HC Deb 13 June 1921 vol 143 cc162-9

(3) Nothing in this Section shall operate-to prevent—

(c) the performance in any public dental service of minor dental work by any person under the personal supervision of a registered dentist and in accordance with conditions approved by the Minister of Health after consultation with the Dental Board to be established under this Act.

(4) This Section shall come into operation on the expiration of one year from the commencement of this Act or on the expiration of such further period not exceeding two years as His Majesty may by Order in Council direct.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

The hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has handed in several Amendments in a form which it is not easy to deal with, but I will do my best. The first Amendment is in Subsection (3) to add a new paragraph, "(d) the extraction of teeth without fee or payment." It appears to me that this Amendment is covered by paragraph (b).

Colonel WEDGWOOD

No.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

Perhaps the hon. Member will explain it.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I beg to move, in Sub-section 3, at the end of paragraph (c), to add a new paragraph: (d) The extraction of teeth without fee or payment. I propose this Amendment to safeguard the position of the mother of a large family. Frequently in the course of domestic life the mother of a family has to extract a loose tooth from a child's mouth, and a not unusual method is to tie one end of a string to the knob of a door and the other end to the tooth, and then to bring a red hot poker near the child's face so that the child pulls back its head, and the tooth is drawn. That is not skilled dentistry, but that is no reason for making it a crime. Under this Bill anybody who tampers with the teeth of people commits a crime, and I would like to have it made perfectly definite that a mere domestic extraction of that sort should not be treated as a crime.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

The extracting of a tooth by the mother of a family could not be said to be practising dentistry. A domestic object of that sort is not prevented in any way by the Clause as it stands.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

That depends on what the Bill is. The object of the Bill is quite clear—to create a vested interest in dentistry, to create a corporation of people who will have the sole right to practise as dentists. Once you give them that right, they may just as well interfere with domestic operations as with any other form of dentistry. At any rate I see no harm in having these words inserted in the Bill which will insure that there will be no interference of this sort. Directly you give experts, whether doctors, dentists, or any other practitioners, the power to interfere in domestic life, they always make the best of their opportunities.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I believe that this is unnecessary, but I will not rule it out of order.

Mr. T. GRIFFITHS

I beg to second the Amendment.

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Alfred Mond)

I am rather surprised at my hon. and gallant Friend moving this Amendment after the discussion which we had on this point in Committee. I then made it clear that we took out the words "without fee or reward" for the very simple reason that we wanted to prevent unqualified people starting by undertaking to extract teeth without fee or reward on the understanding that they would be able to sell artificial teeth to these people, so that they would be really practising and by some camouflage defeating the whole object of the Bill. The object of the Bill is to prevent unqualified people tampering with the teeth of the nation. The House will agree that something in this direction is long overdue. The case of a mother taking out the tooth of her own child cannot be held to be practising dentistry, either directly or by implication. It is neither practising nor preparing to practice dentistry, and, so far as this case is concerned, these words are unnecessary.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I should have thought that it was practising dentistry.

Sir A. MOND

My hon. and gallant Friend surely does not mean to say that an operation of that kind is dentistry. I can assure him that that class of domestic operation to which he attaches so much importance is not endangered by this Clause, and I hope that he will withdraw his Amendment.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

On the assurance of my right hon. Friend I will withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I beg to move to leave out Clause 1.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

That is not in order on Report.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Then I beg to move, "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."

Clause 1 is the vital Clause. Obviously we are utterly unprepared to debate this matter now. We have got before us a Bill which has just come up from Committee. There are no Amendments on the Paper. We have had to hand Amendments in most hurriedly. We are now told that an Amendment to leave out Clause 1 is out of order. I always thought that on the Report stage an Amendment to leave out a Clause was in order provided that it was on the Paper, and that provides one more reason for asking that the Debate should be adjourned

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

I beg to second the Motion. I am not hostile to this Bill, but I have received a great many communications from dentists in my constituency asking for certain Amendments, not wrecking Amendments. Owing to the way in which this Bill has been brought on, I have not had time to put them on the Paper. I have not even got the wording here. There was no time even to telephone to have it sent up. In the circumstances I do not think it quite fair to proceed with this Bill in view of the great importance of this Measure affecting so many people in the country as well as the general health of the community. I hope, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to give it another chance. I do not think that anyone is opposed to the principle of the Bill.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

indicated dissent.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

I am quite sure my hon. and gallant Friend will not obstruct it unnecessarily.

Sir A. MOND

I am sorry I cannot accept the proposals to adjourn the Debate. At the beginning of this Session I was strongly pressed by those most interested in the Bill to produce it. I said that that was impossible, and that I could only produce it on the understanding that it was taken practically as an agreed Bill. Long negotiations took place with all the leading parties affected, and practically it was agreed that after the Bill passed the Committee the Report stage should be treated as agreed.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Agreed by whom?

Sir A. MOND

By representatives of the registered and unregistered dentists.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

What about the public?

Sir A. MOND

The Minister represents the public and it is in the interests of the public that the Bill should be passed. The Bill is the outcome of the work of a Departmental Committee. All these questions have been fully discussed. There was plenty of time in Committee to put down Amendments. I did not myself expect that the Bill would come on this evening, but there has been time to put Amendments on the Paper, and I have looked for them. It is not fair that the matter should now be adjourned. I cannot promise that there will ever be another opportunity for taking the Report stage. I am very glad there is such an opportunity now. To the hon. and gallant Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) I can say that if we get the Report stage now and if the hon. and gallant Member has any points to raise, I shall be glad to discuss them, and should they be of importance there might be an opportunity in another place of meeting some of his views. This Bill is badly wanted, and hon. Members know how Parliamentary business is congested.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

The right hon. Gentleman insists on having his Bill now, and he can get it. It is no use trying to debate the Bill because there are no Amendments on the Paper. When the right hon. Gentleman comes before the House and says that the Bill is the result of the work of a Departmental Committee which has inquired into the whole matter, and the result of an agreement among dentists and unregistered practitioners, he is not telling all the truth, although he may be strictly accurate so far as they are concerned. The Report of the Departmental Committee included a great deal more than the putting of the dentists in the same category as the doctors. It included also a free dental service. All that has been dropped. It included some form of scholarship which would enable children of the working class to become practitioners. That, too, has been dropped. Dentistry has been made a close corporation, confined, like doctoring, to the children of the middle and upper classes, and ruling out all those who are dental mechanics. It is another closing of the door upon the working classes. The original plan of the Committee—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

The hon. and gallant Member has exhausted his right to speak on this particular Amendment.

Mr. LAWSON

It is scarcely fair to put through this House a Bill of such vital public importance when so little knowledge of the Bill is in the possession of the House. I have not been on the Committee and I have only just learned, and with pleasure, that a certain agreement had been arrived at; but here is a vital public service being placed in the hands of certain men practically as a monopoly. What guarantee against monopoly charges have the public got? Are you to have the unregistered men in the East End raising their standard of fees to the flash prices of the West End? The Minister of Health has told us that he did not expect the Bill to be brought forward to-night. I think the House ought to have an opportunity of knowing the facts regarding what took place in Committee and what guarantee the public are to have against monopoly prices.

Sir ELLIS HUME-WILLIAMS

I do not know anything about any agreements, but I do know that owing practically to an accident we have now an opportunity of passing a very badly needed Bill. The Bill has been discussed in Committee. There was also a meeting upstairs, attended by many hon. Members, at which the Bill was explained. There has been corespondence in the "Times" on the Bill, and both sides have joined in it. If hon. Members had desired to put down Amendments for the Report Stage they have had ample time to do so.

Mr. SEDDON

I wish to endorse the statement of the last speaker. The Minister of Health has pointed out that in the early part of this Session the Bill was agreed to by all those who spoke for the registered and the unregistered. Last year the then Minister of Health introduced his Bill and there was a good deal of hostility between the various sections of unregistered men who did not belong to the same particular society. The Bill was dropped last year, but those who were directly interested, the large body of unregistered men, recognised that the Bill was urgently needed after the experience of the War. The Medical Council took up an attitude that seemed to be extreme to the unregistered men. After negotiations the Council modified their point of view. The three or four organisations representing unregistered men had a meeting upstairs, and after a frank discussion agreed that the fight should take place in Committee and that each section representing the dentists should have an opportunity of placing upon the Order Paper Amendments embodying their objections. The fight went on upstairs in the best spirit possible, and when the Bill passed through Committee it was taken as an honourable bond by all the parties that there should be no further Amendment.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

By all the parties who agreed.

Mr. SEDDON

I am convinced that, from the point of view of the community and even of the dentists-to-be, the conditions of examination are not irksome.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

They will cost a candidate £1,000.

Mr. SEDDON

No, it need not cost so much. What is going on now will continue. There are thousands of dental mechanics who are not only prepared, but are making provision to meet what are the requirements of the examination, and from information I have received I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that those who are willing to receive the instruction will have it provided for them at a very low cost. The vital question is this: Here we have an issue which has been before the country for years. The mistakes of 1878 created new mistakes, but now at the last moment everybody is agreed. I do not think you will find that the mechanics, or any other section, will be opposed to placing the profession on a more equitable basis. So far as increasing the prices goes, it is a question of competition—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I think the hon. Member is getting rather far from the question that the Debate should be now adjourned.

Mr. SEDDON

I desire to make a final appeal to the House to pass the Bill, because it contains no injustice to anyone, but is the commencement of the work of placing a great public service on a better basis in the interests of the population of this country.

Question, "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned," put, and negatived.