§ Without prejudice to the provisions of Section ten, Sub-section (3), of the Act of 1911, the tenant of any holding to which these Acts, or any of them, apply, shall, any law or custom or agreement to the contrary notwithstanding, have full right to kill or take on his holding any deer, game, vermin, or other wild animals or birds, so far as reasonably required for the protection of his land and of any crops or other produce of or on his holding against injury or damage.—[Mr. Adamson.]
§ Brought up, and read the first time.
§ Mr. ADAMSONI beg to move "That the Clause be read a second time."
The point raised by this Clause was debated at considerable length in Committee. It is one of the theory subjects that is almost invariably discussed in connection with land tenure. I am moving it with a view to reducing, as far as we possibly can, the difficulties of ex-Service men in successfully cultivating the holdings to be provided for them under tins Bill. We are aware that these ex-Service men will have sufficient difficulties to overcome in successfully cultivating their holdings without having added to them the difficulty of having their crops destroyed by game. It is well known in various parts of the country that there is a considerable amount of valuable foodstuffs destroyed by game and vermin, and it is with a view to giving the smallholders sufficient protection that I move this Clause. Under the existing law it is possible for the smallholder to claim compensation for damages, but in prosecuting a claim of that character he has to incur expenditure which many of these men will not be able to afford Not only is the securing of compensation costly, but it is somewhat slow, and we want to give the men prompt and sufficient protection against damage to their crops and the feeding-stuffs of the country, which are of the greatest value to the people under existing conditions.
§ Mr. MUNROThere are two reasons why I find it difficult to accept the Clause. The first is that, without expressing any view upon the merits of the proposal, it would be extremely difficult to accept this proposal as relating to small holdings of 294 30 acres and deny the same protection to small farms of 100 or 200 acres, or even larger farms.
§ Mr. ADAMSONBring in another Bill.
§ Mr. MUNROAt this stage of the Session, the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion is hardly feasible. It would be unfair and unreasonable to give tins protection to men with holdings of 50 acres, and to refuse it to those whose acreage exceeds that figure. Apart from that, there is this consideration which is relevant, that I have quite recently, within the last few weeks, appointed a Committee representing all the interests concerned to consider this very topic and to report.
§ Mr. MUNROI could not tell my hon. Friend right off who the members are, but the personnel of the Committee was so selected as to represent all the interests concerned. That Committee is now proceeding to investigate, and after investigation it will make a Report. It would be quite premature to give effect to this proposal until one has seen the Report of the Committee. There have been rules and regulations in force during war-time which it may or may not be desirable to continue its peacetime. There were regulations relating to these matters, and the Committee to which I have referred is meantime considering whether they should extend the period or whether tiny should cease. While the whole matter is sub judice, it is premature to legislate on time subject on lines exclusively limited to smallholders.
Dr. MURRAYI am not much influenced by the argument that it is unfair to give this right to smallholders simply because it is not given to the larger farmers. We are only dealing with Smallholders and small holdings, and placing men as smallholders upon the land. Therefore, it is desirable that the conditions for these people should be as good as possible, in order to give them the best possible chance of making a living upon these holdings. It is a practical question in many parts of the country, and especially in the Highlands, where very often the crops of the tenants are ruined by deer, and sometimes by grouse. It is highly desirable that this protection should be given to the smallholders. I would appeal to the sporting instincts of hon. Gentlemen opposite to allow tint; Clause, because it would be 295 a means of training the smallholders in sporting matters. I do not claim that the crofters do not know how to shoot deer and so on, but it is not a Highland custom. It would be an excellent idea to train their sporting instincts in this way. I am not impressed by the suggestion that we should wait until the Committee has reported. Committees which are sent all over the islands are all for shelving questions. There was a Committee on transport, and the transport in the islands is worse than it has been for twenty years. To wait until this Committee reports and to expect any sort of protection for the smallholders from the Report of a Committee of that kind would be simply to waste our time.
§ Mr. MUNROWill my hon. Friend tell me why he makes that statement? He seems to be without knowledge as to the constitution of the Committee, and yet he says the Report will be worthless.
Dr. MURRAYI say it from my experience of former committees that have been sent. I mentioned the question of transport. What good has come from that? I have had complaints from responsible quarters that the interest of the smallholders are not represented upon this Committee.
§ Mr. MUNROThe hon. Member is making most reckless statements without any foundation. A representative of the smallholders, Mr. James Scott, than whom there is no better exponent of the small holdings doctrine in Scotland, was put upon this Committee for the express purpose of safeguarding their interests.
Dr. MURRAYI agree that Mr. Scott is an excellent representative, but I have had complaints from responsible quarters in the North of Scotland that the smallholders have not been directly represented upon this Committee. This is a very serious grievance in some parts of Scotland, and there is no use in saying that we should wait until this Committee has reported.
§ Sir D. MACLEANThis question is one in regard to which it is very easy to excite a great deal of heat. I will not say prejudice. I do not approach it from that point of view, neither do I desire to import any prejudice or undue heat into the discussion. It is common ground that methods for dealing with this evil are in contemplation, and the right hon. Gentle- 296 man has made the practical step of appointing a Committee, upon which I gather that the smallholders are specially represented. I want to ask a few questions about it. When are the Committee going to get to work, and assuming that their Report is in favour of something being done such as is proposed in the new Clause, what steps will the Secretary for Scotland pledge himself to take. Here we have the only Parliamentary opportunity of finding out exactly where the Government stands in regard to this most important matter. The proposed Clause says that the tenant of the holding may be entitled to have the full right to kill or take any deer, game, etc.," and he can exercise the right which the Legislature has given him—for what purpose "So far as reasonably required for the protection of his land and of any crops or other produce of or on his holding against injury or damage." Even the most rabid objectors to the right to take and kill would not say that if the small holding is damaged by game that that is not a right and fair thing.
§ Sir G. YOUNGERThe smallholder gets compensation.
§ Sir D. MACLEANHe would much rather be without compensation and have his holding free to get the full results of his labour from it. The men on these small holdings are entitled to protection against the ravages and depredations of game, and they are entitled to say, "We should be protected even though you are going to give us compensation for damage." Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us when the Committee is going to set to work, and if the Committee reports substantially in favour of the position I have put, what steps he will propose to take to carry the recommendation into effect?
§ Mr. MUNROThe right hon. Gentleman asks me two reasonable questions. The Committee, according to my information, is at work now. In regard to the second question as to what undertaking I can give in regard to any action to be taken upon the Report of the Committee if it is favourable to the line suggested in this Amendment, time right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I cannot pledge the Government in advance to give the time of the House to any Bill which may be proposed; but I can say this, and quite gladly, that if the Committee's Report is in the direction indicated, then, 297 assuming that I hold the office that I now hold, I shall use all my influence to secure that legislation to give effect to their proposals should be introduced without delay. I hope any right hon. Friend will regard this answer as satisfactory.
§ Mr. RAFFANCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Regulations are still in force, and, if so, will they be continued until such time as the Committee can report, and legislation can take effect?
Sir L. HARMSWORTHWill the right hon. Gentleman have any objection to give the names of the Committee?
§ Mr. MUNRONone in the world except that I do not happen to have them here. If my hon. Friend will put down a
§ question, I shall be most happy to give the names. They have appeared in the public Press.
§ Mr. MUNROI am not answering in any critical spirit. The names were published in the "London Gazette" as well as the "Edinburgh Gazette." As regards the other question, these Regulations are in force now and bridge over the hiatus between the present situation and any legislation that may subsequently be introduced.
Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 74; Noes, 232.
299| Division No. 142.] | AYES | [6.48 p. m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. William | Hancock, John George | Scott, A. M. (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Bell, James (Ormskirk) | Hairnsworth, Sir R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Short, A. (Wednesbury) |
| Benn, Captain W. (Leith) | Henderson, Rt. Hon. Arthur | Sitch, C. H. |
| Brace, Rt. Hon. William | Hirst, G. H. | Smith, W. (Wellingborough) |
| Bramsden, Sir T. | Hodge, Rt. Hon. John | Spoor, B. G |
| Bromfield, W. | Hogge, J. M. | Sutherland, Sir William |
| Brown, J. (Ayr and Bute) | Irving, Dan | Swan, J. E. C. |
| Cairns, John | Johnstone, J. | Taylor, J. (Dumbarton) |
| Carter. W. (Mansfield) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Thomas, Fit. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish University) | Jones, J. (Silvertown) | Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, W.) |
| Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.) | Kenyon, Barnet | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Davies, Alfred (Clitheroe) | Lawson, John | Thorne, W. (Plaistow) |
| Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) | Lunn, William | Tootill, Robert |
| Edwards. C. (Bedwellty) | Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Stirling) | Walsh, S. (Ince, Lancs.) |
| Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) | Murray, Lt.-Col. Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) | Ward, Col. J. (Stoke, Trent) |
| Edwards, J. H. (Glam., Neath) | Murray, Dr. D. (Western Isles) | Waterson, A. E. |
| En[...]wistle, Major C. F. | Murray, John (Leeds, W.) | Wignall, James |
| Galbraith, Samuel | Newbould, A. E. | Williams, A. (Consett, Durham) |
| Gardiner, (Perth) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, J. (Gower, Glam.) |
| Glanville, Harold James | Rae, H. Norman | Winfrey, Sir Richard |
| Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Wood, Maj. Mackenzie (Aberdeen, C.) |
| Graham, W. (Edinburgh) | Rees, Captain.J. Tudor | Young, William (Perth and Kinross) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Richardson, R. (Houghton) | |
| Guest, J. (Hemsworth, York) | Roberts, F. O. (W. Bromwich) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Rodger, A. K. | T. Griffiths and Mr. Neil McLean. |
| Hallas, E. | Rose, Frank H. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Borwick, Major G. O. | Cobb, Sir Cyril |
| Ainsworth, Captain C. | Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith- | Cockerill, Brig.-General G. K. |
| Allen, Colonel William James | Bowyer, Captain G. W. E. | Coifox, Major W. P. |
| Ashley, Col. Wilfred W. | Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. | Colvin, Brig.-General R. B. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Brassey, H. L. C. | Cope, Major W. (Glamorgan) |
| Atkey, A. R. | Breese, Major C. E. | Cory, Sir James Herbert (Cardiff) |
| Bagley, Captain E. A. | Briggs, Harold | Cozens-Hardy, Hon. W. H. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Britton, G. B. | Craig, Captain Charles C. (Antrim) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Brown, Captain D. C. (Hexham) | Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Buckley, Lt.-Colonel A. | Davies, Sir D. S. (Denbigh) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Partick) | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Davies, T. (Cirencester) |
| Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick | Burdon, Col. Rowland | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington) |
| Banner, Sir J. S. Harmood- | Burn, Col. C. R. (Torquay) | Dean, Com. P. T. |
| Barnett, Major Richard W. | Campbell, J. G. D. | Dennis, W. |
| Barnston, Major H. | Campion, Colonel W. R. | Denniss, E. R. Bartley (Oldham) |
| Barrand, A. R. | Carr, W. T. | Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander H. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervasé | Casey, T. W. | Dockrell, Sir M. |
| Boll, Lt.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Doyle, N. Grattan |
| Benn, Com. Ian Hamilton (Greenwich) | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Oxford Univ.) | Duncannon, Viscount |
| Bennett, T. J. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.A. (Birm., W.) | D[...] Pre, Colonel W. B. |
| Betterton, H. B. | Cheyne, Sir Wiliam Watson | Eyres-Monsell, Commander |
| Birchall, Major.J. D. | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Falcon, Captain M. |
| Bird, Alfred | Clyde, James Avon | Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfrey |
| Blades, Sir George, R. | Coats, Sir Stuart | Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. |
| FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A. | Law, A. J. (Rochdale) | Prescott, Major W. H. |
| Fiannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Glasgow) | Pulley, Cnaries Tllornton |
| Foreman, H. | Lawis, T. A. (Pontypridd, Glam.) | Pur[...]ase, H. G. |
| Foxcroft. Captain C. | Lindsay, William Arthur | Randles, Sirr John Scurrah |
| Fraser, major Sir keith | Lioyd, George Butler | Raw, Lieut. -Colonef Dr. N |
| Gardner, E. (Berks, Windsor) | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Hunt'don) | Rees, Sir J. O. |
| Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir A. C. (Bas'gst'ke) | Lonsdale, James R. | Reid, D. D. |
| Gibbs, Colonel John Abraham | Lorden, John William | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Gilbert, James Daniel | Lort Williams, J. | Ronwick, G. |
| Gilmour, Lieut. -Colonel John | M'Laren, R. (Lanark, N.) | Richardson. Alex. (Gravesend) |
| Glyn, Major R. | M'Lean, Lt.-Col. C. W. W. (Brigg) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) |
| Goff, Sir Park | Macmaster, Donald | Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Grant, James Augustus | McNeill, Ronald (Canterbury) | Robinson. S. (Brecon and Radnor) |
| Green, J F. (Leicester) | Mallalieu, Frederick William | Rog[...]s, [...] H ailewell |
| Greer, Harry | Malone, Major P. (Tottenham, S.) | Roundell, Lt.-colonel R. F. |
| Gregory, Holman | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Samuel, A. m. (Farnham, Surrey) |
| Greig, Coionel Jamas William | Marriott, John Arthur R. | Samuel, S. (Wandsworlh, Putney) |
| Gretton, Colonel Jcha | Martin, A. E. | Sassoan, Sir Philip A. G. D. |
| Guinness, Lt.-Col. Hon. W. E.(B. St. E.) | Mason, Robert | seager, Sir William |
| Hailwood, A. | Matthews, David | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) |
| Hall, Lt.-Col. Sir Fred (Dulwich) | Meysey-Thompson, Lt.-Col. E. C. | Sprozi, Colonel Sir Alexander |
| Hambro, Angus Valdemar | Middlebrook, Sir William | Stamey, Col. Hon. G. (Preston) |
| Hamitton, Major C. G. C. (Altrincham) | Mildmay, Col. Rt. Hon. Francis B. | Stanton, charles Butt |
| Hanna, G. B. | Moles, Thomas | Steel, Major S. strang |
| Hanson, Sir Charles | Molson, Major John Elsdale | Stephenson, Colonel H. K. |
| Haslam, Lewis | Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. | Stewart, Gershom. |
| Henderson. Maj. V. L. (Tradeston, Glas) | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Strauss, Edward Anthony |
| Hennessy, Major G. | Moreing, Captain Algernon H. | Sykes, Col. Sir A. J. (Knutsford) |
| Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) | Morrison, H. (Salisbury) | Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) |
| Hickman, Brig.-General Thomas E. | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Hilder, Lieut. -Colonel F. | Mosley, Oswald | Townley, Maximilian G. |
| Hoare, Lt. -Colonel Sir Samuel J. G. | Mount, William Arthur | Tryon, Major George Clement |
| Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | Walters, Sir John Tudor |
| Hope, Harry (Stirling) | Murchison, C. K. | Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Murray, Hon. G. (St, Rollox) | Wasort, John Cathcart |
| Hops, Lieut.-Col. Sir j. (Midlothian) | Murray, William (Dumfries) | Weston, Colonel John W. |
| Hope, John Deans (Berwick) | Neal, Arthur | Wheler, Colonel Granville C. H. |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Newman, Major J, (Finchley, M'ddx.) | White, Colonel G. D. (Southport) |
| Hopkinson, Austin (Mossley) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. (Exeter) | Whitla, Sir William |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Nicholl, Com. Sir Edward | Wild, Sir Ernest Edward |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Norton-Griffiths, Lt.-Col. Sir J. | Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) |
| Hunter, Gen. Sir A. (Lancaster) | Oman, C. W. C. | Willougnby, Lt.-Col. Hon. Claud |
| Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G. | O'Neill, Capt. Hon. Robert W. H. | Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H. |
| Hurst, Major G. B. | Paimer, Major G. M. (Jarrow) | Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Hold'ness) |
| Inskip, T. W. H. | Parker, James | Wilson, Col. M. (Richmond, Yorks.) |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) | Wood, Major S. Hill- (High Peak) |
| Jesson, C. | Pearce, Sir William | Woolcock. W. J. U. |
| Jodrell, N. P. | Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Johnson, L. S. | Perring, William George | Yate, Colonel Charles Edward |
| Kerr-smiley, Major P. | Pilditch, Sir Philip | Yeo, Sir Alfred William |
| Kidd, James | Pinkham, Lieut-Colonel Charles | Younger. Sir George |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray | |
| Knight, Captain B. A. | Pownall, Lt.-Colonei Assheton | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Lord E. |
| Knights, Captain H. | Pratt, John William | Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward. |