§ (5) After three years from the day of the first meeting of the Parliament of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland, that Parliament may alter the qualification and registration of the electors, the law relating to elections and the questioning of elections, the constituencies, and the distribution of the members among the constituencies, provided that in any new distribution the number of the members shall not be altered, and due regard shall be had to the population of the constituencies other than University constituencies.
§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANSI beg to move, in Sub-section (5), to leave out the word "three" and to insert instead thereof the word "six."
This is a proposal to insert six years instead of three years as the date before which the proportional representation system cannot be altered. I will remind the House of what happened in Committee. The original Bill contains the words "three years." In Committee it was pointed out that the proportional representation system of voting had been inserted in order to give some security to minorities, and it might be that after the first Parliament had assembled that Parliament would change the system of voting and thus destroy the safeguards. It was proposed by the hon. and gallant Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Lieut. -Colonel Guinness) that ten years should 1241 be inserted instead of three. That proposal was not accepted by the Government, but my right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill promised to consider the matter. In accordance with that promise I propose now to insert six years instead of three. I wish to be quite frank. The object of this is to prevent proportional representation being altered Until at least after two elections.
§ Sir E. CARSONCan the right hon. Gentleman tell us where that comes in, because the Clause covers a great many other matters?
§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANSIt covers all questions relating to various electoral affairs, but the plain object of extending the time is in order that the system of proportional representation should not be destroyed until after two elections. This is a matter which I do not feel at all strongly about. I do not want on the one hand to limit the powers of the Parliaments on electoral matters. I feel that once you set up subordinate Parliaments in either Southern or Northern Ireland they ought to be allowed to make the ordinary rules and regulations, for practically that is what they are, relating to elections. I do not want unnecessarily to restrain them. On the other hand, there are some who think that proportional representation will really give security to a minority, and I do not want to take away from any minority any security that proportional representation would give to it. Therefore, I put the Amendment on the Paper to extend the terms of three years, which would enable the Parliament to alter this system immediately to six years, which would practically mean that two elections would have to take place under proportional representation. I frankly say I shall take the view of the House upon the question, and if the House, think three years ought to remain, or if they prefer six, I shall be guided by their wish.
Captain CRAIGThe right hon. Gentleman has been extremely frank and fair in his explanation. Ulster feels very strongly on this point. Rightly or wrongly, we were under the impression that three years was the period during which we were to be precluded from altering the law with reference to proportional representation. We were 1242 naturally very much startled when we got our papers to find the proposal to substitute six for three. I feel that we have so many friends in the House on this matter of detestation of this system of proportional representation that if it is left to a free vote we shall retain three and not six. This proportional representation system was forced upon Ireland against the wishes of every representative of Ireland, I think, with the exception of two, and originally it ought never to have been passed. First of all, it was against the wishes of all the Irish representatives here, and, in the second place, we Irish strongly object to have all these wretched experiments fn legislation perpetrated on us If you think so highly of proportional representation you should begin by imposing it on yourselves. We do not want to be treated as a sort of corpse on which to operate in all these directions. We object to this thing very strongly. We submit also that our activities are unduly interfered with if you extend the time to six years. Therefore, I trust we may have the support of the House in opposing this Amendment.
§ Sir E. CARSONI take a rather broader view than that of my hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Craig). It is quite true that my colleagues and myself were offended at this system against the wish of all Irish Members of both parties, being imposed on Ireland at all, while at the same time you repudiate it for England and Scotland. But there is a good deal more in the Sub-section than the question of proportional representation. For six years these Parliaments are not to be allowed to do certain things in connection with elections, and I submit to the House, if they are to have any powers at all, they ought to have those particular powers. For instance, for six years instead of three they are not to be able to alter the qualification and registration of electors. Thus the North of Ireland, which is a very democratic and progressive place, is not to be allowed to alter the qualification. Why should it not have the power? Then there is the law relating to elections, and everybody knows that requires in Ireland a great deal of alteration. You have also the question of the constituencies and the distribution of Members amongst the constituencies. If the Parliament finds that particular places, having regard to the 1243 growth and extension of industrial communities, are not properly represented, why should they not be allowed to alter those constituencies. A term of three years gives them time to look about and see how the Bill is really being worked, and I certainly fail to find any argument for a term of six years. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman not to persist in the Amendment which evidently he does not think is very important.
Lieut. - Commander WILLIAMSI appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to keep the word "three" instead of six. I have no particular feeling on the subject of proportional representation. It. is a mild form of amusement which people with nothing better to do indulge in from time to time if they are not particularly strong in their minds. Beyond that I think it is a very harmless form of pleasure, and it does not affect me one way or the other. I support this Bill because I believe it is a genuine attempt to entrust the two Irish peoples with their separate destinies. If that is to be done, the sooner they take the responsibility of organising their elections and matters dealing with elections the better it will be. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw the Amendment.
Sir J. D. REESI should also like to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to leave it at three instead of six, for the reason that the insertion of six will condemn these Irish Parliaments to the system of proportional representation for six years. They are sincerely to be commiserated with on having to put up with it for even three years. Unless there is anything in the principle of the Bill which calls for doubling this penal period, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will drop the Amendment. We have had this question often discussed here, and many of us worked extremely hard to defeat the endeavour, which, like all endeavours of cranks, or those who are determined to reform everything out of its original shape, and to turn everything inside out and upside down, was pressed upon the House again and again with the most persistent malevolence, to pass this system. This House thoroughly detested anything so contrary to the spirit our elections and Constitution, and why is Ireland forced to have it? I do think this system ought not to be pressed upon the Irish 1244 Parliaments for a longer period than three years.
§ Mr. SEDDONI support the appeal made to the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw this Amendment. I cannot for the life of me understand when a Bill has gone through Committee with either a figure or an agreement why he should come down and want to substitute another figure. Nobody wants it and why put it to the trouble of a Division.
§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANSThe hon. Member (Mr. Seddon) hardly did me justice. I explained to the House the origin of this Amendment. In Committee a discussion took place and an undertaking was given and I put this down in pursuance of that undertaking. I made it perfectly plain that I would take the view of the House upon it. I do not propose to withdraw it, and I propose to ask the House to vote upon it.
Amendment negatived.