§
Motion made, and question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £144,800, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1923, for Expenditure in respect of the Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens."—[Note: £74,000 has been voted on account.]
§ Sir G. COLLINSSeveral hon. Members have refrained from dividing the Committee in order that there may be an opportunity of discussing the Votes. On page 17 of the Estimates a sum of £23,240 is provided for the cost of Metropolitan Police in Hyde Park. That item gives me an opportunity of reviewing, once again, the question of women police in Hyde Park. I do not profess to be fully posted on the matter, but an hon. Member, if he is able to catch the Speaker's eye, will move a reduction on this Vote, 330 with a view to testing the opinion of the Committee as to the necessity of employing women in Hyde Park.
§ 8.0 P.M.
§ Major BARNETTOn page 15 of the Estimates is an item of £3,000 for the provision of tennis courts on ground formerly occupied by the Royal Toxophilite Society in Regent's Park. I want to say a word about this society. I want to appeal as to whether something could not be done to preserve that royal and ancient society and find room for tennis courts elsewhere. We have had a war in which we have employed tin hats and other bullet-proof reversions to armour. The time may come when other methods of warfare may be employed, and we may have to go back to bows and arrows. My suggestion is that the Royal Toxophilite Society should be allowed to continue their useful and honourable functions. There is no reason why these people, who have occupied——
The CHAIRMANI am not quite sure how this becomes relevant. Does the hon. Gentleman say the Office of Works objected to the Royal Toxophilite Society or put any hard measure upon them?
§ Major BARNETTThe Royal Toxophilite Society bitterly resents its ejection from this ground, and I am asking the hon. and gallant Member who represents the Office of Works whether there is not time for repentance, even now, before he creates these tennis courts at an expense of £3,000? I know there are thousands of people who play tennis for every one who indulges in archery, but as a rifleman I have the greatest possible respect for archery, which, after all, was one of the great accomplishments of the English in old times. It is a noble art, and I appeal to the hon. and gallant Gentleman to give the Royal Toxophilite Society another chance and to put the tennis players elsewhere.
§ Mrs. WINTRINGHAMI beg to move, to reduce the Vote by £100.
I am moving this reduction in order to call attention to the necessity for employing women police in Hyde Park. The saving mentioned on page 17 of the Estimates under the head of "Hyde Park, Estimated cost of Metropolitan Police" is just over £3,000. This saving I is going to be effected probably at the 331 cost of the dismissal of the women police who are at present acting as patrols in Hyde Park. These are trained, picked and efficient women. Their work is to warn girls, take their addresses, and then to threaten them with proceedings—if it comes to that. This is work that must be done in Hyde Park. Men can do it, but the women at present in the police force are better suited to it. They follow up their cases; they visit the women and the girls at home after they have been warned. I do not wish to cast any reflection on the male police; I only ask that their work should continue to be supplemented by that of the women police. The danger to the nation if this work is left undone will be very serious. The Home Secretary himself admits the importance of this supervision, and the benefit it is to the country, and he has suggested that volunteers should do the work. There is no guarantee that volunteers will undertake the work, and every social service backs up the expenditure of this money. Why run the risk which will follow the stopping of the work for the paltry saving of £3,000? If it is necessary to save this money, the reduction should be apportioned between the male and the female officers. Some part of the work of supervision should be left to women; some woman officer should always be in Hyde Park for girls to appeal to in case of need. I ask that a nucleus of women patrols should be left. There is no saving if this reduction is made at the expense of the mischief which may be done if the supervision by these women police is not maintained.
Lieut.-Colonel MOORE BRABAZONI wish to draw the attention of the Committee to what I consider to be very bureaucratic and Prussian action on the part of the powers that be with regard to Hyde Park. When the railway strike took place a big portion of the park was equipped as an immense garage. In the course of that work the grass was destroyed on a plot opposite to Knights-bridge Barracks. When they saw the damage, the Office of Works very rightly surrounded the whole of that track of land and sowed it, and when everything was going on perfectly right—somebody must have thought it was going too well—three football grounds were made upon it. This piece of ground was closed to the general public, and the Household 332 Brigade were allowed to play football upon it. Although not a soul in London was allowed the privilege of walking over this piece of ground, the soldiers of London were allowed to mess it up and "chaw" it up into a condition worse than it ever was before. The net result is that to-day, when the football season is over, this piece of land is again closed. If a piece of land is closed with the object of restoring it, it ought to be closed to everybody, and I maintain that the military have no overriding right in the park. If the soldiers had not played on it, it would have been all right for the public, but now it has been ruined, and once again it has to be closed. If the Office of Works is going to adopt a new policy of letting definite portions of Hyde Park for definite amusement, although they have up to now refused to allow golf in a remote corner of Richmond Park, surely we might have a racecourse in Hyde Park, just as they have in Paris, and we might reduce the rates of London by Sunday afternoon race meetings there. Hyde Park is for the public of London, and I protest against its being thought that the military have rights overriding those of the ordinary civilians.
§ Viscount CURZONI wish to ask the hon. and gallant Member another question about Hyde Park, with reference to the flower beds which were done away with, in the interests of economy, three years ago. Those flower beds were a source of the greatest delight to people who seldom had a chance of seeing what a bed of flowers looks like, except in Hyde Park. I want to suggest that the hon. and gallant Member should consider seriously the possibility of getting these flower beds restored, by offering them by tender to private firms. I suggest they should be allowed to lay out those beds with flowers as a form of advertisement. When you go to flower shows you see little gardens of this sort nicely arranged. Some of them were to be seen at the Ideal Home Exhibition. They bore little tickets, about the size of a page of the OFFICIAL REPORT, saying the beds had been laid out by So-and-so. I only suggest this in the interests of economy, because, while I do not want the Crown to be put to any expense, I want the public to have the enjoyment of those flower beds again. I am sure they gave delight to a great many people. I well remember as a small boy myself going to see them, and I appre- 333 ciated them very much too. If the hon. and gallant Member cannot get them all restored to what they were before the War, at least cannot he get some of the beds planted again?
Then there is another subject, which comes a little nearer home. In the Royal Parks there is a Regulation forbidding people to learn to drive motor-cars. [Laughter.] I thought that might rouse a little amusement. Numbers of people have been hauled off to the Police Court and heavily fined because they were found to be learning to drive cars in Richmond Park. Is it really necessary to do this in the interests of the public? Is it not much better for everybody that they should learn to drive in a place like Richmond Park, which is fairly well deserted, rather than go on the road?
§ Sir J. GILMOURI really hope the Committee will let us have this Vote tonight. With regard to the questions asked by the hon. Member for Louth (Mrs. Wintringham) and the hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins), about the women police, that, of course, is not a matter with which my Department is directly concerned. There appears on our Vote a certain sum of money for police for the maintenance of order in Hyde Park, but the actual selection of the police who are employed there is in the hands of the Commissioner of Police. I am not unfriendly to the good work which the lady police have done, speaking personally, but this is a matter which is outside my province. With regard to the tennis courts, to which the hon. and gallant Member for St. Pancras (Major Barnett) referred, and the removal from Regent's Park of the Royal Toxophilite Society, like him I have great sympathy with archery, being myself a member of a very old body of archers, but I am convinced that the policy pursued in this case
§ is in the interests of the general public. The ground held by this society from the Office of Woods has now fallen in, and is handed over by the Office of Woods to this Department. We propose to place upon that ground a number of tennis courts open to the general public, and I believe they will give enjoyment to a much larger number of people living in the vicinity of the Park than would enjoy the continuance of the society there, however deserving its efforts may have been.
§ Let me say one word with regard to the football ground used by the troops opposite Knightsbridge Barracks. The ground has certainly been cut up, and, of course, it will be a question for consideration whether something will not have to be done to prevent that in the future. But I am loth to adopt any suggestion which would prevent the use of a portion of the park by the troops for this purpose, and I am the more encouraged in that view because I believe the general public have on many occasions watched with great interest the playing of football on this particular ground.
§ Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZONMy whole point is that if troops are allowed to play football in the park the public should be allowed to walk over the ground. In walking over the ground they do not damage it as playing football does.
§ Sir J. GILMOURI think that is reasonable. I hope the Committee will now give me this Vote, because it is really urgent that we should get on at an early date with the operations in the interests of economy.
§ Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £144,700, be granted for the said Service."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 61; Noes, 100.
335| Division No. 91.] | AYES. | [8.16 p.m. |
| Banton, George | Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston) |
| Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) | Entwistle, Major C. F. | Hirst, G. H. |
| Barrand, A. R. | Finney, Samuel | Hogge, James Myles |
| Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) | Ford, Patrick Johnston | Holmes, J. Stanley |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Galbraith, Samuel | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) |
| Bramsdon, Sir Thomas | Gillis, William | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Kennedy, Thomas |
| Cairns, John | Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) | Kenyon, Barnet |
| Cape, Thomas | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Lunn, William |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) | Grundy, T. W. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth) | Mosley, Oswald |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Hartshorn, Vernon | Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Hayday, Arthur | Myers, Thomas |
| Newbould, Alfred Ernest | Royce, William Stapleton | Tillett, Benjamin |
| Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Shaw, Thomas (Preston) | White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) |
| Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) |
| Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) | Spencer, George A. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Sutton, John Edward | |
| Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) | Swan, J. E. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) | Mrs. Wintringham and Mr. Foot. |
| Rose, Frank H. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Greenwood, William (Stockport) | Parker, James |
| Amery, Leopold C. M. S. | Hailwood, Augustine | Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry |
| Atkey, A. R. | Hamilton, Major C. G. C. | Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) | Hancock, John George | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Barnston, Major Harry | Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Purchase, H. G. |
| Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) | Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Blane, T. A. | Hopkins, John W. W. | Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) |
| Borwick, Major G. O. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) |
| Bowyer, Captain G. W. E | Howard, Major S. G. | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Breese, Major Charles E. | Hudson, R. M. | Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) | Seddon, J. A. |
| Broad, Thomas Tucker | Jameson, John Gordon | Simm, M. T. |
| Brown, Major O. C. | Jodrell, Neville Paul | Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander |
| Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. | Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) | Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) |
| Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes | Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George | Strauss, Edward Anthony |
| Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. | Kidd, James | Sturrock, J. Leng |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Sugden, W. H. |
| Cope, Major William | Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) | Taylor, J. |
| Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd 'n) | Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lort-Williams, J. | Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) |
| Dean, Commander P. T. | Loseby, Captain C. E. | Tryon, Major George Clement |
| Edge, Captain Sir William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Wallace, J. |
| Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Warren, Sir Alfred H. |
| Evans, Ernest | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | White, Col. G. D. (Southport) |
| Falcon, Captain Michael | Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) | Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) |
| Fell, Sir Arthur | Mason, Robert | Windsor, Viscount |
| Foreman, Sir Henry | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz | Wise, Frederick |
| Forrest, Walter | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) |
| Fraser, Major Sir Keith | Moreing, Captain Algernon H. | Young, E. H. (Norwich) |
| Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | |
| Gilbert, James Daniel | Neal, Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. |
| Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) | Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) | Dudley Ward. |
| Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) | Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ It being after a Quarter-past Eight of the Clock, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 4.