HC Deb 06 June 1921 vol 142 cc1496-8
58. Captain TERRELL

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what percentage of civil servants are now on the establishment; what percentage are unestablished; and whether it is possible to form some idea of the extra cost which would be entailed if pensions were accorded to all?

Mr. YOUNG

Of the 366,894 employés shown in the Return of Staffs for 1st April (Cmd. 1290), about 54 per cent. are on the establishment and 46 per cent. are unestablished. As regards the last part of the question, I have to refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave him on the 1st instant.

Captain TERRELL

Will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that, before the Treasury agrees to any enlargement of the existing establishment, the House of Commons will be given an opportunity of discussing it?

Mr. YOUNG

A similar question has very often been put in regard to this matter and I think my hon. and gallant Friend knows the answer that has to be given. It is always the policy of the Government under all circumstances to secure every possible opportunity for the House to discuss and pronounce its opinion on these questions, but in view of such circumstances as that the House may not be sitting, it is not possible in all cases to give a definite undertaking.

Captain TERRELL

Did not the hon. Gentleman in answer to the original question say that if pensions were granted to all civil servants the cost to the nation would be approximately £1,000,000 a week?

Mr. YOUNG

As the hon. Member sees from my original answer, it would be more misleading than not to try and put a figure on the proposals in the somewhat general form in which my hon. Friend has put them to me. I can assure him I have by no means underestimated the cost, which would undoubtedly be very large.

Captain TERRELL

Is it not a fact that there is at present a movement on foot to put all who are now unestablished on the basis of establishment? If that is so surely it is the hon. Gentleman's duty to tell the House exactly what it would cost the nation if all people at present employed in the Civil Service are to be entitled to pensions?

Mr. YOUNG

If the hon. and gallant Member will read my answer to his last question on this subject he will see I have given all the information at my disposal in relation to this point, but if he will put before me any scheme of which he has heard in such a form as to render it possible to make an estimate of course it will be my duty to prepare a figure from the information at my disposal. But as his question stands I assure him the conditions are so vague that it would make any estimate that could be given more misleading than not.

Captain TERRELL

Is it not true my hon. Friend admitted that certain proposals had been put forward? If that is so, may I not ask the Leader of the House if the House will be afforded an opportunity of discussing those proposals before they are settled behind the backs of hon. Members?

Mr. SPEAKER

If the hon. and gallant Member will place on the Paper a specific question embodying the point he has put in this supplementary question, no doubt he will get an answer.

Captain TERRELL

May I respectfully point out that it is the custom now of the Government to settle this sort of question behind our backs—questions which involve enormous expenditure. I am simply asking that before anything is settled in this matter we, who are supposed to be the guardians of the public purse, should have an opportunity of discussing it without the Whips being put on.

Mr. SPEAKER

If the hon. and gallant Member will put down a question defining the proposals to which he refers, no doubt an answer will be given, both as to the cost, and as to whether it will be done without discussion by the House.

Sir H. CRAIK

Is it possible to put the question in a more specific form than the hon. and gallant Member has done, namely, "Is it possible to form some idea of the extra cost involved?" Cannot that question be answered?

Mr. YOUNG

I think I can satisfy the right hon. Gentleman. I am aware of no proposal so specific in its terms as to which it is possible to make a reasonable estimate upon it.