§
Resolution reported,
That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of any expenses incurred with the approval of the Treasury for the purposes of the Census for Ireland under any Act of the present Session for taking the Census for Ireland in the year nineteen hundred and twenty-one.
§ Resolution read a Second time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI would really ask the House to pay some attention to this item which is going to be rushed through. We are asked to vote £90,000 to take a census in Ireland. If things go on as they are in Ireland the census will be a farce, because the great aim of about three-fourths of the people of Ireland to-day is to defy this Government in every possible way they can, and the greatest delight of every Irishman to-day is to say he has done something the Government does not want him to do or has not done something the Government want him to do. This census, if it is taken next year in Ireland, will give a Heaven-sent chance to all these people at no large risk to themselves, because you cannot prosecute 500,000 or 600,000 people who refuse to fill up the forms, and the thing will be a farce. In fact the White Paper that hon. Members have says the reason why the cost of taking the census has gone up from £19,000 to £90,000 is that in past years the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police were appointed as enumerators, and they did not get any special remuneration. It was part of their duty to enumerate the people. Now apparently it is anticipated that special enumerators will have to be appointed and will have to be paid for their services. If you cannot even use the police to go round and collect the forms in the morning which have been filled up on the night appointed by Parliament, what is the good of proceeding with the thing at all? 124 The whole thing will be a farce if things in Ireland next year are as they are now. If, on the other hand, the Irish, as we all say we hope, have got some broad measure of self-government, it is their business to take the census of their people, and this is just the sort of domestic legislation that ought to be left to the Irish Parliament or Constituent Assembly, or whatever you have. They ought not to come to us for £90,000 for any such service. I do not think there is an hon. Member who, if he is honest with himself, will not agree with me. I challenge any hon. Member to say, with his hand on his heart, that he thinks a census taken in Ireland to-day will be anything else than a screaming farce, and what on earth is the good of wasting money and time and piling insult on to injury by passing this sort of legislation? I shall certainly vote against this sum of money, and I hope hon. Members with some sense of responsibility and sense of humour will support me.
§ Mr. KILEYSeveral appeals have been made to the Government to reconsider the position and to consider the advisability or otherwise of wasting any further time on this proposal. We realise full well that whilst the people of Ireland are in their present temper they will not fill up these forms, and if such be the I am sure we all agree it will be, it seems to be futile to proceed with the expenditure of £90,000 or more for a purpose of this kind, in defiance of what we know will be the wishes and desire of the Irish people, and, what is more, a sheer waste of money. There will be plenty of time, if the Government feels so disposed, in the Autumn Session to proceed with this if they think it advisable, but there can be no object gained in our passing this Bill, because we know no census will be taken, and an amount of printing and money will be wasted without any result. I therefore suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should reconsider his position and carry the thing over until the autumn.
§ Mr. E. WOODI should like to associate myself with what has fallen from hon. Members opposite, but from a rather different point of view. Whatever may be our views as to the precise usefulness of the proposal, it is surely evident that it is bound to be futile in the present state of Ireland. I cannot see that any great damage will be done by delaying this matter for a year. For a work like 125 a census some sort of quiet condition in a country is a sine quâ non. I do hope very earnestly, therefore, that unless the right hon. Gentleman is able to give very strong reasons to the contrary, which I cannot conceive he is, he will agree to this proposal for saving money.
§ Sir F. BANBURYUnless I am mistaken, it is not proposed to take the census until 1921. Seeing that in the un fortunate state of Ireland at the present time it will be quite impossible to take the census, and in view of the enormous expenditure of the country, and in view of the fact that we ought to save in every direction, would it not be wise if we postponed this Resolution until at any rate the Autumn Session, when it is to be hoped matters will be better in Ireland. If they are, we could then arrange to take the necessary steps. It seems to me that if this Money Resolution is passed, it will only result in enumerators being appointed, and, after that, £90,000 being spent. We know perfectly well that, as things are now, those enumerators would have no work to do and be of no use at all. As the Bill does not propose to do anything until 1921, does it not seem a reasonable request that matters should be postponed, at any rate until the Autumn Session, or even possibly until 1921?
§ Captain ELLIOTAlthough I do not often find myself in agreement with my hon. Friend, I wish to register my hearty agreement with his opinion on this occasion. I spoke against this Bill on a previous occasion. Vital statistics are urgently necessary. I submit you will not get accurate statistics, and inaccurate statistics are the most misleading of all things. They lead to hastily conceived, and all sorts of false, theories. I cannot imagine anybody considering that under present conditions the Irish census could be carried out in that calm and judicial atmosphere which is so necessary for the collecting of accurate statistics. For that reason I beg the administration to consider the question of withdrawing this Resolution, at least for the present, until the Government has proceeded a little further with its policy, if it has a policy, for the South and West, and also for the North-west of Ireland.
Lieut.-Colonel MURRAYI merely rise to suggest that the Government should postpone this Resolution. It is 126 quite clear that the census could not be brought into operation under the present condition of affairs in Ireland. It is not suggested to hold it until 1921, and therefore there seems no possible reason for bringing forward this request for this very large sum of money at the present moment. I hope the Government will consider the request which has been made to them, and withdraw the Resolution.
Dr. MURRAYI owe an apology to my right hon. Friend. The last time this matter was before the House, I thought I detected an injustice to Scotland in the amount given to Ireland. I understand the sum given for Scotland was based on 1911, and I understand also that, whereas previously the Royal Irish Constabulary did the work for nothing, they are now to be paid for it. But I join in the request made at any rate to postpone this Resolution, because once the Bill is passed, the arrangements for the taking of the census will proceed, and will no doubt make a big hole in the £90,000. I think the authority of this House should not be given to this Bill until it is reasonably certain that the census will be carried through in a scientific manner. If it is carried through under the conditions which obtain in Ireland to-day, the matter will be a huge joke. I have no doubt that jokes will be registered upon the census papers. No importance could be attached to the census under these circumstances. I therefore join in the appeal which has been made to the Government, if not to withdraw the Bill altogether, at any rate to postpone it until the autumn or until next year, until we see a new spirit arising in Ireland, so that the census will be conducted under satisfactory and scientific conditions.
§ Major WARD-JACKSONThe only reason why I join in the request to the Government to postpone this matter is the fact that we are obliged to study economy all round, and if there is any ground at all for thinking that the taking of the census in Ireland under the present conditions will not be productive of any good result, the best thing we can do is not to spend this £90,000.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Denis Henry)During the whole history of census taking, the censuses for the two countries have been taken side by side, and although there 127 have been unsettled periods in Ireland before, there never has been the slightest suggestion that the taking of the census has been ineffective. Let us see the position in the present instance. It is suggested that because there is a certain amount of disorder in districts in Ireland the census will be a failure. It does not seem to me that there is very much force in that argument because the interest of the people in those districts will be to have an accurate record, say, for instance, of the Irish-speaking people, and people of that description, and of their population. There will be no object whatever in keeping back the information that is required through the local authorities. There will be, in fact, competition between the various elements in Ireland to show their respective strength. We have never found any hesitation in their giving such information, and we may be quite sure that it will be to the interest of the people in the North of Ireland to show that they are a bigger population than that of the South of Ireland. I, for one, do not think for a moment that difficulty will arise, and as the Bill suggests the work should be done through the local authority it will be comparatively easy
§ to carry that out. The same argument exactly might be applied to the registration of voters. It is found that such registration goes on absolutely as before, for the simple reason that the element of competition to which I have already alluded enters very strongly into it. Objections are filed in the ordinary way in the Courts by all parties in Ireland. There is absolutely no reason for throwing up the sponge in connection with a matter of this kind.
§ Mr. RAWLINSONIt is not a question of throwing up the sponge, but merely to postpone the spending of this £90,000 until we come back in October. Then, if no further trouble has arisen, I am sure this House will pass the Resolution. It is the fear that the money will be spent before next October which I think is influencing the minds of hon. Members. It is surely desirable that this money should not be spent, certainly for some months, before we see what sort of a turn affairs in Ireland take.
§ Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 130; Noes, 42.
129| Division No. 322.] | AYES. | [7.25 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Farquharson, Major A. C. | Lister, Sir R. Ashton |
| Atkey, A. R. | Flannery, Sir. James Fortescue | Lorden, John William |
| Baird, Sir John Lawrence | Ford, Patrick Johnston | Loseby, Captain C. E. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot | Lynn, R. J. |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) | Fraser, Major Sir Keith | Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) |
| Barnett, Major R. W. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Middlebrook, Sir William |
| Barnston, Major Harry | Gange, E. Stanley | Mitchell, William Lane |
| Barrand, A. R. | Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| Barrie, Charles Coupar | Gilbert, James Daniel | Moreing, Captain Algernon H. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John | Morris, Richard |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Goff, Sir R. Park | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) | Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh) |
| Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) | Greenwood, William (Stockport) | Murray, John (Leeds, West) |
| Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland | Gregory, Holman | Murray, Major William (Dumfries) |
| Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith | Greig, Colonel James William | Neal, Arthur |
| Breese, Major Charles E. | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Britton, G. B. | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Parker, James |
| Broad, Thomas Tucker | Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike |
| Bruton, Sir James | Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) | Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) | Perring, William George |
| Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. | Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) | Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles |
| Carr, W. Theodore | Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon | Pollock, Sir Ernest M. |
| Casey, T. W. | Hood, Joseph | Purchase, H. G. |
| Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. | Raeburn, Sir William H. |
| Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Ramsden, G. T. |
| Cope, Major Wm. | Jameson, J. Gordon | Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Jesson, C. | Richardson, Sir Albion (Camberwell) |
| Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) | Jodrell, Neville Paul | Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Johnstone, Joseph | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) |
| Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) | Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund |
| Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) | Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) | Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George | Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr | Scott, A M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T. | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Seddon, J. A. |
| Duncannon, Viscount | Knights, Capt. H. N. (C'berwell, N.) | Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) |
| Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. | Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) | Strauss, Edward Anthony |
| Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. | Lindsay, William Arthur | Sturrock, J. Leng |
| Sutherland, Sir William | Wallace, J. | Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato |
| Taylor, J. | Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) | Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) |
| Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H. | Younger, Sir George |
| Tickler, Thomas George | Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) | |
| Tryon, Major George Clement | Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Vickers, Douglas | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) | Capt. Guest and Lord E. Talbot. |
| NOES. | ||
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Hogge, James Myles | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. | Holmes, J. Stanley | Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) |
| Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) | Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Spencer, George A. |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. | Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) |
| Borwick, Major G. O. | Kenyon, Barnet | Thomson, T. (Middlesborough, West) |
| Briant, Frank | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender | Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) | Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Molson, Major John E[...]sdale | White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) |
| Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Murchison, C. K. | Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) | Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) |
| Entwistle, Major C. F. | Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) | Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Newbould, Alfred Ernest | Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) |
| Hayward, Major Evan | Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. | |
| Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Perkins, Walter Frank | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hodge, Rt. Hon. John | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Mr. Kiley and Capt. Sir Beville Stanier. |
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[Sir G. Hewart.]