56. Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESSasked the Chief Secretary whether he can state what is the total amount which has been awarded for malicious injury claims in Ireland during the last year; whether many of these claims are not contested by the local authorities concerned, with the result that awards are being made in many instances without a proper scrutiny; and whether, with a view to avoiding an undue expenditure of public money, the Government will appoint a Commission forthwith to re-examine all such claims and fix, with the assistance of experts, the amount that should be awarded in each case, and to make recommendations as to how the liability for these payments is to be met, seeing that in most cases those who inflict the damage are not ratepayers and often come from outside the districts chargeable?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThe summarised records of the total amount awarded over the whole of Ireland last year in respect of criminal and malicious injury claims are not at the moment complete. In the case, however, of those councils and boroughs which have repudiated their liabilities, the total of the unpaid awards is approximately £2,500,000. Of this amount £155,000 has been discharged from the local taxation account under the Provisions of the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act. I am aware that the vast majority of these claims are not contested by the councils concerned, whose inaction in this matter may result in grave prejudice to the interests of the ratepayers. The suggestion that in these circumstances a Commission should be appointed to review the awards shall receive careful consideration.
§ Mr. WATERSONCan the right hon. Gentleman say how much the National 1122 Exchequer has had to pay in the shape of compensation for these claims?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODVery little, very little.
§ Mr. DEVLINWhy is it very little, when you have done all the harm?
§ Mr. WATERSONThen we may take it that the armed Forces of the Crown have not been responsible for anything?
Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESSWill the right hon. Gentleman, while taking into consideration whether or not a Committee shall be appointed, take early steps to prevent further public moneys being paid out on these uncontested claims, and before the matter has been further looked into?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThe money is not paid from the Exchequer on these claims. In cases where the Council refuse to recognise the authority of this House, and to acknowledge the law of England, and decline to be represented by counsel, the Council's refusal prejudices ratepayers who are primarily responsible for the damage.
Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESSYes, but apart from the injustice to the Exchequer will the right hon. Gentleman consider the injustice to the ratepayers of Ireland, and see that their money is not paid out owing to the default of their local authorities to contest these claims?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThe point made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman is a most important one. As the law now stands, the local authority should be, and in all cases where the Council is not acting recalcitrantly is, represented before the County Court Judge in the assessing of damages. The proper authority for the ratepayer to look to is the local authority, and that he has the power to elect. I may add in reference to my previous answer that money is paid out of Exchequer grants in the way of compensation to the widows and dependants of members of the Crown Forces who are murdered or wounded.
§ Mr. ORMSBY-GOREWill the right hon. Gentleman take into account that many of these ratepayers are not Sinn Feiners at all, and that they ought to have some chance to say something before these matters come before the Courts, and 1123 not be compelled to pay enormous rates for destruction in which they have had no part?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThat is a real difficulty—
§ Mr. DEVLINIn cases such as those recited by Judge Bodkin and other learned judges to the effect that this damage has been done by uniformed officers of the Crown—damage to property belonging to innocent persons—is the Exchequer prepared to meet these claims and pay the damages assessed by these learned judges?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI cannot agree to that—
§ Mr. DEVLINWhy not? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what justification there is for withholding from innocent people the damages given to them by the judges when these judges have declared in the clearest and most precise form that these damages have been brought about by the servants of the Crown in Ireland?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI have tried to answer the question as well as I could. If the hon. Member will put his supplementary question down I will endeavour to get him an answer. [HON. MEMBERS: "We have asked for it half a dozen times."] We are dealing with a very difficult, very technical, and legal point—
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYIt is a perfectly constitutional legal tribunal!
§ Captain REDMONDWhy will the right hon. Gentleman not take the assessment of the legal tribunal in these matters, that is, the County Court judge?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODBecause it is not the function of the County Court judge, in assessing damages under the Criminal Injuries Act, to allocate the blame to individuals; his business is to find out if the damage is malicious, and to assess the amount. That is one of the reasons why the decision of the County Court judge cannot be taken as final. Another reason is that there is no one, in the present circumstances, in the troubled areas, representing the ratepayers, and therefore the damages may be inflated.
§ Mr. DEVLINDoes the right hon. Gentleman not recognise the moral right to accept the loyal decision of his own Judges in Ireland when they assess damages to innocent people who have had their property destroyed, and should that money not be paid by the Government whose agents are responsible for this destruction? Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise the moral right of carrying out the orders of Judges in Ireland?
§ Colonel GREIGCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether the £2,500,000 includes the damage done to police barracks throughout Ireland?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODYes.
§ Mr. LUNNCan the right hon. Gentleman state definitely when this independent committee of inquiry will be set up?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI cannot say anything more.