§ Considered in Committee.
§ [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament—
§ The SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Mr. Churchill)This is a purely formal Resolution to regularise the position of the Air Navigation Bill, which received its Second Reading on 9th August and 1293 was then committed to Standing Committee A. The pressure of business in the few remaining days before the Adjournment did not admit of the Resolution coming before the House, but it is necessary to pass it to enable the Standing Committee to carry out its work. When we had a discussion on the Second Heading it was generally agreed that there were points which ought to be raised in Committee, and it is to that stage that I suggest discussion should be deferred. The Financial Clauses could not be proceeded with in Committee unless this Resolution is passed. It has been approved by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and a White Paper, in accordance with recent practice, has been circulated which explains the grounds for the Resolution.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYThe Air Navigation Bill was taken in August last, and owing, I daresay, to pressure on the House, it was, I thought, very much scamped. It was not the fault of the Government. There was practically no interest taken in it. [Interruption.] Yes, I made a speech on it. It did not receive the consideration that I think it deserved, and it was the first Bill of the sort brought into the House in peace time, when aerial matters could really be discussed without any restraint or any fear of giving information away and that sort of thing. I rather regret that the Minister for Air has, in the first place, not given us a rather lengthier explanation of these financial provisions, because, as laid down in the Memorandum supplied in the Vote Office, they are not very clear, and he has not told us, or been able to tell us in the Memorandum, approximately what the amount of money involved is. In the Memorandum it says probably the expenditure will be about £5,000 a year for the next three or four years. Another sum is mentioned lower down, I think for investigation into accidents, of some £2,500. I reckoned up what I thought the amount would be, but I did not think this Resolution would be taken to-day, and I have not the table with me. The sums mentioned are vague. I am not in any way approaching the matter from the point of view of trying to cut down expenditure. Quite the contrary. I have spoken once or twice on the Estimates from that point of view. I have attempted to cut down expendiure, and I think most hon. Members will agree that if it can be done it 1294 ought to be done, but this is one of the few exceptions. With regard to expenditure on developing our aerial services, commercial or otherwise, my complaint is, not that we are spending enough, but that the Air is still the Cinderella of the Services and the Cinderella of our commercial services as well. Shipping, the railways and other means of transport get much more money and much more attention and many more officials—I do not know if that is an advantage—than does the Air Force. Yet the air, the little Cinderella, is going to be the ruling princess before very long, and the country that does not pay her homage now and look after the little Cinderella, and clothe her decently, is going to be very much out of favour in the court of the world. These are my two objections to and disappointments in connection with the right hon. Gentleman's speech.
However much I criticise the right hon. Gentleman in other matters or attempt to criticise him—[Laughter]—yes, I admit that I have met with very poor success; it has not been my fault; the wish has been there, but the ability has been lacking—however much I do criticise the right hon. Gentleman, I do look on him as the Member of the Government who, when at the Admiralty, showed vision in aerial matters, and I am looking to see that vision displayed to-day in his present position at the War Office in connection with this important subject. I suppose most hon. Members read the very interesting proceedings of the loosely called Air Parliament, a sort of air soviet, which met recently. It was a most encouraging meeting, and the commissaries who attended delivered some extremely interesting facts and opinions about the air. I regret very much that I could not attend. [Laughter.] I would remind hon. Members that I do know something of this subject. For some little time at the Admiralty I was the officer on the Admiralty staff responsible for the future-planning of aerial policy at sea. In a way, I was the liaison officer between the Air Ministry at the Hotel Cecil and the Admiralty Plans Division. I know very little, I admit, but still I am interested in the matter, and I realise the tremendous possibilities of the air. I read the accounts of the recent Air Conference, and the thread that ran through all the discussions in that conference was the necessity of adequate assistance from the 1295 State. The Memorandum which has been issued in connection with this Resolution does not state any sort of estimated amount of money that is going to be supplied in that way by the Bill. On the Air Estimates and those dealing with the civil branch of the Air Ministry it was stated that aerial transport was going to fly by itself, and that was received with great disappointment by those interested in the matter, financially and otherwise.
The CHAIRMANThis is very much in the air. These remarks might be suitable for the Estimates of last year or next year, but not for this Resolution dealing with the powers to be taken in the Bill.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI am sorry that I was so much at sea. What I am trying to do is to ask for more details in regard to the Financial Resolution for carrying into effect the Air Bill of last August. In that Bill provision is made for assisting in certain ways aerial navigation, and I should like to know what sum of money has been set aside for that purpose. I do not wish to criticise the way in which that money is being spent, but I would like to know the amount. I fear that the sum is not sufficient for what is a vitally useful purpose. Heaven knows the right hon. Gentleman spends enough money on perfectly useless purposes. How much is going to be set aside for vital developments of aerial navigation in this country? It is of tremendous importance, just as important as, or more important than, our future as a sea power. These are the vital years just now in which all the difference can be made. If we are generous in assisting air transport we shall be a great air power in the future. I appeal to the right, hon Gentleman to give us some more information in Parliament. It is all very well for him to make his speeches in an air soviet, but we are the people responsible to the country, and we should have more information before we pass this Resolution.
§ Mr. HOGGEI should like to under stand precisely what it is we are asked to vote. We have already provided in our Estimates for the maintenance of air service all the money that my right hon. Friend has asked for this year. This Resolution asks for power to spend extra money 1296 under two Clauses of the Bill. A great deal of the criticism of my hon. and gallant Friend is obviously not relevant to this proposal, though I do not share the view of hon. Member opposite that a great deal of such criticism is not necessary from time to time. A great many hon. Members do not realise what they are being asked to spend. Probably not one Member in ten has seen Command Paper No. 729, which explains. [Laughter.] It ill becomes Members who have not taken the trouble, to laugh at hon. Members who do take that trouble, even if they annoy other hon. Members by their criticism. I notice that under Clause 5 it is suggested that the cost for the next three or four years will be £5,000 a year for attending the International Commission for Air Navigation. I presume that that is industrial air navigation. My right hon. Friend suggests that this only means a representative with a very small clerical staff. With all his faults the Secretary of State for Air, I believe, is not favourable to the waste of public money. He suggests here the creation of a kind of special department, in London, of this International Commission. The right hon. Gentleman believes in the enormous development, on the industrial side, of air navigation. If that is the development contemplated, it cannot be done on this small provision. We have had experience of deputations to International Peace Commissions. We know the clerical staffs that have been employed. One heard the other day of the enormous quantity of cigars consumed in Belgium. The right hon. Gentleman knows how these things develop. We are entitled to ask him whether he will pin himself to the figure mentioned.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI do not think we shall reach it. The only intention is to provide for our representation on the International Commission. How often and how long the Commission may sit we do not know, but that will decide how long our representative will be there. Unless the matter develops very much more than I anticipate, I do not foresee the appointment of a special officer, but rather the appointment of one of the existing staff. My hope is that the work will be done for less than the sum asked for. Of course it has all to be revoted with the Estimates next year; every detail will come up for review by the House and will be subject to the full criticism of hon. Members.
§ Mr. HOGGEThen will my right hon. Friend be willing to agree to the passing of this Financial Resolution on a minimum basis? What is the use of issuing a memorandum whiih says that the cost shall not exceed £5,000 a year for the next three or four years, if from year to year we are to have an opportunity of discussing the expenditure?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLWe cannot get on with the Bill or with detailed discussion in Committee unless the Resolution is passed.
§ Mr. HOGGEDoes the paragraph as to the investigation of accidents refer to accidents to industrial machines only, and in this country?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLTo British machines, wherever they are.
§ Mr. HOGGEDo you mean commercial machines owned by the State or commercial machines owned by a private firm?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLIf it is a Government machine, a military machine, of course when an accident happens there is a very careful and thorough investigation. We have the officers. They meet at a Court of Enquiry and make their report. All that is paid for when you pay for the officers and staff of the Department. When you deal with the civil side, we want to know, in the case of accidents, what happened to the civil machine, how it happened, and what is the best way of preventing such an accident happening again. A sum of £2,500 is a very moderate amount in order to keep an official record and to make a uniform study of those accidents.
§ Mr. HOGGEI only desired to know if an accident happened in France to a machine belonging to a big firm in this country, whether that would be inquired into?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLFor the public.
§ Mr. HOGGEWe cannot spend very much this year, and the House will have a further opportunity of investigating it.
§ Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZONOne of the most difficult things for a new Member to do is to discuss a Financial Resolution. I cannot review aeronautics like the hon. Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), nor can 1298 I discuss the vision of the Secretary of State for Air. We have to deal here with two definite items. The first is the investigation of accidents. The history of the investigation of accidents started with the Royal Aero Club forming their own committee to look into accidents; that committee gathered very valuable data. When the Air Ministry started the Government took over the control of aeronautics and granted a certificate of air worthiness. Once they had done that it was incumbent on them to take over the investigation of accidents and to see if possible what was the cause of them. Very valuable deductions have been made for the investigations and I think it would be a pity not to continue them. The second point for which money is asked is for the establishment of a very remarkable new body called the International Air Navigation Convention. We have read in Kipling's "Night Mail" of the possibility of an "A.B.C." or Aerial Board of Control, and this is really the start of that. There is to be an office in Paris, with representatives from each country, which is to decide on the more technical branches of aviation and to deal with other matters. Ultimately, no doubt, this body will more and more control aviation in this world, and it may later and I hope it will become the "A.B.C." Many believe that internationalisation of this kind makes for the peace of the world, and I hope the body may get to work as soon as possible.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI am sorry the right hon. Gentleman has not seen fit to tell us a little more about this expenditure. Speaking only for myself, my conclusion is that we are not spending enough on this sort of work. So much on this side of the Committee do we echo the admirable sentiments of the last speaker that I think we look to aerial transport altogether in the long run to obliterate the artificial national frontiers, and when that happens people like the right hon. Gentleman and others will be unable to exploit and prostitute the different sorts of patriotism and super-patriotism that fester on either side of the frontiers.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.