HC Deb 10 November 1920 vol 134 cc1212-8

(1) It shall be the duty of the Council of Ireland, at or as soon as may be after their first meeting, to frame a scheme for the establishment of second Houses of the Parliaments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland.

(3) A scheme framed under this Section shall be submitted forthwith to the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the House of Commons of Northern Ireland for their consideration, and if the scheme is confirmed by identical Acts of the Parliaments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland it shall have effect as if enacted in this Act, but may be repealed or altered by identical Acts of those Parliaments.

Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words and to submit the scheme to the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the House of Commons of Northern Ireland for their consideration. If the scheme submitted to the said Houses in pursuance of the foregoing provisions is not confirmed in manner hereafter provided the Council may at any time thereafter, if it appears to them that they can usefully so do, frame a further scheme for the purpose aforesaid, and submit the same to the said Houses, and so from time to time as occasion arises. This, and other Amendments I shall have to propose to this Clause, are designed to meet points raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dun-cairn (Sir E. Carson) the other day in Committee. It was thought that, as the Clause was originally drafted, the Council would be entitled to submit a scheme once, and if that did not prove acceptable to the House it could not present another scheme. This Amendment is intended to make it clear that if they think there is a reasonable likelihood of its being accepted they can submit another scheme. I think with the other Amendments I am submitting we are meeting the difficulties pointed out by my right hon. Friend.

Mr. RONALD McNEILL

I am not quite certain what the understanding was between the right hon. Member for Dun-cairn and the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. I understand that as the Clause is now framed the scheme for the Second Chambers must be identical, both for the North and the South. I would suggest that under the terms of this Amendment it will not be open to the Council to frame different schemes for North and South.

Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

I do not think that point arises here. An identical Act might be passed, but with different schedules for the North and the South. The schemes might be quite different, but they would be in schedules to an identical Act, and I imagine that is the form which the legislation will take. There is nothing in the Clause which requires each Second Chamber to be identical with the other. The only point is that the scheme, whatever it is, has to be passed by an identical Act, that is all.

Mr. McNEILL

If my right hon. Friend can give me an assurance, endorsed by the Law Officers of the Crown, that that will be the result I am quite satisfied, but I should have thought that the Clause as now proposed would not have the elasticity which he suggests it possesses.

Colonel NEWMAN

Assuming it is found impossible to form a House of Commons for Southern Ireland, will the Committee composed of Members of the Privy Council, or their nominees, who apparently will form a temporary nominated House of Commons, have power to submit these schemes and act in every way on identical terms with the North of Ireland Parliament?

Mr. THOMAS BROWN

Providing the scheme for the South is quite different from that for the North, and that that is intended to be possible, would it not meet the case to let the paragraph read "the scheme or schemes"?

Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

I have consulted the Attorney-General for Ireland and he confirms what I have said that there may be a different scheme under these provisions for the North and the South, and the only things which have to be identical are the Acts to be put into operation. There is another point which we are willing to consider, and if necessary we will insert words in another place to meet it. The duty is cast on the Council to frame schemes. It may be argued that if any such scheme is not accepted the Parliaments will be in some way handicapped and will be unable to go on as single Chamber Parliaments. We believe the words as they stand in the Bill are sufficient to cover that. If, however, we find they are not sufficient, other words will have to be introduced in another place for the purpose of making it quite clear. If the Parliament of Southern Ireland is nominated it will have the same power as the elected Parliament would have. It will appoint twenty persons to the Council of Ireland, and the Council of Ireland will be constituted and will function exactly as if the Parliament for the South of Ireland was an elected Parliament.

Brigadier - General COCKERILL

I would like to ask if the Council which is to have the power to prepare schemes may do so by means of a few selected persons, so that the task will not necessarily have to be undertaken by the whole of the members of the Council. It seems to me it might be possible to arrive far more easily at some scheme if you did not have the full Council of forty members sitting to frame it. Would it not be possible for the full Council to delegate the work to one or two members? I imagine there is nothing in the Clause which would prevent that, and I suggest it would be a step on the road to unity. Will the right hon. Gentleman agree to insert words which will make it clear that that may be done? There is one other point I want to put to him, and that is whether it would not be possible here or in another place to enlarge the scope of this Clause? My right hon. Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson), in the speech which he made on Monday—a speech which seemed to me to be full of hope for the possibility of a settlement of Ireland—looked apparently to the Council as an ultimate means of securing union. I would like to ask whether it would not be possible to give the Council power by means of indentical Acts to frame schemes rather more extended than the present one. It might, for example, be given power to frame a scheme for the establishment of a Parliament for the whole of Ireland. The Clause following this deals with the question of the establishment of a Parliament for the whole of Ireland, and reference to it will show that there is power for the two Parliaments by identical Acts to establish a Parliament for the whole of Ireland. But there is no power given to any outside body to bring the two Parliaments together for the purpose, and it seems to me it might be of very great value if this Council, which is intended to be a great unifying factor under this Bill, had power to initiate some scheme which might lead to unity. I know the origin of this Clause. I know the Clause was intended to meet a pledge given by the Government on Monday, and on that occasion I found myself in some difficulty, because I was not quite clear that the words then uttered really met the case. I voted against it, therefore, but I certainly did not do so in any hostility to the Clause, and I think that if some words could be devised to give the Council power to initiate a scheme of that sort, it might greatly increase its value. If I may add one more suggestion, it is that the Council might have power to frame an Amendment to this Act itself by a Resolution of both Parliaments.

Mr. SPEAKER

This Clause relates only to the establishment of second Houses.

Brigadier-General COCKERILL

I bow to your decision, Sir. If my right hon. Friend can meet me in the direction I have indicated, in another place, I shall be grateful to him.

Sir J. BUTCHER

There is very great doubt whether, under the Clause as it stands, there is any power for the Council to prepare separate schemes. The words in the Clause and in the Amendment to the Clause are "frame a scheme," and then it goes on "and to submit the scheme." Throughout the whole of the Clause the reference is to one scheme, and to one scheme only. Before the Bill goes to another place the Government should really consider whether the words do not want more consideration.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

If my right hon. Friend will look at the terms of his own Amendment he will find that he has got into this curious position: that if he submits a scheme to both Houses, and one House accepts it and the other does not, he has to go on submitting the alternative or second scheme to both Houses over again, although the first one has accepted the original scheme. My right hon. Friend shakes his head. I do not profess to be as great a connoisseur in the English language as he is, but the Amendment says: If the scheme submitted to the said Houses in pursuance of the foregoing provision is not confirmed in manner hereinafter provided —that means confirmed by both Houses— the Council may at any time thereafter, if it appears to them that they can usefully so do, frame a further scheme for the purpose aforesaid and submit the same to the said Houses, and so from time to time as occasion arises. House No. I having approved absolutely of his original scheme, he then tries to formulate a scheme to please House No. 2, and he has to go on submitting that scheme to both Houses. Surely that is not intended by the Bill? It emphasises the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. E. McNeill) that the words of this Amendment want more consideration.

Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

I have already said that we will deal with that point. With regard to the question which my hon. and gallant Friend (Brigadier-General Cockerill) has raised, I would point out that the Council have power to regulate their own procedure, including the delegation of powers to Committees. He will find that in the Clause we have just passed, Clause 2. There is no difficulty at all about the Council going into these matters.

Captain CRAIG

Will the right hon. Gentleman, in considering this Clause, also consider the question of whether it would not be desirable to give to the Council the power of considering a scheme for one Parliament alone? The Council might come to the conclusion that a Second Chamber for Northern Ireland, or, on the other hand, a Second Chamber for Southern Ireland, without giving a Second Chamber to the other Parliament, was desirable. Under the Clause that cannot be done. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that?

Sir L. W0RTHINGT0N- EVANS

Yes.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY

Before we pass from this Clause, may I make a protest from this side against this Amendment? There are a number of hon. Members who are against Second Chambers of any sort or description. We consider this Amendment is directly contrary to modern democratic opinion in all democratic countries, including this one, and I think that somebody on these Benches—although most of my hon. Friends will abstain, I am sorry to say (I think quite wrongly), from participation in this Bill—ought to make a protest against the Government going contrary to the opinion of a very large body of people in this country who are in favour of single Chamber government only.

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS

I really think my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) need not worry himself unduly about this Clause. I am rather surprised that he has spoken as hr has, because I know that, unlike the majority of this House, he has attended the Home Rule Bill discussions. Those of us who sit on this side of the House think this Clause can never possibly have any effect. The only conceivable way in which this Clause can have any operation at all is under the now Amendment to-day, giving the President a casting vote. As the President is going to be chosen from outside, and will be the forty-first Member, he may conceivably sometimes be able to give a casting vote between the equally balanced Sinn Fein and Orange parties on the Council. The Clause is entirely inoperative, and it is rather hard, after the discussion which took place the other day, to expect the Government to go on praising their ill-favoured off-spring.

Colonel NEWMAN

May I ask if this Clause is really going to be inoperative—

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. and gallant Member has exhausted his right to speak.

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Subsection (3) leave out the words "be submitted forthwith to the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the House of Commons of Northern Ireland for their consideration, and if the scheme," and insert instead thereof the words "not have effect unless and until it"

Leave out the word "it" ["it shall have effect"] and insert instead thereof the words "and if and when so confirmed."—[Sir L. Worthington-Evans.]