years; we have four Secretaries of State in another place, and, in addition, we also have the Secretary for Scotland in another place. That is flouting the democracy of this House, and the Bill, leave for the introduction of which is now asked, would be merely a means of sanctioning such an abuse of our constitutional system. There is, as it is, a provision on the Statute Book indicating that the rights of another place should be safeguarded, because it is provided that at least one Secretary of State should be a Member of the House of Lords. That is a sop to the House of Lords. Why should we give them this other sop of allowing Noble Lords to come here and talk on various subjects and answer different questions? There are enough on the Front Bench as it is; and it would be a pity that the somewhat novel authority which the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) enjoys, should be in any way interfered with. The same equally applies to the Under-Secretary of State for War (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness) and the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Ormsby-Gore). Would it not be a tremendous loss to this House, for example, if we were not allowed to hear the hon. Gentleman who represents the Colonies, but had to submit to the
§ saporific eloquence of the Duke of Devonshire? I do not think that would be an improvement even in the interests of the Government.
§ After all, why should we legislate for a few weeks or a few months? The order has gone forth that this Ministry's days are numbered. Has Mr. Garvin not said so, and not only Mr. Garvin, but Lord Riddell, the proprietor of that highly popular and intellectual publication, the "News of the World "; and, I believe, also the "Sunday Times," the "Sunday Times," mark you, after the editor had only two nights before dined with five Cabinet Ministers? If you have such unanimity in the most influential organs of the Sunday Press as to the longevity of His Majesty's Ministers, I think it absolutely unnecessary to give leave for the introduction of this Bill, and I hope, in view of the circumstances which I have now disclosed to my hon. and gallant Friend—I believe for the first time—that he will not persist. in asking for leave to do so.
§
Question put,
That leave he given to bring in a Bill to facilitate the discharge of the duties of His Majesty's Secretaries of State or other Ministers.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 100 Noes, 244.
2071| Division No, 100.] | AYES. | [4.10 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Gould, James C. | Remnant, Sir James |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) | Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) | Reynolds, W. G. W. |
| Astbury, Lieut-Com. Frederick W. | Greenwood, William (Stockport) | Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) |
| Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) | Halstead, Major D. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) |
| Banner, Sir John S. Harmood | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Bella[...]rs, Commander Carlyon W. | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Harrison, F. C. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Hawke, John Anthony | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Hay, Major T. w. (Norfolk, South) | Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'ss) |
| Bruford, R. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle. E.) | Sparkes, H. W. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank | Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Hughes, Collingwood | Stewart, Gershorn (Wirral) |
| Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth |
| Butcher, Sir John George | Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) | Sturrock, J. Leng |
| Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) | Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Lumley, L. R. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Churchman, sir Arthur | Manville. Edward | Titchfield, Marquess of |
| Coates, Lt.-Col. Norman | Margesson, H. D. R. | Tubbs, S. W. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Mason, Lieut.-Col. C K. | Turton, Edmund Russborough |
| Cope, Major William | Mercer, Colonel H. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. p. |
| Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. | Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) | Wallace, Captain E. |
| Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) |
| Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) | Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) | Wells, S. R. |
| Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John | Willey, Arthur |
| Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) | Pease. William Edwin | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) |
| Doyle, N. Grattan | Penny, Frederick George | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Du Pre, Colonel William Baring | Perring, William George | Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward |
| Ednam, Viscount | Philipson, Hilton | |
| Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. | Preston, Sir W. R. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray | Privett, F. J. | Captain Thorpe and Lieut. |
| Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. | Rae, Sir Henry N. | Commander Kenworthy |
| Gilbert. James Daniel | Reid, Capt. A.S.C.(Warrington) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, D | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | O'Grady, Captain James |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Oliver, George Harold |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. William | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) | Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) | Paling, W. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) |
| Allen, Lieut.-Col. sir William James | Harbord, Arthur | Pattinson, R. (Grantham) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. | Hardie, George D. | Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Hartshorn, Vernon | Pennefather, De Fonblanque |
| Attlee, C. R. | Harvey, Major S. E. | Phillipps, Vivian |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Hayday, Arthur | Pilditch, Sir Philip |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh) | Potts, John S. |
| Batey, Joseph | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. |
| Bonn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Raeburn, Sir William H. |
| Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield) | Herriotts, J. | Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel |
| Berkeley, Captain Reginald | Hewett, Sir J. P. | Rees, Sir Beddoe |
| Berry, Sir George | Hiley, Sir Ernest | Richards, R. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Hinds, John | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Bonwick, A. | Hirst, G. H. | Ritson, J. |
| Bowdler, W. A. | Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) | Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.) |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Briant, Frank | Hopkins, John W. W. | Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Houfton, John Plowright | Rose, Frank H. |
| Broad, F. A. | Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) | Russell, William (Bolton) |
| Bromfield, William | Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. | Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney |
| Brotherton, J. | Hudson, Capt. A. | Salter, Dr. A. |
| Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) | Hume, G. H. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) | Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. | Scrymgeour, E, |
| Buckle, J. | Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) | Sexton, James |
| Burgess, S. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) |
| Burnie, Major J, (Bootle) | Irving, Dan | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Buxton, Charles (Accrington) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Shinwell, Emanuel |
| Cairns, John | Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. | Jephcott, A. R. | Simpson, J. Hope |
| Cautley, Henry strother | Jodrell Sir Neville Paul | Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Sinclair, Sir A. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) | Smith, T. (Pontefract) |
| Chapp[...]e. W. A. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Snell, Harry |
| Clarke, Sir E. C. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Spender-Clay. Lieut.-Colonel H. H. |
| Collins, Pat (Walsall) | Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) | Steel, Major S. Strang |
| Collison, Levi | Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) | Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Kenyon, Barnet | Stephen, Campbell |
| Crook. C. W. (East Ham, North) | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Thomas, Rt, Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) | Kirkwood, D. | Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Lamb, J. Q- | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Duffy, T. Gavan | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Duncan, C. | Lansbury, George | Thornton, M. |
| Dunnico, H. | Leach, W. | Trevelyan, C. P. |
| Ede, James Chuter | Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) | Turner, Ben |
| Edge, Captain Sir William | Linfield, F. C. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Edmonds, G. | Lorlmer, H. D. | Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) | Warne, G. H. |
| Ellis, R. G. | Lunn, William | Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) | Lyle-Samuel, Alexander | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) |
| England, Lieut.-Colonel A. | McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. | Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) | Webb, Sidney |
| Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) | M'Entee, V. L. | Wedgwood, Colonel Jos[...]ah C. |
| Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) | McLaren, Andrew | Weir, L. M. |
| Fairbairn, R. R. | McNeill. Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. | Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) | Weston, Colonel John Wakefield |
| Fildes, Henry | March, s. | Wheatley. J. |
| Foot, Isaac | Marshall, Sir Arthur H. | White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, E.) | Whiteley, W. |
| Furness, G. J. | Maxton, James | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Williams. Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Goff, Sir R. Park | Moore. Major-General Sir Newton J. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Gosling, Harry | Moreing, Captain Algernon H. | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th.S.) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Morris, Harold | Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) |
| Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Winterton, Earl |
| Gray, Frank (Oxford) | Mosley, Oswald | Wintringham, Margaret |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Muir, John W. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Murchison, C. K. | Wood. Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Murnin, H. | Wright, W. |
| Grigg, Sir Edward | Murray, hon. A.C. (Aberdeen) | Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) |
| Groves, T. | Murray, John (Leeds, West) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Grundy. T. W. | Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) | |
| Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) | Nall, Major Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Newbold, J. T. W. | Mr. Pringle and Captain Viscount |
| Guthrie, Thomas Maule | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Curzon |
| Gwynne, Rupert S. | Nichol, Robert |
Question put, and agreed to.