CLAUSE 61.—(Special provisions as to Dublin University, Trinity College, Dublin, and the Queen's University of Belfast.) (Hansard, 8 November 1920)

§ The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Herbert Fisher)
I beg to move at the end of sub-section (1) to insert a new sub-section— (2) There shall be paid annually, out of moneys provided by the Parliament of Southern Ireland, to Trinity College, Dublin, a sum of thirty thousand pounds, to the University College, Dublin, a sum of forty-two thousand pounds, to the University College, Cork, a sum of twenty-six thousand pounds, and to the University College, Galway, a sum of seventeen thousand pounds, for the general purposes of those colleges, respectively, and the sum so payable to any of those colleges, if and so far as not so paid, shall be deducted on the order of the Joint Exchequer Board from the Irish residuary share of reserved taxes and paid to the college. The Committee will recollect that it is already provided that there shall be paid annually out of moneys provided by the Parliament of the North of Ireland to the Queen's University of Belfast £26,000 for the general purposes of the university, and that sum, if and so far as it is not so paid, is to be deducted on the order of the Joint Exchequer Board from the Irish residuary share of reserved taxes. The purpose of this Amendment is to make similar provision for the institutions of higher learning in Southern Ireland. We are not proposing to burden the British Exchequer. We are proposing to create a lien upon the Revenue of the Parliament of Southern Ireland in favour of the institutions of higher learning, both Catholic and Protestant, in that area. I shall, I think, have very little difficulty in carrying the Committee with me when they know that it would be in the nature of an anomaly, if not in the nature of an injustice, if this proposal were not carried, and if we were not providing for the institutions in Southern Ireland in the same way as for the University institution in Northern Ireland.
If it be right that a Protestant University placed under the control of a Protestant Parliament should be guaranteed a revenue adequate to its present needs, then it must be equally right to 902 extend that same protection to a Catholic University placed under a Catholic Parliament, and it is even more necessary to extend that protection to a Protestant University placed under a Catholic Parliament. I am not now concerned to argue whether it is necessary that the Imperial Parliament, in relinquishing its control over the domestic affairs of Ireland, should set aside these Irish revenues to provide for the cost of Irish education, because that question was decided when the Committee resolved to allocate a portion of the Irish residuary share of reserved taxation to the Queen's College, Belfast. We then came to the conclusion, on representations made by the Members for Ulster, that unless such a provision were inserted in this Bill the interests of higher education in the North-East of Ireland would be imperilled. We then fixed a sum not calculated to provide for future developments, but at any rate sufficient to enable the work of the college to be carried on upon its existing scale under the altered conditions produced by the War. In assigning this sum we were assisted by the recommendations of the University Grants Committee of the Treasury.
We now propose similar financial support for the University Institutions under the Southern Parliament. We are not now suggesting a capital grant, although that may be necessary. We are not proposing to finance extensions, and the figures recommended for the three colleges of the Southern University, are those already accepted by the Treasury on the recommendation of the University Grants Committee, as essential to the efficient discharge of existing functions. No doubt Southern Ireland will find it necessary to vote additional sums in aid of those colleges and the National University of Ireland. I think it is highly probable that those colleges, following the example of many university institutions in this country, will appeal to private munificence to assist them in the difficult task they are trying to perform. We are not attempting to provide for developments, but we are proposing to offer to the teaching staff of these colleges the security that they will not suffer by reason of the political change caused by the passing of this Bill.

§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS
Are these grants being paid now?

§ Mr. FISHER
Yes, they are. I come now to Trinity College, a distinguished institution which dates back to the reign of Queen Elizabeth, and which has done so much for the development of education in Ireland. It has lived upon its own endowments, and framing its own curriculum and granting its own degrees upon terms prescribed by itself, it has enjoyed the untrammelled freedom of Oxford and Cambridge. Like Oxford and Cambridge, Trinity College, Dublin, has experienced the rude shock of war, and it has, like Oxford and Cambridge, concluded that its ancient revenues are no longer adequate to enable it to perform the great task which is incumbent upon it. As the Committee is well aware, Oxford and Cambridge have already applied for State grants, and have already received provisional grants from the Treasury pending the Report of the Royal Commission, of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) is the chairman.
Trinity College has also received a grant from the State, through the University Grants Committee, but it is a non-recurrent grant of £12,000 designed to make good the ravage and loss of the War, and it has not yet received any recurrent grant from the State. The Royal Commission, under the distinguished chairmanship of Sir Archibald Geikie, has prepared a report upon the needs and the reforms necessary at Trinity College, but has not yet presented it, and consequently we cannot announce its recommendations. I have, however, through the courtesy of the chairman of that Commission, been furnished with an advance copy of their Report, and I have come to the conclusion, upon all the evidence submitted to me, that the sum mentioned in the Amendment, which corresponds with the estimate framed by the college itself of its own immediate needs, would be a fair equivalent to the sums already recognised by the Treasury as appropriate for the colleges of the National University.
Consequently, I have no hesitation in asking the Committee to accept this sum as a reasonable contribution. Of course, it does not go the, whole way; it is not intended to finance developments, and it must be accepted rather as a minimum contribution. The Committee may feel 904 that this perpetual charge on the Irish residuary share of reserved taxes is saddling the Legislature with a heavy burden. I quite admit the force of that argument, but, in reply, I would urge two considerations. First of all, the sums mentioned in this Amendment are not maximum but minimum amounts; and secondly, it will be open to Parliament to review this provision, in pursuance of recommendations coming from the Irish Governments or conveyed to it through the Irish representatives at Westminster. If a plain and obvious case were to be made out for reduction at some future time, I cannot believe Parliament would refrain from agreeing to the necessary action. On these grounds I have no hesitation in recommending this Amendment to the Committee.

§ Sir W. WHITLA
I object to the small sum which is proposed to be given to the Belfast University. I noticed, however, that the Minister for Education spoke of it as Queen's College, Belfast. May I remind him that it has ceased to be a college and it is now a university. When I moved an Amendment to this Clause in Committee, I pointed out that it was impossible to go on with this small sum. I think if these sums are being given to provincial colleges, it is necessary that we should have in Belfast nearly double this amount. I think the amount proposed is grossly unjust in connection with the university which I represent. On this point I make another appeal to the Minister for Education that at a time when you are so generous with your money you cannot leave the University of Belfast to starve. If it were a college it would be different, but I want again to remind the right hon. Gentleman that it is a university performing all the functions of a university, and it incurs all the extra expenses necessary to carry on a university. I hope it is not too late for the right hon. Gentleman to do something more in this direction.

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS
The hon. Baronet, in making an appeal to the Government on behalf of Queen's University, Belfast, has not quite appreciated the fact that the same provision in the Bill has been made for all Universities, and that in view of the well-known attitude towards education of Leaders in Northern Ireland there is every proba- 905 bility that a more generous provision will be made there. I think it is most necessary, having regard to the grant to Queen's University, Belfast, that a corresponding obligation should be laid upon the Southern Parliament to support the Universities in its area. The hon. Baronet must have rather overlooked the financial position in reading this new Clause, because he said to the Government, "If you are so generous with your money, you will do something more for the North." As a matter of fact, it is not British money at all. It is Irish money. It is not to come out of the Imperial contribution; that is to be a first charge on the Irish revenue This is a purely domestic matter, and, although I am sure the Committee will agree with the hon. Baronet that University College, Belfast, deserves more money, I do not think really it is a matter we need consider at this particular moment, because this proposal does not refer to Belfast one way or the other. It is simply a corresponding provision which is put in for the South of Ireland. Personally I cordially welcome the proposal of the Government.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I want to ask two questions. The first is, is it quite certain that these charges will fall on the Irish Parliament and the Irish taxpayer, and not on the English taxpayer?

§ Mr. FISHER
Yes.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I am glad to hear that. It is one good thing, at any rate. My other point may, I hope, be a good omen. My right hon. Friend appears to-day rather in the garb of an economist. He says, "I do not want to provide money for future extensions, but I want to keep things going as they are." Has my right hon. Friend at last awakened to the fact that we are now a poor country and must economise in education just as much as in anything else? May we take this as an augury of what will be his position when he comes to deal with English education?