SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE, NORTHERN IRELAND. (Hansard, 23 February 1922)

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
Under Section 38 of the Government of Ireland Act, the Supreme Court of Judicature in Ireland ceased to exist and was replaced by a Supreme Court for Southern Ireland and a Supreme Court for Northern Ireland, with a High Court of Appeal for the whole of Ireland. The expenditure for both these Courts will be met out of the original Estimate voted by this House for the Supreme Court of Judicature of all Ireland that existed prior to the 1920 Act, but a separate Vote is required for the Supreme Court of Northern Ireland, although no additional money is required to be voted by the Committee, because savings sufficient—approximately some £25,000—have been made on the original Estimates, and a very large part of this has been applied to setting up the new Court in Northern Ireland. The reason why this sum of £19,837 is asked is this, that out of the savings of about £25,000 this amount had to be surrendered to the Treasury, and I am asking the Committee to re-grant it, not as new money, but as old money. The important point about this Vote is that not only am I now asking for no new money, but this is a reserved service under the Government of Ireland Act, which is in operation in Northern Ireland, and the cost will be recovered by deduction from the Northern Irish share of reserved taxes, so that this Supplementary Estimate should meet with the whole-hearted approval of every member of the Committee, and I am sure the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London feels that this is the dawn of a new era.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I do not think it is the dawn of a new era. It is an old era revived, namely, those who are honest and just and who obey the law pay, whip those who are dishonest and do not obey the law get off.

Colonel NEWMAN
Our great anxiety in the South of Ireland is to know exactly what our taxes will be when we become citizens of the Free State, and here is something, at any rate, fairly comforting, because here is the Supreme Court of Judicature in Northern Ireland only asking for £19,837, whereas the total cost in the whole of Ireland came to £67,440. Therefore, I take it we may 2201 look for this, that the cost of the Judiciary in the South of Ireland will be nothing like £67,440 under the new form of Government, and probably will not be more than about £20,000. I hope that is so, and I notice that in this Vote very many things are omitted which appear in the previous Vote. If hon. Members look through these two Estimates, they will see that the Estimate for Northern Ireland is far cheaper than the other Estimate which we have just passed, and therefore I hope we shall have an assurance that when these Courts are run in the South of Ireland, they will be run as economically as in the North.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £1,000.
I hope the hon. and gallant Member for Finchley (Colonel Newman) is correct, and I rather think that the taxation of Southern Ireland later on will be very low and will afford a refuge for the industries ruined by the extractions and extortions of this extravagant Government; but what is the period that is covered by this sum of £19,837? Is it for the whole year, or only for the period since the Northern Government took over the government of Northern Ireland and the beginning of the next financial year? I rather think, from the various footnotes in the Estimates, that it is only for three or four months, and therefore it may be more expensive than we thought. This is a new service, although it is not so marked at the top. There was no corresponding service in the original Estimates, for the very good reason that there was no Northern Judicature in Ireland, and therefore I think we may be well advised just to look at the scale on which justice is to be administered in Northern Ireland. This new State, the result of the Balkanising process in Ireland, is, I think, smaller than Albania and about the size of Montenegro, and we are now dealing with their Supreme Court. First of all, there is a Registrar, very highly paid, with three assistant Registrars, receiving from £700 to £900; three first-class clerks and four second-class clerks, and a permanent secretary to the Supreme Court. That is the staff. Then we have an election petitions officer, who is entitled to £25, but is only given £8 in this Estimate, which confirms me in thinking that this is only for three months. There- 2202 fore I am afraid the hon. and gallant Member for Finchley was rather too sanguine. Of course, the Chief Secretary told us that this is no new money—only a matter of £19,000, a mere fleabite—but we ought to be getting something back out of our old Vote. Apparently, if the Government do not spend any more money, they come down to the Committee and expect us to fall on their necks and weep and to say, "How wonderful you are"; hut we are looking for some savings.
Turning again to this Estimate, I see that there is the Chief Clerk's Office for all divisions, which is very highly staffed; then there is the Land Registry of Northern Ireland (Central Office), the Office of Taxing Master, the Office of Accountant-General, Probate (Principal Registry, Belfast), with subordinate clerical staff for all Departments. Then there is Judges' personal staff, including three trainbearers and four tipstaves. There are three criers and the usual minor officials, including a charwoman, who receives the magnificent emolument of £4—a part-time job, I suppose, of sweeping away the cobwebs in this new Judicature. That is the staff, and I ask any hon. Member to look through these figures, when I think he will agree that it is a very swollen staff of legal officials for a small State like Northern Ireland. I do not wonder that the partition Act v as extremely popular with the gentlemen of the long robe. It must have been welcomed with great joy. This is a duplication of the Supreme Court of Ireland Then we come to Incidental Expenses. The area of Northern Ireland is small the area of Southern Ireland is large In the last Vote, the car hire, travelling and incidental expenses came, I think, to £280 for the larger area, and much greater population, and that included postage and telephone charges for Land Registry. In the case of this much smaller State, the cost is £400, not including Land Registry. As we have to find this money, we are entitled to ask why is this extra, sum required for the Northern Parliament?
We were told that an explanation would be given as to why the whole of the money originally voted for justice in Ireland had been diverted to the Southern Courts. The new Court gets the new money. We are told that the savings will come to £25,000, which will be sur- 2203 rendered, I suppose, next year. In the meantime, we have to find this money, and I am extremely surprised that the Northern Government, which does not seem to be represented here at this moment, in spite of the new Member they have to-day, increasing their numbers—I am very surprised that this Northern Government which, apparently, keeps such perfect order, and is so solvent, is not footing this Bill. I really wonder, after what we have done for Northern Ireland for many years, and not least in the last year or two, should come to us and ask us to pay for their Courts. [An HON. MEMBER: "Are they not footing the bill?"] Of course not. This is extra money over and above the money voted last year. All the money voted has gone to the Southern Supreme Court. This new Court was set up at the end of last year, and we are paying for it. It is very wrong, indeed. I hope that if the reply of the right hon. Gentleman is not satisfactory, the Committee will support me in insisting on the reduction I move.

§ Viscount WOLMER
The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken was in error in the last part of his speech. As I understood the Chief Secretary, every single penny of this Vote will be repaid to this Government by the Government of Northern Ireland. I quite agree that it is a most important point which has got to be cleared up. If we can be assured that every penny of this money is going to be repaid by the Government of Northern Ireland, I sincerely hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will not insist on his Amendment.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
The Government of Northern Ireland gets the savings of £25,000, and out of that they pay this £19,000. If I am wrong, I do not want to put the Committee to the trouble of a Division, but let us have the matter cleared up.

§ Major M. WOOD
This Vole will repay a good deal of scrutiny. One is impressed by the number of officials to be attached to the Courts of Northern Ireland, as compared with those in Southern Ireland. So far as I gather, the Courts in united Ireland previously had a certain number of officials, and those officials have been divided between Northern and Southern Ireland. I do 2204 not know on what principle they were thus divided, but I assume that is so. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to give us some indication as to how the dividing-up took place. Were officials allowed to elect under which of the Governments they were to go? Was a Registrar of the Supreme Court of Ireland entitled to say: "Well, under the new circumstances, I am going to Belfast," or could he say: "I am a Sinn Feiner, and, therefore, I will remain in Dublin"? It seems to be a point which is pertinent to this particular Vote. That is not all. One would like to know who was responsible for deciding how many courts and how many officials were to be attached to those courts.

§ Mr. INSKIP
Why not read the Act, and see?

§ Major WOOD
Some may he in the Act, but, I am sure not all.

§ Mr. INSKIP
They are all in the Act.

§ Major WOOD
At any rate, the salaries attached to these offices are not given in the Act, and I should like the Committee to compare the salaries of the officials in Northern Ireland with those of the officials in Southern Ireland. Take the Registrar's office, which appears in both Votes. We find there are 11 officials in the Registrar's office for Northern Ireland and the same number in Southern Ireland, though there is no comparison between the size of the two areas, and there can be no comparison in the duties which have to be performed. Yet we have the same number of officials, and, so far as I can gather, the same salaries in each case. If you compare individual offices, you will find the same discrepancy. Take, for instance, the judge's personal staff. We find in Northern Ireland that the private secretary to the Lord Chief Justice is to get £350 a year. In Southern Ireland, where, I imagine, the work of the private secretary would be much greater, he only gets £200 a year. Why this difference in salary, and why should a man who, on the face of it, one would expect to have more responsible duties, be paid less? I should like to know whether the British Government are responsible for these offices, whether they have approved all of them, and whether they have approved the salaries attached? Take the "Trial of Election Petitions." It is quite a small 2205 office. It gets £25 in the one case, and £10 in the other. Again, it is the Election Petition Officer of Southern Ireland who is paid less. We have to find this money immediately, and, therefore, we ought to be satisfied that it is being paid out properly, and we ought to have from the right hon. Gentleman a statement that he has gone into this question, and thinks the numbers and salaries are proper, because, if we do not get that, I do not think we should give him the Vote.

Dr. MURRAY
I do not think that this Debate should be going on in the absence of the entire representation of Northern Ireland. Fancy a day on the Scottish Estimates, and not a Scottish Member present to see that justice was being done to Scotland! It makes it all the more suspicious to my mind that the representatives for Northern Ireland think they are making a very good bargain for themselves. Therefore, I am inclined to suggest that the discussion of this Vote be postponed until we have representatives of that part of the country most intimately interested to give the Committee some reason for this Vote. Someone suggests to me that there is some function on, but that is no reason why there should not be watchdogs here for the party. It is not fair or polite to the Committee that the whole of the Members for Northern Ireland should be absent when Estimates dealing with their province are before the Committee. The only official who seems to be underpaid in these Estimates is in the Northern Election Petitions Office. If justice were done in Ireland, in connection with every election there would be an election petition. I have heard it suggested that one man voted 100 times at a certain election. I suggest that in connection with every Parliamentary election, and, I suppose, civic election as well, in Ireland, if justice were done, there would be an election petition by the unsuccessful candidate. I protest against going on with this discussion until the Members for Northern Ireland show sufficient respect to the Committee to come here when we are voting them money. I, therefore, desire to move the Adjournment of the Debate.

§ The CHAIRMAN
I cannot accept that.

§ Captain W. BENN
The Members from Northern Ireland are not affected by this 2206 Vote. It is the British taxpayer who is affected; there is no question about that. The matter is rather complicated, and I will try and put the situation as I understand it. I think that, technically speaking, the Chief Secretary was mistaken when he described this as a reserved service. If he will look at Section 9 of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, he will find certain specified things that are reserved. This is not one of them that is included.

§ Mr. INSKIP
Yes. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will look at Section 47, he will see it all set out there.

§ Captain BENN
I have seen all the Sections before. The position is that we paid for this Court before, and are continuing to pay for it now in two parts instead of one, but as an Appropriation-in-Aid we are getting the portion of the Imperial contribution which is provided for. There is an Imperial contribution of £18,000,000 to be paid by the two Irish Governments when they are set up. I submit to the Committee that we are deeply interested in the amount of the Vote, and that if a saving is effected the British taxpayer benefits, inasmuch as the contribution in respect of the judicial services now is limited by the Section I have quoted, which fixes the contribution to the Imperial Exchequer from the two Irish Governments.

§ Mr. INSKIP
Section 24, Sub-section (1) (b), provides that there shall be deducted from the sum to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom to the Exchequers of Southern and Northern Ireland the net cost to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom during the year of the services so remaining reserved services. That provides that it shall be practically reimbursed by this country.

§ Captain BENN
The hon. Gentleman is again referring to this as a reserved service. I do not think that that is so. I understand that the cost falls on the British Exchequer, and that we may be reimbursed, so far as we can be, from the contribution from Ireland. If that falls short we have to make good the difference, and therefore it is natural that the matter should come on the British Estimates, and that we should be keenly interested in the figure and not the members for Northern Ireland. I suggest 2207 that when the Chief Secretary tells us that not a penny of this really affects the pockets of the British taxpayer, he does not correctly represent the facts. As a matter of fact, we have to pay, and therefore everything that has been said with regard to the size of the staff and as to whether it is commensurate with the very small territory and population of Northern Ireland is very germane. It is not a matter which affects Ireland at all, but it affects hon. Members representing the United Kingdom.

§ Mr. INSKIP
I am rather unwilling to intervene, because the Chief Secretary must know his own Act of Parliament better than I do. Under Section 47 of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, the administration of the Courts in Northern Ireland are reserved services. If the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Bean) will refer to Section 24 he will see that it provides that there should be paid out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom to the Exchequers of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland a sum equal to the Irish share of reserved taxes, but they will only get that after taking out the cost of the services which remain reserved services, and this Supreme Court remains a reserved service. Therefore, so long as we have to pay for that reserved service, the cost of that is deducted from the payment which would otherwise go to the Government of Northern Ireland. With regard to Northern Ireland—I express my opinion for what it is worth—we do get this money back.

§ Mr. RAWLINSON
Does that make any difference? Supposing there is a balance against us, is the amount of the reserved taxation likely to exceed the amount of our liabilities? If so, I shall be very pleased indeed, and shall take no further part in the discussion on this Vote. It is abundantly plain to me that it is not so, and that we shall not get all this money back again from Northern Ireland. Therefore, I agree that this has nothing to do with the Members from the North of Ireland, and I am not surprised at their absence this evening. It will not make any difference to them. There will always be a debit against us, and the British taxpayers are the persons who have every reason to keep this Vote down as low as possible.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
The law is perfectly clear. In Northern and Southern Ireland these services, being a reserved matter managed by the Imperial Parliament, the net cost is repaid by Northern and Southern Ireland. The repayment is made by a deduction from the sum which has been paid by Great Britain to, Northern and Southern Ireland. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) said: "Supposing the sum we have to pay to Northern Ireland is less than the net amount which Northern Ireland has to pay to us, what then?" That is a very ingenious question which I cannot solve. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary, whose ingenuity is greater than mine, will be able to do so. I presume we shall have a claim against Northern Ireland, because the amount we shall have to pay to her will be less than she will have to pay to us. If I owe my hon. and learned Friend £10 and he owes me all I have to do is to pay him £5. If, however, the position is reversed, I, can claim from him the repayment of the debt, because the sum that he has paid me is not sufficient to cancel it. Under the Statutes dealing with the Common Law of England it would remain a debt, even though he had not sufficient money to cancel it. That is so with regard to Northern Ireland. The representatives from Northern Ireland are not here. The reason is because they are not going to repudiate their bargain. They have accepted the Act of 1920, and there is no question about their coming here because they do not want to repudiate it. The representatives of Southern Ireland are not here either, and for reasons quite the reverse. They have repudiated their bargain and do not want to be here to justify their repudiation.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I would like to clear up a few of the points which have been raised Surely there is no question about it; this is a reserved service. I cannot understand how the Committee and how hon. Members who sat during the Debates upon the Bill of 1920 can question the fact that this is a reserved service. Because it is a reserved service, the Chief Secretary is responsible to this House for it. He can only he responsible for reserved services. In Northern Ireland, when judges are to be appointed, recommendations are made to the Prime Minister by me and then submitted by 2209 him in the normal way, because the judiciary is a reserved service. It is also clear that, being a reserved service, under the Government of Ireland Act the cost will be covered by deduction from the Northern Irish share of reserved taxes. If there is a balance against us—well, I will not go into that, for I cannot look into the future. I can make the plain statement that there is a deduction on this reserved service from the Irish share of Irish taxes, The Members from Northern Ireland in this House have certainly never failed in any respect to live up to the spirit of their obligations, and I am sure they never will. That clears away the question of this being a reserved service.
The point was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) as to the disparity in the amounts in the column of the Supplementary Estimates. That is accounted for by the fact that this Supreme Court of Northern Ireland was set. up on the 1st October last, half-way through the present financial year. The amounts in the column vary because the appointments were made at different dates subsequent to the 1st October. I do not think, with some knowledge of the Courts of the Empire, that this is at all a swollen list of officials for the Northern Parliament area. I can reassure the Committee by saying that every appointment is reviewed and agreed to by the Treasury in England before it is incorporated in this Supplementary Estimate, and submitted to this Committee.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
And the salaries also?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
Certainly, every item. That is part of the reserved service, and it was accepted in 1920. There is nothing unusual in having tipstaves and criers in connection with the administration of justice.

Colonel NEWMAN
Is this total of £19,000 odd for six months or for a year?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
It is for six months, commencing on the 1st October last and up to 31st March of this year.

Colonel NEWMAN
Then, in a normal year, the cost would be about £41,000?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I cannot say what it would be for a year.

Colonel NEWMAN
The judges—

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
The judges are not in this at all. They are on the Consolidated Fund, which is quite another matter altogether. Hon. Members refer to the tipstaves and the criers, but I would point out that this is only carrying on into our modern system the old historical names. The persons who do so will be none the worse for old traditions. I should have thought that anyone with knowledge of them in this country would be proud to maintain them. I cannot pretend to deal with the detailed and irrelevant references of the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Dr. Murray), who criticised the absence of the hon. Members of the Northern Parliament. He does not blame me for that.
This is an Estimate which the House ought to be pleased to pass, first because it does not add any additional money to the original Estimate, but represents a re-arrangement among the high officers in the Courts of Ireland and establishes two courts. The amount is ultimately taken into consideration and recovered by deduction from the Northern Parliament's share of reserved taxation. I should have thought this would have commended itself to the intelligence of the Committee.

§ Major M. WOOD
How is it that the bonus on salaries in Southern Ireland is £27,000, almost half the total grant for salaries. In the Northern Parliament it is only £5,000 out of £19,000? Why is there such a large bonus in the one case as compared with the other?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
It is fixed in conference with the various authorities, and the bonus varies with the rank and length of service of the recipients.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I would like to make a suggestion. When we have very difficult legal points, might we not have the, assistance of the Irish Law Officers?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I am very glad the right hon. Baronet has raised that point. In the interests of economy I have done without the Solicitor-General for Ireland since last July, and I have saved at the rate of £2,000 a year. I have also done without an Attorney-General and saved at the rate of £5,000 a year. It is 2211 because I am trying to economise that I am without those two distinguished exponents of the law.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
Cannot we have the British Law Officers here?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
No; it is not the duty of the British Law Officers to come here. It is the duty of the Irish Law Officers to be here, and I should have thought that their absence would have weighed in my favour in regard to this Vote.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
I think it is an extraordinary doctrine for the Chief Secretary to lay down. We pay the Law Officers of the Crown very highly indeed for their services. The least they can do is to be here when legal questions are being discussed. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on having dispensed with the assistance of the Irish Law Officers, but that is all the more reason why he should obtain the assistance and support of the English Law Officers, and their presence is a duty to the Committee.

§ The CHAIRMAN
I am afraid that has very remote connection with the question before the Committee.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
I will leave that point. The explanation has been given very fully, and I do not want to make things difficult. For these reasons I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.