§ (1) Paragraph (9) of the Second Schedule to the Constabulary and Police (Ireland) Act, 1883, in its application to a pension payable under Section four of that Act to the widow of a constable who has died on or after the first day of September, nineteen hundred and eighteen, or dies after the passing of this Act, shall have effect as if "twenty-six pounds" were substituted for "ten pounds."
3123§ Mr. BRADYI beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "on or after the first day of September, nineteen hundred and eighteen," and to insert instead thereof the words "previous to the passing of this Act."
This raises the general question of bringing within the ambition of the measure existing pensioners and the widows of exising pensioners. The Chief Secretary knows the views which are held very strongly on these benches and on the benches above the Gangway as to this proposal, and I hope he will see his way to accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. SHORTTI regret that I cannot see my way to accept the Amendment which is clearly part of the subject which has been discussed both on the Money Resolution and on the Second Reading. The question is not one which relates only to Irelaind, but is one which really covers the whole of the United Kingdom, and a very large number of different classes of pensioners. It involves very large interests both in this country and in Ireland, and if one claim is granted all must be granted. The cost involved would be exceedingly great, and it cannot be done in a Bill such as this. The proposal jeopardises the Bill. No doubt it deals with a number of deserving persons whose case has been pleaded, but it is quite impossible that such a proposal could be introduced in this Bill. The whole question was before the authorities and considered in connection with the English Bill, and it is impossible for me in this Bill to do something for Ireland different from that which is being done in the case of England. In this matter the Irish pensioners are being treated in exactly the same way as the English pensioners of all classes are being treated. The passing of this proposal would inevitably involve the postponement of the Bill and the subsequent Clauses until all corresponding English questions had been settled. I do not want the Bill jeopardised. It is of the greatest importance to thousands of men who are waiting for this deserved increase of pay. The other question must stand or fall with all the corresponding English interests in English Bills, and therefore I cannot accept the Amendment.
Captain CRAIGThe right hon. Gentleman does not deny the justice of the demand, and I do not think his arguments have any very great weight. He relies 3124 principally on the argument that if he accepts this Amendment the same principle would have to be applied all round. I venture to differ from him. There have been many occasions on which English individuals have received increases of pay and pensions, while similar increases have not necessarily been granted to corresponding individuals in Ireland. I do not think it is a good answer against this proposal to simply say that it would necessitate further expenditure. The position of affairs is this: A widow whose husband happened to have died on a certain date is in an infinitely better position than a widow whose husband happened to die some little time earlier. That is not fair, and if hon. Members below the Gangway push the matter to a Division I shall certainly support them.
§ Mr. HOLTI was very pleased to note the line taken by the Chief Secretary in this matter. I think when the Government makes a stand against the perpetual claim on the part of all sorts of people to put their hands in the public purse, that independent Members ought to express by word of mouth their support of the Government. Apparently people have now got the general impression that you could make everybody happy by handing over public funds to them. [An Hon. Member: "So you could!"] So you could, but only for a short time until we began to discover that the State had become bankrupt. These persons have no real claim what-even to get an increase in their pay. A pension, as I understand the matter, is not a gratuity or charitable donation, but payment for services rendered or deferred pay, and is part of the contract of service. If you increase pensions you do so not as a consideration for services to be rendered, but simply out of goodwill, and you are really making an eleemosynary donation to the person concerned. I venture to say that it is entirely wrong to revise pensions after the service is over, and I think it is very wrong indeed, having regard to the very serious position in which the nation is, to try and raid the Exchequer for everybody, especially on the eve of a General Election.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 45; Noes, 15.
3125| Division No. 94.] | AYES. | [12.44 p.m. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Ganzonl, Francis J. C. | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Anderson, G. K. (Canterbury) | Gibbs, Col. George Abraham | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. John | Newman, Sir Robert (Exeter) |
| Barnston, Major Harry | Harmood-Banner, Sir J. S. | Nicholson, Sir Chas. N. (Doncaster} |
| Barrie, C. C. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Holt, Richard Durning | Pulley, C. T. |
| Benn, Sir Arthur S. (Plymouth) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arfon) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) | Samuels, Arthur W. (Dublin U.) |
| Blair, Reginald | Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire) | Shaw, Hon. Alexander |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith- | Jodrell, Neville Paul | Shortt, Edward |
| Brace, Rt. Hon. William | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, E.) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancashire, Ince.) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | White, Col. G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Kellaway, Frederick George | Winfrey, Sir R. |
| Fell, Sir Arthur | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | |
| Fleming, Sir John (Aberdeen, S.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Sanders and Mr. Pratt. |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Maden, Sir John Henry |
| NOES. | ||
| Bentinck, Lord Henry | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hazleton, Richard | Williams, Llewelyn |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | King, Joseph | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Crooks, Rt. Hon. William | Lindsay, William Arthur | |
| Dillon, John | Mooney, John J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Boland and Mr. Boyle |
| Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir James B. | Scanlan, Thomas |
§ Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 4 (Allowances to Widows of County Inspectors or District Inspectors) ordered to stand part of the Bill.