§ 21. Mr. DEVLINasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether three men—namely, John Gaynor, Springfield Road, Belfast; John M'Fadden, Springfield Road, Belfast; and Edward Trodden, Falls Road, Belfast—were murdered by uniformed men; whether any inquest was held in these cases; and whether any of the assassins were brought to justice, or what the Government propose to do in the matter?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODA military court of inquiry was held in each of these cases. In the case of John Gaynor the court found that he was killed while resisting arrest by members of the police force, who fired justifiably in the execution of their duty. The finding in the cases of John M'Fadden and Edward Trodden was that death resulted from bullet wounds inflicted by persons unknown.
§ Mr. DEVLINIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that, at one o'clock on the morning when these occurrences took place, a motor lorry full of uniformed men went from one of these houses to the other and murdered these men in the presence of their wives and children?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODNo, I am not aware of that, and it is a very serious allegation to make against the police.
§ Mr. DEVLINI make the allegation, and I will do more: I will make it outside. I want to know now whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to give a full and complete inquiry into the assassination of those men in the presence of their wives and families at one o'clock in the morning? I never heard a more infamous answer in my life.
§ Sir H. GREENWOODIf the hon. Member has any evidence to bring before a court in Ireland, showing that the police in this case, as alleged by him, were guilty of assassination, I shall be very pleased to set up a court so that he may give that evidence.
§ Mr. DEVLINDo I understand now from the right hon. Gentleman that he is prepared to set up an independent court to inquire into this?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI have given my answer.
§ Mr. DEVLINLet us be clear about it. Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to set up an impartial, independent tribunal for the purpose of investigating all the circumstances in which three innocent men were murdered in the dead of night in the presence of their families by uniformed men?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI have given my answer.
§ Mr. DONALDIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that, if any more policemen or soldiers are murdered in Belfast, there will be more than three Sinn Feiners shot?
§ Mr. DEVLINYou would not have the courage to shoot anybody!
§ 22. Mr. DEVLINasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that on the night of 8th September, 1919, some hundreds of soldiers left the barracks at Fermoy and proceeded to 544 wreck the town, under the leadership of some of their officers in mufti, by way of reprisal for the shooting of a soldier in an attack on a military party some days before; whether over 50 shops were wrecked and looted and a great deal of the property thrown into the river; whether no attempt was made by those in authority to stop them, though several of their officers resided in the Royal Hotel near where the wrecking occurred; whether the men who attacked and shot the soldier did not come from Fermoy, but were all from outside districts 20 or 30 miles away, as they have all been arrested or are certainly known to the authorities; whether the shops wrecked belonged principally to people who belonged to no political party, for example, the local branch of the Munster and Leinster Bank and Messrs. Tyler's boot shop, Messrs. Tyler being an English firm, suffered damage sworn to be over £1,000; whether the persons injured claimed compensation, and decrees running into thousands of pounds were ordered to be paid by the ratepayers, including persons whose property was destroyed; whether these decrees were made by the Recorder of Cork and several of them were on appeal confirmed by a High Court Judge sitting as Judge of Assize; whether the Government were represented on the hearing of all these cases by a legal representative; whether, in view of the fact that absolutely innocent persons were injured and absolutely innocent persons have to pay for damage, the Government have done anything or intend to do anything to compensate these people; whether they have not been paid the amount of compensation granted by the Recorder; and why was no punishment meted out to the troops for this outrage although many were ready to come forward and identify the officers and men who were implicated?
§ Sir ARCHIBALD WILLIAMSON (Parliamentary Secretary, War Office)My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. I regret that the information at my disposal does not enable me to answer the detailed points raised in this question, but a report has been called for from the military authorities.
§ Mr. DEVLINWill the report be ready for the discussion on the Criminal Injuries (Ireland) Bill, which comes before the House to-morrow?
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONI cannot answer definitely, but I should think not.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHCan the right hon Gentleman say why it is that, although these incidents took place a month ago, he has not yet received any report?
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONThere are a great many details in the question on which it was thought necessary to get information from Ireland.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether any report has been called for between the 8th September and to-day—until this question was on the Paper?
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONI cannot say without notice, but I shall be glad to answer if a question is put down.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHI can answer it myself: there has not.
§ Mr. DEVLINWill this organised destruction of property and looting, carried on by forces of the Crown, only be inquired into by the military authorities when questions are asked in the House of Commons?
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONInquiries are held locally, but it does not follow that we have the information in London.
Mr. MALONEWould it not be better—[Interruption]—if the Secretary of State for War paid some attention to these regrettable outrages, in preference to reviewing books for the "Daily Mail"?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat does not arise on the question.
§ 23. Mr. DEVLINasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the shooting on Monday night of Mr. Leo White, an ex-lieutenant of the Dublin Fusiliers, by forces of the Crown during the course of a raid on his premises at Clara, King's County; and whether any of his assailants have been arrested?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODMy attention has been called to the allegation referred to by the hon. Member, and I have directed that the matter shall be carefully investigated. Pending the result of the inquiries, which are still proceeding, I am not in a position to make any further statement.
§ Mr. DEVLINWhen will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make a statement explaining the murder, by uniformed officers of the Crown, of an ex-officer in the British Army?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThat is the very point that is under inquiry.
§ Mr. DEVLINWhen will the inquiry be completed, and who is making the inquiry?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThe inquiry is being made by officers of the Army.
§ Mr. DEVLINAs this concerns the honour of the British Army—this butchering of a ex-lieutenant of the Dublin Fusiliers who fought for four years in Germany for the rights of small nationalities—I want to know when an impartial inquiry will be made, and not an inquiry by military officers?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODAs the hon. Member says, it does involve the honour of the British Army, and I am here to-trust the honour of the British Army in the hands of British officers.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether newspaper representatives will be allowed to be present at this inquiry, so that the evidence will be published?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThe rule is that all these inquiries are open to everybody.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHDoes the right hon. Gentleman pledge his word to the House that all these inquiries, are public.
§ Sir H. GREENWOODAs I have said, that is the rule; but a Court of Inquiry, like every, other Court, has the right, for good reason, to exclude the public from the hearing.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHCan the right hon. Gentleman say in what proportion of trials the representatives of the Press have been admitted?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODIf the hon. Member will put that question down, I will try to get an answer to it.
§ Mr. DEVLINHas the Press been admitted to any of these inquiries?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODYes.
§ Mr. DEVLINThey have not.
§ Mr. HOGGE(by Private Notice) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has made inquiries into the allegation by Mr. Hugh Martin that his life was threatened by Black and Tans in Tralee; if so, what is the result of his inquiries?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI have made inquiries into this matter, and find that the County Inspector was not present at the time and has no knowledge of any threat towards Mr. Martin. He states that the police furnished two correspondents with information sought by them concerning the recent police murders in this district. Mr. Martin called at the police barracks, Tralee, yesterday and asked for protection. He was informed that, in the opinion of the police, he is not in danger, but, in view of his request, he would be given all possible protection.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYMay I ask if the right hon. Gentleman suggests that both Mr. Hugh Martin and the correspondent of the "Evening News," Mr. Macgregor, are deliberately misleading the people of this country and this House in their statements?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThat is not my suggestion. I have made inquiries of the County Inspector, who I say was not present himself, and his wire in reply was that he had no knowledge of any threat of this kind.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYMay I ask whether the District Inspector has made no effort to find out which of the police threatened Mr. Martin or were present or whether he has done anything to sift this account of a disgraceful episode?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODHe has made every effort he could in the short interval between the time he was wired to by me to find an answer to the question to-day. He would have to parade the police and make individual inquiries. In the meantime let me remind the hon. Member that the police and soldiers are doing their best to search for criminals who during the past few days have murdered several policemen.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHDoes the Chief Secretary state that he has received a message from the inspector that he intends to parade the men and endeavour to secure their identification?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThat would be in the ordinary course of his duties, and I have every confidence in the county inspectors
§ Mr. MacVEAGHThen your statement was purely imaginary?
§ Mr. DEVLINWhat criminals!
§ Mr. F. O. ROBERTS(by Private Notice) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to a report that armed forces of the Crown have made another attack on the Athlone Printing Works resulting in enormous destruction and complete stoppage of the works and enforced idleness of the employés, and will he make inquiries into this matter and say whether special steps are being taken to enable these workpeople to resume their employment?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI have called for a report on this matter and have just been informed that the Athlone Printing Works were burned down at 3.30 a.m. yesterday. The police authorities state that all the local police, consisting of some 20 men, were in their barracks at the time, and that there were no other police in Athlone. Athlone is at present, under a curfew order which operates from 10.30 p.m. to 5 a.m., and I am informed that the curfew patrol did not see the outrage committed. Further inquiries are being made. I am glad to say no person was injured.
§ Mr. ROBERTSSeeing that an attempt was made on Sunday, 17th October, to destroy the same works when the military were said to be in control of the place, were any steps taken to prevent their destruction?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODEvery step is being taken to prevent destruction.
§ Mr. ADAMSONCan the right hon. Gentleman state whether these work people and their dependents are to be provided with maintenance pending the restoration of their means of livelihood in the same way as people are compensated whose property is destroyed?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI must have notice of that question, because a great number of legal points are involved, and I could not venture to answer it off-hand.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHWho is suggested by the Government as having committed this crime?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODNo one has been suggested by the Government as being responsible for committing this crime.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHPerhaps it never happened
§ Sir H. GREENWOODUp to the present the Government has no knowledge of who committed the crime.
§ Mr. DEVLINThe right hon. Gentleman states that Athlone is under Curfew-law, and therefore there were no civilians on the streets of Athlone when this thing took place. The military were in complete charge, and why were these premises allowed to be burned down without action being taken?
§ Mr. ROBERTSAre we to understand that the evidence which come to hand from unofficial sources that armed forces of the Crown were not present is incorrect?
§ Sir H. GREENWOOD"Not present?"
§ Mr. ROBERTSI mean "were present"
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI have given the best answer I can in response to the hon. Member. This answer comes in response to a telegram sent by me late last night after getting notice of the question. Inquiry is proceeding. I am only too happy to give, the House all the information in my possession.
§ Mr. ROBERTSHave any representations been made to the right hon. Gentleman from some of the officers in charge of these printing works?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI have not received any.
§ Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEMay I ask, Sir, if it is customary for supplementary questions to be read?
§ Mr. MacVEAGHSit down.
§ Mr. ROBERTSI may say they were not read.
§ Mr. CLYNESMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the answer which he has given confirms him in the opinion that Ireland is the freest country in the world?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThat is not what I said yesterday in response to a 550 question in reference to certain journalists. My answer was, and on reflection I confirm it, that Ireland is the freest country in the world for journalists.
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR(by Private Notice) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the case of John Houlihan who was dragged from his bed, bayonetted, and then shot by uniformed men in Ballyduff, Co. Kerry; whether John Conway, father of six children, was shot through the brain in Tralee, Co. Kerry, when returning from devotions; and whether another man named Wall was shot dead during indiscriminate firing by the police, and an ex-soldier named Simon Connor, shot through the stomach and seriously wounded?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI have received a report to the effect that John Houlihan was shot by masked men at Ballyduff at about 6 a.m. on Monday the 1st, and that Thomas Wall was fatally wounded in Tralee from gunshot wounds. Courts of inquiry will be held in these cases. In the case of John Conway a court of inquiry has been held and found that he died from natural causes. I have not yet received a copy of the proceedings of this court, but I am informed by the police authorities that the deceased was found dead near his home on the 1st instant, and the body bore no traces of gunshot or other wounds. I have received no report as yet in the case of Simon O'Connor, but I have seen a statement in the Press to the effect that he was seriously wounded.