§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI beg to move,
That leave be given to introduce a Bill to prevent the application of public money to vivisection experiments.This is a Bill which I claim is a practical attempt at economy, and its object is to prevent the spending of public 2199 money on vivisection experiments. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent vivisection experiments being continued at the hands of any learned societies or others who provide the money, but in these times I do not think it is right that public money should be granted for this purpose, especially as it must come in part from persons who have scruples against vivisection. The sum of money, I believe, is substantial, though I have not been been able to get the actual figures. Before the War the amount of money spent on medical research was round about £60,000 a year. It is now over £120,000, of which a considerable sum, I understand, is spent on these experiments. I believe the figures are round about £30,000 or £40,000. I think that is money which could well be saved at the present time, and I hope I shall have the support of the House in introducing this very simple and very short Bill. There is talk of more money being demanded for these experiments, and the salaries which are being paid to the researchers, all of whom, of course, are not employed in vivisection, though a good many are, come alone to £38,000 a year. That is a very substantial amount, and I believe it could be saved without any harm to the body politic. It will not prevent a single vivisection experiment which is necessary because the learned societies who think it is necessary will undoubtedly be able to supply the funds to enable the experiments to be carried on.
Dr. MURRAYI do not know whether it is a breach of the traditions of the House, but I do not know that there is much harm in mentioning the fact that my hon. and gallant Friend told me before I came into the House that he would not like me to be here at a quarter to four o'clock. He usually likes a large audience when he is speaking and I thought there was something suspicious in the suggestion so I inquired and discovered that he was going to attempt to introduce this Bill. In a sense I am very glad that he has introduced it. I am always so impressed with his almost unchallengeable wisdom upon every other subject that I am glad to discover that he is human after all and sometimes he is wrong upon public questions of this sort. It is comforting for the ordinary Member who 2200 sometimes makes mistakes in public policy to know that my hon. and gallant Friend, like Homer, occasionally nods too. This is a really flank attack upon experimental research. I should have expected a frontal attack judging from my hon. and gallant Friend's usual methods. It would have been more frank and candid if he had introduced a Bill abolishing all experimental research of this kind. I dislike the word vivisection and prefer experimental research. My hon. and gallant Friend gave as his principal reason that there conscientious objectors to experimental research and therefore they should not be taxed for experimental research of that sort. I did not discover that he brought in a Bill to prevent any public money being wasted upon the Navy or the Army because there are conscientious objectors who will be taxed for, as they say, killing other people. The position is quite the same. If he would like to be consistent he ought also to have included in his Bill that no public money should be spent upon the Army or upon the Navy. He did not discuss the merits of experimental research. There are two or three reasons which I should like to give why public money of all monies should be spent upon experimental research. Vivisection, as it is called, has been the means of advancing medical research within the last 30 or 40 years to an extraordinary degree. There is, for instance, the surgery of the brain. You cannot experiment upon the human brain. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] I did hear of an Englishman who suggested that a surgical operation should be made upon a Scotsman's head under certain conditions, but although the suggestion has been made the experiment has never been carried out and therefore no Scotsman has ever got a glimmer of a sense of humour. But since research experiments have been made in the matter of the brain, some people suggest that Scotsmen have acquired a sense of humour. I do not know whether it is due to those experiments or not. Experiments upon animals have been the cause of a big progress in research of the brain, and that was of great use in the late War and saved thousands of lives. It is therefore a cause for which public money should be spent and spent much more liberally than it is at the present time. Take the case of diphtheria. How many lives have been saved by the 2201 knowledge gained by experiments in connection with anti-toxin? Surely that is an object for the spending of public money. One of the most recent advances in medical science has been due to experimental research in connection with the pituitary gland at the base of the brain. Without these experiments progress could not have been made, and in cases of shock after wounds in the War thousands of lives were saved. In another department, with which this House always shows sympathy, namely, obstetrics and women in labour, a series of experiments has saved more lives of women and children in one of the biggest crises of their lives than any other thing I know.
§ Mr. STANTONGive us proof.
Dr. MURRAYI am just giving these three examples as having been of great benefit to this country, to the world, and to humanity.
§ Mr. STANTONQuestion.
Dr. MURRAYI cannot conceive any object on which public money could be better spent than in the promotion of experimental research. Therefore, I object to this Bill being introduced.
§ Question put, "That leave be given to bring in the Bill to prevent the application of public money to vivisection experiments."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 102; Noes, 170.
2203| Division No. 101.] | AYES. | [4.5 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. William | Halls, Walter | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Hancock, John George | Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) |
| Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. | Hartshorn, Vernon | Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) |
| Banton, George | Hayday, Arthur | Rose, Frank H. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) | Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) |
| Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) | Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) | Shaw, Thomas (Preston) |
| Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) | Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank | Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Hirst, G. H. | Spencer, George A. |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Hodge, Rt. Hon. John | Stanton, Charles Butt |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Holmes, J. Stanley | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Bramsdon, Sir Thomas | Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) | Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. |
| Breese, Major Charles E. | Howard, Major S. G. | Sutton, John Edward |
| Briggs, Harold | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) |
| Bromfield, William | Johnstone, Joseph | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) | Kenyon, Barnet | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Cape, Thomas | Kiley, James Daniel | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Carr, W. Theodore | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lawson, John James | Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lindsay, William Arthur | Walton, J. (York, W. R. Don Valley) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughtan) | Lunn, William | Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D. |
| Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) | McMicking, Major Gilbert | Wedgwood, Colonel Joslah C. |
| Dockrell, Sir Maurice | Macquisten, F. A. | White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) |
| Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Wignall, James |
| Finney, Samuel | Mills, John Edmund | Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) |
| Foot, Isaac | Morris, Richard | Wilson, Capt. A. S. (Holderness) |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) | Wilson, James (Dudley) |
| Gilbert, James Daniel | Myers, Thomas | Windsor, Viscount |
| Glyn, Major Ralph | Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) | Wintringham, Margaret |
| Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) | Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark | Wise, Frederick |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) | Raffan, Peter Wilson | |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Ratcliffe, Henry Butler | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) | Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Major C. Lowther. |
| Hallas, Eldred | Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir p. (Chertsey) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Amery, Leopold C. M. S. | Brassey, H. L. C. | Cope. Major William |
| Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin | Brown, Major D. C. | Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South) |
| Armstrong, Henry Bruce | Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry |
| Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. | Bruton, Sir James | Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. | Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead) |
| Baird, Sir John Lawrence | Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. | Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Cairns, John | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) |
| Barnston, Major Harry | Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) | Dean, Commander P. T. |
| Barton, Sir William (Oldham) | Casey, T. W. | Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Cautley, Henry Strother | Doyle, N. Grattan |
| Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchlnl | Du Pre, Colonel William Baring |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Lady wood) | Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender | Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) |
| Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) | Clough, Sir Robert | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith |
| Blair, Sir Reginald | Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray |
| Farquharson, Major A. C. | Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) | Remer, J. R. |
| Fell, Sir Arthur | Kennedy, Thomas | Remnant, Sir James |
| Flannery. Sir James Fortescue | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) |
| Ford, Patrick Johnston | Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) | Rodger, A. K. |
| Forrest, Walter | Lister, Sir R. Ashton | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Fraser, Major Sir Keith | Lloyd, George Butler | Royce, William Stapleton |
| Galbraith, Samuel | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Gange, E. Stanley | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood) |
| Gardner, Ernest | M'Connell, Thomas Edward | Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur |
| Gee, Captain Robert | McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern) | Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Gillis, William | Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) | Seager, Sir William |
| Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) | Sharman-Crawford, Robert G. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.) | Shaw, William T. (Forfar) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Sir Hamar | Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S) | Smith, Sir Maicolm (Orkney) |
| Greig, Colonel Sir James William | Marriott, John Arthur Ransome | Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander |
| Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. | Matthews, David | Steel, Major S. Strang |
| Gwynne, Rupert S. | Middlebrook, Sir William | Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. |
| Hallwood, Augustine | Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Moles, Thomas | Sturrock, J. Leng |
| Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l.W.D'by) | Molson, Major John Elsdale | Taylor, J. |
| Hambro, Angus Valdemar | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz | Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham) |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Moreing, Captain Algernon H. | Thorpe, Captain John Henry |
| Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. | Tickler, Thomas George |
| Haslam, Lewis | Mosley, Oswald | Townley, Maximilian G. |
| Hills. Major John Waller | Murchison, C. K. | Tryon, Major George Clement |
| Hinds, John | Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) | Turton, Edmund Russborough |
| Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. | Murray, John (Leeds, West) | Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Nail, Major Joseph | Watson, Captain John Bertrand |
| Hopkins, John W. W. | Neal, Arthur | Weston, Colonel John Wakefield |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | White, Col. G. D. (Southport) |
| Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Nield, Sir Herbert | Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. |
| Hudson, R. M. | Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. | Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) |
| Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) | O'Connor, Thomas P. | Wilson. Field-Marshal Sir Henry |
| Hurd, Percy A. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Winterton, Earl |
| Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) |
| Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. | Pilditch, Sir Philip | Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) |
| James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton | Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. | Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) |
| Jesson, C. | Raeburn, Sir William H. | |
| Jodrell, Neville Paul | Randies, Sir John Scurrah | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) | Dr. Murray and Sir P. Magnus. |
Question put, and agreed to.