HC Deb 10 May 1922 vol 153 cc2198-203
Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

I beg to move, That leave be given to introduce a Bill to prevent the application of public money to vivisection experiments. This is a Bill which I claim is a practical attempt at economy, and its object is to prevent the spending of public money on vivisection experiments. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent vivisection experiments being continued at the hands of any learned societies or others who provide the money, but in these times I do not think it is right that public money should be granted for this purpose, especially as it must come in part from persons who have scruples against vivisection. The sum of money, I believe, is substantial, though I have not been been able to get the actual figures. Before the War the amount of money spent on medical research was round about £60,000 a year. It is now over £120,000, of which a considerable sum, I understand, is spent on these experiments. I believe the figures are round about £30,000 or £40,000. I think that is money which could well be saved at the present time, and I hope I shall have the support of the House in introducing this very simple and very short Bill. There is talk of more money being demanded for these experiments, and the salaries which are being paid to the researchers, all of whom, of course, are not employed in vivisection, though a good many are, come alone to £38,000 a year. That is a very substantial amount, and I believe it could be saved without any harm to the body politic. It will not prevent a single vivisection experiment which is necessary because the learned societies who think it is necessary will undoubtedly be able to supply the funds to enable the experiments to be carried on.

Dr. MURRAY

I do not know whether it is a breach of the traditions of the House, but I do not know that there is much harm in mentioning the fact that my hon. and gallant Friend told me before I came into the House that he would not like me to be here at a quarter to four o'clock. He usually likes a large audience when he is speaking and I thought there was something suspicious in the suggestion so I inquired and discovered that he was going to attempt to introduce this Bill. In a sense I am very glad that he has introduced it. I am always so impressed with his almost unchallengeable wisdom upon every other subject that I am glad to discover that he is human after all and sometimes he is wrong upon public questions of this sort. It is comforting for the ordinary Member who sometimes makes mistakes in public policy to know that my hon. and gallant Friend, like Homer, occasionally nods too. This is a really flank attack upon experimental research. I should have expected a frontal attack judging from my hon. and gallant Friend's usual methods. It would have been more frank and candid if he had introduced a Bill abolishing all experimental research of this kind. I dislike the word vivisection and prefer experimental research. My hon. and gallant Friend gave as his principal reason that there conscientious objectors to experimental research and therefore they should not be taxed for experimental research of that sort. I did not discover that he brought in a Bill to prevent any public money being wasted upon the Navy or the Army because there are conscientious objectors who will be taxed for, as they say, killing other people. The position is quite the same. If he would like to be consistent he ought also to have included in his Bill that no public money should be spent upon the Army or upon the Navy. He did not discuss the merits of experimental research. There are two or three reasons which I should like to give why public money of all monies should be spent upon experimental research. Vivisection, as it is called, has been the means of advancing medical research within the last 30 or 40 years to an extraordinary degree. There is, for instance, the surgery of the brain. You cannot experiment upon the human brain. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] I did hear of an Englishman who suggested that a surgical operation should be made upon a Scotsman's head under certain conditions, but although the suggestion has been made the experiment has never been carried out and therefore no Scotsman has ever got a glimmer of a sense of humour. But since research experiments have been made in the matter of the brain, some people suggest that Scotsmen have acquired a sense of humour. I do not know whether it is due to those experiments or not. Experiments upon animals have been the cause of a big progress in research of the brain, and that was of great use in the late War and saved thousands of lives. It is therefore a cause for which public money should be spent and spent much more liberally than it is at the present time. Take the case of diphtheria. How many lives have been saved by the knowledge gained by experiments in connection with anti-toxin? Surely that is an object for the spending of public money. One of the most recent advances in medical science has been due to experimental research in connection with the pituitary gland at the base of the brain. Without these experiments progress could not have been made, and in cases of shock after wounds in the War thousands of lives were saved. In another department, with which this House always shows sympathy, namely, obstetrics and women in labour, a series of experiments has saved more lives of women and children in one of the biggest crises of their lives than any other thing I know.

Mr. STANTON

Give us proof.

Dr. MURRAY

I am just giving these three examples as having been of great benefit to this country, to the world, and to humanity.

Mr. STANTON

Question.

Dr. MURRAY

I cannot conceive any object on which public money could be better spent than in the promotion of experimental research. Therefore, I object to this Bill being introduced.

Question put, "That leave be given to bring in the Bill to prevent the application of public money to vivisection experiments."

The House divided: Ayes, 102; Noes, 170.

Division No. 101.] AYES. [4.5 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Halls, Walter Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Hancock, John George Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Hartshorn, Vernon Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)
Banton, George Hayday, Arthur Rose, Frank H.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)
Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil) Sitch, Charles H.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hirst, G. H. Spencer, George A.
Bethell, Sir John Henry Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Stanton, Charles Butt
Betterton, Henry B. Holmes, J. Stanley Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.
Breese, Major Charles E. Howard, Major S. G. Sutton, John Edward
Briggs, Harold John, William (Rhondda, West) Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)
Bromfield, William Johnstone, Joseph Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Kenyon, Barnet Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Cape, Thomas Kiley, James Daniel Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Carr, W. Theodore Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lawson, John James Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)
Curzon, Captain Viscount Lindsay, William Arthur Walton, J. (York, W. R. Don Valley)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughtan) Lunn, William Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) McMicking, Major Gilbert Wedgwood, Colonel Joslah C.
Dockrell, Sir Maurice Macquisten, F. A. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)
Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Wignall, James
Finney, Samuel Mills, John Edmund Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Foot, Isaac Morris, Richard Wilson, Capt. A. S. (Holderness)
Frece, Sir Walter de Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Wilson, James (Dudley)
Gilbert, James Daniel Myers, Thomas Windsor, Viscount
Glyn, Major Ralph Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Wintringham, Margaret
Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Wise, Frederick
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Raffan, Peter Wilson
Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Ratcliffe, Henry Butler TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Major C. Lowther.
Hallas, Eldred Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir p. (Chertsey)
NOES.
Amery, Leopold C. M. S. Brassey, H. L. C. Cope. Major William
Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Brown, Major D. C. Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)
Armstrong, Henry Bruce Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Bruton, Sir James Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead)
Baird, Sir John Lawrence Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cairns, John Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Barnston, Major Harry Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Dean, Commander P. T.
Barton, Sir William (Oldham) Casey, T. W. Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Cautley, Henry Strother Doyle, N. Grattan
Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchlnl Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Lady wood) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Bigland, Alfred Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)
Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Clough, Sir Robert Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Blair, Sir Reginald Cohen, Major J. Brunel Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.
Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Farquharson, Major A. C. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Remer, J. R.
Fell, Sir Arthur Kennedy, Thomas Remnant, Sir James
Flannery. Sir James Fortescue Lane-Fox, G. R. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Ford, Patrick Johnston Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Rodger, A. K.
Forrest, Walter Lister, Sir R. Ashton Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Fraser, Major Sir Keith Lloyd, George Butler Royce, William Stapleton
Galbraith, Samuel Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Gange, E. Stanley Lowe, Sir Francis William Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood)
Gardner, Ernest M'Connell, Thomas Edward Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur
Gee, Captain Robert McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Gillis, William Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Seager, Sir William
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Sharman-Crawford, Robert G.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.) Shaw, William T. (Forfar)
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Sir Hamar Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S) Smith, Sir Maicolm (Orkney)
Greig, Colonel Sir James William Marriott, John Arthur Ransome Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Matthews, David Steel, Major S. Strang
Gwynne, Rupert S. Middlebrook, Sir William Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.
Hallwood, Augustine Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B. Stewart, Gershom
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Moles, Thomas Sturrock, J. Leng
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l.W.D'by) Molson, Major John Elsdale Taylor, J.
Hambro, Angus Valdemar Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Thorpe, Captain John Henry
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Tickler, Thomas George
Haslam, Lewis Mosley, Oswald Townley, Maximilian G.
Hills. Major John Waller Murchison, C. K. Tryon, Major George Clement
Hinds, John Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox) Turton, Edmund Russborough
Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Murray, John (Leeds, West) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Nail, Major Joseph Watson, Captain John Bertrand
Hopkins, John W. W. Neal, Arthur Weston, Colonel John Wakefield
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) White, Col. G. D. (Southport)
Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Nield, Sir Herbert Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.
Hudson, R. M. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)
Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) O'Connor, Thomas P. Wilson. Field-Marshal Sir Henry
Hurd, Percy A. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Winterton, Earl
Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Pilditch, Sir Philip Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward
Jephcott, A. R. Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)
Jesson, C. Raeburn, Sir William H.
Jodrell, Neville Paul Randies, Sir John Scurrah TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) Dr. Murray and Sir P. Magnus.

Question put, and agreed to.