HC Deb 23 November 1920 vol 135 cc319-31

(1) This Act shall come into operation on the first day of September, nineteen hundred and twenty."

Sir A. BOSCAWEN

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "September nineteen hundred and twenty" and to insert instead thereof the words "January, nineteen hundred and twenty-one."

When the Bill was originally brought in the hope was that it might be passed before the Adjournment of the House, in which case the 1st of September, 1920, would have been the date for the commencement of the measure. Owing to the delay of carrying the Bill through the House, however, it was found necessary to postpone that date, and to fix January 1st of next year as the time of coming into operation.

Major M. WOOD

I am very sorry that this Amendment has been put down. It will deprive a large number of farmers throughout the country of the compensation which they expected. I do not want to discuss the point at length, because I have already urged it in Committee upstairs and in this House. After the Caxton Hall speech a year ago, a great number of notices to quit were served on farmers all over the country, because landlords thought they would probably be able to make their notices effective before this Act come into operation. In nearly every case those notices were to become effective on the 28th November; at any rate, that is the case in Scotland. If this Amendment is to go into the Bill it will mean that all these farmers are going to lose the advantage of the Bill. If that is the case, they have been tricked by the Caxton Hall speech. I protest against this holding out of a promise to the farmers and then taking it away from them.

Sir A. BOSCAWEN

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is really in error in thinking that that result would follow. By an Amendment, already carried in this House, no notice will be effective unless it is given after the 20th May. That means it will not be effective as regards quitting, in the case of twelve months' notice, until the 20th of May next year. Therefore, the alteration in date would not in any way have the effect he suggests.

Major WOOD

That is drawing a distinction between a tenant who is to receive six months' notice and a tenant who is to receive twelve months' notice. Why draw that distinction? Is not the one tenant as much entitled to notice as the other?

Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY

The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that there were a large number of notices which will not now come within the Act. I merely wish to remove a wrong impression that might be conveyed outside this House by the right hon. Gentleman's speech. He has conveyed the impression that the Bill has not been passed by 1st September owing to the delay in passing it through this House. That is not the cause. The real cause is that the Government did not introduce the Bill early enough in the year. If the speech of the right hon. Gentleman remains, as adducing the only reason for this Bill not having passed, then next it will be suggested that some hon. Members have purposely delayed its passage. Of course, that is not so.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir A. BOSCAWEN

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert a new Sub-section— (2) Part 1 of this Act shall he construed as one with the Act of 1917 and the Corn Production Amendment Act, 1918, and those Acts and Part 1 of this Act may he cited together as the Corn Production Acts, 1917 to 1920.

Lieut.-Colonel ROYDS

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is right to leave in this Amendment the words, "the Corn Production Amendment Act, 1918," because that is repealed by this Bill. The Amendment says that this Bill shall be deemed to be consequent on the Act of 1917, and the amending Act of 1918. In the Schedule you repeal the Amending Act of 1918, and I do not see, therefore, how it can be consequent upon it.

Sir E. POLLOCK

Unless there be some reason for keeping those words in,

FIRST SCHEDULE.
MINOR AMENDMENTS OF AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS ACT, 1908.
Enactment to be Amended. Nature of Amendment.
Section one … … In Sub-section (1), after the word "Act," where that word first occurs, there shall be inserted the words "whether the improvement was or was not an improvement which he was required to make by the terms of his tenancy"; and in paragraph (b) of Sub-section (2) there shall be inserted after the word "crops," where that word first occurs, the words "grown on and."
Section fifteen … … In Sub-section (1), after the word "expended" there shall be inserted the words "and of all costs properly incurred by him in obtaining the charge."
Section sixteen … … After the words "Act shall" there shall be inserted the words "where the charge is obtained by the landlord."
Section twenty-three … In paragraph (iii) the words "for labourers" shall be omitted.
Section thirty-one … … After the word "compensation" there shall be inserted the words "For disturbance or."
Section forty-eight … … For the words "cultivated as a market garden" there shall be substituted the words "cultivated as a market or allotment garden."
First Schedule … … In paragraph (26) there shall be added at end thereof the words "in so far as the amount of the temporary pasture laid down exceeds the amount of the temporary pasture on the holding at the commencement of the tenancy for which the tenant did not pay compensation."
Second Schedule … … In paragraph 10, for the words "sooner than one month or later than two months," there shall be substituted the words "later than one month."

in respect of matters which have already accrued and in respect of which the Amendment of the Act of 1917 by the Act of 1918 is necessary, I think the hon. and gallant Member is right, and there is no sense in keeping the words in. We are much obliged to the hon. and gallant Member, and perhaps he will move to leave out the words, "the Corn Production Amendment Act, 1918."

Lieut.-Colonel ROYDS

I am afraid I cannot move it in that form, because I have a subsequent Amendment which says that the words shall not be deleted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: At the end of Subsection (1) insert: (2) Part I. of this Act shall he construed as one with the Act of 1917, and that Act and Part I of this Act may be cited together as the Corn Production Acts, 1917 to 1920.

At the end of Sub-section (1), after the words last added, insert Part II of this Act shall be construed as one with the Act of 1908, and that Act and Part II of this Act may be cited together as the Agricultural Holdings Acts, 1908 and 1920."—[Sir A. Boscawen.] In the application of this Schedule to Scotland, the references to Sections fifteen, twenty-three and thirty-one of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908, shall not apply; for the references to Sections sixteen and forty-eight of that Act there shall be substituted references to Sections fourteen and thirty-five respectively of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908; and Subsection (1) of Section thirteen of the Agri-

Section five … … … The words "in respect of any improvement comprised in the First Schedule hereto" shall be omitted.—[Sir A. Boscawen.]
Sir E. POLLOCK

I beg to move, in the paragraph beginning "Section fifteen," after "(1)" ["in Sub-section (1)"], to insert the words" after the word 'hereto,' where it first occurs, there shall be inserted the words 'or in respect of compensation for disturbance,' and. This is only to enable the landlord who has to pay compensation for disturbance under this Act to obtain the same charge on his land that he now is able to obtain under the Section in the Act of 1908. Hon. Members will remember that in respect of compensation that has to be paid by the landlord who has a limited interest, such as a tenancy for life, as between him and his successors in title, he is able to make a charge that stands good against those who succeed in the title. These words are necessary for the purpose of enabling a similar charge to be made in respect of compensation in this Act. It really is a matter of machinery to carry out a principle already embodied in the Act of 1908.

Amendment agreed to.

Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph beginning "Section forty-eight," to insert the words After paragraph (17) there shall be added '(18) The special cleaning of unduly foul and weedy land.' I do not want to waste the time of the House in going into this matter, but I submit this is another reasonable subject for full compensation.

Major M. WOOD

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir E. POLLOCK

I think the Mover and the Seconder will agree with me, upon more careful consideration of the Amendment, that it would be rather unfortunate to insert these words. If the land was foul when the tenant took it, then probably that would be a matter

cultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, shall be amended by the insertion after the words "or any part thereof," wherever occurring, of the words "and of the expense of executing and registering the same."

Amendment made: After the paragraph beginning "Section one" insert a new paragraph—

that would be taken into consideration when fixing the rent. If, on the other hand, he himself allowed the land to get foul after he took it the probability is that that was due to neglect of his duties. When you look at the Amendment and consider the words "special cleaning of unduly foul and weedy land" and try to give expression to the meaning of the words, and as to what is special cleaning and what is unduly foul and weedy land, I think you are up against a difficulty. Under the circumstances I am afraid I am unable to accept the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Sir E. POLLOCK

I beg to move, at the beginning of the paragraph "First Schedule," to insert After '(16) Erection of wireworks in hop gardens,' there shall be inserted:—

  • (16a) Provision of permanent sheep-dipping accommodation;
  • (16b) Removal of bracken, gorse, tree roots, boulders or other like obstructions to cultivation; and"
If hon. Members will look at the Order Paper they will see a number of Amendments which are directed to the purpose we have here in view. My right hon. Friend was asked to consider this matter very carefully, and he has chosen the words which I have here, and I think they really cover what I may say is the greatest common measure of agreement upon this matter.

Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the length he has gone in this matter, but there are one or two of the provisions in the Amendments standing lower on the Order Paper which I should like to have been able to move. I presume, if this Amendment is passed, it will not be in order to move them, as they will be cut out. If that is so, all I can do is to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he will not specially consider the points I desire to see put forward. If the right hon. Gentleman cannot provide now, I trust he will consider what may be done in relation to these several important matters in another place.

Sir E. POLLOCK

What the hon. and gallant Gentleman says is too indefinite to be accepted. What the words of the Amendment endeavour to deal with, or are meant to effect, are ordinary farm operations. I find the words very difficult to construe, and if they are placed in Statute, it is by no means easy to say what their effect will be. I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will be content with having achieved a success, and not ask for a triumph.

Major M. WOOD

I am very much indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for the length he has gone, but there is one important point which has not been referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend who moved the Amendment. These particular improvements which have been selected have been put not into Part III of the Schedule as was proposed, but into Part I. There is a great difference between Part I and III, and no mention was made of this by my right hon. Friend in moving the Amendment. It means a great difference in the value of the concessions made, because had they been in Part III the improvements would have been compensated for whether the consent of the landlord had been given or not. As they have been put in now, the consent of the landlord is required, or in the event of no consent being given, the tenant has to go to the agricultural committee and ask them to give a decision against the landlord. That is very unfortunate, because it places the tenant in a difficult position. He is compelled to appeal to an outside body against his landlord. That will not make for friendly relations between the tenant and the landlord. I very much regret that when the Government went so far to meet us in the selection of improvements they did not see fit to put them into Part III.

If the Parliamentary Secretary is going to speak on this Amendment, I shall be glad if he will explain to us the reasons he has for not accepting some of the improvements we have named in our Amendments. Some of them I think are very good. I think we are entitled to some explanation as to these special improvements which have been rejected by him. Finally there is a very small point, but I think it is perhaps more important than it looks. It is always desirable that these Acts of Parliament should be made as intelligible as possible to all those most vitally concerned. There is in this Amendment a reference in (16, b) to bracken, gorse, etc. Gorse is quite unknown in Scotland. No Scottish farmer reading that particular Sub-section would know what was meant by it. Gorse in Scotland is called whin, and it is a pity you should drive the Scottish farmer to a dictionary to understand your meaning. It would be well worth while to put in the words "gorse or whin" so as to make it a little more intelligible. With regard to the Amendment about haulage or other work done by a tenant, the hon. Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Lane-Fox) referring to the question in Committee said: "I think it is a most convenient arrangement that the tenant should do the haulage, for this system has been carried out for so long" and so on.

Mr. GARDINERM

May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill what has been the custom in the past in respect to haulage. If houses or buildings have been erected on a farm it has been customary for the farmer to provide the haulage labour for that purpose and it has been found very, very helpful that the landlord should have this service. If you do not arrange for it the helpful work done by the farmers in the past will not continue in the future, and I would like if possible to have the Amendment referred to included, as everything which conduces to good relationships between farmer and tenant should be maintained.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir E. POLLOCK

I beg to move, in the paragraph beginning "First Schedule" to leave out the words "the amount of the temporary pasture laid down exceeds the amount" and to insert instead thereof the words the value of the temporary pasture on the holding at the time of quitting exceeds the value. Pasture land varies very much in its value, and this Amendment seeks to estimate the pasture at its true value and not by its amount.

Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY

This is a very valuable concession, and I desire to thank the Government for it.

Amendment agreed to.

Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph beginning "First Schedule," to insert the words "Special regard shall be paid to the sowing out of natural grasses and clovers."

This an important Amendment. Experiments have shown that the sowing out of natural grasses and clovers effect a very great improvement, and I hope the Government will be able to accept this proposal.

Major M. WOOD

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir E. POLLOCK

I do not think these words are necessary. You want to have something that will grow well, and, so far as you can grow natural grasses to that extent, you increase the pasture and its value. We have already accepted words to the, effect that we are to estimate the pasture which is grown by its value; and, incidentally, one of the features which makes the pasture valuable is that it is composed of natural grasses which are likely to thrive on the land. Any arbitrator with knowledge would pay attention to the sowing of natural grasses as being far more likely to be successful, and, therefore, any compensation in respect of it would be calculated on that basis. With regard to the actual words of my hon. and gallant

SECOND SCHEDULE. ENACTMENTS REPEALED.
Session and Chapter. Short Title. Extent of Repeal.
7 & Geo. 5, c. 45. The Corn Production Act, 1917. Sub-section (1) of Section two; in Sub-section (1) of Section nine the words from" (b) that for the purpose of" to the words "as the case may be," both inclusive, and in the proviso to that Subsection the words "or whether it is undesirable in the interest of food production that the change should apply to any portion of the land included in the notice"; in Sub-section (3) of that Section the words "make such Order as seems to them required in the circumstances, either authorising the landlord to determine the tenancy of the holding, or determining the tenancy by virtue of the Order"; in Sub-section (4) of that Section the words "If within three months after the Board have entered on any land, the person who was in occupation of the land at the time of the entry so requires"; in Subsection (9) of that Section the words "in respect of which any notice is served or Order made under this Section or"; Sub-section (2) of Section nineteen.
8 & 9 Geo. 5, c. 35. The corn Production (Amendment) Act, 1918. The whole Act.

Friend's Amendment, I find great difficulty in ascertaining how the arbitrator is to pay "special regard" to the sowing out of natural grasses and clovers, or what the effect of "special regard" really is. I hope the hon. and gallant Member will recognise that we have in reality covered the point already in the Bill.

Mr. GARDINER

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for having looked at the matter in such a fair and reasonable manner. When you ask that special regard shall be paid to any particular matter in a valuation, I am afraid you are doing something which is not always desirable. So far as the sowing of natural grasses and clovers are concerned, I think that in the past there has not been sufficient value placed upon the improvements which have been made in this way. If the right hon. Gentleman can possibly consider the suggestion which is contained in this Amendment, I hope he will do so.

Amendment negatived.

Further Amendment made: After the word "amended" ["shall be amended by the insertion after the words 'or any part thereof'"] insert the words "by the insertion after the word 'hereto,' of the words 'or in respect of compensation for disturbance and.'"—[Sir E. Pollock.]

Sir E. POLLOCK

I beg to move at the beginning of the Schedule to insert the words:

14 & 15 Vict., c. 25. The Landlord and Tenant Act, 1851. In Section one, the words from "Provided always," to the end of the Section.
It is necessary to eliminate the words which stand in Section 1 of the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1851. As we are dealing in this Bill with the notice to quit, in order to clear up any ambiguity, it is necessary to remove the words which I now move to omit.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: At the end of paragraph beginning "7 and 8 George V., c. 46," insert the words "in the Third Schedule, the proviso to paragraph (a) of Article 8."—[Sir A. Boscawen.]

Lieut.-Colonel ROYDS

I have an Amendment on the Paper to leave out the last paragraph of this Schedule. The Bill proposes to repeal the Corn Production (Amendment) Act of 1918, and I wish to leave out the repealing of that Act. The ploughing up Orders have been made under the Defence of the Realm Act, and they will continue under that Act, and compensation will be awarded under the provisions of the Corn Production (Amendment) Act, 1918. If you repeal the Corn Production (Amendment) Act I do not quite see where a person will have to go to claim compensation. I am referring to the ploughing up Orders in respect to claims which have already arisen, and they do not know what the loss is at the present time.

Mr. SPEAKER

Would this Amendment involve an increase in the charge? I would like the hon. and gallant Member to say who would be responsible for the compensation under his proposal to continue the Corn Production (Amendment) Act, which provides for compensation in certain cases. Who is going to pay that compensation?

Lieut.-Colonel ROYDS

There is no suggestion that the compensation will be taken away, but I want to know under which Act will the claims I have mentioned come, whether under this Bill or the old Act?

Sir E. POLLOCK

If the hon. and gallant Member will turn to Clause 28, Sub-section (2), he will see the following provision: (2) The enactments mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that Schedule. That is what we are dealing with at the present moment. The same Clause, under Sub-section (c) provides: The right of any person to recover compensation in respect of anything done or suffered under the said powers before the commencement of this Act. These are provisions which the repeal does not prejudice or affect.

Lieut.-Colonel ROYDS

If the right hon. Gentleman says my point is already covered, then I am satisfied.

Sir E. POLLOCK

It is.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill, as amended in the Standing Committee and on Consideration, be re-committed to a Committee of the whole House in respect of Clause 4 and the Clauses 'Application of Act to cottage on holdings under Act of 1908,' and 'Dwelling-houses occupied by workmen employed in agriculture,' and in respect of the Amendments and new Clauses standing in the name of Sir Arthur Griffith-Boscawen, and that in Committee on the re-committed Bill the Chairman in respect of Clause 4 do put forthwith, without Debate, the Question, 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill,' and that in respect of the new Clause,' Power to enforce proper cultivation,' he shall put only the Question, 'That the Clause be added to the Bill,' which shall be decided without debate."—[Sir A. Boscawen.]

8.0 P.M.

Mr. ACLAND

I understand that on this re-committal Motion only one speech is allowed for and against. I do not oppose this Motion, because I think it is on the whole quite reasonable. I have been in the House for fourteen years, and I do not remember any case in which a recommittal Motion has stated before that no discussion may take place on a new Clause which is moved. I do not think it is an unreasonable proposal on this occasion, because I think it is for the convenience of everybody that the Clause, as amended, should be substituted for what we have already got in the Bill. But it would seem to me, but for the special circumstances of this case, to be rather a strong order to have a recommittal Motion which could only be discussed to a very limited extent.

Mr. SPEAKER

I could not take this Motion as a Motion for re-committal such as was contemplated by the Standing Order. This Motion contains a variety of important matters, and therefore I could not take it as one coming within the ten minutes Rule.

Bill accordingly considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]