HC Deb 10 November 1920 vol 134 cc1311-4

(1) For the purpose of the provisions of this Act relating to existing officers, any officer shall be deemed to be an Irish officer who is serving or employed in Irish services within the meaning of this Act, and the fact that the salary of an Irish officer is provided in whole or in part out of funds administered by the Government Department in which he serves, or out of an allowance voted for the office expenses of the office in which he is employed, or out of fees, instead of being charged on the Consolidated Fund or paid out of moneys provided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, shall not prevent that officer being treated as an officer in the Civil Service of the Crown.

Captain CRAIG

I beg to move, after the word "Act" ["provisions of this Act"], to insert the words "including the Standing Solicitor to the Local Government Board for Ireland."

An Amendment similar to this was moved in Committee and rejected by the Government. I now move the Amendment, because the individual on whose behalf it has been placed on the Paper will be very badly treated if the Amendment is not carried. This individual, and his father before him, has been solicitor for the Local Government Board, and their occupancy of the office covers a period of nearly 50 years. Both of them, I understand, have practically given the whole of their time to the work connected with the solicitorship of the board during that period. Although he may not be strictly entitled to be considered as a pensionable officer, the fact that two lives have been spent in the interests of the Local Government Board entitles him at least to some superannuation allowance or some pension at the end of the service. To strengthen the case, I may say that it is not an unheard of thing for a standing solicitor—an expression to which excep- tion was taken in Committee—to be treated in this way, for in the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1919—against which every Irishman voted because amongst other things it brought in proportional representation in Ireland-contained a Clause dealing with officers of the various Departments in Ireland. Clause 8, which deals with certain pensions and emoluments, says: For the purposes of this Section, any person duly appointed standing solicitor of a local authority before the passing of this Act shall be deemed to be a pensionable officer of the local authority, notwithstanding that his whole time is not devoted to the duties of his office. That provision fits in with the position of the standing solicitor of the Local Government Board, on whose behalf I move this Amendment. If it was right and proper that officials should be treated in the way specified in the Act of 1910, it is not unreasonable to ask the Government to trout this gentleman in the same way in the present Bill.

Mr. MOLES

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

I wish I had not to continue to refuse to accept these Amendments, but, as the hon. Member admitted in moving it, this gentleman is not strictly entitled to be a pensionable officer. The hon. Member claimed, however, that though he was not strictly entitled, yet by reason of the long service of his father and himself, this House ought to give him something to which he is not entitled. This House is not in the position to judge the merits or otherwise of this gentleman's service. I am told that he did carry on a general practice, besides his work as solicitor to the Irish Local Government Board, and that for the work he did as solicitor to the Irish Local Government Board he was paid his bills of costs in the ordinary way. He was not paid a salary. He was not a salaried officer, and he is far removed from the category of those who are ordinarily entitled to pension. That he has some special merits I am quite willing to accept from my hon. Friend and if that merit is pressed upon the Treasury concerned, which may be the Treasury of the Southern Parliament or the Treasury of the Northern Parliament, proper recognition could, no doubt, be made of his services; but it is not in this House or in this Bill that we should grant exceptional treatment.

Sir E. CARSON

I think the speech of the right hon. Gentleman was very ungenerous. It is not a case of asking for a pension or an allowance for an officer who has hitherto been unpensionable because there is no alteration in the circumstances. What the right hon. Gentleman has left out of consideration is the fact that by the passing of this Bill you are going to terminate his office. That is the point. You are going to break up the Local Government Board of which he has been standing solicitor for 30 years or thereabouts. He is a most distinguished gentleman. He had a highly successful collegiate career and wont to the Bar, but afterwards, when his father was an old man, he gave up his profession to serve with the Local Government Board and take over his father's business. I quite admit what the right hon. Gentleman says, that if he v-as allowed to go on, and if you were not by Act of Parliament driving him out of his position, he would have no ground for pension, because he is not a pensionable officer.

But is it really worth the while of this House, when we find it necessary to pass a Bill which abolishes the Local Government Board as it exists, and starts two entirely different systems, one for the North and one for the South, to say this Gentleman, after his long and honourable career in a not very easy position, "because you have hitherto not been a pensionable officer, we claim the right to turn you out by Act of Parliament, and say you are not to get a single shilling of compensation"? It is a most unreasonable attitude to take up, and is only taken up because he is utterly helpless in the matter.

My right hon. Friend (Sir Worthington-Evans) has paid no attention to the fact quoted by my hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Craig) as to what was done under the Local Government Ireland Act last year. The solicitors to local authorities in Ireland in most cases have not given their whole time to that work. In nearly all cases they have been solicitors who have had a general practice and have also acted for the local authorities. Notwithstanding: that, that Act gave power to deal with them analogous to what is asked to be done here. I think that the Government is doing a gross injustice to this Gentleman in saying, "You have served faithfully in your office, but we are going to deprive you of that office, and you are the one man who is to stand oat without any consideration being given to him under the Bill." It is very harsh treatment, particularly having regard to the fact, as I am able to state without the slightest fear of contradiction, that this Gentleman has been a most efficient solicitor in conducting the affairs of the Local Government Board. Nobody knows that better than my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General, who no doubt has met him officially in the conduct of his work. I would ask the Government to reconsider the matter, and to see whether it is worth while making financial provisions for everybody who is deprived of office when this Bill passes, and to give this exceptional treatment to this Gentleman.

Amendment negatived.