Commons Sitting of 22 July 1919

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with), —Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
West Hartlepool Corporation Bill [Lords].
Londonderry Port and Harbour Bill [Lords].
Pembroke Gas Bill [Lords].
Birmingham Corporation Tramways Bill [Lords].
Leeds Corporation Bill [Lords].
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
Private Bills [Lords] (No Standing Orders applicable), —Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:
Clowes Settled Estates Bill [Lords].
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
City and South London Railway Bill,
As amended, considered.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time. — [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
Sheringham Gas and Water Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Swinton and Mexborough Gas Board Bill,
As amended, considered.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time. — [The Chairman, of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders Bill,
Ordered, That Standing Order 211 be suspended, and that the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to proceed with the Bill on Thursday. — [The Chairman of ways and Means.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  DIPLOMATIC SERVICE.
  Mr. ROBERT YOUNGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any plans are being prepared for the post-graduate training of members of the Diplomatic Service, as suggested in the speech of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on 31st July last?
  Colonel Sir HAMAR GREENWOOD(Department of Oversea Trade): As the lion. Member will observe from the answer which I am about to give to another question put by him to-day, every effort is being made, by freeing the members of the Foreign Service from routine work, to give effect to the suggestions with regard to what the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin described as their post-graduate training in the speech referred to. I may add that instructions were sent some time ago to His Majesty's representatives abroad, to the effect that all junior secretaries should undergo a period of training under the commercial secretaries.

  CHANNEL ISLANDS (PASSPORTS).
  Sir ARTHUR FELLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has arranged with the authorities of the Channel Islands that passports between these two parts of the British Islands shall be abolished; and if this can be carried out without delay to facilitate the summer traffic?
  Sir H. GREENWOOD: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Dartford yesterday. The regulations in this matter do not concern the Foreign Office.
  Sir A. FELL: Is it not the case that for some time past a great mistake has been made in issuing passports to and from Jersey, which is a part of the United Kingdom? Why should the Foreign Office grant passports? It is the only Department which grants passports, and the hon. Gentleman says they are not responsible.
  Sir H. GREENWOOD: The Channel Islands are under the Home Office, and any passport arrangement made for the Channel Islands is made as much at the request of the Channel Islands as within the discretion of the Home Office.
  Sir A. FELL: Do not passports issued by the Foreign Office begin "Arthur James Balfour," and addressed to foreigners. There are no foreigners in the Channel Islands, and, therefore, the Foreign Secretary has nothing to do with them—
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is arguing the matter, and this is not the time for argument.
  Sir A. FELL: I cannot get an answer.

  RUSSIA.

    RECONSTRUCTION POLICY.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to a statement issued by "Reuter" as coming from Lieut.-General Sir C. G. Briggs in which appears a translation of a document stated to have been signed by General Denikin, K.C.B., and eighteen of his following, to the effect that one of their aims is the reconstruction of a powerful, united, and indivisible Russia; and whether, in view of the Allied recognition of the Republic of Finland and the partial recognition and help given to the de facto Governments of the Baltic States of Esthonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, he will state whether the Foreign Office was consulted before this statement was issued by Lieut.-General Sir C. G. Briggs?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The answer to the first part of the question asked by the
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    hon. and gallant Member is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative.
    Lieut. Commander KENWORTHY: May I have an answer to the third part of the question?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: My advisers considered that it was divided into two parts only.

    COST OF ASSISTANCE.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can now give the cost to date of the assistance given to Admiral Koltchak and General Denikin, K.C.B., including freight charges for the conveyance of munitions and stores by sea and rail?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Forster): I have nothing to add to my reply on the 22nd May last to a question put by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme.
    Captain W. BENN: Can the hon. Gentleman say what amount is taken in the Estimates this year for the Russian Expedition?
    Mr. FORSTER: I am afraid I cannot.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State for War gave an assurance on the floor of the House that these Estimates would be got out in the form desired and laid on the Table before the Adjournment?
    Mr. FORSTER: I will confer with my right hon. Friend to see that any pledges that he has given will be fulfilled.

    BOLSHEVIK PRISONERS.
    Mr. RAPERasked the Secretary of State for War whether or not Bolshevik prisoners are allowed to communicate with Bolsheviks who arc still at large?
    Captain GUEST (Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury): I am making inquiry, and will let my hon. Friend know as soon as I am in a position to answer his question.

    BRITISH TROOPS (DEMOBILISATION).
    Major LANE-FOXasked the Secretary of State for War whether Private N. Copley, No. 14632, Machine Gun Corps,

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    enlisted in 1915 and is therefore eligible for demobilisation now; whether he is in this country and has received orders to rejoin his unit in Russia to be demobilised; and whether it is possible to get his demobilisation effected in this country and so save to the building trade a man who is at present badly wanted?
    Captain GUEST: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer which I gave to a similar question by my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering on the 10th instant. Soldiers eligible for demobilisation and who do not volunteer to return to North Russia whilst on leave from that theatre will not be sent back there and will be demobilised in their turn.
    Major LANE-FOX: Is it not a fact that this man, who enlisted in 1915, has as a matter of fact been sent back to Russia?
    Captain GUEST: No, I do not gather that that is so at all.
    Major LANE-FOX: Is he aware that J have received a letter from this man's father, saying that he has been sent back and that he sailed for Russia a few days ago, and if so, is it necessary to send him back to Russia merely for the purpose of demobilisation?
    Captain GUEST: No. There are two distinct questions in connection with this matter. One is the case of a demobilisable man, who certainly should not have been sent back to Russia, and if he has it is a mistake, but in the case of a man who is not to be demobilised, he has to go back to rejoin his unit so as to be demobilised en bloc.
    Major LANE-FOX: Will he give an undertaking, as this man is clearly to be demobilised, that he will be demobilised at once?
    Captain GUEST: Yes, on my own authority I will give that undertaking.
    Captain W. BENN: Does he mean to say that the Secretary of State's pledge that no more should be sent to Russia only applies to North Russia? He said North Russia.
    Captain GUEST: I had not perceived the distinction, and I shall be glad to have notice of that.
    Sir F. HALL: In view of the transport difficulties, cannot some arrangement be
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    made so that those men who are to be demobilised shall not be sent overseas, and thereby save a lot of transport?
    Major NALL: Is it not a fact that a number of men who are in the categories eligible for demobilisation have come back out of their turn on compassionate leave and are expected to go backs?
    Captain GUEST: No. If men are liable for demobilisation they will not be sent back to Russia and ought not to have been sent back if they have.
    Mr. GWYNNE: Will he reconsider the case I brought to his notice some ten days ago of a precisely similar character, where the man was sent back to Russia?
    Captain GUEST: Yes, if the hon. Member will put down a question.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. HOPEasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of his statement that soldiers who were in North Russia last winter will start for home in September, he will give instructions that such men who are now on leave in this country should not again be sent to Russia for the purpose of remaining there only a few weeks?
    Captain GUEST: Instructions have been issued that men on leave from North Russia who are eligible for demobilisation shall be retained, and that the others must return until the force as a whole can be brought away.
    Sir J. HOPE: Does he realise that according to the Memorandum of the Secretary of State for War these men will start for home in September—that is to say, those men who were in Russia last winter—and, therefore, this man; and is it really necessary that he should go back at the end of July, to start back again in four weeks' time, at great expense to the country and considerable inconvenience to the man?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Churchill): Obviously, a point is reached when the time remaining is too short to make it worth while to send a man back, and when that point is reached the man will not be sent back, but we must adhere to the principle that men who go on leave return to their duty at the end of their leave. If we did not adhere to that principle the alternative would be to stop the leave.
    Captain W. BENN: When will the evacuation of North Russia by British troops be completed?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: All the troops except the Military Missions—men who volunteer for the Military Missions—will have left North Russia, if all goes well, before the ice closes in, and we may take that as the early part of November, being the final date when the White Sea will be free; but, of course, the troops there are in contact with the enemy, who is pressing them in many ways and at many points, and as they begin to depart the local Russians are naturally much upset, and much dissatisfaction and weakness occurs behind. Therefore the situation is one which requires very careful attention. A most difficult and delicate operation is in process, and one in which we deserve the fullest support of all sections of the House.
    Sir J. HOPE: Will he not be able to state at what point exactly it is that men will not be sent back? This man to whom I am referring is already promised that he shall be returned to this country in September; and he is still in this country, and it takes a fortnight to get there and another fortnight to come back?
    Mr. CHURCH1LL: I think he had better go out and be there for the critical four weeks when the operations of a critical nature are going on. He should go back to join his comrades there. He was given leave on the understanding that he would return, and I think he ought to return.
    Major LANE-FOX: Cannot this rule about demobilised men on leave, which is clearly a good one in the case of France, be relaxed, so that men eligible for demobilisation should not be sent back to Russia merely to come back home again?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: We are dealing with the cases of quite a few individuals, and I have no doubt we shall get individual hard cases, but I am not prepared to make any modification of the rule that when a man is given leave he returns from his leave.

  FINLAND.
  Mr. W. R. SMITHasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether this country had any Diplomatic or Consular representative or representatives in Finland during the period April to July, 1918; if so, whether reports were received
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  from him or them concerning the way in which the Finnish White (Anti-Socialist) Government suppressed the White Socialist regime; whether he is aware that at the end of the civil war the Red Army, having surrendered to the White and German, forces, many Red soldiers and women were slaughtered by the Finnish and German-soldiery; whether General Mannerheim has been in command of the Finnish White Army co-operating with the Germans; whether General Mannerheim has since then visited London; and whether the-Government recognises or has recognised General Mannerheim as Regent of Finland?
  Sir H. GREENWOOD: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Mr. Grove was His Majesty's Consul at Helsingfors during the period in question. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative. As regards the third part, the attention of His Majesty's Government was drawn to the protest of certain Finnish Socialists on the subject, but they have received no detailed reports in regard to the action of the Finnish and German soldiery. To the fourth part the answer is that General Mannerheim was in command of the Finnish forces at the time the Germans went to Finland, but resigned in May, 1918, with many other Finnish officers, on account of excessive German interference in Finnish-affairs. According to a report received from Helsingfors in June, 1918, General Mannerheim was regarded by the German Staff in Finland as being too pro-Ally. To the fifth, in the affirmative; and to the sixth, that His Majesty's Government have recognised the independence of Finland, of which General Mannerheim is the elected Regent.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask how the recognition of Finland is reconciled with the public declaration of General Denikin that one of his aims is a powerful and indivisible Russia, and is there any intention on the part of the Government to alter their policy with regard to the Finnish Republic in view of the declaration of our Ally General Denikin?
  Sir H. GREENWOOD: It is not for me to make a declaration of policy. The policy in these matters would be expressed by those in high authority who sit on this or other benches.
  Lieut-Commander KENWORTHY: May we take it that there has been no change of policy towards Finland?
  Sir H. GREENWOOD: I can add nothing to the answer I have already given.

  CONSUL-GENERAL TO NEW YORK.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir SAMUEL HOAREasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a Consul-General has been appointed to New York?
  Sir H. GREENWOOD: Negotiations are still going on with a gentleman in every way suitable for this important appointment, but I cannot at present say whether the invitation has been accepted by him.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: If I put this question down in two days' time will the hon. Gentleman be able to answer?
  Sir H. GREENWOOD: I shall be able to give an answer, but whether the answer will be satisfactory to the hon. and gallant Member I cannot say.

  TERRITORIAL FORCE.
  Colonel LAMBERT WARDasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can see his way to publish the conditions of service and enlistment in the Territorial Force at once, as delay is likely to be prejudicial to the future of the force, in that touch will be lost with the old non-commissioned officers and men who would otherwise be of such great value?
  Captain GUEST: It is hoped to promulgate very shortly the future conditions of service in the Territorial Force.
  Colonel WARD: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is becoming increasingly difficult from day to day to keep in touch with the non-commissioned officers, and unless some scheme is formulated very soon we shall lose touch with them altogether?
  Captain GUEST: That is fully appreciated, and the utmost dispatch is being maintained in the matter, which is a very difficult matter.
  Major NALL: Can any steps be taken to reform county associations and to make them more up-to-date?
  Captain GUEST: Yes; and the Secretary of State for War has had two, if not three, conferences with all the secretaries of the local associations, with the object of taking advantage of the experiences of the War and bringing the whole machinery up to date.
  Major NALL: Will that cover re-electing the associations?
  Captain GUEST: I must ask for notice of that question.

  DEMOBILISATION.

    DEEBY RECKUITS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for War whether any Derby recruits are now on. draft for Egypt and the East, and, if so, how many?
    Captain GUEST: Orders have been issued that no soldiers attested under Lord Derby's scheme who are not volunteers are to be sent oversea other than to France and Flanders and the Army of the Rhine.
    Lieut-Commander KENWORTHY: Are any of them now in Egypt or on their way to Egypt?
    Captain GUEST: The answer to the question is as explicit as the question itself.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir F. HALLasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a considerable number of. soldiers who were conscripted towards the end of the War have long since been discharged from the Army, while men who voluntarily attested under the Derby scheme in 1915, and who were not called to the Colours until 1916 in consequence of their services not being required by the State until then, are refused demobilisation; and whether, considering that Peace-has now been signed with Germany, thus reducing the necessity for as many men. to be retained, he will at once take the necessary steps to release from service all the Derby men who attested in 1915?
    Captain GUEST: The demobilisation of the Army has been carried out in accordance with the Regulations issued from time to time. With regard to the remainder of the question I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the Memorandum pub-

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    lished on the 17th instant, which greatly enlarges the scope of the demobilisation Regulations.
    Sir F. HALL: Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that the arrangements that have been come to, or supposed to have been come to, have not been entirely carried out, and hence the reason for this question, and are these men going to be re leased forthwith?
    Captain GUEST: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman can give me a specific case where the Regulations have not been carried out it would be helpful.
    Sir F. HALL: Is he aware that it is the case—at all events, some of those men who attested but did not join the Colours until quite late have been released, while men who joined early in 1916 are being retained?
    Captain GUEST: That forms a general charge against the efficiency of the Regulations, and if the hon. and gallant Member will give me a specific case of hardship it will be very helpful.

    APPLICATIONS FOR RELEASE.
    Mr. MURRAY MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Private David Anderson Tyme, No. 173883, No. 1 Company, Machine Gun Corps (T.R.), D Lines, Harrowby Camp, Grantham, enlisted on the 22ndApril last at the age of seventeen years and two weeks without the consent or knowledge of his parents; and, if so, whether he will yield to the entreaty of the mother that the boy should be discharged?
    Captain GUEST: Inquiries are being made, and I will inform my right hon. Friend of the result as soon as possible.

  GERMAN PRISONERS.
  Captain W. BENNasked the Secretary of State for War when the German prisoners will be restored to their families?
  Captain GUEST: As soon as arrangements can be made after the ratification of the Peace Treaty.

  ARMY DISCHARGE (PURCHASE).
  Mr. HOLMESasked the Secretary of State for War whether the right to purchase discharge can be restored?
  Captain GUEST: I cannot agree to the purchase of discharge from the Army so long as the Naval, Military and Air Force Service Act is in operation.

  TERRITORIAL EFFICIENCY MEDAL.
  Mr. RAPERasked the Secretary of State for War if the decision to disallow commissioned service to count towards the award of the Territorial efficiency medal will be sympathetically reconsidered in view of the fact that, as present Regulations stand, the equivalent of twenty years' service must be performed by a Territorial ranker afterwards commissioned instead of the proper qualifying period of twelve years?
  Captain GUEST: This question has received careful and sympathetic consideration, and an Army Order will shortly be published on the subject.

  JOINT ROADS COMMITTEE.
  Major PRESCOTTasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can give an assurance that the Joint Roads Committee will be dissolved when the Roads Department Branch of the new Ministry of Ways and Communications commences its functions, and that all negotiations with local authorities upon the question of damage to public highways will be dealt with by the new Ministry as the recognised central Government road authority?
  Captain GUEST: A decision as to the use to be made of the Joint Roads Committee on the formation of the Ministry of Ways and Communications will be taken when that Department is being arranged. Meanwhile the existing organisation will be maintained.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

    SOLDIERS WORKING ON LAND.
    Mr. W. R. SMITHasked the Secretary of State for War whether, having regard to the hardship arising in the case of soldiers working on the land away from their homes, without any separation allowance or without any other income beyond their wages, he will so amend the Regula-

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    tions as to make it possible for these men while working at food production to meet their domestic responsibilities?
    Mr. FORSTER: I regret that I can add nothing to the reply given to the hon. Member on 17th July.

    DISABILITY BONUS.
    Lieut.-Colonel W. GUINNESSasked the Pensions Minister whether men pensioned for disability during the year 19.16 are in receipt of the 20 per cent. bonus granted on later pensions; and whether, seeing that the increased cost of living affects all pensions alike, he will take steps to remedy this inequality?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Colonel Sir James Craig): Men invalided in the year 1916 can claim to have their pensions re-assessed under the present Warrants, and so obtain the bonus. In some few cases it is to the man's advantage to re main under the earlier Warrants, even without the bonus.

    APPRENTICES.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. HOPEasked the Minister of Labour whether the allowances to apprentices who joined the Army are payable on the date on which their original apprenticeships would have terminated or on reaching the age of twenty-one, whichever is the earlier; and whether there is any difference in the application of this Regulation to Scotland?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Wardle): The answer to the first part of the question of my hon. and gallant Friend is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative.
    Sir J. HOPE: Is it correct, as stated by some official, that the payment will not be made in Scotland until the man reaches the age of twenty-three?
    Mr. WARDLE: That question has been answered.

  MILITARY CENSORSHIP.
  Mr. HAYDAYasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is engaged upon a scheme for a permanent censorship; and whether this involves the continuance of the staff of censors who have been engaged during the War?
  Captain GUEST: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the latter part therefore does not arise.

  MILITARY DECORATIONS.
  Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to announce his decision as to the issue of a special badge or decoration to be worn by officers and men who have been mentioned in dispatches and who have not already received any special decoration?
  Captain GUEST: The question of awarding a special ribbon or decoration to all those who have been mentioned in dispatches has been carefully considered, and it was decided that it would be un desirable to add to the number of decorations and ribbons already granted.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Did not the Secretary of State for War inform the hon. Member who put the question some weeks ago that he would consider whether it would not be possible to introduce a system of palms, such as obtains in the French Army, in order to satisfy the desire on the part of officers and men who have been mentioned in dispatches to have some sort of recognition, and will the hon. Gentleman bring that to the attention of the Secretary of State?
  Captain GUEST: Yes, I admit there is a discrepancy between the two replies, and I will draw my right hon. Friend's attention to it.

  OFFICERS SENIORITY (NEW ARMIES).
  Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that officers in the New Armies who are given a com mission in the Regular Army have to lose most of their seniority which they have earned by long service during the present War, often, in the fighting line; and whether he will consider the desirability of modifying this Regulation?
  Captain GUEST: A scheme under which non-Regular officers may be granted permanent commissions in the Army is now under consideration. The scheme will provide for the adjustment of seniority

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  of non-Regular officers who have been granted permanent commissions since 5th August, 1914.

  INJURIES IN WAR (COMPENSATION).
  Mr. RAPERasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what steps are being taken definitely to settle the compensation claim of Mr. Thomas Clark Barcliff, in view of the fact that Mr. Barcliff has been discharged as incurable from five hospitals and has also been declared to be suffering from paralysis agitans by every nerve specialist who has examined him?
  Mr. FORSTER: Mr. Barcliff has received the maximum compensation pay able under the scheme framed under the Injuries in War Compensation Act, 1914 (Session 2) which applies to his case. In the opinion of the Treasury Medical Referee, Mr. Barcliff would benefit from a course of special treatment suitable for the malady from which he is suffering, and arrangements are being made for him to receive such treatment.
  Mr. RAPER: Is the right hon. Gentle-man aware that the Treasury Medical Referee is not an authority on nervous complaints, and that these hospitals have reported this man to be absolutely incurable?
  Mr. FORSTER: I do not know. I do not think I can admit that the Treasury Medical Referee is not an authority on nervous complaints. I am most anxious to do anything I can in my power in the case, which is exceedingly hard. I will willingly look into it again to see if any further steps can be taken.

  BELGIANS (RETURN TO THIS COUNTRY).
  Major NEWMANasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that Belgians who were in domestic service during the War, and on the termination of hostilities returned to Belgium on a holiday and to see their relatives are now being refused re-admission to this country; and what steps should be taken by these people and by their late employers to get the necessary Order to enable them to return?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Shortt): The answer to the first paragraph is in the negative. Aliens who, while in employment here, go abroad for a holiday or a visit to relations have no difficulty in securing readmission to this country on production of evidence that they are coming back to resume their work. If the hon. and gallant Member has in mind any instances to the contrary, and will let me have the facts, I will investigate them.

  MINISTRY OF SHIPPING
  Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESSasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Shipping how many officials were employed by the Ministry of Shipping at a salary of £100 a year and upwards or. 11th November, 1918, and at the present time, respectively?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of SHIPPING (Colonel L. Wilson): The number of officials at a salary of £100 a year and upwards were:

  (1) Headquarters—

  11th November, 1521 (excluding 157 Naval and Military Officers and 78 Volunteers).

  Present date, 1,478 (excluding 37 Naval and Military Officers, and 28 Volunteers).

  (2) Out ports (excluding New York and Montreal) —

  11th November, 389 (excluding 82 Officers, and 21 Volunteers). Present date, 114 (excluding 1 Volunteer).

  I would point out to my hon and gallant Friend that the apparent small decrease on the Headquarters Staff figure is accounted for by a recent general increase in salaries.

  OIL IN DERBYSHIRE (ROYALTIES).
  Mr. HOLMESasked the Prime Minister whether the Government have come to a decision concerning the payment of royalties on the oil discovered in Derbyshire?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of MUNITIONS (Mr. J. Hope): I am sorry I am not yet able to make an announcement on this matter.

  UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAYasked the Prime Minister whether he is now m a position to announce the appointment of a British Ambassador to the United States of America?
  Mr. BONAR LAW (Leader of the House): The answer is in the negative.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: I will put down the question again.

  POLAND.
  Mr. R. RICHARSONasked the Prime Minister whether the desire of the Polish Government to have a naval station at Danzig and a fleet of warships in the Baltic has been discussed by the Government or by the Allied and associated Powers; and, if so, whether any decision on this subject has been reached?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: No such suggestion has been discussed by the Government, nor, as far as I know, by the Allies.

  CENTRAL CONTROL BOARD ((LIQUOR TRAFFIC).
  Major NEWMANasked the Prime Minister whether the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) has now been finally dissolved; and is he in a position to say that none of its members will be proposed to the House by the Government for a seat on the new Commission which is to take over the control of the consumption of alcohol and kindred matters?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative.

  WOMEN'S EMANCIPATION BILL.
  Captain W. BENNasked the Lord Privy Seal what course the Government propose to take in reference to the Women's Emancipation Bill?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: "The Sex Disqualification (Removal) Bill," which embodies the Government's policy on this question, is down for Second Reading in another place to-day.

  INCOME TAX (NON-PAYMENT).
  Colonel BURNasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people during the last twelve months have refused to pay Income Tax; and what steps have been taken to enforce payment?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): The in formation asked for in the first part of the question is not available. In cases of refusal or persistent neglect to pay, arrears of Income Tax are recovered in the manner directed by law. In this connection I would invite my hon. and gallant Friend's attention to the provisions of the Taxes Management Act, 1880, Part VI., and of Section 28 (4) of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915—now incorporated in Part VIII. of the Income Tax Act, 1918.

  STATE SUBSIDIES.
  Mr. CLOUGHasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will describe the subsidies, direct and indirect, now being paid by the State in this reconstruction period; if he will state the annual amounts; if he will indicate the expected duration of time during which their payment will continue to be essential; and whether the State is taking action and, if so, what to bring home to the public in respect of each subsidy that what relief is given in one direction has to be met in another out of the national finances?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Sixty millions is provided in the Estimates for payments under the Railway Agreements and £950,000 for Canals Compensation. A Supplementary Estimate for £26,400,000 has been presented in respect of coal. As regards the first two services, some payments from the Exchequer will probably be necessary for at any rate the next two years, though I trust that these will be on a considerably smaller scale than at present. It is not possible at the present time to give any indication as to what Exchequer liabilities in connection with coal supplies may amount to in the future
  Account must also be taken of the out-of-work donation, the estimate for which for the current year is £34,500,000. It is pay able up to 24th November next in the ease of civilians, and for a year after demobilisation in the case of ex-soldiers, sailors and airmen.

  1147
  As regards foodstuffs, the only direct subsidy is the Bread Subsidy. The present rate of this remains approximately that shown in the estimates as £50,000,000, but it is hoped to effect an appreciable reduction of this amount in the course of the financial year. Under present arrangements this subsidy will continue until the average cost of imported wheat reaches such a figure as will enable the 9d. loaf to be produced without cost. It is not anticipated that this will happen before the autumn of 1920.
  Mr. CLOUGH: Does not the Chancellor of the Exchequer think it would be better for all subsidies of all kinds to cease before the next Budget is introduced?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member may be quite certain he will have the sympathy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but whether it is possible is another question.

  CLAIMS AGAINST GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  Mr. CLOUGHasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the claims against the various Government Departments arising out of the War are now being cleared up; what progress, approximately, has been made with their settlement; and whether he anticipates that most of them will have been adjusted by the time of the introduction of the next Budget?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member would specify the claims to which he refers, I will endeavour to give him the information for which he asks.

  EDUCATION GRANTS (SCOTLAND).
  Mr. W. SHAWasked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that the Scottish Educational Department refuses to credit to the late school boards the grants earned by them, and which had not previously been payable before the 15th May; if he is aware that, as a result of this, the ratepayers in the parishes affected will have a serious deficiency to make good; and if he will take steps to see that all the grants earned by the respective school boards are credited to the parishes concerned?
  The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. Munro): Every school board within the financial year ended 15th May, 1919, received the full amount of the grants norm ally payable to them in respect of any of their schools in that year. They have no claim to the payment of any further grant within that year. Section 44 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1872, requires them to make good any deficit in the school fund, from whatever cause arising, by levying a local rate upon the relative parish or burgh. This, I believe, the great majority of school boards have in fact done. The conditions in this regard of the financial year 1918–19 differ in no respect from those of previous years. In lieu of the grants which under the old conditions would have been payable to school boards after the 15th May, grants of equivalent or greater amount will be paid to the new authorities for the benefit not of the rate payers of former school board districts individually, but in relief of the education rate of the whole education area as provided for by Section 13 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1918. No other course is possible, in view of the terms of that Act.

  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  Captain BAGLEYasked the Food Controller what is the value at pre-war prices of the commodities now obtainable with an old age pensioner's income of 7s. 6d. per week?
  The MINISTER of FOOD (Mr. G. Roberts): The average increase in food prices since the outbreak of War is estimated by the Ministry of Labour to be 10a per cent. On this basis, food costing 7s. 6d. to-day would have been procurable for 3s. 7d. before the War. Other essential commodities have increased in price to an even greater extent, but as they do not fall within the purview of my Department I have confined my statement to the position. as it affects food.

  MILLERS' OFFALS (EXPORT).
  Sir F. HALLasked the Food Controller if the Ministry of Food still adhere to their policy of facilitating the export of millers' offals to Denmark and elsewhere abroad; if he is aware that, as the result of this action, English farmers and bacon curers are continuing to experience difficulty in competing with

  1149
  foreign bacon markets, particularly Denmark; if the expert who has been consulted by the Ministry on this and other kindred matters was a person associated with the Danish Bacon Company; if this company represents an association of the principal Danish bacon-curing houses, handling the output of all the chief Danish firms, and working in direct opposition to the British bacon trade; and if, in view of the serious effect resulting from the present policy of the Ministry in developing Danish and American trade at the expense of the Home industry, he will take steps to ensure that the experts who may be consulted in future on matters of the kind in question shall be entirely free of interest in foreign firms competing in the British market?
  Mr. ROBERTS: The export of millers' offals has for a considerable time been prohibited except under licence, the only offals that have left this country being a limited quantity exported in the spring of this year during a period of congestion. The total quantity was under 5,000 tons, and since then no licences have been granted. No person associated with the Danish Bacon Company has been consulted on the subject of millers' offals, and the latter parts of the question, therefore, do not arise.
  Sir F. HALL: Is the right hon. Gentle man aware that there is a report current amongst the authorities, who should know, that there have been 20,000 tons of bran exported to Denmark just recently, and is he aware of the fact that, considering the tremendous trouble the British farmers have to obtain this offal, many of them are considering the question whether it would not be advisable to give up pig-breeding altogether?
  Mr. ROBERTS: I am aware of the difficulty farmers experience in getting offal, but 1 can assure my hon. and gallant Friend the facts as I have stated them are correct. I have sanctioned with extreme reluctance the export of this total of 5,000 tons early in the spring, when driven by the necessity of clearing the mills.
  Sir F. HALL: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake not to allow any further export of offals to Denmark, in order that the quantities we have here may be utilised by the British farmer?
  Mr. ROBERTS: I do not think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will expect me to give a definite undertaking of that sort.
  1150
  I can assure him export is only permitted under licence, and, therefore, I think the interests of the British farmer are adequately safeguarded.
  Sir F. HALL: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman undertake then, under the circumstances, as the Government recognise the necessity for retaining this stuff, to give a promise that no further export of these offals shall take place?
  Mr. ROBERTS: I think my hon. and gallant Friend may accept the assurance that I am as keenly alive as he is to the necessity of retaining feeding-stuffs in this country, and no export will be permitted unless there are adequate supplies in this country.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not the Government policy to encourage exports in every possible way, and has the hon. Gentleman consulted the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this matter before he puts on any restrictions upon available exports?
  Mr. ROBERTS: I am only responsible for foodstuffs.
  Major E. WOOD: Before the right hon. Gentleman comes to a final decision on this point, will he bear in mind that foodstuffs have risen over 100 per cent.?
  Mr. ROBERTS: Yes, Sir; I will.

  RABIES (MUZZLING ORDERS).
  Major NEWMANasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware, now that the holiday season is commencing, of the hardship caused to the dog owners in the Metropolitan area by the Regulation for bidding the movement of dogs into areas where the Muzzling Order does not apply; and is it his intention to apply the Muzzling Order to England as a whole for, at any rate, the months of August and September?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Sir Arthur Boscawen): The Board are aware of the inconvenience that is caused to dog owners in the Metropolitan area by the Regulation forbidding the movement of dogs from that area except to veterinary premises. The Board regard restriction of movement as the most effective means of preventing the spread of rabies, and

  1151
  it is within their knowledge that it has prevented the introduction of the disease into another area. The restriction of movement would, therefore, be maintained even if a general Muzzling Order were imposed, for which there is no case. The measures adopted by the Board are meeting with such success in stamping out the outbreaks of rabies that I ask the hon. and gallant Member to have patience and continue to submit to some inconvenience rather than imperil the satisfactory position that has been attained.
  Major NEWMAN: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider the propriety of setting up State homes for Metropolitan dogs? How can a man go away if his dog as at home?
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I will certainly consider any reasonable suggestion; but I would like to make it perfectly clear that the restrictions on the movements of dogs must be maintained?
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Why should not pet dogs undergo the same restrictions as are imposed on cattle in the matter of foot-and-mouth disease?
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I quite agree. In both cases the object is to prevent the spread of disease.
  Major LANE-FOX: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman realise the very strong feeling there is amongst the residents in those areas where rabies does not yet exist against their dogs being infected from other areas by dogs being brought in?
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I am quite aware of that, and that is precisely what the Board wishes to prevent,
  Major NEWMANasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether several cases of rabies have again been notified in the Glamorgan and Monmouthshire coal-mining districts; will he say if the Muzzling Order is being strictly enforced in the whole of South Wales and Monmouthshire; and is it in tended to put in force in the districts where the latest outbreaks occurred of a similar regulation to that made recently for the western suburbs of London, and require all dogs to be led on a chain as well as muzzled?
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: During the period 18th June—17th July seven oubreaks of
  1152
  rabies have been confirmed in Monmouth-shire and Glamorgan. Five of these were in areas to which special restrictions apply, the other two were at Cwmbran, Monmouth-shire, and special restrictions have-been imposed on an area which includes that place. Those restrictions require leading as well as muzzling.

  FLYING-BOAT SERVICE.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Under-Secretary of State to the Air Ministry whether it is intended to establish a regular service by flying-boat between the North-East Coast of England and Northern Europe; and, if so, under what conditions?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Major-General Seely): It is not intended to run a Government service between the East Coast of England and Northern Europe. Those flights which have been and are being undertaken are to demonstrate the possibility of such flights and to gain experience.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Will encouragement be given to private enterprise to establish some such service?
  Major-General SEELY: Oh, yes, Sir. Every encouragement that can properly be given will be given. There is no doubt a great future for flying-boats, especially to these countries.
  Captain W. BENN: Are any negotiations going on with the Post Office towards set ting up an aerial mail?
  Major-General SEELY: Perhaps it would be better to put a question to the Postmaster-General on that point. In regard to flying-boats no actual proposals are now before me, but any such proposals will receive careful consideration.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Have any negotiations taken place with Northern neutral countries, with a view to joint action in establishing such ser vices or assisting them by private enterprise in the matter?
  Major-General SEELY: That is rather a large question. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman would put down a question on that specific point.

  FRENCH IMPORTS (DECREES).
  Captain W. BENNasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the French President has signed decrees sup pressing all prohibitions in regard to imports except in the case of about a dozen articles; and whether he will take similar action?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Bridge-man): By French decrees of 14th June and 8th July all but a small number of the prohibitions of import have been with drawn. At the same time, the French Government have considered it necessary, in order to protect French industries, which would be exposed to competition on the withdrawal of the import prohibitions, to increase very largely (in some cases by 200 per cent.) the existing import duties on manufactured goods. The object of this action appears to be to obtain the economic results which flow from Protection through import duties.
  Captain BENN: Was the purpose of the French in withdrawing the import restrictions to lower the price to the consumer in France?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am afraid I cannot answer as to what was in the mind of the French.
  Sir F. HALL: Does His Majesty's Government intend to take the necessary steps to protect the industries of this country to putting a tariff on foreign manufactured articles?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: That question should be addressed to the Prime Minister.
  Captain BENN: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the object of our own restrictions is to protect the British manufacturer?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The object of our own restrictions has been very carefully discussed in one, i not two, Debates in this House.
  Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is considerable opposition to the proposals of the hon. and gallant Gentleman near me (Sir F. Hall)?
  Sir F. HALL: May I—
  Mr. SPEAKER: Further questions had better be put on the Paper.

  COAL SUPPLIES.
  Major Earl WINTERTONasked the President of the Board of Trade for what reason the Coal Control Department has informed the Worthing Gas Company that as from 1st August all coal supplied to the company must be sea-borne and not rail-borne, in view of the fact that the average cost of sea-borne coal to the South of England is 4s. to 5s. a ton over the cost of rail-borne coal?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I would refer my Noble Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave yesterday to a similar question put by the hon. and gallant Member for Tonbridge.
  Sir j. RANDLES: In this question as to whether sea-borne or rail-borne coal is most convenient, may 1 ask the hon. Gentleman whether the President of the Board of Trade will give a proper and clear official indication as to how far the Board intends to enforce these Regulations? Was not the President yesterday under stood to say that the Regulation would not be enforced? Will the right hon. Gentle man make it clear, because very great in convenience and uncertainty has been caused in ports like Manchester, where it is doubtful as to whether they will be able to bunker ships, and owing to the indefiniteness with which the question is being treated?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I will represent what my hon. Friend says to the President of the Board of Trade.

  RAILWAY ADMINISTRATION.

    CONGESTION OF GOODS TRAFFIC, NEWPOHT.
    Mr. LEWIS HASLAMasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the serious congestion of goods traffic at Newport (Mon.), occurring especially during recent months; whether he is aware of the heavy financial and business losses incurred by traders owing to the delay in the transport and delivery of goods, sometimes several weeks intervening between consignment and delivery; if his attention has been called to the fact that, in order to obtain delivery of goods, traders have to send goods in relatively smaller packages by passenger train, thus involving heavy increased expenditure in

    1155
    freightage and labour; whether he will cause inquiries to be made with the view of improving the present methods of working in connection with the transport and delivery of goods, with a special reference to the changed conditions incidental to the introduction of shorter working hours; and will he consider the desirability of introducing the two-shift system and the avoidance of overtime working?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am aware that considerable inconvenience has been caused by the congestion of traffic that has occurred at ports. The Departments and authorities concerned are taking all possible steps with a view to bringing about an improvement in the situation.

    EMPTIES (COLLECTION).
    Mr. HASLAMasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the serious delay and losses incurred in the collection of empties; and will he consider the desirability of using motor lorries which may not now be required for Army purposes to relieve the congestion of goods traffic and for the collection and distribution of goods?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: With regard to the first part of this question, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer given yesterday to a somewhat similar question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for Westbury. Steps have already been taken in the direction indicated in the second part of the question.

    GUNS AND WAR VEHICLES.
    Major NALLasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether he is aware that the quantity of guns and technical war vehicles now being moved about the country by rail is absorbing wagons which are required for the removal of food from the ports; and whether this traffic can be deferred to a more convenient date in order to relieve railway congestion?
    Mr. HOPE: I understand that the War Office will answer this question.
    Major NALL: I have received a written answer from the War Office, and may I ask whether the Financial Secretary is aware that a considerable proportion of this traffic consists of light field guns and limber wagons that are occupying ordinary
    1156
    railway trucks, and could not this traffic be dealt with in some other way instead of congesting the ordinary railway traffic?

  MINISTRY OF FOOD (STAFF).
  Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESSasked the Food Controller how many officials were employed by the Ministry of Food at a salary of —100 a year and upwards on 11th November, 1918, and at the present time, respectively?
  Mr. ROBERTS: The number of salaried officials employed in my Department at 11th November, 1918, was 2,650; it is now 1,500. If members of the subordinate clerical staff in receipt of £100 a year or more be included, the total numbers are:

  11th November, 1918

  …

  …

  5,000

  Present time

  …

  …

  3,250

  I may add, however, that in view of the decision of the Government that the Ministry of Food shall continue over the coming winter, my difficulty is not to reduce the staff of the Department but to maintain it.
  Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is a fact that these salaries are paid out of money charged to British cattle, while no part of it consists of charges on imported meat?
  Mr. ROBERTS: I would not say all of it is borne that way, but it is a fact that general administrative charges of the Department arc included in the prices charged for food.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Arising out of the decision to keep the Food Ministry in being, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is the policy of the Ministry to take on ex-soldiers and ex-sailors—
  Mr. SPEAKER: That hardly arises out of the question of the Paper, which deals solely with the number of officials employed.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    BEER (ENHANCED PROFITS).
    Mr. R. YOUNGasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if the enhanced profits due to the increases previously authorised have been

    1157
    only partially absorbed by raising the Beer Duty from 50s. to 70s. a standard barrel and are only in part earmarked for the benefit of the consumer by the provisions of the new Beer (Prices and Descriptions) Order; whether in this case these authorisations have resulted in the receipt by the brewers of a residue of enhanced profit after paying the increased duty and providing for compliance with the provisions of the Order; whether in that case steps will be taken by the Government as soon as possible to absorb this residue; whether the authorisation announced on 2nd July of an increase beyond the 26,000,000 barrels standard will, in fact, lead to a further increased output of beer and therefore to a further increased profit; and, if so, what steps are to be taken by the Government to ensure that the whole of this further profit will be absorbed either in improving the quality of beer or in increased receipts by the National Exchequer?
    Mr. ROBERTS: The enhanced profits of brewers and retailers of beer due to the removal of restrictions on output were partially absorbed by the increased Beer Duty, and will further be considerably diminished by the operation of the amended Beer Prices Order after 1st August next. It is difficult to predict the future consumption of beer at present prices or to estimate the cost of materials and manufacture. Until it is clear that there will be, in fact, some residue of enhanced profit it is impossible to say what will be the best method of absorption.

  OUT-OF-WORK DONATION.
  Mr. HAYDAYasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of any case where a girl through refusing an offer of employment overseas has been disallowed the out-of-work donation; and whether a decision of this description would be in accordance with the policy of his Department?
  Mr. WARDLE: I am not aware of any case in which a girl has been disallowed out-of-work donation for refusal to accept an offer of employment overseas; nor do I think that, generally speaking, such a refusal would be regarded by the Ministry of Labour as a refusal of suitable employment involving disallowance of donation.

  SOUTHLANDS GRAMMAR SCHOOL.
  Mr. HAYDAYasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the accommodation provided for the teaching of boys and girls in Southlands Grammar School, Littlestone-on-Sea, New Romney, Kent, is insufficient; whether, in view of the fact that the governors are mostly non-resident and not in touch with the school, he will approach the Kent Education Committee as to the possibility of the school being transferred to them; whether he is aware that at present there are a number of children of well-to-do parents attending the school at little cost; and whether steps will be taken to secure that this school shall be available for the children of people with limited means who are unable to send their children elsewhere for higher education?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Fisher): The school is conducted by trustees in premises held on a short lease, and, in view of the sparse-ness of the popuation and of the very limited resources of the foundation, is in the nature of an experiment. If the experiment is successful, the question of placing the school on a more stable basis will have to be considered. The Kent local education authority are fully seised of the circumstances of the case, and may be expected to make proposals for dealing with the higher education of this part of their area when submitting the scheme required under the Education Act, 1918.
  The Board have no information as to the class of children at present attending the school. The tuition fees are £12 a year, and the trustees are required to maintain at least two free places for "poor children" from public elementary schools. It is understood that, in addition, individual trustees provide some partial exemptions from fees. As regards the trustees, the-Board's records show that they are mainly drawn from the locality, and that they have been active in promoting the interests of the school and in. pressing its claims for support from the local education authority.

  BARNBOW SHELL-FILLING FACTORY.
  Major LANE-FOXasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions for what purpose the Barnbow shell-filling factory is now being used; whether he is aware that a large number

  1159
  of new railway locomotives and new box railway wagons are standing in the sidings with no protection from the weather; what is intended to be the destination of these locomotives and wagons; and whether, in view of the shortage in the country, some use can be made of them now?
  Mr. HOPE: The Barnbow shell-filling factory is now being used for storing surplus Government property of various kinds. Railway locomotives and wagons are stored there pending disposal, in order to clear the contractors' works. They are at present stored in the open as covered storage is not available, but precautions have been taken to prevent their deterioration. Arrangements arc being made for pooling surplus locomotives and wagons for use by British railway companies. As soon as the details have been settled with the Railway Executive Committee the locomotives and wagons will be distributed among the different companies.

  INCOME TAX.
  Mr. RAFFANasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the estimated net revenue of the £46,000,000 under Schedule A of the Income Tax for the current financial year includes Income Tax obtained in respect of quarries, mines, and the various properties specified in Rules1, 2, and' 3, respectively, of Schedule A, No. III., of the Income Tax Act, 1918, which under Rule 8 of that number, are taxed in general accordance with the rules applicable to Schedule D, or whether the income derived from these properties is treated for statistical purposes as income under Schedule D?
  Mr. BALDWIN (Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury): The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and to the second part in the affirmative.

  MINERS' STRIKES.

    STATEMENT BY MR. BONAR LAW.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: May I ask the Leader of the House if he can give us any further information about the position of the miners' strike?
    Mr BONAR LAW: I have very little in formation to give. In Yorkshire there is practically no change. In a few more
    1160
    mines pumping has been stopped, but in a small number it has been resumed. The strike has spread to a slight extent to Lancashire, Nottinghamshire, and Monmouth shire. In Lancashire 7,100 men are out, in Nottinghamshire 20,000, and in Monmouth-shire 11,000.
    Mr. G. TERRELL: Will these men be eligible for unemployment pay?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: If my hon. Friend had noticed the terms of the Regulation, he would have seen that they were not eligible for out-of-work pay.
    Sir HENRY DALZIEL: Can the right hon. Gentleman state what is the real issue on which the strike has taken place?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: That is as difficult a question as I have ever had put to me. The information we get to-day is to this effect. Some of them were opposed to the increase of 6s. per ton; some were out because food prices were too high; some because we still have troops in Russia; and some because they wanted the abolition of Conscription.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: When can we hope to have a definite announcement of the policy of the Government with reference to the mines, particularly with a view to clearing up the questions which are agitating the strikers at the present moment?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman means when can we give a decision with regard to the Sankey Report, I cannot add anything to what I said yesterday.
    Mr. KENNEDY JONES: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is some particular person behind this unrest?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: As a matter of fact, I do not think so. We have no evidence of it.
    Sir J. RANDLES: Has there been any reply to the communication sent to the Miners' Federation?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: No; but we have received news that the President of the Miners' Federation is returning to London to-day.
    An HON. MEMBER: Are sailors actually at work in the mines?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I believe so, but I have received no definite statement to that effect

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. ADAMSON: Can the Leader of the House stats what business will be taken on Thursday?
Mr. BONAR LAW: Thursday is Supply day. The first business will be the Navy Vote on Account, followed, if there be time, by the Colonial Office Vote.
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on the I and Settlement (Facilities) Bill be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)"— [Mr. Bonar Law

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
  STANDING COMMITTEE C.
  Sir Samuel Roberts reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from (Standing Committee C: Mr. McCurdy; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. George Roberts.

  STANDING COMMITTEE D.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee D: Mr. Bridgeman.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to, —
  Llanelly Rural District Water Bill, with Amendments.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer powers on the National Assembly of the Church of England constituted in accordance with the constitution attached as an Appendix to the Addresses presented to His Majesty by the Convocations of Canterbury and York on the tenth day of May, nineteen hundred and nineteen; and for other purposes connected therewith."[National Assembly of the Church of England (Powers) Bill [Lords.]
  And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to consolidate the local rates leviable in the city and county of Newcastle-upon-Tyne and to make provision with respect there to; and for other purposes." [Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation (Rates) Bill [Lords.]

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation (Rates) Bill [Lords],
Read the first time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  LAND SETTLEMENT (FACILITIES) BILL
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  LAND SETTLEMENT (FACILITIES) BILL

    NEW Clause. — (Provisions as to Commons and Open Spaces.)
    (1) Any land which is, or forms part of, a Metropolitan common within the meaning of the Metropolitan Commons Act, 1866, or which is subject to regulation under an order or scheme made in pursuance of the Inclosure Acts, 1845 to 1899, or under any local Act or otherwise, or which is or forms part of any town or village green, or of any area dedicated or appropriated as a public park, garden, or pleasure ground, or for use for the purposes of public recreation, shall not be acquired by a council under the principal Act except under the authority of an order for compulsory purchase made under the principal Act, which so far as it relates to such land shall be provisional only, and shall not have effect unless it is confirmed by Parliament.
    (2) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, in giving or withholding their consent under this Act to the. appropriation by a council for the purpose of small holdings or allotments of any land to which the preceding Sub-section applies or which forms part of any common, shall have regard to the same considerations and shall, if necessary, hold the same inquiries as are directed by the Commons Act, 1876, to be taken into consideration and held by the Board before forming an opinion whether an application under the Inclosure Acts shall be acceded to or not.
    (3) Where an order for compulsory purchase to which this Section applies or a consent by the Board to the appropriation of land provides for giving other land in exchange for the common or open space to be purchased or appropriated the order for compulsory purchase or an order made by the Board in relation to the consent for appropriation may vest the land given in ex-change in the persons in whom the common or open space purchased or appropriated was vested subject to the same rights, trusts, and incidents, as attached to the common or open space and discharges the land purchased or appropriated from all rights, trusts, and incidents, to which it was previously subject.—[Sir A. Boscawen.]
    Brought up, and read the first time.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Sir Arthur Boscawen): I beg to move,
    "That the Clause be read a second time."
    The object of this Clause is to take precautions with regard to common land, commons, and open spaces which have been in any way dedicated to the public. The House may be aware that during the Committee stage we took pains to exempt from the drastic operation of Clause 1 all common land. Under this Clause, which goes a good deal further, we deal only with
    1182
    land that has in some way or another been dedicated to the public. It provides that no such land should be acquired for small holdings or allotments under this Bill except with the sanction of this House or, in other words, by means of a Provisional Order. An hon. Friend of mine (Sir Henry Cowan), who is, I believe, the mouthpiece of the Farmers' Federation, has put down certain Amendments to my new Clause which will carry the matter further still. He proposes that no part of any land that has been dedicated to the public shall be either acquired or appropriated in any way for the purposes of this Bill. I am quite willing to meet him, and, if he moves his Amendments, I shall be willing to accept them, because we do not wish in any way to interfere with the quit rights of the public as regards open spaces and commons that have been dedicated to them. Although we are most anxious to acquire and appropriate all suitable land for the purposes of this Bill, we realise that there are certain lands which should not be so used, and open spaces and commons fall under that head.
    Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: I want to say one word on behalf of the allotment-holders of the country with regard to the decision which my hon. Friend has just announced. I very much regret that he has not seen his way to move his Clause and leave it as it stands, because his acceptance of the Amendments of my hon. Friend simply means that there will be no possibility of any allotments being upon any of the commons of the country. I know that that raises an important question of principle, but in very many cases the allotments in these commons do no harm, and, in fact, do a great amount of good. They occupy very little space, often on the fringe of the common, and I suggest to my hon. Friend that ho should continue to give that encouragement to allotment-holders that ho has always given since he has been in office, by permitting them to occupy such commons with the con sent of this House. The occupation of commons by allotment-holders is serving a very useful purpose. They have, undoubtedly, done a great deal for the country, and the necessity for allotments to day is almost as great as it was two or three years ago. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend will reconsider the matter, and will allow the allotment-holders of the country to occupy such portions of the commons as will not greatly interfere with

    1183
    the public; use of them, especially seeing that, according to his own Clause, they will have to come to the House and obtain sanction. The allotment-holders of the country are very greatly perturbed as to their position. There are some 2,000,000 of them, and all over the country notices to quit have been given. This Clause, with the Amendments, will simply mean that a very large number of them will be dispossessed.
    Brigadier-General COLVIN: I should like to support what has been said by the last speaker. I have in mind two very large commons—Epping Forest and Wan-stead Flats—portions of which have been used during the last few years for allotments. The allotment-holders, numbering many hundreds, are in danger of being evicted. Of course, they quite understood, when they took these allotments, that they were liable to be turned out at the termination of the War, because they did not get the two-years' grace. Many of them came forward in the first instance for patriotic reasons, but they have acquired a taste for cultivation, and they ought to be encouraged in every possible way. It would be very bad policy to turn them out. These places—Epping Forest and Wanstead Flats—are practically the only available places, and they are very large. A great deal was poor, marshy, boggy land, of no use at all. It is now very productive—a great deal of money, as well as labour having been spent upon it. I do not for a moment suggest that playgrounds or places of recreation should be interfered with, but there are an enormous number of open spaces, odd corners of which have been cultivated as allotments, and those allotments, I think, ought to remain permanently. Those who came forward on patriotic grounds and who cultivated the land should be given security of tenure as a reward, and should be allowed to retain the land. Many hon. Members will agree that in the past the best use has not been made of the commons generally. One common of about 400 acres, near London, for instance, has been allowed to go back and back until now it is nothing but a mass of ant-hills, whereas, if it had been properly looked after, it would be very productive. Other commons, especially in the East, have been so neglected that they grow nothing but gorse. In places like these every encouragemnt should be given to
    1184
    people to make them more productive. The allotment movement is one of the best that has ever been started in this country. It ought to be taken seriously, and we ought to do all that we can to get more and more allotment-holders.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: May I explain that the whole of this new Clause is limited to commons and open spaces that have been specifically dedicated to the public? It does not refer to all commons. Secondly, the introduction of the Clause and of the words which my hon. Friend wishes to move will not mean any interference with the position of existing allotment-holders. They will come under Clause 24, and will be permitted to remain for a certain period, as was always under stood. Therefore, the objections which have been raised and which would, I submit, come more properly on the specific Amendment, are really rather illusory.
    Mr. ACLAND: I have been very much pulled in two directions with regard to this matter. I happen to be a member both of the Executive Committee of the Commons and Footpaths Preservation Society and of the Allotments Committee of the Agricultural Organisation Society, and, therefore, I shall be abused heartily, whichever line I take. As a matter of fact, it seems to be that the rights of the people interested in commons and open spaces ought to come in this particular Clause, limited as it is. The biggest point that I see is that if the House allows local authorities—even subject to the approval of Parliament—to appropriate something which has been dedicated as an open space, we shall have other persons doing the same thing later on. It may be—and, in deed, it is the fact—that a great deal of common land is not properly used. On the other hand, we anticipate that towns will spread, and that land which has once-been dedicated may, later on—it may be 200, 300, or 400 years hence—prove of the utmost value to the locality if retained absolutely as open spaces for the use of the public or as common land. I think we ought in these matters to take a long view, and although I have great sympathy with the allotment-holders, I do hold that land which has been definitely dedicated to the public should be retained for public use, and should not be, so to speak, undedicated.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause accordingly read a second time
    Sir H. COWAN: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1) after the word "recreation" ["for the purposes of public recreation"], to insert the words
    "shall not be appropriated under this Act by a council for small holdings or allotments and."
    In view of the very sympathetic reception which the Parliamentary Secretary has indicated he is willing to give to my Amendment, I feel I ought not to detain the House by speaking at any great length; but, inasmuch as the merits of the proposal are very considerable, and will certainly bear investigation, and in view of a certain amount of opposition which has developed on these benches, I think I ought to explain briefly the purport of the Amendment, to say on whose behalf I am moving it, and to give the general reasons which animate those be hind it. The object of the Amendment is to ensure that commons, public parks or pleasure grounds, recreation grounds and playing fields shall not be permanently alienated or appropriated for the purposes of small holdings or allotments. All the Amendments which I have to move are supported by organisations of which I will presently give a list, and it will be recognised that they constitute a very large and formidable body of public and expert opinion, and, therefore, deserve to carry a great deal of weight. The societies in question are: The Commons and Footpaths Preservation Society, the Federation of Rambling Clubs, the Kyrle Society, the London Club Cricket Conference, the Metropolitan Public. Gardens Association, the London Playing Fields Society, London Society, the National Trust for Places of Historic Interest and Natural Beauty, the Society for the Promotion of National Reserves, and the Conference of the National Associations Governing Sport. These societies, as I have said, not only represent a great body of public opinion, amongst whom they claim to be experts, but they also represent popular opinion, because they have behind them no fewer than 2,000,000 members of cricket and football clubs and other athletic societies. These societies protest against any curtailment of existing public rights in these open spaces, commons, playing fields, and public parks, and the reasons why we have felt it necessary to suggest the Amendments are to be found in the very wide powers which the Bill, as drafted, confers upon local authorities, enabling them to appropriate open spaces vested in them, for allotments and other
    1186
    purposes which were never contemplated by those who conveyed to them the land in question for specific public purposes.
    4.0 P.M.
    Under the Clause, as drafted, these public bodies can override every covenant and every condition contained in any trust deed or in any deed of gift or conveyance. I submit that this is contrary to public policy, and to the consistent policy of Parliament during a period of not less than fifty years. Since the date, at any rate, of the Commons Act,1876, Parliament has consistently maintained that open spaces, once dedicated to the public, should be religiously preserved for the purposes for which they were given. There has been no variation of that. Parliament has never gone back on that position or weakened in the slightest degree in its adherence to it. I would like to give the House one or two modern instances to show that this practice of fifty years ago has continued down to the present date. In the Housing and Town Planning Act of 1909 a provision was inserted requiring the consent of Parliament to any acquisition of open spaces or dedicated common land for the purposes of that Act. In the Small Holdings and Allotments Act of 1908 a new step was taken, and a new precedent created, for it was provided that new common land could be created for the benefit of the cultivators of those small holdings and allotments. In the Forestry Bills now before Parliament there are similar safeguards, while in the Development Act, one of the most important of recent Acts of Parliament—a far-reaching measure, containing, among other things, provisions for afforestation—there are also safeguards for the protection of common land. We do not rely merely upon the practice of Parliament. We rely also on pledges given by the President of the Board of Agriculture. I have in my hand a copy of a statement made by Lord Ernie as recently as April last, in reply to a deputation which waited on him on this subject, and these are his words:
    "It has been clearly indicated that where allotments have been laid out on parks or commons, as for instance on London parks, they must be given up. We hold that the health and recreation of the large body of people who use public land is of interest over the few who have cultivated the allotments. You may take it that the Board will work on those lines."
    That was a very definite pledge, and I need not say I recognise how fully the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board is prepared to act. upon it. Lord Ernle's statement was emphasised, or, rather, a

    1187
    similar statement was made in equally effective terms by the Prime Minister on the 4th April, 1918, in reply to a memorial from Members of this House, when he said:
    "The Board of Agriculture has in cases where land was difficult to obtain sanctioned the temporary use of common land, parks and open spaces, on the stipulation that the land should be restored to its original use after the conclusion of the War."
    And the Prime Minister added:
    "The Board intends to enforce that stipulation."
    During the War, under the benign influence of D.O.R.A., very numerous allotments were laid out on common lands and open spaces. National necessity overruled every other consideration. I shall be the first to admit that permission was properly given, and that the allotment-holders who contributed to the production of food at a time of national crisis deserve the best thanks of the country. But that cruel necessity has passed, and the comparatively small amount of food produced on these allotments—I refer only to the allotments on open spaces—is not vitally essential now for our food supply. The Order issued under D.O.R.A. empowering the making of allotments on open spaces and common lands provided that they might continue for twelve months after the War. Public opinion in many localities is pro testing now against their continuance even temporarily. That is a consideration that may be taken into account in an argument against any permanent alienation of such lands for such purposes. Certainly the Board of Agriculture is under an implied obligation to these persons at any rate to allow them to occupy them for the period of the guarantee. The London County Council, so far as the public parks and open spaces in which it is interested are concerned, takes the view that this condition should be complied with, but should not be stretched more than a very little beyond the promised point. The London County Council has already decided that the cultivation of open spaces urgently required for games and purposes of recreation must cease in January, 1920, and in other cases in January, 1921. Local authorities, however, are subject to pres sure from various quarters, especially round about elections, and they require protection. If it were only for that reason we should object and object strongly, as
    1188
    we do, to the inclusion in this Bill of any provision which would seem to make it possible for anybody to hope that common lands may be made available permanently for allotments. There is a dearth of public open spaces. Taking the whole of London, there is only one acre of open space to every 670 of the inhabitants; but if we take a congested district, such as Southwark, there is only one acre of open space to 14,449 persons. Nobody would suggest that is reasonable We have all seen and been shocked to see children playing in the streets, very often to the danger of their lives, especially in these days of motor traffic. A Ministry of Health has been set up. That shows a growing concern on the part of the State for the health and physical well-being of the people. It would be a retrograde step, at the beginning of this new era of national reconstruction, to deprive the people of their parks and to turn to the uses of a small minority lands which have been dedicated to the people as a whole
    Major HILLS: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I feel very strongly that in this case; the right of the public must come first. Just see the effect if these words are not put in the Clause Take the ordinary local body which has to find allotments. If it has the power to put allotment holders upon common land, there is a very great temptation to do it, because it may save land which it would rather keep in its own hands. If the local body does that, it is bad for the locality, which loses an open space, and it is also bad for the allotment holder himself, because he is often put on very bad land. The question is wider, even, than that. If it is right to allow the allotment holder to remain permanently on common land, ail the Enclosure Acts were right. In a small way, this is repeating the mistake made in the last century. Once you get any common land put to the purposes of allotments, you will never establish public rights again. The great want is places to which all the world can go for pleasure and recreation. It is a serious want. There is a great deal too much enclosed land in this country. We want places where the public can walk and amuse themeslves. That want will increase as manufactures and population increase. I am extremely glad the Parliamentary Secretary is accepting this Amendment. I should regard it as a very

    1189
    retrograde step if he allowed land which has been dedicated to the public to revert to private occupation. I hope the House will support the Government.
    Brigadier-General COLVIN: I am sorry I do not agree with this Amendment. I must put forward, on be-half of allotment holders, a protest, although I should be the last person to interfere with any games, or sports, or pastimes, or recreation. I submit that allotments are a recreation and that a plot of land will occupy a great many more people than it would occupy if games of cricket or football were played on the land. It is not everybody who can play games. As we grow older most if us dig and enjoy the cultivation of land. That ought to be taken into consideration. When the Enclosure Acts were passed, allotments were not considered. Now they ought to have every consideration. I trust that opportunities for using only a certain percentage of common land for the purposes of allotments will be given.
    Dr. WORSFOLD: I desire to support most cordially the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Sir II. Cowan). He was speaking on be-half of societies representing 2,000,000 people, but there are 10,000,000 or 15,000,000 little ones—the boys and girls—for whom the streets are the only places of recreation. If schools are necessary, so are recreation-grounds for those who use them. Recreation grounds are as necessary to the well-being of the subjects of the State as are the schools and institutions to their mental welfare. It is no use trying to educate mentally those who are starving physically. If the two do not work side by side, one or the other must come to the ground. Let us look at the matter quite calmly. There are other things than bricks and mortar and other things than vegetables that make up the welfare of the individual who becomes a member of the State. Now the period of the War is over, when the young ones especially are seeking some diversion for their physical energy, never was there a more clamant outcry for exercises in the right channels than at the present time. The call on every side is for recreation grounds. There is a vegetation which appeals to the allotment holder. There is another vegetation, the fungus and moss of the slums, which clouds the intellect and which we should remove. I heartily support the Amendment.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: As I have already indicated in speaking on the Second Reading of the Clause the Government are prepared to accept this Amendment. I should like to make our position perfectly clear, although indeed it has been made clear by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Camborne (Mr. Acland). We are in no way the enemies of allotments; far from it. I should say there is no more enthusiastic supporter of allotments in the House than I am myself. After all, it is a question of how this land can best be used. When it comes to a decision whether this land—not all common land, but land that has been specifically dedicated to public purposes for the use of the public generally, for the recreation of the children, for games and sports, for lungs and breathing spaces in large towns, and so forth—is to be preserved as common land for the purposes to which it is dedicated and, there fore, for the benefit of all, or whether it is to be used for allotments, excellent as they are, for comparatively speaking a few people, we must make up our minds that the purposes of common land and open spaces must prevail. As I said before, this does not apply to all common lands, but only to such common land as has been specifically dedicated to the public as an open space. The carrying of this Amendment will not interfere with the rights of those people who, for example, in the London parks, have been cultivating allotments up to the present time and who have been promised a further term. This only deals with appropriation in future. These people are already using this land for the purpose, and we shall deal with them under Clause 24, fixing a term after which they will have to relinquish their holdings. Therefore, so far as existing allotment-holders go, their case is in no way pre judiced by the carrying of this Amendment. On the main question my hon. Friends have proved their point, and the Government, therefore, feel bound to accept the Amendment.
    Sir K. WOOD: I am obliged to the Parliamentary Secretary for the assurance he has given. I should like to make one or two observations on what has been said by my hon. Friends behind me, one of whom stated that the necessity for these allotments has passed. I totally dissent from that view. I am sure that my hon. Friend would be one of the first to say that the necessity for allotments is as great to-day as it was two years ago.
    Sir H. COWAN: My hon. Friend misunderstood me. What I said was, that it was not so acute as to require allotments on open spaces.
    Sir K. WOOD: The suggestion made by the allotment-holders is in no sense a suggestion directed against boys and girls playing upon commons. I do not know whether my hon. Friend has been on any of these commons lately, but I venture to tell him that there is plenty of space for allotment-holders and for boys and girls. I know commons where cricket pitches are permanently roped off. There is very little difference between permanently roping off a cricket pitch and appropriating it for the use of eleven or more players, and permanently appropriating it to allotments which attract hundreds of people. While I am bound to submit to what the Parliamentary Secretary has said, I want to show the House that there is another side of the matter. There is not that vision which some of my hon. Friends see of these commons being thronged with thousands of people so that there is no room left for an allotment-holder. As a matter of fact, unfortunately, most of these commons are very little used. The allotments which are there are just on the fringes. While I am bound to submit to the judgment of the House, I still entertain the opinion that the allotment-holders on the fringes of these commons are doing useful work that ought to be encouraged, and that they are not in any way interfering with the public use to which these commons have been dedicated.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    After the word "council" ["shall not be acquired by a council"], insert the words
    "or by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries."
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words
    "to which the preceding Sub-section applies or."
    After the word "common" ["or which forms part of any common"], insert the words
    "and in the exercise by the Board of their powers of acquiring land under this Act."
    Leave out the words
    "if necessary" ["and shall if necessary hold the same inquiries"— [Sir H. Cowan.]
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the word
    "discharges" ["and discharges the land purchased or appropriated".]
    1192
    and insert instead thereof the word
    "discharge." —[Sir A. Boscawen.]
    At the end, add
    "(4) Nothing in the principal Act shall be deemed to authorise the acquisition of any land which forms part of the trust property to which the National Trust Act, 1917, applies.''—[Sir H. Cowan.]
    Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE. —(Power of Appropriation of Land.)
    (1) A council of a borough, urban district, or parish may, in a case where no power of appropriation is otherwise provided, with the consent of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Local Government Board, and subject to such conditions as to the repayment of any loan obtained for the purpose of the acquisition of land or otherwise as the last-mentioned Board may impose—

    (a) appropriate for the purpose of allotments any land held by the council for other purposes of the council; or

    (b)appropriate for other purposes of the council land acquired by the council for allotments.

    (2) This Section shall apply in the county of London, to the council of the county, and to any metropolitan borough council. — [Sir A. Boscawen.]

    Brought up, and read the first time.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I beg to move
    "That the Clause be read a second time."
    In Committee, in dealing with the question of small holdings, we gave powers to a council to appropriate land which they had bought for small holdings to other purposes if they thought desirable or to appropriate other lands which they had bought for some other purpose to small holdings if they thought desirable. This proposed new Clause really enables them to do precisely the same thing in regard to land purchased for allotments.
    Mr. ACLAND: As far as this goes, it is an improvement. I am glad it is to be inserted in the Bill.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause accordingly read a second time, and added to the Bill.

    New CLAUSE.—(Agreements as to Compensation where Land is Let for Provision of Allotments.)
    Where land is let for the provision of allotments either to a council under the principal Act or to an association formed for the purpose of creating or promoting the creation of allotments the right of the council or association to claim compensation from the landlord on the determination of the tenancy shall be subject to the terms of the contract of tenancy notwithstanding the provision of any Act to the contrary.
    Provided that this Section shall not prejudice or affect any right on the part of a person holding under a tenancy granted by the council or

    1193
    association to claim compensation from the council or association on the determination of his tenancy. — [Sir E. Pollock.]
    Brought up, and read the first time.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir E. Pollock): I beg to move,
    "That the Clause be read a second time."
    This is intended to meet a somewhat important though perhaps rather technical difficulty which has occurred. It has been represented by a number of allotment authorities that one of the objections raised by landlords who have building land to letting the land for allotments is the possibility of having to meet claims which might be made upon them at the end of the tenancy under the Agricultural Holdings Act or the Cottage Gardens Compensation for Crops Act, 1887. In other words, where suitable land is available those persons who own the land are afraid of making disturbance in the occupation of it for fear that claims should fall upon them. The Acts I have mentioned cannot be contracted out of. They form an absolute liability upon the landlord to pay compensation. In order to remove that difficulty and to give the allotment authorities the best opportunity of securing this land, if the owners are willing for it to be used for the purpose, we propose to put this Clause in, which is a permissive Clause, to enable the question of compensation to be dealt with. Under it, the cost can be easily recouped by a very small additional sum which will have to be paid by the allotment-holder. It will be a very small sum indeed, but it is a way of financing the scheme and at the same time it would be possible to remove the reluctance of the owners of building land to let allotment authorities have it.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause accordingly read a second time, and added to the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE—(Consent of Board to Period of Borrowing by County Councils.,)
    A determination by a county council as to the period within which any money borrowed for the purpose of the exercise of their powers under this Act shall be repaid shall, if the money is borrowed after the passing of this Act and before the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, be subject to the approval of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. — [Sir A. Boscuwen.]
    Brought up, and read the first time.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I beg to move,
    "That the Clause be read a second time."
    1194
    The object of the Clause is very simple. During the provisional period of seven years the whole deficit would be found by the taxpayer. It would, therefore, obviously be to the interest of the council to let the taxpayer pay as much as possible and therefore to borrow for a very short time. In the interest of the protection of the taxpayer, we take power here to dissent from the term "during which the loan is borrowed."
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause accordingly read a second time, and added to the Bill.
    The following new Clauses stood on the Paper in the name of Sir A. Boscawen:
    "In any case of acquisition of land by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under this Act. Sub-section (5) of Section one of the Small Holding Colonies Act, 1916 (which relates to compensation to labourers) shall apply with the substitution of references to this Act for references to that Act."
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I do not propose to move this at the present stage, because it is possible; that it might put some charge upon the public purse. I will, therefore, ask, on the conclusion of the Report stage, to recommit the Bill in respect of this, Clause.

    NEW CLAUSE.— (Co-operative Societies.)
    " It shall be the duty of a county council, in exercising the powers of Section sixteen of this Act, and of a borough, urban district, or parish council, in exercising the powers of Section nineteen, Sub-section (1), of this Act to give effect to the principles laid down in Section forty-nine of the principal Act, and for that purpose to carry out the provisions of the said Sections through any co-operative society of small holders or allotment holders which may be established in their area, and be approved by the Board of Agriculture for such purpose."—[Mr. Cautley]
    Brought up, and read the first time.
    Mr. CAUTLEY: I beg to move
    "That the Clause be read a second time."
    Mr. ROYCE: I beg to second the Motion.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I cannot accept this Clause, as I do not think it is necessary, but with regard to the question raised by it, I think I shall be able to satisfy my hon. Friends. Their object is that in the matter of making advances of capital to smallholders for the purpose of stocking their holdings or providing seed and fertilisers for allotment-holders, the council shall not act—it is laid down in the Bill that the council shall do it—if there is available a co-operative society which is

    1195
    able to do it. The Board of Agriculture is most anxious to promote the Agricultural Organisation Society, and assist it in every way. We attach the greatest value to co-operation. All we intend is that where there is not a co-operative society which is in a position to do it, the county councils shall do it. In the ease of small holders, we propose to make very considerable advances. The suggestion is, £l for £l. If a man is prepared to lay out £100, we will advance another £100 for the purpose of stocking his small holding. But in most cases that will have to be done by the banks. What we propose in the Bill is that the smallholder should open an account with the local branch of the bank and should be able to have an overdraft which should be guaranteed by the county council. He will then only pay interest on the actual amount of the over draft. Similarly, in the case of allotment-holders, we propose that the county councils shall borrow, and assist the allotment-holder in providing seeds and so forth. We think in most cases that will have to be done, but we agree that where it can be done by means of co-operative societies that is desirable. I propose, therefore, when we come to Clause 16, to move an Amendment to this effect:
    "The powers conferred by this Section shall be exercisable by the council or the Board only where, in the opinion of the council or the Board, as the case may be, the facilities for obtaining advances from a society on a co-operative basis are inadequate."
    And similarly when we come to Clause 19, which deals with allotment-holders, I propose to move an Amendment on practically the same lines, to this effect:
    "The powers conferred by the preceding Subsection shall be exercisable by a council only where in the opinion of the council the facilities for the purchase or hire of the articles therein referred to from a society on a co-operative basis are inadequate."
    If the House has followed me, my hon. Friends will see that we are quite prepared in the proper Clause—on Clause 16 as regards small holdings and on Clause 19 as regards allotments—to meet their views; but we must take general powers to enable the councils to make advances. In the matter of small holdings it is the usual case, because the number of credit co-operative societies is not large, at all events, at the present moment. We want to enable the council to make these advances, otherwise the men will not get the advances when they want them. I will
    1196
    move these Amendments later on in a form which will indicate to the councils, and we will also circularise the councils, that it is not intended that they should exercise these powers in cases where the co-operative societies can do it.
    Captain FITZROY: I am sorry that the hon. Member does not see his way to accept this Amendment, because it is important in these days that we should encourage co-operation to the utmost of our powers. It seems to me that by his refusal to accept this Amendment he puts the small co-operative societies for allotment-holders and smallholders on a footing not as good as would be the case if the smallholders or allotment-holders were weekly tenants under a local authority. In these small rural districts some of the co-operative societies are very small. A small number of people have formed them selves into a society for providing allotments or small holdings, and they can only deal with very small consignments of goods, and cannot take advantage of the smaller prices which would be given to the large co-operative societies or the local authorities. The only means by which they can get the full advantage of trading on an equality with the large co-operative societies is by the county councils coming in and giving them all the advantages that they give to tenants of their own. The hon. Member is doing a wrong to these small co-operative societies in not accepting the Amendment.
    Question put, and negatived.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of Settled Land Acts, 1882 to 1890.)
    The powers conferred upon a tenant for life by the Settled Land Acts, 1882 to 1890, shall include the following further power:
    A power at any time, or times, to make a grant or grants of any part or parts of the settled land in fee simple or absolutely, or a lease or leases for any term of years without any consideration, or at a nominal price annuity or rent, or at less than the best price annuity or rent that can reasonably be obtained for the purpose of the Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, 1908 to 1919, and any such grant as aforesaid shall be deemed to be a sale within the meaning of the said Settled Land Acts. Provided that except under an order of the Court no more than two acres altogether in any one period shall be granted or leased under this power for the purpose of the said Small Holdings and Allotment Acts or under the similar power conferred by the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1919, for the purpose of the erection of dwellings for the working classes or the provision of gardens to be held in connection therewith or for all of

    1197
    such purposes together without payment of the full-price annuity or rent for any land granted or leased in excess of such quantity.—[Major Lane-Fox.]
    Brought up, and read the first time
    Major LANE-FOX: I beg to move
    "That the Clause be read a second time."
    The object of the Clause is not particularly controversial. The Settled Land Act only allows an owner of land if he wishes to permit any of his land to be employed for the purpose of small holdings gardens, or other purposes.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: We are prepared to accept this Clause, but I think there is a mistake in it. The word "period" is not the right word; it should be "parish." If my hon. Friend will move it in that correct form, then it can be accepted, subject to this, that it provides for not more than two acres; and it may be necessary in another place to make the provision two acres in an urban area and possibly to enlarge the acreage in a rural area. That has been done in a previous Act, and I think, on consideration, it may be necessary to amend it in that form.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause accordingly read a second time.
    Major LANE-FOX: I am much obliged to the Government for accepting the Clause. As regards the enlargement of the acreage allowed, I should be very glad if that is possible. It was due to the modesty of our proposal that we limited it to the two acres. I beg to move to leave out the word "period" ["any one period"], and to insert instead thereof the word "parish,"
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Notice to Councils.)
    The landlord of a holding to which the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908, applies and which exceeds one hundred acres in extent shall, on giving or receiving notice to determine the tenancy of the holding forthwith, give notice thereof to the council of the county or county borough in which the holding or the greater part thereof is situate, and any landlord who fails to give a notice required by this Section to be given by him shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding forty shillings.—[Major Barnes.]
    Brought up, and read the first time.
    Major BARNES: I beg to move
    "That the Clause be read a second time."
    This is a simple provision for enabling the county and county borough councils
    1198
    to become aware of any land that may be in the market suitable for this Act. It needs hardly any words to commend it. It would be a matter of very great facility to county councils and county borough councils who have to apply this Act, and it would inflict no hardship upon anyone.
    Mr. ANEURIN WILLIAMS: I beg to second the Motion.
    Mr. T. THOMPSON: This Clause would meet a difficulty which the local authorities experience when they wish to acquire laud under the existing arrangements. If they had knowledge that certain laud is becoming vacant and that they might acquire the land without disturbing existing tenancies and without having to face the cost of compensation their work would be considerably facilitated.
    Major WOOD: I have considerable sympathy with the intention in the mind of the lion. Member who moved the Clause, namely, that so far as possible there should be present to the mind of the county and borough councils information as to what land is available. My first point of difficulty is that the lion. Member wants that information for the county councils in order that tile county councils may be able to have the first right of choice of that land before it is relet. The first point on which I should like some explanation is that this Clause from their own point of view would not go nearly far enough. I should be inclined to say that they ought to have added further words to ensure that no landowner should relet land without the consent of the county councils, if they wish to achieve the object which I under stand they have in view. There may be arguments for that, but that is a proposal that could only be justified upon grounds of extreme necessity, and to which I certainly should be very strongly opposed. Their Clause will not achieve the object they have in view, and is, therefore, unnecessary, and I think it might even be come mischievous. I think it to be unnecessary for this reason, that a great deal of land is every day passing through the market and changing hands. It is not an exaggeration to say that there is a silent revolution going on every day in the matter of land up and down the country, and it is open to any county council that wants land to enter the market and buy it. That is indisputable. The further point I wish to put to the House, and to the Government, is this: Are we not, if he accept this Clause—I do not wish to prejudge it,

    1199
    because I have not tad full opportunity of considering it—running considerable danger of defeating the very object that we wish to secure? The object which we all have in view is to make land settlement as prosperous, easy, and rapid as may be. It was repeated ad nauseam on the Second Reading and the Committee stage that land settlement to be successful must be the right sort of land. What is going to be the result of passing this Clause? You will immediately create a presumption in the minds of all who interpret this Act that inasmuch as county councils would be supposed to have some prior right to claim all the land that is changing hands, be fore it was relet—although that is not in the Clause—that inasmuch as they have that prior right it would be unreasonable for them to exercise compulsion in regard to acquiring land that was not changing hands. Anyone concerned with land knows that what the county councils want, nine times out of ten, is a particular piece of land near a village, and you would be putting an obstacle in the way of their getting that land if you passed this Clause, because it would be said that it is un reasonable to turn out somebody when you have not exercised your right to reoccupy the vacant land of which you have had notice. Therefore, I hope the Government will not accept this Clause. So far as my experience goes—and it may be, at least, as wide as that of the hon. Member who moved this Clause—there is no difficulty in substance at the present time in a county council getting information from landowners and others concerned, when ever and wherever they want it. It should be very seriously considered by the House that they should not multiply the opportunity for offences by making new crimes by Act of Parliament, unless they can prove that a real public necessity exists.
    Mr. PRETYMAN: I agree with every word said by my hon. and gallant Friend. As a practical matter, I do not think this Clause would work, and, if it did work, I think it would work to create even more insecurity than exists now. The one evil of all this good legislation is that it creates, and must create, a certain amount of feeling of insecurity in the minds of existing tenants. If a tenant can feel that he can not pass on his farm to one of his own family there will be much unrest. What my hon. Friends have in mind is the case where a farm is really vacant; but the im-
    1200
    mense proportion of notices given are given by arrangement between the existing tenant and the landlord, and the farm simply passes to another member of the same family. If a man feels that his farm can no longer pass down to his son or to any other member of his family without the county council being informed, and with the presumption that the county council would have a prior right to the farm rather than a member of the man's own family, you are wrong both ways. You are creating insecurity on the part of the tenant and you are creating a presumption as to the limitation of the powers of the county council. The county council have now the right, whether the land is occupied or not, to take it if it is required for a public purpose. There seems to be no reason in limiting that, and there is still less reason for limiting it in the way proposed. The suggested penalty is ridiculous. This Amendment deals only with holdings exceeding 100 acres. Imagine when a tenant farmer with 500 acres of land wants to pass it on to his son the landlord being fined 40s. if he does not give notice to the county council. The authors of this Clause show no practical knowledge of the subject, and I sincerely hope that the Government will not accept the Clause.
    Mr. ACLAND: I am afraid that I rather take the other view. I think it is a very open question and a rather difficult one, but I do think that at the present time the more the county council know as to the possibility of getting hold of land for settling these ex-Service men on the better. Naturally, everybody does his best. I know several people who are trying to get their tenants to give up fields so as to make way for one or two little holdings for these settlers; and, naturally, when a farmer gives up his farm, it facilitates this work to let the county council know, so that they may see whether they would like to take the farm for this purpose. This is not going any further than a public-spirited and good landowner would do in the general public interests, in letting the council know whenever he has got land available which they might like to have a look at. And I do not think that there is any great hardship in asking all landlords to do what a good watchful landowner would naturally do in the general interests of getting as many as possible of these men settled satisfactorily on the land. I quite agree that where it is a natural thing

    1201
    that the son should succeed the father in the tenancy of the farm, it would go a little against the grain to run the risk of the county council stepping in and saying that they want to prevent that. But after all, county councils act reasonably in these things, and they have the powers to take land apart from any arrangements an owner may want to make with a tenant. But there are other cases. Sometimes there is the case of one brother wanting to succeed another, or the case of a nephew wanting a farm, but on the whole it seems to me to be in the general interests of the State now that county councils should be informed as widely as possible of any land which may be made available without actually taking it away from the present occupier.
    The county councils have got a very difficult duty. In spite of all the land which there is in the market, they will not be able to acquire all the land they want in all districts simply by taking advantage of the land that comes automatically into the market. In most cases they must definitely exercise the power to provide the land for these men, who have done such signal service to the country. And it is very much better that instead of doing that they should take land which other wise would be changing its tenancy rather than turn the sitting tenant out of land which is actually in cultivation. This clause would give them full information of any pending change of tenancy, and I do not think it unreasonable that they should be informed of changes of tenancy so that they may have the power of saying, "This is a bit of land which we would very much like for our purposes, and having looked into all the circumstances of the case we do not think that the hardship to persons would otherwise let it is so great that we ought to desist from obtaining it for public purposes."
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Like my right hon. Friend opposite, I also had a very open mind with regard to this Amendment. In fact when it was put down first I was favourably inclined towards it for this reason. The greatest objection that can be urged to this Bill is that it may involve, in fact I am afraid that it must involve, disturbing the sitting tenant in some cases, and it occurred to me that if every opportunity was given to the county council to act when they knew there was to be a change of tenancy it would reduce to a minimum the danger of disturbing the
    1202
    existing tenant. But I do not think that this Amendment goes very far. All it does is to make it obligatory for the land-owner to inform the county council, and to impose a somewhat ridiculous fine if he does not, and I cannot say that I contemplate altogether with pleasure the idea of landowners being haled before magistrates and fined 40s. because they omitted to inform the county council that Johnson, senior, was going to give up the land and Johnson, junior, was going to take it. That is very undesirable. If the House generally were in favour of the Amendment I would accept it. But that does not appear to be the case, and there are good grounds why I should not accept it. When there is going to be a change of tenancy in a village in the country it is pretty well known, and the county council would get to know of it. In view of the fact that it would effect the very minimum amount of good and create a somewhat ridiculous new crime, I think that, on the whole, that it is wiser not to accept the Amendment.
    Major BARNES: I had rather hoped that the Government would have taken the view that this Amendment, which seems such a harmless provision and would be of great advantage to the county council, might be passed without objection. I attach coniderable weight to what the hon. Members opposite say on the subject of land. I am not at all in sensible to the arguments which they put forward with regard to the continuity of tenure. If I were lucky enough to possess a farm and had a boy to whom I could pass it on I should feel very sore indeed if the county council came along and prevented me from doing so. But I do not think that that is likely to happen. In most parts of the country I think that the county councils are fully alive to that sentiment and tradition. It may be that in my part of the world there are some county councils who would be rather ruthless, but I do not think that that would be likely to happen. What the Clause really does is to help the county council to make up a register. It does put them at once in possession of information that might be useful, and that I am quite sure they will not use in any arbitrary way.
    As for the dreadful pictures that have been painted of landlords being haled before the local bench and fined 40s., I do not know whether that would not add

    1203
    a little to the gaiety of rural life, and that on that ground alone the hon. Gentleman as a sportsman might accept the Clause. After all, landowners themselves do inflict a good many fines of 40s. for offences which are not very much more serious than the one which is specified here, and it might give a little savour of gaiety to rural life if occasionally one saw one of them in the dock for an offence of this sort. I would be prepared to make the penalty a great deal heavier if that would ensure the acceptance of my Amendment. I thought that the hon. Gentleman was not very decided in his opposition, and would have accepted a lead from the House. And while there is no general feeling of unanimity on this subject, I think that that is because this side of the House happens to be rather less occupied than that side, and if the occasion had been a little different the view of the House would have been different. But I do not propose to take this Amendment to a Division if the Government persist in their opposition, and I will therefore withdraw it.
    Motion and Clause, by leave, with drawn.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(unused land for Allotment)
    The council of any borough, urban district or parish may hire compulsorily any unused land and let it for allotments, on the terms that two thirds of the rent paid by the tenants of such allotments shall be paid to the owner of the land as rent and one-third shall be accumulated as a fund, out of which compensation shall be paid to the tenants in the event pf the owner claiming to resume possession of the land for necessary building operations. The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may make regulations for carrying out the provisions of this Section and for determining under what circumstances the owner may so claim to resume possession.—[Mr. A. Williams.]
    Brought up, and read the first time.
    Mr. A. WILLIAMS: I beg to move.
    "That the Clause be read a second time."
    The object of this new Clause is to render available land, in the neighbourhood of towns chiefly, which is intended for building and which cannot very well be used for allotments on that account. Of course, it cannot very well be bought, because having a building value it is very dear, and the hiring of it is difficult, because it may so soon be required for building purposes All who have been on allotment committees of county councils and so on have come up against that difficulty. This par-
    1204
    ticular case has been brought to my notice by the report of an organisation of allotment-holders in the North of England re presenting over 25,000 allotment-holders. They say that the landlords of such building lands are not willing to let it because of the reasons that I have given, but the difficulty would be removed by some such Clause as this. Under the Clause, the local authority would have power to hire such land compulsorily if necessary, and to let it to allotment-holders. Then, to meet the difficulty that the landlord might require to have it back for building purposes at, any time, it is provided that one third of the rent should be accumulated as a kind of insurance fund, and that when the landlord shows that it is necessary for him to have the land back for building purposes, compensation to the tenant should be paid out of the insurance fund.
    It will no doubt be necessary to have Regulations for carrying it out in its details, for providing the terms on which the land may be entered upon as unused. The word "unused" might possibly require some definition. And again, providing as to the circumstances in which the landlord might come and say that it was necessary for him to have this land for building purposes and providing for the scale of compensation to the tenant. In such cases I propose in this Clause that the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may make Regulations for carrying out the provisions in the matter I have mentioned, particularly for determining in what circumstances the owner may claim to resume possession. I think that this Clause would be quite fair to everybody concerned. The land at present is unused, and therefore is not bringing in anything or is bringing in nothing appreciable to the owner. Under this Clause he would be getting a certain amount for it. At the same time this land, which in all probability is very conveniently situated in some densely packed neighbourhood, would be made available, in some cases for one, two, three, or even many years, for allotment purposes. I hope sincerely that the Government will accept the Clause. It may be that there is something in my amateur drafting that does not commend itself to the Government. If so, I shall be perfectly willing to accept any modification that would make it more artistic and skilful in wording, as long as the principle were accepted for dealing with what is a very serious difficulty.
    Captain O'GRADY: I beg to second the Motion.
    5.0 P.M.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I do not quite under-stand how this new Clause would operate. In the first place, the hon. Member says it applies to unused land, but. that the owner may get some thing for it even if he gets something which is only very small. That presumes that someone must be paying him something for the use of that land. ''Unused" is a term which is not clear, and might lead to a great deal of litigation. It appears that the land may be acquired compulsorily, and that a certain rent may be paid. For the sake of argument, say that the rent is £30 a year. As I read the Clause, only £20 is to be paid to the landlord, although the people using the land are paying £30. The land lord is not only to have his land taken compulsorily, but he is to receive only two-thirds of the rent, and the remaining one-third is to provide a fund for the tenants. We are, I think, progressing very far in the direction of a gentleman called Trotsky, when Clauses of this sort are proposed seriously. The next thing will be not only that the landlords are to have the land taken from them, but that the tenants will in future pay only one-third of the rent, and that the other two-thirds are to be set aside to provide a fund against losses which might occur because of bad weather, bad cultivation, or some other cause I do think that that is going a little too far. The only thing I can see in the Clause is that it will afford considerable litigation as to what is used and what is unused land. Supposing the hon. Member had land of this sort, and he was afraid that the county council was coming along. He has only to turn a horse or donkey or goat on to it and it immediately becomes used. Then there would be a discussion as to whether that was in any kind of way an evasion of the Act, and the lawyers would benefit. I hope the hon. and learned Solicitor-General will see the futility of this Clause, and that the Government will not accept it.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: I am sorry that I am unable to accept this Clause. I do not take any exception to the form of drafting, because I quite realise that my hon. Friend would be ready to accept amended language that would meet his purpose. I think the Clause is really quite unnecessary. At the present moment there
    1206
    is abundant power of acquiring land compulsorily under Section 39 of the original Act of 1908. It is quite true that that power might not have been exercised to the full, but we are very much hoping that under Clause 1 of this present Bill the powers in the Act of 1908 will be put into force. If there is some land which might wisely be adapted for the purpose of allotments there are powers under which it can be taken. I am not going into a strict or meticulous examination of the Clause, because its terms could be improved no doubt, but I think there is a difficulty in defining what is meant by unused land. The Clause does not specify that the land is to be within a particular urban area or any other area, and I think a great many views might be expressed as to what is unused land. Sometimes people have land which may be put to a "better purpose from the point of view of a particular critic, who may hold that the land is unused. On the other hand the owner may have quite good reasons for letting it lie idle for the time being. The latter part of the Clause, which provides for the payment of rent, only two-thirds of which is paid to the owner and one-third is to provide a sort of insurance fund, rather points to the case of derelict land, the owner of which no body knows, but in regard to which some owner might ultimately turn up, with the result that there would be danger of the tenants being put out of possession. Against that accident it is proposed to provide a sort of insurance. The real answer to the Clause is Section 39 of the Act of 1908, and when my hon. Friend has looked at that I think he will feel that the point he desires to raise is adequately met.
    Mr. ACLAND: In view of the explanation I think my hon. Friend would be well advised to withdraw his Amendment. It is much more to the point to get local authorities to make adequate use of the powers they possess. A good many societies already make arrangements, which could be improved without statutory pro vision, for accumulating a compensation fund to be used in regard to unexhausted improvements and so on at the end of a tenancy. With regard to the persona whom the hon. Member represents in moving this Amendment, he would be giving them good advice if he advised them to appeal to the National Union or the Agricultural Organisation Society with a view to getting such help as can be provided by

    1207
    either of those societies in conjunction with local authorities for acquiring the land they want under existing powers.
    Mr. A. WILLIAMS: There are one or two points to which I would like to refer. I am particularly hurt at its being suggested that I am a "coming Trotsky." I should like to point out to the right hon. Baronet that if Trotsky never did anything worse than to give landlords, two-thirds of the rent for land which had been producing absolutely nothing, I think he would be a benefactor to the landlords. With regard to the remarks of my hon. Friend (Mr. Acland), it is true that any allotment or smallholders' association can accumulate a kind of insurance fund, but the object of this Clause is to enable a local authority to accumulate such a fund. If you had land in or about a great town, a number of pieces of building land now doing absolutely nothing, my Clause would give the local authority power to take this land, to pay the landlords a rent for what now produces no income, and to accumulate the balance as an insurance fund, so that if one particular piece of land out of twenty or fifty were taken for building purposes there would be a fund to pay the tenants of that particular piece compensation for what they were losing. I am quite aware that there are powers for the compulsory hiring of land, but I am not aware that there is any power to the local authority to accumulate a fund such as I have spoken of. With regard to unused land, I let slip a word which led the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Ban-bury) to think that I was not really meaning unused land. I am really meaning unused land, and I do not think there will be any difficulty about clearly defining what one means by unused land. I am very sorry that the Government cannot accept this Amendment. It would be only a waste of time to go to a Division upon it, but at the same time I hope that the Government will take into consideration this very urgent question of unused building land which might be made useful for the inhabitants of densely populated neighbourhods.
    Major LANE-FOX: I want the hon. Member to realise that when we on this side heard him described as a Trotsky, that description was not accepted by us as in any way true of an hon. Member whom we know for his pacific and benevolent tendencies. I would be the very last
    1208
    to associate myself with any such description. I most cordially agree with the principle of the Amendment, and I disagree with the remarks made from this side on it. Of course, if the Government say the Clause is not necessary, and that that is a reason for refilling it, I have nothing more to say. I think the hon. Member will agree that the Clause is not a very workable one. I could not support it in its present wording, but I do agree with him thoroughly that there arc great tracts of land on the outskirts of towns which are lying idle, year after year, and are badly wanted. It may be true, as the Solicitor-General has said, that there are full powers now, but the fact remains that through years such land was not made use of. I hope the Government will see that the use of the land under that Act continues, without in any sense taking away from the advantage which the land lord has the right to have. Until such land can be used for building purposes it should be used for the purposes of cultivation. I want the hon. Member to realise that the principle of his proposal has considerable support in all quarters of the House.
    Major WOOD: I wish to ask the Solicitor-General whether the Act which is referred to, and which, he says, covers the point, is one under which fairly rapid action may be taken. It is quite obvious that land that is idle to-day may be wanted for building in six months, nine months, or a year. If you have to waste a great deal of time in getting possession of it for allotment-holders, obviously it is no good. What is needed is power to get land on terms that will enable people who work it to get out of it without loss. Are the existing powers such as to make that speedy evacuation impossible. If they are so, then I think it would be necessary to introduce some form of words.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: The present law is that a council may acquire land compulsorily irrespective of the capital value which may belong to the land. It is quite true that that has not been availed of very much, and the principal reason for that is that it has taken some time to put into operation. But when you read that-existing provision together with the very drastic and expeditious powers conferred by Clauses 1 and 2 of this Bill, those will enable the council or local authority to acquire land in the most rapid way. There-

    1209
    fore I think the answer to the question is, Yes, that under this Bill the powers are speeded up, and I think in that way the point made by my hon. Friend opposite will be met.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: In the event of the landlord obtaining this land is there any provision in the existing law for compensation to be paid to the occupiers?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Yes.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: My impression was that in the case of building land there was no compensation paid to the allotment holder.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Certainly, there is for anything in or on the land.
    Major PRESCOTT: What notice has to be given to the allotment holder for evacuation in the event of land being required for building purposes. I rather think it is twelve months.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I am afraid I could not answer that off-hand. There is I know sufficient, but I am not quite sure what it is.
    Mr. CAUTLEY: I do not think that the point in the Amendment is fully met, and I do not quite agree with the Solicitor-General that there are powers to take this land expeditiously and attain the object. I remember perfectly well last year that in cases of the kind the Defence of the Realm Act had to be resorted to, and a special regulation passed to enable this vacant building land to be taken and let to allotment holders. The Parliamentary Secretary refers us to Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill, and that does hasten the procedure, but I do not think it quite meets the difficulty. The difficulty is that it does not provide for giving up this land at a moment's notice and securing compensation to the tenants. The existing owners of the land have no objection to neighbouring occupiers occupying the, land if it were not for the difficulty of the retaking possession of the land and the payment of compensation. I do not see how the local authority is to have this power unless in addition to the power of taking the land they have the power to determine the allotment holders holding at the end of the season on short notice, and also providing compensation for those holders. If that were done and some fund provided for compensation to the allotment holder it would be of service.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: I rise to call attention to the other Sections, which must be remembered and borne in mind in sequence to Section 39 to which I referred previously. The hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) has, I think, overlooked what those existing powers are, and those existing powers are in favour of the tenant and rather against the landlord. Under Section 46, where land is to be acquired by a, council compulsorily for small holdings or allotments, they are to continue, unless it is "shown to the satisfaction of the Board"—and note those words—that the land is required for building or industrial purposes, and only in that ca-so can the landlord resume possession. The tenants have, side by side with that, their right of compensation.
    Mr. CAUTLEY: But it is not expeditious.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: It is suggested that the tenants of the land would be in some jeopardy, but so far from being in jeopardy they are secured, because the owner of the land cannot rapidly resume possession, and has actually got to give twelve months' notice, unless ho satisfies the authority that the land is bonâ fide required for building or industrial purposes. Therefore, during the whole of that period you have got the tenants safely and securely upon the land, and it cannot be taken from them at the mere whim or caprice of the landowner. When that notice expires, and the other preliminaries have been carried out by the landlord to satisfy the council, then will compensation be payable. The Compensation Clauses of other Acts would apply, and if there is compensation to be paid it will be paid. It may be that these powers have not hitherto been put in force, but the power is in the hands of the local authorities to take the land, and they have power to hold it in favour of the tenants, unless and until it is bonâ fide required ''to their satisfaction" for other purposes. Notice has to be given to the tenants, so as to afford them occupation which will make it worth their while to continue. I think the scheme is complete, and that, therefore, it is unnecessary to accept this Amendment.
    Major LLOYD-GREAME: I do not think the Solicitor-General has really appreciated the object, which is not to get land which can be held on a long tenure, but to get quickly into this land and quickly out again. We do not want this

    1211
    twelve months' system for this particular kind of land. If you take the whole complete scheme of the Act, the parish council or borough council would very likely say, "It is not worth while taking possession of this land, and it would be hard on the landlord if it were not given quickly." There is a large amount of derelict land, and you do not know when it may be required for building or development. It may be a year or two years, or it may be within six months. What you want is, in a case like that, to be able to move quickly and at once enter into possession and say to the tenant, "You are going to have an allotment on this land, but if it is required for building you have got to go out much quicker than you do under the complete scheme of the Act." The proposal of the hon. Member to set aside one-third of the rent for compensation exactly meets the case. It is fair to the landlord, who gets nothing at the present time. I notice that the right hon. Baronet, with unduly tender care for the landlord, is not in favour, and I remember him on one occasion pleading hard for the right of the landlord to, retain empty houses and not have them converted into dwellings for the working classes.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I never said anything about that.
    Major LLOYD-GREAME: I have a distinct recollection of the right hon. Gentleman boasting that the houses on each side of him were completely derelict and that no one was living in them. He objected to certain proposals which we put forward with the object of making such houses available for the working classes. I hope that the Minister will take the houses on both sides of the right hon. Gentleman and fill them. There is nothing in the least unfair to the landlord in this proposal, and I should certainly hope that they are not going to indulge in subterfuges of the kind referred to by the right hon. Baronet. The landlord is not getting a penny now for the land, and this is going to give him two-thirds of the rent, and that is something in his pocket, while he can develop the land at a suitable time, and in that event compensation is to be paid to the occupier. Some Amendments later on are designed for the purpose of trying to secure alternative allotments when, people are turned out. The right hon. Baronet is, perhaps, not so well acquainted with cer-
    1212
    tain industrial areas as some of us. In many instances there are acres of this derelict land in the neighbourhood of large towns, and that land in the last four years has proved very valuable in providing additions to our food supply. By these proposals you get the advantage that if you turn out the allotee if there is any available land in the neighbourhood you can place him on another allotment. I do not want to press this unduly at the present time, but I have tried to explain this was really the point which was at the back of my mind, and as I have said, I am not quite sure that the Solicitor-General fully appreciates it. I hope he will see his way to consider the Amendment before the Bill comes up in another place. I do not think the drafting it satisfactory, but the Solicitor-General knows what is in our minds, and I think the House will agree that there is a good deal more in the. Amendment than was at first thought. I am sure the House would be pleased if the Government would give an undertaking to consider the matter and in another place put in a proper Amendment to meet the-point.
    Lieut-Commander WILLIAMS: I trust that the Government will endeavour if they possibly can to meet this particular new Clause, which has a great many advantages. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London referred to the landlords' position, but I think in this instance they have got a pretty good thing. First of all, it does open up additional possibilities of rapid acquirement of land) for allotments. But still more important, to my understanding, at the present time is the ease with which, if you had some system of compensation such as is laid down in this Clause, you might go back within twenty-hours to building purposes. It might be acquired at a day's notice, and it is absolutely essential now, as those of us who have any connection with the out-skirts of great towns know, that when building plans are complete you must get forward with them as quickly as possible, and for that reason alone I should like to ask the Government to go into the question more fully before they entirely throw out this new Clause.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Perhaps I may be allowed to say another word or two by leave of the House. The point which is put is, I think, rather the opposite one from what generally comes from supporters of allotments. As a rule they ask.

    1213
    for security of tenure, but now they are asking for the opposite; they are asking that land which is nearly ripe for building may be occupied, but temporarily. As regards entering on that land, the powers which already exist, read in conjunction with the very drastic powers in Clauses and 2 of this Bill, would give prompt entry for the purposes of allotments, but what is now wanted is that that land may be taken and passed back to the landowner quickly if wanted for building. That is an important point. We cannot accept this Amendment as it stands, but I will give an undertaking that that matter shall be reconsidered when the Bill is considered in another House.
    Mr. A. WILLIAMS: I beg leave to withdraw the Clause.
    Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    CLAUSE 1.— (Temporary Suspension of Requirements as to Confirmation of Orders for the Acquisition of Land, 8 Edw. 7. c. 36.)
    (1) Any order for the compulsory acquisition of land which is duly made after the date of the passing of this Act and before the expiration of two years from that date by a council under the Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908 (hereinafter referred to as the principal Act), need not, except as otherwise expressly provided by this Act, be submitted to or confirmed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, but shall have effect as if it had been so confirmed.
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words
    "and before the expiration of two years from that date."
    Clause 1 suspends the requirements as to confirmation of orders for the acquisition of land. No doubt it will considerably help the allotment-holders of the country to obtain land for the purposes of allotments but unfortunately the suspension of those requirements, which are most cumbersome and which delay the acquisition of land considerably, is under this Clause limited to two years from the date of the passing of the Act. That is a most inconvenient date from the point of view of the allotment-holders of the country, for this reason, that a very large number of them will be holding allotments for about that period, and just when the time arrives for other land, as we hope, to be obtained for them then the benefit of this Clause is lost. Therefore, I hope my hon. Friend will either accept my Amendment or extend the period of two years to some further period which will allow this suspension to remain in operation for at any
    1214
    rate a sufficient time to enable such a large number of allotment-holders to have the benefit of the Clause.
    Brigadier-General COLVIN: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I regret that I cannot accept this Amendment, and I think the House will see there are very good? reasons against it. Clause 1 says that for a period of two years the necessity of the confirmation of an order of compulsory purchase or hiring shall be suspended. It means that a council may make a compulsory order to acquire a bit of land, and without any confirmation by the Board of Agriculture, without a public inquiry where the pros and cons may be stated, without any of those necessary formalities, which really are a protection to owners of property and to the public generally, without any of that protection the thing shall be done. We have heard nothing about Trotsky, or I think I might be called a Trotsky in connection with this Clause, which is a very drastic and extreme Clause, but we think it is justifiable for what we may call the emergency period during which councils have to buy land in large quantities. We expect a very big land settlement which is to be tackled in the next two years. We want, therefore, during this emergency period to have the quickest possible powers of action, and, therefore, for the emergency period only, which we put at two years, we suspend these very necessary measures of protection.
    My hon Friend proposes to make these very extreme proposals permanent, and we really cannot agree to that. I do not think the House thinks that, as a general rule, property should be acquired without the necessity of a public inquiry, without the body which proposes to acquire being in a position to state what they have in view, and without persons interested in that property, whether they are owners, or whether they are tenants, or whatever rights they may have, stating their case. There are two proposals for accelerating the acquisition of land in this Bill. The first is contained in Clause 1—that is the suspension of the necessity for confirmation with the public inquiry which is involved; that is limited to two years, and we reckon that will probably save something like three months in each case. But Clause 2 is really far more important. That gives us the right of immediate entry, and that will save a great deal more than.

    1215
    three months. It may save as much as fifteen or sixteen months in the case of ordinary tenancies, and that Clause is permanent, and, therefore, from the point of view of getting land for allotments, you will always have in future the advantages of Clause 2, which enable a council, having purchased land, to enter immediately. We hope that after the two years the biggest amount of land necessary for small holdings and allotments will have been acquired, certainly for small holdings, because unless the thing is done quickly it is no good doing it at all. After that the power of acquiring compulsorily is not taken away. It remains, but it will be subject to the confirmation; that is all. We only suspend that during the emergency period, during which a great deal of land will be bought, and during which, therefore, the confirmation would cause a delay which would be disastrous. But after the emergency period is over it is only necessary really for councils to lay their plans sufficiently well in advance and to proceed with their orders and get confirmation. I could not possibly assent to making it part of the permanent law of the land that a public authority should for any purpose acquire land compulsorily without confirmation and a public inquiry.
    Mr. ACLAND: I understand the point of view of the Minister in charge of the Bill, but he has not quite closed the door to any extension of the period of two years. There is an Amendment later, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman will say whether he cannot meet us to some extent by extending the period of two years to five years, or, say, four years, because a good many of us have in mind that really this emergency period will not be over within two years from the passing of the Act, which we hope may be during next month. That would go a very considerable way, I think, to meeting the case of my hon. Friend, and I do not think it will be accompanied by any risk of injustice to landowners. There is every necessity to convince the public that there will be no delays whatever in enabling ex-Service men to get settled on the land. It is a very difficult process, and county councils as a whole are working at it very hard indeed, but I fancy they will find their work will not be over in two years' time, and therefore I hope the Minister in charge of the Bill will be able to meet
    1216
    us to some extent, although I accept his argument that he does not want to embody in permanent legislation the suspension of the necessity of holding public inquiries.
    Sir K. WOOD: Lord Ernle the other day described the procedure which the Parliamentary Secretary thinks so necessary in future as complicated and cumbersome, and I venture to ask who to-day can say what the emergency period will be? My hon. Friend, it is true, has fixed it in this Bill at two years, but I think he might very well consider the question of the extension of that tension. There is the special case of these allotment-holders, whose tenure will in very many cases cease in two years' time, and they will not be able to obtain the advantage of this acceleration by taking land for that particular purpose. I think if he can see his way, at t any rate, to extend the period a little, he will be helping the allotment-holders of the country, as I know he desires to do.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I cannot accept this Amendment, which makes it permanent, but if anybody moves something such as three years I will be prepared to extend it to that period.
    Sir K. WOOD: Thank you. I will ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment made: Leave out the word "two" ["expiration of two years."], and insert instead thereof the word "three."— [Sir K. Wood.]

    CLAUSE 2.— (Power of Entry on Land Compulsorily Acquired.)
    (1) Where an order for the compulsory purchase of land has been made, and where necessary confirmed, under the principal Act. Whether such order was made before or after the passing of this Act, the council entitled to purchase the land under the order may, at any time after a notice to treat has been served, and on giving not. less than fourteen days' notice to the owner and occupier of the land, enter on and take possession of the land without previous consent or compliance with Sections eighty-four to ninety of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845.but subject to the payment of the like compensation and interest thereon as would have been payable if the provisions of those Sections had been complied with.

    Provided that where a council have so entered on land, the council shall not be entitled to exercise the powers conferred by Sub-section (8) of Section thirty-nine of the principal Act.

    (2) Where a council has agreed to purchase and for the purposes of the principal Act, and the land is in the possession of a person having no greater interest therein than as a tenant for a year, or from year to year, then at any

    1217
    time after such agreement has been made the council may, after giving not less than fourteen days' notice to the person go in possession, enter on and take possession of the land without previous consent, but subject to the payment to the person so in possession of the like compensation, with such interest thereon as aforesaid, as if the council had been authorised to purchase the land compulsorily and such person had, in pursuance of such power, been required to quit possession before the expiration of his term or interest in the land, but without the necessity of compliance with Sections eighty-four to ninety of the Lands Clauses (Consolidation) Act, 1645.

    (3) This Section shall with such necessary adaptations as may be prescribed apply in the case of an order authorising the compulsory hiring of land, or of an agreement to hire land.

    Amendment made: In Sub-section. (1), leave out the words "the owner," and insert instead thereof the words
    "each owner, lessee."— [Sir A. Boscawen.]
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "land" ["possession of the land without"], to insert the words
    "or such part thereof as is specified in the notice."
    This Amendment is really an important one. Clause 2 gives to the county council or to the Board the very important power of being able to enter on to land which they have bought compulsorily after fourteen days' notice, and a great deal of feeling has been evinced that this may lead to great hardship. 1 pointed out in Committee that we did not really intend in most cases to enter upon the whole farm, that we did not intend to dispossess the tenant, and so forth, and I have other Amendments lower down which will safeguard that. But what we do want to do, where we require land for allotments or land for small holdings, is to enter quickly on to a small part of the property. For example, if we buy a farm in this month of July, and it has a tenancy which is terminated by yearly notice, we cannot begin our work until Michaelmas next year, and that will be fatal to our land settlement scheme. We want, therefore, the right to enter quickly, but we do not want always to enter on the whole farm. Therefore, I am moving this Amendment to give to the council the right to enter only on such part of the farm as may be specified in the notice.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In Sub-section (1). after the word "compensation" ["of the like compensation and interest "], insert the words.
    "'for the land of which possession is taken."— [Sir A. Boscawen.]
    Major LANE-FOX: I beg to move, in Sub-section (l), after the word ''with" [" had been complied with"]', to insert the words
    "Provided always that no order for compulsory purchase shall be confirmed or possession taken of any land where the occupier of such land has served in any branch of His Majesty's Forces and has now returned, or has expressed his intention of returning, to resume the cultivation of the land."
    This is intended to avoid the possibility of the land being taken away from the original tenant in favour of another serving soldier. It does seem to me to be fairer that when land is wanted, the land of those who are not soldiers should be taken in preference to that of a man serving his country. The point is a very simple one.
    Mr. CAUTLEY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I entirely sympathise with the object my hon. and gallant Friend has in view, and I cannot conceive it at all possible that any county council would wish to penalise, so to speak, a returning soldier. After all, what we are trying to do here is to settle soldiers on the land, and it would be most absurd and inconsistent to take away the land of a soldier who has served. I think my hon. and gallant Friend will see that I cannot accept this Amendment, at all events as it stands, for this reason. There are a good many large landowners who have served in the Army, and they may have land in hand.
    Major LANE-FOX: It only applies to the occupier.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: If land is in hand, then the owner is the occupier. What would be the result? I am not suggesting that my hon. Friends would do it—they are the last people to do it—but some other landowners, who had served and who had land in hand, might take advantage of this Clause to refuse to allow that land to be acquired for small holdings at all. I am sure that is not a result my hon. and gallant Friend would desire. I do not think there is anything to fear, because we lay down in this Bill that in this land settlement preference must be given to ex-soldiers, and I cannot see how a council can do that if they are going to take away the land of an ex-soldier. Therefore, I do not think there is anything to fear, and, although the principle is a very

    1219
    proper one, the insertion of this Amendment might lead to very undesirable results.
    Captain FITZROY: I really do not see why the owner-occupier may not be a very small occupier, who may fee put in a worse position than a tenant farmer, because the owner-occupier may have served as a soldier and be just as much entitled to retain his land as a tenant farmer who has served as a soldier. This Amendment makes it abundantly clear that where the owner-occupier has been a serving soldier he shall not have to make way for another soldier. If the wording of the Amendment is not as good as it might be, other words might be found.
    Mr. ACLAND: I should have hoped that this was a case which might be left to the good sense of the county council and others concerned. I know a case in a certain parish where a rather undesirable state of things prevails. It is a big parish, and there are three considerable farms all under the occupation of the same man. He went to the War, and he put bailiffs in to manage all the farms, but it would be very much better to everyone concerned if he would give up one of the farms and content himself with the two others.
    Major LANE-FOX: I am sorry the Government have not seen their way to accept the principle of the Amendment, Obviously there is nothing in it that can do any harm to the Bill. However, if the Government insist that it is neither necessary nor advisable, I will ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendments made:
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "to purchase land."
    Leave out the words
    "and the land is in the possession of a person having no greater interest therein than as"
    and insert instead thereof the words
    "to purchase land subject to the interest of the person in possession thereof, and that interest is not greater than that of."
    After the word "land" ["the land without previous consent"], insert the words
    "or of such part thereof as is specified in the notice."
    After the word "compensation" [" possession of the like compensation "], insert the words
    1220
    "for the land of which possession is taken."— [Sir A. Boscawen.]
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I beg to move, to insert, as a new Sub-section,
    "(3) Where a notice of entry under this Section relates to land on which there is a dwelling-house and the length of notice is less than three calendar months, the occupier of the dwelling-house may by notice served on the council within ten days after the service on him of the notice of entry appeal against such notice, and in any such case the appeal shall be determined by an arbitrator under and in accordance with the provisions of the Second Schedule of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908 (except that the arbitrator shall, in default of agreement, be appointed by the President of the Surveyors' Institution) and the council shall not be entitled to enter on the land under this Section except on such date and on such conditions as the arbitrator may award."
    This is a more important Amendment, and deals with the promise I gave in Committee as to this very drastic power of entry that regard should be had to a dwelling-house. It was pointed out that great injustice would result if after only fourteen days' notice a tenant farmer might be turned out, not merely of his land or part of his land, but also of his house. Therefore, we propose this Amendment, so that where the notice is less than three calendar months, he may submit the matter to an arbitrator, whose decision, of course, will be final. We think this will meet the very strong feeling as to hardship. I gave a distinct promise that I would try to meet this point, and 1 hope the House will consider it is fairly met by this Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Major BARNES: I beg to move, at the end, to insert the words
    "A council which has hired land compulsorily or by agreement shall have the option at any time during the tenancy of purchasing the holding from the landlord, and if the council so desires the purchase money shall be paid by means of an annuity.
    In determining the amount of compensation the value of the land shall be taken to be the value which the land would have had at the date of the notice to treat if it had remained in the condition in which it was at the commencement of the tenancy without regard to. any enhancement or depreciation in the value which may be attributable, directly or indirectly, to any buildings, works, or improvements erected, constructed, executed, or made in, on, over, or under the land, or any adjoining or neighbouring land, for the purposes connected with the tenancy wholly or partly at the expense of the council or with the consent of the council at the expense of any person not being a person interested in the land."
    This is an Amendment directed to removing what, I think, is the only real

    1221
    objection which exists to the Bill. The Bill necessitates the entry of the State into The market to buy very considerable quantities of land, but by the irony of fate, just at the time that the State is forced into the market, prices are very much against it, and that is nowhere more so than in the case of agricultural land. I think it will be generally admitted that there has been a very considerable increase in its value compared with its value prior to the War. In that connection I would like to bring before the notice of the House an expression of opinion by a gentleman who is probably in as good a position, if not in a better position than anybody in the country to express an opinion on that point. I refer to Sir Howard Frank, who wrote a letter a few days ago to the "Times" in relation to the effect on the market price of land by the entry of the county councils into the market. It is a letter of a most public-spirited character, and I would ask the indulgence of the House while I read some extracts. He said:
    "I have noticed at recent sales that county-councils are buying land at auction, with the inevitable result that the price in certain districts is forced up and high prices fire being given.
    The vendor, especially when he is tenant for life selling with the consent of trustees, or a mortgagee selling under his power of sale, must dispose of the property at the best price he can obtain, and when advising an owner an auctioneer has to consider likely competition and the price that might be secured at auction in consequence, and it is often found that a tenant, given when the owner is in the position to give him the opportunity to buy privately, will not give nearly as much as the farm is likely to zetch at auction.
    The result I am afraid is going to be that the Government through the county councils will be paying in many cases such high prices that it will be difficult for the ex-Service man to make a living, and some one will have to stand the loss, presumably the Government.
    I suppose I shall be told I am foolish to write this letter, as when acting in a professional capacity my duty is to do the best I can for the landlord, and I shall be asked why I wish to interfere with sales which are going so well. I decline, however, to believe that owners themselves prefer to sell land at unduly inflated prices to ex-Servicemen. I have discussed the matter with big landowners and they are only too anxious to do what is right to help ex-Service men, and to sell their land at a reasonable price, but there are cases where an owner is obliged to 'go to auction, especially with heavily mortgaged estates, and when he is tenant for life.
    I hope therefore the Government will take this matter in hand forthwith so as to prevent the price of agricultural land from being increased still further by Government competition in the sale room, and if necessary I trust legislation will be enacted forthwith which will enable the Government to secure the land at a reasonable price. duly compensating the tenants who are turned out to make room for the soldier."
    1222
    6.0 P.M.
    I submit an expression of opinion coming from a man in a position of Sir Howard Frank should carry very considerable weight with this House. In the Amendment I propose I am asking the Government to pass legislation which will effect what Sir Howard thinks is absolutely necessary at the present time if the soldier is to get land on anything like reasonable terms, and if the Government is not to be saddled with a loss. This Amendment has been very carefully drafted. I am very anxious to frame anything I may do in this House upon the best models. The first part' of the Amendment is based upon the Amendment which I think originally appeared on the Paper in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), and which now appears later in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle (Lieut.-Colonel Weigall), where he is proposing for the tenant of a county council what, in my Amendment, I propose should be given to the county council itself. Under the Small Holdings Act the county council has the power to hire compulsorily, and it has the power to buy. What I suggest in the first part of my Amendment is that it should be given the power to buy after it has hired. That seems to me the only possible method by which we can avoid the necessity of buying the land at the present really high prices. I think it was during the course of the Debate on the Second Reading that it was suggested that was the way out; that if there was the necessity of going into the market at the present time the county councils should be given the power not only to lease— and to hire—but later to buy at a time when the market prices were more favourable, and that then the scheme would start with a better chance of success. It would not be weighted with the expenses incurred if the changes are to take place at the present time. The first part of the Amendment says:
    " A council which has hired land compulsorily or by agreement shall have the option at any time during the tenancy of purchasing the holding from the landlord, and if the council so desires the purchase money shall be paid by means of an annuity."
    It will probably be at once pointed out— although I hope the necessity for doing so may disappear after what I have still to say—it may naturally be pointed out that the difficulties which arise if that course is taken and the land hired is that there may be expenditure upon it by the

    1223
    county council, and it might be very difficult later, when buying the land, to distinguish between the value of the land itself and the value due to this expenditure and these improvements. I might have despaired of drafting an Amendment that would have met a situation of the kind if I had had only my own unaided capacity to rely upon. But the situation has been fully met. It has been faced in the events of the last few years. This House has made provision for dealing with it. During the course of the War the various Government Departments have, in many cases, had to take land, to incur very considerable expenditure in improving that land, and, at alater period, to distinguish between the value due to the land itself and the value due to the expenditure of the Government Department. In the Acquisition of Land Act, 1916, which was part of the Defence of the Realm legislation, there was a compensation Clause which provided for distinguishing in such cases between the value of the land as it "was at the time it was taken by the Government Department and the value of the land subsequently after the expenditure by the Government on improvements. With a very slight adaptation the latter part of this Amendment would meet the cases of the kind which might arise. It reads:
    "In determining the amount of compensation the value of the land shall be taken to be the value which the land would have had at the date of the notice to treat if it had remained in the condition in which it was at the commencement of the tenancy without regard to any enhancement or depreciation in the value which may be attributable, directly or indirectly, to any buildings, works, or improvements erected…
    I submit the Amendment to the Government. It seems to me that it does help us in a very real difficulty. It will, I trust, enable the provisions of this Bill to be carried out with the least possible expenditure, and in effecting that it must, it seems to me, facilitate very greatly the work in which the right hon. Gentleman in his Department are engaged. There can be no hardship entailed in it. The provisions proposed to be applied in the case of the tenant are those which have been, and are being, applied in the case of property taken during the War. This is just one of those cases where the experience we have acquired during the War in dealing with a difficult situation might be applied in the present emergency.
    Mr. T. A. LEWIS: I beg to second the-Amendment.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I have taken a great deal of trouble to consider this-Amendment, to see how far we can meet the objects of the Movers, and how far it is necessary; because I recognise that one of the great difficulties we have in this land settlement is that we are buying and equipping holdings at the most expensive time. Seeing we do not intend that this additional expense should fall upon the settlers—and if that is the case there must be a deficit—it will fall upon the taxpayers. We want, therefore, to avoid that so far as we can. I realise that probably as regards the acquisition of land, the best way is not to buy but to hire, and possibly to buy later, when, we may suppose, the bulk of the land has fallen in price. Whether it will fall, and when, is at present problematical, so that at present possibly hiring is the better plan; but there is no reason why the councils should not buy later the land which is already hired. I have considered the matter very carefully to see whether we can accept this Amendment, and really whether it is necessary. I will just tell the House the conclusion I came to after going into it fully with my advisers at the Board of Agriculture, Part of the Amendment we could not accept at all. We cannot agree to force the owner of land to take an-annuity. We do not think that is fair. It is a very good plan that there should be annuities which the owner may take if he so wishes. If my hon. and gallant Friend will look at Clause 8 he will see we have provided that in all these purchases-the compensation may be by annuity if the-owner is willing to take it. And in many cases, we believe, the annuity instead of cash will be accepted, especially from corporations. We do not, however, think it is fair to compel the owner to take an annuity as proposed in this Amendment. That part of the Amendment, therefore, we are entirely opposed 1o in principle.
    My hon. Friend proposes that a council shall, any time after having hired land, buy, apparently whether they hire the land compulsorily or voluntarily; and he proposes that the compensation shall be fixed in such a manner that you shall take the then value of the land, taking it in the state it was when the tenancy commences,, and not taking into account any improvement executed by the council or their tenants. That, I think, in general is a per-

    1225
    fectly fair proposal. I came, however, to the conclusion that it was absolutely un-necessary to propose the Clause at all, and for this reason: it is all in the existing Acts at the present time. Under existing Acts the council may hire compulsorily. That is not altered by this Bill. On the contrary, we give greater facilities to hire compulsorily than exist now. After all, the council may purchase the land it has compulsorily hired by the simple process of making an order. You may make an order to acquire any land compulsorily, or you may make an order to acquire land that the council has already under the system of compulsory hiring.
    Then as to the compensation, let me point this out, that under the existing law if a council hires compulsorily it does so with the right of perpetual renewal. It may go on renewing time after time, and, in fact, it becomes practically a tenancy in perpetuity. Where a renewal takes place, it is a renewal at the then current value, without taking into account any increase in value due to the use of the land either by the council or their tenant. In fact, the lease is renewed on precisely the terms my hon. Friend introduces into the Amendment for the purchase and fixing of compensation when there is purchase. What follows?A council acquiring by order land which it has compulsorily hired with the right of renewal on these terms, such rights of renewal and compensation, therefore, will be. fixed, having regard to the fact that, the tenancy could be renewed in perpetuity and on those very conditions which are laid down in the Amendment of my hon. Friend. I suggest, therefore, from the point of view of dealing with land which has been hired compulsorily, we have full power at the present time. At any moment a council can purchase land it has hired, and do it on the terms contained in the proposed Amendment. I will come down to what really happens. For reasons that I do not quite understand councils have not availed themselves of this right of compulsory hiring to the extent that I think they might reasonably have done. I do not notice any particular disposition on the part of councils to avail themselves of that power now. We, therefore, propose to point out by circular in the strongest impossible terms the obvious advantage of proceeding by hire at the present time rather than by purchase. Some strong
    1226
    admonition on the part of the Board of Agriculture may be effectual. There is one further point. My hon. Friend's Amendment deals, I understand, with all cases of hire, be they compulsory or be they voluntary. I think the hon. Member will agree that it would be unfair in the case of voluntary hiring if we made the Clause retrospective, and compelled an owner to sell when he was quite unaware of this provision when he made the voluntary arrangement. Having regard to the future, is it wise to introduce compulsory purchase in cases where land has been hired by voluntary agreement? I do not think it is. If you do that you will pretty well freeze up the plans of voluntary agreement altogether. If after making a voluntary agreement landlords can be compelled to sell not at any definite time, but at any time, the landowner will say, "We will not let voluntarily, and you must proceed by compulsory law." I am all in favour of having compulsory power, but wherever we can proceed by voluntary agreement I think we should do so. I think this proposal would prevent voluntary arrangements being made, and I shall certainly oppose the Amendment as regards voluntary hiring. We cannot agree to any voluntary system of annuities being forced upon landowners. We think, as regard cases of compulsory hiring, the powers exist to-day, and the compensation paid will be nothing more nor less than is contained in the Amendment. As regards voluntary arrangements, we think it most undesirable to introduce the proposed plan, which would have the effect of putting an end to voluntary arrangements and would make it more difficult for the councils to obtain land. Although I sympathise with my hon. and gallant Friend's object, I cannot accept the Amendment.
    Major BARNES: I am extremely obliged to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for his very able and valuable statement, and if I had had the advantage of consulting his advisers I should not have put down this Amendment. I am pleased to find that practically the whole substance of my Amendment is already within the present Clause, and if my hon. and gallant Friend can assure me that in the circular he proposes to issue he will not only point out the advantages of compulsory hiring, but also the fact that they can" also purchase compulsorily the land they have hired com-

    1227
    pulsorily, that will meet what I have in view. I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    CLAUSE 3.—(Power of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to Provide Land for Settlement.)
    (1) If the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries are satisfied that in any county the council are not providing small holdings, or land to be leased to a parish council for the provision of allotments, to such extent as in the opinion of the Board is desirable, the Board shall in that county during a period of two years after the passing of this Act acquire land to such extent as they think desirable for small holdings or to be leased to a parish council for the provision of allotments, and for such purpose and for the use or disposal of the land when acquired the Board shall have the same powers as may be exercised by a county council under the principal Act, and the provisions of the principal Act relating to the acquisition use or disposal of land by a county council and to small holdings provided by a county council shall apply with the necessary adaptations to the acquisition use and disposal of land by the Board and to small holdings provided by the Board under this Section.

    (2) Where the Board determine to exercise in any county the powers conferred by this Section they shall give notice of such determination to the council of the county.

    (3) A county council shall furnish the Board with all such information as the Board may require for the purposes of this Section.

    (4) The Board may at any time transfer land acquired under this Section to the; council of the county in which it is situate if the Board are satisfied that the council are willing to exercise and perform their powers and duties in relation thereto, but the terms of any transfer shall be subject to the approval of the Treasury.

    (5) The expenses of the Board under this Section to such extent as may be sanctioned by the Treasury shall be defrayed out of the Small Holdings Account, and the receipts of the Board under this Section shall be paid into that account.

    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "allotments," to insert the words
    "or in any borough or urban district the borough or urban district council are not providing allotments."
    This Amendment is intended to provide for the case where the Board are satisfied that allotments are not being provided, the Board may do so. It makes provision in the case of any borough or urban district council not providing the necessary allotments that the Board of Agriculture may step in. At present if the urban district council or borough council do not provide allotments the matter will have to go to the county council, and if they fail then it will have to go to the Board. I suggest to my hon and gallant Friend that this is
    1228
    a more expeditious way of dealing with the matter. Rightly or wrongly some of the allotment owners think that many county councils are not particularly sympathetic towards their aspirations, and are more concerned with greater agricultural activities. Be that as it may, I think the allotment-holders should have power to step in this way. If my hon. and gallant Friend does not feel inclined to accept this proposal perhaps he will say whether the Board proposes to take any other steps to meet the state of things which I have mentioned with regard to the action of county councils.
    Major PRESCOTT: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: So far as I can follow what the Amendment provides, I think there are full powers to deal with the matter, except possibly with the case of a defaulting county borough. There may be cases in which a county borough has made default and I think it is possible some further Amendment may be necessary to meet that case. I am quite prepared to say we will consider that with a view to trying to bring forward an Amendment to meet this point in another place. Perhaps my hon. Friend will acept that assurance and not press his Amendment.
    Mr. RENDALL: I hope the Solicitor-' General will make quite plain what his reply is to this point. We should like to know whether there are these powers in the Board of Agriculture or not. The Amendment proposes that the Board of Agriculture should have the powers which the county councils now have. The right hon. Gentleman has not said quite clearly that the Board of Agriculture had those powers. If he is not prepared to grant what my hon. Friend wants in this Amendment, to give the Board of Agriculture power instead of the county councils, perhaps he might give the Board of Agriculture these powers as well as the county council. I hope he will answer the point which the Amendment raises.
    Mr. L. SCOTT: My impression is that the word "county" includes a county borough, and, therefore, the language of the Clause as drafted covers the specific point which the Solicitor-General referred to. There is a point, however, which is not covered an the Clause which would be covered by the Amendment, and that is in a borough or urban district the duty of providing allotments should be brought

    1229
    within the scope of the Clause so that if the Board of Agriculture thinks that an urban district council or a borough council is not providing allotments for the urban population to the extent they ought to be provided the Board should have the power, as in the case of the county council, to enforce the provisions of this Clause. It is a point of considerable importance, and I wish to supplement the request made that, before deciding to refuse this Amendment, the Government should make sure that the Clause as drafted gives them the power to do what the Amendment proposes. My view is that the Clause as drafted does not give that power, and that the Amendment is necessary in order to confer upon the Board the power we want. I think we all know that some borough councils of the smaller type and some urban district councils have been very progressive in finding land for allotments, whilst others have been very much the opposite. It is just because some are not progressive or even reactionary that the guiding power of the Board of. Agriculture provided for under this Amendment is so very desirable.
    Amendment negatived.
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words
    "during a period of two years after the passing of this Act."
    This Clause gives power to the Board for two years only after the passing of the Act, and my Amendment proposes to leave out those words. I have an Amendment to make it live years instead of two, but 1 should be willing to accept some other period.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: If the House will be content to make it three years, I am willing to accept such an Amendment. I think that proposal would fit in with the general scheme of the Bill.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "two," and insert the word "three."— [Sir Kingsley Wood]
    Sir F. BLAKE: I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert
    "(3) Before acquiring any land under the provisions of this Section the Board shall consult with the chairman of the council of the county in which the land proposed to be acquired is situate, or with a committee of that council, as to the suitability of the land proposed to be acquired."
    1230
    I think it is desirable that everything should be done to make this scheme work as harmoniously as possible under the circumstances which are contemplated in this Clause, and it is with that object in view that I move this Amendment. If I could see anywhere in the Clause any reference to any consultation with the county council, which, after all, is the statutory body to carry out the provisions both of the principal Bill and this measure, I should not move this Amendment. This Amendment does not interfere with the principle of the Clause as drafted, that the Board may provide land for settlement in any country where the county council has not done its proper duty. The suggestion is that before acquiring any land the Board should consult that body which, from its position and from the fact that it has been administering these Acts since 1908, it is presumed would be best qualified to give an opinion as to the suitability of the land proposed to be acquired. It is mainly for the reason that I wish to preserve the harmonious working which is essential for the proper carrying out of this Clause and all the other Clauses in the Bill that I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that he might reconsider the decision to which he came when the Bill was in Committee. After all, what does it provide? The Clause says:
    "Where the Board determine to exercise in any county the powers conferred by this Section they shall give notice of such determination to the council of the county."
    Then it says:
    "A county council shall furnish the Board with all such information as the Board may require."
    It contemplates no breach of the good relations between the county council and the Board, because in the Sub-section which follows it says:
    "The Board may at any time transfer land acquired under this Section to the council of the county in which it is situate if the Board are satisfied that the council are willing to exercise and perform their powers and duties in relation thereto."
    That all points to the contemplation of a genuine difference of opinion between the Board and the county council either as to the necessity or possibility of acquiring land or as to the suitability of those who apply for it. I am quite sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is altogether desirable that the most harmonious relations should continue to exist during the discussion of these difficulties between the Board and the county council. With that

    1231
    object in view, and that object only, I submit to the hon. Gentleman that there might be, if not actually in the Bill in what he says, some indication that he is not going to take hearsay evidence only in being satisfied that the county council are not carrying out the provisions of the Small Holdings Act, but that he will consult the chairman. I suggest at the same time that we might have something inserted in the Bill to give some assurance to the council in order to keep things sweet and to make the Act work as we all hope that it will work.
    Mr. CAUTLEY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    It is quite true that this Clause provides what is to be done if a county council is in default. It gives the Board of Agriculture power to step in. and do the work that the county council ought to have done. It is most desirable that there should not be any breach between the Board of Agriculture and the county council, and, if we put in these words requiring the Board of Agriculture before they actually acquire the land to consult the committee of the county council or the chairman, it will enable them to get further local knowledge. The main point, however, is that it will mean the avoidance of friction, although there may be a genuine difference of opinion as to putting the powers of this Act into operation. The Amendment will do no harm, and it may do a great deal of good, and I therefore support it.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: Both the Mover and the Seconder of this Amendment have laid stress upon the fact that they want to secure that the good relations between the Board and the county council shall be maintained. They therefore propose to put in this Sub-section. I am going to ask them and the House whether they think that it will really add anything to the Clause as it stands? The operation of the Clause comes into play when the Board or Agriculture are satisfied that in any county the council are not providing small holdings. I cannot imagine that the Board will act unreasonably upon hearsay evidence, as the Mover suggested, or become satisfied unless they take adequate precautions to get full information. I am quite certain that you may trust the Board not to wish to fall out with the council and to take all proper steps to be sure that the information that they have re-
    1232
    ceived is adequate and sufficient, and that both sides have been properly heard. If that be so, you have a case where the Board are satisfied that the council is in default. The Board, havng come to that conclusion, would the position be improved by saying that before acquiring any land they must consult the chairman of the council of the county? I can conceive a ease where the chairman of the council might say, "While it is quite true that some opportunity was given to me, it was not an adequate consultation, and I am not satisfied that the Sub-section which is part of the Statute has been really carried out." The Board, on the other hand, might say, "We did consult the chairman." It might thus lead to added friction.
    One must put some sort of trust both in the Board and in the chairman of the council, who, after all, is a person whom we must trust very largely, and the council itself. If there were ill will—I hesitate to use the word, but still, not good will—I cannot conceive that there, would be any sort of assistance, or precaution, or safeguard given by saying in the Statute that there is to be a consultation between the Board and the chairman of the council. May we not leave it to the good sense of the Board and the courtesy and the good sense of the chairman of the council? Do not let us give rights about which there may be difficulty of interpretation, and which may give rise to some friction. Let us believe that the responsible chairman of a county council and his council, as well as the Board, will take such steps to meet one another in order to co-operate. This Sub-section, which has been proposed with all good will for the purpose of dealing with what might be a strained situation, would not save the situation, and might even add to it. Under these circumstances, I hope that my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    CLAUSE 4.— (Power of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to Acquire Land for Reclamation, etc.)
    (1) During a period of two years after the passing of this Act the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may, with the consent of the Treasury, purchase or hire land for reclamation or drainage, and for such purpose shall have the same powers as may be exercised by a county council under the principal Act, for the acquisition of land for small holdings, and the provisions of the principal Act relating to such acquisition shall apply with the necessary adaptations.

    1233

    (2) The powers of management conferred on the Board by Section four of the Small Holding Colonies Act, 1916, shall apply with the necessary modifications in relation to land acquired by the Board under this Section or any other enactment.

    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the word "two" ["during a period of two years "] and to insert instead thereof the word "three."
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: We cannot see our way to accept this Amendment. We propose that for two years we shall have the right to acquire land out of public funds for the purpose of reclamation or drainage. We think that just at this moment it may be possible to reclaim or drain a certain amount of land which may be used for small holdings, and which, at all events, may employ a large number of demobilised men. It is, however, simply a temporary experiment, and it is not intended to extend it. Already we have power, which we have exercised, through the Development Commissioners, and, although we propose to take power for a limited period to purchase land directly, we think, after that period, that we ought to get back to the regular system, and apply for loans and grants from the Commissioners.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "holdings" "for the acquisition of land for small holdings "J, to insert the words "or allotments."

    Certain optimistic allotment-holders think that something can be done for them, especially in the neighbourhood of Lea Valley and elsewhere, if these words are inserted in this Clause. It gives the Board power to reclaim land for the purposes of allotments as well as small holdings.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 5.—(Power of Acquiring Land for Small Holding Colonies.)
    (3) In the selection of persons to be settled on land acquired under the Small Holding Colonies Acts, 1910 and 1918, as amended by this Section, the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall give the like preference to women who are certified by the Hoard of Agriculture and Fisheries to have been engaged in whole-time employment on agricultural work for a period of not less than six months during the present War and to persons who have served in the Forces of the Crown during any previous war, as they are required by those Acts to give to persons who have served in the Forces of the Crown in the present War.
    Captain COOTE: 1 beg to move, in Subsection (3), after the word "war" ["served in the Forces of the Crown during any previous war"], to insert the words
    "and to persons who, having volunteered to serve in the Forces of the Crown subsequently to the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, were rejected on the grounds of medical unfitness."
    Although the purpose of the Amendment is fairly clear, perhaps I may be allowed to add one or two words of explanation and amplification. This Clause is primarily intended to benefit a class which, like Members of the House of Commons, is small but deserving. It is also part of a larger question which I should like to ask the House to consider. It is perfectly true, as has been said this afternoon, that the county councils in this country are providing small holdings for ex-Service men; but there is one fact which is forgotten. An enormous number of civilians in this country have registered applications with county councils, and those applications, in many instances, date back many years. This Amendment is an attempt to obtain for a small proportion of that class of civilians the same privileges that are to be enjoyed by ex-Service men. It will not prejudice in any way the advantages which ex-Service men will obtain under this Bill. It merely adds a very small number of civilians to those who will obtain the advantages— and they arc great advantages—which will be conferred upon ex-Service men by the Bill. In my own part of the country there are hundreds of civilians who have put in applications for some thousands of acres, and those applications date back for a considerable number of years—in some cases as far back as seven years. There is a feeling in the country that, although the Government are justified, and very fully justified, in giving ex-Service men the preference, yet they ought to give some earnest of their intention of not stopping short of putting ex.-Service men on the land and give some visible proof that it is their intention to benefit the whole of the community. It is for that purpose I move this Amendment. It will affect a very small number of men, and it will not in any way infringe upon or injure any principle contained in this Bill, neither will it commit the Government to anything on an extensive scale.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I regret I cannot accept this Amendment. We are dealing

    1235
    with small holdings colonies which arc specifically designed for men who have served. The idea is that these men were taken away from their civil employment and either went abroad or served at home, and they lost the work they were doing before that. Many of them would like to go on to the land. It is difficult for them to get a start, and opportunity will be afforded for a certain number, under advantageous circumstances, to get that start in. these small holdings colonies. But it does not apply to the case of the men who volunteered and were not accepted. They thereby suffered no disadvantage. They retained their regular work. Under these circumstances, I hope my hon. Friend will withdraw his proposal.
    Captain COOTE: I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment. But I have a similar one later on, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give it more favourable consideration.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    CLAUSE 9.— (Amendment of Principal Act as Respects Power to Acquire Land for Small Holdings.)
    (1) The power of a council to council land for small holdings under the principal Act shall not be exercised during the period ending on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, except with the previous consent of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, or after the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, except at such a price or rent or for such an annuity as in the opinion of the council will allow all expenses incurred by the council in relation to the land to be recouped out of the purchase money or rent to be obtained by the council for the land.

    (2) Sub-section (3) of Section seven of the principal Act (which regulates the price or rent which land for small holdings may be acquired) shall cease to have effect.

    (3) This Section shall be deemed to have had effect as from the first day of January, nineteen hundred and nineteen.

    Major LANE-FOX: I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (3).
    This Amendment must be read in eon-junction with my next Amendment, which gives power to the council to acquire land without the consent of the Board of Agriculture, and the Sub-section which I am now moving to omit would make that retrospective as from the first day of January, 1919. I do not want it to be made retrospective, and, therefore, I propose to insert the further Amendment which stands in my name, which provides that the council shall still have the power to purchase land without the previous con-
    1236
    sent of the Board of Agriculture, but in the event of a purchase without such consent the council is not to be entitled to recoupment of losses under the provisions of Sub-section (2) of Sections 22 and 23 of this Act, in respect of purchase money paid after the date of the operation of the Act. It must be obvious to everyone that in many cases it will be impossible for a council to get the consent of the Board of Agriculture previously to the transaction, and it may be extremely necessary that for the purpose of securing—

  ROYAL ASSENT.
  Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
  The House went, and, having returned,
  MR. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:

  1. Anthrax Prevention Act, 1919.

  2. Disabled Men (Facilities for Employment) Act, 1919.

  3. Grant of Administration (Bonds) Act, 1919.

  4. Law Agents Apprenticeship (War Service) (Scotland) Act, 1919.

  5. Matrimonial Causes (Dominion Troops) Act, 1919.

  6. Weights and Measures (Leather Measurement) Act, 1919.

  7. Statement of Rates Act, 1919.

  8. Official Solicitor Act, 1919.

  9. Solicitors (Articled Clerks) Act, 1919.

  10. Public Notaries (Articled Clerks) Act, 1919.

  11. Bridge of Allan Water Order Confirmation Act, 1919.

  12. Edinburgh and Leith Corporations Gas Order Confirmation Act, 1919.

  13. Northampton Gas Act, 1919.

  14. Legal and General Assurance Society's Act, 1919.

  15. Hartlepool Corporation Act, 1919.

  16. Mansfield Railway Act, 1919.

  17. Reigate Corporation Act, 1919.

  18. Hartlepool Gas and Water Act, 1919.

  19. Beccles Waterworks Act, 1919.

  20. Tees Conservancy Act, 1919.

  21. Stourport Gas Act, 1919.

  22. Sunderland Gas Act, 1919.

  23. Wear Navigation and Sunderland Dock Act, 1919.

  24. Chepstow Water Act. 1919.

  LAND SETTLEMENT (FACILITIES) BILL
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), further considered.
  LAND SETTLEMENT (FACILITIES) BILL

    CLAUSE 9.— (Amendment of Principal Act as Respects Power to Acquire Land for Small Holdings.)
    (3) This Section shall be deemed to have had effect as from the first day of January, nineteen hundred and nineteen.
    7.0 P.M.
    Major LANE-FOX: I was moving to leave out Sub-section (3), and was saying that the present position of the county councils is that they have "power to purchase land to let for small holdings without the consent of the Board of Agriculture if they are prepared not to require the recoupment of losses, which they can obtain when they have obtained the previous consent of the Board of Agriculture. The proposal in the Clause is that they shall no longer have that power. By Sub-section (3), which I wish to have omitted, that plenary power is made retrospective. It is quite clear that a county council very often cannot have time to get the consent of the Board of Agriculture, and must lose the chance of buying a particular piece of land which it is very important for them to have. They must have time, before they complete the purchase, to inspect the land. Probably members of the small holdings committee would want to see it. In the case of the West Biding of Yorkshire County Council and many other councils there are inquiries made about minerals, and so on. A certain number of inquiries obviously have to be made. It would not be possible to get the previous consent of the Board of Agriculture in the case of land being sold by auction. There might be some sale, not heard of before, in some town and the county council might wish to buy. I want to know what the position of the Board is going to be, supposing land had been bought by a council at an auction. It rests with the Board to confirm or disallow it. Obviously, it would be impossible for the Board to take up the position of disallowing the bid the county council had made in an auction for any particular piece of land. This Clause, therefore, creates an impossible position. In making this provision retrospective, it makes it oven more impossible. What will be the title of a county council which since the 1st January has actually bought land?
    1238
    There are a good many cases where they have bought land since the 1st of January without the consent of the Board of Agriculture. Are they to submit to not having their losses recouped? If this power is made retrospective to the 1st January, it will mean that they will have no title which they can show to any land they have bought since that date. That is the reason why I ask that this Sub-section should be omitted, and that the next Amendment standing in my name should be inserted, because it gives the county councils again the power to purchase without the consent of the Board of Agriculture, if they think fit, subject to their not being able to claim recoupment.
    Sir F. BLAKE: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I cannot very well accept this Amendment. I have to consider the actual effect of it, taken by itself. That effect would be this: In cases where the council have bought land at prices which, in their opinion, would not permit of the expenses in relation to the land being recouped out of the land, the council would be placed in an impossible position. Under the existing law councils can only buy at prices which they think can recoup themselves. When the idea of land settlement started and when after the Armistice money was available for the purposes of purchase, "we authorised the councils to go ahead. We did not wish to have any delay. We told them that we were going to bring in a Bill on these lines, that they need not observe the old terms, but that they would get this recoupment if there were a deficit on the working of the holdings. The-councils have acted very largely on that. Unless we have this Sub-section (3), which makes the action retrospective, these councils would be in the position that their action would be illegal. We could: not, therefore, in the interests of the councils, agree to the deletion of the Subsection. I understand that my hon. and gallant Friend desires that there should be a general right on the part of county councils to buy without the consent of the Board, and then not to have the advantages of recoupment. I cannot understand why any council should want to do that. They will be doing it at their own risk. They will be buying at a time when land is dear, when recoupment is very expensive and when the interest on the loans is very high. The result can only

    1239
    be that if they let the land at such rents as the smallholders can pay, there will be a heavy deficit every year, which will not be paid by the Government and which, therefore, will fall upon the rates. I cannot believe that any council would do that. Supposing they did, the effect would be you would have two separate systems of small holdings—those bought under this Bill, for which there is recoupment out of the public purse, and, secondly, those financed entirely by the county councils. That would lead, among other things, to a complication of accounts. We wish, as far as possible, to simplify the whole process. I cannot believe that any county council would do it. If they did, I cannot believe it would be the wish of the House that there should be two separate systems of small holdings running concurrently. We cannot accept the Amendment, which strikes at the whole root of the Bill—that is, that small holdings should be established at the expense of the State, run by the councils as agents for the State for the period of seven years, and then handed over as going concerns to the councils. I regret that I cannot accept the Amendment.
    Mr. MOUNT: If the Parliamentary Secretary correctly interprets the Subsection there is a good deal to be said for his. argument. The first part of Subsection (1) reads:
    "The power of a council to acquire land for small holdings under the principal Act shall not be exercised during the period ending on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, except with the previous consent of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries."
    That part is affected by Sub-section (3). The second part says, that the land shall not be purchased
    "except at such a price or rent or for such an annuity as in the opinion of the council will allow all expenses incurred by the council in relation to the land to be recouped out of the purchase money or rent to be obtained by the council for the land."
    That part is not affected by Sub-section (3).
    Sir. F. BANBURY: May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether this is not the explanation? Does he intend, under this Clause, to give the consent of the Board of Agriculture to the purchases made by different county councils since the 1st January of this year? If that is so, the fears of my hon. and gallant Friend are groundless. I do not think it
    1240
    is good to have retrospective legislation, but I quite follow the point that without this provision county councils who have bought land since the 1st, January will lose; therefore this. Clause is put in so that the Board of Agriculture may go to the councils and say, "We are prepared to give consent and will give it."
    Major LANE-FOX: I am afraid I must be dense, but I do not understand even now what the position is under this Clause. The Clause says that the power of county councils to acquire land for small holdings shall not be exercised except with the previous consent of the Board of Agriculture. The Government have already encouraged councils to buy without that consent. Is the consent to be retrospective?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Yes.
    Major LANE-FOX: Then I understand it. A promise may have been given which perfectly justifies the words as they stand. Without an assurance of that kind, councils who have actually bought since the 1st of January would have absolutely no title to the land unless they had previously obtained the consent from the Board of Agriculture. There has been a very considerable rise, and, therefore, a. great many councils will be affected. If my hon. and gallant Friend distinctly tells 'me the consent of the Board of Agriculture will, notwithstanding, be given to this retrospectively I should very much like to have it in the Act.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: The position is this. We indicate to the councils that our consent would be necessary. In the great majority of cases we have given consent, therefore the matter is already settled. This merely legalises the action that they took with our consent and at our suggestion. I am told there are one or two cases where councils have acted without obtaining our consent in the first instance. In not a single one of those cases, I am told, has the purchase been actually completed. Before it is completed, if it is going to be completed, it is our intention to give consent.
    Major LANE-FOX: Then it is the intention of the Board to give consent in every case?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I believe in all cases up to date where purchase has been completed consent has been given. In one or two cases purchase has not been completed. If we do not give consent it will

    1241
    not be completed. As I understand, from the cases which have come before me, I believe it is our intention to give consent.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    CLAUSE 10.— [Duties of County Councils in Respect to Sale or Lease of Lund.)
    (2) Where land is sold for small holdings at any time before the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, the sale shall only be made subject to the approval of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries.
    (3) A council may give to the tenant of as mall holding an option to purchase the holding on such terms as may be agreed and be consistent with the provisions of this Section, and on any such sale any increase of the value of the land due to improvements executed by and at the expense of the tenant shall not be taken in to account in estimating the best price obtainable for the land.
    (4) A council, when selling or letting a smallholding at any time before the expiration two years after the passing of this Act, shall give preference to men who have served in the Forces of the Crown and to women who are certified by the Board to have been engaged in whole-time employment on agricultural work for a period of not less than six months during the present War.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "holdings" ["Where land is sold for small holdings "], to insert the word?
    "or an option to purchase a small holding is given."
    This and the following two Amendments arts three very small Amendments which were moved in Committee, and. which I promised to consider. They make very little difference, but they are asked for by the county councils.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made: After the word "sale" ["the sale shall only be made "], insert the words "or option."
    After the word "made," insert the words" or given."— [Sir A. Boscawen.]
    Captain Sir B. STANIER: I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (3), and to insert instead thereof
    "(3) (a) Subject to the approval of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, a tenant of a small holding shall have the option at any time during his tenancy of purchasing his holding from the council, and, if the tenant so desires, the purchase money shall be paid by means of a purchase annuity, which shall be fixed by the Treasury, and the annuity shall be calculated at the lowest rate which will, in the opinion of the Treasury, secare the Treasury against loss.
    (b) The purchase annuity shall be paid until the whole of the advance" is ascertained, in a manner prescribed by the Treasury, to have
    1242
    been paid, and the terms of purchase shall also, include such other terms as are not inconsistent with this Section.
    (c) On any purchase under this Section any increase of the value of the land due to improvements executed by and at the expense of the tenant shall not be taken into account in fixing, the purchase money to be payable by the purchaser.''
    We want to see better facilities given. to enable the ex-soldier to purchase his holding if he so desires. We believe that in doing this we shall bring up a phrase which was used by the late Mr. Jesse Col-lings when he made his great plea for the ownership of small holdings—"the magic of ownership." We believe the old Act, with its Clause 19, does not give the facilities nor the chances that we want to see the soldiers of the present day get. In Ireland, that favoured country, every thing is thrown to the smallholders to enable them to become owners. In bringing forward this Amendment, we do not ask the Government to put themselves to any loss. That is more than can be said in regard to Ireland, because there the money is advanced at 2¾ per cent. The Amendment provides that the purchase annuity shall be paid until the whole of the advance is ascertained to have been, paid, and the terms of purchase shall also include such other terms as are not inconsistent with the Clause. The whole question was argued in Committee, but those who were not on the Committee wish to bring it forward now with the request that it shall receive the most favourable-consideration.
    Brigadier-General COLVIN: I beg to second the Amendment.
    It is very desirable that we should attract as many soldiers as we possibly can to take up work on the land, and I am sure it will be a very great attraction to them if they think they will soon become owners. I am sure, too, that the more men we can get to own land the greater stability there will be and the less unrest.
    Mr. CAUTLEY: I desire to support the Amendment with all the power I possess, in the interests of the smallholders themselves in the first instance, and, secondly, in the interest of the State and the community generally. The Bill simply provides that a county council may, if it chooses, give an option to a smallholder to purchase. It does not say on what terms or when or how. The Amendment proposes that to every smallholder there shall be given an option to purchase his-

    1243
    holding at any time on the terms provided by the Amendment, which are that he shall, if he wishes, be entitled to purchase by an annuity fixed at the lowest possible price that the county council can afford to take without losing money. It is left in that way because the rate of money varies, although it is not likely to diminish in future. It is only by an annuity that the Clause will be of any value at all. Smallholders are men with small means, and they could not pay down any large lump sum, but if they see their way to success and they are put in a position, by the extra 4 per cent., or whatever they have to pay, to provide an annuity repayable in forty, fifty, or sixty years, it will be an enormous attraction to them, and will act as a spur and incentive to them to extend their operations and the State will benefit and the individual will benefit no less. I can see no answer to the reasonableness for the desirability of the Amendment. I warn the Parliamentary Secretary that to everyone who is interested in this question it is very great nonsense to suggest, ns I dare say he may, that the county councils will be hampered in managing their estates. I do not believe they will for a moment. It is suggested that there may be twenty or thirty smallholders together, and there may be one or two purchases being completed. They will not be completed for many years, and the land agents will still be looking after the property, and even if they were completed, if any smallholder had succeeded to such a degree that he was able to pay down for his holding, it is common to every estate in the country that they have other persons' property mixed up with their own, and it will add no trouble of any sort to the management of the estate because there happen to be one or two small holdings belonging to the smallholders them selve3amongst them. This matter has been considered, and the Amendment is really put down by the Rural League, an institution that has done a very considerable amount of work in setting up small industries in village communities. They have a number of persons who are prospective smallholders, and who have become smallholders, and they arc universal in their demand for this facility to become the owners of the holdings they have made or are going to make. For these reasons, I wish particularly to impress on the Parliamentary Secretary that
    1244
    this is an Amendment that ought to be acceded to. It cannot do any possible harm, and it may hold out a lot of encouragement to these smallholders, and will induce them to put extra work into their holdings, and it ought to lead to a great successful movement, and to my mind it will be a most vital feature of the Bill.
    Mr. ACLAND: I am not sure whether this can be properly worked into the framework of the Bill. A few minutes ago we were agreed that it was desirable, in order to avoid the present enhanced prices of land, that county councils should be urged not to purchase their land out-and-out but to lease it, and possibly to purchase later on. The hon. Gentleman (Sir A. Boscawen) said ho was going to send instructions advising the county councils to use those powers of leasing land rather than purchase out-and-out. What happens if that is done? A county council has a lot of land on lease and a particular tenant chooses to exercise his option of purchase. You cannot have one small piece of land purchased out of a large area which the county council is only leasing. That is one of the main conditions straight away in which this power to purchase could not really be exercised.
    Mr. CAUTLEY: They can only sell when they are the owners.
    Mr. ACLAND: Quite so. But the Amendment would be represented as giving all persons who are settled under this scheme the option of purchase. That is broadly its desire, and yet here is a large class of cases straight away to which we agree at once the option of purchase could not really be given, and on the assumption that the offer of purchase is really attractive to these men, disappointment would be caused. The leasing arrangements, which we agree are very desirable if the Exchequer is to avoid heavy loss on these schemes owing to the present enhanced value of land, will be to that extent discouraged, because under them, of course, the option of purchase cannot be given. I have not yet seen anything in which the settler really gains by having the option of purchase compared with the absolute security of tenure of a public authority, which is about the best tenure a man can have. I believe it is a sentimental point of no great substance and that when, the matter is put fairly to a

    1245
    man he is perfectly content to be a tenant on the 'security which he possesses, and I have come across very little genuine desire —I know there is a political consideration involved—for purchase and ownership as against tenure on ordinary small-holding terms. If purchase really means anything as distinct from tenure, it means that a man once he has purchased can alienate— that he can sell the land.
    Mr. CAUTLEY: That is provided for already in the old Act.
    Mr. ACLAND: Then whit does the man get if he has not the power to alienate, if when he ceases to be a tenant it goes back to the county council to be re-allotted by them to some new tenant, and it is in no sense the actual possession of the man who purchases, so that he can sell to somebody else? What does ownership really mean? It cannot be worth very much if when a man has purchased he is not to have the power to sell to anybody he likes, and if he does sell to anybody else he is defeating the main purpose for which Parliament is passing this Statute. We do not want to go into large schemes and to put down large amounts of public money to obtain land, even for ex-soldiers, if they are to have the power to alienate to somebody else for whose benefit the scheme was not devised at all. If we try to weave into the Bill this principle of purchase we should be slow in departing from the old principle embodied in the Small Holdings Act that 20 per cent. of the purchase money should be put down before you allow a man to embark on a scheme of annuity payment. If we accept a modified form, it seems to me that requiring 20 per cent. of the purchase money is a very sound one, showing that the man at any rate has some pretty active and definite desire and power to take over the land, and I hope that will not be abandoned if any consideration is given to this matter.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I sympathise entirely with the desire expressed by many Members that there should be facilities to smallholders to buy. I have always said so. I believe that possession is a good thing. It tends to induce good cultivation, and we have provided in the Bill, in Clause 10, that there shall be means whereby a smallholder can buy his holding.
    Mr. SCOTT: No!
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: We have made provision whereby smallholders can, under certain circumstances, buy their holding.
    Mr. SCOTT: May!
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: We have made provision for smallholders to buy under certain circumstances. In Committee we amended the Clause so as to make it more favourable. if hon. Members recollect, the form in which the Bill was originally brought in was this, that if a smallholder wished to buy during the seven-year period between now and 1926 he could only buy at cost price. We took that out; and if you look at Subsection (2), there is nothing about his paying cost price, but simply that the purchase can be made subject to the approval of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. I think lion. Members will see that the Government have been willing to meet, as far as possible, the desire of these people to purchase on fair and reasonable terms. What would this Amendment do if it were accepted It would do two main things. First, it would give to every tenant the right to purchase, subject only to the consent of the Board of Agriculture. I cannot accept the view put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) that this Amendment would not upset the managements of estates by county councils. What would happen? The county council has a large estate. It is managing the estate as a whole, and very likely managing it most successfully, but this estate management could be entirely upset by one tenant here and another tenant there exercising the absolute option of purchase. Nobody expressed that argument more strongly than the right hon; Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), who, of course, knows a very great deal about estate management. My hon. Friends seek to get over that by giving a veto to the Board of Agriculture. Can you imagine anything more likely to cause friction and trouble between the Board and the county councils than cases where the county council have said, "We cannot, consistently with the proper management of our estate and the. interests of the rest of the tenants, allow A and B to buy their holdings"? Then the Board of Agriculture come along, and says, "You are entirely wrong; you are to allow that."
    Mr. CAUTLEY: Tell us how it will interfere with the management of the estate?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I think the hon. Member knows something about the management of estates. I would quote the opinion of the right hon. Member for Chelmsford, who is universally recognised as knowing a very great deal about the management of estates, and his opinion is that to allow any individual tenant, possibly in the middle of an estate, to buy their holding would upset the management. That is the view which has been represented to the Board over and over again most strongly by the county councils.
    Sir B. STANIER: Is it not a fact that at this moment the land belonging to the county councils is scattered in small plots all over the county?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: That may be the case, but I do not think it is an ideal arrangement. We hope the county councils will, as far as possible, buy large tracts of land and buy large estates which they can manage as a whole. That is what we are aiming at, but that would be entirely upset and the work of the county councils would be made far more difficult, while at the same time the interests of other tenants would suffer, if this Amendment were accepted. In any case, I can imagine no worse plan than to allow opportunity to any central authority to interfere with the management of the county councils by reversing decisions which the county council, with its local knowledge and responsibility for management, has come to. For that reason, so far as this Amendment is concerned—though I am not by any means averse; in fact, I am anxious that reasonable facilities should be given to purchase—I cannot accept the Amendment. There is a further point which is also very important, and that is that the purchase price" should be paid entirely by way of annuities. As things stand now, one-fifth of the purchase price has to be paid down in cash, and, having regard to the present uncertainty in the value of money, we could not allow this security to be abandoned. My point is, that this is not the time to do it. It may be possible, by a large and comprehensive measure dealing with land purchase—not merely land purchase of individual small holdings, but land purchase generally— that the time may come—I am not making
    1248
    a promise—swhen the Government may think it desirable to give the tenants of land generally some more favourable method of purchasing their holdings than exists to-day. I do not think this is the moment to do it, and certainly I do not think we ought to do it in respect of a very limited class. For these reasons,. though I sympathise entirely with the objects which my hon. Friends have in view, it is not possible for the Government to accept this Amendment.
    Mr. SCOTT: I hope the Government will not shut their ears to the main principle of the Amendment. It may be that in another place opportunity will be presented of. putting the Amendment in a different form. There is a great deal more in the Amendment than seems to be admitted by the hon. Member. There is no doubt that one of the chief competing attractions of settlement in the Dominions as distinguished from settlement in this country is the prospect of ownership. It is perfectly easy to belittle that emotion, for it is an emotion, by talking of it as mere sentiment; but, after all, it is one of the deep feelings in human nature. On this subject there have been three separate Committees. The Departmental Committee presided over by Sir Harry Verney dealt with colonies of smallholders to be run by the State in the main. That Committee, for the purpose of such colonies, advised tenancy, because of the peculiar characteristics in regard to these colonies. Those recommendations have been carried out almost in toto by the State Colonies Small Holdings Act. The next Committee that advised was the Agricultural Policy Sub-committee of the Reconstruction Committee presided over by Lord Selborne— —a very strong Committee—which reported, with one dissentient, strongly in favour of ownership. The last Committee was the Committee over which I had the honour of presiding, which sat last year. On my Committee agricultural labour was very strongly represented. Mr. Dallas, Mr. J. M. Duncan, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Lundon, Mr. Nichols, and, I think, one more representative of agricultural labour, were on the Committee. All sections of opinion were represented — owners, farmers, and labour. I do not think there was any Committee which dealt with this subject that was more representative. I want to read two or three sentences from our Report, which was published last December.
    Dr. MURRAY: Was it unanimous?
    Mr. SCOTT: On this point it was unanimous. I cannot remember what Mr. Leonard said in his Minority Report. Paragraph 39, after dealing with the earlier Committees, said:
    "We also feel that in cases where a man who has been fighting in defence of his native land expresses on his return a deliberate desire to possess as his own the holding which may be allotted the him, the Nation cannot fairly resist a claim of this nature, but must rather be prepared to meet such a demand in a generous, though prudent, spirit."
    Paragraph 40 says:
    "We accordingdy recommend that, so far as practicable, suitable and duty qualified applicants, who possess adequate knowledge and the experience which foreshadows success, shall have, if they desire it, the option of buying their holdings outright from county councils, and we think that in cases where such ownership is desired, the Government should be prepared through the; comity councils to advance to an approved applicant the whole cost of the land, including adaptation and equipment, in consideration of an annual payment for a period of years, providing for sinking; fund and interest. But we are at the same time of opinion that proper safeguards must be taken to ensure that such an ownership holding shall be protected from transfer to other uses, from undue subdivision, and from the possibility of being farmed in an un neighbourly spirit, by means of adequate covenants and also in the last resort by a power of forfeiture on fair compensation."
    Those are the views which my committee put forward on this subject. The present Amendment enables those views to be put into practice. Under its procedure if a tenant asks for the option to purchase, and is refused by the county council, the county council would refer the matter to the Board of Agriculture with its representations. Take an imaginary case of a county council having two large estates, one of which it proposes to develop as ownership holdings, and the other as tenancy holdings, and suppose that a holder on the tenancy holding estate asks for leave to purchase, the county council would say, "No, our Scheme was that estate B should be the ownership estate and not estate A, and you make a claim on this estate, and the man who wanted to buy ought to have gone to estate B." But suppose that after that system had been adopted at the outset it was found that practically all the tenants on the tenancy estate wanted to buy, why should not they? The Board of Agriculture would give effect to what was obviously the opinion of the majority of the settlers, and if that opinion was expressed, and they wanted to buy, why
    1250
    should not they? I hope very much that the Board will at least say this to the House to-night, that if they cannot accept this Amendment—though I for one propose to vote for it—they will accept an Amendment which would carry out the very moderate, prudent, and proper recommendations of the committee: whose report I have ventured to read to the House. On those lines everybody will be protected, and if the Government will not accept the Amendment as it stands, they should give an undertaking to the House that an Amendment to that effect will be inserted in another place, and if they do that I shall not press for a Division.
    Captain FITZROY: I cannot help thinking that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture is making a great mistake in taking up the attitude which he has assumed with regard to this Amendment. He has conjured up difficulties which do not exist. From his remarks it might be imagined that this is a Bill for the benefit of the county councils, and not for the settlement of men on the land. This is a Bill for the settlement on the land more especially of ex-soldiers, and also of others who wish to acquire small holdings. The right hon. Gentleman on the Front Opposition Bench (Mr. Acland) also objected to this Amendment. I rather think he was in favour of it on the Committee stage, and I do not know what has made him since that time raise objections against it. He asked what advantage a smallholder would get by being able to gain possession of his holding. Surely if he has experience of rural life he must know that there is a particular charm which attaches to ownership of the land. The owner gets obvious advantages. He gets the option of leaving his holding to his successors, so that it becomes a family possession. He gets the advantage of being able to sell it if he wants to do so under certain restrictions. He has only got to give notice and get the consent of the local authority to do it, and he gets the advantages that ownership gives. I am often asked, What does an agricultural labourer's life lead up to? Is there any great future before him? This is one of the means by which an agricultural labourer can get advancement in life, and instead of labouring all his days as a paid labourer, we hope that he may look forward to acquiring a bit of land of his own' from which he may make an honest living. The objections which have been raised

    1251
    against this seem to me to be positively ridiculous. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said that this Amendment did not take into consideration that the county council might be only hiring the land and sub-letting it to a smallholder. A very simple Amendment to this Amendment would make it quite clear that it refers only to land which is the property of the county council. I hope, therefore, that the Government will take up a different attitude towards this Amendment and accept it.
    Colonel GREIG: I make no apology for intervening in this Debate, because, although I was not on the Committee which dealt with this question and have not therefore had an opportunity of saying a word on it, I am particularly interested in this particular form of holding, because in Scotland we have succeeded in getting a tenure which is extremely like the small holding tenure, which is set up under the existing Acts in England and under this Act. I ask the Government to stand by their Clause. The last speaker said that they are only raising ridiculous objections. I believe that their action is founded on a very sound public policy. The hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mr. L. Scott) read out an extract from the Report of his own Committee. The purport of that very passage which he read out was that, where there was a possibility of the man obtaining ownership of his land, that ownership should be protected in a certain way so as to make it not only a fee simple ownership, but an ownership which should be protected against alienation. But the last speaker suggested that the very advantage of this Clause was that it will give the man the power of sale. Follow this out for a moment. You are creating, first of all, what I may call a small holding tenure. In the interests of the public you protect in their tenure those whom you get on the land. There is also a possibility under the existing Clause, as it is proposed by the Government, for the man, if he thought fit, to obtain ownership of the land, but only under very guarded circumstances, because there is only an optional power in the county council to do it. It is said that there is a very keen sentiment of ownership. That is perfectly true, but there is one sentimen in human nature which is a little stronger even than ownership. Suppose
    1252
    you have high prices coming in and a large number of smallholders, instituted to a large extent at public expense, and protected in their holdings under the existing tenure, protected against themselves from alienation, the attraction of a high price comes along, and if the Clause now suggested goes into the Bill there will be a loophole through which every small holding which you have created in the country can go back into the general mass and be absorbed.
    Mr. SCOTT: Under the existing Act, with which this Act will be read as one, the county council has adequate powers to prevent anything of the kind happening. That cannot be allowed. The county council has the right of pre-emption.
    Colonel GREIG: My answer to that is this. Leave this machinery, this system with this additional power to grant an option, but do not attempt to create a fresh tenure with none of the protections indicated by the hon. Member's own Committee, and subject to the extreme danger which I have pointed out of the likelihood of these particular holdings being absorbed in a time of high prices. I hope that the Government will stick to this. We have had this question thoroughly thrashed out in Scotland, and from the experience which we have there I ask the Government to retain the existing Clause which will protect the man even against himself, so that you. will not have the small holding disappear.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Perhaps I may be allowed to make a statement. Hon. Members will realise that though I sympathise very much with the object of the proposal I am not in a position to accept the Amendment, and I do not think that this particular Amendment would be workable. I am, however, prepared to do this. I recognise the strength of the appeal that there should be more adequate machinery for enabling smallholders to purchase if they wish to do so, and I am prepared to go as far as this. I will consult the President of the Board to-morrow, and I will see whether it is possible that he should put down something in the way of an Amendment in another place, I do not say to carry out these particular proposals, but to give some facilities calculated to carry out the object which is desired. I cannot even promise that it will be possible for him to do so, but we will certainly go very carefully through the whole question, in

    1253
    the light of the discussion which has taken place to-day, and I hope that it may be possible to have something moved in another place that may meet the views of the House generally.
    8.0 P.M.
    Sir R. LISTER: I was very much interested in this Debate, and I congratulate the Government on the stand which they have taken. For six years I was chairman of a smallholdings committee in my county, and I purchased some hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of land. That land is now well farmed, the smallholders are, in the main, highly prosperous, and I presume, had it not been for the War, I should still occupy the position of chairman of the committee, and I should have been proud to do so because I felt that I was doing a great deal of good. We put before all the applicants who came before us the case of purchase and the case of leases for eighty years, and in only two cases out of several hundreds did the applicants choose to purchase, and I believe that unless you can get a special class of applicant the purchase system will be a failure arid for this reason. Many applicants have the capital to buy the land or a large portion of it. They do not want to go to the county councils to carry out the matter when they can buy the land in the open market. My great objection to dealing with land by way of purchase without having the money is this: There is a great temptation, directly a man gets into difficulties, to raise money on it, and in nearly every case these men do get into difficulties. An other thing is that we shall have repeated in this country what has happened to a tremendous extent in the Province of Quebec—anyone going up the St. Lawrence will see evidences of it—that at the death of the applicant, unless he leaves only one heir, the small holding is divided, and that goes on until it disappears altogether. The Small Holdings Act of 1908 I consider to be a splendid measure that has worked well where the county councils have administered it with sympathy and with good judgment and have, not laid out a great deal of money on capital expenditure. I look upon the leasing system for eighty years as tantamount to a perpetual tenancy, and the smallholder can enjoy that tenancy without putting down a single penny of money. The applicants that applied to mo in the main possessed 'between £10 and £30, and they needed the whole of that money in order to purchase
    1254
    seeds and stock, and to carry them over the first year. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. We have in Gloucestershire hundreds of smallholders, and they bought their land, they occupied their land, on terms which are far more profitable and beneficial to them than would be possible in any other way. In the first place the rent charged to them was a sum sufficient to pay the interest on the purchase money of the land and one-half per cent. interest added as a sinking fund, in order to pay for the land over a period of eighty years. That was no hardship whatever on the applicant, because in those- days—unfortunately we shall not have them again—she simply paid 4¼per cent., 4 per cent, in others, which represented rent and sinking fund. He had the credit of the county council behind him in order to help him into his holding. If the holding lasts for eighty years, it can be kept on for another eighty; if the holder does not live for eighty years, his heirs may step into his shoes. There is a primâ facie right to occupy the land for another eighty years, because the Small Holdings Act says that he must show his need for the land and that he has applied for it. By his occupancy for eighty years, he has shown his earnestness. Therefore, it amounts to a perpetual tenancy without a man being encumbered by any capital outlay. Supposing he has been on the farm for twenty years. His wife may die. Probably she was the cheese maker or the butter maker. Then, perhaps, he wants to get away to his sons in Canada, America, or Australia. If he is saddled with a freehold he is tied and cannot go, but under the Small Holdings Act, which is entirely in the interest of the tenant, he can clear away the whole of his stock, sell his hay, give notice to the county council that he is going to give up the land, and he can go his way a free and unfettered man. For those and many other reasons, I say that the Government will be acting in the interests of the State and of the smallholder if they stick to their Clause.
    Sir B. STANIER: In view of the favourable consideration promised to my proposal, I bog to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendments made:
    In Sub-section (4), after the word "to" ["give preference to men who have served "], insert the word "suitable."
    After the word "served" [" men who have served in the forces of the Crown "], insert the words "at any time."
    After the word "to" [" and to women who are certified"], insert the word "suitable."— [Sir A. Boscawen.]

    CLAUSE 11. — (Extension of Powers of Councils in Relation to Land Acquired under Principal Act.)
    (1) Subject to the consent of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries in cases where their consent is required under this Section or under regulations made by the Board, a county council shall have power in any case where in the opinion of the council it is necessary or expedient so to do for the better carrying into effect of the principal Act—

    (b) to sell, exchange, or let any such land or any interest therein, subject, in the case of any sale or exchange, to the consent of the Board;

    Amendments made:
    In Subsection (1, b), after the word "sell" ["to sell, exchange, or let"], insert the word "mortgage."
    After the word "sale" ["any sale or exchange "], insert the word "mortgage."
    After the word "Board" ["to the consent of the Board "], insert the words
    "and in the case of a mortgage subject also to the consent of the Local Government Board." — [Sir F. Blake.]

    CLAUSE 12. — (Removal of Necessity for Content of Board After a Certain Period.)
    Notwithstanding any provision in the principal Act the consent of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall not after the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, be required for the acquisition, sale, exchange, letting, improvement, or management of land by a county council under the principal Act, except in cases where such consent is required by some enactment other than the principal Act.
    Amendment made:
    After the word "sale" ["acquisition, sale, exchange, letting "], insert the word "mortgage." — [Sir F. Blake.]

    CLAUSE 15. — (Power of County Council to Acquire Land for Letting to Parish Council for Allotments.)
    A county council may acquire land for the purpose of leasing it to the council of a parish within the county for the provision allotment and the provisions of the principal Act relating to the acquisition, and to proceedings in relation to the acquisition, of land for the purpose of providing small holdings shall apply to such acquisition as if the land were to be acquired for the provision of small holdings.
    Sir F. BLAKE: I beg to move, to leave out the words
    1256
    "for the purpose of leasing it to the council of a parish within the county for the provision of allotments, and,"
    and to insert instead thereof the words
    "and may appropriate land already acquired, for the purpose of providing allotments, either directly or by means of leasing such land to the council of a parish within the county, as the county council may think fit."
    This Amendment is intended to enable a county council to become a direct allotment authority, and I appeal to the enthusiasm which the hon. and gallant Member (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen) expressed for allotments at an earlier stage in the evening to assist me by supporting my proposal. It is to enable a county council to become a direct allotment authority, in view especially of the fact that it may be desirable to use as allotments rather than as small holdings any portion of an estate which has been purchased by them. In my own county, for instance, we have lately acquired a very large tract of land, some 1,500 to 1,800 acres. A portion of that land is much more suitable for allotments by virtue of the fact that it lies contiguous to a small hamlet or village where the -cottagers might become the allotment-holders. In all probability that portion of the land was at one time cut up into allotment*, and that it has gone back into a larger cultivation. It is desirable that it should be let as allotments rather than as small holdings. It is desirable also that the estate should be managed in one hand, and that it should not be necessary to hand over to the district council or the parish council that portion of the estate which is most suitable for allotments. The Amendment does not do away with the power of the county council to assign any portion of the land that it thinks desirable for allotments to the council of the parish, but it gives it an option in its own behalf to use the land to the very best advantage. I had an Amendment similar to this which was moved in Committee, and I was told then that it was not necessary to move the Amendment because the powers that I sought were already given by Amendments made in Clause 11. Perhaps that is the answer I shall get this afternoon.
    Sir E POLLOCK: To a portion of it.
    Sir F. BLAKE: I do not think it gives the direct power of acting as an allotment authority. I have looked at it, and with great respect I say it does not seem to do so. The land can be acquired for small holdings by the county council, but for the

    1257
    purposes of allotments it can be acquired only if the parish council is in default, and what I am seeking to do by this Amendment is to enlarge the powers of the county council go that it becomes the direct authority and may acquire land, not necessarily when a parish council is in default, but can acquire it when it is suitable for email holdings and allotments, and may acquire the land as a whole, and make use of it in such a. way as seems best. The Amendment has the approval of the County Councils Association. That association is very anxious that every means should be used to increase allotments.
    Major LANE-FOX: I beg to second the Amendment. The Solicitor-General says that the county councils have the power which is sought by this Amendment under Clause 11. If the hon. and learned Gentleman can show that under Clause 11 they are an allotting authority and do not merely become so in default, I shall be very glad to accept that statement and this Amendment will not be necessary. It does seem to me there is sometimes a want of enthusiasm on the part of the parish councils, and I think it is most necessary that the county councils should have more than default powers. Anybody who has had much to do with the creation of allotments, knows the difficulties there were in getting any real enthusiasm by some of the parish councils. If the county councils have not got those full powers, I think they should receive them.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: I hope I did not embarrass my hon. Friend who moved while he was addressing the House, and putting the purpose of his Amendment so clearly, but I did so because I thought he was endeavouring to make plain that his Amendment really had two purposes. He is anxious, as I understand, to see that there is abundant power in the county councils to use appropriated land that is already acquired both for the purpose of small holdings and for the purpose of allotments. If he will be good enough to follow me in the Bill, I think he will see that Clause 17, in all its provisions, does contain that power. The catch words are
    "Extension of powers of councils in relation to land acquired under principal Act."
    There is power under the principal Act to acquire land both for the purpose of small holdings and for the purpose of allotments. When the land has been acquired, there is, under Sub-section (I) (b), power
    1258
    "to sell, exchange, or let any such land or any interest therein,"
    and under paragraph (c) of the same Subsection
    "in a case where no power of appropriation is otherwise provided with the consent of the Board and the Local Government Board and subject to the repayment of any loan made for the purpose of the acquisition of the land or otherwise and the last-mentioned Board may impose, … (i) to appropriate for any purpose for which the council is authorised, to acquire land under the principal Act any land held by the council for other purposes. …"
    Therefore, so far as I can see—and I do not ask my hon. Friends to rely solely on me, and I am perfectly ready to have a matter pointed out if they think it is not right—the united powers of the Bill give abundant power to cover the first purpose of this Amendment—namely, to use land for the purpose of providing allotments.
    We come to the next point, and this is a point upon which we may have more divergent opinion, and that is,
    "providing allotments either directly or by means of leasing such land to the council of a parish."
    The meaning of that is, that the county council ought to be able in a, parish to let allotments to allotment-holders. There may, I think, be two views about that. I quite understand the point that you may find a recalcitrant parish council which has done very little, but that you should give in that area to the county council the right to go in and let to parochial allotment-holders is not the view we take. We think—and I believe the House will endorse this—that it is undesirable to give to county councils concurrent power with the parish council in the matter of the letting of allotments, which is really a local affair. I think we should all agree that if you can get the parish councils to let the allotments it is far better that it should be done by them, as they are fully cognisant of the allotment-holders, and know the local area and particular circumstances and needs of their parish. It would only be for the purpose of making good the absence of action or energy on the part of the parish council that any lion. Member, I think, would desire to bring in the county council into what are really parochial affairs, using the words geographically. It is far better to try and secure adequate control first by the Board, and the county councils, if necessary, and so through to the parish councils, and not to create what might be two discordant authorities, and to enable the county

    1259
    council to intervene in matters concerning a parish, and thus to have a dual control. It would be much better to get the parish council, by pressure put upon it, to do its duty, than to have the county council come in to the sphere where the parish council ought to reign. It is because we consider that the first part of the objects covered by the Amendment already exist in the Bill, and because we Believe that it would not be right to give the direct power sought in the second part that we are unable to accept the Amendment which has been thoroughly explained by the hon. Gentleman. We have sympathy with the purpose with which it is moved, and in saying what I do I am not to be taken as hostile to the intervention or energy of the county councils, but we think we ought to try and keep the two authorities in their proper spheres, and that to give this power to the county councils of letting direct would be unwise.
    Sir F. BLAKE: I am very much obliged for the great attention which the hon. and learned Gentleman has given to the Amendment, and for the clear way in which he has explained the exact position. I accept what he says. I understand we have some powers to appropriate land, and I can assure him that we had no idea in any way of interfering with the powers of the parish councils in this matter.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    CLAUSE 16. — (Power to Advance, Money to Certain Tenants of Small Holdings for Purchase of Stock, etc.)
    (1) Subject to the provisions of any regulations made by the Treasury, a county council may make or guarantee an advance by way of loan to any tenant of a small holding provided by the council under the principal Act, of such Bums as they think necessary for the purchase of live stock, fruit trees, seeds, fertilisers, and implements required for the purposes of the holding, and the making of such advances shall be included amongst the purposes for which the council may borrow under Section fifty-two of the principal Act.
    Amendment made: After the word "guarantee" ["or guarantee"], insert the words "or undertake to make or guarantee-"— [Sir A. Boscawen]
    Captain COOTE: I had given notice of an Amendment, after the word "Act" ["principal Act "], to insert the words
    "or to any applicant for a small holding who is, in the opinion of the council, likely to prove a satisfactory tenant,"
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    but I believe the object has been largely covered by a previous Amendment of the Parliamentary Secretary. I should, however, like some form of words so that not only tenants under the principal Act., but the men who apply and arc approved by the county councils for small holdings, should have the same financial advantages as tenants under the principal Act. It seems to me that that is a very crucial, part of the whole scheme of land settlement. No one, least of all myself, will ask that any man without experience should be given suolfnnancia.1 assistance to settle on the land, but where you have an ex-soldier —
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I do not think that I can accept the Amendment as it stands, but if he will agree to put in the words "or prospective tenant," after the word "tenant," I will meet him.
    Captain COOTE: I beg to move, after the word "tenant," to insert the words "or prospective tenant."
    Mr. L. SCOTT: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), after the word "guarantee," insert the words "or undertake to make or guarantee." — [Sir. A. Boscawen.]
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I beg to move, at the end, to insert
    " (3) The powers conferred by this Section shall be exercisable by the council or the Board only where, in the opinion if the council or the Board, as the case may be, the facilities for obtaining advances from a society on a cooperative basis are inadequate."
    This is one which 1 promised to move when a new Clause was withdrawn dealing with the question of co-operative societies making advances to tenants or prospective tenants for the purpose of stocking their small holdings. I pointed out that as a general rule the only practicable way of doing it would be by utilising our banking system and enabling county councils to guarantee overdrafts at banks, the tenant, of course, paying interest on the overdraft, but that where we could utilise the services of co-operative credit societies, of which a good many are springing up and which we all entirely approve of, we should do so. Therefore, I move the Amendment, which is to the effect that the councils shall only use this power of guaranteeing advances at banks

    1261
    where they are of opinion that facilities for obtaining advances from a co-operative society are inadequate. In all cases where adequate facilities exist we (hope to use them, but we must have other powers, because these facilities do not exist everywhere.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 19. — (Provisions as to Allotments.)
    (1) The council of any borough, urban district or parish may purchase any fruit trees, seeds, plants, fertilisers or implements required for the purposes of allotments cultivated as gardens, whether provided by the council or other wise, and sell any article so purchased to the cultivators, or, in the case of implements, allow their use, at a price or charge sufficient to cover the cost of purchase.

    (2) Rules made by a council under Section twenty-eight of the principal Act, shall, unless otherwise expressly provided, apply to an allotment, though held under a tenancy made before the rules come into operation.

    (3) Any person who by any act done without lawful authority or by negligence causes damage to any crops growing on an allotment cultivated as a garden, shall be liable on summary conviction to a, penalty not exceeding forty shillings, but this provision shall not apply unless notice of the provision is conspicuously displayed on or near the allotment.

    (4) Stamp duty shall not be payable on any lease or agreement for the letting of any allotment or garden, whether provided under the principal Act or otherwise, or on any duplicate or counterpart of any such lease or agreement where the rent does not exceed ten shillings per annum and no premium is paid.

    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words
    " The powers conferred by the preceding Subsection shall be, exercisable by a council only where in the opinion of the council the facilities for the purchase or hire of the articles therein referred to from a society on a co-operative basis are inadequate."
    Mr. ACLAND: This very nearly follows the wording of an Amendment in the name of some hon. Members, including myself, but it is slightly different. We moved it in the form of it being with the approval of the Board of Agriculture, and the Minister in charge, having considered it, has apparently preferred a rather different form, in which it would be the council itself which would decide whether the facilities offered by a society on a cooperative basis were adequate or not. I think probably we ought to accept the Amendment, but of course we find that in some cases councils are antagonistic to land being held or payment being undertaken by co-operative societies of allotment-holders, and when you come to look into it the reason is not because of
    1262
    any principle, but because the authorities are guided and rather led by their officials, who often have a financial interest in doing these things direct. For instance, the officials often have as a perquisite of their own the fees for making out the agreements of tenancy with the allotment-holders, and, of course, those fees have to be surrendered if the land is let to an allotment society which docs the reletting of the land itself. Similarly,1 can imagine an official who saw a chance of an extra £10 in salary by running this scheme taking the line that it would be better to do it direct with the council than with the co-operative society. But with all its disadvantages I think the Minister proposes this Amendment To meet the point of view that where there is an adequate society the work should be done by the society, and if he can say that they will watch the exercise of these powers carefully, to see that councils do not unreasonably withhold powers from co-operative societies, I think we ought to accept the Amendment.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I can assure my right hon. Friend that that is our intention. This will be a statutory duty placed upon councils that in all cases where they are satisfied that adequate facilities are provided by co-operative societies they are to make use of them, and we shall certainly impress upon them that that is their duty. Of course, if the council does not do it, there are means, such as raising the question in this House and so on, whereby pressure can be brought to bear.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Whitley): The Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Consett (Mr. A. Williams) — [In Sub-section (3), after the word "garden," to insert the words "or trespasses on such an allotment"]—is beyond the scope of the Bill.
    Sir K. WOOD: I would like to move to substitute ten pounds for forty shillings as the penalty for damage to crops on an allotment. The penalty in the Clause, I venture to suggest, is ridiculously small.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: If the hon. Member will make it five pounds I will accept that.
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in Subsection (3), to leave out the words "forty shillings," and to insert instead thereof the words "five pounds.''

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    The allotment-holders of the country have suffered a great deal from the negligence of people who have allowed animals to stray on their allotments. The hon. Member for Edmonton (Sir A. Warren) knows of a case, about which I have no doubt he can tell the House, where, at Edmonton, in a single night £40 worth of damage was done to allotments, and at Shrewsbury the other night allotments were damaged to the amount of £10; and, therefore, I feel that the Government are helping us in this matter.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: I accept the Amendment.
    Sir A. WARREN: I was very hopeful that the Government would have seen their way clear to accept the £10, because I am sure it is in the mind and in the heart of this House to protect the allotment-holders. My hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) referred to the constituency which I have the honour and privilege to represent, where very considerable damage has been done on more than one occasion. When the House remembers that many of these allotments are so situated, and the circumstances under which they are held are such that in cases they cannot be properly fenced in, and that they are open and more or less subject to the will and pleasure of persons who have no interest in allotments, and who do not take the reasonable precautions to prevent either their animals or their children straying upon the allotments, I think the House will desire to protect those allotment-holders from wanton damage and destruction. Having regard to the importance of the work that is performed by allotment-holders, I venture to regard them in many respects as public benefactors who assisted in a very grave crisis, and I am very hopeful that the circumstances of the country will be such as to allow of allotments going on for all time. Therefore, I think these men, and women too, who have done such excellent service should be protected to the very full. I should have been much more delighted had the Government been prepared to' accept the Amendment of £10, because I could recapitulate to this House cases in which these men—none of them men with any considerable means, who have put their little into their allotment, coupled with their vigour and labour—have had very
    1264
    serious damage done to their allotments, but as the Government have met us so far, I suppose we must be content.
    Sir E. POLLOCK: I have every sympathy with what my hon. Friend says. The reason I say £5is that I want to keep some measure of perspective with regard to other fines and other offences, and I think if the House allowed £10 it would be going out of perspective, and I think that £5 would meet the case.
    Mr. A. WILLIAMS: I had an Amendment down with regard to this matter, and you have just ruled it out of order, but I do wish to impress upon the House the great seriousness of this question of damage. I am very sorry that the Government have not put in a provision that a person who, without authority, trespasses on an allotment should be fined, without it being necessary—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: We cannot go back to that.
    Sir H. NIELD: I quite agree with the learned Solicitor-General about putting in a large penalty, having regard to other penalties prescribed in other cases. But very often people who pilfer and —pilfer extensively—from allotments are bands of gipsies, and they are generally pretty well able to pay when they are caught, but the difficulty is to find them. Therefore, a very strong reason exists for making this a substantial penalty if it can be done.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 22.— (Recoupment of Losses Incurred in Exercise of Powers under Principal Act.)
    (1) At the end of the financial year ending on the thirty-first day of March in the year nineteen hundred and twenty and of each of the six succeeding years the Board shall pay to a council of a county the loss (it any) which may be shown to the satisfaction of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to have be on reasonably or necessarily incurred by the council during the financial year in the exercise of their powers under the principal Act otherwise than in relation to smallholdings of less than one acre.

    Provided that, in calculating the amount of any loss incurred by a county council as aforesaid, there shall be included all sums paid by the council on account of loans obtained for the purpose of acquiring and adapting land for small holdings.

    (2) The Board shall, on the passing of this Act, pay to a council of a county the loss (if any) which may be shown to the satisfaction of the Board to have been reasonably or necessarily incurred by the council in the exercise of their powers under the principal Act during the period

    1265
    from the first day of January, nineteen hundred and eight to the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and nineteen.

    Provided that, in calculating the amount of any loss incurred by a county council as aforesaid, there shall be included all sums paid by the council prior to the first day of April, nineteen hundred and nineteen, on account of loans obtained for tile purpose of acquiring and adapting land for small holdings.

    (3) Until the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, a council of a county shall not incur expenditure under Section forty-nine of the principal Act (which relates to co-operative societies), without the consent of the Board.

    (4) Sub-section (4) of Section six and Section twenty-one of the principal Act, are hereby repealed.

    (5)This Section shall apply to losses incurred by the council of a county borough in the exercise of their powers under the principal Act in relation to small holdings.

    Amendments made:
    In Sub-section (1), leave out the words
    " Provided that, in calculating the amount of any loss incurred by a county council as aforesaid, there shall be included all sums paid by the council on account of loans obtained for the purpose of acquiring and adapting land for small holdings."
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words
    " Provided that, in calculating the amount of any loss incurred by a county council as afore-said, there shall be included all sums paid by the council prior to the first day of April, nineteen hundred and nineteen, on account of loans obtained for the purpose of acquiring and adapting land for small holdings."
    Insert, as a new Sub-section
    " (3) In calculating for the purposes of this Section the amount of any loss incurred by a council, there shall be included all sums paid by the council by way of interest, or sinking fund, or other loan charges on account of loans obtained for the purpose of acquiring and adapting land for small holdings, and the amount of the loss shall be determined under and in accordance with regulations made by the Board with the approval of the Treasury."— [sir A. Boscawen].
    Sir F. BLAKE: I beg to move, in Subsection (4), to leave out the words "are hereby repealed," and to insert instead thereof the words
    "shall cease to have effect during the period ending on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-six."
    The object of that is very obvious. The idea is that, instead of repealing these useful Sections, useful, at all events, and helpful to county councils, they should be in abeyance only, and should be able to be revived at the end of the septennial period. The county councils have recognised that they cannot expect to have the assistance and benefit that they get from these Sections during the period ending on the 31st March, 1926, because the Board
    1266
    pay only the deficits during that time; but we feel that it is by no means certain what the position of land is going to be at the end of the Septennial period. Prices may not have' fallen to such an extent as to enable county councils to purchase and to adapt and let land to smallholders at a rent which, while it is fair to the smallholders, will guard the council against loss. The powers contained in Sub-section (4) of Section 6 of the principal Act are not compulsory powers. It is not a duty upon the Board to make good losses; it is a power that they have to assist meritorious councils, who have done their best under difficult circumstances, who have acquired land sometimes under compulsion, very often have been told that they ought to acquire it because smallholders require land in their county, and the Board encourages them to do so by saying, "Well, you must make the best of it. You must find the best tenant you can, and you must see that the land is cultivated to the best possible advantage, and when it is all over, if there is a loss, we will come to your assistance and make it good." The object of the Amendment, so far as this Clause is concerned, is to enable the Board to do what it has done in the past at the end of the Septennial period to revive its benevolence on behalf of the county councils. Clause 21 enables the Board to pay the costs of the acquisition of land. I do not know why the county councils should be in any worse position at the close of the Septennial period than they have hitherto been. As things are it would certainly be very comforting to county councils if the hon. and gallant Gentleman could see his way to give us a little encouragement by saying that while it is quite right that these powers should be in abeyance for the period, that they could be possibly revived, at the goodwill of the Board, if the county council so desired.
    Mr. RAFFAN: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: With the best will in the world I cannot possibly accept this Amendment. It would entirely upset the whole bargain on which this Bill is based, which is this: that for the seven-year period we shall pay the deficit every year of the running of these small holdings, while at the end of the seventh year we write down the capital amount to the then value of the small holdings, and hand them over to the county councils on a self-supporting basis. That is an exceedingly good

    1267
    bargain for the county councils. A better bargain could not possibly be made. My hon. Friend wants us at the end of the seven years to revive our benevolence, as he say6. What does that mean? He is asking us to pay any loss the county councils ultimately incur. That would be putting a premium on very bad management by the county councils. We give them the small holdings on a self-supporting basic. If after that they make a loss it is entirely their own fault. Not only would this Amendment involve us in paying half the losses, but in the case of new acquisitions we should be required to pay the whole of the expenses as we do now.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    CLAUSE 23.— (Recoupment of Capital Losses.)
    (1) The value of the interest of the council of a county in all land acquired by the council under the principal Act, other than land acquired by the council acting in default of a district or parish council and small holdings of less than one acre, and vested in the council on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, shall be ascertained as on that date by a valuation made by one or more persons agreed on by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries and the council, or failing such agreement, appointed by the President of the Surveyors' Institution, and where, owing to the conditions of tenancy on which any such land is let or held, or to any rent-charge to which it is subject, or other wise, the value of the interest of the council in that land is a minus amount, that amount shall be brought into account for the purposes of the valuation aforesaid.

    The value of the interest of the council in such land as aforesaid shall for the purposes of this Section be deemed to be such as in the opinion of the person or persons by whom the value is ascertained will allow the value so ascertained, and all expenses which may be incurred by the council in relation to the land to be recouped out of the purchase money or rents which might reasonably be expected to be obtained if the land were sold or let by the council for small holdings or allotments, as the case may be.

    (2) There shall also at the same date be ascertained by agreement between the Board and the council, or in default of agreement by an accountant appointed by the Treasury, the amount of the total capital liabilities of the council at the same date in respect of the acquisition and adaptation of such land as aforesaid.

    Sir F. BLAKE: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "Act" ["under the principal Act"], to insert the words
    "after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and nineteen."
    I regret very much that, owing to the pace at which we conducted our proceedings in Committee, I omitted, unfortunately, to move this Amendment of mine
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    which was on the Paper. If it had been moved, we should have had the advantage of hearing the pros and cons thrashed out. One now takes the opportunity of moving it, and I do so rather in the hope of raising the question and getting an explanation from the lion, and gallant Gentleman as to exactly what will be the position of county councils in regard to their small holdings under the provisions contained in this Clause. The Clause is one which we talk of in the County Councils Association as a "pooling Clause." The county councils are, if not suspicious, yet a little alarmed as to-the position they are likely to find themselves in when this Clause is put into operation, because, if it was possible to say that the land would remain at the value fixed by the Board—the hon. and gallant Gentleman says he is going to write down all our losses and give us a clean bill of health and start us afresh— if it was possible to say that the value fixed by the Board in 1926 would remain, there would not be so much objection to the pooling principle. There is, however, a great possibility that the land will fall eventually below the figure named, and it does not seem to be unreasonable that county councils who have been prudent and judicious in their purchases, and who have a bit, and sometimes a good bit, in hand,, should be allowed to keep that bit.
    The effect of this Amendment, as it appears now, is to separate the two kinds of small holdings, those acquired under the principal Act and those acquired under the operations of this Act. It is to apply this Clause to the one, that is to say, to the small holdings acquired under this Act, and to leave the county councils in possession of the benefits—sand most of them have benefits—that is really the cause of this Amendment being put down—sthat is to say, the capital appreciation of the land—which can be pointed out by nearly every county council. So far as the septennial period is concerned, to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has alluded,, the Board has treated us fairly. Everything is going to be cleared off. But we are afraid of the operation of this Clause so far as it applies to the small holdings acquired under the operations of the late Act up to 31st March of this year. With the object rather of obtaining some information and some explanation from the hon. and gallant Gentleman, I move this.

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    Amendment. It is a matter upon which those for whom I am speaking, the county councils, feel very strongly; and I hope the hon. and gallant Gentlemen will be able to give us satisfactory assurances.
    Captain COOTE: I beg to second the Amendment. Certain county councils with which I am acquainted feel very strongly that they will not reap the reward of what they have done on this question, and this proposal does not encourage them to practise economy during the septennial period. If you are going to sweep away these boards, it may be taken as a precedent for similar conduct on some future occasion. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to meet this Amendment if he cannot accept it in some way or other, because I have a similar Amendment on the Paper, and in that ease I should not move it.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I am sorry that 1 cannot accept this Amendment. It was not moved during the Committee stage, and it has been discussed with the county councils more than once. The effect of the Amendment would be to exclude from this financial arrangement the small holdings which had been provided before this Bill came into operation. The arrangement is, that we take all small holdings provided by county councils from 1908 to 1926. We pool them all together, and we pay the losses on them, and then value them and hand them back upon a self-supporting basis. If we are to do the thing in a businesslike manner, we must take all the small holdings, and it would cause confusion if you had one set working on one system and another on a different system, it would cause a complication of accounts, and 1 cannot for the life of me see what benefit the councils will obtain by it. Some hon. Members say there are councils who have been provident and made a success, while others have failed. When they have made a success, it must be remembered they had great assistance from the State all along in order that they might make a success. We paid the cost of acquisition and the legal expenses, and where there has been a failure we have already paid, at least, half of the annual losses. The only sensible plan is to pool the whole lot and regard the counties as our agents from 1908, and put the thing on a sound financial basis, and hand them back to the councils to run on their own for the future. The councils are not going to gain very much if they get their pre-war holdings excluded, because a number of them may require additional
    1270
    equipment. If they are m the same basket with the present smallholders, the additional equipment will be done at the Board's expense, and a great many of them, will require it.
    Sir F. BLAKE: The new ones?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: No, the old ones will require additional equipment. If they come in under this Bill any additional equipment will be found at the Board's expense during the seven-year period. If they do not come in, they will find any additional equipment out of the rates, and they will not gain by it. I suggest to my hon. Friends that I think they are really making a mistake from the point of view of the county councils. From our point of view, to have two separate sets of small holdings running on a different system would be exceedingly confusing. I hope, therefore, having regard to the very fair offer we have made, my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment.
    Amendment negatived.

    CLAUSE 24.— (Provisions as to Land Taken under the Defence, of the Realm Regulations.)
    (1) For removing doubts it is hereby declared that Section one of the Defence of the Realm(Acquisition of Land) Act, 191.6, applies to land of which possession has been taken by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under the powers conferred by Regulations 2 L and 2M of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, arid that the Board are entitled whilst in possession of the land, after the termination of the present War, to exorcise in relation thereto any of the? Powers conferred by those Regulations for such term and subject to such conditions as are mentioned in the said Act.

    (2) Where at the termination of the present War a local authority is exercising powers under the said Regulation 2 L in respect of land of which the local authority is owner or occupier, the local authority may continue to exercise those powers in relation to that land until the expiration of one year from the termination of the present War, and the provisions of Sub-section (6) of the said Regulation shall apply accordingly.

    Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "possession, "insert the words
    "by themselves or by any person deriving title under them."— [Sir A. Boscawen.]
    9.0 P.M.
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words
    "Notwithstanding any of the provisions of the Defence of the Realm Regulations or the Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Act, l916, land held for allotments shall continue to be held until it is shown to the satisfaction of the local authorities that the same is required for immediate public building or other public purposes provided that where land is so required

    1271
    unless the Board of Agriculture is satisfied that other suitable land has been provided, six months' previous notice in writing shall be given to the tenant."
    I put down a new Clause which dealt with the question of the security of tenure of the allotment-holders who acquired their holdings under the Defence of the Realm Act or the Acquisition of Land Act, 1916, and I was informed by Mr. SPEAKER that I could move it on Clause 21. This raises the question which has been a source of great anxiety to these particular allotment-holders as to the position in which they stand to-day. My hon. Friend has done -a great deal in this Bill to secure land for certain allotments, and also to make provision for securing land in future. But, subject to any explanation he may give, I say that the present position of these allotment-holders who came to the rescue of the nation at a very critical period is a very difficult and a very uncertain one to-day. As I understand it, these allotment-holders may be dispossessed at any time, and they are very much disappointed that apparently nothing has been done for them in connection with this important measure. They are prepared to give up these allotments for any national purpose, such as the Government Housing scheme, or matters of that sort, and they appreciate Clause 2 of the Bill, to which my hon. and gallant Friend attaches a great deal of importance.
    They feel that there is no reason why under this particular measure those Regulations under the Defence of the Realm Act should not be incorporated in this measure. All over the country these particular allotment-holders are receiving notices to quit. In many cases they are being evicted, and we feel that the Board should do a great deal in this connection by giving them some security of tenure under this particular Bill. At the present moment their tenure largely depends upon circulars which have been sent out quite properly with a great deal of promptitude by the Board, but I think the hon. and gallant Member must feel that in this particular connection the allotment-holders are certainly entitled to a great deal more security than they have at the present moment. Only within the last few days some hundreds of allotment-holders in different parts of the country have received notice to quit, and I hope if this Amendment is not accepted at any rate the
    1272
    hon. and gallant Gentleman should make some statement which will allay a great deal of the justifiable anxiety undoubtedly exercising the minds of a large number of these men who have done a great deal in very critical times.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This, I understand, is a proposal that stood in the name of the hon. Member in the form of a new Clause, and he suggests that it should now come as a new Sub-section to this Clause. Would it not necessitate the omission of Sub-section (2) as it stands?
    Sir K. WOOD: I am moving a further Amendment to Sub-section (2). It was the suggestion of Mr. Speaker that it should be moved in this particular way.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: My only point was whether Sub-section (2) would have to- be left out.
    Mr. ACLAND: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Major LLOYD-GREAME: This Amendment is really about, the most important with which we have to deal. It goes to the root of the whole matter as it affects allotments. Let me advance, very shortly, three propositions showing why the Government should meet us. I need not labour the importance of allotments. Some of us are in doubt as to what the ultimate agricultural policy of the Government is going to be, and no doubt there will be many discussions as to what is an economic form of holding; but, whatever policy they may ultimately adopt, it is certain that an allotment is at all times and in all places an economic holding, enabling the holder to cultivate food for himself and his family. 1 need not labour, either, the direct benefit to food production, nor the enormous interest which has been added to the lives of hundreds of thousands of people by the development of allotments. Although the direct need for food production, which was urged upon people and led many to develop these allotments, has. to some extent, though not entirely, passed, yet the keenness of these people to go on with their allotments remains, and I hope will remain for many years to come. It is not likely to decrease in view of the very high prices of food which are ruling at the present time. That is a. difficult problem with which a Select Committee has been appointed to deal. It may be difficult to arrive at an adequate solution by the control of prices, but a simple and great solu-

    1273
    tion which does not require an Act of Parliament or an Order in Council is to be found in an increase in the number of allotments, enabling a greater number of people to grow their own garden produce, thereby leaving a greater amount available for sale and leading to a consequent lowering of prices all round.
    I would point out one other thing. Under the Housing Act, the Government have rightly insisted that houses are to be built eight and twelve to the acre for the express purpose that each house may have a garden something in the nature of an allotment. You cannot give a new house and a new garden to everybody, and that is all the more reason for continuing to those who cannot have their actual housing improved the amenity of a garden allotment such as that which they have grown to enjoy. This proposal is the direct complement of the Government's housing scheme, and I feel sure that the Government will do their best to meet us. In the first place, it preserves the allotments, unless the land is required for some essential purpose. There may not have been a direct pledge—I do not want to put it too high—but there certainly was in the minds of the allotment-holders and in the minds of many hon. Members an understanding that the Government would give very favourable consideration to the continuation of these allotments. The Amendment, therefore, goes in the first place to preserve the allotments, and in the second place, it puts upon the local authorities the onus of providing alternative allotments where in the course of building development holders are turned out of their allotments. I commend the Amendment and the whole spirit of it to the Government as being a part of their housing and reconstruction programme.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I sincerely sympathise with the object of this Amendment, as stated by both my hon. Friend behind me (Sir K. Wood) and by the last speaker (Major Lloyd-Greame). No one is a more enthusiastic supporter of allotments than I am. I realise what a splendid work, both from the point of view of food production and from the point of view of establishing a most interesting and healthy occupation, has been done in connection with allotments during the War. The extension of allotments is an excellent thing, and ought to be encouraged by the Government and by public bodies in every possible way. "We have taken certain steps to encourage them. I do not think that
    1274
    they have been mentioned, or that hon. Members who have spoken realise what has been done. By the Defence of the Realm Acquisition of Land Act the Board are able to retain possession of the land which they have acquired for the purpose of allotments for two years after the end of the War—namely, two years from the present time, and for an additional three years with the consent of the Railway Commissioners. It is our intention, subject to certain limitations, to exercise those powers to the fullest possible extent, because we do not want to turn out allotment-holders except in cases where it is absolutely necessary. Of course, cases will arise. There is the case of housing, a most important matter. When we are satisfied that land is urgently required for building, and when building is going to take place at once, then we are bound to vacate the land, because, however much we may be in favour of allotments, and however much we may appreciate the value of allotments, we cannot allow a fringe of allotments round a town to block the natural development of that town, especially where houses are very scarce and are urgently needed.
    Then there is another class of case in which we are bound to allow the allotments to be given up. I do not think hon. Members realise precisely what happened during the War, and what kind of land was taken. Not only was building land taken, but land which but for the War would have been used for other beneficial purposes was also taken. Those purposes have now come again into existence. A great deal of the land belonged to- cricket and football clubs. During the War these games were stopped to a large extent, and it was reasonably right and proper that the land should be used for food production. But it would be most unreasonable, and it would not be in the public interest, that these recreations and sports should be stopped indefinitely as they would be under this Amendment. We feel that that land should revert to the purposes from which it was diverted temporarily— very often at an absolutely nominal rent. Therefore we propose to use the powers we have under the Defence of the Realm acquisition of Land Act to the fullest extent, only in cases where such matters as buildings or other public objects are urgently required, thereby compelling the-plot-holders to leave; or in the other cases where land intended for other objects can only be retained by paying enormous sums

    1275
    in compensation. Subject to these limitations, we intend to use the powers we have got now to the fullest extent. I think that is the best thing we can do.
    But my hon. Friend's Amendment goes beyond that. It is too wide a proposal. It says that the land is to be retained indefinitely unless it is wanted for public utility purposes. I do not think it is possible to do that. The amount of compensation would be enormous in many cases, and I think we have ample powers at present under the Defence of the Realm Regulations to do all that is required. There is another point. My hon. Friend said we should put the onus of providing other land where plot-holders are necessarily dispossessed on the public authority. But it is there now. It is the duty of the parish or district or borough council, or whatever the allotment authority is, to provide other land. And what I suggest to the House is this, that it is far more important we should get the local authorities to use fully the powers that they have at the present time than that we should give them additional powers which very probably they would not use any more than the powers they now possess. I think, therefore, having regard to the fact that we have got large powers already to keep the land we took under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, secondly, that the onus now lies on the local authority, and thirdly, that under this Bill the local authorities will have greatly increased facilities for getting other lands much more -expeditiously and at much less cost, the House would hardly wish that this Amendment should be pressed, although I candidly say that I sympathise with the object which the hon. Member has in view.
    Mr. ACLAND: I could speak for hours in support of this Amendment, but I do not intend to" do so, because the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill has, with myself and one other hon. Member, been continuously in this Chamber since half-past three this afternoon. I originally framed these words some two years ago as defining a policy which it was reasonable for allotment-holders to try and impress upon the Government, with a view to getting security in their holdings. The policy has, in fact, been adopted unanimously by allotment-holders, and has always met with their complete approval. I am, therefore, rather sorry that the Minister in charge of the Bill has not ben able to go further in accepting the Amend-
    1276
    ment. He tells us—sand it is quite true—sthat the Board of Agriculture is doing its best in this matter. No doubt that is so. But the allotment-holders do attach a very great deal of importance to not being turned out of the land which has been taken until after a public local inquiry, and until the local authorities responsible are really convinced that the land is wanted for some public purpose. I am not quite sure that it is right to turn out allotment-holders unless a purpose of public utility is served thereby. In the second part of the Clause is stated the minimum which the allotment - holders think will give them anything like security in the land they now have. They say that unless other suitable land is provided they shall have six months' notice in writing before they arc required to relinquish their holdings. My hon. and gallant Friend did not deal with that part of the Amendment. I would ask him to consider that. I do not suggest lie should give an an immediate answer. But perhaps in another place something might be done in regard to it. Where there is no earthly chance for a man to get another allotment he certainly ought to have six months' notice in order that he may make the best of the situation. Immediate dispossession should imply that there is some other suitable land available to enable him to carry on the praiseworthy activities he took on during the War. This is, I repeat, a matter to which the allotment-holders attach very great importance. Considering the circumstances of the day, it would, I think, be unfair to take a snap Division against the Government, but I hope this matter will receive further consideration.
    Mr. NEWBOULD: I wish to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member who moved this Amendment, but I am not at all sure it covers one or two cases of which I would like to give specific instances. I am speaking particularly of the Wanstead Flat allotment - holders. This is part of Epping Forest, and under-the control of the Epping Forest Commissioners according to Act of Parliament. This particular fringe of the Forest, before it was put to its present purposes, was of little use or value in any shape or form. It was a pure swamp, but it was taken possession of by these allotment-holders in 1917, and they have not yet had an opportunity of reaping any reward or return for the labour and the considerable amount of money which they have put into

    1277
    it. I was hoping that this Amendment would at least have given them two or, perhaps, five more years, in order to get some reward for their exertions. I am afraid that, unless the Amendment is accepted, the notice they have already received to quit in December of this year will operate; I am not sure also whether under the Clauses of this Bill the Epping Forest Commissioners would not be compelled to enforce their notice. I am hoping, if this Amendment is accepted, that they will have at least this further period of two years. I should like to have some statement from the Parliamentary Secretary on the matter. I should be content if the Board of Agriculture have the power to give the further two years, but, if they have not, I hope this Amendment will provide for it.
    Mr. T. DAVIES: I have had more pressure put upon me to back up various Amendments to the Allotments Act than I have had on anything else since 1 came into this House. I can give concrete cases showing how hardly this works. In Cirencester, the town where I live, and in the district of Dorsetshire, which I know fairly well, it has happened over and over again during the War that some piece of land has been taken which was very rough. The allotment-holders, to my certain knowledge, have worked there on Sundays and at night by moonlight to remove the rough stones, and in some cases have actually dug up an old Roman road in order to make a good allotment. That is one ease. In the second case, in the next field, they have turned up new grass and converted it into an allotment. When you turn up new turf and plant it as an allotment you do not get a crop off the first year, because in nine cases out of ten the ground is infested with wireworm, which eats away the greater part of the crop, whether it be potatoes or carrots. In our part of the country many men who did not go to the War took up a good deal of this new land, and actually spent their time cultivating it for the absent soldiers. It is very hard, after they have cultivated this land, rolled it, gas-limed it and tried their level best to get rid of the wire-worm by planting it with carrots and other vegetables, and then digging them up and destroying the wire-worm, that no sooner do the soldiers come back than they find, after all this labour and expense has been given to the land, that they are asked to give it up. I suggest to the Board of Agriculture that one way out of the
    1278
    difficulty would be to say that for a period of three years—L think that will satisfy most of our people—those who are in possession of these allotments shall hold them until the land is wanted definitely for some public purpose, such as building or drainage. That will meet their just demands. Otherwise, if another occasion arises on which we want to develop allotments in face of a public danger, we shall not get the men who have put their backs into this to put their backs into it again. It will be a bad object lesson if, after all their labours during the last two or three years, they are turned out without getting any result. I want to keep faith with the public. I have had more pressure put upon me from all parts of my huge Constituency on this particular matter than on anything else. I hope the Government will see their way clear to making the period at least three years.
    Sir K. WOOD: Having consulted one or two of my hon. Friends I feel that we must on this occasion rely on the Parliamentary Secretary carrying out his pledges, as I feel sure ho can do, and putting into vigorous application the undertakings he has given. I feel that he has been in the House for a very long time in circumstances somewhat depressing to him, and I hope my hon. Friends will see their way to allow this Amendment to be withdrawn in view of the undertakings that have been given. Therefore, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]
    Sir A. WARREN: The appeal made by my hon. Friend (Sir K. Wood) places me in a somewhat difficult position, because I was strongly under the impression that we were going to persist in this very reasonable Amendment. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will appreciate that in respect to a very large number of allotments have they not been taken up on what might be termed agricultural land. I know something of the case quoted by the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Newbould) in respect to the Wansted Flats allotments. I know the enormous work that has been put into that very unsatisfactory soil since 1917. I know of a large number of other cases in the East End of London which would interest the Minister of Health in connection with housing and the shortage of bricks, where vast quantities of bricks have been the first crop from the allotments and where there has been a most prolific output of

    1279
    tin cans and other refuse as the first instalment that has rewarded the labour of persistent and assiduous workers on these allotments where it has taken a vast amount of labour, patience, perseverance and time to bring the land into anything like a condition where they could expect a moderate return. That has been happening all around London. On the borders of Greater London a vast effort has been made. I feel that some security should be given to these men by some reasonable prolongation of the time in order that they might reap some little reward for their labours. The experience of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. T. Davies), who said that in all his experience of this House he had been more bombarded by allotment-holders than by any other section of the community, is one which could be asserted by a large number of hon. Members with equal truth. We have had correspondence, we have had deputations, the very able officials of the Allotment-Holders Association have come before us and made their requests and preferred their claims. It is with a view to carrying out all that we owe to allotment-holders in respect of their patriotism, the food production of this country and the physical development of many of these men, that we ask for this Amendment. Thousands of men who never before had smelt virgin soil and who knew nothing of mother earth have been digging and delving for long months in the soil. That has created a new interest and' given them a new outlook on life, in addition to materially improving their physical condition. All they ask for now is some reasonable time wherein to reap the reward of all this labour. The Parliamentary Secretary must be sympathetically moved by this reasonable request. Therefore I am somewhat embarrassed when the hon. Member who moved the Amendment desires to withdraw it. We hoped that we should find some acquiescence on the part of the Board of Agriculture which would have met the requirements of these men and gone a long way to have kept them in good humour. One of the principal duties of this House, of Members of this House, and of men who lead other men, is to meet the reasonable demands of. men and keep them in as good humour as possible until we have got through a very trying and difficult period. I felt it was incumbent upon me, as representing a consti-
    1280
    tuency wherein there are a huge number of allotment-holders, to ask the House to appreciate the fact that there is an earnest desire on the part of these men that that hope should be reasonably met.
    Sir H. NIELD: I desire to associate myself with everything that has been said from the point of view of the allotment-holders. In every district round London a complete transformation has taken place. Nothing struck me more in going across Hampstead Heath the other day than the complete transformation it is undergone. That, I believe, should be the main principle upon which the Government should go—the continuation of these allotments in the possession of those who are at present cultivating them to the great advantage of themselves and of the nation. I know of no more scandalous instance of profiteering of the worst kind than is going on at present in green vegetables. In my own district I am told by a demobilised soldier on his return home that he is being charged 3s. —
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: If we discuss greengrocery it will take a very long time.
    Sir H. NIELD: I leave it there. I hope my shot will go home to tie greengrocers or the intermediaries. But I have a profound distrust of bureaucracy. I have-said that in every part of this building, and I desire to see an absolute statutory limitation and not to leave it to the will of the Board of Agriculture, however benevolently disposed it may be to the present arrangement. Ministers come and Ministers go, and, although this is supposed to be a temporary measure, I think the country will demand a continuance of the cultivation, of allotments, possibly for such a time that it will net be possible to-prophesy who will be the Minister in charge. Therefore, 1 hope in another place some alteration will foe made to-stiffen up and take it out of the power of the bureaucracy to determine the future policy with regard to allotment-holders, and that they may have some reasonable assurance that, unless for specific public reasons of the most urgent character, they shall not be disturbed so long as the need continues for their cultivation.
    Mr. GRUNDY: I wish to associate myself with the appeal that has been, made to the hon. and gallant Gentleman to give some greater security of tenure to the

    1281
    allotment-holders. I am speaking on behalf of some 2,000 of them in my own town. They have formed their own allotment societies, and they have also formed a federation of allotment societies, and the whole tenour of "their complaint is the insecurity of their tenure. I have seen some allotments where they have taken cartloads of stones away, and after doing this work they feel it is very unfair that they should be turned away on the very short notice that has been given to some of them. They should be given some guarantee that they are going to have some reward for the toil they have put into their allotments. I have an allotment, and have done some of this hard work, and have gone home with many blisters on my hands. I am sure it is in the interests of the country that you should give these men some definite assurance Some of the land that has been taken will have to be used for building and for necessry local improvements, but you ought to give them the security that before they are removed they shall be provided with some other allotment. This movement has had an educative effect on hundreds of workmen, who now take a teal delight in their garden. They hold local shows, where prizes are given for the best allotment, and there are also federation shows, where the whole of the allotments in a certain area show their produce, and you have created a desire on their part to excel and have brought about a very humanising effect on the men. They did this work in the hour of the country's need from a patriotic point of view. You have created a love for the work. It forms a great part in their conversation. You have taught them to spend their time more beneficially than might have been the case. It is as well that the country should be kept in a good humour, and, in addition, it is only just to these men. It has been difficult; previously to have a yard of land to cultivate. Until the time comes when houses are surrounded by their own gardens, 1 hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will be able to give some assurance to the allotment-holders.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I would appeal to the House to come to a decision. I have already pointed out that we are going to use the powers we have now under the Defence of tine Realm (Acquisition of Land) Act to the fullest possible exent. Some plot-holders must be turned out, be
    1282
    cause we cannot block the development of towns and houses for the sake of allotment-holders. I have also said that it is the duty of the local allotment authorities to provide allotments. Under this Bill we give them greatly increased powers for doing so. My hon. Friend (Sir Kingsley Wood) has an Amendment in respect of local authorities who have provided public parks for allotments for certain periods to enable them to extend that period. In the Bill the period is one year, but I am prepared to accept this Amendment to extend the period to two years. I can assure the House that in every possible way the Board is endeavouring to make securities for these people. But we cannot accept this Amendment. It goes too far. I think hon. Members who realise what the Board is doing are aware that we have saved allotment-holders in hundreds of case while the land has not been acquired publicly but by private treaty. Under these circumstances I hope the Amendment will not be pressed, but if it is, I trust we shall come to a decision as soon as possible.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words
    "until the expiration of one year from the termination of the present War."
    This deals with allotment-holders in the public parks. The hon. Member has expressed his intention of increasing that period to two years, arid while I am bound to say that that does meet the period which, has been extended to the allotment-holders in the London parks in common, with other hon. Members I should like to see the allotment-holders in the London parks have a tenure much longer than that. However, in this matter we have to come to some agreement, and for that purpose I am willing to accept the two years.
    Mr. ACLAND: I beg to second the Amendment. As one of those in whose name the Amendment stands I think we should do well to withdraw it and accept the two years which have been offered.
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment made: Leave out the words "one year," and insert instead thereof the words "two years." — [Sir Kingsley Wood.]

    SECOND SCHEDULE

    MINOR AMENDMENTS OF PRINCIPAL ACT

    Provision of the Principal Act to be amended.

    Amendment.

    Section 23

    …

    In Sub-section (1) the words "for the labouring population" and "belonging to the labouring population" and the words from "and that such allotments cannot" to "applicants for the same" shall be omitted. Sub-section (3) shall be omitted.

    Section 24

    …

    In Sub-section (1) after the word "allotments" there shall be added the words '" by any person or by an association to which allotments may be let under this Act," and the words "(other than boroughs)" shall be omitted.

    Section 27

    …

    In Sub-section (1) after the words "quarter's rent" there shall be added the words "(except where the yearly rent is twenty shillings or less)." At the end of Sub-section (4) there shall be inserted the words "except with the consent of the council."

    Section 31

    …

    The whole Section shall be omitted.

    Section 34

    …

    In Sub-section (1) the word "labouring" shall be omitted.

    Section 42

    …

    In Sub-section (1) for the words "attaching to small holdings or allotments provided by the council "there shall be substituted the words" letting to tenants of small holdings and allotments, "and in Sub-section (2) for the words "attached to the" there shall be substituted the words "let to tenants of."

    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I beg to move, at the beginning, to insert

    Section 9

    …

    In paragraph (b) of sub-section (2), after the word "let,'' there shall be inserted the word's ''or sell."

    This Amendment and the following Amendments are designed to carry out an undertaking which I gave to my right hon. Friend (Mr. Acland) on the Committee stage, that there should be power to sell allotments just as there is power to sell email holdings.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made: At the end of the paragraph beginning' Section 24 "insert the words" In Sub-section (4), the words 'other than the boroughs' shall be omitted."
    At the end of paragraph beginning "Section 27" insert the words
    "In Sub-section (6), after the words 'system Or,' there shall be inserted the words 'of letting or setting.' "—."[Sir A. Boscawen.]
    Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move to leave out the words "Section 31." I think this is a valuable Section to retain.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I will accept that.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I beg to move "That the Bill, as amended, be recommitted to a Committte of the Whole House in respect of new Clause, 'Compensation to Labourers,' " and also in respect of an Amendment to Schedule 2.
    1284
    These two Amendments may possibly involve a charge, and that is the reason why I move the recommittal of the Bill. With respect to the Amendment to the Schedule, we undertook in Committee to say that there should be some more effective way of compensating labourers who by reason of the acquisition of land by councils for small holdings lost their employment. At the present time the county council may compensate labourers. I propose that in future they shall compensate labourers. That will be the effect of the Amendment to the Schedule. In regard to the new Clause, at the present time the Board is bound to compensate labourers dispossessed through the purchase of land for the purpose of small holdings colonies, but they are not bound to do so under the Bill if the land is acquired for the purpose of small holdings. The object of the new Clause is to make it necessary for the Board to compensate labourers when land is bought for small holdings just as they have now to compensate them if the land if bought for farm colonies.
    Mr. ACLAND: I am very glad that the hon Member has brought this forward. Anybody who knows of the possible hardships to labourers will be grateful to him, and I hope the House will be willing that the Bill should be recommitted for these purposes.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill accordingly considered in Committee, on recommittal.

    NEW CLAUSE. — (Compensation to Labourers.)
    In any case of acquisition of land by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under this Act, Subsection (5)of Section one of the Small Holding Colonies Act, 1916 (which relates to compensation to labourers) shall apply with the substitution of references to this Act for references to that Act. — [Sir A. Boscawen.]
    Brought up, and read the first and second time, and added to the Bill.
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I beg to move, in Schedule 2, at the end of paragraph on "Section 42," to insert

    Section 43

    …

    for the word "may" there shall be I substituted the word "shall."

    Amendment agreed to.
    Bill reported.
    As amended (on recommittal), considered.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That the Bill be now read the third time."— [Sir A. Boscawen.]
    (King's Consent and Prince of Wales' consent signified.)
    Mr. ACLAND: I desire to express, on behalf of the House, our congratulations to the Minister in charge of the Bill on the way in which he has conducted the Bill both in Committee upstairs and in the Report stage. He has shown the very greatest patience and good temper in listening to all we had to say, and very great knowledge of the subject, which is a complicated subject, as this procedure is largely by reference to a principal Act. which is no small matter to have to deal with. The hon. Gentleman has also shown great powers of endurance, as he has, to my knowledge, been sitting on that bench since three o'clock this afternoon, because I have been sitting opposite to him all the time, and seen that he has not gone away. Therefore I think the House would like to join with me in congratulating him.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.

  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE BILL.
  Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the third time, and passed.

  HOUSING AND TOWN PLANNING BILL.
  Lords Amendments considered.
  10.0 P.M.
  The MINISTER OF HEALTH (Dr. Addison): Perhaps it would ix: to the convenience of the House if I mad,: a general statement. The Amendments which are on the. Paper are, generally speaking, Amendments with which I shall ask the House to agree, because a considerable number of them are drafting Amendments, which it was necessary to get inserted in the Bill in the House of Lords, and several others which have been moved in their Lordships House were the subject of discussion, and, I think everyone will agree, represent improvements in the Bill. There are three or four others which, I have no doubt, will give rise to discussion. I may say, however, that the Amendments in the first page of the Paper I shall ask the House to accept. The Amendments on page 4 of the Bill may lye thought to lead to some delay in the acceleration of schemes, but in view of the financial considerations involved they are thoroughly reasonable. We do not propose to object to the Amendments on pages two and three, which are practically all drafting Amendments except the one at the bottom of page 2 and the one on page 3, which latter specially relates to the West Riding of Yorkshire and really rounds off the provisions of the Hill. Most of the others are drafting Amendments. It is not until we come to page 5 that I shall ask the House to take exception to their Lordships Amendments. The Amendment on page 4 of the Paper, page 12 of the original Bill, were those that were discussed at considerable length on Report stage, and carry out the general understanding that was arrived at in this House. The Amendment on page 5 of the Paper, page 16, line 2, I shall ask the House, on the grounds stated, when we come to it, to disagree with, and I shall invite the House to make some alterations in the phraseology of the Amendment relating to materials on page 17, line 8, on page 5 of the Paper, because it would be imposing a statutory condition on a Government Department for all time, which is not reasonable or intended. On page 7 of the Paper there is a further Amendment, under the heading page 2, line 29, and the following under line 31, which I shall ask the House to disagree with. The others

  1287
  are in the main drafting Amendments, except that on page 6, the Amendment relating to page 21, which somewhat alters the Bill as it left the House of Commons, so that when a private person wishes to set aside certain covenants and the local authority is of opinion that it is desirable in the making of certain alterations that these covenants should be altered in the interests of housing, the consent of the County Court should be required in that case. It concerns covenants between two individuals, and I think that it is quite right that the County Court should be applied to there. The Amendment which appears at some length on page 8 is really inserted to meet points raised by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. I have also a command from His Majesty that His Majesty, having been informed of the purport of this Amendment, gives his consent so far as His Majesty's interests are concerned that the House may do therein as they think fit. When we come to page 10 there is an Amendment leaving out Clause 41 which I shall ask the House to differ, and I shall ask them to reinsert the Clause. But in order to meet what we think was fair criticism, and which influenced a good many of their Lordships, we propose to ask the House to reinstate the Clause with a slight modification, and an indication, which was really intended, that the town-planning schemes which may be required shall be in a simpler form than those required by the Statute at the present time. I think that that modification should meet a great deal of the objection which was urged against the Clause. With those exceptions I do not propose to take any exception to their Lordships Amendment. From some statements which have appeared in the Press there appears to be a mistaken impression with regard to some of their Lordships Amendments to the Bill, but I think that no Bill could have received more fair and sympathetic treatment.

  HOUSING AND TOWN PLANNING BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.— (Duty of Local Authority to Prepare Housing Schemes.)
    (3) The Local Government Board may approve any such scheme or any part thereof "without modification or subject to such modifications as they may think fit, and the scheme or part thereof when so approved shall be binding on the local authority; but if the Board consider the scheme inadequate they may refuse to approve the scheme and require the authority to prepare and submit to them an adequate scheme
    1288
    within such time as they may fix, or they may approve the scheme subject to the condition that the authority prepare and submit to them a further scheme within such time as they may fix.

    (5) Where the local authorities concerned or the Local Government Board are of opinion that a scheme should be made affecting the areas of two or more local authorities, such a scheme shall be prepared by the local authorities jointly and may provide for joint action being taken by those local authorities and for the apportiontionment amongst the authorities of any expenses incurred in carrying the scheme into effect.

    (6) Local authorities in preparing, and the Local Government Board in approving, schemes shall have regard to any proposals by other bodies and persons to provide housing accommodation.

    Lords Amendments:
    In Sub-section (3), after the word
    "scheme" ["they may approve the scheme subject to "], insert the words "or part thereof." —Agreed to.
    At the end of Sub-section (3) insert the words
    "Provided that local authorities in preparing, and the Local Government Bon id in approving, any scheme shall take in to account, and, so far as possible, preserve existing elections of architectural, historic, or artistic interest, and shall have regard to the natural amenities of the locality, and in order to secure that the houses proposed to be built under the scheme shall be of a suitable architecture, and that the natural amenities of the locality shall not be unnecessarily injured, the Local Government Board may. in any case where it appears to them that the character of the locality renders such a course expedient, require as a condition of their approval the employment by the "deal authority of an architect to be selected from a panel of architects nominated by the Royal Institute of British Architects.
    "(4) Before the Local Government Board finally approve a scheme. The local authority shall furnish to them estimates of the cost of the scheme and of the rents expected to be derived from the houses provided under the scheme."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (5), leave out the words
    "and may provide for joint action bring taken by those local authorities and for the apportionment amongst the authorities of any expenses incurred in carrying the scheme into effect,"
    and insert instead thereof the words
    "(and the local authority of each area to which any part of any such joint scheme applies may, or, if the Local Government Hoard after giving the local authority an opportunity of being heard, so direct, shall carry out that part of of the joint scheme and for the purposes of this Sub-section 'local authority' shall in any case where the Local Government Board consent, and subject-to any conditions which the Board may prescribe, include a county council.") —Agreed to.
    Lord Amendment:
    Leave out the words "have regard to" ["shall have regard to any proposals"],
    and insert instead thereof the words
    "make inquiry respecting and take in to account."
    Mr. T. THOMSON: I should like to ask the Minister of Health whether this is a drafting Amendment? This question was discussed in Committee, and the words which are sought to be inserted by the other House were, if I remember rightly, rejected by the Committee on the broad ground that they might make considerable delay in the preparing of these schemes. Though they look comparatively innocent in themselves, any local authority that was not anxious to speed up matters could use the phrasing now suggested as a means of delay, and it would be necessary to make considerable inquiries as to what building was likely to be going on by authorities, by institutions, and by private builders in the district. It was felt by the Committee, I think almost unanimously, that it was very undesirable to leave that opportunity for delay and the words were, after very careful consideration, put in as they appeared in the Bill when it left this House.
    Dr. ADDISON: This does not do really more than put in a reasonable form of words what is meant by "have regard to." It is a distinction largely without a difference. It does not involve the detailed inquiry of individual persons that would have been necessary under the form of words discussed in Committee, and, though I cannot say that I have a particular affection for these words, I do not think the point is one on which it is worth while to express disagreement with their Lordships. I therefore move,
    "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 3. — (Power to Authorize. County Council to Act in Place of Local Authority.)
    (2) Where the Board make an order under this Section the order may, for the purpose of enabling the county council to give effect to the order, apply any of the provisions of the Housing Acts or Section sixty-three of the Local Government Act, 1894, with such modifications and adaptations as appear necessary or expedient:
    Provided that the local authority shall be entitled to appeal to the Local Government Board if. in their opinion, the amount of the expenses which the county council require them to defray or propose to charge against their district is excessive or unreasonable, or against any refusal
    1290
    by a county council to make an order under the said Section sixty-three vesting in the local authority all or any of the powers, duties, property, debts, and liabilities of the county council in relation to the powers transferred to them, upon any such appeal the Board may make such order as they may deem just, and an order so made shall be binding on the county council und tile local authority.
    Lords Amendment:
    At the end of Sub-section (2) insert as a new Sub-section:
    (3) This Section shall apply in cases where a joint scheme has been or in the opinion of the Board ought to be prepared with the substitution of references to the local authorities concerned and their districts for references to the local authority and the district of the local authority.
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 4, — (Power of Load Government Board to Act in Place of the Local Authority.)
    (2) Any expenses (incurred by the Board in the exercise of such powers as aforesaid shall in the first instance be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament, but the amount certified by the Board to have been so expended, and to be properly payable by a local authority, shall on demand be paid to the Board by the local authority and shall be recoverable as a debt due to the Crown, and the sum so payable to the Board shall be a purpose for which the local authority may borrow under Part ill. of the principal Act.
    Lords Amendment:
    In Sub-section (2), after the word "and" ["the Crown and the sum"], insert the words
    "the payment of."
    Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 5. — (Power to Act in Default of Local Authority under Parts I. and II. of Principal Act.)
    Without prejudice to any other powers for enforcing the provisions of the Housing Acts, where the Local Government Board are satisfied that any area within the district of a local authority is an area in respect of which the local authority ought to exercise their powers under Part 1. or Part11. of the principal Act, irrespective of the sufficiency or otherwise of their resources the Board may by order require the local authority to make a scheme for the improvement of such area either under Part 1. or under Part II. of that Act and to do all things necessary under the Housing Acts for carrying into execution the scheme so made, and if the local authority fail within such time as may be prescribed by the order to make a scheme to the satisfaction of the Local Government Board, and to carry the scheme into execution, the Board may either authorise the county council to make and carry out a scheme, or themselves make and take such. steps as may be necessary to carry out a scheme, and the provisions of the last two foregoing Sections of this Act in regard to the powers of county councils and the Board, as the case may be, shall apply.
    Lords Amendments:
    Leave out the words
    "irespective of the sufficiency or otherwise of their resources."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the word "authorise" ["may either authorise the county council"], and insert instead thereof the words
    " by order empower."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 7. —(power to Recoup Losses)
    (1) If it appears to the Local Government Board that tile carrying out by a local authority, or by a county council to whom the powers of a local authority have been transferred under this Act, of any scheme approved under Section one of this Act, or the carrying out of a re-housing scheme in connection with a scheme made under Part I. or Part II. of the principal Act, including the acquisition, clearance, and development of land included in the last-mentioned scheme, and whether the re-housing will be effected on the area included in that scheme or elsewhere, or the carrying out of any scheme approved by the Board for the provision of houses for persons in the employment of or paid by a county council, has resulted or is likely to result in a loss, the Board shall, if the scheme is carried out within such period after the passing of this Act as may be specified by the Board with the consent of the Treasury, pay or undertake to pay to the local authority or county council out of moneys provided by Parliament such part of the loss as may Vie determined to be so payable under regulations made by the Board with the approval of the Treasury, subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by those regulations.

    (2) Such regulations shall provide that the amount of any annual payment to be made under this Section shall —

    (b)in the case of a scheme for the provision of houses for persons in the employment of or paid by a county comics], be an amount equivalent to thirty per centum 'of the annual loan charges as calculated in accordance with the regulations on the total capital expenditure incurred by the county council for the purposes of the scheme:

    Provided that the regulations shall include provisions—

    (i) for the reduction of the amount of the annual payment in the event of a- failure on the part of the local authority or county council to secure due economy in the carrying out of a scheme or otherwise to comply with the conditions prescribed by the regulations;

    (3) Every regulation so made shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as maybe after it is made, and if an address is presented by either House, within twenty-one days from the date on which that House has sat next after any such regulation may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the regulation, but without prejudice to the validity of any thing previously done there under.

    Lords Amendments:
    In Sub-section (1), after the word "council" ["paid by a county council, has resulted''], insert the words
    "or a statutory committee thereof."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (2, b), after the word "council" ["council, be an amount"], insert the words
    "or a statutory committee thereof."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (2, i), after the word "out" insert the words
    " and administration."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (2, i), filler the word "scheme" insert the words
    "to charge sufficient rents."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the words
    "from the date."
    —Agreed to.
    At end of Sub-section (1), insert a new Sub-section:
    (5) The provisions of this Section relating to the carrying out of a schema for the provision of houses for persons in the employment of or paid by county councils shall apply to the Lancashire Asylums' Board, the West Riding of Yorkshire Asylums Board, or other body constituted for the purpose of any combination of county councils and county borough councils.
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 8. —(Borrowing Power of County Councils in connection with- the Housing of Employés.)
    (1) Where money is borrowed by a county council for the purpose of the provision of houses for persons in the employment of or paid by the council, or of acquiring land for such houses, the maximum period for repayment shall be eighty years, and as respects money so borrowed eighty years shall be substituted for thirty years in Sub-section (5) of Section sixty-nine of the Local Government Act, 1888.
    (3) A county council shall have power and shall be deemed always to have had power to provide houses for persons in the employment of or paid by the council, and for that purpose a county council may be authorised to acquire land in like manner as a local authority may he authorised to acquire land for the purposes of Part III of the principal Act.
    Lords Amendments:
    In Sub-section (1), after the word "council" ["by the council, or of acquiring"] insert the words
    "or a statutory committee thereof."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (3), after the word "council" ["paid by the council, and for that purpose "], insert the words
    "or a statutory committee thereof."
    —Agreed to.
    At the end of Sub-section (3), insert a new Sub-section,
    (4) This Section shall apply to any such board or body as is mentioned in Sub-section (5) of Section seven of this Act in like manner as it applies to a. county council, with the substitution of a reference to the provisions fixing the period within which such board or body is required to repay loans for the reference to Sub-section (5) of section sixty-nine of the Local Government Act, 1888.
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 9 —(Provisions Assessment of Compensation.)
    (1) Where land included in any scheme made or to be made under Part 1. or Part II. of the principal Act (other than land included in such a scheme only for the purpose of making the scheme efficient and not on account of the sanitary condition of the premises there on or of those premises being dangerous or prejudicial to health) is acquired compulsorily, the compensation to be paid for the land, including any buildings thereon, shall be the value at the time the valuation is made of the land as a site cleared of buildings and available for development in accordance, with the requirements of the building bye-laws for the time being in force in tin; district:
    Provided that if the scheme requires that provision shall be made for the rehousing of persons of the working classes on the land or part thereof when cleared, or that the land or a part thereof when cleared shall be laid out as an open space, the compensation payable to all persons interested in any land included in the scheme (other than as aforesaid) for their respective interests therein shall be reduced by an amount ascertained in accordance with the rules set forth in the First Schedule to this Act,
    Lords Amendment:
    In Sub-section (1), leave out the words
    "the scheme requires that provision shall be made,"
    and insert instead thereof the words
    "in the opinion of the Local Government Board it is necessary that provision should be made by the scheme."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 10. — (Power of Entry on Land Acquired.)
    (1) Where an order authorising a local authority to purchase land compulsorily for the purpose of Part III. of the principal Act has been made and confirmed under the provisions of Part I. of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1909, then, at any time after notice to treat has been served, the local authority may, after giving not less than fourteen days' notice to the
    1294
    owner and occupier of the land, enter on and take possession of the land without previous consent or compliance with Sections eighty-four to ninety of the Lands Clauses (Consolidated) Act, 1845, but subject to the payment, of the like interest on the compensation awarded.

    (2) Where a local authority has agreed to purchase land for the purpose of Part III. of the principal Act, and the land is in the possession of a person having no greater interest therein than as a tenant for a year or from year to year, then at any time after such agreement has been made, the local authority may, after giving not less than fourteen days' notice to the occupier of the land, enter on and take possession of the land without previous consent but subject to the payment to the occupier of the like compensation with such interest thereon as aforesaid as if the local authority had been authorised to purchase the land compulsorily and such occupier had in pursuance of such power been required to quit, possession before the expiration of his term or interest in the land, but without the necessity of compliance with Sections eighty-four to ninety of the Lands Clauses (Consolidation) Act, 1845.

    Lords Amendments:
    In Sub-section (1), after the word "land" ["possession of the land without previous consent"], insert the words
    " or such part thereof as is specified in the notice."
    —Agreed to.
    After the word "like" [payment of the like interest"] insert the words
    " compensation for the land of which possession is taken and."
    —sAgreed to.
    At the end of Hub-section (I), add the words
    "as would have been payable if those provisions had been complied with."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (2), after the word "act" [Part III. of the principal Aft and"], insert the words
    "or has determined to appropriate land for that purpose."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words
    " and the land is in the possession of a person having no greater interest than as,"
    and insert instead thereof the words
    " subject to the interest of the person in possession thereof and that interest is not greater than that of "
    —sAgreed to.
    After the word "made" ["'has been made "] insert the words
    " or such appropriation has been approved by the Local Government Board."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words occupier of the laud," and insert instead thereof the words
    "a person so in possession."
    —Agreed to.
    After the word "land" ["land with out "] insert the words
    " or such part thereof as is specified in the notice."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the word "occupier" [" occupier of the like "], and insert instead thereof the words
    "Person so in possession."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the word "occupier" and insert instead thereof the word
    "person."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 12—(Additional Powers on to Acquisition of Land and Houses.)
    (2) The purposes for which land may be acquired under Part III. of the principal Act shall be deemed to include—

    (b) the lease or sale under the powers conferred by this Act of any part of the land acquired with a view to the use thereof for purposes which in the opinion of the local authority are necessary or desirable for or incidental to the development of the land as a building estate, including the provision, maintenance, and improvement of houses and gardens and other works or buildings for or for the convenience of persons belonging to the working classes and other persons.

    (3) Subject to the consent of the Local Government Board and to such conditions as the Board may prescribe, a local authority may for the purposes of part III. of the principal Act, contract for the purchase or lease of houses suitable for the working classes, whether built at the date of the contract or intended to be built thereafter.

    Lords Amendments:
    In Sub-section (2",b), after the word "gardens" [''houses and gardens"].insert the words
    "factories, workshops, places of worship, places of recreation."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (3), after the word "purchase,'' insert the word
    "by."
    —Agreed to.
    After the word "lease" ["lease of houses"] insert the words
    "to them."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 14. — (Power to Acquire Water Rights.)
    A local authority or a county council may, notwithstanding anything in Section three hundred and twenty-seven or Section three hundred and thirty-two of the Public Health Act, 1875, but subject to the provisions of Section fifty-two of that Act, be authorised to abstract water from any river, stream, or lake, or the feeders thereof, whether within or without the district of the local authority or the county, for the purpose of affording a water supply for houses provided or to be provided under a scheme made under the Housing Acts, and to do all such acts as may be necessary for affording a water supply to such houses, and to any houses or agricultural holdings that may be deprived of sufficient water supply by reason of such abstraction, in like manner and subject to the like restrictions as they may be authorised to acquire land for the purposes of the scheme:
    Lords Amendments:
    Leave out the word "and" ["and to any"], and insert instead thereof the words
    "subject to a prior obligation of affording a sufficient supply of water.''
    —Agreed to.
    After the word "holdings" ["agricultural holdings"] insert the words
    "or other premises."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words "of sufficient water supply," and insert instead thereof the word
    "thereof."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 15. — (Powers Dealing with Land Acquired.)
    (1) Where a local authority nave acquired or appropriated any land for the purposes of Part 1ll. of the principal Act. then, without prejudice to any of their other powers under that Act, the authority may—

    (b) with the consent of the Local Government Board sell or lease the land or part thereof to any person for the purpose and under the condition that that person will erect and maintain thereon, such number of houses suitable for the working classes as may be fixed by the local authority in accordance with plans approved by them, and when necessary will lay out and construct public streets-or roads and open spaces on the land, or will use the land for purposes which, in the opinion of the local authority, are necessary or desirable for or incidental to the "development of the land as a building estate in accordance with plans approved by the local authority, including the provision, maintenance, and improvement of houses and gardens, and other works or buildings for. or for the convenience of. persons belonging to the working classes and other persons.

    Lords Amendment:
    In Sub-section (1,b), after the word "gardens" ("houses and gardens"], insert the words
    "factories, workshops, places of warship, places of recreation."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 16. — (Power of Local Government Board to As, in Preparation of Schemes.)
    For the purpose of assisting in the preparation and carrying out of schemes under this Act, the Local Government Board may, with the consent of the Treasury, acquire and hold lands and buildings, erect buildings, and dispose of any lands or buildings so acquired or erected.
    Lords Amendment:
    After the word "Act" ["under this Act"] insert the words
    "or for the purpose of securing the immediate provision of dwelling accommodation in the area of any local authority pending the preparation of a scheme by such authority."
    —Agreed to.
    Lords Amendment:
    After the word "buildings" ["erect buildings "] insert the words
    "alter, enlarge, repair and improve buildings."
    MR. SPEAKER: I think this is a privilege Amendment. The Clause provides that the Local Government Board may acquire and hold lands and buildings, and then the Amendment proceeds to enlarge that considerably by putting in the words, "alter, enlarge, repair and improve buildings," which may increase the cost and mean a further charge on the Exchequer, and that is a matter which is reserved for the House of Commons.
    Dr. ADDISON: May I point out with great respect that these words might not in many cases necessarily increase the charge because it might be more economical to alter existing buildings than to build new ones? Apart from that question these words were worded to carry out what was the desire in Committee and on Report as to the power of the Department in this matter. I think the Amendment is of great value, and an improvement to the Bill, and on that account I hope that the House will not insist on its privilege. These words will enable us to deal in an expeditious and adequate manner with a very large number of empty houses or houses suitable. I believe it is one of the most valuable Amendments added to the Bill, and in the hope that the House will not insist on its privilege. I beg to move,
    1298
    "That this House doth agree with the Lords-in the said Amendment."
    Question put, and agreed to. Lords Amendment:
    At the end, insert the words
    "and for such purposes the Board may exercise any of the powers of a local authority under the Housing Acts in regard to the acquisition and disposal of land and buildings."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 17. — (Occupation of House Erected by Local Authority not to Disqualify for Election to Local Authority.)
    for removing doubts it is hereby enacted that a person shall not, by reason only of the fact that he occupies a house at a rental from the local authority, be disqualified from being elected or being a member of the council or any committee of the council of such local authority.
    Lords Amendments:
    Leave out the words "the local authority," and insert, instead thereof the words
    "a local authority within the meaning of Part III. of the principal Act."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words "of the council'' ["being "member of the council '], and insert instead thereof the word
    "thereof."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words "of the council of. such local authority," and insert instead thereof the word
    "thereof."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 18. — (Power of Promoting and Assisting Public Utility Societies.)
    (1) A local authority within the meaning of Part III. of the principal Act, or a county-council, may promote the formation or extension of, or subject to the provisions of this Section assist a public utility society, whose objects include the erection, improvement or management of houses for the working classes, and where such a society is desirous of erecting houses for the working classes which, in the opinion of the Local Government Board, are required, and the local authority of the area in which the houses are proposed to be built are-unwilling to acquire land with a view to selling or leasing the same to the society, the county council, on the application of the society, may for this purpose acquire land and exercise all the powers of a local authority under the Housing Acts in regard to the acquisition and disposal of land.
    Lords Amendment:
    At end, insert the words
    "and the provisions of those Acts as to the acquisition of land by local authorities within the meaning of Part III. of the principal Act. shall apply accordingly.''
    —Agreed to.

    CLALUSE 19. — (Power of Contributing to Costs Incurred by Public Utility Societies and Housing Trusts.)
    (2) Such regulations shall provide that the amount of any annual payment to be made under this Section shall be equivalent to thirty per centum of the annual loan charges which would have been payable in accordance with the regulations on the total capital expenditure incurred by the public utility society or housing trust for the purposes of the scheme if the amount of that expenditure had been borrowed from the Public works Loan Commissioners:
    Every regulation so made shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as may be after it is made, and if an address is presented by either House within twenty-one days from the date on which that House has sat next after any such regulation is laid before it praying that the regulation may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the regulation, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done there under.
    Lords Amendment:
    Leave out the words
    "from the date."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 20— (Loans to Public Utility Societies.)
    (2) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Public Works Loans Act, 1875, or any Act amending that Act, where a loan is made by the Public Works Loans Commissioners under Section sixty-seven of the principal Act to a public utility society for the purpose of carrying out a scheme for the provision of houses for the working classes approved by the Local Government Board:
    (c) During such period as may be specified by the Board, with the consent of the Treasury, the money advanced on the security of a mortgage of any land or dwellings solely shall not exceed seventy-five per cent. of the purchase price of the land and of the cost of its development and of the houses proposed to be mortgaged as certified by the Local Government Board; but advances may be made by instalments in respect of the purchase money of the land to be acquired, and of the cost of its development, and in respect of the building of any house or houses on the, land mortgaged as such building progresses, so that the total of the advances do not at any time exceed the amount aforesaid; and a mortgage may acordingly be made to secure advances so to be made from time to time.
    Lords Amendments:
    At the beginning of paragraph (c), insert the words
    "In the course of loans made."
    —Agreed to.
    After the word "period,"' insert the words
    "after the passing of this Act."
    —Agreed to.
    Lords Amendment:
    After the word ("solely," insert the words
    "may exceed two-thirds but"
    Lords Amendment read a second time.
    Mr. SPEAKER: This Amendment deals with the money advanced on the security of a mortgage on any land or dwellings, which, the Bill says, shall not exceed 75 per cent., and the Lords Amendment says it may exceed two-thirds but shall not exceed 75 per cent. 1 do not understand quite whether that really has anything of substance in it, but it is not open to the Lords to decide in anyway the amount of the security or mortgage which the Treasury may consent to. It may or may not be a desirable Amendment. I cannot say, but it is not really open to the Lords to deal with this matter, which is one of money, and is, therefore, only within the province of the Commons.
    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move,
    "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    I do not think the point is of any great substance, and, therefore, I do not desire to ask the House to insist on its privilege in this case.
    Captain ORMSBY-GORE: May I ask for a further explanation of this Amendment? It seems to me quite unnecessary, and I do not see the point of it at all. As the Bill left this House I gather that anything from 5 up to 75 per cent, was allowed. Why this two-thirds should be put in, I am at a complete loss to understand, unless it has some reference to some special Building Act or to something like the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act. Therefore I should be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman would give some explanation; otherwise, I hope we shall disagree with what appears to me an unnecessary Amendment.
    Dr. ADDISON: It is a point of no substance from the point of view expressed by my hon. and gallant Friend. The point is that the existing Act is limited to two-thirds, and we bring it up here to 75 per cent., and this says it may exceed 75 per cent. It appears to be a point of no substance, and, therefore, I have no desire to press the House to agree with the Amendment.
    Question put, and negatived.

    CLAUSE 21. — [Loan to Private Persons]
    During a. period of two years from the passing of this Act, the money which may be advanced by the Public Works Loan Commissioners to any private person for the purpose of constructing Douses for the working classes on the security of a mortgage of any land or dwellings solely may, if the Commissioners think fit and if the houses are constructed in accordance with plans approved by the Local Government Board, exceed the amount specified in Sub-section (2) of Section sixty-seven of the principal Act, but shall not exceed seventy-five per centum of the value of the estate or interest in such land or dwellings proposed to be mortgaged, and advances may be made by instalments from time to time as the building of the houses on the land mortgaged progresses, so that the total of the advances do not at any time exceed the amount last mentioned, and a mortgage may accordingly be made to secure advances so to be made from time to time.
    Lords Amendment: After the word "solely" ["land or dwellings solely may"], Insert the words
    " shall in the case of persons being members of a building -societies incorporated under the Building Societies Acts, 1874 to 1894, be advanced upon the most favourable terms the Treasury by regulation may permit, and in any case."
    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move,
    "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This is an Amendment which was dismissed at considerable length in their Lords-nips House, and it was put in quite frankly from the point of view that it would be desirable to evoke some expression of opinion from the Government on the point. The matter involved is this. Building societies, as is well known, have, in some cases, accumulated very large sums, and it is very desirable, if it can be achieved, that these, funds may be used now to assist in building. We all desire to do that if we can, I am sure. But the Bill, as it left this House, did not provide for a scheme apart from a housing trust or forming a public utility society, whereby building societies as such could be assisted financially. Of course, it would not be within the powers of their Lordships House to insert words providing financial assistance. It would have been necessary for me, had I been able to do so, to ask the House to insert appropriate words now, but I am afraid I am not able to ask the House at this stage to do so. The matter is exceedingly difficult. It is not possible, it seems to me, to help these societies within the four corners of the Bill, as it stands, except they form public utility societies or housing trusts. The proposal is a very ingenious one—it was brought forward by Earl Stanhope—and con-
    1302
    sisted in providing a considerable share of capital by the Public Works Loan Commissioners or the Treasury, and taking no interest for ten years, but thereafter repaying over a period. After fifteen years the purchaser of the house would begin to repay a portion which had been advanced out of public funds by paying 5 per cent, for a period. During the first fifteen years the repayment to the building society would be at 10 per cent, per annum. It is an ingenious scheme, and one which, if we could make it fit in with what the House has sanctioned at present, I should be glad to meet; but I am afraid it raises exceedingly difficult questions involving practically a subsidy to a private individual, and that is a very difficult matter, as the House knows. Although we have been doing our best to work out a scheme which would really achieve what their Lordships would desire, I have not been able to arrive at one which I believe the House would accept at the present time.
    Mr. RATCLIFFE: I should just like to say a word or two with regard to the position of building societies. I say at once, quite frankly, that I am connected with a large building society in the City of London, which has for its main object assisting private individuals to become the owners of the house they occupy. At the present time we are advancing money to the occupiers of 2,000 houses per annum on the purchase of the houses that they either dwell in or intend to dwell in. I am not moving in this matter at all with a view of getting business for building societies, because at the present moment they have other opportunities of lending their money. They have many other facilities for investing their money in Government securities, which pay them quite as high a rate of interest as they could hope to get from the other borrowers. I look at it from the broad point of view; not at all from the point of view of profit-making for the building societies. It is a very great pity indeed that something like between 25,000,000 and £30,000,000 which has been accumulated by the building societies of this country should have to be diverted to purposes for which it was never intended—large capital sums have been acquired entirely to provide working men and women with houses in various towns throughout the country. It seems to me it would be well if some scheme could be devised whereby a greater use might be made of the organisation of

    1303
    these building societies, with their unrivalled facilities for obtaining accurate, or as nearly accurate as may be to finite minds, estimates of the values of the various residential properties, mostly of the working - class or better working - class kind. From a national point of view it seems to me that we ought to avail ourselves of every possible opportunity of encouraging building societies to assist people more and more to purchase the very houses that we are proposing to erect under the Housing of the Working Classes Act. In that way we should to a considerable extent limit the amount of money required from time to time from the Government itself, and as these houses were sold from time to time, Government money, or the money of the local authorities, would be released, and would be enabled to be used to erect other blocks of property. From a national point of view I know nothing which is more calculated to create a law-abiding, stable working-class population than getting hold of the houses in which they live. The same argument has been applied in regard to the small-holdings question this evening. There is no doubt whatever—although it may be looked upon as sentiment—it is a very sane, solid opinion that people have of love for the house in which they live, and which belongs to them.
    In Yorkshire we call them house-proud people, because if ever you want to find real, nicely kept and clean and good-conditioned houses you will find they belong as a rule to the people who live in them. I hope, with all due respect to the difficulties which my right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill has put before the House, that some method will be devised whereby some provision shall be put in helping working people to become the owners of their houses. In that way you will bring about one of the best working-class populations you can have in this or any other country.
    Captain ORMSBY-GORE: I hope my right hon. Friend will not leave the matter where we are bound to leave it to-night. This Amendment was introduced in the other House on behalf of Lord Grey, who has had great experience in the city of Newcastle, and I believe the scheme he advocated was submitted to him by a building society. These societies have built many thousands of houses in the past, and one hopes that they
    1304
    will continue to do so in the future. There is a fear if nothing is done speedily that the active work of building societies will not continue. I invite the right hon. Gentleman to confer at the earliest possible date with representative working-men building societies with a view to producing a short Bill as an amending Bill to the Acts of 1874 and 1894, giving them some measure of assistance, in order that the measure of assistance the State is giving to local authorities and public utility societies may not put the working-men building societies at a disadvantage. Those two classes of societies are receiving considerable State assistance, and I hope he will look into the matter and produce, perhaps in the autumn, something to meet this question. I feel that the work of the building societies in the past should be fully recognised, and they should be encouraged to go on in the work they have done with the help and encouragement of this House.
    Major MOLSON: In the Constituency of Gainsborough, which I represent, we have built a good many houses, and we have many building societies, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman very seriously and earnestly if he can set! his way to give to building societies the same amount of support which he is giving to the local authorities. In that town a great many working men have built their own houses through the building society, and this tends to encourage a great deal of thrift and saving. I quite understand that it is very urgent to press forward with this Bill, and I would like to facilitate its-progress as much as possible, but I do urge the right hon. Gentleman to try and aid these societies in some kind of way.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 22. — (Loans by Local Authorities for the. Improvement of Housing Accommodation)
    (1) Where the owner of a house or building applies to the local authority for. assistance for the purpose of carrying out 'works for the reconstruction, enlargement, or improvement thereof, and the local authority of the district in which the house is situated are of opinion that after the works are carried out the house or building would be in all respects fit for habitation as a house or as house? of the working classes, and that the circumstances of the district in regard to housing accommodation are. such as to make it desirable that the works should be carried out, the local authority may lend to the owner the- whole or any part of such sum as may be necessary to defray the cost of the works, and any, charges, or exposes incidental thereto.
    Lords Amendments:
    In Sub-section (1), after the word "authority" ["applies to the local authority for assistance"], insert the words
    "within the meaning of part 111. of the principal Act of the district in which the house is situated."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words
    "of the district in which the house is situated."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the word ''of" ["houses of the working classes"], and insert instead thereof the word
    "for"
    —Agreed to.
    After CLAUSE 22 insert, the following new Clause A.
    (Purchase of Building Materials in Possession of a Government Department.)
    A. Any bricks or other building materials in the possession of a Government Department which are available for purchase by a local authority for the erection or improvement of houses under the Housing Acts shall also be available for purchase on not less favourable terms by any owner of a house or building or site who enters in to an agreement, with such security as may be prescribed by regulations made by the Local Government Board to use all building materials so purchased by him in the erection or improvement of houses for the working classes.
    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move,
    "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    Whilst I am desirous of securing that private persons who are building houses shall have what advantage can be properly given in respect of any material that may be at the disposal of a Government Department, I think the words of the Clause as passed by their Lordships House would go too far. Therefore, I shall ask the House to disagree with this Amendment, with a view of meeting the point by moving another Clause.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Amendment made to the Bill: Instead of Clause A, disagreed with, insert the following new Clause:
    (Provisions as to Sale of Building Materials.)
    "Subject to any conditions prescribed by the Local Government Board, with the consent of the Treasury, any bricks or other building materials which have been acquired by a Government Department for the purpose of the. erection or improvement of houses for the working classes and which are not for the time being required for that purpose by any local authority or public utility society may, during a period of two years from the passing of this
    1306
    Act, be sold to any person who undertakes to use the same forthwith for the purpose of erecting or improving houses for the working classes and to comply with the said conditions at a price sufficient to cover the cost of replacement at the time of sale or the materials so told." — [Dr. Addison.]

    CLAUSE 23. — (Relaxation of By-laws.)
    (1) Where in pursuance of a housing scheme to which this Section applies new buildings are constructed, or public streets and roads are laid out and constructed, in accordance with plans and specifications approved by the Local Government Board, the provisions of any building bylaws shall not apply to the new buildings and new streets carried out in pursuance of the scheme so far as those provisions are inconsistent with the plans and specifications approved by the Local Government Board, and notwithstanding the provisions of any other Act any street laid out and constructed in accordance with such plans and specifications may be taken over and thereafter maintained by the local authority.

    (2) Where the Local Government Board have approved plans and specification which in certain respects are inconsistent with the provisions of any building by-laws which are in force in the district in which the works are to be executed, any proposals for the erection therein of houses and the laving out and construction of new streets which do not form part of a housing scheme to which this Section on applies may, notwithstanding those provisions, be carried out if the local authority are satisfied that they will involve departures from such provisions only to the like extent as in the case of the plans and specifications so approved, and that where such plans and specifications have been approved subject to any conditions, the like conditions will lie complied with in the case of proposals to which this Sub-section. applies.

    Lords Amendment:
    In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "curried" ["new buildings and streets carried out "], and insert instead thereof the? words
    "constructed and laid."
    —Agreed to.
    Lords Amendment:
    In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "may" ["plans and specifications may be taken"] and insert instead thereof word "'shall."
    Mr. SPEAKER: This Amendment is also a privilege Amendment. It takes away from the local authority the discretion of decision, and compels them, whether they like it or not, to undertake the liability.
    Dr, ADDISON: This Amendment is objected to, and as it is a case of the privilege of the House, I beg to move,
    "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Lords Amendment:
    At end of Sub-section (1), insert the words
    "Provided that as regards the Administrative County of London, the Board shall not approve any plans and specifications inconsistent with the provisions of any building by-laws in force in the county except after consultation with the London County Council on the general question of the relaxation of such provisions in connection with housing schemes."
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    Mr. LORDEN: I am sorry that we are not disagreeing with this Amendment. A similar Amendment was proposed in this House on the Report stage, and the only addition is nine words at the end; it is practically identical with what was rejected. The then President of the Local Government Board—now the Minister for Health—on that occasion said he was unable to accept the Amendment because there were other Amendments which raised similar considerations which had reference to housing and which wanted some of these matters based on statutory injunction, consultation, reference and advertisement, until the whole process became so cumbrous and complicated that you could not do it. Fnally the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "I cannot accept the proposal that we should be under a statutory obligation to do this kind of thing in every case."
    There is another point to be borne in mind. When the London County Council have had a building scheme or a housing scheme they have practically abrogated the London Building Act, but now we are going to let them impose this on the boroughs and on the County of London, and we are thereby going to retard very seriously the work of housing, if we are to insist on consultations with the London County Council with regard to their Building Acts. There are twenty-eight London building authorities, each of which will have some scheme or schemes, and the time that will be lost in consultation with the London County Council will be serious. I have served on the London County Council and therefore I know, and I hope that this Amendment will be opposed; otherwise it will retard building in London. I would not mind cosulting the Local Governtment Board or the Ministry of Health, but not the county council, in view of the delay which would result. 1 hope the right ht hon. Gentleman will resist this Amendment.
    Dr. ADDISON: While I do not depart from a single word I said when the Amendment was before this House, I would like to point out that in that case it was proposed we should consult the London County Council in every case, whereas now the proposal is only to consult it on the general question of the relaxation of provisions. They are the building authority, and I do not think it is unreasonable to ask that, in regard to a general comprehensive scheme, we should discuss it with the county council.
    Captain ORMSBY-GORE: 1 am very anxious that we should get out of this rut in to which we have got over the by-laws system. No doubt that system did a great deal for the improvement of housing in the old days. It was an improvement on the system of Cobdenite chaos which existed in Victorian times. When we are going in for town planning the, in many cases, old-obsolete by-laws are merely instruments of bureaucratic tyranny against all reasonable progress in town planning and building. The sooner we can. get rid of some of the tyranny of the by-law system the better. Therefore I hope we shall not always be brought up in London against the London Building Act—one of the most complicated and minute body of by-laws ever brought together. 1 hope that this does not mean that there are going to be continued consultations with the county council.
    Dr. ADDISON: Hear, hear !
    Captain ORMSBY-GORE: Have one consultation, by ail means. Get rid of the London Building Act for ever, and get on. to a more progressive, enlightened, and better state of things. I am rather sorry that the right hon. Gentleman has agreed to this Amendment, because it looks as if there is a hankering after the old state of things. One knows what surveyors are, and how they cling to the by-laws. Whenever they get a by law saying that a street must be 42 ft. wide, they regard that as the last word in laying out houses. It is not. We have to get ahead of these by-laws. I hope, if we agree to this, that it will not be abused and that hon. Members of this House will watch the working of this provision very carefully and will see that the London County Council is not always insisting-upon the rigid application of the London Building Act.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Lords Amendments:
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words
    "which are"
    ["by-laws which" are in force in the district.''] — Agreed to.
    After the word "authority" ["if the local authority are satisfied"], insert the words
    "or on appeal the Local Government Board "
    —Agreed to.
    After Sub-section (3), insert new Subsection
    (4) Subject to any conditions which may be prescribed by the Local Government Board, the provisions of any building by-laws shall not apply to any new buildings and new streets constructed and laid out by a county councilor local authority in accordance with plans and specifications approved by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under Small Holdings and Allotment Acts. 1908and 1910, or any Act amending the same.
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 24. — (Consent of Local Authority to Erection and Use of Building)
    (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of any building by-laws a local authority may, during a period of three years from the passing of this Act. consent to the erection and use for human habitation of any buildings erected or proposed to be erected in accordance with plans approved by tin; Local Government Board.
    Lords Amendment:
    Leave out the words "plans approved," and insert instead thereof the words
    "any regulations made."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE "25. — (By-laws Respecting Houses Divided into Separate Tenements.)
    (6) Where the person on whom obligations are imposed by any by-laws made for the purposes specified in Subsection (1) of this Section with respect to houses so occupied as aforesaid holds the premises under a lease or agreement and satisfies the local authority that compliance with such by-laws is contrary to the provisions of the lease or agreement, or that the whole or any part of the expenses of carrying out the obligations ought to be borne by his lessor or other superior landlord, the local authority may, after giving the lessor or any such superior landlord an opportunity of being heard—

    (a) in the first case, order that the provisions of the lease or agreement be relaxed so far as they are inconsistent with the requirements of the by-laws;

    (b) in the second case, grant to the person who carries out the works necessary for compliance with the by-laws, on proof to the satisfaction of the local authority that the works have been properly carried out, a charging order charging on the premises
    1310
    an annuity to repay the expenses properly incurred in carrying out the works or such part of those expenses as the local authority consider ought to be so charged.

    (7)The annuity shall be of such amount and extend over such number of years as the local authority may determine, but if either party are dissatisfied with the decision of the local authority the question of the amount and the duration of the annuity shall be determined by an arbitrator appointed by the President of the Surveyors' Institution.

    (8) Sub-sections (3) and (4) of Section thirty-six and Section thirty-seven of the principal Act, and Section nineteen of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1909, shall apply to charging orders and annuities under this Section in like manner as to charging orders and annuities under the said Section thirty-six.

    (9) Where a local authority have themselves acquired a leasehold interest in any house under the powers conferred upon them by this Act, the Local Government Board, oh the application of the local authority, may make a similar order with regard to the relaxation of the provisions of the lease and to charging an annuity on the promises as might have been made by the local authority on the application of a person desiring to convert a house as aforesaid, and in that case the decision of the Local Government Board as to the amount and duration of any such annuity shall be final.

    (10) This Section shall apply to the administrative county of London with the following modifications:" —

    (a) As respects the county of London, the bylaws for the purposes specified in Subsection (1) of this Section shall be made by the London County Council, and shall be observed and enforced by the council of each metropolitan borough except as regards by-laws for the purposes specified in paragraph (f) of Sub-section (1) which shall be enforced by the London County Council;

    (b) As respects the City of London, such bylaws shall be made and enforced by the common council except as regards by-laws for the purposes specified in paragraph (f) of Sub-section (1), which shall be made and enforced by the London County Council.

    Lords Amendments:
    In Sub-section (6), after the word "may" [" the local authority may "], insert the words
    "make application to the County Court, and the County Court may."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (6, b), leave out the words "local authority," and insert instead thereof the words
    "County Court."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (7), leave out the words "local authority," and insert instead thereof the words
    "County Court."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words
    "but if either party are dissatisfied with the decision of the local authority the question of the amount and the duration of the annuity shall be determined by an arbitrator appointed by the President of the Surveyors Institution."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (8), leave out the words "Sub-sections (3) and (4)," and insert instead thereof the words
    "Sub-section (3)."
    —Agreed to.
    After the word "thirty-seven," insert the words
    "except Sub-section (4)."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (9), after the word "might" ["as might have been made "], insert the words
    "had the lessee not from the local authority."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words
    "by the local authority on the application of a person desiring to convert a house as aforesaid,"
    and insert instead thereof the words
    "on the application of the local authority by the County Court."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (10, a), after the word "Council" ["shall be made by the County Council"], insert the words
    "and any by-laws so made shall supersede any by-laws made for those purposes by the Council of any Metropolitan Borough."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 26. — (Power to Authorize Conversion of a House into several Tenements.)
    Where it is proved to the satisfaction of the County Court on sin application by the local authority or the lessee of a house that, owing to changes in the character of the neighbourhood in which such house is situate, the house cannot readily be let as a single tenement but could readily be let for occupation if converted into two or more tenements, and that the provisions of the lease do not admit of such conversion, the Court, after giving any person entitled to any interest in the house an opportunity of being heard, may vary the terms of the lease so as to enable the house to be so converted subject to such conditions and upon such terms as the Court may think just.
    Lords Amendments:
    Leave out the words "the lessee of," and insert instead. there of the words
    "any person interested in."
    —Agreed to.
    After-the word "that" [" and that the provisions of the lease"], insert the words
    "by reason of."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words "do not admit of such conversion," and insert instead thereof the words
    "or of any restrictive covenant affecting the house or otherwise such conversion is prohibited or restricted."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words '" entitled to any interest in the house," and insert instead thereof the word
    "interested."
    —Agreed to.
    After the word ''lease"["may vary the terms of the lease "], insert the words
    "or other instrument imposing the prohibition or restriction."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 27. —(Repair of Houses.)
    (1) If the owner of any house suitable for occupation by persons of the working classes fails to make and keep such house in all respects reasonably fit for human habitation then, without prejudice to any other powers, the local authority may serve a notice upon the owner of such house requiring him within a reasonable time, not being less than twenty-one days specified in the notice, to execute such works as may be necessary to make the house in all respects reasonably fit for human habitation.

    (2) If the notice given by the local authority is not complied with, the authority may at the expiration of the time specified in the notice given by them to the owner, do the work required to be done.

    (3) Any expense incurred by the local authority under this Section may be recovered in a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, together with interest at a rate not exceeding five pounds per centum per annum from the date of service of a demand for the same till payment there of from the owner, and until recovery of such expenses and interest the same shall be a charge on the premises. In all summary proceedings by the local authority for the recovery of any such expenses, the time within which such proceedings may be taken shall be reckoned from the date of the service of notice of demand.

    (4)The local authority may by order declare any such expenses to be payable by monthly or annual instalments within a period not exceeding thirty years with interest at a rate not exceeding five pounds per centum per annum from the date of the service of notice of demand until the whole amount is paid, and any such instalments and interest or any part thereof maybe recovered in a summary manner from the owner or occupier, and may be deducted from the rent of such premises.

    (5)The local authority, if they think it, from time to time (in addition and without prejudice to any other remedy) may recover in a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, or as a simple contract debt, by action in any Court of Competent Jurisdiction, from the owner for the time being of any such premises the whole or any portion of such expenses and interest.

    Lords Amendment:
    In Sub-section (I), at the end, add the words
    "Provided that the owner may within twenty-one days after the receipt of such notice, by written notice to the local authority, declare his intention of closing the house for human habitation, and thereupon a closing order shall be deemed to have become operative in respect of such house."
    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move,
    "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This relates to owners of houses suitable for occupation for the working classes who fail to make such houses reasonably fit for habitation. The Amendment would have a most deplorable effect. There are thousands of houses in London alone, many of which we are having scheduled now, and lists will be ready as soon as this Bill is law. It would mean that in the present serious shortage of housing accommodation it would be open to a person, notwithstanding the requirements of the local authority, which involves two conditions, namely, that the house could be put into proper order, and, secondly, that it ought to be put into proper order, to close his house. Clearly where these two conditions are existent no private individual ought to have the power to close a house against the public. It is thoroughly improper. It could not have been fully understood. It would have the most disastrous effect in London. I am sure that was far from the interests of those who put it in.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Lords Amendments:
    n Sub-section (2), after the word "with" ["is not complied with"],insert the words
    "and if the owner has not given such notice as aforesaid."
    —Disagreed with.
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the word "expense" ["Any expense incurred"], and insert instead thereof the word
    "expense."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (4), after the word "and" ["and may be deducted"], insert the words
    "if recovered from the occupier."
    —Agreed to.
    After the word "deducted," insert the words
    "by him."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out Sub-section (5). — Agreed to.
    After CLAUSE 27, insert:

    NEW CLAUSE—(Information to Tenants of Houses for the Working Classes.)
    In the case of houses intended or used for occupation by the working classes, the name and address of the medical officer of health for the district and of the landlord or other person who is directly responsible for keeping the house in all respects reasonably fit for human habitation shall be inscribed in every rent book or where a rent book is not used, shall be delivered in writing to the tenant at the commencement of the tenancy and before any rent is demanded or collected; and if any person demands or collects any rent in contravention of the provisions of this Section he shall in respect of each offence be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding forty shillings.
    —Agreed to.
    It being Eleven of the -clock, MR. SPEAKER proceeded to interrupt the business.
    Dr. ADDISON: May I appeal to the House to continue and to complete this stage, notwithstanding the hour? It will only take a very short time.
    Mr. G. THORNE: I join in that appeal. I take it there are no matters of real moment which require discussion.
    Resolved,
    "That the Lord Amendments be further considered forthwith." — [Dr. Addison.]
    Lords Amendments further considered accordingly.

    CLAUSE 29. — [Extension of Powers under Settled Land Art, 1882.]
    The powers conferred upon a tenant for life ay the Settled Land Acts, 1882 to 1890, shall include the following further powers:
    (a) A power to make a grant in fee simple or absolutely, or a lease for any term of years, for a nominal price or rent or for less than the best price or rent which. could be obtained for the purpose of the erection thereon of dwellings for the working classes or the provision of gardens to be held in connection therewith, provided that no more than two-acres shall be granted as a site for such dwellings or gardens in any one parish without payment of the full price or rent for the excess, except under an order of the Court;
    Lords Amendment:
    After the word "acres" ["two acres "], insert the words
    " in the case of land situated in an urban district or ten acres in the case of land situate in a rural district"
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 32.— (Arrangements between the Local Government Board and Other Departments.)
    The Local Government Board may make Arrangements with any other Government Department for the exercise or performance by that Department of any of their powers and duties under the Housing Acts which appear to them could be more conveniently so exercised and performed, and in such case the Department and officers of the Department shall have the same powers and duties as are by the Housing Acts conferred on the Local Government Board and their officers.
    Lords Amendment:
    Leave out the words "appear to them," and insert instead thereof the words
    "in their opinion"

    —Agreed to.
    Lords Amendments:
    After CLAUSE 33, insert new Clauses:
    C. — (Compensation in Cases of Subsidence.)
    Notwithstanding anything in Section fifty of the Brine pumping (Compensation for Subsidence) Act, 1891, a local authority or county council shall be entitled to compensation in accordance with the provisions of that Act in respect of any injury or damage to any houses belonging to such local authority or council, and provided under a housing scheme towards the losses on which the Local Government Board is liable to contribute under this Act.
    —Agreed to.
    D. — (Application of Act to New Forest.)
    The provision of houses under the Housing Acts, 1890 to 1919, shall be deemed to be a local sanitary requirement for the purpose of the New Forest (Sale of Lands for Public Purposes) Act, 1902, provided that the total area of land being part of the New Forest, which may be sold or let for the provision of houses shall not exceed thirty acres.
    —Agreed to.
    E. — (Extension of Powers of Commissioners of Woods.)
    The Commissioners of Woods may under and in accordance with the provisions of the Crown Lands Acts, 1829 to 1906, sell or let to a local authority for the purposes of Part III. of the principal Act any part of the land described on the duplicate plans which have been deposited with the Clerk of Parliaments and the Clerk of the House of Commons notwithstanding that Such land may be part or parcel of a royal park, if the Ministry of Health, after holding a local inquiry, are satisfied that the acquisition of the land by the local authority for such purposes as aforesaid is desirable in the national interest.
    Lords Amendment read a second time.
    Dr. ADD1SON: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords. Amendment, to-leave out the words "Ministry of Health," and to insert instead thereof the words
    "Local Government Board."
    Amendment to the Lords Amendment agreed to.
    Lords Amendment, as amended, agreed to. — (King's Consent signified.)

    CLAUSE 34, — (Procedure and Minor Amendments of Housing Acts.)
    (1) The Amendments specified in the second column of the Second Schedule to this Act (which relates to procedure under Part I. and Part II. of the principal Act and to minor details) shall be made in the provisions of the principal Act and the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1909, specified in the first column of that Schedule.
    Lords Amendment:
    After the word "Act" [" provisions of the principal Act"], insert the words
    "The Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1903."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 35. — [Continuation.]
    The expression "sell" includes the power to sell in consideration of an annual rent charge, and the expression "sale" has a corresponding meaning;
    The expression "public utility society" means a society registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1693, or any Amendment thereof, the rules whereof prohibit the payment of any interest or dividend at a rate exceeding sis per cent, per annum;
    The expression "building by-laws" includes by-laws made by any local authority under Section one hundred and fifty-seven of the Public Health Act, 1875, as amended by any subsequent enactment, with respect to new buildings and new streets, and any enactments in any local Acts dealing with the construction of new buildings and the laying out and construction of new streets, and any by-laws made with respect of such matters under any such local Act.
    Lords Amendments:
    Leave out the word "sell" ["The expression' sell' "], and insert instead thereof the word
    "sale"
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words "the power to sell," and insert instead thereof the word
    "sale."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the word "sale" ["the expression 'sale'"], and insert the word
    "sell"
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words "Act 1893 or any Amendment thereof," and insert instead thereof the words
    "Acts, 1893 to 1913."
    —Agreed to.
    After the word "buildings" ["buildings and now streets''], insert the words
    "including drainage thereof."
    —Agreed to.
    After the word "construction" ["the construction of new buildings"], insert the words,
    "and drainage."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 36. — (.Application to London of Certain Provisions of the Housing Acts.)
    For the purposes of the application of Part III. of the (principal Act to the County of London—

    (b) the council of a Metropolitan borough shall be the local authority for the Metropolitan borough, to the exclusion of any cither authority, so far as regards the provision of houses within the Metropolitan borough;

    Provided that where the London County Council is satisfied that there is situate within the area of a Metropolitan borough land suitable for development for borough, the county council may submit a scheme for the approval of the Local Government Board for the development of such land to meet the needs of districts situate outside the area of such borough, and t/he county council may carry into effect any scheme which is so approved.

    (2) Any loss which may be incurred by the council of a metropolitan borough in carrying out a scheme to which Section seven of this Act applies shall be repaid to them by the London County Council, and any payments so made by the London County Council shall be deemed to have been made as part of the expenses incurred by them in carrying out a scheme under that Section.

    (3) The London County Council and the Common Council of the City of London may at any time enter into an agreement for carrying out" any scheme for the purposes of Part I. or Part 111. of the principal Act, and for the apportionment of the expenses incurred in carrying out such scheme, and if the scheme is a scheme to which Section seven of this Act applies, any payments made under such apportionment by the county council and the common council shall be deemed, to have been made as part of the expenses incurred in carrying out a scheme under that Section.

    Lords Amendments:
    After the word "Provided" insert the words
    " (i) That nothing in this Section shall prejudice or affect the rights, powers and privileges of the London County Council in regard to any lands, buildings or works acquired, provided of carried out by the county council before the date of the passing of this Act, and (ii)."
    —Agreed to.
    After word "approved," insert the words
    " and such approval shall have the like effect as if it had been given under Section one of this Act."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "under that Section," and insert the words
    "to which that Section applies."
    —Agreed to.
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the words ""under that Section," and insert the words
    "to which that Section applies."
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 38. — (Extension of Power to Make Regulations an to Procedure.)
    38. The power of the Local Government Board of making regulations under Section fifty-six of the Act of 1909 shall include power to make regulations as to the procedure consequent on the passing of a resolution by a local authority to prepare or adopt a town planning scheme, and provision shall be made by those regulations for securing that a local authority after passing such a resolution shall proceed with all reasonable speed with the preparation or adoption of the town planning scheme, and shall comply with any regulations as to steps to be taken for that purpose, including provisions enabling the Local Government Board in the case of default or dilatoriness on the part of the local authority to act in the place and at the expense of the local authority.
    Lords Amendment:
    At the end insert the words
    "(2) Sub-section (2) of Section fifty-six of the Act of 1909 shall have effect as if the following paragraph were added thereto:
    ' For securing that the council of this county in which any land proposed to be included in a town planning scheme is situated (1) shall be-furnished with a notice of any proposal to prepare or adopt such a scheme and with a copy of the-draft scheme before the scheme is made, and (2) shall be entitled to be heard at any public local inquiry held by the Local Government Board in regard to tin; scheme' "
    —Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 41. — (Duty of Local Authorities to Prepare Town Planning Scheme.)
    The council of every borough or other urban district, the population of which exceeds twenty thousand, and any other local authority which the Local Government Board may require, shall, within three years after the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, prepare and submit to the Board a town planning scheme, in accordance with provisions to be determined by the Board with reference to any land within the area of the local authority.
    Lords Amendment:
    Leave out CLAUSE 41.
    Dr. ADDISON: Everyone who has attended this subject will agree that if a clause of this kind had been in operation twenty years ago a great deal of this Bill would not now be necessary, and that it is vital to make an effort in future town planning to secure that buildings will be put up in proper positions, not overcrowded, and of a suitable kind. It was represented in the Lordships House that this Clause would impose a great burden of expense on the local authorities. With the modification introduced into the process of town planning that will not be so. We have no desire to put local authorities to expense, but wish simply to secure that town-planning schemes shall be practical and sensible and not encumbered too much with detail and all the processes which make it practically impossible in many cases. Therefore we propose in reinserting the Clause to make it quite clear that we do not intend that the old elaborate provisions should be followed. The Clause in the form in which we propose to reinsert it provides:

    " (1) The council of every borough or urban district containing on the first day of January, 1923, according to the last Census for the time being of more than 20,000, shall within three years after that date prepare and submit to the Local Government Board a town-planning scheme in respect of the lands in the borough or district in respect of which town-planning schemes may be made under the Act of 1909.

    (2) Without prejudice to the powers of the council and the Act of 1909, every scheme to which this Section applies shall deal with such matters as may be determined by regulations to be made by the Local Government Board."

    That is to say, we can make out by those Regulations a simpler form of town planning than is at present adopted. Therefore I propose:

    (3) Every regulation so made shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as
    1320
    may be after it is made, and if an Address is presented by either House within twenty-one days from the date on which that House has' sat next after any such Regulation is laid before it, praying that the Regulation may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the regulation, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done there under."

    I propose to move,
    "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment "
    in order to reinsert the Clause in the form I have read.
    Mr. SPEAKER: If this House disagree with the Lords, then Clause 41 will remain in the Bill, and it will not be open to the right hon. Member to insert a new Clause. What he wants to do is to agree with the Amendment of the Lords, and then to insert a new Clause.
    Dr. ADDISON: Then I beg to move,
    "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    Mr. T. GRIFFITHS: I hope the Minister of Health will insist on getting this new Clause included, and that he is not going to give way, as he did on the Ministry of Health Bill. A Noble Lord stated, in asking for the rejection of this Clause, that it was the most startling proposal ever met with in any House of Parliament. If the House of Lords had been an elected body like this House they would have found, on visiting the constituencies of the country, that the people required this Clause 41. If we had had a town-planning scheme in the past, we would have saved millions of money and hundreds of thousands of lives, and would also have prevented many accidents, for in many streets in different parts of the country you cannot to-day shove a handcart, much less carry on any business. Another important point is this—it was mentioned yesterday from this side of the House by an hon. Member for Manchester —that comradeship and friendship had been shown between the sons of lords and "Tommies" in the trenches, and the hope was expressed that, now the War was over, the same comradeship would continue between the rich classes and the poor. The lords have their houses in the country where their children have plenty of fresh air and plenty of room to play, but the children of the working classes, living in congested areas, in slums, have

    1321
    no chance of fresh air or of living a healthy life. The object of this is that town planning will be carried out where you can get suitable recreation grounds and everything else for the children. It is recognised that the children of to-day are to be the men and women of the future, I hope the Minister of Health will insist on his Clause. If this is going to be the battleground on which we are to fight this non-elected body, I hope we are going to fight to the death.
    Captain ORMSBY-GORE: I think that this is so important that we must make it perfectly clear to the Lords in disagreeing with the course they take and in reinserting the Clause in its new form that we on all sides of the House feel deep indignation at the rejection of this Clause and at the language which was used in doing it and particularly by one Noble Lord who said that lids Clause had been rushed into the Bill by a few well-meaning enthusiast. As one of those, I feel that the whole altitude of their Lordships to this Clause was most out of sympathy with the demands of the country. I was down in my Constituency only recently at a housing conference of the local authority and they attached the greatest importance to this provision. When they saw that the other House struck it out two of the councillors came to me on Saturday last and pointed out what they called the wrecking work in striking out this Clause. We never can go ahead unless we give some date at which universal town planning is to come, so that local authorities may prepare for this great reform. It is the only chance we shall get of having towns properly developed, and I hope this House will stand firm on this proposal.
    Mr. LESLIE SCOTT: The Lords have treated us in a way which can only be described as reactionary. France in its town planning Bill adopted a measure exactly on the same lines and it is only common sense that towns should be planned in advance. We have suffered now for centuries in this country for the very reason that towns have not been planned in advance. This is the first Clause in our legislation which has ever provided for anything like efficient town planning. We must have it.
    Question put. and agreed to.
    Amendment proposed: Instead of Clause 41, left out of the Bill, to insert Clause [Preparation of Town-planning scheme] — [Dr. Addison.]
    Mr. G. THORNE: I entirely agree with the proposal contained in the new Clause, but I would like to ask, supposing during the period mentioned a borough extends its boundaries, is it the intention of the Government that the Clause should operate as affecting not only the borough but the extension? That, I think, is a matter for consideration, because we all desire that the scheme should apply to the extension.
    Dr. ADDISON: It would apply to those areas.
    Mr. G. MURRAY: The original Clause reads:
    "The Council of every borough or other urban district, the population of which exceeds 20,000, and any other local authority which the Local Government Board may require."
    That last sentence, ''and any other local authority which the Local Government, Board may require," is omitted in the amended Clause. I should like to refer to the Scottish conditions as affected by this Clause, because later on, when the Scottish Bill comes up, we will be informed that this Clause has been passed in the English Bill and that we in Scotland must abide-by the conditions of the English Bill. It was urged in the Scottish Grand Committee that it was important that the words "and any other local authority which the Local Government Board may require" should be included, because it was maintained that there were a number of boroughs which might contain inhabitants of a lesser quantity than 20.000 and yet which ought to prepare town planning schemes. I would therefore ask my right hon. Friend whether it would not be possible to include in this amended Clause the same provision which is included in Unoriginal Clause?
    Dr. ADDISON: In answer to my hon Friend I would point out that the reason; why the words in question are omitted from this Clause is that they are included in the following Clause, Clause 42.
    Clause agreed to.

    CLAUSE 42. — (Power of Local Government Board to Requite Town Planning Scheme.)
    "(1) Where the Local Government Board are Satisfied that a town planning scheme ought to be made by a local authority, the Board may by order require the local authority to prepare and submit for their approval such a scheme, and if the scheme is approved by the Board to do all things necessary for enforcing the observance of the scheme or any provisions thereof effectively, and for executing any works which, under the scheme or under Part II. of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1909, the authority is required to execute.

    (2) Any order made by the Local Government Board under this Section shall have the same effect as a resolution of the local authority deciding to prepare a town planning scheme in respect of the area in regard to which the order is made.

    (3) If the local authority fail to prepare a scheme to the satisfaction of the Board within such time as may be prescribed by the order, or to enforce the observance of the scheme or any provisions thereof effectively, or to execute any such works as aforesaid, the Board may either authorise the county council to act, or may themselves act, in the place and at the expense of the local authority."

    Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1), after the word "satisfied," insert the words
    "After holding a public local inquiry."
    Lords Amendment read a second time.
    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move,
    "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    Mr. T. THOMSON: I should like to have the assurance of the Minister of Health that this will simplify the procedure of the Housing Acts. The old Act has been a great hindrance, and I hope this will simplify it.
    Dr. ADDISON: I think this is a fair point which the House ought to surrender. I confess I do not like it, but I think we must act with reason in the matter and give way here.
    Mr. THOMSON: I am very sorry.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Lords Amendments:
    After the word "authority" [" by a local authority "], insert the words
    "as respects any land in regard to which a town planning scheme may be made under the Act of 1909."
    —Agreed to.
    Leave out the words "Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act," and insert instead thereof the words
    "Act of."
    —Agreed to
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the words
    "either authorise the county council to act, or may."
    —Agreed to.
    After the word "act'' [''or may themselves act"], insert the words
    "or in the case of a borough the population of which is less than 10,000, or of an urban district the population of which is less than 20,000, may, if the Board think fit by order, empower the county council to act."
    Lords Amendment read a second time.
    Mr. A. WILLIAMS: I have been asked by the Urban District Councils Association to move an Amendment to this Amendment of the Lords. As this Section left the House of Commons it amounted to this, that if the local authority failed to prepare a scheme the Local Government Board might either authorise the county council to act or might themselves act As the Lords have sent it back to us, they have created an inequality between urban district councils and boroughs, and the net effect of their proposal is that the Board may, if they think proper, act themselves, or, in the case of a borough which is less than 10,000, may authorise the county council to act, and, in the case of an urban district, if the district is less than 20,000.There seems no reason why the urban district should be put at a disadvantage as compared with the borough. The urban district has been put on an equality with the borough in Clause 41, and I believe a former President of the Local Government Board —
    Dr. ADDISON: I believe the hon. Member wishes to omit the words "the population of which is less than 10,000," and to insert the words "or other." I am quite willing to accept that.
    Amendment made to the Lords Amendment: Leave out the words
    "the population of which is less than 10,000, or of an "
    and insert instead thereof the words
    "or other." —[.Mr A Williams.]
    Lords Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

    SECOND SCHEDULE

    Enactment to be amended.

    Nature of Amendment.

    Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1800 (53 & 64 Viet. c. 70):

    s. 31(1)

    Far the words "in any district any four or more householders living in or near to "any street" there shall be substituted the words "any justice of the peace" acting for a district, or any member of the local authority, or any four or more "householders in a district," and the words "in or near that street" shrill be omitted.

    s. 38 (2)

    Before the words "any four or more inhabitant householders of" there shall be inserted the words' any justice of the peace acting for a district, or any member" of the local authority, or "

    s. 45(1)

    After the words 'where the medical officer of health" there shall be inserted the words "inspector of nuisances or other officer of the district authority."

    s. 57(3)

    The words "if not a rural sanitary authority" and the words "and it a rural "sanitary authority with the consent of the county council of the county in "which the land is situate" shall be omitted.

    s. 81

    The words "or to enter into any contract" shall be omitted.

    First Schedule—

    For the words "The Commissioner of Sewers" there shall be substituted" The "Common Council," and for the words "The sewer rate and the consolidated "rate levied by such Commissioners, or either of such rates, "there shall be substituted the words" The General Rate."

    Lords Amendments:
    In paragraph dealing with S. 31 (1), leave, out the words
    "or any member of the local authority."
    —Agreed to.
    Insert at end
    "Section 21 (2) Before the word 'house- holders 'there shall be inserted the words justice of the peace."
    —Agreed to.
    In paragraph dealing with S. 38 (2), leave out the words
    "or any member of the local authority, or."
    —Agreed to.
    In paragraph dealing with S. 81, at the; beginning, insert the words
    "The word 'or' shall be inserted before the words 'to make any rate.' The words 'out of their number and."
    —Agreed to.
    At end insert
    "after the words 'provided that a committee as appointed shall 'there shall be inserted the words 'consist as to a majority of its members j of members of the appointing local authority, and shall.' "
    —Agreed to.
    In paragraph dealing with First Schedule leave out the word "Commissioner," and insert instead thereof the word
    " Commissioners"
    —Agreed to.
    Ordered,
    "That a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for dig-agreeing to certain of their Amendments to the Bill." — [Dr. Addition.]
    Committee nominated of, — Mr. George Thorne, Dr. Addison, Captain Elliot, Mr. Trevelyan Thomson, and Major Ormsby-Gore.
    Three to be the quorum.
    To withdraw immediately. — [Dr. Addison.]
    It being half-past Eleven of the clock, MR. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at Half after Eleven o'clock.