§ Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 71A.
§ [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision with respect to the cost of medical benefit and to the expenses of the administration of benefits under the Acts relating to National Health Insurance, to repeal Section two and to amend Section twenty-nine of the National Health Insurance Act, 1918, and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient to authorise the amount which, under the said Act, will, on the next valuation of an approved society, become payable, out of moneys provided by Parliament, to the society in respect of the sums paid out of the benefit fund of the society, in pursuance of the said Act, towards the cost of medical benefit and the expenses of the administration of benefits, to be calculated as if those sums were increased by interest thereon from the date of payment at the rate prescribed for the purposes of paragraph (c) of Sub-
1870
section (1) of Section fifty-six of the National insurance Act, 1911"—(King's Recommendation signified).—[Mr. Hilton Young.]
§ 12 M.
§ Sir F. BANBURYOn a point of Order. This Resolution and the Resolution which appeared last week are in somewhat unusual form. They appear under Standing Order No. 71A, which I hold in my hand, and which says:"King's recommendation to be signified." I may be wrong, but I never remember Financial Resolutions being taken in this form before. There has always been a Committee set up—at which the Assent has been signified—and then on the following day, or the day after, the Committee stage has been taken. Standing Order 71A says:
Notwithstanding any Standing Order or custom of the House, if notice is given of a Resolution authorising; expenditure in connection with a Bill, the House may, if the Recommendation of the Crown is signified thereto. …So far as I know, the Recommendation of the Crown has not been signified, and the Order says it is to be signified. It seems to me that not only is this an unusual course, but it is contrary to Standing Order 71A, which, as far as I know, has never been carried out, and has practically not been used. I should like to know, first of all, whether the King's Recommendation has been signified, when it was signified, and who signified it. I should also like to know why it is that we have departed from the ordinary custom and have taken the Resolution in an unusual form.
Mr. HILTON YOUNGAs the Resolution appears in my name, possibly I may say a word on the point of Order in order to explain the course adopted. As the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) is aware, Standing Order 71A says:
Notwithstanding any Standing Order or custom of the House, if notice is given of a Resolution authorising expenditure in connection with a Bill, the House may, if the Recommendation of the Crown is signified thereto, at any time after such notice appears on the Paper, resolve itself into Committee to consider the Resolution, and the Resolution, when reported, may be considered forthwith by the House.The only difference between this and the procedure which the right hon. Baronet found more desirable is one of the convenience of the House. Under this form of procedure the necessity for the 1871 formal step of the setting-up Resolution is avoided, and instead of that, under this Standing Order, the Resolution has to appear on the Paper so that the House has notice of it. Then, after it has appeared on the Paper, the House can go straight into Committee on the Money Resolution. That, of course, has this convenience—it avoids what has become a mere formality, namely, the setting-up Resolution, on which, as the right hon. Baronet is well aware, there can be neither discussion nor division. It is, therefore, quite valueless to the House, but what is of value to the House is that it should have notice of the terms of the Resolution. The purpose of the procedure under Standing Order 71A is to avoid the trouble of a setting-up Resolution but, to give notice to the House of the actual terms.
§ Sir F. BANBURYWhere does the King's Recommendation come in?
Mr. YOUNGI had forgotten that point. The King's Recommendation was signified in the usual manner a few moments ago by the Minister of Health. That is the customary procedure.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI did not see the right hon. Gentleman doing it.
§ Sir A. MONDI did so according to the usual form.
§ Sir F. BANBURYIn any case the Financial Secretary tells us that this procedure avoids the setting up of the Resolution, which is useless because it allows neither debate nor division. That is quite true, but unless I am very much mistaken in the case of the ordinary Money Resolution we cannot take the Committee stage and the Report stage on the same day. Under this procedure we can do so. Apparently it is within the rules to take a Money Resolution in Committee at 12 midnight, and to take the Report stage immediately afterwards. That may be for the convenience of the Government, but it is certainly not for the convenience of the House.
§ The CHAIRMANI am afraid the usual vigilance of the right hon. Baronet was for once at fault some three years ago when this Standing Order was passed.
§ Captain W. BENNI listened with great interest to the explanation of the 1872 Financial Secretary and, with respect, I venture to say that he was wrong on every point with which he dealt. He said that in these cases, the question put from the Chair, that the House resolve itself into Committees could not be divided upon. I submit that any question put from the. Chair can be divided upon. He also said that it was a coincidence to out the Resolution on the Paper under the recommendation of the Committee on National Expenditure—
§ The CHAIRMANI understood the hon. and gallant Member intended to raise a point of Order. He is not in order in discussing the merits of the Standing Order. He may discuss the Resolution before the Committee or raise a point of Order, but it does not appear to me lie is doing either.
§ Captain BENNI was proposing, before asking the Minister of Health a question, to say something in reference to the procedure under which the Resolution is brought forward. I submit I am entitled, in passing, to refer to the financial methods adopted by the Government as illustrated by the way in which the Resolution is being submitted.
§ The CHAIRMANIf the hon. and gallant Member goes into that an unlimited opportunity will be given for debating all sorts of points of procedure. The hon. and gallant Member must confine himself to the merits of the Resolution unless he has a point of Order to raise.
§ Mr. N. MACLEANOn a point of Order. As there seems to be a question in dispute, would it not be in order to move to report Progress, so that we may discuss the method in which the Government have brought the Resolution before us?
§ The CHAIRMANIt would be in order to move to report Progress. As to whether or not the arguments used by the hon. Member in supporting that Motion, would be in order or not, I must wait, and see.
§ Mr. MACLEANI beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I am not going to use any arguments. I prefer to leave that to hon. Members who have been longer associated with the 1873 House and have taken a greater interest in the framing and the interpretation of the Standing Orders. It is in order to overcome the difficulty that has arisen in regard to the way in which the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) is placed, in being pulled up to order by you, Air. Chairman, putting him entirely out of order in discussing the question, that I move to report Progress. If there be a matter of dispute as to the question being brought. forward legitimately under this Standing Order, I submit that Members are entitled to know thepros andcons, and I should like to know exactly how we are going to be situated if, on a question that is in doubt, the Government are able to bring into this House at such short notice a Resolution that they can put before the Committee and also bring up again almost
§ immediately on Report. I want to get the matter settled beyond all doubt.
§ The Chairman, being of opinion that the Motion was an abuse of the Rules of the House, rose to put the Question thereupon forthwith.
§ Captain BENNMr. Hope, I should like—
§ The CHAIRMANI will put this Question at once, under Standing Order 22.
§ Captain BENNBut I—
§ The CHAIRMANI have every discretion in this matter, and the Standing Order is perfectly clear.
§ Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 23; Noes, 111.
1875| Division No. 128.] | AYES. | [12.15 a.m. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hirst, G. H. | Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) |
| Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Sutton, John Edward |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Kiley, James Daniel | Swan, J. E. |
| Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) | Lawson, John James | Thomas, Brig.-Gen. sir O. (Anglesey) |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Lunn, William | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.) | |
| Gillis, William | Raffan, Peter Wilson | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Halls, Walter | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Mr. Neil Maclean and Mr. Foot. |
| Hartshorn, Vernon | Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Amery, Leopold C. M. S. | Forrest, Walter | Neal, Arthur |
| Armstrong, Henry Bruce | Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot | Newman, Sir R, H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Atkey, A. R. | Fraser, Major Sir Keith | Parker, James |
| Baird, Sir John Lawrence | Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham | Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Gilbert, James Daniel | Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John | Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike |
| Barlow, Sir Montague | Goff, Sir R. Park | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Barnston, Major Harry | Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Barrand, A. R. | Greenwood, William (Stockport) | Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray |
| Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- | Hallwood, Augustine | Rankin, Captain James Stuart |
| Brassey, H. L. C. | Hamilton, Major C. G. C. | Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Remer, J. R. |
| Bruton, Sir James | Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) | Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) |
| Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. | Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) | Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) |
| Casey, T. W. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) |
| Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) | Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund |
| Clough, Sir Robert | Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) | Kidd, James | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Cope, Major William | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur |
| Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. | Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) | Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) |
| Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) | Lindsay, William Arthur | Seddon, J. A. |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Lloyd-Greame, Sir P. | Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) |
| Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) | Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) |
| Doyle, N. Grattan | Losaby, Captain C. E. | Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) |
| Edge, Captain Sir William | Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith) | Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. |
| Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Sugden, W. H. |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) | Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) | Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) |
| Evans, Ernest | Marriott, John Arthur Ransome | Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. | Mason, Robert | Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) |
| Falcon, Captain Michael | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz | Watson, Captain John Bertrand |
| Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray | Morden, Col. W. Grant | Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. | Moreing, Captain Algernon H. | Williams, C. (Tavistock) |
| Ford, Patrick Johnston | Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh) | Windsor, Viscount |
| Winterton, Earl | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Wise, Frederick | Young, E. H. (Norwich) | Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy. |
| Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) | Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ Captain BENNOn a point of Order. The hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) moved to report Progress on the ground that it was an abuse of Standing Order 71A that financial matters should be hurried through. You, Mr. Chairman, put the Motion without permitting any Amendment or Debate. May I ask whether you did that under the Standing Order which states that you may put such a Motion if you are of opinion it is an abuse of the Rules of the House?
§ The CHAIRMANThat was the ground on which I acted. The hon. Member who moved to report Progress said he proposed it, but did not propose to put forward any arguments.
§ Captain BENNIt is not conceivable, I take it, that this extremely intelligible Resolution is to be allowed to speak for itself, and the Committee and Report stages hurried through at half an hour after midnight without any account of how much is involved or what the meaning of it all is. I think that would be really treating the House of Commons with even less respect than even this Government is wont to show to it. That being so, I do urge the Minister of Health to make clear, in that lucid manner of which he is a master, exactly what it is we are voting by these dozen lines that are in this Resolution on the Order Paper.
§ The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir A. Mond)It was through no lack of courtesy on my part that I did not rise. I thought hon. Members would probably want to ask questions to which I could reply. I shall endeavour to oblige my hon. and gallant Friend by very briefly explaining the purport of this Resolution. It will be remembered that the other day we gave a Second Reading to the Bill and the Financial Resolution is necessary before arrangements can be made with the Treasury. I pointed out on 24th May that under the present proposal the money paid in medical benefit and coming from the funds of the approved societies will be treated in the general account in the same way as any other benefit payment, but it will carry automatically with it the two-ninths of State grant which 1876 would therefore be permanently lost to societies unless a Financial Resolution of this kind were passed. Under the provisions of the Bill this State grant will be paid after April, 1925, in respect of £3,400,000 which will be taken out of the insurance fund during the next twenty-one months for the relief of the Exchequer. I hope that is clear. The money if left in the fund would have accumulated at compound interest. We do not want the approved societies to suffer and therefore a Financial Resolution is necessary. The upshot will be a State grant of £180,000 a year for five years beginning on the 1st of April, 1925. That means altogether about £900,000 and there will be about £140,000 in respect of interest.
§ Sir GODFREY COLLINSAs I understand, under the terms of this Resolution the sum of £140,000 will be paid from State funds to the approved societies at the next valuation. I want to know if there will be a Supplementary Estimate this year for that amount?
§ Sir A. MONDNo, not for that amount. It will take five years to accumulate.
§ Sir G. COLLINSWill this particular Financial Resolution lead to a Supplementary Estimate? Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any assurance on that point? I was hoping that the right hon. Gentleman might be able to tell us definitely whether a Supplementary Estimate will be brought forward daring the ensuing year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has already assured the Committee that the provision for Supplementary Estimates was amply covered already, but the amount to date is very considerable, and I hope we shall have some further assurance on this point.
The right hon. Gentleman will recollect that this particular Resolution deals with the administration of approved societies, and that last year he held out some hope that the Insurance Acts would be consolidated. Such a consolidation would simplify the administration of approved societies, which are administered partly out of money provided by Parliament and partly out of money provided by the insured persons themselves.
1877 The administration expenses of the National Insurance Acts are heavy. Last year the right hon Gentleman had hopes that this year he would be able to bring in a Bill to consolidate the Insurance Acts. Can we have some assurance that those hopes will mature in the course of the present year? The administration of the different Insurance Acts would be simplified thereby, and the amount to be set apart for administration expenses would be reduced, with the result that not only would there be a saving of money to the National Exchequer, but that larger benefits would be paid to the insured persons.
§ Mr. AMMONAlter the very lucid statement by the Minister of Health, clarified by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, I should like to put this question, bluntly: Are we to understand that this is really to enable the accumulated funds of the societies to be raided in order to provide money?
§ Sir A. MONDNot at all; for the very opposite purpose. But for this Financial Resolution the approved societies would lose something like £900,000 and the Treasury would be that much better off. In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn), I find no Supplementary Estimate will be required, because no payment will have to be made before 1925. As to the question of the hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins), I quite remember the discussion we had, and that matter of consolidation is being very carefully studied at the present time; but I cannot say whether it will be possible to introduce legislation to deal with the subject.
§ Mr. N. MACLEANI wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the idea of this Resolution is to repeal, as it says in the Resolution, Section 2 of the Act of 1918? Does that refer to the Women's Equalisation Fund, or to what does it refer? I have a copy of that Act, and Section 2 refers to the Women's Equalisation Fund. I will read it to hon. Members:
Then you have also a reference to Section 29 in the same Act. Can the right hon. Gentleman explain Section 2?
- "(1) There shall be established under the control of the National Health Insurance Joint Committee a fund to be called the Women's Equalisation Fund and to be applied in assisting approved societies in meeting their liabilities in respect of the sickness claims of women.
1878 - (2) There shall in each year be charged on the Women's Equalisation Fund and distributed among approved societies in manner provided by a scheme to be made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, with the approval of the Treasury, such sum, not exceeding eight shillings, in respect of each of the total number (calculated in the prescribed manner) of married women who are members of approved societies and who are employed contributors, as may be ascertained in accordance with the said scheme.
- (3) Subject as hereinafter provided, there shall, in respect of each year, be carried to the Women's Equalisation Fund out of moneys provided by Parliament such sum as will suffice to meet the charges thereon: Provided that the suns to be tarried to the Fund in respect of each of the years nineteen hundred and thirteen, nineteen hundred and fourteen, nineteen hundred and fifteen, and nineteen hundred and sixteen, shall, instead of being provided as aforesaid, be provided out of the moneys voted by Parliament before the commencement of this Act in aid of the provision of sickness benefit for women and in so far as the moneys so voted are insufficient to meet the aggregate charges on the fund in respect of those four years shall be provided out of the moneys applicable towards discharging the liabilities of the insurance Commissioners to approved societies in respect of reserve values.
- (4) All sums distributed among societies under this Section shall be available for the payment of benefits, and shall, for the purposes of Section three of the principal Act, be deemed to have been derived from contributions made in respect of contributors, notwithstanding that they are derived in whole or in part from moneys provided by Parliament."
§ Sir A. MONDOn a point of Order. There is nothing in the Financial Resolution dealing with Section 2.
§ Mr. MACLEANMay I draw your attention to what it states here in the Financial Resolution—
to repeal Section two and to amend Section twenty-nine.
§ Sir A. MONDThis Financial Resolution merely recites the fact. It is the Bill which will repeal Section 2. The Resolution merely states that it is expedient to authorise the amount which, under the said Act, becomes payable out of the moneys payable by Parliament. That has no relation to Section 2.
§ The CHAIRMANThe Resolution sets out that it is expedient to do certain things for the purpose of any Act of the present Session, and by way of definition 1879 of that Act—which is, of course, at present a Bill—it mentions Section 2 and Section 29 of the National Health Insurance Act, 1918. How far it is in order to go into detail about those two Sections I am not quite clear. If the right hon. Gentleman says these two Sections are only introduced for technical reasons, and that the operative part of the Resolution has nothing to do with it, I shall not allow any further discussion.
§ Sir A. MONDThat was my point. The repeal of these Sections is merely declaratory of the purposes of the Bill. It is a Financial Resolution. This has no connection with the Women's Fund.
§ The CHAIRMANAfter that declaration by the right hon. Gentleman, I think it will not be in order to discuss those two Sections. It will be in order to discuss them on the Bill.
§ Mr. MACLEANI think it will be within your recollection that I asked the right hon. Gentleman who is in charge of the Resolution, what Section 2 meant? He seemed to be in doubt about it.
§ Sir A. MONDI can tell the hon. Member all about Section 2—we discussed it a long time on Second Reading, when the hon. Member apparently was not present—but I do not think it is in order to discuss it now.
§ Mr. MACLEANI am talking about what this particular Financial Resolution refers to.
§ The CHAIRMANIt is quite clear that the hon. Member cannot discuss the references. After the explanation of the 1880 right hon. Gentleman, it is now quite clear that the reference to the two Sections is merely for the purpose of defining the Bill in respect of which this Resolution is passed; but the Resolution itself does not affect these two Clauses at all, and therefore it cannot be in order to pursue the matter.
§ Mr. MACLEANIs the purpose of this Financial Resolution not in relation to these two particular Sections of the National Health Insurance Act, 1918? I f it is not in connection with them, what is the use of referring in a Financial Resolution to two Sections of a particular Act? The Resolution must have something to do with those two Sections. What is the use of the Committee being referred to them? I put that as a point of Order.
§ The CHAIRMANIt is quite clear that the bringing in of these two Sections is merely, as it were, to define the Bill. But the actual Resolution itself has no reference to these particular Sections, and I have already ruled that they cannot be put.
§ Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
§ The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
§ It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Monday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
§ Adjourned at Ten minutes before One o'Clock.