§ 37. Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister whether he has yet received the Report of the Court of Inquiry into the deaths of Frank d'Dwyer and Edward O'Dwyer, sons of William O'Dwyer, farmer, of Ballydavid, near Bansha, who were dragged from their father's house by uniformed men on the night of the 18th October and shot dead; whether he is aware that shots were fired into the bedroom where the aged father and mother were lying; whether he has received information as to the identity of the uniformed men who arrived in motor lorries at the house of Patrick Doyle, of Ballygar, near French Park, county Roscommon, dragged him out, and shot him dead on the same night; and what steps does he propose to take to prevent a repetition of these deeds?
§ The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Lieut.-Colonel Sir Hamar Greenwood)I have not yet seen the Report of 25 the proceedings of the Court of Inquiry into the circumstances attending the deaths of the brothers O'Dwyer, and I understand that the Court has not yet given its finding. As regards the case of Patrick Doyle I have nothing to add to my reply to a similar question put to me by the hon. and gallant Member on the 27th ultimo.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYWill the right hon. Gentleman direct the Court of Inquiry into the O'Dwyer case to call before that Court the special correspondents of English newspapers who have sent special accounts about this, and take their evidence, seeing that otherwise only people who are under police intimidation come before that Court?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODIf the hon. Member can give me the names of any actual eye-witnesses of these events I shall be very pleased to see that they are called.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYWill the right hon. Gentleman see that Mr. Hugh Martin, the experienced correspondent of the "Daily News," who states that he has seen the bodies and the damage done, and any other persons—Englishmen or otherwise—not under police intimidation by his Department are called?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI repeat, if my hon. and gallant Friend can give me the names of any man or woman, actual eyewitnesses of this crime, I will see that they are cited before the proper tribunal.
§ Mr. DEVLIN(by Private Notice) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can make a statement with regard to the horrible events that took place at Templemore, County Tipperary, on Friday night; whether it is a fact that the town was shattered from end to end by a series of explosions, shops burned, a hundred buildings destroyed, and a third of the population compelled to fly from the town; and can he say what action he proposes to take to deal with this latest outrage?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODIt is not a fact that the town was "shattered from end to end by a series of explosions," that "hundreds of buildings were destroyed," or that "one-third of the population was compelled to fly from the town." The plain facts are that the local police, 26 assisted by the townspeople, succeeded in confining the flames to two houses, and the local police were thanked by the Temple-more District Council, which is a Sinn Fein body, for their efforts. I am making the fullest inquiry into the whole question, but I wish to say that the hon. Member must have received his statements in this question from a source on which I would advise advise him never in future to depend.
§ Mr. DEVLINI am profoundly grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his advice, but I shall just take my information from whatever source I like. May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that these statements have been made in English newspapers?
§ Mr. DEVLINWill the right hon. Gentleman have full information at the time of the adjournment of the House as to what precisely has taken place in Templemore in order that the House may have the real facts before it when I raise this matter on the adjournment to-night, because I do not believe the information which the right hon. Gentleman has read.
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI have given the hon. Member all the information that T have to hand at the moment.
§ Mr. DEVLINWell, you will have some more to-night at 11 o'clock.
§ Sir H. GREENWOODAs soon as I received this question, I wired to send the fullest possible information, so that I could give it to the House at the earliest possible moment.
§ Mr. DEVLINTo whom did the right hon. Gentleman wire? From whom did the right hon. Gentleman get his information. Did he get it from the Imperial League?
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR(by Private Notice) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has any information in reference to the burning of Irish creameries in Co. Kerry, narrated in the "Manchester Guardian" of 30th October; the alleged attacks on' John and Tom McElligott and on their sisters; the alleged attack on John Lovat, and the 27 cutting of the hair of Mary Lovat; the alleged cutting of the hair of Miss Brady; whether in all these cases the correspondent of the "Manchester Guardian" pledges his own personal word to having examined into the facts; whether in the case of Mr. Burke, killed by the military in the town of Athlone, the evidence of the inquest did not show that the only shooting was that by the military themselves, and whether Mr. Burke was not known to be a perfectly peaceful and law-abiding citizen who had never belonged to any political organisation except that of the Constitutional party?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODWith regard to the statements made in the "Manchester Guardian" of 30th October, I received on Thursday last a Co-operative Deputation which made representations to me regarding the destruction of Creameries at Abbeydorney and Lixnaw, and I am having enquiries made into the destruction of these creameries and the allegations that the destruction was carried out by servants of the Crown. I have read the accounts given in the "Manchester Guardian" of attacks on the McElligots and their sisters, and on John Lovat and Mary Lovat and Miss Brady. I have not received any reports on these occurrences, but I may point out to the hon. Member that the attacks in question, as reported in the "Manchester Guardian," were carried out by men with blackened faces, and, it would appear, in civilian clothes. According to the newspaper report, these men were beaten and kicked on the suspicion that they were implicated in cutting off the hair of a girl who was friendly with the police. In the case of Mr. Burke, referred to in the last part of the question, I have already stated in reply to a question by the hon. Member on the 26th instant that Mr. Burke was an absolutely innocent man. He was unfortunately shot while the police were entering Athlone after one attack, and when they were in fear of another.
§ Lord R. CECILWhen my right hon. Friend speaks of inquiries, are these inquiries made in private or in public?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODSome inquiries are made in private and some in public. My own experience in Ireland is that the most effective inquiry is made in private.
§ Mr. DEVLINFrom whom does the right hon. Gentleman make these inquiries?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODFrom those officers and persons who are responsible to me for their conduct.
§ Mr. DEVLINDo I understand the right hon. Gentleman to state that the only inquiries which he makes are inquiries from the superior officers of the men who are charged with these crimes? Do I understand that to be the answer?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThe superior officers of the men who are charged with reprisals are the officers most interested in the discipline of the respective units to which these men belong, and there have been many cases in which soldiers and policemen have been court-martialled and some policemen have been dismissed for conduct that is not in keeping with the discipline of those two great forces of the Crown.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYWere they dismissed for murder? Is dismissal the punishment for murder?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThere is no charge, with one exception—that of a policeman now under arrest—of which I know urged against a policeman or soldier for murder.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYYou make it yourself in the case of Balbriggan.
§ Mr. CLYNESCan the right hon. Gentleman give the House any information on the representations made to him by the Co-operative organisations?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI received a deputation on the question—a very interesting deputation—but I do not know what information I can give to the right hon. Gentleman. I have no doubt that a report of the deputation's visit and my remarks will appear in the Co-operative Press.
§ Mr. DEVLINWhat is the precise procedure of these courts of inquiry? What evidence is called before those courts?
§ Lord R. CECILWhat guarantee is there?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODIt would require a very long answer fully to explain the procedure. The natural procedure in the 29 case of a police inquiry is that the facts alleged by the hon. Member or any hon. Member or anybody else are sent through the proper channels to the local officer, and he examines anyone whom he sees fit to examine. That is the ordinary case. There are cases where we send down one of our senior officers to hold an independent inquiry with liberty to call what evidence he likes before him.
§ Mr. DEVLINMight I ask the Prime Minister—
§ Mr. SPEAKERI think any further questions ought to be put down.
§ Mr. DEVLINOn a point of Order. As this is really a very vital and serious matter to Ireland, I would like to put one short question to the Prime Minister. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of what he must regard as this most unsatisfactory method of procedure in matters touching the life and death not only of soldiers and policemen but civilians, he is prepared to appoint an English impartial judicial tribunal for the purpose of inquiring into the whole matter.
§ The PRIME MINISTERWe discussed this question of an inquiry at considerable length in this House some nights ago. My hon. Friend was not present, but the reasons, in the present condition of Ireland, against inquiries of the kind that he indicates, are quite obvious. In the first place, there is no such thing as independent evidence. You cannot get civilians who have actually seen murders perpetrated to come forward and give evidence. There have been several cases of murders in the presence of a whole street full of people who could have given evidence. They never come forward to give evidence. They dare not. It is really idle under those circumstances to talk about judicial inquiries. You must make such inquiries as you can by such means as are at the disposal of the Government. The Government are not responsible, for that condition of things. Until the whole sense of the community is in favour of punishing any crime or any murder, it is impossible to conduct inquiries under such circumstances as are indicated by my hon. Friend. The real remedy is a restoration of a sense of indignation against the perpetration of murder and crime.