§ Order read for resuming adjourned Debate on Question [23rd April], "That the Bill be now read the third time."
§ Question again proposed.
§ Mr. HOGGEThis is one of the small Bills which comes before the House from time to time, and which is considered in
§ may be assured that whatever benefits arise thereunder will be extended to the new trades which are brought under the Bill.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 100; Noes, 10.
2803| Division No. 34.] | AYES. | [3.54 P.m. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | France, Gerald Ashburner | Newman, John R. P. |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Gibbs, Col. George Abraham | Norton Griffiths, Sir J. |
| Archdale, Lieut. E. M. | Gilbert, J. D. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Goldstone, Frank | Partington, Oswald |
| Barnett, Captain R. W. | Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Greig, Colonel J. W. | Philipps, Maj.-Gen. Ivor (Southampton) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Pratt, J. W. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Bellairs, Commander C. W. | Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.) | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. |
| Benn, Com. Ian Hamilton | Henry, Sir Charles | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Blair, Reginald | Henry, Denis S. | Rowlands, James |
| Blake, Sir Francis Douglas | Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Bliss, Joseph | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Bowdon, Major G. R. Harland | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Boyton, James | Hinds, John | Shew, Hon. A. |
| Brace, Rt. Hon. William | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Tennant, Rt. Hon Harold John |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. | Tickler, T. G. |
| Clyde, James Avon | Jacobsen, Thomas Owen | Walters. Sir John Tudor |
| Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Wardle, George J. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Williams. Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Currie, George W. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. | Mackinder, Halford J. | Wilson-Fox, Henry |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willroughby H. | Maden, Sir John Henry | Worthington Evans, Major Sir L. |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Fell, Arthur | Meux, Hon. Sir Hedworth | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Millar, James Duncan | |
| Fleming, Valentine | Moore, William | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Fletcher, John Samuel | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | Lord Edmund Talbot and Mr. Beck. |
| NOES. | ||
| Arnold, Sydney | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Molloy. Michael |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | |
| Dillon, John | McGhee, Richard | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Hogge, James Myles | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Pringle and Mr Anderson |
| Jowett, Frederick William |
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[Mr. Hope.]
§ 4.0 P.M.
§ the smaller intervals, or rather remnants, of time which are left at the close of a long day's discussion, and which the House gives to the Minister concerned at the end of a long day because they have a liking, perhaps, for the Minister who is in charge of the particular Bill. Seeing, however, that we have had no Committee stage of this Bill at all, and seeing that everybody has avoided putting down Amendments, I feel that the House ought to appreciate what it is that we are asked to do by this Bill before we agree to the Third Reading. My hon. Friend the Comptroller of the Household (Sir E. Cornwall), who is in charge of this Bill, has been very good 2805 about it so far as he has consulted most of the interests who are concerned, but there are certain points about it yet which require some explanation, and I propose in a very few minutes of the time of the House to put the point with which I am principally concerned. The first Clause of this Bill deals with soldiers and sailors and marines who have got what is known as a disablement pension of the highest degree. The House will remember that in the award of a pension of that nature the National Health Insurance payment, which in ordinary circumstances would be 10s. for the first twenty-six weeks and 5s. for the succeeding twenty-six weeks, is included to the extent of one-half of that amount in the pension of the highest degree which is paid to that soldier or sailor suffering through that disablement. Under the old scale it used to be a 25s. weekly payment for pension, including 5s. which ought to be paid from the National Health Insurance scheme. What the House wants to remember with regard to that is that when you give a pension of that kind it is not all pension—four-fifths are pension and 5s. are National Health Insurance. On the Second Clause the point arises with which I am rather more concerned, and on which my remarks will be quite brief. If the soldier gets, instead of a pension, a gratuity which is not less than £30, a new arrangement is made with regard to National Health Insurance. Suppose a man is not entitled to a pension, but secures instead from the Minister of Pensions a gratuity of £30 and upwards to the maximum of £150, then he is not entitled to claim the insurance money which the other man gets, including his pension. The Comptroller of the Household has already assured me privately that he is prepared to see, in reply to the point I am putting, that these men will be paid by the Ministry of Pensions, in addition to the gratuity of £30 and upwards, £6 10s. representing twenty-six weeks' insurance benefit at 5s., to which they are entitled. That is not in the Bill, and that is why I am making my speech now, because I want it to be noted. If we get it in the OFFICIAL REPORT that an undertaking has been come to between the Comptroller of the Household as representing the National Health Insurance and the Minister of Pensions, whom he has consulted, we shall have it in black and white, and those reading it will know that they will give, in addition to the gratuity of £30 and upwards to £150, 2806 which is the maximum, twenty-six weeks' National Health Insurance benefit to which the man is entitled. Then I agree that the Third Beading should go through without further discussion. Perhaps the hon. Member will give that assurance, so that we can have it in black and white, and there can be no dubiety about it.
§ Sir E. CORNWALL (Comptroller of the Household)I have told my hon. Friend privately what is our intention, and he has correctly stated the case why this Clause is in the Bill. I have no doubt whatever in regard to the point. So far as I am concerned, the Clause would not have been in the Bill but for the understanding which has been come to between the National Health Insurance Commission and the Pensions Minister. There can be no justification for Clause 2 unless the man is paid in addition to the gratuity granted a lump sum of £6 10s., to which sum he is entitled as insurance benefit, and it is only with that object in view that the Clause is in the Bill. The whole point is that it is thought much better in the interests of the soldier himself that the Pensions Ministry should give the man a gratuity in a lump sum instead of a pension. He is the only man we are dealing with. It would defeat the object which the Pensions Ministry have in view if there was a weekly contribution given to the man by way of health insurance. It would equally be wrong to deprive the man of money he is entitled to from his insurance benefit. Therefore, it is proposed and intended that if the man gets his gratuity in one sum from the Pensions Ministry he should also get his 5s. insurance benefit for twenty-six weeks, representing £6 10s., in one sum, and so help to get the man back into employment more rapidly than would be the case otherwise. I hope with this assurance that my hon. Friend will be satisfied.
§ Question put, and agreed to
§ Bill read the third time, and passed.