CLAUSE 53.—(Continuation of service of, and compensation to, existing officers.) (Hansard, 10 November 1920)

§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words Provided further that, notwithstanding any rule, regulation, or practice of the Treasury to the contrary, the Irish Insurance Commissioners shall be entitled to all the rights and privileges of established Civil servants under the Superannuation Acts in regard to pensions and other rights, and in calculating said pensions, such pensions shall be based on the number of years that have olapsed since the entry of the said Insurance Commissioners into any branch of the public service in a temporary or a permanent capacity. This proviso was put in, on a private Member's Amendment in Committee, and it was accepted provisionally, in order that it might be reconsidered before Report. The object of that Amendment was to give to a particular lady, who is an Irish Insurance Commissioner, the same pension rights as are enjoyed by her male colleagues. I understand that she has since become an established Civil Servant, and, therefore, the words inserted in Committee have become superfluous for the purpose for which they were inserted. In any event, the words of the proviso as it now stands could not be accepted, because they give far greater rights than would be given to a male Commissioner. No injustice will be done to this lady, as she has now become an established Civil Servant, and the proviso is therefore unnecessary.

§ Sir E. CARSON
The right hon. Gentleman has given us a very perfunctory reason for leaving out these words. I see nothing in this proviso about any lady. What it does is to prevent the 1306 Irish Insurance Commissioners from being unfairly dealt with, and to give them the same privileges as Civil Servants. I do not really understand why the right hon. Gentleman wants to take out what was put in in Committee after argument, and I do not know what is meant by his reference to a particular lady. If it would apply to one lady it would apply to the whole of these Commissioners, and I should like some explanation as to why, when it was resolved in Committee, that the status of Civil Servants should be given to these Commissioners, this proviso should be now left out.

§ Major O'NEILL
I think that my right hon. Friend was perhaps not in the Committee when this question was discussed. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister without Portfolio is correct in saying that primarily this provisio was put in—I moved the Amendment myself—in the interests of Mrs. Dickie, who is the one lady Insurance Commissioner in Ireland. She was then in a worse position as regards pension than the other members of the Insurance Commission, who are men. The Minister has told us that, since this proviso was inserted, Mrs. Dickie has become an established Civil Servant. As a matter of fact, she was an established Civil Servant before the words were put in, but I understand that —owing, no doubt, to the acceptance by the Government of these words—Mrs. Dickie has been granted certain limited pension rights which would not otherwise have been granted to her. That does not mean, however, that her case has been entirely satisfied, because the last few words of the proviso are and in calculating said pensions such pensions shall be based on the number of years that have elapsed since the entry of the said Insurance Commissioners into any branch of the public service in a temporary or a permanent capacity. The men members of the Irish Insurance Commission are not subject to certain Treasury rules which exist to the detriment of married women in the Civil Service. Mrs. Dickie, by reason of being a married woman, has not been able to claim the same pension rights as the men. If these words had stood she would have been placed in the same position as they were, and her case is a particularly hard one because I suppose she is one of the best known and one of the ablest of Civil Servants in the whole of the Civil Service 1307 of the United Kingdom, a woman who, by dint of long, strenuous work, has attained to the very highest position in the Civil Service as one of the National Health Insurance Commissioners for Ireland, and all that the Government has granted her since the Committee stage of the Bill has been pension rights in respect of the number of years during which she has been an established Civil Servant, and I think that was only given to her the year before last, whereas if these words were included she would be entitled to claim probably 15 or 20 years' excellent loyal service in the Civil Service. I recognise that the Government has met this lady to some extent, but in view of the very difficult position in which she may be placed under the new form of government in Ireland, they would not be going too far if they admitted the whole of her previous service in the Civil Service as service towards her pension.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
On appoint of Order. I understand the Amendment is that in the name of my right hon. Friend (Sir L. Worthington-Evans), to leave out from the beginning of line 42 to the end of line 7 on page 43. Is that the Amendment?

§ Major O'NEILL
Yes.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
It does not make sense according to my Bill. There is no line 42 on page 42 and there is no line 7 in Clause 53.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
The right hon. Baronet has got hold of the wrong Bill.

§ Mr. DENIS HENRY
My right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) called attention to the fact that this was a perfectly general Clause, but the facts are as stated by my hon. and gallant Friend (Major O'Neill). The other Insurance Commissioners, two gentlemen, are already on the footing of established Civil servants, and were at the time the Amendment was put down, and there is nothing at all required in the way of legislation for them. Mrs. Dickie was in a different position. She was not then an established Civil servant, but since then she has been put on precisely the same footing as the male members of the Board. Long before she became an Insurance Commissioner she was an inspector of boarded-nut children—a totally different office 1308 under totally different circumstances— and her claim now is to have her pension calculated not upon her position as an established Civil servant, namely an Insurance Commissioner, but to have it calculated upon her former position as inspector of boarded-out children, which was unestablished. The Treasury have recognised the position and put her on exactly the same footing as the male commissioners who serve with her, but they cannot recognise the position that her service in a different office is to be added to her years of service and that is the reason why we ask that these words should be left out. My right hon. Friend (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) in Committee said: I will take the Amendment as it stands and consider it before the Report stage, and he took it, but it was purely provisional acceptance in order to see that no injustice was done to the lady.